Where have I seen this before?
Controversy erupts in an ecclesiastical organization, blogs are set up to expose misinformation, secret files are appearing online that confirm or at least raise greater suspicion of said organization, and then the national media get involved.
Oh, and lets not forget the loss of a popular young pastor and a "bring back' website.
Been there, done that.
What took a couple of years to transpire on the Phoenix Preacher in regard to Calvary Chapel has taken two weeks in the case of Issues Etc. and the LCMS.
This situation is different, of course and so is the response.
So far nobody has condemned any of the bloggers to perdition for speaking out and there are large numbers of clergy protesting along side their parishioners.
We had a lot of the former and not much of the latter.
While the issues and players are different it feels like the bad old days because the core issue is the same.
A breach of trust.
Whether in a marriage, a workplace, or the church, the quickest way to ruin a relationship is to break the bonds of trust.
Repairing those breaches takes far longer than breaking them.
I'll offer up the same advise to the leadership of the LCMS that I have previously offered to leaders in CC.
I expect it will be received today every bit as eagerly as it was then.
Stop trying to cover your tracks, say "we blew it" and "we're sorry" and count on the fact that you've taught your people about grace.
The alternative will be to keep getting caught in your own misinformation and a deepening rift with those you've been called to serve.
That's the other thing…the call to lead God's people always is filled with the call to serve God's people, not the other way around.
If you forgot that, today is the day to remember it again…
Update: The Lutheran version of "Nickel Sunday".
That might get someone's attention …
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
What if something is rotten behind the scenes and you find that the Lutherans have attempted to keep it quiet to protect innocent people. I do not really understand what it at issue here. It did not seem like a big deal to me when it came out…so my whole question could be idiotic. But I am watching this thing….from a far distance and wondering, what if there is no boogeyman in the closet.
How about summarizing what the deal is here since this is the 5th posting on it… Ok I have not read much and you probably said it ten times…
Is this some bad guys putting it to some good guys for partisan denominational reasons. Or what?
Longing for the good ole days when CC was always the guys in black hats..
Recanting Dread
I don’t think we can say that it is bad guys against good guys.
What is seems to be is a leadership with an agenda that runs counter to that of thousands of pastors and parishioners and the methodology they’re using to further that agenda is authoritarian and less than transparent.
I long for days when we all wear the same color hats…
Dread -
Remember that hoary old late ’70s tune . . . Dave Mason, I think
“Been away, haven’t seen you in a while / how you been
Have you changed your style and do you think we’ve grown up differently / you don’t seem the same / Seems you’ve lost your feel for me
So let’s leave it alone / ’cause we can’t see eye to eye
There ain’t no good guys / there ain’t no bad guys
There’s only you and me and we just disagree.
Whooaaaaaaa
I don’t know if I had a point, or if reading your post with the phrase ‘black hats’ reminded me of bad guys, which made me (unfortunately) remember this song, so I didn’t want to be the only one suffering with that miserable tune bouncing through my noggin’, so I thought I’d . . . ahem . . . “share”/plague others with it. Misery loves company. Bad Company, with Mak Farner.
It’s the “no fault, but I’m sure as heck bitter” broke up song.
I hope we can avoid the demonization of all things Lutheran. Let’s see what our learning curve is on grace . . .
Holding onto my hat and hope,
The Robsequious Collector of Cruddy Songs
Rob,
The fact that so many Lutheran clergy are actually leading this battle pre-empts the kind of hostility that we saw in our issues.
I will always wonder what our outcomes would have been if things had been similar here…
The download logs are significantly different from what they’ve stated. They owe an explanation now. We’ll see if they choose instead to go after the ones who leaked the documents. I love the Internet…
I tried to find arbitron ratings for KFUO Am and Issues, Etc. last night, but couldn’t find anything but the FM ratings. Anyone know where you’d go to get that?
