There are some things that people generally don't talk about in church circles.
Pornography is one of them.
Yet, there are Christians who are not only ministering in that realm, they are ministering to people in the industry, and to believers caught up in its claws.
XXXChurch has been one of the more controversial, and likely misunderstood, ministries to prop up in recent years.
It started in 2002 when pastor Mike Foster was in the shower and sensed that God was telling him something. More specifically, one word: porn.
That led to a meeting with youth pastor Craig Gross over lunch, and eventually the two southern Californians partnered in starting XXXChurch.
What is XXXChurch?
From its executive summary document (available as a download here):
XXXchurch.com exists to bring awareness, accountability, openness and recovery to the church, society and individuals concerning the issues of pornography. We provide solutions through non-judgmental and creative means. XXXchurch is here to make you think, react and to decide where you stand on the issues of porn.
It exists to help people not only turn from using pornography, but also exists to witness and minister to people in the porn industry - and help them come out of that industry (and some have, like ex-pornographer Donny Pauling and ex-actresses Shelley Lueben and Chrissy Moran). Gross and others visit trade shows for the porn industry to talk to people about Jesus and pass out Bibles and speak on the topic of porn around the country. XXXChurch offers accountability software and resources to help people overcome pornography, and does other things as well.
Foster left the ministry in 2006 but has branched out on his own, while Gross continues to lead XXXChurch.
Bill Day produced a documentary on the early years of XXXChurch called Missionary Positions, which, if you click play on the video below this paragraph, you can see for yourself. It is also available for viewing, or as a download to your PC/Mac or to your iPod/PSP, on Google Mobile Video - click here.
(ADVISORY: XXXChurch says the documentary is rated R. There's no language in the movie, but some images associated with the pornography industry aren't appropriate for young children).
I realize that not everyone struggles with porn, and lots of people don't even want to think about it. I'd wager some of those people are the ones who don't want to think about it when they're not using it.
I myself came to the realization that God wanted my mind and heart to be pure before Him. That there was no room to even look at women in the way many non-Christian (and quite a few Christian) men ogle them, much less use pornography.
I am not ready to tell my personal story here, but suffice it to say that I don't approach this topic from a vacuum. I'm familar with it, sadly - I would say the tamer end of the scale - but I know enough to say that there is some really bad stuff out there. And that lust can lead you to rationalize away all kinds of things, even avoiding the hard-core stuff to enjoy the soft-core stuff because after all men like women.
Well, to borrow a phrase from XXXChurch:
Porn sucks.
Godly Christian men should run from porn and probably shouldn't even be looking at Maxim, or the Victoria's Secret website, and definitely not at Playboy and the garbage that it will lead you into if you allow it.
Guys are good at rationalizing things away. Lots of guys can excuse lust, or ogling, or porn, and is probably one reason why there's an epidemic of sexual sin in the church today.
If you don't think porn is a problem, check out the statistics on this link.
Even when you realize it is wrong and repent, you can still stumble in the area of porn, for days, months or even years. So you repent again, and keep striving towards holiness. You can be weak in that area for years and then you finally realize that it's not about you growing so strong you finally overcome it by your sheer will, but it's about you repenting and trusting Jesus to help you gain victory over it.
I cannot do overcome this in my own power, and neither can you. We need others involved. I am taking steps to connect with men at my church who can help me do this, and also am learning how to avoid or have victory over the things that can stumble me - while realizing the source of my strength is Jesus Himself, and that I need to look to Him to overcome and change.
So why am I writing this thread then?
Because I want to overcome it and help other people, men and women, young and old, to overcome it as well.
If you struggle with porn in any way, first and foremost, repent. Confess it to God, decide to turn from it, ask Him to forgive you of your sin, and decide that you are going to follow Him and allow Him to change your heart. As a good pastor friend told me, it's about sticking close to the cross. You can't whip this on your own - but Jesus can whip it. We have to go where He leads us and do what He tells us.
That friend also recommended an inductive study of Romans 7.
There are numerous resources - New Life Ministries, Pure Life Ministries, XXXChurch's list of ministries (for men and women), to name a few. If you're a pastor struggling with porn, check this link out.
Don't try to whip this by yourself. Get help - you shouldn't be doing life alone anyway, but especially when you're trying to overcome sin in your life.
Here's four things XXXChurch asks people who want to partner with them in some way to do:
1. I will be accountable to someone. Whether it is a friend, a relative, a pastor or a spouse. I realize if I try and do this on my own I'm going to jack it up.
2. I will be open and real about my own struggles knowing that the truth will lead to freedom. I am not ashamed to be human and realize that mama was right…honesty is the best policy.
3. I will talk about the dirty little secret and encourage others to be real and open about it. Let's realize that we are all in this together, right?
4. I will put safeguards in my life to keep me away from this crap. If it means I've got to get rid of the satellite dish and DSL, then I will do it.
Anyone who has been in the ministry more than 10 minutes knows that this is a huge problem and it’s a problem in the church.
I am very proud of this article and feel blessed again that BrianD is on my team.
The nature of the subject may not generate a whole lot of discussion, but Brian has provided resources here…and someone reading this will desperately need them.
In this culture it is hard to avoid, there is no support in church really for living a chase life other then you will be thrown out if you dont, and you will be made fun of if you do. Go figure that one out. Personally, other then sacramental confession, which I dont believe in, but I know they wont blabber it all over the place I dont talk about such things.
But other subjects that are not talked about at church at all is hate, I mean hate between brothers and sisters which breeds fear, which leaves the door wide open for this type of stuff.
It is the lack of community, we are to be a local family not a group of islands unto our selves that come together as long as it meets a need. It is also an issue of intimacy, we are not suppose to need any, like you said Michael anyone who has been in the ministry knows this is a big problem, they also know they best keep their mouths shut about it. Thank you for letting this be posted, we need to talk and pray for each other.
BrianD…very relevant topic. I’ve known many a Christian marriage to eventually implode because of this problem. I even had a conversation today with my son about this and how addictive it can become and how it ruins a normal relationship with your wife. We talked about fleeing temptation.
I’ll be up for another hour or so to talk or answer qustions….I wanted to highlight this ministry because I see God’s hand all over it, but I could not talk about this subject without being honest about it has impacted me in general.
Porn truly is an epidemic in the church and is one of the sickest symptoms of the wordliness that has infiltrated the church at large, imo.
Brian D dont you think it is a lack of community and individualism as much as worldliness?
brian, that is a big factor.
I would say from the standpoint of not being connected to other believers and out by yourself, you’re much more susceptible to it. I am reading a book by Craig Gross called The Dirty Little Secret that talks about this issue, and he references guys who are so addicted to this thing they have NO friends. NO FRIENDS. At all.
