Where did Todd Bentley get his schtick?
He stole it from notorious faith healer/heretic, William Branham.
In the videos below, note the similarities in the descriptions of "pillars of fire", "angelic visitations", and "whirlwinds" accompanying the alleged visions.
First Todd tells us a ripping good tale.
Now, Branham ;
Branham was a modalist who believed among other things that Eve had sex with the serpent, those baptized under the Trinitarian formula were damned, and denominations were the mark of the beast.
He proclaimed himself to be God's end time prophet and his followers believed he was the promised Elijah of Malachi.
A simple search of Google will bring up more bizarre doctrines espoused by this "prophet".
That's Todds daddy…Bentley claims Branhams angel comes to his meetings and he is supernaturally empowered.
“I first saw the angel called Healing Revival on December 5 of 2000 in Grant's Pass. The angel came to me again in Albany the next February. He stood in the church service with his body going through the ceiling of the church. Then the Lord told me the angel's name and that he was the same angel I saw in Grant's Pass earlier. God also revealed to me that this angel was involved in the ministry of John Lake, William Branham, and John Knox in Scotland. This angel, the Lord said, is from the North West Healing Revival and is manifesting again as a sign that God is restoring the Voice of Healing revival and opening up the ancient wells.”
Bentley claims that, whenever Branham’s angel shows up at one of his meetings, he gets…
“a supernatural ability in his left hand to diagnose people’s sicknesses, and he also gets correct words of knowledge about details from their lives — just as Branham claimed.
There you go…that's your Florida "revival" host.
This is very disturbing.
It’s supposed to be…
Michael,
I believe what you have written is fair. Bentley believes he has Branham’s ‘mantle.’
Bentley has had some hard times of late… about 2 years ago he had a season of being under a self-imposed removal from public ministry.
He also in the last year had a heart episode that was very serious and led to him losing a significant amount of weight.
I have seen him when he made me as mad as you were last night. I wrote to him, spoke against him, worked against his meeting and warned people to avoid him. It appeared to me that he responded to his critics and also to the reproof of the Lord.
He remains flamboyant and obtuse. But you all should know that his ministry has raised millions… I believe that is correct… for the poor in drought ravaged areas of Africa.
He is an enigma.
I have chosen to withhold judgment for a while. Perhaps I will say more later… for now I state again that I pray for the mercy of God to prevail.
Please continue speaking out and speaking your conscience. I do not get offended. I will only be offended if the truth is ‘bent’ about this situation.
Grace and Peace
Dread,
Between this and another situation going on offline, I’ve almost been brought to the end of my rope.
I greatly appreciate your words….greatly.
Thank you.
Excellent expose Michael.
Thanks, Nomans.
There is a Branhamite community and church in the region from which Bentley hails.
Branhamite doctrine, nostalgia and practice is a cancer that has to be cut away from the saints period.
You can try your best to lovingly reason while they are under it’s spell but you still need to cut it away with the Sword of the Spirit that is razor sharp.
Later,when they come to their senses they will thank you.
Michael
I thought Bentley was just another faith healer. I had no idea about all this stuff.
Good work.
On the 1st clip…
First of all, this guy is a terrible liar.
Electric, whirlwind, portal, beam me up, angels operating on him, guts coming out, …
Why does God sound like a robot?
God says He doesnt have TIME?
WHAT PLANET AM I ON???
Why does his electricity/ pillar of fire/ miter saw all sound the same?
Answer…
One too many science fiction flicks
It appears to me that this guy has been trying to manufacture a “revival” for quite some time.
In his mind, he has finally succeeded.
~Nomansalwayschoosespredatoroveralienologist
Nomans, wow
What Dusty?
Is my crazy showing?
LOL no not at all.
Here’s more about Branham.
http://discernment.org/precedin.htm
Whether or not the miracles he worked and the prophecies he told were true, Branham at least comes across as if he sincerely believes what he was talking about.
Bentley, on the other hand, comes across as an idiot. Has Bentley ever used drugs? If he’s not an outright conman it sounds, at the least, like he has some issues.
Michael, I understand the outrage and the despair and sense of “whatever” when it comes to people eating this garbage up.
I found myself in a similar frame of mind and weight of heart in a season of ministry not too long ago.
I was crying out to God about it in an afterglow time at a pastor’s conference.
God affirmed to me His acknowledgment of the intensity of the evil practices and perverse doctrines that seemed to be prevailing; deceiving and destroying in parallel.
Here was His Word to me: “But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” No smooth words to stimulate hope there, not yet, pretty blunt word from God.
However, a word followed promoting perseverance in the truth already imparted and received: ” But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them.”
But as I read those words I saw them connected in context to another verse very dear to me and many others; quite popular in terms of being quoted on it’s own.
“and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus, All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Yes that Word from the Lord was IITimothy 3:13-17
I saw that God intended to and will make good people with His good Word for good works in the midst of this garbage dispensed by these men.
Those good works include equipping the hearers with truth in love and exposing these hypocrites in the light of the true word.
Another avenue of good works is ministering to those who once ate the garbage and now have been eaten by it themselves.
Keep on brother,
He was an addict
vic,
Thank you.
“But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them.”
That is a prophetic word that covers many situations I’m facing right now.
Michael,
Your welcome. Your reply is my joy and reason for me to pray for you and those you are ministering to.
Well, Bentley’s whole “vision” just comes across as some sort of drug-flashback thing. And what he recounts having taken place in the hotel room seems even more drug fueled. It’s crazy.
I never saw Branham before this You Tube… he is a humble man. Would to God that his ‘mantle’ of humility would transfer….
As I stated before I also know that this man was heretical in his doctrine. I think this has to do with several things…
1. His apparent anointing to minister…When you minister with power you become convincing to people…you could tend to listen to correction less carefully.
2. His lack of education. This is a normal part of Pentecostal history. People like Branham become ‘authorities,’ based upon their success.
3. The absence of useful and effective correctives in the Pentecostal movement. Even today this movement is less likely to hold to strong discipline, is more likely to overlook aberrant theology, and more willing to accept novel and quirky behavior. It is a perfect fit for demagoguery.
Even though I count myself in the larger circle of ‘pentecostal’ practice I remain troubled by the practices and indulgence. It is also like most other groups, unwelcoming of internal dissent…so we will see in the long run.
The hard thing to deal with is that many many people will walk away healed and blessed and more fervent.
Open your eyes, open your hearts, and keep open your mind… but be on the watch, never lose vigilance. Never lose courage. For those of you who want to oppose such things as this is critiquing, I advise this. Try to avoid overstating your position. More battles are lost in the shades than won. Vitriol will win admiration but lose advocacy. We must be measured and cut with a two-edged sword.
What do you make of Branham… is he a brother with some confusion and error or was he a wolf?
Sheep Seeker Dread
“2. His lack of education. This is a normal part of Pentecostal history. People like Branham become ‘authorities,’ based upon their success.”
a normal part of pentecostal history indeed.
Dread, I believe the Scriptures paint one more possibility that neither brands a man a wolf nor does it affirm his brotherhood even though it does not deny his brotherhood out right either.
Paul in his address to the elders at Ephesus in Acts 20 spoke of men who would arise from amongst you drawing disciples after themselves. Wolves sneek in from the outside and then open up wide to devour.
Roger Oakland grew up in another heretical denomination in Canada; I do not agree with his current stance on the Emergent Church conspiracy but I understand the environment from whence he came and why he does what he does. He has confronted the leadership of that denomination and yet compassionately ministers to the common people of that denomination.
He feels like a lone ranger confronting wrong in the midst of cowardice. Unfortunately he has transferred that same mindset without making adjustments to other arenas.
“The hard thing to deal with is that many many people will walk away healed and blessed and more fervent.”
I find those same people later down the road hurt, broken and faint of heart.
Iwould remind my brethren that dispensationalism flourished in this soil and that CC is deeply rooted here.
In fact Papa Chuck is the ‘emergent’ flower of this.bud.
Cantankerous Dread
…and struggling in the fundamentals of faith.
That has been my observation as well.
Dreadly
Duly noted.
~Nomansknowsherrootsologist
But BD, I am more hopeful having found that our Lord is faithful having placed under shepherds such as your self in the midst of what brings me initial heartburn.
May your tribe increase and doors of opportunity open for you to equip others with the anointing of substance that is filled with the true weight of glory.
One more thing
Your place of grace has properly convicted my heart.
~Nomansafterthoughtologist
Dixie Dread, I’m listening to you.
Vic
Do not act as if there are only casualties in this movement. That is naïve and very neglectful of the facts. There are millions of satisfied souls at this well. No movement lacks in dropouts.
Drawer Dread.
The CC and Chuck Smith roots within Pentecostalism are true.
But the summarization of eschatology branded as dispensationalism has found roots and borne fruit far beyond in scope and long before modern Pentecostalism.
Though I have never heard him mention the specific name, CS has always expressed polite disdain for Sister Aimee.
Vic
I was drawing a sword as you offered peace I relent and thabk you
Your check to the cheek is welcome.
Todd Bentley gives a word for Portland at Shekinah Christian Ministries, October 19, 2000:
There is not just going to be a healing revival, there is not just going to be a release of healings and miracles, there isn’t just going to be a release of the healing revival within the city of Portland; but I see that there’s going to be a release of the supernatural, there’s going to be a release of visitations of angels, there’s going to be a release of signs and wonders that are going to happen in the heavens and in the earth of the city. Its not just going to be laying hands on the sick seeing the sick healed, it’s not just going to be a healing revival …
http://www.northwestprophetic.com/2007/10/todd-bentley-for-portland.html
Does anyone have any documentation that this prophecy is being fullfilled, or should we keep waiting??
dread,
I’m well aware of Smith’s past denomonation, it was the one sticking point for me.
Dispensationalism is not unique to the Pentecostal side of the house, nor is it the only eschatological view they hold.
Centy,
I’m pretty sure the Angels visited the Mariners in Seattle that year….
But nothing in Portland…
Nope,
no documentation here
~NomansisnotevenanMLBfanandstillknewtheanswerologist
BD, wacky, wonderful, wandering, wondering and wicked under shepherds exist across the spectrum. Therefore, well watered and nourished sheep neglected and wounded sheep are found in all places as well.
nomans………………….lol
The Foursquare Church has come a long way since the days of Sister Aimee.
Dread
Your place of grace has properly convicted my heart.
~Nomansafterthoughtologist
I am sorry I just cannot resist the impish joy of tweaking my dispensational friends… It brings me no small ‘chuck’le to realize that if you drop the dip from dispensational… you get (di)s(p)ensational.
Anyway… no one has taken me up on my original question…could I get a vote?
William Branham misguided brother or heretic?
Brother Dread
CK very true and I would stand on and agree with all 4 squares.
Centy and Nomans: if the Padres and Angels end up in the World Series; will this be the sign that it must be true?
Nomans,
Thank you …
Babylonswillworkforawesomeninjapowersdreadologist
I danced around your question and added another choice to the answer list.
Yes vic
You messed with the original autograph…
InerrantfingerscrossedbehindbackDreadologist
apparently, this thing in Lakeland may already be spreading.
The History and Future of the Present Revival
An extraordinary move of God is now breaking out in America. The breakout in Lakeland has been spectacular and is growing fast. We are experiencing a breakout at our base at Heritage, which in some ways has already surpassed anything we have experienced before. It, too, seems to be growing in intensity, and people are starting to come from far distances to experience it. News about other moves of God is also beginning to show up on the spiritual radar.
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Publisher/article.aspx?id=1000031456
I just love the internet for keeping us on the cutting edge
BD
I could never make that call.
