The members of the Rational Response Squad (left) squared off with Christians Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort (right) about the existence of God. The debate was moderated by Martin Bashir (center) and will be posted on ABCNews.com on Wednesday, May 9 at 1 p.m. and will also air on "Nightline" that night.
Tomorrow night ABC News is broadcasting a debate featuring Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort of Living Waters Ministries and the "Way of the Master" method of evangelism against atheists from the "Rational Response Team".
This allegedly intelligent group of atheists created "The Blasphemy Challenge" where they encouraged people to challenge God by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
While I have no idea how the debate went, it is unimaginable to me that people would blithely and sarcastically find it a sign of intellect to attempt to damn themselves.
In an odd twist to this story, this blog takes an opportunity to tie Comfort to Calvary Chapel and is quite hostile to both.
I didn't think Comfort was CC, but I could be wrong.
In other news…
Legendary opportunist Skip Heitzig has finished producing his documentary with Joel Rosenberg on Rosenberg's book "Epicenter".
The DVD's should be available soon at a Calvary bookstore near you.
The time and effort put into this film must have been what has precluded Heitzig from being able to produce the board meeting minutes and financial records he promised.
Either that or maybe Skip is just a common liar.
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
Michael, Ray Comfort came to the United States I believe based on a meeting with my ex Pastor. Ray attended our CC for many years and often did studies and so forth. Some of his early books are dedicated to members of that CC. His base of operations (Living Waters) was quite close to the church. I am not sure what Ray’s involvement is with that CC since his ministry has exploded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Comfort
Not really the best arguments, at least if the Calladus blog is representing the best material… Who sponsored this thing?
No CC connection is mentioned in his bio…
Watching some of the YouTube videos of people denying the Holy Spirit and blaspheming gives me the chills.
It seems like a “double-dog-dare-you” kind of thing that “adults” are doing. How sad to watch people spit in the wind like they are doing and thinking that it is some kind of statement they are making. The whole episode seems irrational to me. Like watching a five year old turn on the car not realizing that it is not pretend when the motor is running. Sad.
puzzletop.
I am always amazed at what form satan and his legion takes. In this case it is a couple of human beings claiming intelligence. I wonder what intensity of silence and conviction they will feel standing before the White Throne. However, it is God’s will that none should perish and so I pray that if there is any penetrable area of their darkened hearts, the counter-debators will pierce them with living words to save them from the deliberate attempt to go to hell.
Forever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the Truth…As far as I am concerned, there is no debate. It was settled in the beginning when God…
“The launch of ‘Epicenter’ will be supported by a two-hour live radio special on June 3 followed by a weekend special on June 9 and 10 on Christian radio stations nationwide, just in time for the 40th anniversary of Israel’s Six Day War.”
The 40th anniversary! That’s one generation!!! It’s the budding of the fig tree!!! The two men plowing in the field!!! This must be THE DATE!!!!
Puzz:
Psalms 2:1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, [saying,] 3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.” 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The LORD shall hold them in derision. 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: 6 “Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion.” 7 “I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You [are] My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give [You] The nations [for] Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth [for] Your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ” 10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish [in] the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all those who put their trust in Him.
Buster, From the Wiki….
“He has designed dozens of gospel tracts since the 1970s, leading to the tract ministry of Living Waters currently selling millions of tracts each year.[3] In 1989, he accepted an offer from Hosanna Chapel (of the Calvary Chapel fellowship) in Bellflower, California, to begin full-time ministry in the United States.
As a pastor in the Calvary Chapel fellowship Comfort believes he receives his teaching straight from Jesus Christ through the Bible.”
As I said, I’m not aware how involved he is with Hosanna Chapel these days, but he was there for many years upon arriving from New Zealand.
Ray has CC roots. Here’s one of his webpages that outlines them a bit.
http://www.calvarychapelfreegift.com/
In his words, “I love Calvary Chapel. It was a Calvary Chapel that brought me and my family to the United States back in 1989 and ordained me as a Calvary pastor, where I have served for the past 16 years. My two top right-hand men–Pastor Emeal Zwayne (my General Manager) and Pastor Mark Spence (the Dean of our 5000 student School of Biblical Evangelism), like myself, are Calvary pastors. Both of them were saved at Harvest Crusades.”
Papias,
Thanks. The Scriptures seem to always be up to date on scoffers no matter what generation.
I get this image of cockroaches shaking their fists at God.
God laughs at them. Imagine that. God laughing AT them.
Scoffers (or SKePTiCS as they like to be called) seem to have a special place in Hell for themselves… Sad.
I’ve watched Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron on television in passing.
I am not sure about this, but is it our job to separate the sheep from the goats while down here on earth?
For one, as this board suggests, you can find antichrist anywhere, even in people who claim to be longtime Christians. Even among some who many look up to as models of the faith. Chuck Smith is a great example. Here is a guy that has mentored a generation of young pastors and had shepherded a large movement. And yet, here he is also funding a sexual harrasment suit against his former business partner. Why? Only he knows, but no matter how you slice it, a minister of the gospel funding a sexual harrassment suit against his ex-partner and basically gossipping about his actions in public… not exactly a stellar moment.
So, just like Peter, in one moment we can knock it out of the park (cf. when Peter acknowledges that Jesus is “the Christ”), and then turn around and say something so stupid that it makes those around you wonder what team you are REALLY playing for (cf. when Jesus rebukes Peter and says, ‘Get thee behind me, Satan”).
Life is more blurry than dividing people up into the goodies and the baddies, no?
And I can’t help but wonder when I watch those two guys in action that they are so sure they have this figured out.
There are plenty of things in Scripture that suggest we should be careful how we judge. (It doesn’t say to NOT judge. It says when you do, remember that you are human too.) How many admonitions are there in Scripture about even the elect being deceived. And I don’t think this means that they are deceived by them doing evil necessarily. I think an even more pernicious lie is cast upon them when they think that their actions are approved by God when in fact they are nothing but. They preach hatred and fear and manipulation, and they shroud themselves in the facade of love.
And they are so caught up in the circus of facade that they can’t see it. Or if they do see it, it is too difficult to remove themselves from the circus. It pays too much, or they like having the spotlight on them, or they are too enamored of the bearded lady (insert your own joke and rimshot).
The Israelites were so intent on analyzing the Scripture to the letter of the law, but they missed Jesus coming the first time. The irony of ironies is that the church — the new Israel — has set herself up to do the exact same thing. They miss Jesus left and right. It’s an amazing spectacle to observe… and lament.
When the son of man returns will he find faith on the earth? Stay tuned…
dd
dd -
I haven’t watched the TV show, but I have heard their radio program quite a bit. Why would you think Ray, Kirk, et al, are being judgmental & preaching hatred & fear? (Serious question)
I know there’s a tendency to label anyone who preaches about an everlasting hell as being ‘judgmental,’ but surely there’s a world of difference between the Fred Phelps cult of heretics & the Ray Comforts of the world. What I’ve seen (make that ‘heard’) them do is help people define sin & show them that all of us are guilty before Almighty God - thus we are in need of a Savior.
Trust me, I’m not a WOTM apologist (though I like the method in combination with other methods) - they can be a bit dogmatic on minor points, IMO. But I certainly don’t see them as hateful.
Thanks, Erunner; I had only looked at the bio on his page.
Intersting that he calls it a “tract ministry,” but instead of saying he prints and distributes so many tracts, it says he sells millions each year.
SOunds like they’re torn between depicting him as a minister vs. a businessman!
Ray Comfort and Cameron have it right. You show people the Law and it as their schoolmaster will show them that they are without excuse and without hope apart from a Savior.
It seems that is the most effective method to evangelize. I suppose their are other methods but Ray Comfort’s evangelism method is supported by the Bible.
His television show (The Way of the Master- WOTM) encourages Christians to know what to expect when witnessing. I’ve enjoyed watching the different situations that Cameron and Comfort get themselves into when they do the man in the street stuff. It is real and pretty close to what people will say to you when you witness on the street.
I think the dogmatism they display shows they are standing their ground. I’m going to order a bunch of those Ten Commandment coins they have on their website and start using them to evangelize with. I’ve not done street witnessing in a long time. Ray Comfort encourges me to do so. God Bless him.
puzzletop
Since Skip is working with Rosenberg, has he changed his position to a pre-wrath view of the rapture? Honest question.
Buster,
The Ten Commandment coins he sells, he probably does at his cost. I’ve seen other coins that are ten to fifty times the cost he sells them at.
puzzletop
“opportunist”…a generous assessment
sola…interesting question…if you’re pre-wrath, you cover most of! the bases (and all the marketing opportunities, too)
Here is the blasphemy challenge from youtube. It has generated a ton of video responses.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i7QVbJnSPQE
LOL, Linnea.
You said what I was thinking.
I am sure Ray and Kurt have great hearts and it is exciting that they are on TBN and hold crusades. But who watches TBN and who goes to his crusades? My guess is mostly christiaised people. I wonder how many of those responding at crusades are re-commitments? WE need that but we can no longer look at that type of ministry as THE way to evangelize. The numbers of responders may be astounding but are we truly reaching the unsaved? Hmmmm
Puzzletop -
Sorry if I was unclear. I didn’t mean that their use of the Law was overly dogmatic…I like that part. I was referring to the radio program. The host (Todd Friel) can get rather dogmatic on other minor issues. It seems to me that he can have a tendency of narrowing the focus to only a reformed theology point of view from time to time…but again, that’s just my opinion.
linnea
Don’t know about the marketing stuff but I am curious if he has changed positions. If any one knows, I would really like to know.Chuck is pretty clear on what he expects his affiliates to teach in this area. Pre-Trib not pre-wrath
Sola -
Have you seen Ray or Kirk do a crusade? I personally thought that they stayed away from that format in general (though they mention some of their staff getting saved at them). When I’ve heard them preach, they’ve been open-air at a college campus mostly responding to hecklers…definitely NOT Christianized people.
Of course, I may be wrong & they may do them…I was just under the impression they did not.
Sola,
Do you honestly think, even if Skip has changed his view, that Chuck would take any action against him?
Mark Spence is one of Ray’s right hand guys…
That is funny…I went to Bible College with Mark. If I remember correctly he got kicked out of school for not completing any of his assignments.
It’s ironic because I just used him (nameless) as an illustration for my teaching on Sunday.
funny stuff.
Rosenberg is pre-trib, Rosenthal is pre-wrath. Rosenberg is in agreement with Chuck on end-times issues.
Doulos
No, I haven’t been to one of his crusades. So maybe I’d better be quiet on this. My comments were about crusades in general. Good question.
Liberated
I don’t know but I’d sure be curious
Doulos,
They do segments where they confront people and ask them questions like, “Have you ever lied?”
And when they wear them down, they say, “Then that makes you a liar. And you know where liars go, right? They go to hell… that is what the Bible says.”
It just seems a bit out of touch with the mood of the day. And of course, people will say that I am just asking them to compromise… and I am not. I am asking them, like it is said of the men of Isachaar in the Old Testament, to understand the temperature and climate of the day, and to guide your actions accordingly by a threeway conversation between God, yourself and the culture.
Doulos, I just have a firm conviction that fear has absolutely nothing to do with God, and that any time that you hear someone talk about God like this… you should run away.
Fear not, my Bible says…
okay, says me…
dd
I’ve watched Ray and Kurt on other Christian stations besides TBN and appreciate their desire to encourage more street witnessing to the unsaved.
dd,
Do you believe in the existence of Hell, or not?
dd,
You might want to read Matthew 10:28. “fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” NASB
dd,
Is Judgement day going to be a second chance for unbelievers, thus no fear?
dd -
I understand your point about the sons of Isachaar knowing what to do. Of course, we could make the argument that this applies when talking about Hell because in this day & age of postmodern relativism people don’t see themselves in sin & in need of a Savior. Thus the use of the law brings them to that point. But I can definitely see why someone would debate the method.
Regarding the fear of God, what would you do with Paul’s statement in 2 Cor 5:10-11? “10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well-known to God, and I also trust are well-known in your consciences.”
The implication is that even Christians need to have a healthy fear of God.
Fear is a good thing if the right thing is feared. Fear applied improperly is where the troubles begin …
Just my 2 cents
Puzzle,
Doesn’t the person have to first accept the validity of the Law — the fact that it represents an independent, objective moral authority in their life?
Just curious….has the Billy Graham Association taken a public stance the timing of the rapture?
dd will do one of two things: he will either ignore the question I asked him, or write a magnum opus stating his “categorical opposition to the mindset of eternal punishment”, or something like that.
Real quick…
Heitzig is decidedly pre-trib, he preached on Revelation when he came back…sure way to draw a crowd
If Rosenberg is pre-wrath, I don’t know about it, but would very much like to.
I don’t know what Billy Grahams position is on the Rapture, but Ruth is not pre-trib and wasn’t shy about letting people know it.
Papias,
Do you ask that question so that if I answer it the wrong way you can say “aha, a liberal” and therefore dismiss me?
I believe that “hell” as you may define it is more an exegesis of Dante’s Inferno than it is the Bible.