That isn’t a great advertisment for porn, methinks.
Isolation is a great way to keep sinning with no accountability….but the consequences always catch up to you.
this is a HUGE problem area for me. It is why I have a Filter on my internet. It isn’t perfect but it helps. Growing Up I was taught it was normal, had Playboy when I was 11, when I turned 18 I took a job in a strip club as a doorman, the n a Coke-tender (we didn’t serve alcohol) and then when I was 21 became a Bartender in a real club. Worked my way up to Manager before I left the industry.
This addiction has plagued me for my adult life. It truly is an addiction as well. The Lord grants me grace enough to get through, sometimes I stumble, but one day at a time isn’t just for Alcoholics. XXX church is awesome, and there are some former Pornstars who are running ministries as well.
God is good, and I am a filthy sinner, just get it out there before anyone else needs to say it. Also, churches seem afraid to approach this subject, yet when I have introduced it as a class in churches I taught at b4 it was a secretive if full classroom.
A couple of good prayers –
The Jesus Prayer —
“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner”
The Lord’s Prayer.
Brian — In the Lutheran tradition, we can go to a pastor for Holy Absolution. There is something very freeing about confessing our sins to another, especially those that are long-lasting and have a grip. We need to focus on God’s grace much more than our sins.
It certainly doesn’t have to be a pastor, though.
Until the Church acknowledges that each member is saint and sinner simultaneously, you won’t be seeing a lot of confession of sins, IMHO. So instead many of us just soldier on, alone and isolated, acting like we’re living a holy, victorious Christian life, above struggle. St. Paul didn’t seem to think so (see Rom. 7.)
Even sex itself is just seen as something that gratifies the self.
Lauren Winner has a great book called “Real Sex.”
Man, is this ever relevant. I know a guy who would leave church on Sunday and before he returned to Sunday night services, he would spend all that time in between at a movie house.
He said he just got desensitized to it. When I knew him, he was still prone to doing it. I don’t know if he ever got the victory over it.
Eric…wow.
Thank you for telling us about that part of your life.
I don’t know if there’s anything I can say to encourage you, because you’re in ministry and I’m not (really). But it would be cool if someone read your post and was encouraged to keep fighting the beast or get out of the bars or strip club because you were able to.
Lutheran, I like the Jesus and Lord’s Prayers - short, sweet, to the point and reminds us of who the boss is
There is something freeing in confession to another - though you don’t have to tell everybody.
This idea that you have to be perfect I think may go back to Charles Finney. I was thinking about that today. We certainly expect our ministers to be perfect or close to it, and that goes well with Finney’s perfectionistic ideals.
Trouble with that is we’re all absolute freakin’ messes, born that way and dying that way.
Jesus is our one and ONLY hope.
I have heard of Lauren Winner and need to check that book out tomorrow. Thanks for the heads up.
Laura, that’s a scary tale. He might not WANT the victory, sadly….
I guess it is more basic, I have friends at work, and use to have friends at church, i have one maybe two now. But it is so prevalent in the evangelical community is that you should not “need” people. Basically friendships are geared towards function, when they no longer function they no longer exist.
It really is sad, I have seen people’s lives ripped to shreds by this type of thinking. On the other some of us, me included, use this as an excuse to sin. Those nasty christians bla bla sin sin bla bla sin sin I think folks get the cycle.
BrianD,
Only the Lord knows that one. This is rough stuff.
But as His mercies are new every morning, I am going to go pray and go to bed. I will be praying for you in this. It was very brave to bring it up at all.
Grace and peace, brother.
brian, I think that is changing. I’ve heard a lot more talk about connecting with other people in church. That you have to connect with others to make it.
Laura, thank you for the prayers.
I considered that, reconsidered that and threeconsidered that
But I couldn’t lie about it either.
I’m up for 10 more minutes. Then it’s Bible reading and time for bed.
You know with all the things I may or think I may “suffer” I was watching a special on WW1 and just how it set up for WW2 entire people groups were wiped out in these wars. I think they were basically the same war of empire and nation state which actually was ongoing sense Nepolion or arguably from the religious wars of the 1600’s. One could even argue they started when the Roman empire fell.
People suffered horribly often for very little used as pawns in games by their leaders. Good thing God does not use us this way.
I nearly dozed off…so I need to call it a night.
Brian D,
Wow! Praise the Lord as this is exposed to His marvelous light, it cannot hide in the darkness! He is Lord over all!
Joshua Harris has written a book called “Sex is Not the Problem, Lust Is” He is so very candid and transparent in the book and takes us to the cross….
What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus! What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus! O Precious is the flow, that makes me white as snow, no other fount I know, nothing but the blood of Jesus!
He has paid the price and we are set free at the foot of the cross, it is so good to be reminded!
thank you~
I was reading a book by Dennis Prager, the Los Angeles-based radio talk show host, who talked of his father and how good a man his father was. And, when his father would go to the barber, he would sit and read Playboy magazine, right in full view of everyone. And at that young age, Dennis saw that his father was a good man who indulged in this vice on occasion, and he never thought it was a big deal.
Conversely, when I was 12 years old, my parents sent me upstairs to get a Bible in their room. And when I tugged on the Bible in their closet, a Penthouse magazine tumbled out. It was my first exposure to sex, and it was riveting and exhilirating and scary and also very problematic because, unlike Dennis, I could not reconcile that my father was a Sunday School teacher in our church and looking at this stuff.
From the age of 12 to about 19 I stewed about this issue, and it drove a wedge between my father and I, one that shaped the course of our relationship. But in retrospect, I don’t really look at him having that magazine the same way I did then. I now wish that I had said something to them and they had just explained it to me. Years later, after I had confronted them and caused a minor stir because of it, my mother took me aside and embarrassingly said that they had consulted pornography because it was a learning device for them, because nobody talked about this sort of stuff in church.
Addiction of any kind is a terrible thing, and lust can lead to some pretty grievous problems. But I fear that the animus behind some of this sentiment is a little over the edge. Not every person who looks at porn is a potential Ted Bundy. There is a long history of the Church being sadly behind the times with regard to sexuality, terribly repressive even up to the present.
So, LOL… I’d say “get a grip”… but that would be crude… (did I write that out loud..??)
dd
Good thread BrianD, this topic needs to be discussed in the proper context among believers.
One suggestion on the video link…what do you think of a “caution” type of disclaimer before viewing?
It’s great that these pastors are going out to reach people but the fact is that some images in the video are “adult” in nature. Once the realization of their faith & good work was established for me, I quit watching…don’t need to see convention footage.
And yes, I’ve stumbled with this area too.