That is Christs…
Mine is to trust in Gods’ pure righteousness & mercy joined in perfect judgement.
NomansfullofthefearoftheLordologist
Confused brothers usually respond to correction.
Heretics tend to be haughty while pronouncing the rest as unholy.
I know I still did not answer you.
hostile witness vic,
You see SirDread,
While many equate being wrong with not being His…
I could never err that way.
I’ve been wrong far too many times.
~Nomansiswhommuchhasbeenforgivenologist
I have to retire for the evening.
Blessings to the brothers and sisters,
adios vic. coming your way next month
Good night everyone…
Good night Vic & Dread
Does anyone know how to embed youtube vids into a wordpress blog?
Sorry Ryan, can’t help you with that one.
Captain Technophobe
what insanity!
Rather interesting video’s. Something I always found strange about my experience, folks can here this stuff just pure out from someone on tv and believe every single phrase no matter how outlandish. I dont speak up much about this stuff now, no one wants to hear it from me in the real world. I am not spiritual and I dont trust God yada yada.
As to why people do this, at times I think it is fear that the entire story just is not true. So to make it more true they add to the basics. Fear of your entire world view is a lie can scare the willies out of you. Personally I think God will work through all this and be victorious but I am dense that way.
Ryan try this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NopuJ_OYjsk
Ryan, I think this is it…
[youtube] LINK [/youtube]
Dread wrote this and more:
“He remains flamboyant and obtuse. But you all should know that his ministry has raised millions… I believe that is correct… for the poor in drought ravaged areas of Africa.”
The fact people come out “refreshed” or a ministry is feeding the poor is no sign they are true. Oprah does all these things and more.
This guy just reveals the gullibility in all of us.
As tiresome as it gets sometimes Michael preaching the Gospel, as Paul did, is our first and foremost calling. What we want to watch out for is that we don’t become like the Church of Ephesus mentioned in Revelations. We don’t want to lose our first Love.
Thanks for pointing Bentley out.
Drew
Babylon’s Dread-
“But you all should know that his ministry has raised millions… I believe that is correct… for the poor in drought ravaged areas of Africa”.
Does the end justify the means? I was involved with a similar movement years ago that supposedly came out of Toronto Canada. The pastor got involved and our services turned from teaching and preaching to rolling on the floor, laughter at inappropriate times, barking like animals, and spastic type body movements. I thought at first it was really God, but I did not grow closer to God through it, the focus was always on how I felt.
“Does the end justify the means”?
Babylon’s Dread knows better than that, you gots ta read between the lines sometimes with BabyD. He sends encrypted messages that are loaded with boomerangs
I do hope though that some little starving child’s tummy was filled for a season as a result of the “millions raised”.
Morning Scott…hey, do you have an email? I need to ask advice regarding becoming a builder. You can email me at fixingmyeyes@yahoo.com Thanks, bro.
BD,
I would offer a third alternative to your possibilities for Branham…that being he did have a power, but it wasn’t from God.
He was a stiff necked heretic with occult abilities.
I’m glad I can solve these mysteries for you all.
My thoughts on false teachers and their side shows
Is Jesus Enough?
It seems for many He is not enough for them.
They must have something spicy, something exciting, something thrilling. For some a Simple Walk with Jesus is not Enough.
They must have Miracles, they Must have impressive buildings, or impressive super star pastors. They must be something that is the latest greatest show in town
For them Jesus is not enough
The Jews complained about their Manna, and some Christians are not content with a good honest pastor, who feeds them a steady diet of Jesus, and the Word of God.
When in Egypt those who were slaves all left. You can do your own research, but in the OT the name Egypt and Bondage go hand in hand…. And the word Babylon and captivity go hand in hand. The Bible does not speak of the Captivity of Egypt, and it does not speak of the Bondage of Babylon. But always it speaks of the Bondage of Egypt, which speaks to the unbelieving world around us, those who are lost and know not our Lord. Babylon Speaks of those who know about Jesus, but have chosen something else, and have ended up in Bondage.
Those who ended up in Babylon were those who reaped from a nation for whom God was not enough.
A day came when their captivity ended, they were free to go home. A Day came when word went out, We are free to Return to the land. But the vast majority chose to stay in the land of Captivity.
You see, those who follow after false teachers, the most tantalizing latest trends end up finding themselves captives. Most choose to keep their captivity.
A day came for the Faithful Jews to return Home, a day Came to leave the Jews who were lost inside their houses behind and to return to their Real Home.
A day Come for us, to leave the captives in their captivity, and get back to our real work, and reaching out to those who are under the heavy yoke of bondage that Egypt speaks of.
There comes a time, when if people have become so comfortable in what is false, in the captivity of false teaching or vain philosophy, the leave them there, forget out them, and get back to our Home land.
If Jesus is not enough for someone, then I have nothing to offer them. I have long ago given up on the Captives. I may invite them to come home a couple of times, but won’t waist much time on them at all. They are at home in their captivity, so let them be. Move on to those who want to hear the Message.
It reminds of the words to a song that I is on the edge of my memory “You are lost inside your houses, there’s no time to say you know, I’m gonna leave you here and get down to the sea somehow” –not sure of the exact words of the song.
“I’m glad I can solve these mysteries for you all. :-)”
LOL!
Michael, can you help with high gas prices too?
Michael…do all who have powers not from God KNOW that they are not from God? I ask this in all sincerity, knowing that I had accurate “words of knowledge” as a new ager, but was not the least bit aware that I might have been evil. It was not until God opened my eyes that I knew the truth. The “words of knowledge” disappeared, by the way, after I got saved.
Did someone say the word Babylon and captivity go hand in hand?
Long Chain Dread
Linnea, UGM. I gotta run.
Later, ya’ll.
The number of times that the words Egypt and Bondage are used in the same verse 11
Number of time where Babylon and captivity are used in the same verse — 13
Number to times that Babylon and Bondage are used in the same verse ZERO
Well
At least Todd Bentley got the troops to engage ole Dread…I should have thrown in a couple of Bentley angel stories in the Revelation threads…
Anyway…I am no apologist for Todd ‘did you see my new’ Bentley. However, I seem to remember another debate about whether or not a man was ‘from God.’ Moreover, Jesus asked whether John’s baptism was from heaven or from men. (Luke 20:1-8) They did not answer him.
I assure you that these issues are not as clear as they seem. AND a man like Bentley, though completely offensive and horribly caricatured by so many, is not as easy to evaluate as it seems.
You guys dismiss my statements about his ministry of mercy. I could pile on and give you a far more impressive list of ‘good works’ done in Jesus name by his ministry. It would do nothing to convince you I only say…take care with your anathemas.
I laugh within myself because you guys have no idea how openly and aggressively I have challenged this man’s ministry. So do not misunderstand my intent here. I am simply saying that you should keep the thunderbolts in your pocket.
From Dread
Linnea:
Those who are false teachers probably don’t know it at the time. They really think they are doing God’s work. The Word is full of such examples.
This is why Paul teaches us through Timothy to correct with gentleness,
“with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.”
Some how through our actions God grants these people repentance and escape from their snare.
This reminds me to continually ask God to keep my eyes open to Him and not be snared up and become a false teacher.
Drew
Deadman:
I like the idea and the suggestion to ask ourselves, “Is Jesus enough for me?”
My observation is; for many of us, myself included at times, is NO!
Just think and meditating,
Drew
DMD-
How can Jesus not be enough? I really think some people just want a trip- you know? At one time I was looking for “a good feeling”, and the insinuation that somehow you were elite in God’s family (which is a common theme with the likes of the faith healers), is a big pull. For the person who may not be able to distinguish their passion for God and passion to be and do great things, this stuff can really trip them up.
Dread, could there be legitimate ministry to the poor simply because God loves the poor, orphans and widows and He is blessing the giver and their giving to accomplish what He cares about?
God can be opposed to Todd and for the poor in the same moment.
Did Todd originate the ministry to the poor, does he personally oversee it? Does Todd regularly start in his own community, a horrid place such as Hastings Street in East Vancouver where he will receive no press and recognition?
The answers to these questions will reveal the substance of his operations.
Acts 8:9-13
But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great.
They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.”
And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.
But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
John Michael Talbot (another controversial one!)
Would You Crucify Him?
Sometimes, in the cool of the evenin’
Truth comes like a Lover in the wind
Sometimes, when my thoughts have gone misleadin’
She asks that same old question once again…
Chorus:
Would you crucify Him
Would you crucify Him…, my religious friend?
Would you crucify Him…, talking ’bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If He’d walk right here among you once again?
She’s askin’, How many times have you looked down to the harlot
Lookin’ through her tears, pretendin’ you don’t know?
For once you were just like her, how can you be now so self righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone
So now I turn to you through your years of your robes and stained-glass windows
Do you vainly echo your prayers ‘to please the Lord?’
Profess the Marriage with your tongue, while your mind dreams like the harlot
But if the Judge looks to your thoughts can’t you guess your reward?
Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth?
You say that He didn’t mean what He was plainly sayin’
But like the Pharisee, my friend, you’re an educated fool!
Acts 8:17-24
Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money,
saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
“You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
“Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.
“For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”
And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
Mat 7:21-23
“Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,’ but they still won’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven.
On judgment day many will tell me, `Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’
But I will reply, `I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.
Unauthorized miracles…..
Miracles nonetheless.
Very interesting.
It’s about the heart.
Deadman nailed it.
Many want Jesus and
His power
His signs
His wonders
His healings
His prosperity
His charisma……
Who wants Jesus and
His poverty
His sufferring
His stigma
His rejection
His terrible cross.
Ugh. I could only stomach 3.5 minutes of Bentley in the video. He’d be better off writing science fiction. I was waiting for the fire of God to drop right on him.
Linnea,
I’m not sure I can answer that question with any degree of certainty.
What I can address is the fact that Bentley has chosen to emulate someone who was a renowned heretic.
Branham’s thought and history is available for any to recount and to willfully embrace him as a role model says volumes to me.
To be honest, I’m at a point where I believe the whole “charismatic renewal” was bogus in the first place.
The fruit from Azusa to now is very questionable.
The “great healing renewal” of Branham, Roberts, etc, is a joke.
Linnea
I have a theory.
I am a little apprehensive sharing it though, because it has not been proven to my soul…
Like you, before I was saved I had supernatural knowledge and signs that I can’e explain.
I would have clear dreams that would come to pass….
often.
After I got saved, I couldn’t reconcile how that could be.
Could it be that when we are born, we are born with the spirit make-up for everything God has in store for us, including our gifts?
Could it be, that just like our spirit, which has always been there, comes to life when we are “claimed” by God, that our gifts react the same way?
I know that the gifts are from the Spirit of God, and move at His will.
I also know that the gifts aren’t “ours” so to speak.
It’s almost like our adversary the devil, being ancient and crafty, sees those who have Gods fingerprints all over them, and fights to “own” them, that Gods’ giftings in them would be used for evil rather than good.
Someone please correct me here.
Nomans,
Sounds plausible to me….
Michael -
I’m the last person to defend charlatans from the pulpit…and I’m not going to start today. But before you entirely write off Azusa, keep in mind that God HAS worked in many many ways. Some people HAVE been healed. Many people HAVE experienced the gifts. As Dread pointed out yesterday, many people HAVE been saved.
That God chooses to bless in spite of the clowns that have the microphone is a testimony to His grace. That God hasn’t struck down these clowns is a testimony to His mercy.
Perhaps God chooses to save people through these means in order that He would later feed them through healthy churches. Who knows? It’s the unsearchable wisdom of God.