I believe in a final separation from God of those that choose to say “no” to him. Do I believe that they burn forever? No.
I can give you at least one verse… the biggest verse in the Bible… John 3:16 that suggests those who are not granted the “gift” of eternal life shall “perish.” I believe perish means snuffed out… they are no more… their soul is destroyed.
I am not sure why so many don’t like this interpretation. Made more biblical sense to me than having an eternal hell alongside an eternal heaven… how can God be “all in all” and fully reconcile himself to all humanity in the end if there is any part of his creation that is burning in eternal fire?
You are now free to hang me in effigy as a godless liberal… or whatever we’re called these days. (Funny, when my cousin came home from seminary spouting that Jonah and the whale wasn’t a literal story, I looked at him as if he had three heads and said, ‘Man, you’ve become a liberal.’ I didn’t even know what the word meant.)
dd
Doulos,
I think that verse you quoted about the “terror of the Lord” is fine, if kept in context.
The history of the Christian church has not kept the “fear of the Lord” in context very well.
Those who disagreed at one time were put to death. And today, if you don’t line up with all the correct answers you have people standing outside your church with signs. (What is up with that?)
My problem with using fear as the pre-eminent attribute of God is that it doesn’t lead with the best foot forward.
If you were talking about your own earthly father, would you talk about how angry he can get and how he can kick anyone’s butt on the block? (Maybe some of you would, I don’t know.) But I am not sure this is the thing to LEAD with… that God is going to throw you in hell if you don’t do this, that and the other thing.
I don’t have a problem with people talking about it. Billy Graham talks about it, but he does so in the context of God’s love. Billy dotes on God’s love… he smothers his sermons in analogies and allegories of the father’s love. And he reminds you, at the end, that to ignore this you do so at your own peril.
Context is everything.
But I would also caution all of us in our understanding of that word “fear.” It is a slippery one because the “fear” of the Lord is not being scared of him. It is a reverential awe.
And that “terror” you mentioned, I don’t think it is such like that of a horror movie… beware of, well, “God”-zilla… he’s gonna getchyou!
People become inured to fear-mongering. You might get some wounded ducks to come in, but fear-based religion is a dangerous thing because, I believe, it paints an unflattering and unhealthy image of God.
dd
You godless liberal.
There now…feel better?
BGEA on the Rapture:
http://www.billygraham.org/LFA_Article.asp?ArticleID=3
And DD,
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of hell. The Bible is all about the consequences of sin in our lives; if there is no hell or by your view, only obliteration, there is no real penalty for denying Christ.
This denies much of the Bible and in particular, the Gospels.
As uncomfortable as it is, there really is a hell.
This whole discussion assumes that salvation is something you can talk someone into rather than the sovereign gift of God.
More on that error tomorrow
dd,
I will not categorize you a liberal, that might offend some liberals(Dukakis excluded- “Dukakis in the tank”).
But so often in your posts, you say “To me it makes sense..”. Maybe you are not even aware of this statement, and that it seems you take the “it must make sense to me before I will believe it..” angle.
The Bible teaches an eternal separation from God: Hell. Read this link: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=400
dd -
I hear where you’re coming from. When I was in college, I had bandmate (drummer…had to play with a metronome. Very annoying habit) who believed in what he styled “guerrilla evangelism.” Very combative, very in-your-face - not so loving in his particular application.
Context is key when speaking of the fear of God; I agree. I don’t believe we should shy away from talking about it, but I think our hearts should be breaking for the lost when we do.
Liberated said,
You might want to read Matthew 10:28. “fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.†NASB
____________________
Do you think Jesus is talking about God there?
I think he’s talking about the other guy… with the pointy tail and the trident…. red suit… owns Halloween… and some churches… LOL.
Buster,
I’m not quite clear by what you mean by accepting the validity of the Law.
I am basing my thinking from Romans 1 where we who are without the Law are still condemned from what knowledge we have of right and wrong.The other area I am drawing from is Galations 3 that we are under the guardian (the Law) until Christ comes that we might be justified by faith. Since most people in the USA know what the Ten Commandments are about then I am assuming they are in line with what we mean when we talk about the Law.
puzzletop
GUYS
BIG GOOF ON MAY PART. THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE IS A THEORY DEVELOPED BY MARVIN ROSENTHAL!
I have have incorrectly thought for years it was Joel Rosenberg.
I retract my question about Skip
“This whole discussion assumes that salvation is something you can talk someone into rather than the sovereign gift of God.”
Which involves often those seemingly great crowds that respond to some manipulation of man and then later depart. It seems that God can and does use our methods, but I doubt that any man’s methods are as guaranteed as each thinks they are.
When I think of hell, I think of the fury,torment, and mocking Jesus suffered for our sake. If there is no hell, there would have been no reason to suffer such as this on our behalf. Our Lord has reserved a place for those who enjoy such treatment of each other. It was intended for the fallen angles, however there are those who follow the fallen. We who walk in the Spirit of His love and in the faith of the canceled debt do not have a reservation for the pit. We have escaped the trap. If one needs the possibility of tangible evidence of a literal hell, may I reccommend the book by a Mr. Weise (SP?) called 23 Minutes in Hell. Even the suggestion of a real hell should make one shudder and seriously reflect. Eternity is a long time to be mistaken.
CHPH,
I would be very cautious in accepting the validity of that book.
Marv Rosenthall is the guy who promotes the pre-wrath position. All the while erroneously believed it was Joel Rosenberg. My mistake.
sola,
I got all excited there for a minute…thought we had another convert
Laura Scott, (9:58)
This is a terrible view of hell - “if there is no hell or by your view, only obliteration, there is no real penalty for denying Christ.”
Hell is not a penalty for denying Christ. No one goes to hell because they denied Christ or never heard of Christ. People go to hell for sin in their life and everyone deserves to go there. It is Jesus who rescues us from that hellish fate. Everyone who denies Christ is already on their way to hell and the denial doesn’t help nor hinder their path.
Now, you could say that heaven is the reward you get for placing your trust in Christ.
MLD,
Forgive me. It was an incomplete thought.
I am well aware what hell is for and what I have been saved from.
I do not place credence on the validity of the man’s experience. My existence and faith is confirmed in the Biblical Scriptures. I point it out only to draw attention to the possibilty of hells horrors to draw attention to the fact that God indeed says it exists and being so, this is what it could be like.
But I do gratefully thank you Liberated for your concern. It shows a mature love for God and good discernment on your part.
Laura Scott,
I am sure you do. Most of my comments are so others can see.
I just flame when I hear someone say, “he is going to hell because he doesn’t believe in Jesus” or something like that.
CHPH,
I agree that hell is probably at least as bad as what that book depicts.
Laura…thanks for BGEA link–they are…pc in the matter
Michael…thanks for clarification on the questions.
MLD - are you saying God created every person, set them on a path for hell (as the default) and then provided only one exit ramp off that path only to those who are lucky enough to be in a place where they can hear and thus choose? The rest just continue on their merry way to hell? Even if they didn’t know it?
Liberated, Some might describe hell along these lines!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XgS0DefPXhY
Erunner,
I’ll have to wait until I get home tonight to view that. My computer at work won’t let me access youtube.
London,
You description is accurate.
But remember the attributes threads?
God is just (Romans 2:11).
God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).
57 layers appears to be a CC punk pastor looking for some web traffic.
He describes us once again as “bitter”on his site.
Screw him…I’m going to change his comment to unlink it.
MPH,
I just read your 8:57 post and laughed. I’m wondering if the work at CCBC was more difficult than when I was there. If not, then it one has to be pretty unmotivated to fail out of CCBC. I think my most difficult classes at CCBC were a little above average than my community college classes. They are walks in the park compared to my grad work.
Pap - they don’t “choose” it according to the description I think MLD is giving. It’s the default road.
So God fashions someone out of clay with a brain(I know, just work with me here) and then puts them on a converor belt straight to hell. The only ones that get off the belt are the ones who happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to hear that there’s an exit, or according to another theory, those with some sort of ‘homing device’ built in that recognizes God’s voice. Of course, God is the one that inserted that homing device into those he “really” loves…the rest, they just continue on the path to hell with no hope whatsoever….
Don’t see where there is a choice there except for a few.
Does anyone else feel that the “you are a liar and liars go to hell so you need to believe in Jesus” approach to evangelism is something that needs to be re-thought?
Isn’t there much much more to the gospel than telling people they are sinners condemned by the law and they need to believe in Jesus to save them? Not to say that those things are not true (they are very true), but what about redemption, new life, the promise of the Holy Spirit, reconciliation with our Creator, complete forgiveness, grace, mercy that is new each morning, the wonder and majesty of God, heaven. I’ll stop there.
The gospel is so much more than the four spiritual laws and a formula for telling people they need Jesus. Especially people who no longer believe in absolute truth - what is true for you is good but it doesn’t work for me.
In our day and age there is nothing that is considered more arrogant than telling someone that they are wrong in what they believe and that they are going to hell. It may be God’s truth, but it still is perceived as arrogant. Maybe humility is a better path. Maybe instead of arming people with a club so they can knock people over the head and show them that everyone is dead under the law, we should try arming people with knowledge of what salvation means; how we are saved, why we need saving in the first place, who created us, why we were created, and why reconciliation with our creator is worth giving up everything to have. If we can’t articulate that to someone who doesn’t believe that God exists why do we think that telling them that they are a liar and therefore going to hell is going to work?
conveyor
London,
Read Romans 9 and get back to me…
Michael, 57 etc is likely jealous or a friend of ‘Marie’s’. At any rate, IMHO, PP is FAR from being in ‘ashes’.
Bitter? Full of strong personalities and opinions, yes, but far, far from bitter. Just my two cents on a warm afternoon.
London,
Playing along with your description: That’s why its importatnt to share our faith - back to Ray Comfort! People are going to hell every day.
Micheal, I’m just trying to follow MLD’s logic, not looking for a fight about which of those 2 scenarios is correct.
London,
Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).
57 layers = uncircumcised philistine
So, Pap, now I have this vision of Ray Comfort as Lucille Ball in the “I love Lucy” episode where Lucy and Ethel are working at the chocolate factory, scooping little pieces of chocolate off the conveyor belt as it speeds up. Is that what evangelists are supposed to be doing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxzdzQUZ3M4
Right Pap, it’s amazing. The only problem I’m having with this way MLD describes it is that the people who get notified of the “exit” is so limited.
Michael,
Sorry about the trackback please delete my post. Didn’t mean to hav eit show up here. IRt the “bitterness” comment you gotta admit if you guys aren’t agitated and have someone to kick, this place is kinda quiet, just a little observation.
London,
I am with you on the Lucy episode! Imagine if each of those chocolate pieces were rolling around the conveyor belt, instead of just sitting there! Each one unique - each one with its own way of rollin’.
Each one designed to go straight to hell and become a big pile of melted goo.
Great image of a “loving” father…
No wonder people have a hard time believing God cares about them…
London,
Matthew 7:13 - “Enter the narrow gate”
Jesus tells us two things:
To go into the narrow gate.
The gate we are to go into is narrow, not wide.
As Paul said in 1 Cor 1:26, “Not many wise according to the flesh, not many noble, not many mighty are called, but God has chosen the foolish things..”
Freak,
You are a punk.
Read the threads, read the prayer requests and then roll them up and stick em in your sanctimonious CC can.
It’s arrogant jerks like you that ruin all the good work that your peers do here.
Traffic is down…a lot of our regulars are at a pastors conference
Out of our ashes we had more vistors before 9:00 than you’ve had in your history.
Bray on
Bitterness … did someone say bitterness???
We can’t define heaven or hell and I think they side track us from the big question: What do you think of Christ?
there are a lot of cliche answers to London’s 11:33 post - true ones
how about this one?
That precious blood that flowed into the ground at Christ’s crucifixion was more than just a sorrowful event in history. It, at the very least, stripped God’s adversary of all claims of being worthy to sit on the throne of The Most High God. And, mysteriously paid for our redemption. Yes, we are judged by God on how we react to that event. But history before that time produced souls destined for redemption by the fact of their hearts desire and doesn’t it follow that there are now, too, souls who are saved without hearing of God’s plan of redemption simply by the fact of their hearts desire for same? The Church is an interesting mystery and only a part of the plan of God. It is our privilege in time to participate.
Perhaps I’m too way out in left field for the above to be posted. I’ll understand if that’s the case. God didn’t call me to teach or preach - perhaps the thots can be expressed more accurately by others here.
Old US Army commercial:
“We do more before 9am than most people do all day.”
Papi- you’re making my point.
So, getting back on the topic of the thread. This is from Sojourners and was written by a woman named Becky Garrison who was at the taping. I like her take on it.
Gotta go, my PP post allotment for the day has run out.
http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2007/05/becky-garrison-christian-vs-athiest.html
One more thing…BlueFreak, I really like your name!!
Michael, maybe a little hospitality can be extended here huh? It goes alot further in trying to convince people this place isn’t full of bitterness than does calling people names and telling them to shove things up their “can”.
Ya know?
