Let's get the nonsense out of the way first.
I am signed up with an outfit that keeps track of the traffic here and part of their service is providing me with a list of search terms that people use to find us.
Over the last couple of weeks the #1 search has been for Brian Michaels.
Over the weekend one of his defenders showed up questioning the accuracy and veracity of the information we have here on the site.
I stand by the stories we did and should others choose to pour gas on this smoldering fire I'm more than willing to defend my information and intent with vigor.
I do not and have not followed the antics of Michaels, Heitzig, Kestler or the rest of folks we exposed.
That ministry was needful at the time, but in my mind they and those who support them are totally irrelevant to what Christ is doing in His church today.
My time and talent (what ever that may be) is far better used ministering to the Body of Christ and using this site to feature those men whose heart is for God and His people.
I want the young men like Couch and Murphy to become as well known for their ministries as these others have become known for what they have done.
I want the seasoned men of God like Walden and Duncan to be on my readers minds for their wisdom and heart.
They are the ones who are relevant, they are the ones whose labor for the Lord is worth notice and emulation.
They are the ones who are striving to incarnate the Spirit of God in their communities and churches.
We can focus on either group, the ethically challenged entertainers or the ministers of Christ…and I'm going with the ministers because that's where you'll find the Spirit.
Having made myself clear, let me be clearer…don't push me into a corner unless you're ready to stay there for awhile.
On to other nonsense…
The mailbag has been busy with people who are very angry about my enjoyment of "The Shack" .
One correspondent even claimed that the book was causing his church to split, another claimed that he had discerned that the characters in the book had demonic names and it was a Trojan Horse for the devil.
Spare me.
It was a book of fiction, not a systematic theology and it touched me.
If you're not spiritually able to enjoy fiction, don't read it.
Yet more nonsense…
Mike Huckabee supports Kenneth Copeland against the Senate investigation.
That link will take you to video clips with Copeland telling of Huckabee's undying devotion.
Why is Mikey so devoted?
"Republican hopeful Mike Huckabee reached out to a questionable funding source this week—Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland, one of the targets of a Senate Finance Committee investigation into the funding and governance of "prosperity gospel" ministries.
At Copeland’s annual by-invitation-only Minister's Conference at his Newark, Texas, headquarters Jan. 23, Copeland received a call 
during the meeting from Huckabee requesting emergency financing. According Doug Wead, former Bush family evangelical adviser, Copeland and his supporters at the conference raised $111,000 in cash for Huckabee, with about a million dollars in pledged donations, after he temporarily adjourned the conference and then reconvened the group as a "private meeting."
Wead relayed a report in his blog from a source at the meeting that "Last night [Jan. 23] the Governor called his friend in the middle of a conference and Copeland, carefully observing all the laws governing non profits, as a private citizen, re-convened a private meeting, turned to his friends and raised a few million dollars for Huckabee." (See "Mike Huckabee’s Big Mistake")"
According to video clips of the conference obtained by Trinity Foundation, an investigative watchdog group in Dallas, Copeland revealed that Huckabee had pledged his total support to Copeland's ministry while dismissing the Senate investigation."
This tells me everything I need to know about the faith and character of Mike Huckabee.
Finally, some comic relief…
Michael - Speaking of the Grassley Five - did you see the Wittenburg Door’s funny - and not so funny - clips of all of them, along with a bonus one of the Hinns? Here’s the link:
http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/doortv-hinns
Marie,
I did …I wish we could post them all.
I cannot fathom why in world people support them.
I read the Shack. Liked some parts; disliked others. But like you said, it’s a piece of fiction…not a place from which to derive our theology. I’m a bit surprised at the amount of emotion people on either side of the spectrum show with it.
On the Huckster (as other boards are wont to call him), that meeting says a lot. He might last till Super Tuesday, but if he comes in 4th in FL (which is likely), he’d be wise to drop out…he doesn’t have much of support beyond a small percentage of evangelicals.
On Michaels, I think you’re wise. Spend your time ministering to the Body…it’s far better spent there.
Doulos,
You’re one of the guys I think of when we talk about what’s really going on in the Kingdom.
You’re following your call and bearing fruit…the rest is skabulon.
Michael,
I will come out of hiding, and go to the mat with you over this issue. Most of you have heard what I’m going to say, but at the same time, some are new here. Whatever the case, it bares repeating. When the issue of restoration to the ministry after a fall rather it be sexual in nature or something else, the argument used by some is, God forgives, why can’t you? Or, God has called the person to pastoral ministry, who has the right to disqualify that call?
Restoration to the ministry should never proceed restoration to God, family, and those who were hurt because of the sin. The problem today is the pastor who feels the only restoration necessary is the restoration to the pulpit. The issue is not whether the person has been forgiven the issue is trust! When a pastor violates the trust of the people God has called him to serve, he should never even think of returning to the ministry until he broken before God. IMO, that takes time. I will not give a timetable, but again I would say the restoration process should include, but not be limited to, the following:
1. Seeking forgiveness from God
2. Seeking forgiveness from family
3. Seeking forgiveness from the church family
The person should understand that while seeking forgiveness from immediate family and church family, they owe him nothing. While the Bible is clear that we should forgive those who sin against us, whether people choose to forgive is between them and God. Too many pastors feel that all they need to do is say they are sorry and then life should return to normal, and if it doesn’t, it’s the people’s fault because they refused to forgive and trust again.
There are differences of opinion over whether a pastor should return to the status of senior pastor particularly after sexual sin. But there should be no debate about those who desire to return before real restoration has taken place.
Bob,
Thank you!
One of the things I’m proudest of is that we were able to give you a platform to speak to this critical issue.
For newcomers, you can download a sermon Bob gave on Biblical restoration that has become a standard on the subject in many churches around the world.
It’s at the top of our “Pages” section.
This past year I read a book on how to cast spells and a book on How to become a Wicca.
I thoroughly enjoyed both books and learned much from them. I would never allow criticism of my reading list to affect me.
Besides, I now know how to cast a spell on them so they had best watch out.
Michael, if you need any tips, let me know.
BTW
I still enjoyed the Shack. If churches are dividing over that book, they were going to split over something else eventually. Ridiculous!
While I have enjoyed the new pp, I still feel there are times when wrong needs to be addressed, and I hope that it still will be. We cannot, and should not, stick our heads in the sand and pretend that it will go away.
Don’t lose the passion Michael!
If what that blog says about Huckabee is true, then he is doublely guilty. First, for taking money to look the other way in a Senate hearing. Second, being a SB pastor, he should not being going to the “name it and claim its” for money or anything else.
As far as Micheals or any of “the others” that have been discussed here, its good that we take a breath and remember that some folks are just drive bys and newbies to the blog. I used to get such a kick out of the “Joe-ites”… :0
Michael, for fiction reading, its good to get “away from it all”.