Michael,
I said correct me
I’m so confused.
Tim,
I think it’s at least worth examination…I would describe myself as charismatic because I believe in the continuance of the gifts.
Having said that, looking at the “prophetic” and “healing” ministries I find abysmal theology, no documentation, and lots of cash.
That has been the case from the beginning…
If you take the “prophetic” proclamations that come out of the Third Wave you find the same accuracy and spiritual content of the yearly astrological guides.
Can anyone tell I’m a little bent?
Can anyone tell I’m a little bent?
I was slowly catching on…
Catching hints here and there
Remember I am INTF
I’m a little “slow” taking emotional cues from my friends because the dang test says I’m insensitive
I’m still looking through the Gospels for the story of when Jesus lined up desperately sick people like cattle for the slaughter and knocked em down fifty or sixty at a time…with mixed results…
Nomans,
I knew that, so I kept talking.
Dusty
may I please have your email address?
LOL!!!!
Next time just say
“I’m bent!”…
Help an insensitive sista out!
Bob,
dust.shaker@gmail.com
Michael, Nomans,
too silly.
“I’m still looking through the Gospels for the story of when Jesus lined up desperately sick people like cattle for the slaughter and knocked em down fifty or sixty at a time…with mixed results…”
That’s one that always gets me too. I can find ONE place were people are knocked over in an encounter with Jesus, but it was the soldiers when they came to arrest Him. Somehow, I don’t think that’s the sort of people those folks want to be compared with.
Dread,
How is Bentley difficult to evaluate?
Bizarre stories, crank theology, and that abomination I viewed the other night make it very easy in my book.
That book being the Bible…
Tim,
That story has been used to justify the “slain in the spirit” phenomena for years.
Michael,
“Having said that, looking at the “prophetic” and “healing” ministries I find abysmal theology, no documentation, and lots of cash.”
I have no disagreement with you at all. But I’d draw a distinction between the leaders of the movement and the crowds. Some of them have surely been saved by the Gospel and blessed by God.
I personally think many of the leaders will be crying out “Lord, Lord” when they see Christ face to face.
“That story has been used to justify the “slain in the spirit” phenomena for years.”
That’s my point. To use it as a justification for falling down is to say, “Hey, I want look like a tool of Satan…knock me down like a Roman soldier.”
Tim said, “I personally think many of the leaders will be crying out “Lord, Lord” when they see Christ face to face.”
I worry that may be the case with leaders from all denoms.
Tim,
If God has chosen to sovereignly save some, it’s in spite of that stuff.
I find it amazing that this sort of ungodly spectacle is so popular…I do not believe that God is in it.
Just for giggles, here’s Todd’s “prophetic word” for 2008.
. 2008 IS A YEAR TO DISCERN WHAT IS BEST
“That which is good is the enemy of what is best,” said Bob Jones.
Good things will keep Christians in 2008 from the best if they think that when they’re “doing what’s good” it is “the blessing” of the Lord. I say that because in the midst of doing good things there is often an attitude of complacency. So the challenge is not to settle for, or just be content with, what is good.
Furthermore, unlike any other year, 08 is a year wherein somehow you “determine the bar” and this determination is connected to “you get what you say.” By that I mean–the bar will go as high or as far as you set the expectation, as well as by what you say–and God wants you to know that you can’t go too high. So why settle for what’s good when you can go higher!
Therefore, 2008 is a year to really press in and not look back at yesterday; as good as it might have been, like it’s some kind of grid that reflects all that God wants to do tomorrow. The challenge will be to live like the Apostle Paul said in Ephesians 3:20: “Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think…” dream or imagine “according to the power that works in us.”
Think and walk in an “exceedingly abundantly” mindset because God will do exceedingly abundantly according to the power that works within you! Great faith will establish this in your life. So press in!
2. 2008 IS A YEAR OF ADVANCEMENT AND VICTORY
The Lord said to me that He is going to cause us to triumph, to have victory, not defeat–it’s a prophetic decree, it’s a prophetic declaration–founded upon this scripture: “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith” (1 John 5:4). Real victory comes out of real faith and God is going to breathe again on what the meaning of real faith is. The only way we are going to overcome is by faith, and there is going to be a supernatural release of faith.
Faith is going to be energized! The level of faith will be so great this year that many impossible things will break through tremendously. So seek the Lord about faith. It’s time to walk in solid faith. Great faith! Understand everything that you can about faith and how faith works–to gain your victory. Truly, it’s in the simplicity of going back to foundational understanding about what real biblical faith is and how faith works that the most incredible anointing, revelation, and powerful miracles will be released. It’s because the Captain of the host is coming on the scene!
We’re going to see that the battle truly belongs to the sovereign Lord! Whatever battles you are entering into–battles that you have been fighting for years, battles in your family, financial battles, battles in your body–they’re going to be won. This is a year of victory–a year in which the very thing that has defeated you and has been a continual thorn in your side–will be overcome. That’s God’s promise! You’ve got it! You’ve already won because it’s a time of triumph–”Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ (2 Corinthians 2:14).
Claim–”This year is the year of victory!” Pay attention to what you say and be confident in the Lord. Expect victory!
3. 2008 IS A YEAR OF STARTING OVER, COMPLETION, AND NEW BEGINNINGS
No matter how it’s been in the past, this is the year that God is breathing out of Heaven saying, “It’s the year of starting over, completion, and new beginnings!” For God is going to give us the opportunity to do again what we failed to do before. This is the year of starting over in your business, or in your marriage, ministry, church, and more. You’re not going to keep going around the same mountain. That season is over! Completion! It’s a year of opportunity and grace. You’re going to get it right this time! You’re going to find something new happening in your life!
So, once again, don’t settle or be satisfied with those things that are “good” in your life. There is so much more. Be hungry; be desperate. Take it to the next level. Set a goal. Crank it up to the next level in your goals, in your ministry, in reaping souls, in your faith, in your vision. Remember, every time you go higher God will meet you there. That’s His promise!
4. 2008 IS A YEAR OF THE DOUBLE PORTION
Last year God asked me an unusual question: “Todd, are you ready to pray for people to receive a double portion?” Then, as I sought the Lord for direction in 2008, He brought that question to my remembrance as He said: “2008 is the year of the double portion”–
“Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, and instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; everlasting joy shall be theirs” (Isaiah 61:7).
Instead of shame, it’s double honor! Listen. If you have any shame it’s going to leave because of restoration; God is going to release miraculous restoration! You’re going to have double honor. Honor is favor, esteem and respect. Instead of confusion you will rejoice in your portion. As you live in the land, it’s double joy!
What’s more, did you know that every first born son, biblically, had the inherited right to receive the double portion? Here’s how this applies to you and me.
Since Jesus Christ is the first born, raised from the dead, and you have been made a joint heir with Him, you have the first born right to double portion. You actually have the right to “make a demand” on your Heavenly Father to restore and bring forth double portion inheritance and blessing in every area of your life. You have the right to live in blessing, in double honor, in double joy, and double goodness. You have the biblical right in Christ to receive the double portion blessing of the Father.
When the patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, released the first born inheritance, all they did was release the blessing, speak the word, give the impartation, and God made sure it manifested in the life of their first born heirs. I want you to understand, when there is a prophetic decree of double portion, it is God’s responsibility to bring it forth. He will be the one that commands whatever He needs to command in your circumstances to bring you the double.
5. 2008 IS A YEAR TO STRENGTHEN YOURSELF IN THE LORD
In the natural, if you want to lift four hundred pounds then you need to exercise, build yourself up and strengthen the little supporting muscles so that your whole core is strong enough to lift heavy weights. Likewise, in the spiritual, if you want to prophesy, see miracles, signs and wonders happen through your life, go into the nations, preach–then you need to exercise and strengthen your core. You need to take in spiritual calories through prayer, devotion, worship, praying in tongues, staying plugged in at church, abiding in the vine, so that you can go the distance.
You are only as strong as your core, and if you want to manifest the dunamis power of God it’s going to depend on the strength of your inner man. (Dunamis is a Greek word from which we get the word dynamic; it means great power, strength, and ability to accomplish something. See Luke 9:1.) That’s why it’s important to build yourself up in your most holy faith through prayer, getting up early in the morning to pray, meditating on the word day and night– those simple acts. Yet they are the most important ones to do!
David, during one of his most difficult trials, strengthened himself in the Lord (1 Samuel 30:6). He went into the secret place, called for the priest and asked for the ephod (holy garment). Ultimately, he wanted to seek the Lord, and in the secret place he received God’s counsel as he strengthened himself–”Pursue, for you shall surely overtake them and without fail recover all” (verse 8).
6. 2008 IS A YEAR OF JUSTICE
God told me that 08 is a year of justice. I’m talking about the kind of justice that comes out of Heaven. It’s not about revenge being justice. God is going to establish His justice; He is going to breathe on and bless justice. We’re going to see this. The media is going to prophesy, government is going to prophesy, kingdoms are going to prophesy. Laws will change. We’re going to make a demand on Heaven and we’re going to see God’s justice this year, and we’re going to see Him bring it forth out of His Kingdom.
Remember, in the spirit, the anointing of justice and moving in justice goes hand in hand with the kingly anointing. It’s the kingly anointing that establishes God’s judgment and justice. For example, when David reigned as king over all of Israel, he administered judgment and justice to all the people in his kingly anointing (2 Samuel 8:15).
Therefore, hold the ground in the “sphere of influence” that the Lord has given you. It might be for your work place; it might be for your city; it might be for the widows and orphans. Then take it a step further–advance His Kingdom–take more ground for the cause of Christ’s justice. As you do, you are walking in your kingly anointing. You are affecting the world around you for the glory of God!
7. 2008 IS A YEAR OF FOCUS
My focus is two more years of greater glory in God’s presence–supernatural giving, debt cancellations, miracles, signs and wonders, double portion, build. But don’t miss this. No matter what your focus is, when you get something from the Lord this year, when you know the kind of season you are in, be like a pit bull and dig into it. Don’t allow any distractions, trials, or even things that appear to be good to creep up on you. If they aren’t in line with your mandate, then don’t give them any attention. Declare the season you are in, stay the course and don’t let it go. See it through until God makes a change.
8. 2008 IS THE YEAR OF THE NATIONS
This is the year to “Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession” (Psalm 2:8). There is something about asking in the right season. We can ask any time, but then there are times when God urges us to ASK NOW!
Today, God is looking for those who will ask Him for the nations, because this is a God-ordained hour when Heaven is breathing on the nations–open doors, opportunities, and acceleration for reaping souls. God is breathing on His beloved, giving us authority over the nations. Listen. God saw Reinhard Bonnke, his passion for the harvest, and He is giving him a nation in Africa!
Nigeria is his nation! For about the last eight years Reinhard Bonnke has spent more time in Nigeria than any other nation. Why? The answer is because he has received God’s authority to take Nigeria for Christ. God gave it to him in 2000, and he said that until he reaps a harvest, he’s not concentrating anywhere else like he is in Nigeria. What about you?
For those of you who are pressing in hard for taking nations, I have a word for you. You are going to receive from God–the inheritance, the authority, the favor, and the resources–for taking your nation. You will experience quick advancement and you might even see God do more in this twelve month period than He’s done in the last eighteen years. And no matter what, it’s going to come by double portion! It’s “Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations…” and you’re going to break through so that you can take it to the next level. Watch, it’s going to explode! So pack your bags and go!