Michael,
I am truly sorry for making you angry, you can call me a punk if you want to. I don’t want to get in a blogging contest I know you have me beat. To be honest I thought you might like the quirky correlation of the whole phoenix rising thing. I better stop being a jerk and get off my sanctimonius CC can and go do something
Puzzle,
Thay may know the 10 Commandments, but I don’t think the majority believe that they are obligated to follow them, either to God, or as form a moral authority or obligation to the fellow man. There is a “law in their heart” that they follow, but this is internal, and needs to be discovered; it’s generally not an external standard.
The relativist doesn’t accept any external standard of morality or truth, so our attempts to impose the law on them (in terms of getting them torecognize their guilt) seems to me to be the longer path to get them to repentance. It’s one that requires two philosophical changes — first, to accept the validity of the law, then to accept teh gift that frees them from the law.
This generation doesn’t have the judaic-christian foundation that previous ones in this country have generally had.
This makes our work harder, but it also makes it more personal — we have to figure out what is the moral code of each person that we’re talking to, and then try to establish their need for a savior.
London,
When you start your own blog, you’re welcome to respond to people as you choose.
This one is mine and I’m sick and tired of people making a caricature of what we do and the people that post here.
Therefore…I said what I meant and I’ll taunt him thrice if he does it again.
Buster,
Are you going Emmergent on me?
Let me compose myself and I will get back to you.
puzzletop
Puz,
Not if I have to hang icons or light candles…
I like candles…
Buster, I can’t light candles?
Buster,
I like icons, but Severe Mercy never got around to sending me some…
I don’t have any candles, but I’m checking in for a moment
I don’t believe Ray Comfort will be quite as successful as he thinks, but his opponents won’t discredit Christianity either…
I’m solidly evangelical, and yet I also go to the local Mission and light candles and pray from time to time. I don’t think God has a problem with that.
Holly went through Comfort’s school of evangelism and it works well in some circumstances.
We found that the point made earlier applies…people have to have a respect for the Ten Commandments first or the conversation goes nowhere.
Dagnabit! If Aaron can light candles so can we!
Does Ray Comfort light candles?!
London,
Thanks I hope I don’t get you in anymore trouble.:-(
Michael,
Taunt me once, shame on you
Taunt me twice, shame on me
Taunt me thrice, shame on we
It sure is fun to rhyme.:-)
Aw Freak, don’t worry. I’m always in trouble here.
Candles are a fire hazard!
Buster,
You know I can understand where you are coming from and I think you are saying that there is not a one size fits all mode of evangelism.
I just am glad that there are many different modes to evangelizing people. The variety is great, from the quiet witness of the believing wife to her unbelieving husband to the guy on a milk crate with the American flag behind him in the park.
I think Ray Comfort takes a lot of heat and should be encouraged and not criticized even though he has a funny accent and wears really ugly ties.
puzzletop
London,
Go post on his blog…nobody else does.
Pastor Michael, the tender-hearted lion. I was just thinking, Michael, is this really your blog? It would seem to me, that if this blog is really the work of Christ that we all hope and believe it is, then it is not your blog, but Christ’s.
Thus, you may be justified on saying anything you want on a blog of your own, but a blog that is supposed to be used of God? It is a different situation altogether. You cannot have this blog be a ministry and work of God when it is time to call people to account, and then be your blog when people rile you up and irritate you.
Either you are an ambassador for Christ, and this blog is His work through you, or it is your work, and you may do what you want with it. But since I believe you as a Pastor, would consider yourself an ambassador for Christ, then I daresay you ought to take control of your mouth and be careful what you say.
Young men, like myself, are watching what goes on here. We’re looking for an example to follow, we’re looking for men of strength and self-control to show the way. From a young man who aspires to serve God in the ministry, I ask you to be considerate of what you say, even to a “punk” like bluefreak57. You’re words have more impact than you know.
Just some thoughts.
-OYM
Gosh,
I just enjoyed Kirk Cameron as Mike Seaver on Growing Pains. Life was so much simpler then, wasn’t it.
Personally, I’m not down with their style. That is the pounding the pavement stuff, video taping it, and using footage as a “how to” manual to evangelism. I’m sure it’s helped many people, but, personally it just gives me a sick feeling in my gut every time I see them use manipulative tactics to “lead someone to Christ”. I wonder if this is really what God desires, when he talks about making disciples of all nations. A hit and miss on the street and then a “see ya”? I’m sure that there are some that are saved that way, but I just think, once you start marketing something to make money…it’s dangerous.
Maybe I am becoming a Calvinist after all, part of me thinks that it’s about God drawing people to himself, and I wonder, do we get in the way sometimes of what God is doing? Ponderous.
Just Shannon’s two cents. My husband can’t stand the Way of the Master thing, he thinks they come across arrogant and condemning. Anyone else agree with that?
Good idea Michael! Then maybe he’ll come post on mine “when” I create one.
Shannon,
I doubt that Ray and Kirk are overlooking the work of the Spirit’s drawing, and that kind of evangelism is not for everyone - to be sure.
I have never liked any “method” to evangelizing(anyone remember this line? “..now place you right hand on their left shoulder”). But some folks feel scared to share their faith in their own space, much less the street witnessing kind.
I guess the real point is that we should not feel scared to share our faith, and seek opportunities to do so. I find that when I ask Him for opportunities, He gives them to me. I just don’t ask enough.
OYM,
Then maybe the impact you need to receive is that there are still some shepherds who won’t tolerate sheep abuse and are willing to smack soundly those who do.
He called the people here bitter, which is the standard cop out of people who think that abuse of power should go without restraint or answer.
Jesus didn’t die to make me nice, young man, but to be holy and hate what He hates.
Sometimes that means you use strong words and actions to protect His kids.
I’m willing…how about you?
OYM,
Does your car belong to you, or to God? Perhaps you should your keys in the car and the doors unlocked the next time you go out.
Puzzle,
That’s it, exactly. I would think the Law-based approach would work very well in countries where people are still predominantly raised with belief in God and the authority of the Bible, like in Brazil. Theat may be why the growth is happening so rapidly there right now:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070503/lf_nm/brazil_pope_religion_dc
Do you think Jesus hates BlueFreak57 because he said some people here are bitter?
I don’t. I think Jesus loves him madly, passionately, wildly, crazily, and without abandon. Even if Blue does, on occassion, think some of His people are bitter.
London,
That’s not what I said, but it’s normal for you to twist what I write.
I’m wishing you and Blue boy great success on your blogs.
London,
Blue can say whatever he wants to on his blog, but when he comes over here to post, and links to his blog - its just bad form.
Imagine putting a sign in your front window, saying that your neighbor was a bad person(pick your sin). Your neeighbor invites his freinds over for a party. You then go over to the same neighbors house to join their party, all the time saying “Look at the sign in my window”.
Miss Manners would not approve.
Most (I wish everyone) agrees that God hates sin. I am troubled when excuses are made for sin. I was in a church for 7 years where people continued to make excuses for the abuse and control of a pastor. It makes me sick to think about it! God calls us to hate (I know, strong word) sin, and by that I mean behaviors that sin hides behind. No, we are not to hate the sinner, only what they manifest in their life. When the Prophet Nathan confronted David with the words, “You’re the manâ€, he did not harbor hatred toward David, only the sin that he had committed.
I agree with what Michael said, “Jesus didn’t die to make me nice, young man, but to be holy and hate what He hates.†We are told to “Be angry, and do not sinâ€. The time has come for God’s people to be angry. Not only for the things taking place outside the walls of the church, but also for what is taking place behind those walls.
Bob,
You need to become my ghostwriter
Well said!
London,
So why did you have a problem with my earlier post.
People go to hell for the sin in their life, their sin against a Holy God - no other reason.
“the wages of sin is death” (you’ll find that in the Bible.) Do you know anyone who does not sin against God? I didn’t think so - so everyone deserves hell.
Jesus is the one who rescues us from that hell. Now Jesus can rescue all from hell and all you have to do is seek Him. London, who seeks after God? “there is no one who seeks God” (that can be found in the bible also.)
So what are the many ways God has set up for people to get to Him? or as you say exit ramps “then provided only one exit ramp off that path only to those who are lucky” Yes London, God has given us many ways to reach Him.
Let’s count them
1.) Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
2.) Geez, London, after an exhaustive search, I couldn’t find any other exits (I even searched for the Dali Lama in the bible - not there)
God didn’t make us with a default to sin - we choose to sin and defy God.
Yikes. Blaspheme on purpose? Psalm 1 Antitypes in abundance. For those taking up the ‘d@mn yourselves’ challenge - God will not be mocked. If you ever needed proof that we live in a post-Christian culture, there you have it.
Newell says in his commentary on Romans that if you’re ever disappointed in the dark deeds of man, you’ve underestimated the grip and power of sin. Yeah, buddy -wow. Color me surprised and underestimating again.
How’d you like to grow up in the homes represented by folks like that?
I have no problem with TWotM - Ray and Kirk have a passion for sharing Christ with people. The good news is very bad before it’s very good. The good news is forgiveness of sins. Those sins separate us from God. Apart from God, we’re apart from God. That is bad news. THEN comes Jesus.
John the Baptist was very obnoxious in preparing the way of the LORD. Sort of a ‘one - note’ preacher. Very judgmental. And totally faithful to God’s calling.
Who are you to judge another man’s servant? Romans 14.4. I’ve been beat over the head with that verse the last two weeks, just thought I’d share the pain.
When dissecting ministries, be careful not to be faultfinding.
Michael, I wasn’t trying to twist your words. I am just having a hard time with understanding how people who claim to see Jesus as the loving savior of all the world, can be angry all the time at such a small slight.
He’s heard that this is a bitter place. He came here and first thing he was told was to shove it up his “can”. I honestly don’t get how that kind of talking helps convince people that this isn’t a bitter place.
I don’t think Jesus was angry all the time. I’m NOT saying you are either btw! I’m just trying to work out what kind of message we’re sending.
Sorry for appearing like I was twisting your words. That wasn’t my intention. Like I said, just trying to work it out in my own head…
MLD, I KNEW there’d eventually be a day when you’d bring up the Dali Lama here.
Gotta go check out what Freak is up to. Have a nice day!
Hello everyone.
DAArmstrong,
CCBC has never placed the emphasis upon academics or head knowledge…which I’m not opposed to that approach. But there were guys like Mark who felt they were more righteous because instead of doing homework they would “seek the Lord.”
I did security…I can remember this same group of people coming out of the woods at 2am. “Hey what are you guys doing…curfew is at midnight? Don’t judge us brother we were seeking God!”
good times…
Buster, should I test the Lord my God? But your analogy actually plays well into my thought. Though I do not consider my car to be a ministry for God, nor would anyone else, I do drive the speed limit and obey the traffic laws in order that my testimony as a Christian is not defamed. Similarly, if this blog represents Christ, and is led by Christians, it should represent Him well.
Michael, in James it says “My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.” I think it is wise and good that you are mindful of protecting the sheep, but will your words make the difference? Are they the words of calm rebuke, or anger?
I am merely asking you to consider your position, and consider whether it is really neccesary to use the extremes of language that you at times resort to. I think you can accomplish the same goals without going about it the way you do.
Perhaps I am just naive.
-OYM
London,
I honestly do not understand how you can defend anyone that comes here and says we are “bitter.” Exposing people who shouldn’t be in the pulpit or missionary fields isn’t the definition of bitter.
Also, our God is a loving God, but like it or not there is a Hell.
OYM,
“I do drive the speed limit and obey the traffic laws…”
Sorry if that was you I flipped off the other day.
Hi BrianD. How are you today?
Hey LFT,
I recommended mirac to my mom…
she purchased some of the supplements and has been taking them for about a week…
she said she hasn’t noticed any difference…does it take more time or is there anything else you would recommend.
Well, Dusty, when no one responded to me the first time around I thought I had said something ELSE to make people mad
Doing good…I saw my doctor this afternoon and my blood pressure is lower than it was a few months ago, in the acceptable range…but he wants it lower, so I need to watch my diet and exercise more.
MPH,
I saw almost an immediate difference, but according to their web page, it could take as long as 3 weeks. I will say if I miss a dosage, I feel it the next day.
My only advice would be to tell her to take it at the same time each day. I will say a prayer for her that it works!
Bob,
Seven years? I didn’t realize you were there so long. That ’s some real long suffering.
Dannyf… great post. I totally agree. God is so much more amazing and wonderful than any of us can imagine, and so many of his so-called children instead lead their introduction to him by saying, “My dad can beat the snot out of you.”
Why not lead with the grandeur of God? How about the opportunity to participate in his divine nature? How about… anything other than “my dad can beat the snot out of you if he feels like it”?
A word about Kirk Cameron. When he was on the Growing Pains show he became a Christian and radically pulled away from his co-stars, making them feel like lepers in the process.
They were “hellbound,” of course, because they didn’t believe the gospel. And so, Kirk could treat them like the refuse they were… and not even invite them to his wedding.
Yes, he was young. But I get the feeling that the guy that I see on TBN would do the same thing… carve the world into two; the born agains and the hellbounds.
It just isn’t that simple.