This was an interesting quote from the First Things blog, written by Anthony Sacramone, quoted by the Bring Back Issues, Etc. blog…
“But if the LCMS want to be the “home” that worn-out wandering evangelicals come back to—as opposed to the Roman and Orthodox churches—it needs a president who respects the tradition’s confessional roots and will allow Lutherans to be Lutherans: not fundamentalists, not evangelicals (although Lutherans, historically, were the original evangelicals), not charismatics, and not mainline Protestant liberals.”
It would seem that there are at least some of us wandering evangelicals!
…wandering and worn out
Linnea,
Ratings numbers are hard to find for AM stations.
I’m not sure that those numbers mean much in this case because of the focus on the internet as the main conduit for distribution.
Rob,
“I hope we can avoid the demonization of all things Lutheran.”
You can’t demonize the Lutherans - we are the ones who want to stay Lutheran. The ones to be ‘demonized’ are the guys who don’t want to remain Lutheran but would rather be CC or Saddleback (but their pensions are Lutheran)
Buster,
I’m wondering the same thing…
Dread,
Digest either or both of these two articles — they’ll give you the big picture about “Issues, Etc.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120667366412170875.html?mod=taste_primary_hs
http://www.firstthings.com/blog/2008/03/28/the-lcms-mess/
Linnea,
I hear you! I regularly run across people who’ve been through half a dozen churches and traditions. Talking ’bout boomers.
Dread:
Digest one or both of these articles — should answer your questions…if not, give a holler.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120667366412170875.html
http://www.firstthings.com/blog/2008/03/28/the-lcms-mess/
I seem to be getting moderated or something.
Uh, never mind.
I fished them out, Lutheran.
Thank you!
Michael,
“We had a lot of the former and not much of the latter.”
Those are very sad words.
It is encouraging though to see the response so far in this case. Could it be part of the reason it has only taken weeks to transpire and not years to get to this point?
Nancy,
No doubt.
If the CC pastors had spoke this way about CSN and Heitzig we would have had many different outcomes.
We’ll see how this plays out…
I take issue with that statement, but I’ll propose this as a counter -
Let’s see if the Lutherans who have submitted themselves to this structure and governance are able to resolve this issue biblically, and, amid the process, observe the positive resolutions and the difficulties and make some biblical connections to what is effective church government, what is biblical church government and if the twain shall meet.
In this way we can observe the upside and downsides of both denominational construct and loose affiliation/fellowship/non-denominational denominations.
I pray there aren’t wounded hearts and ruined lives, I am not a disinterested observer, but I also think this is an opportunity to observe biblical conflict resolution and really learn from it.
I believe that we’ll see the weak link in every church government construct is the people. My belief is an elected group, an affiliated group, an appointed individual all have equal capacity for messing up any area of controversy.
Instant problems? Just add people.
Thank you Lutheran…
Instant problems? Just add people.
That’s for sure.
Is that an argument for keeping decisions away from people?
The more people, the worse?
The fewer, the better?
Rob,
The denomination/synod is not a top down organization. They really have no power over the congregations. We have all signed on to the same creeds and confessions and the synod people are elected/hired to carry out functions of missions, publication etc.
But the synod leadership works for us, the congregations. The problem with the Issues etc. thing is that in a denomination of 2.6 million we have only heard from 5K to 10k.
Most people have never heard of KFUO and Issues etc so don’t even know or care about the problem.
So, even if nothing were to be done, we still have the opportunity to vote the rascals out in 2 years, if we have enough support. If we don’t have the support, then I guess we stay the course or look into other options.
I wonder when the CCOF leadership come up for re election?
MLD,
Exactly.
Lutheran and MLD are brothers!!! Proof is shown here! SMILE!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_OBlgSz8sSM
Erunner,
Dodgers time
In trying to understand the Lutheran psyche, I came across these little gems….perhaps they’ll shed some light on the current hub-bub:
YOU KNOW YOU ARE LUTHERAN WHEN……
…a midlife crisis means switching from the old hymnbook to the new one.