Michael,
Small word of encouragement. I am one of the ones that arrived at your site by searching on “Brian Michaels”. I attended BM’s (not gonna comment on those initials :D) for eight years up until just after he left RMC and subsequently resigned in Las Vegas. Without dwelling on it, I was crushed to hear how he was responding to his restoration.
Arriving here at PP was divinely directed. I have learned so much here and have felt restoration (slowly) in my own life in terms of my disgust with the church.
So…. Thanks!
Bob,
If I am called to address a situation like we did before I will.
The difference will be that I won’t do it alone, but I will solicit input from the men here before proceeding.
I’m not settled on on of this, but we will do what we’re called to do.
NMA,
One of the things that is keeping me up nights is wondering if I’ve gone too far away from what we did in the past and that I am neglecting folks like you who were in need of hearing what was happening and being part of a community that cared.
Right now, I have such large issues happening in my own life that I can’t give the subject the attention it deserves in prayer.
I am concerned though and I do appreciate your kind words.
Do we now have the ability to judge ones heart to see if they are truly repentant? who then should decide when a person is restored in his relationship with God? I mean if a persons relationship with God is personal how do you know if he has truly repented? I would like to agree with you and say dogmatically this is true or that is true but I don’t believe it is that easy. There is allot more to penance than meets the eye. I think we need to be careful not to be to quick to judge, especially when it comes to Gods shepherds.
Bob Sweat,
Good words … both 10:42 & 10:53 … well said!
servant1,
In the situations we dealt with here there was a trail of damaged people as far as the eye could see in every direction.
They are the ones who should be aware of real repentance and be the ones who restore fallen men.
We are not judging by anything other than biblical standards…one’s repentance should be as well known as their sin.
Michael,
I thought you were being offered bait the other day, and I’m glad you didn’t bite.
I encourage you, bro…let the Holy Spirit lead you. As Chuck Smith says, if man builds it, he has to maintain it, and IMO when you battle some people in the church your mission better be ordered by and led by the Spirit.
In the meantime everyone….DON’T WAKE THE DOG!
http://www.adoptarott.com/support_needs/frankie_sleeping.jpg
http://www.life.sci.qut.edu.au/epping/personal/Jerry/3235.jpg
Cause if you do…you never know where that dog’ll show up:
http://www.beppegrillo.it/immagini/mail_dog.jpg
Well said Michael!
Michael
Your 11:08 - Wise decision!
servant1 - Do we have the ability to judge a man’s heart? Certainly not. However, when a pastor refuses to submit to the counsel of his elders after a sin, choosing to return to the pulpit, that should be questioned.
A few SBC blog commenters dared to criticize SBC pastor Dwight McKissic for appearing on TBN’s Praise the Lord to discuss his belief in the continuation of the gift of tongues (never mind he appeared with two other SBC pastors, not Paul and Jan and Benny and their grey-haired-posse that always shows up for the Praiseathon).
I wonder what they’ll say about Huckabee and Copeland?
Michael,
… “The difference will be that I won’t do it alone” …
VERY VERY WISE!
Thanks, folks.
My point is just this…we have so many good men and ministries to support and learn from that as much as we’re able, we should be about better things.
I know that someday the phone will ring or I’ll get an email that will call us back to our roots.
I’ll respond…we will always respond to those who are hurting and we will always fight those who inflict damage in Jesus name.
I just hope that next time we have a lot of help and the battles are short.:-)
Michael
Amen to your 11:34!
Now this sleeping dog will return to slumber.
Ok - I just gotta ask, what’s “skabulon”? I googled it & just came up with some stuff on the Danish version of Wikipedia.
Doulos,
It’s Greek for “poop”.
Michael, thanks for the Huckaberry story. I followed that link to the Wittenburgdoor and Wead sites.
Those clips of Copeland are a trip man. Copeland said he’d go to prison and suffer Capital punishment before he gave up the names and amounts given by his donors to Grassley (?) He must of been taking an offering at that time
I was thinking while watching that, why didn’t he just confess that it would never be God’s will for him to suffer in prison and the electric chair!
Ahh…Philippians 3:8. got it…thanks!
Hey Michael. Thanks for the great cartoon this morning. Hahaha. Great laugh.
I’m sure the “right” thing will “wake the dog” when needed. Meanwhile, don’t lose much needed sleep over leaving your roots. Roots don’t necessarily show on the surface
Your concern for drive bys and babes is very good.
PS I found your site by looking for Pimental
RE: Restoration of pastors. Recently, at Mount Olivet, Pastor Martin used the example of the teenager who while driving Dad’s car, gets into big trouble and seriously damages the car. Obviously, that kid won’t be driving Dad’s car again real soon and will do some “extra chores” to demonstrate his future trustworthiness.
I felt that was a great, common sense “parable” from life that we all can relate to.
As to how we can “judge” whether someone is repentant or restored in their fellowship with God, how about “you will know a tree by it’s fruit”? When a fruit tree is severely pruned, it takes several seasons for the tree to grow enough to recover and “prove” what kind of fruit it will produce. Logical.
The “roots” here are restoration & prayer.
Take a look out my back door this morning. Pretty cool! http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2960/img6632pv1.jpg
Scott,
we’ve got a ton of the white stuff here as well…it’s pretty, but it can go away now.
diakonos,
Amen!
Bob, I must have misread the Nt, I have never read a passage that gave an elder authority over a Shepherd. I’m sorry, I don’t believe in hirelings. A Pastor should lead with accountability true but not oversight. he should be in submission to the Lord and the elder board should be in submission to the head Pastor. If the Head Pastor is in Sin he should resign or be placed on leave until penance is made but the elders should never have the power to usurp pastoral leadership.
ScottH - beautiful view!
I get sad when our roots are spoken of in a derogatory tone.
The oppostition this place has faced over the years doesn’t define it.
Now I know most reformers will argue that I’m wrong and yada yada yada but I disagree and I’m not looking for a debate just telling it how I see it. I believe in a Pastoral leadership.
servant1,
Can you show me anywhere in the NT that supports your comment?
servant1 -
In your scenario, who places the pastor on leave?
servant1
I don’t believe in hirelings either. You wrote:A Pastor should lead with accountability true but not oversight. he should be in submission to the Lord and the elder board should be in submission to the head Pastor. If the Head Pastor is in Sin he should resign or be placed on leave until penance is made but the elders should never have the power to usurp pastoral leadership.
Too bad for some churches that never happens! And please don’t patronize me.
The problem is that many pastors interpret shepherd as king. I have seen too many out-of-control pastors hide behind “I’m not a hireling”. Makes me sick!!!
Mark Driscoll’s latest sermon, on grace, is available on iTunes.