9. 2008 IS THE YEAR TO BUILD
Look at what Nehemiah said: “The God of Heaven Himself will prosper us; therefore we His servants will arise and build” (Nehemiah 2:20). Build! That’s the season Fresh Fire is in. After the dark night of the soul I received a word from Heaven. God asked me, “Do you know what time it is?” Then He answered, “Greater glory” and “Build! Build! Build!” We’ve got God’s word and so we’re focused, we’re building, and we’re building fast.
Listen. If you’re going to plant anything, build anything, launch out into any kind of ministry this is the year to do it. This is the year to create! It’s time…there’s oil on it! It’s a season in which God is fulfilling apostolic visions and dreams. So we need to be like Nehemiah. That means we need to know the season we are in, be focused, have a sword in one hand, and a hammer in the other! Like Nehemiah we need to be aggressive in order to go all the way–”The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matthew 11:12).
10. 2008 IS THE YEAR TO CONSULT THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM
ABOUT ANY DECISIONS
I was just having time with God in conversation when I received His caution–”Don’t make any major decisions without consulting the Spirit of wisdom, first.” Now I know that’s the word of the Lord all the time, but for some reason God wanted to emphasize it for 2008. He said this is the year to be extra careful with everything you do and plan; that you need to commit your works to Him; that the preparations belong to Him and He will establish your steps (Proverbs 16:9).
So look for the Shepherd that leads. He does so with the spirit of wisdom. In fact, in the Book of Proverbs, the first eight chapters are about wisdom. “She,” wisdom, was right there and the Bible says to exalt her, love her, honor her, and embrace her.
Know everything that you can about the gift of the word of wisdom. The Lord said that in 2008 there is going to be a provision of the supernatural word of wisdom and that He is going to give people, mantling them with the gift, the spirit of wisdom.
11. 2008 IS A YEAR OF GREAT ANOINTING
Leviticus Chapter 8 describes the time of consecration of Aaron and his sons, the seven days of holiness–”And you shall not go out of the door of the Tent of Meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration and ordination are ended; for it will take seven days to consecrate and ordain you” (verse 33, Amplified Bible version).
What happened on the eighth day? Aaron and his sons were ready, they met God’s requirements, and they were anointed to perform certain priestly duties on the eighth day (chapter 9:1–4). You want the anointing? You want to be anointed? Then there are certain preparations–purification and consecration–then comes your “eighth day.”
God said that this year, in 08, He is going to release a greater anointing; that it’s going to be a year of great anointing. I believe it’s going to be released into the lives of those who are prepared. Are you prepared through intimacy with Jesus Christ, the Anointed One? Are you a holy living sacrifice unto the Lord?
Leviticus Chapter 9:6 and 23 says that after Aaron and his sons did the things God commanded them to do (that they were anointed for), the glory of the Lord appeared to all the people. The anointing and the glory of the Lord go hand in hand! There is going to be a double portion–anointing and glory–for those who hunger after God, who walk uprightly and who honor the anointing!
12. 2008 IS A YEAR OF GREAT DELIVERANCES
David cried out to God and he saw great deliverances–”I waited patiently for the LORD; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry. He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my steps. He has put a new song in my mouth–praise to our God; many will see it and fear, and will trust in the LORD” (Psalm 40:1–3).
God heard David’s cry and He hears your cry! God told me, “Todd, there is going to be an anointing for people to cry out and be delivered. I’m going to release that sovereign anointing which is going to come in an instant, and people are going to be set free.” Freedom from whatever it is that’s bound you!
“There is coming an authority in 2008,” said God, “when we are going to see great deliverances, spontaneous deliverances, instantaneous deliverances by supernatural intervention.” One moment God will break through and in that moment somebody will come into their instantaneous freedom!
Michael, that’s the same thing all of those prophets say. Every single year. Well, that or doom and gloom.
Michael…8:52…thanks
Nomans…9:08…I’ve often wondered the same things. Still get fleeting thoughts, but often regard them as speculation and don’t look for confirmation.
More later…a busy day
Eats, Shoots and Leaves
INSIGHT NOT EMOTION
“I have to lead my life in faith, without seeing Him.” 2 Corinthians 5:7
For a time we are conscious of God’s attentions, then, when God begins to use us in His enterprises, we take on a pathetic look and talk of the trials and the difficulties, and all the time God is trying to make us do our duty as obscure people.
None of us would be obscure spiritually if we could help it.
Can we do our duty when God has shut up heaven?
Some of us always want to be illuminated saints with golden babes and the flush of inspiration, and to have the saints of God dealing with us all the time.
A gilt-edged saint is no good, he is abnormal, unfit for daily life, and altogether unlike God.
We are here as men and women, not as half-fledged angels, to do the work of the world, and to do it with an infinitely greater power to stand the turmoil because we have been born from above.
If we try to re-introduce the rare moments of inspiration, it is a sign that it is not God we want.
We are making a fetish of the moments when God did come and speak, and insisting that He must do it again;
whereas what God wants us to do is to “walk by faith.”
How many of us have laid ourselves by, as it were, and said -
“I cannot do any more until God appears to me.”
He never will, and without any inspiration, without any sudden touch of God, we will have to get up.
Then comes the surprise -
“Why, He was there all the time, and I never knew it!”
Never live for the rare moments, they are surprises.
God will give us touches of inspiration when He sees we are not in danger of being led away by them.
We must never make our moments of inspiration our standard; our standard is our duty.
~OC
BrianD,
It’s completely generic, can’t be tested, and sounds authoritative.
Actually, to me it sounds like a public restroom after the Fourth of July parade, but that’s irrelevant.
dmw’s 7:49 says it all…….
If Jesus is not enough, then what can be???? Is it because people really do not love the truth?? That’s an honest question, not an accusation. I’d like some feedback on that question.
Here is a verse to consider.
2Thes 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
DMW said:
“Is Jesus Enough?
It seems for many He is not enough for them.
They must have something spicy, something exciting, something thrilling. For some a Simple Walk with Jesus is not Enough.
They must have Miracles, they Must have impressive buildings, or impressive super star pastors. They must be something that is the latest greatest show in town
For them Jesus is not enough”
Here is the dividing line for each us, charismatic or cessationist and everywhere else in between. Is Jesus enough?? If not what is? and what are you placing your trust in?
Jhn 8:24
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
I was falsly prophesied over recently.
It made me angry.
It was flippant, and sensational.
God keeps bringing this issue before my eyes….
This is a big deal because words are a big deal.
God Word tells us that words carry life or death…
If we have people speaking lies over us, I think that would be categorized under death.
I have become very cautious with who I let “speak” over me.
Centy,
That is the bottom line.
For a person to but into this stuff requires a stunning ignorance of church history…I think of the martyrs and the “double portion’ of torture many endured because Christ was all.
“Actually, to me it sounds like a public restroom after the Fourth of July parade…”
I never thought of it THAT way, but I don’t disagree at all.
By the way, I assume that’s the toned-down version of what you really think
BrianD,
To be blunt, I believe a significant portion of the charismatic movement - not Sovereign Grace, not the Foursquare churches, perhaps not even the Vineyard churches or classic Pentecostal churches - but other parts of it are all about two things: financial, material and physical prosperity and money.
Nomans,
That is a wise word…there is power in these things, but we don’t always know from where.
Michael,
“How is Bentley difficult to evaluate?”
I can only tell you that I am somehow constrained to not speak against him even though I cannot refute many of the expressions that are stated here.
The broader swipes that are being made against renewal in general I will not accept. Not from you or others. But Bentley is offensive to me yet still I cannot condemn him … So I will step back a bit…
and let the Lord speak to my heart and mind.
Not to say that none of the charismatics are without their flaws.
But it’s a shame that everyone, who believes the gifts are for today and that God didn’t retire from performing miracles after the last apostle died, are sullied by these faith healers - guys like, say, W.V. Grant and Ernest Angley - propsperity preachers and so-called “prophets” and “apostles”.
Makes me wonder if the gifts are just another prop in their arsenal of tools to bring in the $$$$. After all, tongues is one of the easiest gifts in the world to fake: anyone can speak in gibberish. Healing’s easy to fake, too, if you know all the tricks.
BD,
As the greatly respected voice of the renewal to the PP, everything you share is listened to carefully.
I have spent way too much time the last few days in part of your world…and had to leave lest I become a serial killer.
What am I missing?
That said, I speak as someone who has been in and around charismatics and charismatic churches. I’ve read some of the materials, heard my share of sermons, seen plenty of TV programs to know that there’s a lot of crap out there.
There’s also a lot of good amongst charismatics. I would include Calvary Chapels in that. God’s Spirit doesn’t need a camera or microphone or crowd to move mightily.
DMW “Is Jesus enough for you”? Gosh, that question sent me on a trip down memory lane to listening to Pastor Romaine at CCCM. That was one of his favorite ways to put everything into perspective.
How are YOU Bro? Obviously, your spirit and soul are prospering….. we do remember you and Deb in prayers.
1 Cor 12:3 “Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking under the power and influence of the [Holy] Spirit of God can [ever] say, Jesus be cursed! And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.”
I have listened to Todd’s podcasts and teachings for several months now. He continually gives Jesus all praise, honor, and glory for everything that is happening. How is he doing that under the power of Satan, because that is what all the accusations assume.
Jesus himself said: Luke 9:49-50 ” 49John said, Master, we saw a man driving out demons in Your name and we commanded him to stop it, for he does not follow along with us. 50But Jesus told him, Do not forbid [such people]; for whoever is not against you is for you.”
Todd is a man like any other man. But he is reaching MILLIONS of people with the saving gospel of Jesus. William Branham was a man who fell into false doctrines, much like King Solomon who ended poorly, or Eli who Samual had to prophecy against. You all can make fun of what is happening in Florida, but people are being saved, healed, transformed, and delivered! They are going out and leading others to Jesus.
I grew up in a fundamentalist church. I have a Ph.D. in argumentation and debate. I could defend Biblically the end of miracles in 70 a.d. with the completion of scripture. That was until February 2007 when God turned me into a Charismatic Calvinist at 1:30 a.m. I cried for 4 hours over my sin guilt and my joy of salvation. I have prayed for people and they have been healed, some instantly and some over a period of time.
If what is happing in Florida is not a revival of God, then what do you think one should look like? Have you watched the testimonies of the poor, downtrodden, outcasts from society that are being delivered and set free?
Jesus said himself in John 10:37-38 “37If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me]. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].”
People are being healed and are coming to the stage and Jesus is getting the glory. That is not Satan! He still will not divide his kingdom of darkness against itself.
I am not saying that you should blindly follow anyone, or let anyone speak into your life who you don’t know and trust. But when people are coming from around the world and are going home healed and/or on fire for Jesus, isn’t that a revival?
Cary
Thanks for this article Michael.
If you wanted to model yourself on somebody, why would you pick Branham?
Pick someone who lived and ended well for Christ, IMO.
I went about 7 minutes on the Bentley video.
Dr. Voss,
I have yet to see a documented healing of an organic disease out of any of these “healers”
There is no biblical or historical precedent for any of this , nor is there any proof that any of the acts you mention are happening.
Given the importance that the Bible places on sound doctrine and instruction I doubt that any of this is legitimate.
Experience is not the plumbline for measuring spiritual truth.
I am a charismatic Calvinist as well and my spirit says that this is utterly fraudulent.
For example…
Bentley claims angelic visitations and entrance into the “third heaven” are to be normative for believers.
Can you give me a biblical or historical basis for that?