…you make change in the offering plate for a ten.
…you freeze the leftover coffee from fellowship hour for next week.
…you think you’re paying your pastor too much if he gets a new car for the first time in eight years.
…doughnuts are in the official church budget.
…your congregation’s first two operating rules are “Don’t change” and “Don’t spend.”
…your LCMS pastor refers to St. Louis as “the holy city.” (WELS=Milwaukee; ELCA=Chicago; ELS=Mankato; etc.)
…you’re at an evangelistic rally and you actually manage to raise your hands waist high.
…Commandment #11–If it’s never been done that way before, don’t do it.
…a line item in the trustee’s budget is “coffee maker maintenance.”
…change means wearing your brown suit instead of your blue suit to church.
…you read your Catechism and start arguing
…the most mail you receive all year is from the Stewardship Committee.
…you win $10 million in the lottery and decide to throw a party and money is no object, so you advertise in the church bulletin, rent the parish hall, and ask all of your friends to bring a side dish or salad.
…every time something changes, the old one was better.
…you’re willing to pay up to one dollar for a meal at church.
…the second service each Sunday is coffee hour.
…you count coffee among the sacraments.
Any comments from our Lutheran brethren
E-Runner –
Hilarious.
That’s MLD biting my finger, right?
Linnea,
Perfect?
Q: How many Lutherans does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Change?
Linnea,
I meant,
Perfect!
I love these “You know you’re ___ when…”
Here’s an Orthodox one:
• On Wednesdays and Fridays you eat Japanese food.
• You are more comfortable standing in church than sitting.
• You can suck/vacuum up the crumbs of bread out of your hand without coughing.
• Lent to you means peanut butter, tofu, soy, lots and lots of pita bread and hummus, and services at least five times a week.
• You’re used to skipping breakfast on Sundays.
• On your first encounter with long words, you pronounce them stressing the ‘next to the next to last’ syllable.
• You wonder why the Pope crosses himself backwards when you see him on TV.
• You wear comfortable shoes to church, because you know you’ll be standing a long, long time.
• To you, a ‘topless’ gal is one without a headscarf.
• You get great deals on Easter candy.
• You spend time figuring out the best way to remove smoke stains from your ceiling and wax from your walls.
• When you see a shopping-mall Santa, your first instinct is to hold out your hands to get his blessing.
• Before you pray, you say a prayer.
• You don’t flinch when someone throws water at you.
• When you first tell people who ask what religion you are, at first they think you’re Jewish. Oy!
• You’re experienced at removing wax from clothing.
• The service routinely starts at least 15 minutes late and lasts 2 ½ hours — and nobody around you complains.
• You consider any service two hours or under short/regular.
• You know you’re in an Orthodox church when the priest says, “Let us complete our prayer to the Lord”, and there’s still half an hour to go.
• At the end of Holy Week, you have rug burns on your forehead.
• Your Easter isn’t Easter without an all-night party (featuring 10 dishes of sausage with cheese).
• Your priest is married.
• You have seen all members of clergy in purple robes.
• You can differentiate between the eight different chanting tones.
• You typically celebrate a feast day by observing strict fasting.
• You celebrate feast days the night before.
Diane and Lutheran
I started looking for one about evangelicals…
My first thought was…
You might be an evangelical if… you’ve ever been involved in a network marketing scheme
You might be an evangelical if you wear your heart on your T-shirt, rather than on your shirt sleeves.