Is this what Jesus comes in our lives for, so that we can turn to those that disagree with us and hold our noses? And then gather together in our holy huddles with those that agree with us?
Doesn’t sound like the “good news” to me.
dd
thanks LFT…I will let her know about taking them at the same time each day.
mr potato head -
did you ever get the “do you know who I am?” working security at CCBC? At MHSpgs my friend got that from a brodersonspawn once. hee.
Just checked out the blasphemy challenge website. These people are so damned stupid.
This is not Bluefreak’s first visit here.
LFT, I don’t look at it as defending someone saying we’re bitter. That can only be defended by not being bitter.
I look at it as defending someone who’s just been called names and told to stick it up his “can”.
I don’t know Blue from Adam. He may be a total jerk or he may actually be a great guy. Who knows. Not me. What I do know is we didn’t do such a great job convincing him or any one else that his views of us were wrong.
Maybe that’s not important in the grand scheme of things, I don’t know that either. What I do know is that we can’t say things like that in the name of Jesus and not think people in the world are going to reject the rest of the message no matter how right we are.
Hope that explains where I’m coming from on this.
BrainD, That is good news! Keep up the good work. I will still keep it in prayer.
dd,
I agree with you…I’ve listened to some of Kirk’s and Ray’s radio broadcasts. It’s as if the people are a project not a mission field.
I’m sure they have great hearts but the tactics seem a little vacuous of love…
Hell’s best kept secret is a very good study on evangelism.
DD,
Good points. I remember watching a E True Hollywood Story about Growing Pains and how Kirk turned into a converted snob. But, he was young, and honestly probably distancing himself from the crazy world of Hollywood. With girls and drugs around every corner and most likely easily accessible to him, as a young Christian, I can see why he had to put up rigid boundaries with the world and unsaved. It’s hard to say if he’d be that way today. I remember in high school being told that even “talking to” partiers and druggies was sin, I wonder if he got the same advice from his youth pastor? Being a new Christian in highschool and college is a rough road. Fleeing youthful lust..and all.
I wonder how many of the people on the street he is talking to have heard similar stories about him and want nothing to do with him? And, I wonder how many are from his generation (like me), had a teen beat crush on him (like me), and would say “sure” to a relationship with Jesus just cause he asked? Celebrity is a strange thing. Glad I’m not a part of it.
Michael,
Keep up the good work. Thanks for protecting us and speaking up when you’re led. You’re always in my prayers.
anon,
you better believe it…
I remember one of my buddies approaching one of the “big guys”…and saying, “hey you were doing 40 mph through here and the speed limit is 20mph”
he then proceeded to hand him a ticket…which was worthless but it was more like a written warning. The “big guy” pastor took the ticket ripped it in half threw it on the ground and walked off.
yep…do you know who I am came into play quite often.
sad but true…
London,
When you come to someone else’s private property and start blasting away you should expect something thrown in return. This is the house that Michael built. We are only guests here and should respect our host and his helpers.
Dusty, I need to do some work myself in that regard, but, things could be a lot worse, so I’m blessed….
spuds, much of evangelism seems to be, to me anyway, about ‘closing the sale’. How about being led by the Holy Spirit to do/say what He wants you to, and trust Him to plant the seed, close the sale, whatever He wants to do…since it’s He, and not us, who has the power to save men’s souls anyway?
Things have been slow around here as of late.
Therefore, with Michael’s approval and permission, I would like to propose the Do You Know Who I Am Challenge.
Calvary Chapel pastors - but only the big-time pastors - who dislike us and this blog and its mission tell us what they think, but they have to throw out the ‘you don’t like what I have to say? do you know who I am?’ line. Then we get to respond
Brian D,
shhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
do you know who I am?? lol
BD,
“closing the sale” is a very good way to put it…
even as pastors we can pressure people to raise thier hands or come forward but in reality we may be playing on a person’s emotions. I’m not against altar calls and I will continue to do them when lead…
but I think sometimes people need to process the gospel…evaluate whether they are ready to take up their cross and follow Him.
closing the sale…may make us feel good but how many are really entering into a covenant relationship with Jesus?
Have you ever been witnessed to by a Jehovah’s Witness?
I remember meeting this guy that came to my door, and I invited him in because I had nothing to do and was interested to see how they did whatever it is that they did.
And he spent about 10 sessions trying to persuade me. They had such an interesting way of narrowly defining certain Scriptures to make it sound like they were the last living remnant of God’s favor. So I would rattle off verses that offered a wider view, stuff that suggested that God was interested in ALL of humanity… not just the Joho’s and their kine.
And you could see that he was getting rattled. He was a newbie, and I was a lifer. So, it wasn’t a fair fight or exercise or whatever it was. But I liked the guy, and always invited him in… even fed him on occasion. I was enjoying this guy as a person because I could see he was sincere, and I appreciated that… but I was using the book he was coming at me with to broaden out some of the things they were telling him.
Then around the tenth visit he did something that I will never forget as long as I live. He handed me off to one of his higher ups. The eleventh session, I was sitting there with the guy I thought was my friend, and then the grand poobah of the local Joho church and his wife (who as I recall was very ornery to me).
This guy was a black belt JW, and he could rattle them off as good as I could… and we went a couple rounds before I told them they were nuts to think they were the only way to God, and they scuttled off.
But before they left, I took this guy aside and said, “You know, today you treated my like a notch on the salvation belt. And I didn’t appreciate that. You couldn’t answer my questions so you bring your boss and his wife over to see if they can crack me. That’s not cool.” He said, “No, no… that’s not what I did.”
But it is exactly what I did. And when they figured out I was not a potential recruit, I never heard from them again. I understood why non-Christians are sometimes of contemptuous of Christians trying to witness. It isn’t natural to walk up to someone and say, “Do you know where you’re going if you die tonight?”
There are other ways of presenting this message, and you do not have to resort to being an idiot to do so.
(If you want to watch a moderately good movie about this subject, rent THE BIG KAHUNA with Kevin Spacey and Danny DeVito. The speech that Danny DeVito gives at the end should be shown to wannabe Christian evangelists all over the world.)
woof,
dd
And once we win them over, we lovingly get to tell them ‘We Told You So’
Yeah, cent. You’re anonymous
Cent..
For whatever reason, it drives me crazy that I can’t figure out where you’re from. Don’t know why, just does!
Brian D,
You’ve just disclosed my other moniker!
spuds, I went up a few times to give my heart to the Lord.
But I remember only ONE time that I believe it actually counted…because I sensed the leading of the Lord to go up, and in praying the prayer, mean what I was saying, repent of my sins and receive Jesus as Lord…no one tried to sell salvation to me or tried to close the deal. My salvation was totally a work of God, and I believe even my decision to be obedient instead of running out the back was a work of God. I’m so glad He had that much mercy on me, because I wouldn’t have chosen him in my sinfulness.
Shannon,
for a marginal price I’ll tell you where centy is from.
Cent, don’t worry, there’s so many anons who post here we can’t tell one from the other
MPH…
Really?
mph,
I remember one time I was speeding at the campus in Murrieta and this young punk who thought he worked security tried to come up and give me a ticket. I riped it in half and walked away!
dd ask: “Have you ever been witnessed to by a Jehovah’s Witness?”
My front door mat reads:
I give at the office
I love my vacuum cleaner
And I’ve found Jesus Christ
My answer would be NO….they don’t bother ringing my doorbell.
Dustshaker you are correct.
London, I appreciate all the work you are doing.
Michael, I should have never made a blanket statement that all who blog here are bitter. The truth is I can see much good here, and yet alot of bitterness still. Atleast this is what I see, when a post comes out about _____ (fill in the blank), and yet there is still a point where time is taken to dig at someone else i.e. Heitzig & Co when there is no clear tie-in. Again just observing not trying to judge.
Shannon,
His name is centorian and his home is in heaven.
dd,
good story…well put.
BD,
yeah I came to Christ through an altar call as well…well all I had to do was pray silently as the pastor prayed. He didn’t make me come up or raise my hand or anything.
I got off easy…maybe I should attend a Harvest Crusade just so that I can come forward and really get saved!
Dusty,
That response is why I love you!!
hey dd, you know my favorite Jesus movie? No? Ok, I’ll tell you…
It’s “Saving Grace” with Tom Conti. Have you seen it? Mr. Conti plays the pope who accidently gets locked out of the Vatican. Of course, he’s used to having everything given to him and he has no money so he can’t buy food.
He wanders around these Italian villages just hanging out with people. Finds one place that he sticks around for a while to help them build a waterway.
Stuff happens (don’t want to ruin it) but there’s this one GREAT scene where the pope is working along with some of the poor people of the one village and the bad guys come and try to stop them. He gets off the bridge they are building to go try and talk some sense into the bad guys. It, of course, doesn’t work and they attack someone. The Pope, in what I think is a great representation of how Jesus looked overturning tables in the temple, picks up a 2×4 and wallops the bad guys with it. Just knocks the crap out of them in an effort to protect the good folks of the village.
Love that scene because I think it shows the real balance between being meek and being strong.
Check it out if you haven’t seen it yet.
P.S. Craig Fergeson is not in it. That’s a different “saving grace” all together.
Shannon,
Freak,
So what’s you point about Skip? Our point is he doesn’t belong in the pulpit. We don’t need to tie that in with anything…it’s just a fact of life.
ok Blue Boy, you’re not going to make it easy on me are you?
BTW - I loved High Chapperal when I was a kid. Had THE BIGGEST crush on “Buck” the guy that alway wore black, was forever getting in trouble and drank too much. Dang…what a man.
Bluefreak57,
You may want to look beyond what you see as bitterness … and ask yourself what may have happened to cause such a reaction. Just a thought to consider.
Freak,
Someone has to remind people that we have a standing lie and unrepentant sin in Albuquerque.
I nominate me.
I accept.
By the way, most of your peers who know the situation agree with me, so you’re not going to get any brownie points for this one.
Centy,
you rebel…this was at Twin Peaks and I know exactly who it was…so I know it wasn’t you.
I won’t say who he was but let’s just say his name might appear in Harvest.
careful fellas…that guy might decide to come here and take me up on my Do You Know Who I Am challenge
Freakoid - it’s not really that much work. Besides, I want you to stick around so we can mess around with your name. The possibilities are limitless!
London,
If you are going around calling for more respect and acceptance on this blog, telling someone you are going to “mess around” with their screen name is hardly the way to go.
And who is this “we” you are referring to? That does not include me.
I came in late to this conversation but have some comments on Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Do not lie, do not steal, do not murder are not unique to the ten commandments, I have never heard anyone defend those actions. This approach appeals to a persons conscience and for the most part eliminates the conversation digressing into an intellectual debate.I personally have never witnessed to anyone whose primary hangup was an intellectual one. The response you get is a good indicator as to whether God is working in their heart. Law to the proud, grace to the humble is the way Jesus dealt with people, thus The Way Of The Master. I use combination of this method and some others because it is relatively simple and more quickly gets to the heart of the matter. Ray does not advocate pushing for a decision as someone mentioned because he does not want to manipulate anyone. Again, that is something that has to be assesed in the context of the encounter with someone. If I sense that someone is ready I may ask them if they want to pray but not push.This is a very liberating methodology because realizing that only God can bring someone to Himself takes all the self-induced pressure off of us.
Brian
when I was in the AF I was asked “do you know who I am” by a Chief who just so happened to be the top ranking enlisted man on the base. I had denied him access into our secure facility. We were having an exercise at the time.
Technically, our unit wasn’t part of the base, we had a different chain of command that was at another base. So, I told him he wasn’t in my chain of command. That and the cigarette smoke I blew in his face infuriated him.
“Who do you say I am?†~ Jesus
“I am†~God
Laura good point.
ok Heinz57…not everyone will mess around with your screen name. Some will just keep calling you “Freak”.
There’s some people who find it amusing to change each other’s names around just for fun. No harm, we’re all actually pretty good friends. It’s just silly fun really. Some how I get the feeling you won’t be offended and you might just play along.
Thanks for clearing that up Laura.
Laura,
I agree with you.
London,
Do you have a frog in your pocket? I don’t “mess around” with anyone here…including “pet” screen names.
LFT, see above post…
Cheers and have a nice day.
I have rather enjoyed all the new nicknames I have here…
spuds
pothead
tater
and many more…
LFT…I double love your front door mat…where can I get one?
Azul-freak..were you born in 57? Are you a wave rider, too? How about the “Do you Know Who I am Challenge?”
pothead is my favorite for you
Brian J.
Good observations…that is a very similar tact that we use when we’re witnessing.
Awesome, Dusty. Good reminder!
linnea,
I had my doormat custom made years ago. I wouldn’t take a million for it.
I used to have one that said:
I shoot every third salesman.
The second one just left!
LFT…
You should patent it and market it…I know a church bookstore/coffee shop that just might make room for it on their shelves.
linnea,
Maybe I should…I have come up with some pretty good ones in the past. Never thought about selling them.
I had a doorbell that had the voice of W.C. Fields saying, “Ahhh, go away or I’ll kill ya!”