Doulos, It was like a winter wonderland here last night, very beautiful. However, treacherous to drive in.
I was in Portland yesterday and decided to leave early so that I would get home to Southern Oregon before dark. Man, I’m glad I did!
“Elders should never have the power to usurp pastoral leadership.”
Never is a big word!
That statement belongs in the dung pit!
servant1:
You need to re-read the essential passages of church leadership. The hireling idea is something from tradition. Additionally the idea of a senior pastor being over the elders has no basis in scripture, again a tradition. And Moses ended with Moses, one time deal.
A pastor is an elder and is required to submit not just to other elders but to the body as a whole. Yes I can back it up with scripture, but the challenge is yours to look up.
Doulos~ “In your scenario, who places the pastor on leave?”
Uhhh, would that be the Grassley Commission?
A church split over the Shack?
Nonsense Dread
ScottH,
LOL.
We actually got snow in the last week or so here in TX, obviously nothing stuck. It was pretty cool getting to see some big flakes, though. I think it’s 50-something outside right now.
Pastors who are true servants of the Lord are not concerned about whether they are a hireling. But again, that’s the problem. Too many power hungry pastors, so concerned about not being a hireling, that they forget what being a servant is all about. I have said many times, that the best model for pastors, and for that matter every follower of Christ is set forth in Philippians 2:1-8. Can’t you just hear Paul crying out………”I’m not a hireling!”
servant1,
Like Bob said … too many pastors hide behind the hireling thing … makes me sick as well … and for good reason. Please do as Drew suggested … please re-read the essential passages on church leadership.
Wow … do I have a story to tell you … yikes.
Thank God for you pastors that recognize your own fallibility. I don’t think any of y’all want the Pope’s gig.
ScottH,
Nice view … thanks for sharing!
I believe we are in a time when the Spirit is laying an axe to the power structures built by megachurch traditions of the last 30 years.
The all powerful senior pastor who’s word is from the heavens will be a thing of the past as next generation leaders and church planters build teams instead of dictatorships. The younger guys who try to find pastor/king in the scripture let alone try to sell it to their peers and future congregants face a difficult journey.
Pastor,Pastor,
I so soooo hope you are correct. May it be so Lord … may it be so quickly.
Px2,
You’re right and we’re witnessing that all over the place.
God is getting us ready for a new move of the Spirit…
Marie Natha: Thanks for the link. Where did Benny get that comb over? Wow. Holy Ghost enema? If he did we would certainly lose all these fools quickly!
Honestly, how can anyone think that these fools are representative of the One True and Living God?
Nancy,
It will be slow because sharing power is a difficult thing, let alone releasing power. I have hope however as I see the SMP guys opening honest discussions about such things. Church infrastructure is only as biblical as it is biblical. The problem is the neo-corporate, psuedo-CEO, Donald Trump (not Moses) model of “Company” traditions that we have blanketed with scripture and called it church. It will take strong young leaders to challenge it and older wiser men to ratify it.
Pastor X2
That was a divine declaration.
My spirit bears witness.
Ok… I have a question. My family and I have been visiting a small CC church plant (second campus of a larger church).
How could I find out this pastor’s convictions on pastoral accountability? Just come right out and ask him?
Michael,
just been lurking lately…can’t hardly believe that there is still such hostility, ignorance, and arrogance over “The Shack.” Despite the broken record, “It’s a work of fiction, it’s a work of fiction…” for many it seems more a work of friction. The novel evidently rubbed some people the wrong way. By some of their claims, these critics appear to be authors of fiction themselves. Perhaps they ought to get off their asses and get involved in some real ministry so they aren’t merely pains in someone else’s. We’ve all got plenty to do to reach this troubled and dying world besides gripe about novels and readership. How Jesus must roll his eyes sometimes.
NMA,
That’s what I would advise and I would advise doing it now.
NMA
Ask him what he feels about the Moses Model.
fil,
I thought it was funny until people just got loopy over the book.
In a world with so many lost and so much pain, there are far greater battles to fight.
NMA
Why not?
NMA,
Ask him respectfully but open a discussion directly. If he stonewalls or acts immediately threatened you have your answer. If he is open and free to talk about it, you probably have a good one on the line.
pastor pastor,
absolutely dead on target.
Px2,
The great, great thing is that God has those younger men and older leaders in place all over the Body…we will have a shaking soon, then these men will rise to their calling.
First, the shaking….
NMA,
I agree with Pastor, Pastor. Just ask him straight out (with respect). Someone who’s open to accountability has no problem speaking about it.
Pastor,Pastor,
Any advice as to what can be done to help bring this about. I’ve been praying a long time … wonder if I could be doing more. Any thoughts … anyone else have any thoughts???
Px2 et al,
Thanks, I’ll do it.
NMAlien,
I’ll be praying for you …
Nancy -
I might be confused as to what you’re asking. Are you asking what you can do in regards to your old pastor & church?
No Doulos … yikes … sadly that would be suicide. My question is … What can be done … if anything … to help bring about the needed change for those more willing.
NMA said, “How could I find out this pastor’s convictions on pastoral accountability?”
If it were me, I would also ask for a church financial statement.
But I’m like that ~ weird!
Nancy,
It’s already happening.
The dialogues that are taking place and the conviction of the Holy Spirit are bringing changes all over the country.
I can’t talk about all of them or even most of them, but there are radical steps being taken as we speak.
For instance … the last CC I attended is a younger church … possibly a pastor who is more open to the needed changes. We all talk about it here … and places like it … but I’m not sure how much of this has reached this area.
Uh … I should mention my former abusive pastor played a large part in planting the church. It’s a bit tricky around here …. uggg.
Michael,
In this part of the east coast too??? It usually takes at least a couple years for changes or new ideas to make it around these parts … sometimes that’s good .. sometimes not. It really is a mixed bag … sometimes it give the really wacky stuff a chance to fizzle out before it even gets here but in this case .. I’m really praying there is little to no lag time.
Nancy -
If it provides any hope, you may be interested to know that Chad (SimpleMindedPreacher) is in VA…so there’s definitely a move in the Eastern Time Zone along the lines of what you’re saying.
Thanks Doulos … I did remember that. That has been an encouragement. VA is not that far away … relatively speaking … but I still don’t know if the circle of those talking about the needed changes has made it this far.
Nancy,
It’s coming because it is a wind blown by God…hang on, He’s coming.:-)
Michael,
Thanks … you are right … the normal statistics will be blown away. I’m hanging on with His help …
Nancy,
I find that one of the hardest things to do is to see the church a bit as God looked upon His nation, as generation to generation as well as King to King. Good ones, bad ones, they all came and went. The megachurch movement, Jesus Movement, CC, Vineyard etc. are only 35 to 40 years old and are responsible for many ministry philosophies including the role of super senior pastor. Great things have come from these groups but not all of it. Old movements can give birth to new thinking or they can die in “childbirth.” I think that we will see a little of both. We all like to think that Jesus is coming soon but what if He tarries and the Mega-guys have to face letting go. I think they had better get in some practise letting others lead in case Jesus lets the world turn another hundred years or so. It’s true I don’t read much Missler/Smith.