Hi all,
I struggled with sexual sin for years. Check out this website and it’s courses. http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com
Awesome ministry
BrianD….thank you so much for your honest. It took courage to be honest and vulnerable in a large community.
This sort of thing doesn’t just affect the man, or the marriage, but also the children, as several have described last night. The consequencs of this addiction are far reaching.
You know, when my kids were little and we’d go to Chuck E Cheese, I thought, these games are training little gamblers. When I watch TV, I think, these commercials and TV shows are training future porn addicts.
Our culture is so permeated with what used to be sexual innuendo. Now, it’s in the open. The police call this behavior, practiced by sexual predators, grooming. We, as a society, are being groomed. Groomed for what and by whom?
‘Addiction of any kind is a terrible thing, and lust can lead to some pretty grievous problems. But I fear that the animus behind some of this sentiment is a little over the edge. Not every person who looks at porn is a potential Ted Bundy. There is a long history of the Church being sadly behind the times with regard to sexuality, terribly repressive even up to the present.’
DD —
I agree. People who are doing ‘brain research’ are finding that addiction has a physical base in certain parts of the brain. Doesn’t mean that we’re not responsible for our choices — certainly, we are — but we need to be careful to tease out the distinctions here. I’ve seen too many Christians traumatized and damaged by an unhealthy focus on their sins in this area and go into weird spiritual trips, casting out demons, etc.
The most important thing is not that you’ve fallen, but that you focus on and receive Christ’s forgiveness. Cling to it, if need be! And in a fallen world, often, need be.
cactus flower, that’s why I got that particular book by Josh Harris…he talks about our need for God to change our hearts as the FIRST line of defense.
TDoS, what exactly should I say as far as a ‘caution’ line? (I just now woke up)
dd,
In response to your “get a grip” statement (which I think is directed at an unwillingness of the church for frank & open discussion), I would like to remind us of the new nature of this industry.
Metaphorically speaking, we had to go out & purchase the magazines when we were growing up, eventually you could have them mailed to your house. Now, all physical barriers have been removed from this entering homes.
For all intents & purposes, my 9 yr old son or daughter can “walk” into a strip club without any real “security” gaurd to check ID.
You can remove Sodom & Gamorah from the world…
So yes, churches need to get a grip, but the reality is that it’s a mighty daunting task. Thankfully, mighty is our LORD.
BTW, the video is probably not going to be for everyone…I had some problems myself with the very brief shots of the porn models TDoS is referring to, but Michael and I thought the video overall was good enough to show to the PP readership.
BrianD,
Just a reminder, something generic like;
“Caution, the images in this video deal with an explicit subject, mature audience viewing recommended.”
It’s just a suggestion bro, some of the things caught me off gaurd.
dd,
That your parents had to consult Penthouse, because they weren’t able to consult good, informative, non-pornographic resources from your church or its denomination says it all.
TDoS, thanks. Sometimes I need a little help on stuff like this while I’m waking up
Good Morning BrianD…
I have a comment in moderation (I guess I used the p word)–can you take a look and see if its appropriate to post? Thanks
They don’t want to deal with porn because it’s “icky”….it’s that old sin hierarchy. Too bad. So men and women suffer secretly. We talk about struggles with weight, anger, stuff like that but folk with a porn addiction suffer often in silence. BrianD, good on ya for posting this. While I don’t struggle with this one, I often park my car in a remote spot of a parking lot because it’s a single passenger, four door model….meaning, I’m a slob. It’s every bit as damaging to others in the family as any other addiction, but often the one most laughed at. No one avoids me because I have too much crap, or because my house is a mess. But those who admit to a porn addiction take a much greater risk.
Check now, Linnea
Something else for everybody (while I figure out a way to tell you all that the documentary is rated R)…
Use of the word ‘porn’ will get you thrown in moderation, because the types of posts we get with that word in it (almost always spam) aren’t fit for viewing. So, if you find an alternative way to say porn, you should do that. I don’t want to discourage you from commenting on this topic, just be aware of how our spam filters are set up.
TDoS,
You bring up a good point … a very scary point actually. No longer do people have to risk someone seeing them purchasing something they shouldn’t … or finding it hidden in their room … or entering some place they shouldn’t … it’s now just a click away in the privacy of our own homes. It’s easy and seems to have little if any risk. This problem has always been here but now it is offered so freely and without any real upfront cost or risk. This is very scary and needs to be addressed aggressively by Christians or … yikes … I don’t even want to think about how horribly wide spread & huge the damage will be.
Thanks BrianD for dealing with this important issue.
I am very sorry for not adding a disclaimer to the video.
linnea, thanks for your encouragement!
Society grooming future porn addicts…NOOOOOO! Now where would you get that idea?
Seriously…
The stats XXXChurch showed indicate that kids are getting exposed to this garbage as early as fifth grade. That’s outrageous.
dd, I don’t want to imply every one exposed to p0rn is a potential Ted Bundy, either. I just want to imply that p*rn is a big, freakin’ mess that leaves you empty and is full of lies straight from the pit
This subject is called sexual addiction. Here is a good site:
http://www.sexaddictionhelp.com/
There should be 12-step groups in many cities to deal with it, and there are also counselors.
Hope that helps.
BrianD,
You have hit the nail square on the head, this a huge issue in our society(including the church). I pray that anyone who struggles in this area will have enough courage to use sometng like X3 to ensure they are held accountable. Again I can’t say how much I am blessed to see this come about
Overcomer, thank you! Is that a secular resource?
Hey Bluefreak.
If we can help anybody involved in that sin by pointing them to good resources to help them avoid it, that would be great.
kat, I don’t think that having a messy car or messy house (believe me, I should know
) is sinful or should be a problem for anybody.
But you’re correct about the hierarchy of sins that the church is willing to discuss.
Some sins people will NOT discuss openly (see dd’s post). Maybe that’s another reason why we have this problem in the church
The devil does some of his worst work in the darkness, where no one can see him overtly.
Maybe that’s another reason we have a prn problem in the church, too.
… fifth grade!!! … yikes!! How old is the average fifth grader … about 10??? That is beyond scary …
During 6th grade, our oldest son went to a prep school…the academics were good, but too late we learned that they did not believe in putting a filter on their computers and wanted to train the kids in “self-control”.
Well, as you can imagine, 6th grade boys with free access to the internet found prn quickly. Our pediatrician’s son, a classmate, also exposed him to it when he spent the night at their house, for goodness sake.
As a mother of boys, it’s getting tough to protect my sons from this. My husband, who does not struggle with this, has told them to run quickly away from the exposure because he knows how addicting it can be (several friends struggle with this). Do they? I don’t know–it’s everywhere and short of living like the Amish, I’m not sure how to deal with the exposure.