Not working right now… I need to fix it…
My son’s door mat just say “Leave”
Buster & MLD,
You are my kind of people!
I have these termites I’d like to damn to hell! We are having work done here at the house and the last thing on our list is to fumigate. I figured we would go with the tenting until I heard a commercial for a company that uses orange oil and in speaking with them they guarantee their work.
In keeping with the theme here, do you think this method of using orange oil would be a good way to damn these termites to hell?
I’ve tried various door mats to let these termites know they aren’t welcome but evidently, they can’t read!
http://www.pacificcoasttermite.com
I also have a sign at my pool that says:
Don’t pee in my pool.
I don’t swim in your toilet!
Okay, I checked the dates to make sure I don’t embarrass myself TOOOO much like I did the other day(night):shock:
I’m going to comment on some stuff because I’m home from squirrelly kinder and cranky parents (afternoon teacher got a tongue lashing she didn’t deserve).
Left by Michael on May 8th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Freak,
You are a punk.
Read the threads, read the prayer requests and then roll them up and stick em in your sanctimonious CC can.
Okay, Michael told him to stick em up his can. NOT the worst thing he could say. My dear old dad used to say “blow it out your (insert crude word for posterior)” I don’t think this will get him sent to hell.
It’s arrogant jerks like you that ruin all the good work that your peers do here.
Michael, arrogant jerks can’t ruin what God ordains. If God is in it, it is not “ruinable”. Just two more cents from me.
Traffic is down…a lot of our regulars are at a pastors conference
Traffic is down? coulda fooled ME! Lots STILL going on around here!
“Out of our ashes we had more vistors before 9:00 than you’ve had in your history.”
Okay, done with Michael…:shock:
LFT, I want your “welcome” mat!
KumbayaaaaamyLord………………..
Don’t hurt me Michael, but this looks akin to peeing on one’s tree….something male live beings do to mark their territory. Who cares whose is the biggest and/or the best. I like it here. I come here for fellowship, to learn, and sometimes to harmlessly pull chains. I like the seriousness AND the humor. This is a caring and very human place, moderated by men and woman who love the Lord. I appreciate this alot. I like the fact that even though we strongly differ on the “h” issue, you still welcome me here and share your input. I still don’t agree with you, but I do respect you.
Coming in a little late…
What’s this I hear about Skip making an NBA video, “Epic Center”? Will it be out in time for the playoffs?
Erunner,
Being a Floridian where oranges grow everywhere, I am only going to say this on the subject.
There are just two types of people in Florida. Those who have termites and those who will have termites! If oranges killed them….well, you get my point.
E-Runner–don’t know about termites, but cockroaches don’t like borax
kat, If I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you!!
regarding my 4:35pm post, the last paragraph is in the WRONG place and I did NOT place it there. HOW does that happen. ’sposed to be after Michael’s remark about how many post here compared to Freak’s. sigh….now I’m in BIG trouble.
ducking and running……….
LFT and linnea…. Thanks for those keen insights!
LFT, Good to see you and praying you are well.
WOW,
I feel the love on the PP
Here are some more names to throw out there:
Freaky
Freako
BlueBell
Little boy Blue
Frankenfreak
Anywho,
Michael are you really sure it is your job to tell us ( and them) over and over again about the improprieties (alleged or real - not my debate) in a ministry? I thought that was why we have the Holy Spirit. I don’t want to split hairs but I just see holding on to anger etc.. towards someone is not good no matter what we label it.
Bluefreak57, Talk to me about termites! I have slept a bit today and it appears you are new to the blog?? Hope you are well!
Your last post may have done well without that last paragraph…….
Yeppo Erunner…I see that Freakenstein has that same problem that dd used to have. He just needs to chop off the last paragraph of whatever he writes before he hits “submit” and he’ll be just fine.
dd can mentor him along.
E-runner…I find many pests respond well to a propane blow torch
Freak,
In this case it is my job and I plan to do it consistently and well.
The Holy Spirit commanded us in the word of God to mark,expose, and rebuke those who do such things in the presence of all.
If you studied half as well as you shoot off your mouth you would know that.
Now you know anyway…
Erunner,
Termites are creations of God. Pray for them.
linnea ready to deal with household pests!
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Linda-Hamilton—Terminator-2-Judgement-Day-Photograph-C10034590.jpeg
Liberated, I pray there journey towards the light is serene! Don’t forget the 11:41 am I left for you!
E
Saw it and enjoyed it. Maybe getting an anteater for a pet would solve your problem.
Erunner,
Borax … works for termites too.
I don’t like the old “scare the hell out of them” tactic of evangelism. Neither do I think people respond well to the idea that in the afterlife you’ll go to hell if you’re not a Christian. Not to say that that isn’t true but Romans 2 says that it’s the goodness of God that leads people to repentance. Fear works well at getting an immediate response which fits well into the American style of evangelism that loves to count the number of souls that come to Christ but does little in the long run.
Personally, I think the main task Jesus accomplished on the cross was not the salvation of a soul from hell and death, but the restoration of a relationship with God that was broken in the garden. To me that’s more than just saving some one from hell’s flames. But hat do I know….
I think the first time someone tried to “convert” ™ me I was told two things, how much I hated God, and how much God loathed, hated, and despised me with an eternal wrath. Well that was comforting. Now I knew, by total grace IMO, I needed to be forgiven, but I was often told I could not be forgiven being an unregenerate spiritually dead God hater so I called out to God. Then all of a sudden I was God’s friend, a chosen and loved son, etc. That only lasted honestly about one month or so. After that I was reminded on many occasions that I was still a pile of manuer covered by a blanket of Christ’s rightousness. So God still hates me but he sees His son so I am invisible and so is my sin. But when I sin God still sees it and hates my sin and will disapline me as a son, but He will no longer kill me forever in the lake of fire. I could go on with this, but wont.
I think what gets messed up is how we balance eternal perspectives of God. So I am like this. Compared to God, Im dirt, I know that, and I have earned one thing from God, Hell. I dont want to earn anything from God, I need his mercy, daily, secondly millisecondly (sp) The atoms that hold my body together need God’s mercy. I was a walking dead person spiritually speaking and God made me awake. Also God is soverign which is another way of saying He is the potter I am the clay etc.
I guess where I diverge is I dont hold this to other people, I cant see people like this, me I can because I know what I am, but others I cant see. That is something I always have struggled with. I still cant imagine how much grief Christ took on himself. I cant it was so totally heavy and I am so totally thankful. Please pardon the terrible theology.
E,
Use borax while you are praying.
London and dd, enjoyed your posts.Things said and done to people in the name of Christianity is frightening. I was at a fourth of July fireworks show and everyone was enjoying the fireworks, etc. When it was over a young man with a loud speaker in his hand started screaming at the masses of people to repent, the end of the world is near,etc. etc. He was so obnoxious, it was just horrible to watch. I walked up to him and said I think Jesus was more personal with people, but I don’t think he heard me over his roar at the crowd.I personally think that most of what is said and done by Christians “witnessing” is not lead by God at all. They make God sound like an abusive parent. It’s my way or else - some kids get burned by cigarettes, etc. for not doing what the parent wants. The spirit of God’s love just isn’t there.
Man I type way to much, sorry. As for Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort I use to really be bugged by these guys. The whole banana thing really got to me, but the more I watch them, the more I see their heart for people. From what I hear about Mr Cameron he is an utterly awesome father and husband, I am sure Pastor Comfort is to. The banana incident really is rather funny now, the atheist nightmare, LOL, it was not as good as the peanut butter atheist nightmare, that one is truly amusing.
Thanks Nancy! I googled it and ….. WOW!!
sola,
I think you just hit a home run…we’ll see if it gets picked up on.
“Personally, I think the main task Jesus accomplished on the cross was not the salvation of a soul from hell and death, but the restoration of a relationship with God that was broken in the garden. To me that’s more than just saving some one from hell’s flames. But hat do I know….”
I think you’re one of them smart fellas
Allow me to agree with Michael and BrianD regarding Sola’s post. Superb!
kat,
you called blue a punk? are you related to the lumber jack? lol
blue,
I like freako. Thanks for the suggestion.
do you know who I am?
gotta go peace.
bri - your first paragraph at 5:02 is EXACTLY right! The mixed messages that come from the church sometimes are so confusing. You put it really, really well!
Centy,….NOOOOO, I quoted Michael! NOT MEEEE. If it’d been ME, you KNOW I’d have used the word “jerk”. It’s me fave!
ok kat. didn’t read back far enough.
Michael,
been cutting down trees lately? lol
‘cept, centy, my daddy once told me the real meaning of ‘punk’ and it’s nasty!
duckin’ and runnin’ again
Fear/Love
Both have a profound influence on the human psyche. I have days when I am so completely enraptured in my adoption that I am in a “love trance”; other days I am filled with a terrible fear of God, and that too draws me into a deeper place of gratitude.
I guess what I am saying, is that they (Fear/Love) both cause me to pursue nearness to God. One draws me into intimacy and the other holiness.
Regarding the tacky approach some folk have to “witnessing”: When I was an “on fire” young sprout and went to Bible College, I was sitting around the first night with my new dorm sisters and we were sharing background stories. When I told them my parents were Christian Scientists, one ’sensitive’ soul pipes up “ya know they’re goin’ ta HELL!” I said, “no they aren’t” , she says “yes they are” and so on. I was in tears…first time away from home, feelin’ like a duck outta water. To this day, I will always love Elaine who said, (after the creep had left) “some people are SO tactless!” got hugs from all the remaining wimmin. I didn’t stay enemies with Miss Sensitive….she was just echoing what her AG missionary parents preached to her her entire life. She told another rather strange guy who dogged me daily with tracts and pamphlets regarding Christian Science ’til the day I left.
Also, never liked what I call “train wreck evangelism” even after (especially after) I got saved.
Diakonos, Good to see you. Hope you are doing well!
You too E
Erunner,
Don’t do the orange stuff - you will have a mess and it could stain your walls.
They have to drill holes on your walls and it is like squirting orange juice inside the walls.
Gas the little buggers like a man.
“Gas the little buggers like a man.” MLD
ROTFLMBOPIMP!!! Oh, MLD, my sides sooo hurt! An by the way, I sooo agree with you! Goin’ to get some windex for my computer screen!
MLD, That’s what I was looking for. A man’s advice!
Time for some NBA action. Bye!
Michael- you continue to demonstrate your ignorance/arrogance every day on this blog. You inflame for no reason- what is the purpose today of bringing up Heitzig- calling Skip a liar-using every opportunity to dredge up your bitterness against him- attacking bloggers by calling them punks-telling them to go screw- initiating a discussion that has led to attacks on a God ordained-biblically sound ministry (WOTM) for no reason other than to “feed the bloggers”.
Then you fall back on “PP prays” “PP does God’s work”- you want it both ways- you want a forum to attack brotehrs- but not be held accountable yourself- then when you don’t like what soemone posts (think Jackie Alnor) you just BAN THEM.
I seriously wonder why so many stick around here supporting you.
For ten years I was convinced my father went to hell and it was my fault because I did not witness to him enough. It was sort of like, dont help your “earthly” family I E if you love Jesus you will hate your earthy family. Then when he died “unsaved” ™ it was because you were not effective in your “witnessing” ™. You know it was not until this moment have I realized just how much I hate those people who taught me this, but I also realize I added to what they said to play some type of guild trip on me and I think others because basically I dont know how to grieve loss.
Thats why I am stuck. Most of my writing has really does seeth with resentment. I think I need to work on that.
Mark,
You’re a punk too.
Nobody has attacked WOTM, I even stated that the beloved one took his course.
I will attack Skip at every opportunity until I’m tired, then I will rest and do it some more until he’s out of the ministry.
I’m not the least bit bitter, I just don’t quit.
Jackie isn’t banned, she just hasn’t shown her noxious self around here lately.
I don’t miss her.
You would give aid and comfort to liars and thieves in the ministry…that is real sin.
Have a nice evening stewing in your juices, Mark.
Kuuuuuuuuuubayahhhhhhhhhh, my Lord…
(which, for those who don’t know, means “come by here”)
sometimes we are God’s beloved children, and sometimes we are His spoiled brats. Still He loves us. Jesus went to the Cross for us brats. I am grateful.
Mark…
Jackie pickets God-fearing churches, Skip, if nothing else, is an insensitive boob. A dear brother in Christ from my young years as a Christian pastored Ocean Hills….when Skip came along, he turned it upside down and backwards. I’m thinking they should speak for their own sins. Why defend those who hurt others for no good reason other than to salve their own fragile egos.
Nothing against you, brother, but these folk don’t seem to need help showing their arses to the world.
E…don’t I wish I looked like that while exterminating bugs
Here’s another option…
http://monkeyinfinity.com/yotm/images/uploads/chimp_termites.jpg
Bitterness … did someone say bitterness AGAIN???
Hi Michael…….
duckin’ for cover, but wavin’ still.
Fight the good fight, but don’t destroy yourself in the process. Glad you’re here. Wish someone had been back in my Melodyland days…..Might not have shipwrecked so bad.