Pastor,Pastor,
Thanks for the “be patient” reminder … I need that from time to time.
skabulon…funny that word comes up. I just taught Philippians 3:8 yesterday.
That was very strong word translated “rubbish or dung” in most English versions. (NLT - garbage) Rubbish does not touch the strength of the orginal word.
Paul says his righeousness was like a pile of poop or you fill in the blank…that is why salvation is not about what you don’t do or what you “do-do”
I need more prayer, please. More stuff at work. More spiritual warfare. I’m so sick of this place…I know I don’t belong here, that I don’t fit in.
Please pardon my ramblings, as I don’t normally do this. But it’s pretty intense.
BrianD,
We will be in prayer for you. I hate it when I hate my job. May the Lord give strength, wisdom and tolerance for the strife. We pray also for swift resolve.
“servant1:
You need to re-read the essential passages of church leadership.”
I love it when people talk to me like I’m a first year theologian or something. For the record I was a supralap for a long time. please don’t speak to me like I don’t know why I believe what I say. Now as for “can you show me one verse” I could show you many but I’m not willing to sit here and debate non essential theology. Like it or not I could show you all three views for church government in scripture I did go to seminary you know. what am I an infant in Christ? “yeah an infant” that knows greek and hebrew and studies in an integrative format of theology. Pretty well established infant I guess. I should never have come here to post some other pastors told me not to come post here now I know why.
Now that your pedigree has been firmly established, are you going to take your ball and go home? Evidently…………..
P2X
You said, “The problem is the neo-corporate, psuedo-CEO, Donald Trump (not Moses) model of “Company” traditions that we have blanketed with scripture and called it church. It will take strong young leaders to challenge it and older wiser men to ratify it.”
I agree.
My concern is that in both the challenging and undoing of the Trump model, that His Body doesn’t morph into some Frankensteinish critter that has no resemblance to what we see in Scripture.
Whatever the Body turns into, or perhaps more correctly, gets back to, the N.T. members/offices/gifts/purposes etc., need to be present in totality.
Otherwise, it’s a cripple, or a freak.
servant1,
I can imagine the ones that told you not to post here.
You’re far too educated, erudite and skilled in communication for us.
You’re also a horses ass, so take a hike.
servant1,
With all due respect it seems you’re not willing to debate, but you’re willing to heap condemnation on other folks who are trying to back ideas up with Scripture. Which is worse?
You leveled a challenge & people responded. I’m not sure what you find so offensive in that.
PX2, if I could walk away I’d do so in a heartbeat and never look back. I don’t believe I can walk away right now, so I stay.
Please pray that God will give me favor with all who work here with me and give them favor with me.
servant1,
I am somewhere between you and the other PP folks re. the pastoral position, and the chain of authority/accountability between elders and their pastor. In fact, I probably lean more in your direction.
That being said, I have learned that interaction on PP depends on people being gracious with others, and that we all have an intense love for the Body of Christ, even when we bite each other.
We need to remember that we are corporately, His Bride. I, for one, hope you don’t disappear, but I would understand if you did. I have disappeared a few times, but here I am again.
There is much to learn here if one sticks around. PP and smp have become good portals for me to be exposed to much that makes me wrestle with my faith.
I am thankful for enduring unpleasant seasons of interaction with PP, and to now be in the place I am.
Michael,
Actually, meeting would be cool.
Thanks for the kind words. Let’s not ever spoil things by actually meeting each other.
Blessings…
servant1
Now that you have flaunted your educational credentials you should be able to answer this question. If you are not willing to debate non-essential theology, why did you bring it up?
Pastor,Pastor,
You took the words right from my fingers in your 4:40 post.
I am always so disappointed when men appointed by God to be teachers get the shorts in a wad and stomp out of this blog in a snit - that just puts another notch in our adversary’s gun
BTW- “Unpleasant seasons of interactions with PP” is not intended to level blame on anyone. When I entered the fay, it was a h
“hot” season,. and folks’ nerves were quite raw, rightfully so.
Glad we are passed that.
HMMM wierd.
As some of you know I had a church plant, and it is now on hold. It is there for two reasons, while I do still believe this is the call on my life as any of you who have been around long know I didnt know what i believed, and i fell into sin. Bill Ritchie told me when I met with him that God was blessing me by not growing the church until I knew what I believed and why, and another friend from the Blog confirmed that the other day. The Lord is doing some great things in my family, I am learning great theology. I dont believe, as a matter of fact I know that I stepped out too soon because of pride, God is now humbling me and it actually feels good since I stopped fighting Him and started leaning into Him.
Not sure what all this means LOL, just felt the need to type it, thank God for good counsel. I feel honored to be studying under some of the greatest men of God here. Michael, Steve, Dreadly, MLD, Vic, Cent, AB, Dou and countless others have helped me to realize theology isnt as cut and dried as I thought and that there is a reason why others believe what they do. Dont know what God has for me to be honest, I believe PN had a prophetic word for me the other day and am holding to that. Currently getting involved in a local church and seeing what God has.
Certain none of this made any sense but what the heck neither do most of my posts.
servant1 has been around for awhile and has usually ended up being hostile.
Very odd considering how many friends of mine attend his church…
BrianD,
I’m so sorry you are struggling so much at work … that really stinks. Please know that bunches of us are still praying …
Hey All…
First of all, Michael…I’ve only heard good things about The Shack. I’m surprised that so many are giving you a tough time about it. I now must read it myself!!!
As far as your ministry here, I totally know how it is when the “supporters” of an abusive pastor come around and start saying…”if you only knew both sides of the story”. Oh brother. It doesn’t matter what the sides of the story are, if the pastor is in sexual sin, even a hint of it, HE NEEDS TO RESIGN OR BE REMOVED. I don’t care if the woman got him drunk and seduced him (did she hold a gun to his head and force him to drink?)…HE NEEDS TO BE DONE.
Now, I don’t know the Brian Michaels story, I think you shared all of that before my time, but let me say this…don’t let the “supporters” get you frustrated. Seriously, most likely they are pulled into a web of emotional trauma that they can’t even recognize, much as I was at one time. When you’re in that state it’s almost impossible to recognize anything but your devotion for the pastor and his family. My .02.
Bob Sweat, again…I just love your thoughts and your heart. Your words literally make me tear up almost every time you share. If only all men with stories like yours could be so amazing.