Nancy, XXXChurch says the average age a kid is exposed to p0rn on the internet is 11. 11. I’m sure some kids younger than that are seeing it.
We recently found we did not have the firewalls up on our systems. How did we know? We thought our oldest was looking at hardcore p*rn. I mean the worst. I looked at each site, to see what (I thought) she was looking at. Just a click away and all of our kids could have seen stuff you would have not believed. (I think it ended up being stuff that piggy backed into out computers through manga and cartoon sites, of all things) But what I wanted to say, was that as I looked at these sites, I felt so sad for these people. So many faces with the same look on them, blank faces, or pretend joy, or look what fun we are having; real, true emotion was just gone, gone, gone. Empty shells. Made me pray for them-
I also noticed that most of them had tattoos. Our oldest daughter keeps talking about how she is going to get a tattoo. I started to wonder if that is part of the breakdown of ones personal standards (for want of a better way to express it), for those inclined anyway. You start to mark yourself up, then pierce yourself, then give the most private parts of yourself away in front of a camera. Like their bodies are just playthings. I know, not everyone who gets a tatoo travels that highway, dont flame me, but it sure made a connection in my mind, looking at those men and women.
Our daughter is not getting a tattoo anytime soon…
What do you think about tattoos and p*rn? Does anyone else understand what I am (poorly) trying to say?
It’s good that these things are discussed openly, as it seems in the Bible that such topics aren’t avoided in discussion. Anyone that will address this huge issue is helping in an area that is treated by others mostly as some kind of leperous taboo, and that attitude in the church doesn’t help those believers at all, to escape the bondage.
I think XXXChurch has come under fire from some groups (like the slice of laodicea group) that were offended by the giant college-campus phallus or the “God kills a kitten” thing, as not really helping the problem in the way Paul the apostle would have addressed it. I’m really happy as a believer that the problem overall is being addressed but sometimes the methodology also needs discussion. Sometimes I wish I could just hear Jesus say, yes, I like the way they’re ministering about this, or no, I don’t like it. I guess faith again must stand in knowing that God uses everything for the good of His purposes and people.
Mrs TDoS, lots of people have tattoos who wouldn’t use porn, or don’t get them because of pornography.
That said, it’s no shock that it ‘piggybacked’ onto your PC from a manga or cartoon site…I know very, very little about that particular sort of thing, but XXXChurch (there’s that site again) had this enlightening statistic:
Children’s characters linked to thousands of porn links 26 (including Pokeman and Action Man)
slice of laocedia criticized everyone and everything except for John MacArthur, it seems, and I’m not sure even he is safe from their wrath
WHat did you think about the ‘God kills a kitten’ thing? I thought it was a kids thing at first, then saw what it was they were discussing
Then once I remembered that they were discussing another subject the church seems to avoid (masturbation), I was glad they were addressing that issue, too.
BrianD, I think that slice of laodicea has some valid points on some things but then throws their credibility completely overboard by going way too far on other things. Masturbation should be talked about in some ways, it seems, yet it isn’t in the Bible anywhere. Usually some misinterpret the story of Onan as having something to do with it (it doesn’t), or they bulk it together with general lusting after another.
I’m not entirely convinced that it is sin in itself, so that for me would be something from XXXChurch that isn’t helping, if it’s not always a sinful act under every circumstance.
hmmf, I don’t want to put anyone under unnecessary condemnation…but I think masturbation is something that should be avoided. It’s not something you do when you want to plant corn, or hit massive home runs like Barry Bonds, or go arguing with atheists
One problem I’ve seen with confession, though, was that something told in confidence, even to a pastor, is rarely kept in confidence. I know too many people burned by their pastor of all people, that they would NEVER admit to such sin to any pastor.
BrianD, I understand your point, however consider this: in our “modern” world, we have our kids growing up, going through 12 years of manditory school, they graduate, they usually go to college (4 year program, 5 year program?), they might do post-graduate work, they get a job/career and start saving, planning, working. Marriage and child-bearing are pushed off to sometimes the late 20’s or 30’s.
As the Bible said, in the last days doctrines of demons would teach forbidding to marry. I think the above circumstances certainly are teaching forbidding to marry in a way, since not very long ago many not married by 21 were considered old maids (this from the mouth of my employer’s mother).
Now we have people “forced” by society to push it off until far into their adulthood, with reasoning like “you have the rest of your life!” and “can you afford to have children?”. It’s a strange concept because in the end, it is the worship of mammon over the worship of God, and the result is, I believe, turning to pornography for the release that would normally be handled in marriage.
So that’s why I think there’s a deeper root to the problem than was is addressed on sites like XXXChurch. We’re in a “modern” world that is contrary to what God created us to be, in my opinion.
Looks like I’m in moderation for, what I’m not sure, I didn’t use any bad words
BrianD, can you set free my post? Thanks.
A word about methodology…
If someone isn’t doing anything to address an issue on their own I don’t want to hear a bunch of criticism about those who are.
I am so sick of that routine I could scream.
any post with the word porn or pornography is caught by our spam filter.
I agree with Hmmf that “Slice” really can take stuff too far, but I do think they add value because the other side can go too far as well.
Brian D, great post, I watched the video. Funny how Pat Robertson speaks for God so boldly. Of course God speaks to him all the time. In fact he told him that there would be a Major terrorists attack in the US in ‘07. We’ll have to wait that out, if it doesn’t happen can we stone him like they did in the Old Testament? Never mind we are under Grace, we will just not listen to him in the future…at least I hope.
I LOVE this blog so much good info.
hmmf, I see your point but I would respond by saying that this entire world is tainted by sin, and that if everyone lived a rural lifestyle we would still deal with a sinful world.
Paul said to be in the world but not of it. As best I know his admonition to believers hasn’t expired.
So how do we deal with pornography in this modern world we live in? Let’s not get off topic here.
Michael,
You mean that the KJV, Hymnals and hiding from the “Evil” world doesn’t solve all the World’s problems?
BrianD, the way I would deal with pornography in the modern world would be to tell people to reject the modern world, and get married much younger and make it a priority over college and career.
Michael, I am questioning methodology because I have some experience in ministering in these areas. I’m not better or worse than you or XXXChurch, but I’m not entirely without any experience in this area of ministry.
I think Everstudy made a good point in his(?) 8:08 post.
Some folks have no one to keep them accountable, and those who have been burned by their pastor don’t want to take that chance again.
Since accountablity is part and parcel with this issue, perhaps some ideas about how we do this.
Good post BrianD.
Thank you for the kind words, Paps.