Special edition of the White Horse Inn about Issues Etc:
http://www.whitehorseinn.org/newsevents.htm
At the Water’s Edge
We can go no further, we have come to the edge. The Enemy is behind there is no going back, we have come to the edge There is no escape, we are at the water’s edge. Water is wonderful, but in the Bible it is often in the way of the progress of God’s people, at the Red Sea they were halted, At the Jordan they had to wait and search their hearts for three days, in each case the impossibility had to sink in deeply, there is no human was out, there is no human way to proceed. We can go no further, we have come to the edge. I believe that in our human effort we need to get to the edge, we need to get to the place where we see fully that we cannot do it. That it is beyond our power, there is no effort, there is simply no answer that is within us for the problem, we must wait for God to Work. We we have done our best, and we come to the end of all human effort, when it seems there are no answers to our problems, when it seems there is no where to turn, all we can do is wait.
At the Red Sea they were running from an enemy, at the Jordan they were invaders who’s enemy was across the Swollen Jordan, at the
A. The Jordan and the Red Sea
at the red sea the came out of bondage —at the Jordan
they came into their inheritance
1.at the one God used a strong east wind — at the other
no means are mentioned
3. The Red sea at night —-The Jordan at in daylight
the one a symbol of our judicial death to sin —the other
our union with the Resurrected Christ
4. no order to sanctify themselves at the Red Sea —ordered
to sanctify at the Jordan
So if we are wanting to get away from trouble, or we are wanting to advance in the Lord, we will be brought to the Water’s Edge where our need for complete reliance on the Lord will be driven home. We may have to wait for days or months before we advance, but brothers and sisters the Lord Will Part the water, so if you have come to the edge, to the end of all your energy, of all your strength, of all your prayers are spent, and you can pray no longer, of all your everything is used up, just wait. That’s all we can do once we come to the waters edge.
At the Water’s Edge
Deadmanwalking
DMW,
There was the word I needed today.
Blessings on you and yours.
With you on the waters edge…
DMW,
That reminds me of one of my favorite books, Meeting God at a Dead End by the late Ron Mehl. Good word, brother!
I used to have a Tee shirt that had a picture of Moses in a beach chair with the “Red Sea Beach Club” written under it.
DMW,
Are there particular promises that you hang on to?
What do you say to yourself as you wait at the waters edge?
Diane,
I’ve never seen a “You Know You’re Orthodox If…”
Thank you very much for sharing it!!
This is very helpful. I am hopeful that folks stand up for the Lutheran Tradition. Dr. / Father Luther really is a representation of so many of us, scared, messed up, put foot in mouth, and did great things, showed grate bravery, was totally messed up, cussed, etc. Dont thrash me on this, but I think Lutheranism / Anglicanism have a measure of sacraments and evangelical. There is a rich tradition that is being twisted imo. I understand in the modern corp. this is irrelevant but it is still wrong. Why do I say this, you dont fire folks during Holy Week.
One other thing if there was a “failing” and they were seeking to protect innocent folks, I would love to think this true, but my cynical self knows this, gravity would fail before that would happened. If there was such a failing it would have been paraded out toot sweet when any opposition was offered. It has been my experience when any pastor / christian / leader fails, tearing them limb from limb has to happen, it just has to. I wish I was wrong. But I know for a fact I am not.
I have often wondered what I would be thinking about if I was in that crowd that had to wait for three days. I would probably start out with trying to figure out how we were going to get across. I might think of boats, but then notice the lack of wood, I might think of a bridge, but then realize a flooded rivers currents would never allow us to build a bride, I would keep trying to solve the problem in my head until I exhausted myself.
I am exhausted. I have one Hope I cling too. At least at this moment I have no hopes, I am blinded to anything good this side of Heaven. and have only One Hope. I will someday get out of here, and Be With Him.
So I cling to The Promise … not promises
These last few months have kind of been like being in a train station waiting. the thing is I am not sure if I am waiting to go home, of for a ride back to work, which ever train shows, I will get on, and either be Homeward bound, or back to the Pulpit, for me Home sounds good, but if it is needful for me to stick around I am fine with that too.
OneHopeDeadman
waiting at the water’s edge..
In the mean time I just want to be a good waiter.. duel meaning intended
DMW….
How is your health? I know it has been a rough last few months for you.
linnea — I actually feel pretty good as long as I don’t do too much..