From Chris Elrod’s blog;
“I am comfortable enough to say that I have some questions as to the validity of it. There are several reasons for this…the main one of which is that the Assemblies of God in Florida (of which the church in question is a part of) is not endorsing it…Southeastern University is not endorsing it (I respect their leadership very much)…and very few people in Lakeland or Polk County are even aware that it is going on…or are affected by it. The majority of the attendance has been from people flying in from other parts of the world desperately trying to relive what happened at Brownsville and Toronto. Those in Lakeland…or from Lakeland…are also skeptical of the church sponsoring the event. This is not a new church…just a new name. It is the remnants and leadership of a former hyper-Charismatic mega-church that came crashing down amid scandal. This will not have been the first time the church or its leaders has used “signs of wonder and healing” to hype itself on the national and international Pentecostal stage. Most folks in Lakeland are looking at the “revival”…and the hype from the church sponsoring it…as “same song second verse”.”
dread,
when you come back, talk with me about this. Renewal. My question has always been where is the tangible, abiding fruit??
Let me relate to you personal experience. Oddly enough, most of the people in my church do not have a Calvary Chapel background. The vast majority are from Pentecostal and Charismatic experiential backgrounds such as UPC, AoG, Church of God, Vineyard ( the extreme charismatic churches), Four square (again the more extreme charismatic churches), Bethel in Redding, CA, (if I remember correctly your wife spent some time there), Haggard’s former church in Colorado Springs, and I know I’ve missed a few. They were involved in same manifestations as Toronto and the prophetic movements with the KC prophets. I could tell some stories, but I’ll refrain.
The over-riding theme of all these people is that there charismatic experience left them unfulfilled and wanting. That’s why they are in our church, most who know very little if anything about Calvary Chapel.
Now I have some in the fellowship that have some giftings and I know the Spirit speaks to them. There is wheat and there is chaff here.
I would much rather give them the wheat of the word of God rather than to use it as a springboard for some prophetic issuance, although I do admit, that I speak prophetically when I teach at times. One of the women in our church has really picked up on it and it really does minister to her soul.
I think I am picking up some of your reservedness here, my concern is that I cannot jump wholesale into something that I do not believe has as it’s foundation AND framework the subjective word of God.
I hope you see that I’m trying to dialog with you here. There is some type of balance here, although I would guess like most things you and I would define that differently.
It interesting. You and I came out of the same denomination, both received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then went in to different directions…………….
charismata cent
Dr. Voss,
I would not ordinarily question someone’s academic credentials, but since you use yours to lend credibility to what you are saying about the veracity of this “revival” I am just a bit curious. Where did you receive your PhD? I have never heard of a PhD in “argumentation and debate” so I am just wondering.
Centy,
Excellent…I hope we do get a dialog here.
Dave,
How did I miss that?
Dr. PP
I don’t mean to be rude–really..
But if i was sitting in a church listening to that claptrap, I would get up and walk out, believing the man to be under the influence of drugs, organic mental illness, or something–sheesh.
Then I would go home and be by myself, where I would be in the presence of another madman.
centy,
I cannot stay right now…doing chores…headed soon to the airport… but my family is the abiding fruit of renewal…though 10 years may be a short while…
Yes there are many dropouts and drop ins… the revolving door swings ALL AROUND… Tell me what abiding fruit evidence you want and I will try to dialogue.
Todd Bentley is the far extreme of the people in my circle… and though he is welcomed widely in the movement, He would not be invited to my fellowship.
My preference would be my good friend Randy Clark, who I would defend like my own family…and yet the same manifestations that surround Bentley have been around Randy for some 15 years now.
Anyway…I have to go for now…
Thanks centy I want the dialogue.
Michael
“what am I missing?”
I would not attempt an answer I am the recipient of far too much generosity on your part to instruct.
Dread,
I find good instruction very generous… if you choose.
Dr. Voss -
“But when people are coming from around the world and are going home healed and/or on fire for Jesus, isn’t that a revival?”
No. A revival is when the gospel is being preached and souls are being saved. It’s when those who have been in death are experiencing new life. Hence, “revival.”
Where are the conversions? Where are the renewals? Where is the preaching of the gospel?
I may not have a PhD in debate, but I can recognize BS when I see it.
Dave,
I received my Ph.D. from the University of Kansas in 1998. My dissertation was on the negotiations between the FBI and Branch Davidians. I coached three teams to the final round of the National Debate tournament. I also do flintknapping demonstrations for the Texas Archaeological Society.
Do a google search for Cary Voss and look at the hits. I teach currently at Victoria College in Victoria, Texas.
http://www.victoriacollege.edu/facultystaffdirectory#v
Cary
Dr. Voss or Cary:
“That was until February 2007 when God turned me into a Charismatic Calvinist at 1:30 a.m. I cried for 4 hours over my sin guilt and my joy of salvation.”
This, “God turned me into a Charismatic Calvinist,” really struck me because I have gone the opposite way. I was saved by a Pentecostal brother telling me about speaking in tongues and then having me read what the scripture said about being born again.
Since then I have been a local leader in Full Gospel Business Men’s fellowship, a credentialed A of G pastor, seen and met personally Benny Hinn, John Wesley Fletcher, Pat Robertson, his wife, Ben Knichlow, and many other charismatic and faith healers.
Why do I say this? Because I found the extreme faith and healing ministries teach basically a false Jesus. They take the word way out of context and basically fleece the sheep of their financial assets for a false promise.
I mentioned Pat Roberson, Ben Kinchlow and some others. While I might disagree with them on some of their doctrine I did find them to be honest and forthright men who desired to see Jesus and His glory come to people’s lives. Benny Hinn and John Wesley are not on this list however.
How did I make the turn and do I still believe in the “gifts of the Holy Spirit?”
I started to read and study God’s word in context. God led me to men and yes women with the gift to teach others how to study the bible. What I found in the Word was truth and a deep love of God for His creation. Men like Ray Vanderlaan, John Piper and women like Kay Arthur.
Do I believe physical healings, speaking in tongues, baptism in the Holy Spirit are biblical and still in use today? You bet! But, men like Bentley are not where I would go for any truth.
So I guess I have become a Charismatic, Evangelical, tongue talking almost Calvinist. Oh, and by the way I can’t be an A of G pastor anymore because I don’t hold to the “Fundamental Truth” of speaking in tongues is the sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
BTW I rejoice that you have had an experience with God and the Power of the Holy Spirit which has turned your life around. Since the day that brother in the Lord sat me in his front room and showed me the scriptures I have never been the same. It has been a blessed ride.
Respectfully,
Drew
Dr. Voss,
I looked at the UK catalog and certainly couldn’t find a major that would approximate “argumentation and debate” in a PhD program. I’m sure it was an unconventional program and I give you credit for completing it. And making a tie in between argumentation and debate and the negotiations between the feds and the Branch Davidians must have been a real challenge. I’m surprised we haven’t heard of you. But I know I am no match for an associate professor in speech from a Texas junior college so I think I’ll just concede the point right now. You are correct. This revival is the real deal!
the feds did a good job negotiating when the went in with guns blazing
remember Waco cent
that wasn’t an angel he saw in Grants Pass…it was the Caveman statue at the north entrance to town!!
gp-filistine
Ouch, Rolph is brutal! The doctor may want
to take his PhD and go home right about now.
Hah hah. Voss got pwned!
You are too funny, Rolph. 
Dr. Voss,
What do you have to say about the nature of the prophecy listed above by Michael?
Deuteronomy 13:1-5a
“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God
In qualifying my post, I understand that this was specifically addressed to Israel, but the Lord does not change, and so His attitude concerning misrepresenting Him by prophesying falsely surely has not changed for the church. Yet the whole of that prohecy says little that is conclusive and is interspersed with lingo to give it the appearance of authority. How can one verify it’s true? (and therefore it’s “safe” from being proven false).
Another way of looking at the man’s words: Aren’t the prophecies in Scripture very detailed and specific? Many of them did deal the same themes - Israel’s unfaithfulness, return to the land (I especially like the Messianic
). From what we have in canonized Scripture, real, Holy Spirit-inspired prophecy was verifiable, albeit sometimes hundreds of years in the future. What is listed above is generic and unverifiable, and the person speaking those things is misrepresenting the Lord, and should not be followed or heeded.
As a digression, do I believe that the Gospel can save even if the preacher is mal-intentioned (something I do not know of the man quoted above)? Yes! Do I believe people are being saved? Wherever the Gospel is preached! But into what sort of doctrine are they being led? How are the sheep being led astray? If the above quotation of “prophecy” is any indicator, then the words from this man’s mouth are leading them astray, and it would be better for a millstone to be tied around his neck than for him to offend even the least of those.
I hope you receive my words as meant to be dialogue, not ad hominem attacks. May the Lord bless your day!
Quotation
Welcome to the blog Dr. Voss.
Is anyone watching God.tv? They moved to a stadium now in Tampa. The stadium is packed.
Scott,
Nope…watching the Cavs v Wiz and keeping up with three blogs while watching my two kids and my dad while my mom and wife are at our ladies retreat.
too busy for “revival”
MPH~ LOL!
Ryan, I figured instead King James, I’d check out the New International Version
So far it’s like watching a Harvest Crusade (the music), well, except most of the people are jumping up and down!
I’ll have to check it out…do you have DirecTV? If so what channel is it on?
Ryan, it’s God.tv a website.
I’m not encouraging anyone to watch. I’m just hanging out by myself at home and figured I’d at least watch a bit.
Scott…found it.
Now I can go back and forth between the King James and the New World Translation
Well folk,
I am gonna watch a while…
Dread…is Mrs. Dread home?
yes
She says Todd is a bit much to take but the healing power is real. Many are being healed. It is not yet revival but it is authentic.
What is the criteria for deciding that the healing is real?
Same as it is on the pages of scripture the testimony of healed people and those who know them.
Dread…Please tell her welcome home for me.
Oh, and Dread…does your church have any missions trips planned this summer?
Thank you Linnea
She sleepeth…
Yes,
We are going to Kodiak AK, and to Sheffield England… then some individuals will go to some other places…
Are you taking any teenagers (18) and a parent? I so want my son to go on a missions outreach before he goes off to college.
This guy is Benny Hinn with tats. As Elrod said, “same song different verse.”
Howcome in Acts 3 one man was healed dramatically in the presence of all. Why did Peter not establish a healing line to demonstrate his anointing instead of preaching the gospel with boldness, clarity and conviction.
Was it because of unbelief on the part of the crowd? I would say not as another 2000 were saved and added to the company of the disciples.
How come none of the existing 3000 disciples who existed at the beginning of that day were healed?
The ratio; one healing that was visibly authenticated to a crowd and
2000 souls saved and brought to Jesus.
That is a healing with a testimony. From the pages of scripture.
Ryan, you think that’s something? These Guys don’t hold a candle to A.A. Allen.
He was the quintessential 20th century “Faith Healer”. His command of the scripture and ability to work the crowd was uncanny.
Check out this Youtube of him, while on the stage, God supposedly caused anointing oil to flow from his hands supernaturally!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EkUyrY7bi_A
It’s also funny that Jesus always told people, “don’t tell anyone”
whereas this guy is calling for the press to write articles, and run programs.
hmm…makes you wonder whose ministry is being modeled.
Scott,if he was really authentic then fire from heaven would have also fallen; chickens would drop from the sky and they could combine all three and feed the poor with fried chicken.
Vic, I sort of see your point, however, are you saying that the text confirms that only ONE person was healed at that time? Or that Luke only recorded the one miracle?
John 21:25
As a precursor sign, the chickens would fly first.
Ryan, did Jesus “Always” tell people not “tell anyone”?
Scott, the point of emphasis really being upon the preaching of the gospel authenticated by introduction with the one healing and then post sermon authenticated by transformed lives.