And Brian D…sorry work sucks right now. I’m praying for you brother. Shannon
Eric,
What matters is you.
You’re a big part of the family and I know God is just starting with you.
Same with BrianD…the best is just ahead.
Servent1,
May I ask … Why did you come here? Did you come to prove something … make fun of us … put us in our place … curiosity … what???
Hi, Shannon!
All is well…I don’t think they want to go a round with me right now.
Make that Servant1 … sorry.
Eric observed, ‘thank God for good counsel’ amen to that and thank God when we have the presence of mind to take it, too. Now I’m off to listen to the country’s leader. Sadly, he didn’t always have good cousel.
Eric,
I’m so glad you took the time to share that - what a wonderful work the Lord is doing in your life! I look forward to hearing what God continues to show you.
Blessings!
Eric-
That all makes perfect sense and it was well-said.
Bill,
The good part is that none of us remember the painful past, we’re just glad you’re here.
I’ll stop by when I take my long awaited road trip to SoCal…whenever that happens.:-)
Eric,
Thanks for sharing … and yes … like others have said … you made perfect sense. I look forward to hearing too …
Please forgive me I don’t mean to come across hostile. I don’t like to be spoken down to. If I have offended you I apologize. Again I am sorry if I offended any of you I hope you will forgive me I just have an incredible load on my plate right now not that that is an excuse but it is true I am stretched very thin That being said I shouldn’t be here.
Dios Ti Bendiga
I came here originally to read the weekend messages I should have left it at that again I’m sorry
Servant1,
Thank you for answering my question … and for apologizing. I understand about the stretched too thin thing. Hopefully you will find the time to get to know us all better … there is much we can all learn from each other … if willing.
servant1,
We don’t let anyone talk down to any one here and that wasn’t any ones intent.
Now that we have the obligatory opening brawl out of the way, how can we help?
Dewd a brawl? Im in Pony Boy, not sure what we are rumblin bout but i gots yer back.
Eric,
may God bless your confession, openness and humble heart. I have seen you trying and reaching out to those who may be more mature in their faith, asking them for guidance. And I have seen your hunger for learning sound doctrine and asking for accountability in your personal walk with Jesus. Keep up the good work. I know that our Lord will bless your efforts.
Continuing to pray for you and your wife.
BrianD, praying for you my friend.
Michael,
We might take a road trip to see Sola this summer. We’ll see. Know any good churches e can attend up there?
servant1,
IMHO, You’ll be a better man if you stick around, unless a Burning Bush is telling you “no”.
Bill,
I’ll start looking now.
I have 8 classes right now and my family and my moms husband is on his death bed and I need to find a full time job as I have exhausted all of my savings being obedient to the Lord going back to school there is more but thats the just of it.
I know it’s not allot I had more at the beginning of the year it’s just weighing heavy on my heart. I’m afraid I’ll have to put my degree on hold again to support my family. That is killing me as I know God has told me to be in school. I know God will provide but I’m getting further and further in the hole. I just need Gods intervention
servant1, I will keep you and your family in prayer.
Servant1,
You will be in my prayers … many other as well I’m sure. I will especially be praying for your mom’s husband … your mom too. I’m sure that is a big part of your heavy heart at this time … add financial struggles … yikes. Oh … and 8 classes … I’m stressed thinking about it. I’ll pray ….
Eric
Great outsiders reference…..
Stay golden.
Your transparency here has moved me.
I will praying for you.
Still waiting on the President….
I do have a question/ponder. So many men who love God post here and I am blessed and pointed in the right direction - the Word of God …then something ticks them off and they announce something to the affect ‘I never should have come here in the first place.’ Why not? It’s true that in depth defense of positions that have been challenged can’t be carried out here, but let your words stand or retract them gracefully if you mis-spoke. How do you spell Marquis of Queensbury? ? ?
Servant, DEWD, praying for Lord provision, Guidance and Wisdom in this. Thats alot for anyone to have on thier plate. We just lost my Father In Law last year and it was painfull.
If you need to talk or whatever my email is opendoororting@gmail.com it is best if you email me because i forget to email people otherwise as Patrick, Please Note and others can attest.
I am instructed by Dusty in the right direction
I thank God for you all and pray that God will keep anyone who comes here close and blessed
Psalm, dont know about the others but when my comfort zone gets entered I get defensive and say things i dont mean, I usually come around, or else someone emails me a kick in the pants that straightens me out LOL
Thanks all I cherish your prayers more than you will ever know.
Eric, just caught up on your sit. Sorry you closed your church doors for now, but I’m so proud of you for moving forward in the way God is calling you to. Wow, that’s so hard. My hubby and I have just been through a crazy ordeal with our pastoral calling…I can’t go into details public (the lurkers may figure me out), but I will say, our faith has been shaken as we made a huge step to follow what we believe is God’s call. Our whole life has been uprooted because of it (jobs, home, location, etc). Toughest decision ever, but I’m hopeful that God will continue to lead. Praying for the same for you dude. Lots of sisterly love at ya. Shannon
Thanks S-Dawgy, still praying for you guys. And be careful with the sisterly love, I remember the bru haha or however you spell it when someone mistook GL for Girl love lol.
Off to Bible study, Lords blessings all, BBIAB
servant 1…
Wow on the 8 classes, that’s INSANE. I’m a student and I know how crazy it can be just to be in a couple of classes. Hang in there.
“They are the ones who are relevant, they are the ones whose labor for the Lord is worth notice and emulation.”
Amen! And I would say that list includes you too, Pastor Michael!
CK,
Thanks!
How are you feeling?
“I did go to seminary you know. what am I an infant in Christ? “yeah an infant” that knows greek and hebrew and studies in an integrative format of theology. Pretty well established infant I guess. I should never have come here to post some other pastors told me not to come post here now I know why.”
Need a little cheese to go with that whine?
yeah some provolone would go nice
thanks I like cheese with my wine
Pretty well, Michael. All my tests are coming back normal. Dr. now thinks the pain I’ve been experiencing on my side might be a muscle spasm, but definitely not gall bladder, liver, kidneys, or otherwise. Just gotta work on my cholesterol and blood pressure now. So I guess I won’t be going to see the Lord any time soon. Dang it!
How’ve you been feeling? Still praying for you, bro.
“…if I could walk away I’d do so in a heartbeat and never look back. I don’t believe I can walk away right now, so I stay.”
BrianD,
Me too. Let’s pray for each other.
Michael, I wanted to apologize to you. I know you have allot on your platey, I want you to know You and your family are in my prayers. I hope you will forgive me.
I love when it goes this way….
Servant1, You are in my prayers.
God bless you
servant1,
Absolutely, please do the same for me.
CK,
I’m ok…takes longer when we get older.