“Since accountablity is part and parcel with this issue, perhaps some ideas about how we do this.”
I’m not a pastor….we have plenty of them though here smarter than me
I remember going to Promise Keepers and they were talking about accountability…I tried that with a couple of guys but there was no real friendship there to where you could build the necessary trust to make it work.
Good discussion - this is something that definitely needs to be addressed by the church. Thanks BrianD for bringing up an issue most people don’t want to talk about.
With all due respect to dd, if a person’s response to the problem of prn is “get a grip,” then they haven’t a clue how detrimental it is to a person & how addictive it is (on the level of crack cocaine, if I remember correctly.) I fully agree that our Christian circles have not done a good job addressing healthy & God-ordained s_x, but Penthouse & the ilk definitely isn’t the answer.
I would add - please pray for the guys over at XXX Church. That is definitely a ministry I could never do - and I don’t know how (apart from the Holy Spirit) they can be around that stuff so much & not be affected. I’m not saying they don’t have an effective ministry - simply that they need our prayers for God’s protection & holiness.
Everstudy,
I find that really sad — that a pastor would ever reveal anything to someone other than the person he met with!!
In the Lutheran tradition, at least in our denom, the pastor basically takes a vow not to reveal anything, under any circumstances, said to him in private confession.
How do we get accountability is a very good question. If I had this addiction, which by the grace of God I don’t, church leadership would be the last place I would go for help. I think it would need to be with some sort of anonymous support group dedicated to dealing with this issue.
I got a devotional via e-mail this week. A fourth of the page was an ad for Victoria’s Secret with a scantily dressed hottie in her bra and undies. Some days you just can’t win!
Erunner,
Can you post that for us?
1st of all - for a pastor to reveal anything told to him in confidence is despicable…no matter what the tradition is.
2nd - how sad is it that as the body of Christ who have all acknowledged their sin (by definition) we cannot feel comfortable confessing our sins to one another? I’m not pointing fingers here…I’m in the same boat. Were I looking for someone to be accountable with, the last place I would look is with someone in my church - and I’m the pastor.
I praise the Lord for my wife, who I stay accountable to. I would recommend every married man do the same.
Everstudy & Lib,
I hear you on not talking to church leadership about this issue … or other issues as well. It can and has been used against people. Sadly what is discussed with a pastor does not always stay with a pastor. I know that first hand … not on this subject but other personal stuff … and wow was it twisted. It’s very sad and extremely upsetting. Sometimes those that we should be able to trust the most … turn out to be the least trust worthy.
Ok, here’s an analogy (because I think of everything in cellular terms
)
Let’s say exposure to prn is somewhat akin to being exposed to a virus. Now, of course, we have to ability to inoculate (some of the live or dead virus shot into our system so that our natural immune resistance recognizes it in the future and attacks it the minute it comes through the door).
I think that is the way some people deal with this and other sexual addictions…let the kids have a little so they don’t think it’s a big deal later. What we do see, however, is that viruses mutate; bacteria mutates and “gets around” the antibiotic.
My point is that inoculation may thwart the effect initially, but that sin (ie viruses and bacteria) always finds a way.
In past years, viruses were dealt with by isolating the incubator (the sick person). Well, that helps the spread of the disease, but the sick person has no remedy.
So what’s the answer once one’s been exposed? There is no simple answer. Of course, Jesus is the answer, but most Christians struggling with something would do better if someone took them by the tow line and helped them navigate the waters.
BrianD…perhaps God is calling you into this ministry, too. Rough waters, but there’s got to be a safe harbor somewhere.
Erunner -
That’s the very reason I stopped using a hotmail account as the primary church account. Every time I opened it, I saw another banner for Victoria’s Secret, or a dating service, etc. Not exactly the most edifying thing!
Doulos,
Are you saying that every married man should stay accountable to your wife?
Lib - :LOL: ROTFL
NO! They better not!
Liberated,
Doulos, This happened with me via my aol account.
Porn is indeed ubiquitous. Downright frightening. They say that the two groups that best exploit new technologies are always the evangelicals (the spreading of the Gospel) and pornographers (the spreading of the smut).
And how many times have you been surfing for something and all of a sudden you are on some site that if you click on it you land knee deep in it.
The gameplan has changed for parents, and I cannot imagine the nightmares this causes. Looking at this stuff immediately robs children of their innocence, and that is never a good thing.
On the other hand, there needs to be some common sense applied. I was reading WORLD magazine and a report of some pastor’s wife who caught her husband looking at pornography… so she “exposed” him to the congregation as a “total fraud and a hypocrite.” He not only lost his job, but she divorced him.
I think each person brings a different set of parameters to this issue. Do any of you know xian couples who use porn in their sex lives? I would suggest that a multi-billion dollar industry suggests that it isn’t just pagans that use the stuff. And they don’t seem to see anything wrong with it. And then there are situations where people are just plain addicted to it, and it becomes wholly unnatural and unhealthy and spills over into poor behavior.
One guy I talked to who semi-justified it one night as we were discussing all of this (and I say semi-justified because he knew he was full of it, and was doing it with a smirk) but he still brought up a great point that I never have been able to adequately answer. What about the Song of Songs? In its day, it must have been extremely controversial. Might even have been considered pornography of its time.
Never had an answer for that one.
dd
E - we just can’t get away from it, can we? It’s all over CNN, FOX, as well.
AOhelL you say?
Getting rid of AOhelL was not easy, especially when the customer service representative kept bargaining down the price…but it was one of the better decisions I’ve made in regards to the internet.
It wasn’t good for me to be there, I’ll put it like that…and this weblog, specifically the fellowship I was getting here, helped me take the final step to get rid of America Online once and for all.
Gmail is a good account to use, if you’re looking for something free of spam and inappropriate advertising. Your cable company or DSL provider may also provide an email service that is free of ads like ERunner ran into.
Lutheran Ex CC,
It was well known in my former CC that ANYTHING said to the senior pastor was shared with the rest of the pastoral staff.
I once had a friend share some stuff with me, and I advised him to talk to the pastor to get more help/advice than I could give. Next thing he knows is that many people now knew his problem, and he blamed me at first.
It was that the pastor told the ass. pastors who told their wives who brought it up as a “prayer request” for my friends wife… my buddy still won’t go to church.
But the question is still, how do we cultivate a culture where community really happens in the church where men (like myself) can confess and get the accountability and encouragement that is needed?
“I think that is the way some people deal with this and other sexual addictions…let the kids have a little so they don’t think it’s a big deal later. What we do see, however, is that viruses mutate; bacteria mutates and “gets around†the antibiotic.
My point is that inoculation may thwart the effect initially, but that sin (ie viruses and bacteria) always finds a way.”