Luke was a good investigative reporter and historian with a conscience and a bent for accuracy. If the healing had launched a series of other healings then such a record of testimony would have existed for Luke to report.
Yeah, Luke did record this just a short later though:
Acts 5:12-16
“12 Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. 13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high esteem. 14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
I am sure Jesus by the Holy Spirit visited the inner sanctums of homes and dark shadows of the streets to touch people with healing and comfort in answer to their prayers and to authenticate with sweet assurance their acceptance as individuals who now had unlimited and never ending access to His throne of grace.
“I am sure Jesus by the Holy Spirit visited the inner sanctums of homes and dark shadows of the streets to touch people with healing and comfort in answer to their prayers and to authenticate with sweet assurance their acceptance as individuals who now had unlimited and never ending access to His throne of grace.”
That’s one of the reasons many of the folks that are gathering in these “revival” meetings are going.
They’re hoping that Jesus will do for them what He did for the ones I mentioned from Acts 5
Scott in reagards to Acts 5: Yes, the regular preaching of the gospel, instruction from the word, love lived out with one another in word and deed, courage in the face of persecution, and confrontation of blatant hypocrites exhibits the fullness of the Holy Spirit that the church walked together in corporately as individuals.
What a drawing card for people to step out of the recesses of despair and doubt to call upon Jesus and receive healing under the banner of the glorious gospel of Christ crucified and risen.
Scott…no he didn’t always tell people not to tell anyone but he certainly didn’t try to whip people into a frenzy nor did he try to get the Jerusalem Post or the Galillee Times to write stories.
Acts 5 is a demonstration and confirmation of the power of a command obeyed that Christ spoke of as foundational and crucial to authenticate His gospel. Specifically John 13:35
Those that cried for healing understood the Jesus they were looking to and the total work that He wanted to do; a cry for healing in the light of grace initiated wholeness. The Apostles were not mediators of anointed power, they were representatives of an authentic discipleshp.
Vic, that sounds like a message you must of given (?)
THE CALLING CARD OF THE CHURCH
How to experience the authentic moving of the Holy Spirit in a culture that desperately needs him!
I was gonna give you a 5 point outline, however, I figured you already have one
Ryan, I’m just trying to keep you in the straight and narrow. When we say “Jesus always” we better make sure. Insert smile here.
Scott…I stand corrected. I knew that’s what you were saying. Forgive me if my last post was a bit strong…didn’t intend that at all.
Scott, just a word that came forth now fed I guess from words and prayers of the past. I do not really know exactly. But thanks for the affirmation, I need to open up Acts and pray through it again.
Scott, I really appreciate you and this interchange; you too Ryan and Dread, Linnea and other participamts as well. Oh yeah and Kudos to the founding pastor also.
Our interchange here is fuel for some good Holy Spirit initiatives to touch us and those around us.
Blessings, gotta go at least until the nightshift.
“Those that cried for healing understood the Jesus they were looking to and the total work that He wanted to do; a cry for healing in the light of grace initiated wholeness.”
Vic, whose cry for healing are you talking about? The Apostles or the people who needed healing?
Blessings on you too Vic.
Ryan, I thought I was gonna have to lay hands on you! Old Testament style that is
Todd is…
leading people to Jesus…tonight…
I have watched this guy over the years…this guy that I see tonight is different than the one I used to see. I will answer my own question from earlier in the post…
He is one of us… pray for him because you are watching history. This thing may spark something that goes down in history…
This is no more foolish than the early days of the Jesus Movement.
A new hunger of salvation will arise in the nation…when God speaks nothing can resist his voice.
Ok I have been watching and taking the measure of the man… Sorry to those who disagree but I am endorsing what I see tonight.
Peace
Glory to Jesus
Hi everyone.
Hi Dusty, how are you tonight?
He’s different now? Did Branham’s angel abandon him?
Dread…I too believe that God will bless this work because Jesus is being preached. (Phil. 1:12-18)
However I cannot endorse what I see as I don’t see it in Scripture.
Blowing the Holy Spirit on people while yelling “bam bam” like some Hanna Barbara cartoon figure not only seems arrogant (I can dispense the Holy Spirit)it’s just plain weird.
Question…why are the sicknesses and diseases always things that you cannot verify?
Why don’t we see someone with down syndrome becoming whole?
I might as well get it out of my system.
I think he’s a demonic charlatan.
Sorry, BD.
Hi, Dusty.
I saw Branham’s angel, once.
He was hanging out at the world headquarters of Mr. Branham, somewhere in southern Indiana, supposedly outside of Jeffersonville. I drove past it by accident.
He was also trying to find his way into town, since Mr. Branham’s world HQ was way out in the middle of nowhere
Hi Dusty, Michael, Dread, everyone.
Ryan,
That question has been asked since Allen and Roberts started…the answer is obvious.
There Michael! You got it out of your system, do you feel better now?
Hi, BrianD,
I stayed out of this all day because I’d need a healing for my blood pressure…
Dread, would you further explain how Bentley has changed, in your view, from the man he used to be?
Scott,
If I had the ability to do something about these guys I would feel better.
Michael, my doctor once told me they sell blood pressure pills real cheap
He’s changed, he’s not nearly as fat.
Michael, I think I can help you out. The next time a Jehovah’s Witness comes to your door……
Thanks a load, Scott.
I’ll step away from this now.
Think I’ll go chop down the neighbors house and give them Scotts card..
Michael, you can them “I got your New World!” “Come on in!” LOL!!!
You know, for Michael’s sake, perhaps we should talk about something less controversial, like politics
I also think it’s arrogant that he keeps calling this an historic event.
“Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.” (Proverbs 27:2)
I didn’t hear him begging for money…did I miss that part or does he not do that?
Sorry, my computer cut out…
I am wondering…if God is pouring out His healing power in FL and other places….can I ask for healing for the many requests on our prayer lists? I always ask for complete healing for everyone on the list…knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that our God is able to heal each and every one…Will He?
Will You Lord? I won’t ask for myself, I only ask for my friends, the many requests on our prayer lists. Will You please heal them, restore their minds, their health, their whole being…humbly, hopefully asking in Your Son’s name.
Ryan…ROTFLOL….I understand your agony… I’ve been shot, blown on, pushed, yelled at, and tackled a time or two… I even had one guy use the f=word praying for me…. I think I will just leave it at that and let you all shake your heads in disgust….LOL
Michael,
Isn’t it miserable… you love me and are trying to give me grace but I am endorsing a ‘demonic charlatan’ and it is giving you seizures…LMHO… I guess I should step back and let you enjoy your rant.
I really love you guys….but that stadium was full of people that I love and hang out with… even the idiot zionists… oh yeah…I hang out with them everywhere…no matter the whole world is Zion.
Hey Michael, lay your hand on the monitor and get healed of all that high blood pressure….or just run a lap around the house…
All In Good Fun Dread
Jeremiah Wright is a ….
Dread…now you know how us CC guys feel.
We don’t condone nor justify the crapola that is reported here but often times our friends get caught in the fray.
Ryan,
That is one of the changes… Todd usually takes a hour offering…He has hardly taken any at all during this whole event…. The money has been very low key… He takes shameful offerings so I am most glad to see that change.
I gotta go …I am still laughing at myself…
Hey just for the fun of it… I never saw anyone giving raise your hand invitations in the Bible either… or singing “just one more verse because the Lord is dealing with someone still.” We got loads of nonsense that we have learned and adapted. These guys just push the envelope.
Lakeland Dread
dread,
You do pose a great dilemma.
I do love you and I do believe this guy is a devil and would do a Pentecostal jig if God smote him down on TV.
Matter of fact, I’m praying for it.
Such is my lot…
“even the idiot zionists… oh yeah…I hang out with them everywhere…no matter the whole world is Zion.”
Talk about ROTFLMO!
Hey just for the fun of it… I never saw anyone giving raise your hand invitations in the Bible either… or singing “just one more verse because the Lord is dealing with someone still.”
Don’t get me going Dread!
so Todd has changed… and dread endorses…
an important consideration, dread said it yesterday.
“No movement lacks in dropouts.”
Ok, but let’s be equitable across the board then.
The voices of those who leave movements bring an important piece to the table. Isn’t that what this blog has been about, at least until recently?? There are people who participate regularly in this blog who have never stepped foot into a Calvary Chapel. Some of them are fairly vocal with their concerns, an opinion that has been shaped second hand, by the experience of others. Dropouts have a valid voice, the question is, in the overall evaluation of any movement, how much??
Other means of evaluating a movement is by the lasting fruit. I’d refer you to the parable of the four soils (Mat 13). Practice and methodology is another important piece, and in this case a very important one. What we see must be evaluated based on scripture.
Dread…I wrestle with much of that extra Biblical ecclesiology.
Ryan,
I been thinking about that all week…
Trying to tell myself that this is different but…it ain’t.
At least I can honestly say to you guys I understand the offense you feel. Even tonight ole Todd keeps tying things to himself in subtle ways that I ‘hope’ are not intended.
But …the Lord has been restraining me from rejecting it… now I will just endure the rejection with Todd. Who knows maybe God will let me speak into his heart …clearly someone has.
Diane…if that angel thing bothers you
Well, you can send yours to me…. I keep mine pretty busy.
Not So Angelic Dread
Once my daughter went to Bosnia on a mission trip. One thing that struck her is that the Muslim people were so dedicated to their prayer life and god that they stopped what they were doing and prayed right there in the streets where they were at. They prayed 5 or 6 times throughout the day. Even getting up in the middle of the night to pray.
How many of us, who serve the True, Living God are that committed to Him? To stop and kneel to pray in the middle of everything…in the middle of the street, in the middle of the night….
(not sure what this has to do with anything….just felt led to share it)
Michael, in faith, put your hand on the screen and agree with Dread…
Ryan, I said with every eye closed! You close your eye right now!
You guys are freaking me out right now…
Nomans~ In a good way, or bad way? Freaking out means different things in different cultures.
As we always say, if God uses him to heal people, why doesn’t he hold his revival in a cancer ward? Why doesn’t he go to Malawi and heal a whole village of AIDS?
I’m with Michael.
Evening folks. Looks like a fun evening!
Hearty “amen” to Dread’s comment about the various “nonsense” traditions we’ve embraced in the modern day church (alter calls, hands raised, etc).
We’ve been sick this week. I read Pilgrim’s Progress …..wow…. I’m such a wimp! Now I’m re-reading “In Search of God Knows What” by Donald Miller. He does a great job of pointing out so much of our superfluous empty churchy practices.
Scott…. you were about to say something about Dr Wright? … In spite of the press baloney about him, his preaching is powerful! I heard a message from Isiah 9 by him including him singing “what can wash away my sin? Nothing but the Blood of JEEE-ZUS”
Nomans~ In a good way, or bad way?
Yes
Between you & Big Guy, I thought I was in an old fashioned tent revival meeting for a minute there.
paigemom~ BrianD had suggested that we might want to change the subject to “something less controversial like Politics.” Thus the Wright reference.
Maybe Michael has critique of Liberation Theology he can share with us!
I simply cannot understand how anyone can embrace or endorse this.
If the fat …… has a real gift send him to childrens hospital to prove it.
Evidently they won’t allow little ones to be used as props there.
I’m getting angry again…
Nomans~ We’re “Zionists”, we learned from the best! LOL!
In through the nose…..
:insertdeepbreathingyogaguyhere:
Lotus position now!
I’m with Michael, too.
Just because someone is healed means nothing.
There have been all kinds of healings in the history of Mormonism, along with angelic appearances, for example, and in Christian Science,
just to mention two cultic groups.