Servant1,
That is how we all get here in a way. We reach a certain limit in our stress and isolation and are forced to reach out to total strangers for fellowship. If you think about it, it is very biblical.
According to 1John 5 it is how we determine spititual family. You know the others He “begot.” Welcome.
Servant1,
Glad you decided to stick around a bit. I really don’t believe you will regret your decision. I know for me … I don’t always have time but when I do have the time to stop in I am always blessed … or at least challenged.
Michael,
Sometimes I forget how enriched this place can be. Goodnight all.
BrianD take care. It is always OK to hit the ceiling, just don’t make any important decisions until you come down.
Everyone, an update:
My head has no cracks, the walls have no holes (my wallet is thankful for that), and things are better right now. To what degree it was because of the prayers of the saints, who knows, but I thank all of you for those prayers.
Kevin, let’s pray for one another.
Father, help Kevin in his particular situation. Give him favor with all where he works at, and those he works for, and those who are his students. Give them favor with him, and meet all of his needs, financial and emotional. Help him to realize how You see him when life and people and circumstances and the devil try to derail him. Meet all of his needs according to your riches by Christ Jesus. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.
PX2, thank you for your concern; it means a lot to me.
Going WAY back to Drew’s comment-the word “pastor” is used twice in the NT-once as a noun, once as a verb. It means shepherd. Call yourself Shepherd Joe and try to build a church around that.
The church is to be lead (not lorded over) by elders. The pyramid structure we see today is an unbiblical joke. READ YOUR BIBLES.
The “church” on the corner is a 503c corporation. The “pastor” doesnt pay social security or self employment taxes. When he puts in a pool, it’s a write off, due to “parsonage” laws. your “pastor” is the least taxed person you know.
I know alot of professional pastors. None are hurting financially.
- - - - - - -
Now that the dog has mellowed a bit, I await his return.
Could turning a blind eye to corruption in “ministry” be sin? Luther thought so.
As did Paul.
Px2,
It’s even better when you’re among us…get some rest.
When God next moves, you’re going to be square in the middle of it…
Eric,
nice Hinton/Outsiders angle at 5:32…someone noticed.
Johnny Filbertz
Bible study was awesome, not what I expected but a blessing nontheless. A foursquare study in a Presbyterian church LOL, thought I was going to choke on my coffee when the Teacher said that Revelation put a nail in the coffin of the Calvinist error of Once saved always saved LOL.
Only 4 guys showed up but we had a great time, I look forward to Wednesday nights study
This appears to be the “venting thread” so I’m going to vent…
Do you guys know how sick I was all weekend because I’d “fired” someone for the first time? Well, I was…
So, get to work today and SURPRISE! there he was!
No only that…but I had to spend 4 hours (no joke)in meetings with him, his boss, and one of the director folks on my “side” of the fence…4 HOURS of time where nothing else got done.
Only to come to the conclusion that a) he’s not “fired” from my project even though on Friday I was told in no uncertain terms he would be b) I now have to train him in how to be a manager because that is what his evaluation is based on!
He doesn’t even work for the same company!!! How the heck did that happen???!!
Needless to say, I nearly blew a gasket today….
It’s still ugly between us, I can’t get rid of him, and I can’t stand him. I litterally feel a weird “energy” drain around him. Physically feel it….
uggggggh…
Ok, feel a bit better now. Thanks,
Lonny,
you could write a new Christian fiction book called “The Shaft” and we could argue about it here!
Hold der fort!
filet’o'fish
LOL!!!!
Altough, I’ve had quite enough arguing on the topic already
In the 4 weeks I’ve been on this project, I’m not joking when I say 1 week’s worth of time has been spent on this one guy.
What’s supper with you??
Plus, I think I basically threw a professional temper tantrum today…that went over well as you can no doubt imagine! hahahahahahahaaaaa
I’m way late on this thread but found the comments on our dear Republican canditate [Mike Huckabee] really enlightening. Back in the seventies we were voting for Jimmy Carter because he was a Christian and that was it. To think that some are doing the same thing thirty some years later by endorsing Huckabee with their votes in the primary.
Good reality check on the politics out there with Huckabee being exposed as a Coplandite. Seems money is the great hypnotizer still and can still shrink men small enough to put into a pants pocket.
L-don
maim them with kindness.
busier than a one-armed wood-cutter, but ok. Leased a building for our catering business finally and take possession Feb. first. Soccer, school, kids, etc. the adventure continues.
L
some people are like a bad tatoo…get under your skin, permanently.
Thats awesome Fil, Congratz!
Yeah, Eric, we’ll have to host a PNWPPBBQ this summer.
Tri-tip, pork tenderloin, some bratz…
…complementary copies of The Shack…kahlua smoothies…
London
Sorry about your turn of events
My stomach hurt reading your recap of the day
Hey! Congratulations Filly!!!!
When you have the party let me know… I’m sort near there but not really!
I thought I was being loving when I “fired” him and didn’t just kill him.
some bratz - does that mean the kids are invited? LOL…I crack myself up!
diakonos,
I’m glad your stomach didn’t hurt over my menu.
I’ll stay on this thread tonight and watch the fireworks over Jerusalem from this vantage point.
Thanks Diakonos…it was not a pretty day.
Gotta love those office politics huh?
Flipper,
Can we have corn on the cob too??
(notice how not only did I invite myself, but now I’m dictating the menu too)
Puzz,
good summary. I pushed him out of my circle of viable candidates early, and he’s done nothing to re-enter the ring, IMO.
L-done,
Of course you’d be included. With all your flyer-miles, it’d be a waltz.
bratz, yep, could be my kidz, could be the guest list.
Something to read on the commode…
http://fromtheashesblog.com/?p=766
Dang, dropped my lap-top in the john. Thanks BrianD.
All right…so there’ll be dancing too!
Awesome
Well…heck…I guess I’ll get off now. Think I’ve seen enough fighting and bizzare behavior for one day.
Later Filup anc Co.
Nite L
D
May your dreams have nothing to do with your day
btw - my aunt, the one who had the heart attack a few months ago had to go to the ER last night cause her face was drooping and she couldn’t talk etc…She was dxed with Myasthenia Gravis.
sux…prayers welcomed.
L, on it.
Prayers granted
sux big
I truly never will understand it, I must live on another planet etc. I went back and read that letter concerning the pastor etc. It said several people counseled him, he was asked people cam along side etc. In real life Christian fellowship one time was two to many and there was no counsel there was do it or get out. Usually it was To late get out anyway. I dug deep and with all honesty in the real world I cant relate not at all.
I know alot of professional pastors. None are hurting financially.