In God’s waiting Room.
I don’t even know what I am waiting for. I have often been in God’s waiting room. I usually don’t even know what to pray for, except that His will be done. I sit here waiting, I have read, until I can’t read anymore, so I just let my mind wander from time to time, I wonder if when He calls me in, will I be sent on a new errand, will I be put back into service, or will I be told It is time to come home, or will I be told I just have to wait some more. I don’t know what is ahead. I don’t know the Future, I But I know who is in control of the Future, and I trust Him. So I wait. Been in this waiting room Since New Years day. The Doctors said that I had to wait 3 months before they would even start testing to see how bad the damage to my heart was, in the next three weeks the testing will be done, and I will hear my name called while I am in a doctors waiting room, and I will get the news. So I wait with increasing anxiety. What will I hear, He might say, the damage was not that bad, back to the pulpit, or he might say, you will never return to work again, and you will never be able to be the 24/7 care giver for you wife again, or he may tell me somewhere in-between. As for my prayers, they are I want to return to service, or go home, I don’t want anything in between the two, if my service here is done, I was out of here.
at the water’s edge
dmw
DMW–
I didn’t realize that you had to wait for more testing–that has got to be nerve wracking! I’m with you–who wants to be in between a full life and going home? I will pray that you get the go ahead for “full steam ahead!”.
Well, I know that this is an old web sitek, so I hope that some one besides me is still reading it. I am a poor speller and rely too much on spell check so please forgive mis spellings. I started attending CCCM when it was a circus tent. What a blessing it was !!! I come from a pastoral family, my dad was a pastor, both grandfathers and many uncles, we were Assembly of God, when I started attending CC we were Nazarene and I was quickly out cast from the Nazarene church for attending CC. What a wonderful experience that was, a Pastor (Chuck SR) actually being more concerned with teaching the BIBLE than getting caught up in the turmoil and arguing of the “church”. When CC built the building it now has the biggest argument (or one of them) was people were coming in bare footed, and getting the new carpet dirty, how wonderful was Chuck’s reply, that if the carpet kept people out of attending church, the carpet would be ripped up!!! That ended that argument! I know that there are no perfect churchs, because there are no perfect people, but how sad I am to learn of this divison in CC. I have been gone from CC for a number of years, I returned to Chuck JR church in Capo in 91. What a wonderful shepard he is to his flock ! Although I dont have a personal relationship with him out side of the church I know that he has a wonderful heart that truly seeks to see Jesus and leads us to see him too! If it had not been for Chuck Jr, I think I would have given up on the “Christian” church long ago. Chuck is a wonderful loving, devoted and educated child of God and has done many wonderful things. It really hurts to read of everyone speculating on his and his father’s relationship, I pray that it is stronger than ever, I know from growing up in the church that even the closest of church elders and board members cannot really know what goes on in the pastor’s family behind closed doors. The speculation isjust gossip. IT do nothing to edify the body or Christ. The divisions in Calvary break my heart—WHERE is the church that started out in the 60s and 70s can anyone tell me. I am unchurched right now and have been since 95. (I moved out of the area for one reason–I moved to Hollywood–) moved back into Long Beach 18 months ago, that is when I learned about Chuck Jr. It seems here that people are very quick to condem anyone that takes a different look than theirs, but that was the way it was when CC started. As far as the Catholic Church goes, I believe that any church that teachs and follow the doctrines of the Holy Bible are of God, and ther are some Catholic churches that do, I have attended them. I don’t have a problem with people confessing their sins to a Pries, there were more than a few time that I was asked/instructed to confess my sins to a church preacher, elder etc and YES this did happen even at CC Costa Mesa!