Kat,
This is nothin…
Mark the punk hates me because we exposed his pastor and he hates truth.
Freak wanted to get some hits for his website and today he has gotten half as many as he had in his entire history.
That’s ok, but he’s not going to get away with insulting us in the process.
Mark,
Stop taking all the angst, I thought it was for me:). Well I guess I am not the “New punk on the block anymore”
Bluefreak57,
May I ask you a question?
Nancy,
Sure either here or email me.
Michael, if I sent you Betty Esses DeBlase’ book Survivor of a Tarnished Ministry,would you read it? Lot of stuff similar to some of the CC leadership. Guess I’m here partly because the similarity and prayer here is helping me recover from the shock.
kat
Bluefreak57,
Why do you think some of us here seem bitter? Not what we said that made us appear bitter but what caused us to be bitter in the first place?
Kat,
I appreciate the offer, but I have over a year of reading already scheduled.
I’m glad we’re of help…;-)
Bluefreak,
What a weird name.
puzzletop
Nancy,
I am not here to stand up for anyone or to be anyone’s advocate, I am not denying that you may have had a reason to become bitter. I just wonder how much we are being christlike when we hold onto this bitterness for a long time. We have an obligation to be right with God and right with man regardless of what they choose. Remember 70 x 7.
Puzzletop,
That is so unoriginal I know atleast a couple hundred people who use that moniker
Michael, you posted about Marsha after I e-mailed you but did not bother to warn me. Doncha think that would have been the courteous thing to do? I mean, DUDE! she’s a friend of mine! Okay, I’m pissed at you. I’ll get over it. Goin’ over to GCN with the other reprobates. “Glad we’re of help” is a pat on the head and I just HATE those!
Prolly gonna regret this….oh well.
Farfur is teaching Palestinian children the ABCs of terror on Hamas’ official television station, Al-Aqsa TV using a Mickey Mouse like Character.
The message seems to be working. Poems and songs submitted by young viewers contain violent imagery. “Rafah sings ‘Oh, oh,’” one caller says as Farfur mimes carrying a rifle. “Its answer is an AK-47.
Here’s a link to the video clip http://youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8&mode=related&search=
Bluefreak57,
I agree with you … there is no place for bitterness in a believers life. It should be greatly guarded against. It causes great harm if left to take root. I was just wondering if possibly you are focusing on the wounded and expecting more from those wounded than those who inflicted the wounds. I don’t know you so I have no idea if you are but I have seen others do that. I know from personal experience it causes great harm and my I add does little if anything to prevent a wounded person from becoming bitter. If anything it adds to the wounds … thus possibly adding to the risk of becoming bitter. If your goal is to warn & prevent people from becoming … or staying bitter you may want to consider listening to what happened to them. Do you understand what I mean?
Wandering Pilgrim,
what else would you expect from the “religion of peace”?
puzzletop
One last thing and then I’m done for awhile. Should have brought up the Marsha irritation when the thread was first posted. I look like a loon now. (so be it)
Guess I’m feeling marginalized all of a sudden. I hate with a passion being patted on the head. I’m fighting like hell to keep my equilibrium since learning some very painful truth. I do not now trust ANY preacher. It’s going to take awhile to stop wondering what they’re all hiding. I KNOW I must trust only God, but dang, the letdown really hurts! I knew the senior pastor screwed up, but the guy I considered the kindest, gentlest, funniest, most knowledgable, most respected, loved, etc. was a total fraud from day freaking ONE!
Goin’ ta Starbucks to chill out.
Nancy,
I am not here to inflict more pain and I would love to learn so that my expectations are not to high. The only thing is that I believe the root of bitterness cannot be pruned or simply cut down it must be ripped out for there to be true healing. Thank you for taking some time to respond.
Kat,
My elbow and forearms are swollen to twice their normal size at the moment.
That “pat on the head” hurt like hell to type.
You never requested confidentiality on the email about Stevens and indicated you didn’t know if it was blog appropriate.
I researched it, wrote it and it was a great thread.
I resent deeply the implication that I violated a confidence.
I can and will produce the email if need be.
Freak,
How come you have to describe peoples pain as sinful bitterness?
Who the hell are you to decide how and how long it takes people who have been badly wounded to heal?
That’s what creates real bitterness…against those who minimize the destruction caused by pastoral abuse.
Bluefreak57,
Thank you also. I agree with you once again … that’s why I talked about the importance of guarding against bitterness … and not letting it take root. If it does take root … yikes … ripping it out is no fun but must be done.
If I may ask … what did you mean by learning so your expectations were not too high?
I can’t help but wonder, if perhaps the PP citizens have become so callous to the idea of bitterness, that given that any of us actually were bitter, we would ignore it and deny it.
Really, when it comes to someone accusing me of sin, there’s two ways to react. 1. I can defend myself, insult the person, and explain why I’m not bitter, and so on. Or, 2. I can quietly check my own heart with the Lord, search things out just to make sure, and either repent, or quietly reassure myself that no bitterness has taken root.
I think the second option is best, in any case. To be honest guys, we gotta stop pretending like there is no bitterness AT ALL within the PP ranks. I know it’s irritating, and none of us really want to admit to it, but going just by probability alone, there’s probably a few of us who ARE bitter. That of course does not make it fair to characterize the whole community that way, or Michael, but still, it shouldn’t be ignored altogether.
An open request that I hope others take up: If I begin to sound bitter on here, for whatever reason, someone please tell me. I’d rather be openly rebuked, then quietly thought evil of.
-OYM
Michael,
I think it’s very possible … or at least it sure seems like the CC line of thinking is … if a person says something negative … anything … about a pastor … they must be bitter. It appears to be done with little to know evaluation of the situation … just must be so if anything negative is said. Like it’s a given … then the focus is off the problem being pointed out and placed on the one doing the pointing. I really think those that do this are sure they are doing the right thing because bitterness is a real problem. The problem is … so is abuse and that seems to get overlooked.
You guys just need to release the faith!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJBF8ggSlA
OYM,
Bitterness … as nasty and as damaging as it is in a persons life will only get worse if people rewound an already wounded person by accusing them of being bitter … even if it’s true. IMHO … it will not help a person to be healed from their bitterness. Understanding, compassion & really listening … people trying to prevent further abuse … that is what will aid in a person’s healing. Not further accusations.
One Young Man,
I don’t think people here in general are bitter - but that is in the eye of the beholder.
It’s when the community as a whole is criticized as being ‘bitter’ that I think is unfair, especially when ‘bitter’ seems to have been defined by some who have posted here in the past as being critical of Calvary Chapel and/or a particular pastor.
It’s like me saying all Word-Faith adherents are greedy. Or all Baptists are hateful.
It may be worth investigating if there is bitterness in the PP camp, but it’s just as much worth investigating how bitterness is actually defined - do they mean bitter or do them mean something else?
OYM,
You do realize, of course, that when you call someone is hurt bitter, that you reopen wounds and allow them to be feel abused all over again?
Tell ya what - get to know us, stick around for a while. If after a month or so, you think some folks are bitter, then call them out.
Guys like you, who come by here one day, do drive bys, tell everyone here that they know what’s going on in peoples lives, are the same type of person that their pastor was: uncaring and trite in your feelings towards others.
Telling someone “Get over it” is not counseling, its just not caring.
Pap - OYM has been around here for quite a while now. He’s not a drive-by.
Pap, OYM has been coming here for awhile and has offered some awesome insights in the past. If you dissagree with him on this thats cool, just thought I would point out that this isnt a drive by, and I am sure he did not mean to offend.
Nancy, I tend to agree. But God will not hesitate to use even annoying drive-bys to alert us to our sin.
Bitterness, like any other sin, needs rebuke at times. Even perhaps open rebuke. If I were wounded and bitter, I would want someone to let me know. Sure it is painful to hear the truth, but I hold fast to the scripture that says “Wounds from a friend are better than many kisses from an enemy”.
An analogy that I would draw, is like unto when a man breaks his arm. And then, after much time and healing, it is found that the bone did not heal right. The doctor then has to break the bone again, and once again put it into a cast so that true healing can commence. Talking to a person about their bitterness can indeed be painful, much like re-breaking an already broken bone, but it ultimately leads to the good of the person.
As in all things, there is a time and place for everything. The real matter, is deciding what is the right time, what is the right place, and so on.
-OYM
London is right - OYM has been around here awhile, long enough to learn the landscape and know us some.
BrianD, London, Eric, I appreciate all of you sticking up for me. Before I ever started posting, I was a lurker, and I have been an avid reader if not always poster on the blog.
Papias, I didn’t mean to offend. I was not adressing anyone in particular with my comment, nor was I accusing the community as a whole of bitternes, nor was I telling anyone to get over it. My only point was that the charge of bitterness should not be overlooked entirely. For some, there may be some truth to it. I just think we should check ourselves, and if we are clean, then good, and if there is sin, then we repent. No harm either way.
-OYM
OYM,
Very true … you bring up a good point. To add to your analogy … if anyone was to break a person’s bone again … before taking such drastic measures they better be very sure it is needed. They must be very aware of the facts including what is not visible on the surface.
I’ll stick up for Paps too…his comments are well worth considering for all of us.
OYM,
I think what many of us are responding to is bone re-breaking without all the facts … very harmful practice that should be stopped.
I agree Nancy. It’s probably best left to people who actually know the ins and outs of the situation rather than random drive-bys.
See, my way of thinking is this. If I accuse someone of sin, then I very often get nowhere, and I have accomplished nothing. But if I simply ask people to search their own hearts, then I have not embarrassed them or falsely accused them, rather I simply encourage people to check themselves according to the word and the Spirit, and thereby people are able to judge themselves, rather than me judge them.
It seems to me that people more often appreciate something challenging to chew over, rather than me chewing them out with something challenging.
-OYM
I don’t think there’s any sticking up needed. Paps and OYM just hadn’t met yet.
No biggie.
OYM,
Yes … giving people something to chew on rather than chewing them out … I like it!
It’s my own fault really. I tend not to be a casual poster. I usually read an entire thread, and then jump in with one or two posts that are really long. Thus, not everyone really would know me except for those who have been there at those here and there moments when I post something.
OYM,
The problem I see in your “search your heart, bro”, is that very question lends itself to a I-thou relantionship. You are setting yourself above that person, calling their words into question.
The worst person to be around is the guy who says, “I’m just here to help you out.” When what they mean is “I know what’s best for you.”
Papias, I am with you in this one.
Papias,
I see what you’re saying. But the only way I can put myself above someone, is if I become very specific with who I am talking to. On a blog like this, there are many many people. Thus, I all I do is give a general thought, and if it strikes a chord with someone, then cool, if not, then whatever. I am not attempting to call anyone specific out, but let my thoughts move who they’ll move, and not move who they’ll not move.
When it comes to a one on one situation, it all depends. If it is my friend, and I know them, and I say “search your heart”, I don’t see myself as being above them, but caring enough about them to ask them to check themselves. I would hope my friends would do the same for me.
See, the way I see it my friend, is that it can go both ways. I could be prideful with it, and set myself above the person, or I can come from a state of humility. But I don’t see my method as being either intrinsically humble or intrinsically prideful, but just useful.
If I am giving you the impression that I am prideful, and that I am coming from an uppity point of view, I ask you to forgive me. That is neither my intent, nor my heart in the matter.
I just like to offer thoughts that everyone can feasibly take something away from.
-OYM
Papias,
Good point. That is one of the traps the pastor fell into that abused me. I really believe he thought he was helping … yikes.
Good night everyone. Someone please handle the bitter meter for me so I can get some sleep … it’s past my bed time.
OYM said,
“When it comes to a one on one situation, it all depends. If it is my friend, and I know them, and I say “search your heartâ€, I don’t see myself as being above them, but caring enough about them to ask them to check themselves. I would hope my friends would do the same for me.”
That is all I’m asking for here, bro. Don’t call out all of PP, but call out your friends. And you might do that off the blog, rather than on it. That would entail you getting email addresses, begin a talk off blog, and gain trust.
One stride we have made here on the blog is that we tend not to broadbrush CC. We are sensitive to that. So when we get broadbrushed… look out. When you said “I can’t help but wonder, if perhaps the PP citizens have become so callous to the idea of bitterness, that given that any of us actually were bitter, we would ignore it and deny it.”
Maybe you didn’t mean to broadbrush everyone here at PP, but ya’ did.
“Left by Michael on May 8th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Kat,
My elbow and forearms are swollen to twice their normal size at the moment.
That “pat on the head†hurt like hell to type.”
Michael, I am incredibly sorry about your physical situation. I truly am. I know about real pain and it’s no fun. You are in my prayers.
“You never requested confidentiality on the email about Stevens and indicated you didn’t know if it was blog appropriate.” No I never requested confidentiality and that’s not what my irritation is about. You went to alot of trouble to research Marsha after I e-mailed you. The courtesy of letting me know you were about to post that info would have been just common decency…..good manners….being a freaking gentleman. That’s all. My last post said nothing about my asking for confidentiality. If you remember, I took a few hits for that one myself. NOT so easy around that time. ALOT of pain, and alot of good folk here who disagreed with me but were kind, including you.