- - - - - - -
I am a Pastor last time I checked was licensed guess that makes me proffessional, and I’ve been out of work with two herniated disks for
6 months. I don’t take hardly any money from the church I depend on God to pay my bills your statement is a generalizing nonsense. please don’t make statements like that. Just because you don’t know one who’s hurting doesn’t mean there are none who are. what about all those young men who plant churches and still work full time to pay the bills et.
I love you but your statement is wrong.
Lord, please be with BrianD as he works today. Give him your peace which passes understanding, emotional and physical strength to be all that you desire him to be today, and favor with those whom he works with and for. In Jesus’ Name. Amen.
Good morning, Servant1. Please forgive my cheesy comment last night. Poor timing on my part. Have a blessed day.
pappadeas said, “I know alot of professional pastors. None are hurting financially.”
I know a lot of pastors who are.
Good morning Dusty, Capt, & Servant1 … oh and Good morning any and all lurkers!
Servant1 & Dusty,
Not to speak for pappadeas but I think it was more the pastor that resembles the CEO of a large business … lives that kind of life with all the trimmings … that he was addressing.
Hi Nancy. Oh, is that what he meant by ‘professional’ pastor? I get it…now.
How are you?
I’m well … and you?
I think that’s what he meant … but I understand how it could sting those who work so hard and struggle much. I suspect there are many more pastors that fall into that category than the CEO type … but sadly the CEO type are much more visible.
Nancy, I’m ok.
You have shared lots of good thoughts.
By professional, I mean salaried.
Servant1-those young church planters are following the biblical model.
A “Sr. Pastor” of a church that runs 180 and over is doing well.
Acts 28-
28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, [3] which he obtained with his own blood. [4] 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Am I the only person who sees Paul encouraging the Ephesian elders
that they should follow his example and be self supporting?
This was a “pastors conference”. Can anyone imagine a modern day PC where Chuck, CJ…you fill in the blank, would make such a statement?
He told THE ELDERS (pastors) that it is more blessed to give than to receive. I’ve never heard that text used in that context in 25 years.
Any pastor here ever hear similar statements at a pastors conference?
err..that was acts 20…
so salaried means your a professional? I’m not following the logic here.
What part don’t you understand?
Is there Biblical evidence that NT elders were paid?
Although Paul was a tentmaker & did not receive support in some cases, Paul was paid at some point in his ministry:
2 Cor 11:7-9
7. Did I commit sin in abasing myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge?
8. I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you.
9. And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what was lacking to me the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.
Nancy - where on the East Coast are you?? We are in North Carolina - just wondering “what you know” pertaining to churches…
London - I am praying for you sister, so sorry the corporate style has gotten in the way of actually getting work done. I used to work for a major hotel corp. and it seemed that all the worst workers rose to the top or were kept in place by upper management. Why?? Dont know. Oh well, its there show. But I am praying for you still - drop me a line sometime!
Hi Mrs. TDoS,
I live in pretty much the southern most part of New Jersey … just up river from Cape May.
Doulos-
Was Paul a pastor? I don’t think that any of the “support those who preach the Gospel” passages refer to local elders.
Do you?
While on the subject did I point out that a large majority of the candidates running for office are 33 degree freemasons and Hillary is a 33 degree star.
Freemasonry and Christianity are mutually exclusive truth claims. You cannot be a true Biblically minded Christian and be a free mason.
Pappadeas -
You don’t believe 1 Cor 9:14 & 1 Tim 5:17-18 apply to local elders? I’m certainly aware of arguments stating that Paul is not referring to finances, but surely you’re aware that is an extreme minority viewpoint. Most commentaries I’ve read applies this to finances.
And you’re correct - Paul was an apostle; not a pastor. Perhaps I misunderstood you before…I thought you had used Paul as an example of why pastors/elders should not be supported by the church. Obviously Paul wasn’t always supported, but there were definitely times he was.
servant1:
You are not being talked down to you are being challenged. But, before I write anything I want you to know how sorry I am about your physical condition and financial problems. Since we have no physical connection all I can do is pray and ask for God to heal and restore you.
Now this place is a place where people come to debate, argue, offend and heal outside of the pretenses of our normal physical worlds. Titles, experience and education mean very little here just the ability to communicate via a keyboard. The place tends to be reformed in doctrine, but many other Christian doctrines are held by those who type here.
Now for the debate on Christian leadership. While I probably don’t have the education you have I do have multiple degrees and previous credentialing with a major denomination. I too have studied the three major forms of church government. I believe none of them actually model NT leadership well. The best NT description I have seen is in a book, “Biblical Eldership” by Alexander Strauch, ISBN 0-936083-11-5.
Now this web site has a lot of Calvary Chapel stuff associated with it and many of the affiliated churches use the “Moses” model which is neither OT or NT.
Now I have gone out on a limb and will probably take some heat on this, but that is the nature of this blog. Fire away!
servant1:
PS. I used to have a friend who was a Free Mason and would get very mad when we would point out the incompatibility. His argument was Masons acted more like Christians than Christians did. He was right.
My Grandfather was a Mason just for that reason. He could go anywhere in the world and find some one who would help him when he needed it. Could we say the same about Christianity?
I do agree with your statement.
Doulos,
1 Cor 9, Paul is talking about himself.
1 Tim 5 says what it says:
Elder-double honor
Ox-grain
Laborer-wages
Why didn’t Paul just speak clearly and say that elders should be paid? Because it contradicts his instruction to the Ephesian elders-be like me-pay your own way.
Doulos,
My reference to Paul was in context to his advice to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20.
pappadeas:
Does the “double honor” thing really mean financially or could Paul be referring to something else?
Also when Paul speaks of his rewards does he speak in th present, future or both? What kind of rewards does he refer to in each case?
By the way I do agree he states at one point he had the “right” to have his present physical needs met through the church, but chose not to.
My personal opinion is if a church shorts those who work in it while the congregation prospers, something is wrong.
But if the Pastor drives a Lexus while the rest have 10 year old Chevys there is also a problem.
Glad I’m not deciding these things at present.
Just some thoughts, got to go.
Doulos,
Having said all of the above-1 Tim 5 is the best you have for a paid pastorate. Unfortunately, it’s all that you have.
We’ve built the professional pastor system we have today from one verse with multiple interpretations?
It’s not enough for me. I’m well aware of the fact that what you refer to as the minority opinion will not change anyone’s mind who earns his living running an institutional church.
Wanna talk about tithing?
what is the “Moses” model anyway? Is it leaders over 1,000, leaders over 100’s and leaders over 10’s??
Pappadeas,
You wrote: “1 Cor 9, Paul is talking about himself.” Not for the entire chapter. He addresses himself specifically in the beginning & then moves to the principle or theory in his teaching. Vs. 14 specifically says:
“14. Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.” You might note that the word for “those who preach” is in the 3rd person plural.