Diane,
Thanks….I let stuff get to me..
Lutheran,
The whole thing is unbiblical and ungodly and it so bleeping obvious…
I said I was going, didn’t I?..:-)
I had never heard of God.tv before this recent round here. I have to admit, I kinda like Rory & Wendy Alec. People that speak with British accents always sound so believable to me for some reason.
Well Michael,here is some encouragement.I saw Todd Bentley meetings canceled after I prayed that God would protect the city and people where I was from this predator.
Sometimes when you pray for the peace of the city where you are you start by praying against the predators.
For the record…
There are now many churches that do send healing teams to hospitals. And since Africa was mentioned above…I know a ministry where cholera hit an area…a sixty bed hospital filled with only children was in the area… the people that I know went to the hospital, held and cleaned and prayed for the kids… Not one worker got sick… and in less than a week EVERY child went home well… The doctor quit the hospital and joined the ministry.. That was in Maputo Mozambique
Why do you guys get so mad about people getting ministry for illness. You pray for sick people here all the time. Why do you get amped up because someone prays and then lets people actually testify about what is happening… Do you think all those people are lying? Or are they all being made into props…
I think you are upset about forms…more than actualities… I have been to scores of meetings similar to the one tonight. The healed are all full of joy and even the ones who are ill receive love and are rarely bitter. I have never been healed and I do not get angry at them or God or anyone…
Anyway sounds like I am debating and in fact… I DO UNDERSTAND why there is reaction.
When that kid ran the bases I was praying big time that he would not fall out…
Gimp Dread
“There have been all kinds of healings in the history of Mormonism, along with angelic appearances”
There has been in the Christian church too.
Scott,
What’s your point?
Dixie Dread said,”Not one worker got sick… and in less than a week EVERY child went home well”
Woo Hoo!!! Praising God with you Dread!!
Dread, we get mad because we suspect these guys are using sick people for their own glory.
Vic,
That made my night!
If he ever tries to come to Medford I’ll do the same…along with sending an autographed picture of my shotgun.
Michael
Your shotgun can write?
Now THAT’S a miracle!
Dread,
He’s not doing ministry, he’s using desperate people for his own agenda.
There is a special place in hell for people that would do that to the children I saw yesterday.
Nomans…
Vic, where do you live? I want to check the religious directory of your city
Usually,
I would be agreeing with you guys…I simply have been restrained from joining a public outcry against this meeting….
Diane,
If that is the case… a pox on them… I join you in condemning such evil.
I had been hearing that Todd had changed, had gone through some sort of discipline, had been ministered to by some wise elders… I think I see a difference in the man… I think he has been receiving the counsel he has been given.
I am sure if you saw all the way through to the end that you were troubled by the Paul Cain phone call… Paul had a year of discipline and is back in public life… I have seen him he is frail and humbled from his earlier ways.
These pentecostals do forgive….
Dread~ Your 8:53, so what! That doesn’t prove ANYTHING (tongue in cheek).
Dread,
With all do respect, how come all these stories of miracles are in Africa with no verification?
Are there no sick people in Cleveland, or Portland?
Seems to me that a miracle healing in America would be very easy to verify….and it doesn’t happen.
Paul Cain?????
Now there’s a helluva story…I think I’ll puke.
Why couldn’t these guys just start walking through hospitals and healing people, anyway? Why not?
Scottie
True
Michael,
Good night my friend… I will be traveling soon… do not take my absence as my being offended…. I am not. Rather I am more afraid that you may prove correct…
May the Lord give us all true discernment to approve that which is good and reject that which is evil….
Keep em honest gang….
Where did I put that CC app…
WigglesDread
Dread,
It takes a lot of class and a lot of character to stay in with me when I’m on a rampage.
Grace and peace to you, my brother, my friend.
I’m going to use my subliminal technique on Michael and help him to calm down.
Parting Shot
Jesus passed a whole lot of sick people and never cleared a hospital…
If one of these guys emptied a hospital you would say he did it by beelzebub…
Get some better critiques….
Ok I was in such good form and now I am back to being…
Jacka$$ Dread
Well, Michael, I was going to use my Kahlua Gravatar on you, however, it didn’t show up for some reason. Oh well.
Safe travels BD, blessings on you and yours!
Michael,
I love you dearly friend… really… now touch that screen!
Really Really Leaving Dread
BD,
Scott,
There is no need for a gravitar as I have a large bottle of liquid calm directly in front of me.
I wonder….when Jesus raised someone from the dead, did the previously dead person have to provide a death certificate to prove that he really was dead?
Really good discussion…Dread, as always my respect for you just grows. And Michael, Dread is bigger than you so ya better play nice!
I’m just popping in for a second. Getting ready to take a shift for our 24 hour prayer at our church. Much to pray for.
“May the Lord give us all true discernment to approve that which is good and reject that which is evil….” BD
That is one statement I can whole heartedly agree with
G’nite all!
Dread,
Thanks for the name calling.
You still haven’t answered my question.
Scott,
I don’t get your point.
Is Todd Bentley Jesus?
Jesus gets a pass.
Todd and the rest of ‘em don’t.
I found my experiences at charismatic churches and meetings to be very emotionally exhausting and depleting. I went there wanting above everything else to meet God but often what I experienced was having my hopes built up and my emotions stimulated. Once the meeting ended, I was faced with the reality that the preacher had held out the promise of being touched by God but I, at least, had not experienced that. And once the high wore off I was left tired and disappointed and unchanged.
Why must all these revivals and healing events and charismatic crusades look the same and feel the same? Is there any place that a sick or hurting or needy person can go to be touched by the Holy Spirit like these preachers promise the crusade-goers will be touched and yet not have the experience leave them empty and emotionally drained in a negative way?
Does God need to have a bunch of hype and intensified emotion before He will send the Holy Spirit?
I hear people say that even though these men are heretics and even though many people are hurt and go away unfulfilled, at least some people are healed. That’s something, at least.
But, it seems like calm, unemotionally hyped up christians don’t experience even that small rate of success. Why is that?
Jessica,
You just didn’t believe hard enough!
Please know I’m joking.
But it has a serious side. I’ve known people whose faith became shipwrecked because the spiritual finger gets pointed back at them when nothing happens.
I don’t think hype and being charged up has anything to do with God’s healing actions or “success rates” (what is this, a church or a business?)
I remember reading a book many years ago by a guy named Ken Blue, about healing. His approach was very unemotional. Emotionalism can lead to people being manipulated and taken advantage of.
You can find healing ministries and services in the most unemotional places, like Episcopal and Lutheran churches. They experience healings, too! I’ve seen them.
In the end, it boils down to: God is God. We are not allowed to “pierce the veil” and see what He is specifically up to. That’s what Luther called a “theology of glory.” Very addictive. But watch out where you end up.
Sam Storms, a Reformed Calvinist who is also charismatic, on divine healing
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/studies/divine-healing/
That’s everyone’s homework for this weekend
back in for a nightcap………..
no response on my 8:28? well, something to think about. that was mainly for dread; the beginning of our dialog, but it looks like he’s out for some time.
Get some better critiques?
Let’s start with the methods. Pushing and shoving, uh, I mean slaying in the Spirit. I always think it is interesting when someone doesn’t fall. Someone already mentioned it, but I have a hard time getting past all the weirdness. The jumping around, the yelling, the shaking almost to convulsions. The same phrase repeated over and over and over and over again and again and again. I don’t see this in the Bible, and yet we are talking methods.
Do we have to beg God? Do I have to go to the place where it is happening to “get it”? Can we not ask and receive? Do we have to go through such spiritual, emotional, mental gymnastics in order for God to move??
With all due respect, this isn’t much different than the clips I saw of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh years ago.
more to say, but it’s late.
Cent, Speaking of the Bhagwan, have you met any burnt out Bhagwanese in your neck of the woods?
Too bad he drove the Rolls instead of the Harleys. You could have picked up a few bargains and started a ministry of riding.
So you are flying down after all. Cool. Send me your itinerary. Are you coming early or staying late?
I am off to stand with Eric and his bride in their vows of rededication tomorrow.
Long day ahead, night.
Oops should be vows of renewal in their marriage.
It’s late, the mind is mush.
vic, in late Sunday, out Thursday afternoon. I’ll e-mail you
***Do we have to beg God? Do I have to go to the place where it is happening to “get it”? Can we not ask and receive? Do we have to go through such spiritual, emotional, mental gymnastics in order for God to move??***
That is exactly what I wonder too.
All I can say is God is good. I dont know how else to share my view.
Jessica:
“I was faced with the reality that the preacher had held out the promise of being touched by God but I, at least, had not experienced that. And once the high wore off I was left tired and disappointed and unchanged.”
Good comment!
“I hear people say that even though these men are heretics and even though many people are hurt and go away unfulfilled, at least some people are healed. That’s something, at least.”
No it’s not. If we feed, heal, and fix their physical problems but do not give them the water which stops a person’s thirst then we have left them no better than when they came.
Here’s my take on this:
In the A of G most of the men I know in pastoral positions really are sincere and honest about their seeking God and an experience with His Holy Spirit. Why then do they teach and do what they do then? I believe it is training and tradition. The heart of a Pentecostal or true charismatic (Greek word means gifted) Pastor is to see his/her people be touched by God in supernatural way, one with accompanying signs.
The rub is although the pastors have been asequately trained in the Bible and doctrine they will too often dump the training in favor of not “boxing God in” and allow all sorts of stuff to go on. Often times the term “don’t grieve the Spirit” is bantered about when someone says something against it.
The results are in a sincere effort to see, hear and touch the power of God false teachers arise to mesmerize their congregations. Pray for these pastors.
Drew though my experience is not within the AOG, I have made the aquaintance of a few AOG Pastors in North America.
Your assessment is on target. Many of the faults in CC; though they may be slightly different in nature arise from the same mindset of not wanting to limit God nor quench the Spirit.
The remedy of prayer in both case is the right one.
So, is the Assemblies of God an heretical denomination?
Drew,
I attended an AOG for a couple of years, a couple of decades ago. I really like and respect the people in the denom.
I imagine it is difficult for an AOG pastor these days, with all the wacky extreme charismatic stuff making all the noise. Plus, the AOG has always been faithful to Holy Scripture. I believe they passed a resolution condemning Branham and the Latter Day Rain heresy as unbiblical, back in the late 1940s.
One other comment you made that I thought was insightful: ‘the heart of a Pentecostal or true charismatic (Greek word means gifted) Pastor is to see his/her people be touched by God in supernatural way’
Perhaps this emphasis on “direct supernaturalism” is connected to the fact that there are no or few Pentecostal/charismatic hospitals in the U.S.? Didn’t Oral Roberts have one, and maybe still does? Are there others?
Perhaps this points to a big difference — you can find many Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist and Methodist hospitals and health care facilities. I guess the Pentecostal world has a different paradigm. Or maybe it’s not either or.
Is Calvary Chapel heretical because at it’s core is the belief that ALL the pneuma gifts of the Holy Spirit are still available today?
Speaking in unknown tongues for personal edif.
Tongues and interpretation of tongues in a public setting
Words of Knowledge
Words of prophecy
Physical healing through the laying on of hands
So on and son.
I have attended “Afterglow” services at Calvary Chapel Churches.
People were speaking in unknown tongues, interpreting tongues, giving words of knowledge, personal prophetic insights were being spoken over individuals, hands were being laid on individuals who desired to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Hands were laid on individuals and prayer was offered for divine healing, etc., etc., etc.
Is there a biblical precedent for this kind of activity in the church today?
I have Sam Storms’ book on spiritual gifts.