When I was seeking the gift of speaking in tongues, a CC preacher told me just to repeat what he was saying, soon I would be able to do it on my own. Adultry, yes, I found about about the facts of life at a very tender age of 8 because myself and a friend of mine walked in on an Assembly of God pastor doing the deed with the church secretary Sunday afternoon after the sermon and eveyone left, in no less a chuch pew!!!I could go on and on–but I won’t, just want to remind you that God will be the final judge, and as Chuck Sr always said, where God leads, God will provide, so lets see what the provisions are before we condem. I do not attend a chuch and very honestly after learning about all the divisons in CC am happy I don’t . I love Jesus with all my heart and truly belive in the BIBLE totally and literally, ( yes I am a fundamenalist — I gues)
but I fellow ship with friends and co-workers and we share. I am A Christian a lousy one perhaps, but still a Christian. ANY group of people that do not teach love and do not teach the Bible are not of God, that is my opinion. Also as Chuck SR always taught us “hate the sin, but love the man” it seems that everyone has lost sight of that. How it grieves my heart to see that these divisions have come to Calvary, how some hypocripsy has entered in and what a lack of forgiving and love there seems to be for any thing that cannot be understood, or is not main stream. I do not thing that incense, icons or matra are a neccessary part of worship,and yet I do not read any where in the Bible where it is a sin, ( I have read the Bible several times and several versions of it) I just think this is man’s judgement, just like the Assembly of God at one time damned anyone who went to movies, dances, public beachs, bowling alley etc. Just man’s judgement, not God’s. How sad we allow man’s shallow judgement to divide us. If anyone is interested there are some BIG disagreements that I have with the Catholic church, such as praying to Saints, and degrees of sin, that why I am not Catholic. My prayer it that we stop judging each other, let God do that, it will happen soon enough, pray for the unification of not just CC but all Bible beliving churches and their leaders and also the layman. Christian’s have a tough enough time in this world to be condeming each other. Maybe some of you think I am off the mark and just don’t understand, and that maybe so, I am pretty simple, if God said it I believe it, If it is in the Bible I believe it. Just as a side note, God DOES perform miracles even today, I know that HE did for me, last year (May 2007) I was found to have a 10? inch tumor on my ovaries (small 5?1 116 pounds) and abnormal tissue in my left breast, I was sent to the lead specialist OBY Onogologist at UCI and Kasier, they believed it was Cancer and I had all the classical symptoms of late stage ovarian cancer which is quite deadly. I immediately called all my Christin ( and non Christian) friends and family and asked for prayer and also from several churches in my area. When they did the bioipsy the DR from UCI ( the re-known specialist in this field) thought it was Cancer, the ;DR fro Kaiser could not find Cancer, the biopsy was sent to Havard and Praise GOD–it was NOT cancer, so God does heal. ) I told both my DRs from day 1 that I beleived GOD would heal me and heal me through them). After waiting 2 months for the final diagnoises he did. Thankj God, just wanted to share that to anyone that need proof of modern day miracles. !!! In closing does anyone know how I can contact Chuck Jr. I would love to share this with him, also Mark Presley (from CC Costa Mesa, but he left in the 90s) and how is Pastor Romaine doing. If you have the answer to this please contact me at CamPaam@AOL.com. Thanks for letting me share.
An CCer from the Tent days.
198 Pam Stellrecht-Ong
May 2nd, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Just an explanation to the above. I credit Pastor Chuck Smith SR, for giving me an excellent education and believe in the Bible and Christian experience, I do not regret any of my time there. I Credit Chuck Smith JR for giving me a reason to believe in the church and church family again. Without both of them I would probably be missing out on the wonderful grace and love of our Lord Jesus because as a young teen ager I was very disappointed in what I knew as a church. Also, like CC taught me, and I feel this should be expanded to the “leaders” as well, if you are looking at me as a perfect example of a Christina, your sights are too low, look up, look to Jesus. Love one another and lift each other up in prayer and not condemation.
My blog was first put on PP of 2006. Sorry it it doesn’t make much sense. I lost my pastor, Chuck smith JR. Does anyone know how to locate him ?
Pam