Yeah, I never saw myself looking at hardcore porn either. At one time I thought the SI swimsuit issue was fine. Now I know better.
You know how they say marijuana is the ‘gateway’ to harder and more addictive drugs?
A little bit of porn is the gateway to a lot of porn.
Maxim and SI and even the underwear models in the JCPenney catalog can be the gateway to Playboy..which leads to Penthouse, and Hustler, and worse.
Fortunately I never really got into the hardcore garbage…but it’s all sin. Hence, my determination to stay away from it altogether, and deal with sex and sexuality and women in a Christ-like manner.
“So what’s the answer once one’s been exposed? There is no simple answer. Of course, Jesus is the answer, but most Christians struggling with something would do better if someone took them by the tow line and helped them navigate the waters.”
What I am learning is you can’t do this alone. You need to walk this out in tandem with other believers. God will lead you if you let Him in this area.
“BrianD…perhaps God is calling you into this ministry, too. Rough waters, but there’s got to be a safe harbor somewhere.”
I have thought since I got saved that He wanted me in the ministry somewhere…but here? Really?
I have to admit I’m suspicious of a “ministry to pornographers.” Seems like it might attract the wrong people. Wasn’t Haggard known for ministering to men in gay bars?
I don’t want to besmirch all those involved, I just wonder how they filter the bad ones out, when even spouses can have a tough time. Besides, I used to minister to incarcerated teen girls, myself.
Buster, I wonder how those guys do it too…it seems like those men and women have to be called to go to the porn shows. I heard Craig Gross talk about this on a podcast: they’re suspicious of people who are enthusiastic about going to the porn show. They generally stick to their booth, and when they do venture out they keep their eyes to the floor and if they see something inappropriate, they ‘bounce’ their eyes. Craig Gross also said himself he doesn’t have a real history with porn (though he saw it as a kid) and wasn’t looking to get into that ministry - he was a youth pastor when he and Mike Foster started it in 2002. Gross said if you struggle with porn, then ministering in porn shows is not for you.
I think myself XXXChurch is legit, and their leaders are the real deal.
BrianD,
Ah … you are in ministry somewhere … here. And by here … I mean here on this blog. Not to say God won’t use you in other areas as well. You may know that already … and others may also have pointed it out … but just wanted to make sure you knew … really sunk in … that what you do here is ministry … real ministry.
Now just make sure it doesn’t go to your head.
Nancy, thank you. That is not the first time I have heard that, by the way.
I guess it’s because I haven’t been always very faithful to God, and also because of bad choices I’ve made, that I wasn’t qualified for ministry.
This is why I want to get a grip on this issue and others in my life…so I don’t disqualify myself.
I haven’t really thought of this as a ministry, especially when my emotions get the best of me and I have confrontations with posters that should never have happened (I’m thinking at those times if God’s using ME, this must be the Wild West or some free for all).
I’ve always thought of me just being faithful and helping Michael out, and encouraging other posters here as I can.
Huh. Maybe I am in the ministry, crap and all.
BrianD…my experience is this…what I struggle in, and eventually overcome, is precisely where God has me minister. Why? Because I can relate to the folks who are struggling.
Now, I don’t want you to think I’m a nut case (though some of you have already come to that conclusion), but my husband says that people with mental issues are strangely attracted to me. I don’t know if it’s because I am kind to them or they sense something in me (like that I’ve struggled with depression), but they find me. At first I ran the other way, now, I’m starting to realize that God is drawing these people to me and that as He helps me develop appropriate boundaries, I am able to minister to them better while keeping myself sane.
Just a thought…
‘But the question is still, how do we cultivate a culture where community really happens in the church where men (like myself) can confess and get the accountability and encouragement that is needed?’
Ever,
Great question. Wish I had some decent answers!
As I said, pastoral confession can be a great balm. But not if it’s not private!! For Pete’s sake. LOL
What about some kind of men’s group where you can be accountable to each other?
I’m not sure how realistic it is to think everyone in your church will want to talk about this issue — I’m not saying that’s what you’re saying.
I do think theology plays a role — does your church expect everyone to ‘walk in victory’ at all times? If so, be prepared to play games about how well you’re doing with Jesus.
Does your leadership take the approach that ‘everything’s great — problems, what problems’?
I’ve seen that mentality cause all sorts of problems when trouble occurs — and it will.
Gotta run…see all you PP’rs later!
dd
the story about the pastor and his wife is sad. Porn is something that many men need to stuggle with their whole lives, esp those exposed at a young age like I was. My wife has flat out said if I ever catch you doing that I WILL divorce you. Does that stance ever allow me to me open with her in that area? She see the adultery thing as the only out to marriage and has espressed her willingness to exercise it if I don’t comply. She is so wonderful in so many ways but I think that stance is a mistake on her part.
BrianD,
Keep up the attitude of trying to live up to the honor … not trying to earn it or ever thinking you deserve it … but truly & humbly looking to God for the ability to serve … and all will be well. Just my thoughts …
No maybe about it.
Thank you Nancy.
Brian D~
Haven’t read through the comments,
Out of shock to this whole article, wanted to see what the crux of it was, so I’m watching the video. Quite amazing ministry and how it’s come together…
One of the wives, describe how people have questioned her concern for her husband going to minister at pn shows… then, I got the biggest laugh… she said, “I’m not stupid, I’m not going to let my husband go to Las Vegas alone to a pn convention… who do you think is in that Rabbit Costume?†Ohhhhh, so that’s why they have a mascot!?!
It’s a sick industry to be sure,
But the one thing that cant be denied,
At a billion dollar a year, it impacts many, many lives
It’s evidently a stronghold that needs to be addressed and torn down in the lives of many,
And if God has equipped and called these guys to do so, may they be blessed in aid to breaking the bonds of the oppressed!
Thanks sis.
They had their wives wear that Rex the Rabbit convention because they didn’t want to be at that show by themselves…and it was a great way for their wives to be with them and keep an eye on them
The women were only allowed in costumes???
Buster,
16:45 into the video, they talk about being in the ‘bunny’ suit (Rex the Rabbit)
The wives decided to take shifts wearing the rabbit suit, to keep their husbands from being on the floor by themselves.
Resources:
Covenant Eyes http://www.covenanteyes.com/ we have used it in every mens group i have taught. It does cost money and the XXXchurch one is free I think. It wont block anything but sends a detailed report to your accountability partners as well sending an email to them if you try to disable it or remove it. Cost is 5.95 a month
“Every mans battle” http://emb.newlife.com/ An awesome book that not only lays the groundwork spiritualy, using scripture to show what God requires, but gives real life ways of keeping your covenant with your wife and your God.