“I researched it, wrote it and it was a great thread.” Good for you.
“I resent deeply the implication that I violated a confidence.” Had I MEANT to accuse you of violating a confidence I’d have come right out and freakin’ SAID it! I NEVER accused you of that!
“I can and will produce the email if need be.”
Your point? If it would make you feel better, go right ahead! I’m talking manners here and you accuse me of accusing YOU. That’s just so much bull! Inference? ME? Subtlety hasn’t really been my strong suit around here, has it?
I give up. You win. You’re the boss. Go ahead and freakin post the e-mail oh brave one!
I think when it all boils down to it, there is a time and place for everything. Saying “Check your hear bro” can be destructive, or it can be good. Telling someone you think they are bitter, can unnecesarily re-open the wound, or help the person heal in the long run. In everything, we need God’s wisdom so that we don’t stick our feet right into our mouths and look like fools by doing things even with good intentions that ultimately can hurt people.
I appreciate everyone’s opinion. You guys don’t know how valuable it is for me to learn from your experiences. Thank you all.
-OYM
Papias, again, it was not my intent to broad brush. As I said before, my words are not meant as a community-wide rebuke, but merely a thought for anyone in the community to consider. If I broad brush the PP, I broad brush myself.
Honestly Papias, I like working out my thoughts here on the PP. I try and emphasize them as just ideas, just thoughts, just possibilities, so that people will not take offence. Hence why I didn’t say “You know, we’ve all become really calloused and we wouldn’t know if we were bitter if it bit our behind”. I posted it as just a possibility, something to think about.
So, just take my words with a grain of salt, and assume the best of me. I really like it here on the PP and my thoughts are meant to be challenging, not offensive.
-OYM
OYM,
OK. Sometimes I post a thought that I think is so profound, and it gets nada, zilch.
Night all.
“I can and will produce the email if need be.â€
saved you the effort….e-mail below is verbatim:
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 08:16:21 -0800 (PST)
Dear Pastor Michael,
Pastor Chuck the Senior hurt Marsha badly and in my opinion it wasn’t warranted! Apparently for the Tent Revival thing Children of the Day was booked MINUS Marsha. The other members of the group sort of went to bat for her but caved and performed anyway when “Papa Chuck” refused. I’m enclosing the link to her website. The story of the incident in on her blog, dated March 4. Michael, they sang HER song, but left her out! I didn’t sleep so well last night. I know Marcia, she’s a good acquaintance. I know her heart and it’s STILL for Jesus. I also request that you check out the video section…”For Those Tears I Died” in particular. It’s very moving. I didn’t know if your blog was a fitting place for opinions on this matter. I know you likely get TONS of e-mail but I hope you respond. I’m torn apart by this. Had the opening night not already come and gone, I’d have been there asking where the heck was Marsha.
Thanks for your time,
Sincerely, Kat
OYM,
Healing takes time and not everyone is on a schedule. You need to know that and respect it. Forgiveness takes time. It all takes time.
But you also need to be sensitive to the fact there are real people here, not lab subjects for you to work your thoughts out on without any effect.
And when you set off a bomb, expect a reaction and deal with it; don’t tell us we should not be feeling a certain way when you may have challenged someone enough that they are going to let you know how they really feel about your statements.
Do not discount the worth and the lasting effect of the histories here.
Amen, Laura.
Michael
Thanks for letting us know about your condition. We’ll start praying about it immediately! I have a lot of pain in my right arm and hand. I’ll pray for you every time the pain stabs me!
Kat -
What’s up really?
If you want to talk offline then email me…
inlondonengland@yahoo.co.uk
OYM said: “I know it’s irritating, and none of us really want to admit to it, but going just by probability alone, there’s probably a few of us who ARE bitter. That of course does not make it fair to characterize the whole community that way, or Michael, but still, it shouldn’t be ignored altogether.”
Not sure how he called the whole blog out, simply stated it was a possibility. I take it for what it was meant as, I myself, and I am calling MYSELF out here, none else, have been bitter at times here. And there have been many times, like the past week where I took ime off because I felt that way. Funny thing is, speaking of bitterness, when someone attacks a whole group of Christians, it gets ignored at best. Yet OYM posts a statement, qualifies it by saying he is NOT calling out the whole blog. Then he gets attacked for calling out the whole blog, by numerous people.
Guess I am just bitter but this is a bit strange to me.
Hi Oden.
OYM
Earlier in the day you made a comment then followed it with this “Maybe I am still wet behind the ears”. You are a devoted follower of the Lord with a wonderful ideal toward scripture. But you are still wet behind the ears regardless.
I know and we all know that bitterness is an ugly sin. Most avoid it because we know the disruption it can cause to our relationship with God, it interrupts our prayers. But what do you do when everything you have done to avoid it fails and you find your self with bitterness as your constant companion. To say “just forgive and get over it” is a very harsh statement to make. The bible I read says we are to bear with one another ( Rom 12). Some times that’s the best thing we can do. To criticize a person who wants but struggles with forgiveness is to only make them feel worse. The better thing to do in my opinion is to listen, encourage along the lines of forgiveness, be understanding and restorative in the spirit of gentleness Galatians 6.
This if 35 years of experience talking here.
Diakanos,
I guess what I am saying, is that they (Fear/Love) both cause me to pursue nearness to God. One draws me into intimacy and the other holiness.
________________
You need to define your terms, then.
The Bible clearly says that “perfect love casts out all fear.”
Why would God want to cast something out of you if it was indeed a tool in his arsenal to draw you in?
Did I miss a memo? Did John MacArthur rewrite that passage? Someone needs to get me on that BIG-FAT-HAIRY-GOD-WHO-WANTS-TO-SCARE-YOU email list. I must have missed something.
=)
dd
Michael, praying for your hands and arms. Stay strong friend. You are not alone.
Oden, praying for you about your hand and arm.
DD, LOL. My Brother does this “Cold Evangelising” thing where they basically go out and bash people over the head with scripture. He isn’t very successful. Much better to listen for the still small voice, and let the Spirit lead you to whom you are to have the honor of speaking for God, than to take it upon oneself, and bash people until one relents. Is it a true conversion if it is done not from repentance and a truly sickened heart but rather fear?
That moderator in the picture at the top looks likes President Nixon.
Sola,
This blog is a great medium for change…but people will change in their own time.
It’s pretty much a waste of cyber-space to try to get someone to “just get over it.” Or to try to compel someone to change by lecturing them. A better way to communicate this is by relating how Jesus helped you get over the things you’ve dealt with. Or by sharing your heart and what God is doing in your life.
For me the greatest source of conviction and the most effective form of teaching has been by example…when I see men who truly love their wives it makes me want to be a better husband.
When I see pastors who are truly impacting people for Jesus it makes me take notice…I want to pastor like them.
Jesus gave few lectures but He communicated a lot by simply leading through example and loving people.
Love sums up the whole law…and it creates change.
i’ve had puter probs the past few days and i am headed to an artist conf. tomorrow. hope to talk with you all after sunday
mph
yeah. good encouragement
Han - have fun!!
Eric,
I was sitting with a friend one day at Starbucks, and we came up with the notion of “sacred listening.”
Too many people talking… myself included.
Too few people listening.
And guess what people REALLY want? They want someone to listen.
You really want to revolutionize your evangelism. Just sit and listen to people talk. They will pour out their hearts to you. They will tell you all you need to know to steer them in the right direction.
Here’s my tips for evangelism…
1. Listen more.
2. Treat people like you wish to be treated.
3. Stop listening to preachers and evangelists.
=)
dd
DD, Donald Miller wrote on that In “Blue Like Jazz” was an insightful book I thought. I truly loved the confessional Idea, where he and his cohorts confessed the sins of the churches past and appologized for not loving people Like Christ did. Awesome, and yes, listening, much the same with grieving folks, is the beginning of the healing process.
3. Stop listening to preachers and evangelists.
Got that right!
Hola, BrianD.
Another night in the trenches.
Yeah, Laura, another night…testing things….hearing the echoes in the hallways…talking to yourself
Brian D,
You may be talking to yourself, but you never know who is listening.
hey guys, can’t stay long, mid-term in the morning, but thought I’d jump on and say hi!
dd
You are right
I should have been more concise with my definitions when talking about something as indefinate as fear. The hebrew word “yare’” occurs 400 times in the Word of God, and the strange thing is, its a mixture of calling to and from. moses even once called Gods people to and away from fear in one sentence. Just like all things, I believe fear, when directed by the Holy Spirit is salutary; When motivated and directed by the flesh can become offensive.
Example:
Fear of displeasing God = beneficial
Fear of displeasing man = harmful
Because God calls us away from fear in one form can’t negate that He calls us to it in another.
I’m still here…debating whether I should stay up or go to bed.
any suggestions??
Dia- the fear of the Lord is the beginning of understanding. Salvation through fear of Hell rather than awe of God is what I sruggle with, is one saved simply because they had the fear of Hell put into them? Or are we saved through our reverant fear of a Holy God and our place in His kingdom?
k, off to bed, night all.
BrianD,
Sometimes talking to myself is the only way I get to talk to someone who understands.
I was finally getting around to cleaning out some drawers, etc, etc and found notebooks I had filled with bible study notes from 2001 to about 2005.
In those days I lived at CCCM - studies Sunday am, pm; Monday nite; Weds nite and Sat. nite.
Just thumbing through them, I suddenly realized why so many CC folk raise the bitterness issue in response to people sharing their stories and experiences here.
Complaining - about ANYTHING- is consistently taught to be a major sin. One that can even jeopardize your relationship with the Lord in a huge way.
According to Brian B, Chuck S, Don Mc, and the Skipper, it is tantamount to being ungrateful, unfaithful, unspiritual, rebellious….just like the devil.
Anything that happens to us is supposed to be cheerfully accepted as God’s will for us - ESPECIALLY if we are in ministry.
The children of Israel are repeatedly used as an example. Ties in perfectly with the Moses model. If something is making you unhappy in church, it must be because you are hankering for egyptian garlic and onions rather than how you are being fed and led by your God ordained Cc shepherds.
It was really weird seeing it all over throughout my notes - year after year…….
It has been a really tearful night as well going through my mom’s paperwork, med records etc. Sometimes it feels like she just died yesterday instead of 9 months ago.
I really miss my mom. And I really miss being a part of a church family. Feeling more grieved than rejoicing tonight. Could use your prayers.
Thanks and God bless each one of you.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..huh…what….?
Cool, Laura
I did manage to test something on a thread that is yet to go up and I can announce that we have a way now to post Google Video material on our threads.
Diakonos,
I wrote this post three times, trying to be nice and agreeable, but I couldn’t do it.
There is just no room for a positive spin on fear. That is like saying there is a good side to evil.
Fear is the enemy of faith. It is that which robs and steals from your potentiality in God.
There just is no such thing as healthy fear.
If you say to me that it is out of fear that you do things to please God, then I would suggest that you need to realign your image of God. Fear is Satan’s domain, not God’s.
No fears.
No beers.
No queers.
whoops… did I write that out loud? Oh well…
dd
Rejoicing-
I hear you. We will be here praying for you and with you.
It sounds like you are growing and healing. It’s not easy, but we’re here for you and, of course, He is there for you always.
Blessings,
PN
Far out, BrianD. I am off to bed.
And DD…
You have got the fear of the Lord issue all wrong. You mistake submission and respect for terror.
dd
In all fairness I think it is your definition of fear that needs to be tried. Mine is found in the Word, and it is simply reverential awe. You and I have hit this stalemate before, and it comes down to my view vs. your view of the scriptures. To me they are life, truth, compass and the power of God.
Lev 25:17
Therefore you shall not oppress one another, but you shall fear your God; for I [am] the LORD your God.
Deut 6 :2
that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged.
Deut 8:6
“Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.
before you say this is the old covenant…
I will pick up in the new….
1 Pet 1;17
Honor all [people]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
Rev 14:7
saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
and for good measure, because I am on a lifelong quest for understanding
Proverbs 9:10
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
this represents a VERY small percentage of what is found in The Word, but you know that.
I’m pretty Reformed in my views yet I still evangelize. For the sake of Christ Jesus I’m not a hyper-calvinist. I personally believe for those of you who have seen and heard Ray Comfort, and/or Kirk Cameron and ceer them on..so be it; AMEN! Yet for those who haven’t I encourageu to watch one of their DVD’s or listen to their CD’s like “Soundly Saved” or “Hell’s Best Kept Secret”–it seems to me many of you have stereo-typed it as “COLD evangelizing” or “bashing people over the head” type-stuff. I believe it’s what Jesus did and it is the sound biblical method of evangelizing.
BrianD or some other moderator, can you let me know if you’re still there please!!
Actually, I’ll just post it here.
I just got a note from Mrs. Dread asking that we all pray for Dread who is having a heart cath tomorrow.
He wasn’t feeling well and went into the ER and they’ve admitted him. She said they are both doing fine and would just like us to pray for him.
Thanks, will update you as soon as I hear any more.