You also wrote: “1 Tim 5 says what it says: Elder-double honor. Ox-grain. Laborer-wages.”
Again, your view is in the extreme minority. Adam Clarke writes in his commentary regarding double-honor, “Almost every critic of note allows that ‘timay’ here signifies reward, stipend, wages. Let him have a double or a larger salary who rules well; and why? Because in the discharge of his office he must be at expense, in proportion to his diligence, in visiting and relieving the sick, in lodging and providing for strangers; in a word, in his being given to hospitality, which was required of every bishop or presbyter.”
Besides, what would “wages” in vs. 18 refer to if NOT financial renumeration for the laborer.
Surely I’m not telling you anything you haven’t heard before. I’m curious why you’re pushing this so hard?
Pappadeas,
“Wanna talk about tithing?”
No. But I’d think you’d be surprised at my position on it.
Servant1
You aren’t going to organize a PP field trip to Bohemian Grove to do an expose are you?
one of the tithes in the Old Testament was intended to support the priests and levites.
Here I can agree with the Calvary guys. I actually like that we support (pay) our pastors.
I don’t want to come to church and find out that they got called in to work the Sunday shift at Safeway.
Even if a paid pastorate is cultural, who cares? so is having toilets at church and I don’t see anyone advocating closing them up.
“We’ve built the professional pastor system we have today from one verse with multiple interpretations?”
Actually, I listed two…you just didn’t like the other one I brought up.
MLD -
Great example. Likewise with chairs, carpet, air conditioning & more.
mld,
nice…………..lol
Doulos,
The context of 1 Cor 9 is clear.
I’ve preached the Gospel for 25 years-where’s my check?
To try to flip Paul’s words to include elders in this passage is a major stretch. If he wasn’t talking about himself and Barnabas, which he clearly was, the most I can give you is that he was refering to others with the same ministry. Wait… I take that one back. he’s talking about himsself and Barnabas.
As for 1 Tim 5, Clark is mistaken. Time, or “timay” in vs 17 means honor. Misthos in vs 18 means wage. Dump the commentary and read the Greek if the english isn’t good enough for you.
If Paul meant wages, he would have used misthos twice.
Weak.
MLD-who cares? I’d think the Sola crowd (of which I’m one) would.
pappadeas
“MLD-who cares? I’d think the Sola crowd (of which I’m one) would.”
Which Sola is offended by paying the pastor?
MLD-I’ll take the bait, and I think I know what your response will be.
scriptura?
Polls just closed here in Florida-gotta go watch and see who won the McCain/Romney horserace.
If I’m addressed, I’ll respond tomorrow, although it might be best to move on to a discussion about Air Conditioning-you know, since it’s just like church leadership.
I have no reason to believe that I’ll change anyone’s mind, and I’ve engaged in thi conversation so many times, I don’t think I’ll hear anything that I havent heard in the past.
But I could very well be wrong, feel free to continue if you like.
Please forgive the edge in my posts. I do wish you grace and peace.
Jim
pappadeas,
I hope that you thought that my response would be - ???????
Sola scriptura is the assertion that the Bible as God’s written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter (”Scripture interprets Scripture”), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.
And paying your pastor violates this?
Pappadeas -
Obviously I touched a nerve with you for some reason, and for that I apologize. I don’t however plan to stop relying on the community of faith to aid in the exegesis of the Scripture.
peace.
Doulos,
No apology necessary at all-you said nothing inappropriate. I appreciate your humble spirit, and if forgiveness was in order, it would be granted.
My attitude doesnt come from anything you’ve said. This is a big issue for me-I flat out think that the way we do church in America hinders joe christian. Joe is a spectator who listens to the paid professional. He may invite his unsaved friend to church to hear the paid professional preach the Gospel. Joe is not being equipped for the work of the ministry, and does not understand the priesthood of all believers. He gives because it’s more blessed to give than to recieve, and because he’s taught to tithe. His money pays salaries and builds buildings.
Enough on this topic-we are both members of His Body, and while I disagree with how the institutional church operates, I do not want to stand against it. I affirm our unity in Him.
MLD-you gave the textbook lutheran response. It’s a good one, which I agree with.
My question to you would be, is there room in lutheran thought for Scripture alone will be our sole guide for faith and practice? Doctrine means teaching-does the teaching of Scripture address practice?
In other words, we agree on orthodoxy. Does orthopraxy matter?
pappadeas,
You must be using words that I don’t understand. Are you saying that there is something in scripture that defines faith & practice that forbids paying a pastor?
Help me out here.
BTW - I do think that the purpose of scriptures/doctrines are to inform practice. How did I do?
MLD-you did well, as usual.
I don’t see Scripture forbidding paying a local elder. I see Paul encouraging elders to follow his example and be self supporting. And I see no examples of a paid elder in Scripture.
So, I’m saying it’s an unbiblical practice that is not directly forbidden.
We meet on the Lord’s day because that’s what the NT church did. Changing the day to Tuesday is not forbidden, but I’d bet you’d vote against it.
So, my question is, are the practices of the NT church descriptive, or prescriptive? It’s not a trick question, so if you chosse to state your opinion, no need to ask me how you did.
I havent fully worked this out in my own head, but I’m obviously leaning.
pappadeas,
Do you really think that it is an unbiblical issue or a non biblical issue?
In Lutheranism (an I am sure others) we would consider it adiaphora. An issue that the Bible neither commands nor forbids. Although not open to just filling the gaps, in most cases it is left open to the “freedom of the Christian 1 Cor 9)
So what do you think, did Paul earn his whole keep for himself and his posse? Or do you think people gave him room and board and some pocket change? Perhaps a free chicken or goat once in a while?
MLD-
UN.
Paul wasn’t a local elder.
This dog needs to go to bed.
Grace & Peace,
Jim
MLD,
Of course you’re under no obligation, but are you going to answer my questions?
‘Joe is a spectator who listens to the paid professional. He may invite his unsaved friend to church to hear the paid professional preach the Gospel. Joe is not being equipped for the work of the ministry, and does not understand the priesthood of all believers.’
Pappadeas,
How would you define the work of the ministry? What is it that the average churchgoer is missing in today’s church? As a Lutheran, my answer is that every vocation/sphere of life he or she is involved in — parent, son/daughter, church activity, employer/ee, community activity, you name it — is “work of the ministry.” It’s under the umbrella of vocation. Church activity doesn’t get any extra brownie points — in fact, if you read Gene Edward Veith’s book “God At Work,” he says too many Christians spend too much time in church activities! Then we wonder why we don’t relate to those around us.
Also, your comment about “orthodoxy versus orthopraxy” — at least for this Lutheran, that’s nonsensical. They’re intertwined. What I believe determines how I live.
ok MLD-it’s late-you did answer….