These are the two I use no matter what, the tried and true. New stuff comes out all the time, but these are effective tools. And Covenant eyes makes it so you are accontable to each other, not the Pastor necessarily but still you have a partner you are accountable to.
But the question is still, how do we cultivate a culture where community really happens in the church where men (like myself) can confess and get the accountability and encouragement that is needed?
__________________
Never admit this to people you work with. Find someone else outside your circle of influence.
THe competitive nature of ministry situations makes insecure people exploit your weaknesses.
dd
If ministry has become competitive, then they’re something terribly wrong with the so-called ministry.
Accountability, confession and encouragement happen naturally in home churches.
Attempts to build accountability without good relationships to build on leads to deceit.
Holiness and discipline cannot be forced on a person, nor can they force it on themselves through others.
There is power in the Resurrection whereby we can control our thoughts and actions.
Not even crack has power over a dead man.
I made some comments earlier about Maxim and SI’s swimsuit issue that I don’t want to be misunderstood.
I don’t want to lift either up as virtuous. Indeed, they’re basically porn with clothes on. So is Victoria’s Secret. Of course, your mind has a lot to do with it as well.
It’s pseudo-porn that can lead to Playboy, that can lead to Penthouse, and that can lead to an unholy mess in your life that might take years to clean up.
BrianD,
I don’t think anyone misunderstood you. This has been one very convicting day on this blog and that is a good thing, I think.
About that mess, though: after my ex-husband left, I went through his things and boy howdy… did I ever get a shock. He had been hiding magazines and video tapes like crazy. Trust me; it took years to clean up my part of that mess and from what I can see, he may still be there.
It’s as deadly as an intruder in your house.
Laura, it’s been a pretty rough day, and a convicting day, I agree.
I wrote what I wrote in response to a post on another blog that kindly discussed this thread and the issues I tried to raise with it. That poster thought I was complimentary of Maxim and SI’s swimsuit issue, which I wasn’t.
Brian D,
This is an excellent thread. I applaud you for doing it.
UGG Brian, you make me break my vow of silence. I was not saying you were complimentary of it, but that you had mentioned them. I was using it as an example, not saying you were in favor of that or that you implied such. DOOOOD, we are too cool for that kind of crap. i would have confronted you on it if that was my intention. I hope if anything I have proven I am not afraid to be open and honest about stuff.
LFT,
Thanks for the compliments.
I wrote it somewhat for myself, and for others who might need the help, and also because I like XXXChurch.
Paps, Michael, Buster and Dusty have some great threads as well and I don’t want to detract from them. I’d like to keep the conversation going here, but more so I’d like this thread to help someone who needs the help.
I wasn’t gonna name names…but I saw BlueFreak’s thread and I must have misunderstood your post over there. Maybe SI and Maxim can help you down the road to purity…but only if you read them for the articles
Eric, just so WE’RE not feuding….I understand where you are coming from now, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Buster,
I wish you were right, but I have found it to be otherwise. I am sure there are situations where you can find people who can handle situations of candor and trust. And a friend like that, worth more than gold.
Jeff,
I think many women find it a weird competition that they just don’t understand. And contemporary evangelical culture’s general nervousness about sexuality makes this subject rife for extremism.
I was raised in a strict holiness movement, and find much of it simply nonsense now. In the Old Testament, just the laws about sex suggest that God isn’t a prude like we seem to be. That being said, I don’t wish to make light of the problems that hurt so many people because they get caught up in this sin.
Common sense is always such a necessary guideline.
ciao,
dd
Nah doo, I said you had mentioned Maxim and SI then i said heck even TV Guide is no good half the time anymore. I didn’t mean to give the impression you were saying they are ok, if that is what happened and how it came across I sincerly apologize.
And anytime something like that comes up feel free to email me at Eric@matthew78.org or just post my name. Im open and willing to discuss anything I say. And if I give the wrong impression I certainly want to clear it up as soon as it comes to my intention.
I am a firm believer in confronting people about things, Jesus didn’t sneak around the back He went straight to the source and I sincerly hope we will also. If we dont know we have ofended how can we make amends eh? love ya bro, in a non-flirtatious heterosexual way
Eric, if you stop flirting with me we’ll call it even
er, I mean
It wasn’t one of THOSE kinda winks….
…methinks I should stop before I stir up another storm around these parts!
I’m ALWAYS watching
which is why I clarified what I said before
Methinks the church lady would want me to get my rest…and so I shall. Good night all!
Church Lady,
So are many others!
Brian D,
Good night….
The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
keeping watch on the evil and the
good. (Prov. 15:3 ESV)
A comforting thought for us kiddos of the King!
Sweet dreams all!
You know there is another subject that cant be brought up at church but often causes violent at least verbal reactions is the subject of Origins. Now granted most, if not all, of science is totally controlled by Satan, like most other aspects of the world. At least thats what I get told when I ask these questions, which I dont do much. But origins seems to be central to the Christian faith.
I was working on Model development for Solar Energy where the effects of the weather, the type of solar cells, placement, amount of power draw, cost, dependability, type and durability of Batery life during a cycle etc are correlated. These models are quite accurate and dependable, basically these type of models determen pretty much our entire culture, communication systems, the oporation of the internet, where our power is sent, water, etc. Now granted modeling immediatly becomes unreliable when we apply them to origins, I dont know why but they do.
The Devil decieves us and this “science” becomes false when it crosses the line. So I was wondering while looking at predictive models of planetary accreation which has mounds of evidence that cannot easlily be refuted, but obviosly cant be true makes me wonder. You know everytime I watch a science show or work on a predictive model I think Wow God you really are a Wonder. I dont know why that makes me an apostate but when I have brought these questions up in the faith community it has. Just a thought.
brian, because it’s you I’m leaving your post here…but I want discussion here by everyone to be on the topic of the thread.
I am a little surprised that more people didn’t come on to denounce the topic of the thread or denounce churches dealing with pornography.
I wonder if some of them got it out of their system on the Steven Furtick thread?
If anyone from XXXChurch sees this, feel free to comment! You might see me dealing with some of the other drama though on the other board
BrianD…dealing with this topic is critical to making families healthy, whether it is men dealing with this addiction or moms trying to help sons remain pure so they can have a real relationship with a godly woman some day.
BrianD,
It must be God’s timing on this thread. We’ve all been so saturated with our “visual” world that maybe we’re mature enough right now to have a good & honest scriptural discussion.
A few weeks agao when we XXXchurch was originally posted, I was a little taken aback. My attitude has changed significantly.