L
Praying for Dread a speedy recovery and good results from his test tomorrow. Also praying for both Mr. and Mrs. Dread a peaceful night’s rest.
Diakonos,
Well, I agree… we need a definition squabble.
I say that all those verses mean that we need to reverence God, to be “in awe” of him.
I don’t think that word has anything to do with the “fear” that means “to be scared of.”
In fact, read those verses an insert “to be scared of” where it reads “fear” and see how that sounds.
“To be scared” of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom? I doubt it.
=)
dd
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Dread,
We pleafully petition the Author of our lives to redefine your health into wholeness, your situtation into nearness to God’s exacting presence, that human fear, if present, will bow in reverence to the Great Physician Healer making way for the Hand of Miracles to work His Love through you toward each other and those within your witness field. May He cover you in peace, absorb any pain, give you opportunity to glorify Him, and bring you back to us filled with wonder and rejoicing. To Mrs. Dread an extra measure a patience and blessed assurance.
With prescious incense…
Clean Hands Pure Heart and those who agree
Rejoicing,
Thank you for sharing about your notes taken at CCCM about complaining and how it was taught or should I say … drilled … that all complaining is sinful. I had my suspicions that was the case in some CC’s. There just seemed to be a very clear pattern of people coming in and very quickly throwing around the accusation of bitterness. I always find it odd that so many think they can see another persons heart so quickly & clearly. I have always found it very difficult to tell … even if I know a person very well … if they are bitter … or just angry. The Bible teaches bitterness is a sin but there is a time and a place for anger. I now see that in some CC’s anger & bitterness are treated the same way. It explains a great deal of why the “bitterness” accusation is used so freely. And … another reason why so many stay silent when they should be angry. Too bad so many have lost sight of the fact that anger against sin is not only important but necessary. Explains a lot … doesn’t it???
I will pray for you … pray that God will give you peace and happy thoughts/memories about your mom. I lost my dad just before my tenth birthday and I still miss him. Nine months isn’t a long time … it will get easier to remember the happy times with joy. Keep rejoicing … and the joy will follow.
Laura,
Good 11:43 post … well said about fear … mistaken submission & respect for terror. You nailed it!
To counteract the “driveby poster” label. And to also prove that this was not some PR stunt to get more hits on my blog I leave the following:
I am not trying to tell people to heal in a certain fashion or length of time, nor am I referring to all pain as bitterness. Bitterness is the incessant need to define ourselves by the pain or hurt that has been inflicted. If we have been hurt it is apart of us and should be reflected in our testimony, but I don’t think that true healing can take place if we never move past the hurt. We must forgive as Christ forgave us (notice I said WE). Forgiveness is a choice as are all things in life, not an easy one but one that must be made if we want to grow in our relationship with Jesus.
Bluefreak,
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3483/bitterdove9nb.jpg
Bluefreak,
Once again … we agree. Forgiveness is a vital part of healing but here is where we may differ … forgiving someone does not mean we are to just always move on leaving a potentially dangerous situation behind. It is our responsibility to sound a warning at times. I forgave the abusive CC pastor long ago … that does not mean I have given up trying to stop him from continuing to hurt others … including himself.
Bluefreak57,
Actually at this point I am having trouble … fighting within myself ever now and then … to remain compassionate towards this problem. At times it seems so clear to me just how off this pastor is that I find it hard to have compassion towards those who are in harms way. My mind tells me at times … they should know better by now … it’s their choice to be there. Thankfully so far my heart reminds me to have compassion. I pray I never stop being compassionate no matter how visible the problem is. I should still care that they are in harms way … even if it appears they are blind by choice.
Nancy,
Each one of us has convictions towards things, and regardless of how others think or feel we will follow them. I am not going to patronize you by saying “I know what you are saying, Or I have been there”. I just would hate to see someone who is so focused on pain that they miss the joy that Christ can and will bring. I think of the prophet Jeremiah, who had it real bad and yet found solace in the goodness of Christ. Even when all was wrong around him, the leaders, the people. He remained steadfast in the Lord’s care.
Dustshaker,
Nothing like a large glass of Dovenade
Bluefreak57 is right. There is a time to be angry, and even good reason for being bitter, albeit bitterness is never a good place to be.
I heard Maya Angelou say this, “that bitterness feeds on the host and does nothing to the carrier/inflicter. It is okay to be angry, but never okay to be bitter.”
If I already wrote that, it bears repeating. Because it is easy to cloak your bitterness in righteous indignation.
Nothing is more devastating than being hurt by someone in a religious context. So much of our idealism and eternal positioning is caught up in these things. So, by all means, be angry… even bitter… but make sure it is only for a season, however long that is defined for you to be.
But make no mistake… you cannot live where some of you have made your homes. Not for long, anyway.
adieu,
dd
“punk” - a man in prison on the receiving end of unwanted affection.
“bug” - To annoy; pester. A defect or difficulty, as in a system or design.
Laura..10:57..
I’ve been told only the most intelligent people talk to themselves, and I believe it!
Every time I see this photo, I have to remind myself that Richard Nixon is not moderating the “debate”.
“The children of Israel are repeatedly used as an example. Ties in perfectly with the Moses model. If something is making you unhappy in church, it must be because you are hankering for egyptian garlic and onions rather than how you are being fed and led by your God ordained Cc shepherds.”
This kind of thing used to make me sick. Most CCs I’ve been to do it. It’s the worst “bible teaching” I’ve ever had come in contact with, and just another reason I avoid CC at all costs.
Hmmf - sorry you had that experience.
Doulos, thank you, it really was a bad experience and avoiding it brought the restoration of my joy in the Lord.
… just making a friendly observation here, but I think that everyone on the BF57 blog.. and the SMP blog.. and the Sour Patch Kids blog… ARE BITTER.
Hmmmffph..
actually, there is worse bible teaching out there than that. How about the “gold filling revival craze”.. they used:
Psalm 81:10 (NKJV)
I am the Lord your God,
Who brought you out of the land of Egypt;
Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it.
That’s gotta be worse than the doctrinal usage you quoted, which is a good analogy on why “some” folks leave church.. but not a good analogy on why all folks leave church.
Some folks leave CC, because they opened their mouth, and didn’t get fillings.
Bitter is good!
Is bitter so bad?
On the passover plate, the Hebrews would include bitter herbs to remind them of their enslavement to Egypt.
I think bitter is how you perceive it. If we’re bitter because we’re still dwelling on the slavery instead of God’s goodness, that’s a bad place to be.
If we’re bitter because we want to help bring others out of slavery to a human taskmaster, then I say “rock on and go with God”.
Good Morning Liberated…how goes it this fine AM?
“Some folks leave CC, because they opened their mouth, and didn’t get fillings.”
Some folks leave CC, because they opened their mouth, and got garbage shoveled in.
Linnea,
I’m feeling too good. I think I’m going to go get some Sour Tarts so I can feel bitter.
Rock on with your bad bitter self???? I don’t remember “bitterness” being one of the fruits of the Spirit…
Sometimes we open our mouths here at our CC, and chicken gets shoveled in… and mashed potatoes.
Interesting thing about comparing CC to the “God’s billionaires” preachers is that, it’s obvious that the ones preaching billionaire lifestyles are wrong. Don’t need much discernment to come to that conclusion. But CC is the “reverse God’s billionaires”. The exact polar opposite of expecting God’s blessings. In most CCs I sat in, it was basically preached to expect God’s curses.
I think both are whacked, but CC is the worse Bible teaching because the aforementioned billionaires are obviously wrong, whereas CC is deceptively wrong.
Tommy O’Keefe,
I don’t remember being a liar, thief or womanizer being listed among the qualifications to be a pastor. But you Calvary Chapel types seem to use that as one your hiring standards.
Cleanse your organization of those people and perhaps the PP people will flush away their “bitterness”
You buddy are the problem!
forgiveness heals bitterness.. or, at least that’s the lesson I got from watching Spiderman III. He put on the red suit and forgave sandman. This would be a happier world if we all just put our red suits on and forgave our sandmans.. -I think there’s stuff in the Bible about this too.. but it’s hard to see that stuff when you’re wearing the black suit.
Some of us left CC with no bitterness at all. Sadness mixed with a little anger because you are without a church and you don’t look forward to church shopping when you thought you had found the church you very well were hoping to remain in until you either moved away or died.
The fact that some of us have had to leave is not an easy thing to process. It takes time. It certainly isn’t a topic to make light of.
see what I mean.. MLD is wearing his black suit.. “Ring them bells MLD.. Ring them bells!!!!”
Hmmf,
If the billionaire preachers are so obviously wrong why are so many following them?
simple,
What a whitewash job!
Forgive the unrepentant sinner and everything will be OK
Oh great. The Gospel according to Spiderman. Pardon me while I dry heave into unconsciousness
Liberated, many follow the billionaire preachers because people love to have their ears tickled. The fact that the billionaire preachers are wrong, doesn’t make CC right.
smp: sometimes we’re the ‘red suits’ but just need time to get over whatever ‘ails’ us. I myself am a work in progress who objects to being or feeling marginalized. Likely I will leave here as I don’t want to cause trouble, but my concerns were legitimate at least to me.
Michael, Freak’s post to “Bob” this morning should prove he’s no “punk”.
Tommy..I say rocking on with your bad bitter self and being honest is far better than putting on your party face and living in denial
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Timeless words.
I once attended a home group w/some folks who were watching some kind of video which taught the gospel according to Jed Clampett. It’s amazing how you can find spiritual treasure if you dig deep down into that cement pond.
Since y’all are so edgy and short-fused.. I’ll take my light-hearted banter to Staples and buy some dry erase markers.. bye.
simple,
You don’t need dry erase markers. You are good at covering up with whitewash!
I’m not bitter, I just don’t like Spiderman’s devil-horn sign on my children’s lunchbox
SMP,
I prefer the term sour as opposed to nitter
Nitter should be Bitter typo
Liberated…my youngest is partial to Warheads…it’s oh so sour (one might say bitter) and someone is making a killing selling it to tweens and teens.
Go ahead, stop at a convenience store at lunch and splurge on some. Just the quizzical look from the clerk will make your day
Chad(smp),
I find it amazing that you as a pastor can come on this blog, after having dumped all over it on your blog, tell people here some of the most hurtful things imaginable, all in the defense of the CC mothership.
Simple minded indeed.
You should go back to your nice blog, where only happy, pro CC thoughts are allowed.
ohhhhh, what a slam. Now I’m really bitter because somebody called me a whitewasher..
Morning, everybody.
Wow, we’re off to a rousing start!
Someone referenced bitterness….Dusty awarded the Bitter DoveTM and BlueFreak gulped down some ‘dovenade’….then the smp guys showed up…and now hmmf is accusing Spidey of having a devils horn sign
Spidey doesn’t have a devil horn sign, he has a spider sign on his chest…Marvel Comics 101, true believers….
Where’s JJ when you need him?
papayas.. i’ve never dumped on this blog on my blog.. others have, and i’ve diverted such conversations. My whole concept of my blog has nothing to do with PP, nor is it responsive to PP.. but, thanks for another generalized accusation..
BrianD, I was referring to the hand signal with the index and pinkey.
I know I’m inviting scorn upon myself for pointing it out, but it’s the same sign done by heavy metal bands, George W Bush, and world leaders everywhere. I believe there’s something to it, and if that makes me a nut, so be it
I don’t think something like Spiderman is without some form of worldly (non-Christian) propaganda
simple,
I didn’t call you a whitewasher - you are a whitewasher.
Put a little whitewash on Skip and his sins go away
Put a little whitewash on Mike K and his sins go away
Put a little whitewash on people’s hurts and it goes away
Kat,
You were not being marginalized.
I am sincerely glad when people recover here, thats the point of the work.
I only have so many key strokes a day that I’m able to make and the brevity of the comment was not a reflection of the sincerity of the sentiment.
If you’re upset that I didn’t email you back months ago, you have my apology.
I get hundreds of emails every day and most of them don’t get answered or answered much after the fact.
I’m one very flawed man trying to make a difference.
MLD,
Thou rockest this morning…
Papayas.. here’s what I’ve said about PP on SMP
http://simplemindedpreacher.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/blogging-with-the-enemy/
OH yea.. MLD… well you smell like cheese and listen to the Backstreet Boys…
Chad,
When the CT story came out you and your buddies blamed us for the whole debacle and started what you hoped would be a mass exodus of CC pastors from the PP.
You created your site then advertised the hell out of it here to get some traffic.
You are being disingenuous at best with your comments…when will you guys decide to deal with the real issues instead of trying to shut off the critics?
I already know the answer…
hmmf, I haven’t seen spidey3 yet…and I don’t consider movies to be the definitive version of any comics character…if you saw the George Clooney-as-Batman movie you’d agree
I was about to bring that up about the hand sign…but Bush used it because it’s supposedly a hand sign used by folks in Texas: it’s the ‘hook-em-horns’ sign and seems to be associated with the University of Texas Longhorns athletic teams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hook_‘em_Horns
And as far as dry heaving yourself into oblivion over the Gospel according to Spidey…I am sure Michael and MLD can come up with much better suggestions