That’s my thinking too, TDoS. If I had put this thread up at that time….or even the infamous ’sex’ thread from a few weeks back….all of the discussion would have gotten squashed by a few posters who were offended by the discussion of sex and seemed to have their own viewpoints they wanted to dominate the discussion.
I commend you men for your courage to talk about your struggle in this area and your desire for purity. I will keep you covered in prayer. God bless you.
Speaking of LFT, I have a warning for her about the sight she is promoting on her moniker. Please LFT if you are viewing E-mail (beatitudes9@yahoo.com) me or let me E-mail you…
oops my new moniker should read “Amazing Grace” not mazing
BrianD, responding to your post from WAYYYY early yesterday. Compulsive cluttering can be just as grievous a sin if it hurts someone else and/or affects their life profoundly. THIS is why I need to correct the problem. My degree of it qualifies me for a 12 step program. It’s embarrassing at 50+ to have to ask how to be organized, but I have swallowed my pride and sought help. There IS hope for all of us. Two guy friends of mine are members of sexual compulsives anonymous so I’ve seen the pain of porn/sexual addiction up fairly close. All of you who struggle with this are in my prayers.
I wonder why there’s not a ministry for women who read Cosmopolitan???
And I can’t believe that both LFT & OH Member have linked their names to sites with scantily-clad women!
They have NOT, Buster
XXXChurch does have resources for women who struggle with pornography…
Guess I need to change sites. Which one do you suggest?
http://www.xxxchurch.com
Why is my moniker promoting anything? I never requested that it should. How do I change it?
Where you type in your post you will see a place to put your name, email address and a place if you have a website you want to promote. Instead of it saying http://none leave it completely blank.
Thank you Brian D. I did it….hope it works.
I’m not offended by the links. I was just pointing out har hard it is to shield our eyes.
Seriously, I do need to get in touch with
LFT because I know she uses the product that is shown on her moniker and I need to discuss it with her ASAP.
I wonder how many Christian women do read Cosmo and the like?
They promote ideas regarding relationships just are just as damaging as men’s magazines. And they feature scantily clad models of both sexes. But we don’t hear of this depicted as an addiction.
And what about Martha Stewart?! Now there’s an addiction…
When I am in stores, and see magazines that might make a man stumble or a child wonder, I turn them around or slip them behind another magazine. I teach others to drop their eyes to the ground so they will not be lured into taking their eyes off “The Holy Goal”. I remind young ladies that if they are drawing men’s eyes onto themselves rather than the Lord, they are not displaying a genuine love for the brothers and are adding fuel to the fire of hell for those who do not know Him yet. And if I know someone who is trapped, I go to God and beg. There is no television watching in our house and severe editing and conscientious selecting of any material that passes our door. Jesus is a permenant member of our household and we do as little to offend Him as possible. If somone is tempted in this area,do away with it.
I can’t get no respect….
After my shower I decide to check myself out in a full length mirror and commented to Mrs. Erunner…
“I feel horrible, I look fat, ugly and out of shape.
Pay me a compliment.”
Mrs. Erunner smiles and says…….
“Your eyesight’s damn near perfect.”
When my mom moved in with me, I hadn’t seen a soap opera in decades.
She was addicted to soaps since they started in the 50’s I guess.
I was astounded at the nudity and sex scenes they are showing now.
E,
A few more like that & you’ll have to stand in for “Sheke Fide” while he’s out.
Too funny!
I have to get some errands run…
An interesting post…
“A few weeks back, Don Golden said to me (Craig Gross), “All you can do with Ron (Jeremy) is keep inviting him into your world.†He was talking about the great commission when he said he thought it was less about preaching to people and just calling people to a confession, and more about inviting the lost into your world and sharing your friends, family, beliefs with them overtime. That gave me a new outlook. That excited me when he said that, because Ron is open to experiencing my world. He has met my family, my friends, pastors of mine, and now as he invites me into his world, the question is what is my response?
How far do you go? Is it a give and take relationship with the lost, is it a trade for trade arrangement. I will go to Hooters with you, if you go to church with me? I don’t know. I just come back to anything short of sin. Ron didn’t invite me to dinner to try and drag me down or trip up my testimony. He invited me to dinner at one of his favorite restaurants just like I have done with him in. Is there a line? Sure. But dinner at Hooters didn’t cross it for me.
The question we kept answering at Hooters? What are you doing tonight in Maryland? We are doing a debate tonight on the issue of pornography we both said. And, then everyone wants to know who the opponent was. They were repeatedly surprised when Ron points across the table at me.
Sure in our world most opponents don’t gather for dinner together before a match. I guess that is my first lesson learned tonight. I would rather be a friend then an opponent any day of the week. Christians have way too many opponents. We as christians gather together in our groups way too much, stay inclusive in our circles way too much, devise game plans and strategies for reaching our opponents way too often, come up with emergent lingo, which our own do not even understand. When in reality I believe what would make Jesus happier is just being friends. “Hey Zacchaeus, tonight I am coming to your house for dinner….†Those disagreements, those points we think we need to prove, those sins we think we need to call out, I believe most of the time will fall on deaf ears unless you are friends.”
http://xxxchurch.com/07/blog_home.php?b=x3
Is the debate online? That would be entertaining…
Erunner
Thank you for responding…….you have mail!
http://porndebate.com/
I’ll have to watch that later.
I like the reflective attitude the guy is showing above. I’m sure some would take issue with the idea that it’s okay to goto Hooters, as long as it’s ministry work!
I wonder how the connection was made to RJ. Was he thought of as a trophy-type target for evangelism? It seems that Gross is realizing that there’s a real person inside there.
“Was he thought of as a trophy-type target for evangelism?”
They’ve never been about that, at least from reading Gross’s book and hearing their podcasts. They’ve always been about building relationships with people as opposed to trying to sell them Jesus and close the sale.
Buster
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/dirtylittlesecrets/
March 8, 2006
It’s also available through iTunes in case the link doesn’t work
BrianD,
That’s good. It bothers me when Christians seem to work harder trying to reach certain groups of people, like pornographers, homosexuals, atheists, etc. As if their sin is worse, or their need is greater than the guy’s next door.
Or it would just happen to be of benefit to the church to have a celebrity among its ranks or a story of a horrible sinner who did a 180 that they could tell everyone about…
And exploit them for their own purposes? Think Dion, Sharon Stone, Jane Fonda…
That’s old school evangelicalism.
The new school seems to be about developing relationships and keeping them going even if the gospel message is rejected. Because we’re seed-planters, and God brings about the harvest.
And here I thought THIS might be thread that set everybody off….
If I may, there are some pastoral voices part of PP that I didn’t see weigh in on this thread, and I’d like very much if you haven’t to read thru it and tell us your thoughts.