He is Reformed, and a continuationist. He has been in the Vineyard. So he has “street cred” in that he has good sound theology (from a Reformed perspective, not that Arminians aren’t sound or are heretical - they’re not), and he has served in churches that were continuationist and charismatic.
If we are going to discuss the gifts, perhaps that would be a good book to work thru on the blog. I could do that here, or at FTA (where I am also blogging through a history of the charismatic movement called The Charismatic Century), if everyone is interested.
Scott:
Heresy in the church has been used to accuse many of differing opinions and exegesis of scripture. The best definition I have found for being heretical is a groups which holds to another Jesus.
Examples:
Oneness Pentecostals
Mormons
Jehovah Witnesses
Oprah
Muslims
I hope you get the idea. Just because one church group says the Charismatic gifts are for today or speaking in tongues is THE sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit does not make them heretical.
Drew
Lutheran:
I used to say when my wife and I were traveling the easiest way to find the local Assembly of God was to look for the most run down or simple church. A of G people have never put much stock in architectural beauty and building hospitals. However, they did have one of the strongest mission minded movements in America at one time.
Drew
Drew, just popping in for a second.
What do you think? My 8:47….Is there a biblical precedent for this kind of activity in the church today?
I’d really like to hear from the all the CC Pastors on that too.
Anyone else who’d like to chime in as well.
Do you speak in unknown tongues?
Have you ever interpreted an unknown tongue in a public service?
Have you ever laid hands on the sick and they were supernaturally healed?
Have you ever given a prophecy in a public gathering?
Has the Lord ever given you a prophetic insight into someone’s life and you shared that with them?
Anyone ever had supernatural wisdom regarding a matter?
Here’s the “Statement of Faith” from Todd Bentley’s website:
Statement of Faith
We believe there is one living and true God who has revealed Himself in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, infinitely perfect and eternal in existence and equal in glory, majesty and power (Matt 28:19; Luke 3:21 -22)
We Believe in…
1. THE WORD OF GOD
We believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error, unified in their redemptive purpose, yielding a complete revelation of God’s will for the salvation of mankind. We hold the Bible to be trustworthy, the only supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. Scripture is our source of revelation of God, the knowledge of salvation, the origin of all things and of the hereafter-it is the final Court of Appeal on all points of doctrine, life and godliness. (2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12)
2. THE PERSON OF GOD
We believe there is one living and true God who has revealed Himself in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, infinitely perfect and eternal in existence and equal in glory, majesty and power (Matt 28:19; Luke 3:21 -22):
a) God the Father is the Creator of all things and the Author of eternal redemption. (Matt 6:9)
b) The Lord Jesus Christ was manifest in the flesh as the very Son of God-fully God and fully man, Creator of all things with the Father, and the appointed Judge of all men (John 1:14 ,18; Col 1:13-20; Acts 17:31; Heb 1:1-4).
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, died on the Cross for our sins, was buried, resurrected bodily on the third day according to the Scriptures and appeared to his disciples (1Cor 15:1-8). He ascended to the Father, where He continues His High-Priestly ministry. He will personally and physically return for a glorious Church and execute judgment upon the wicked. (1Thess 4:16 -18)
c) The Holy Spirit is The Comforter, the Promise of The Father (Acts 1:4), the Revealer of Christ and His work on the Cross, the Empowerer and the Distributor of gifts and graces upon the Church.
3. HUMANITY’s FALLEN NATURE AND NEED OF THE SAVIOUR
We believe the human race was originally created by God, in His image, to have dominion over His creation (Gen 1:27 ). However, with The Fall of humanity, sin entered through disobedience and rebellion. Humanity became separated from God and totally incapable of saving itself (Rom 5:12 ). All of mankind needs to turn from sin and trust personally in the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, to receive redemption. (Rom 3:23 )
4. SALVATION ONLY THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST
We believe the power of sin and death was broken when Jesus bore our sin at the Cross and rose again, providing the only way of salvation for the whole person: spirit, soul and body. (Heb 4:12 ; 1Thess 5:23 )
Mankind can only be saved by grace through repentance and faith in Christ’s perfect and sufficient work of the Cross. We receive remission of sins by Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice for us, redemption through faith in His shed blood and regeneration by the Holy Spirit’s power. (John 3:5)
5. EMPOWERMENT OF CHRIST’s PRESENCE
We believe the Lord’s Presence, Peace and Power are manifest in His Body in various ways, which are not, however, to be regarded as a means of salvation. We regard:
a) The Lord’s Supper as a means of fellowship of the spiritual body of Christ, and as a way of partaking of the spiritual benefits bequeathed to New Covenant believers.(1Cor 11:17-34)
b) Water baptism, by immersion, as the obedient response to the Lord’s command (Acts 2:38 ; Matt 28:19-20) and a visible representation of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
c) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as a valid and important experience for believers today. The Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost and is present for all believers today, often subsequent to the new birth and evidenced by speaking with other tongues (Acts 2:1-4;10:44-46; 19:1-6) and empowerment to witness (Acts 1:8). This baptism is also accompanied by grace gifts and fruit of the Spirit (Rom 5:5, 1 Cor 12:5-11; Gal 5:22 -23).
6. THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH
We believe the Church is the Body of Christ ( 1 Cor 12:12 -14; Eph 1:22 -23) , His Bride (Eph 5:25 ) and Temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 3:16 ), the expression of the present rule and reign of Christ’s Kingdom of God on earth. Christians are members of the universal, mystical, body by faith-they are a holy priesthood of believers. Believers need to live out their commitment to Christ in love, unity and community with other body members in the local church-this is the practical expression of Christian faith in action. Christ gifted His Church with unity and a five-fold ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for maturing, ordering, equipping, and releasing the whole body to do the works of service that reveal His glory. (Eph 4:11-16)
7. DIVINE HEALING
We believe divine healing is within Christ’s work of atonement (1 Pet 2:24 ) and great gift of salvation. Healing, communicated by God’s grace, gifts, laying on of hands, anointing with oil, and simple faith alone, minister healing for the whole person (emotional, mental, physical) and deliverance from oppression by the devil (Acts 10:38; Mk 16:17-18;
Jas 5:14-16). The gospel is not only in word, but in power and “these signs will follow those who believe.”
8. THE LAYING ON OF HANDS
We believe that the laying on of hands, as practiced in the New Testament, is an operation of the ministry of the Holy Spirit for:
- healing the sick
- baptism of the Holy Spirit
- receiving spiritual gifts
- dedicating children
- ordaining ministries
- and sending out ministries (Acts 13:3)
9. THE CHRIST-LIKE ABUNDANT LIFE
We believe all Christians are called into a life of separation from sinful practices and they should take every opportunity to promote righteousness and godliness (James 4:4; Romans 12:1-2, 13:1-10; 2Cor 6:14 -18; 1 John 2:15 -17). Holiness is the release of Christ within each and every believer, changing us into His image, from glory to glory. (2Cor 3:18 )
10. EVANGELISM
We believe the mandate and privilege of every Christian is to spread the Gospel to the lost world by making disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching them to obey everything He commands (Matt 28:18-20). This lifestyle of evangelism is accomplished through prayer, living out our faith, preaching the Word and sacrificial giving. (Acts 1:8; Luke 10:2; Matt 10:7-8; 1Cor 9:19 -23)
11. THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
We believe the Ascension and Exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ to the throne of the Father proclaims His present rule and reign over the universe. His Kingdom is revealed here on earth through His Body, the Church, resulting in a glorious Church and global harvest at the end of this age. He will be finally revealed through His personal, physical, and soon return and the events described in the following scriptures, including the resurrection of the dead (the just to everlasting life and unjust to eternal separation from God (Acts 1:11 ; 1Thess 4:16 -17; Titus 2:12 -14; 2Thess 1:7-10).
12. FURTHER REVELATION
We recognize that God is continually restoring truth and light to His Church. Therefore, we place no limit on further revelation; however, each must be substantiated according to the Scriptures.
Do you speak in unknown tongues?
Rarely, but it’s happened.
Have you ever interpreted an unknown tongue in a public service?
Nope, nor have I ever heard one that was anything but drivel.
Have you ever laid hands on the sick and they were supernaturally healed?
Define supernaturally.
I’ve prayed for many that God healed and many He didn’t
Have you ever given a prophecy in a public gathering?
Define prophecy.
Has the Lord ever given you a prophetic insight into someone’s life and you shared that with them?
Yes.
Anyone ever had supernatural wisdom regarding a matter?
Yes.
So where in that statement do we account for the use of a dead heretics angel?
Statements of faith…they can be used to prove anything — or nothing.
They say very little about what a church or ministry actually PRACTICES.
There’s orthodoxy — what you believe…
And then there’s orthopraxis — what you practice.
What ministry or church would be stupid enough to print anything heretical in their statement of faith?
Only the really dumb ones.
I find this whole thread frustrating.
you can make up any BS story you want these days and people will baptize it.
Michael, I’m not ignoring you, I’m just laboring away on my Real Estate Broker’s Exam preparation. My head is spinning
Talk at ya’ll later. I’m not trying to stir up trouble by the way.
Lute, what do you think? Is there any biblical precedent for “Afterglow meetings” in a church setting where people are speaking in tongues, prophecying, laying on of hands, etc.?
Scott,
The precedent is that that these happen when the church gathers by the sovereign will of God.
Shoving the Holy Ghost into another time slot is without precedent.
Maybe tonight Luthers angel will show up and beat the living crap out of Branhams angel.
What a crock.
Do you speak in unknown tongues? yes
Have you ever interpreted an unknown tongue in a public service? no
Have you ever laid hands on the sick and they were supernaturally healed? yes
Have you ever given a prophecy in a public gathering? does a small group count?
Has the Lord ever given you a prophetic insight into someone’s life and you shared that with them? yes
Anyone ever had supernatural wisdom regarding a matter? yes
Amazingly enough, none of these “manifestations” occurred during the greatest renewal ever….The Reformation.
There is no record of Calvin smiting someone on the forehead while naming the demons that occupied the victim.
Wonder why?
Hi Michael,
You should not point out the deficiencies of the Reformation for all to see. It was a pretty good movement but fewer people have died as a result of the present reformation. This current movement has spread much farther and faster without question because of these manifestations.
(Here is where I pray that Michael does not have any strategic nuclear devices)
Luther’s Angel Dread
BD,
To compare the Reformation as a movement to this nonsense and heresy is like comparing Medford T-Ball to the Red Sox.
The achievements of the Reformation was the spread of truth that lasted for centuries, not the spread of religious manure that impacts only those gullible enough to accept it.
I don’t think we have any idea how many have died because of the healing movement…
The only miracle that has come from this is that I now appreciate Hannagraff.
Michael,
Let’s lay aside humor and strife and talk this over for a few minutes. First, I will not diminish the importance of the Reformation but I can point out many many deficiencies… that are now realized and recognized all over the world.
As for this present movement. It certainly rises in influence to the level of the Reformation for this reason alone. Time magazine pointed out that this movement has crossed every denominational line and in fact impacts one out of every 12 people on earth in their personal walk.
Some of the costs of the reformation will follow.
I hope you will engage me a moment and not be provoked by my assertions.
BD,
Define what “movement” you’re talking about.
Time magazine is not where I draw my theology from.
Wait a minute…did you just say that this hokum was as influential as the Reformation????
You bet…and I’m as influential as Calvin.
I’ll have what you’re having…
hey…………. make mine a double!!! yeh…………..
Some things about the reformation that must be considered.
1. The Reformation more properly should be known as the second great schism. In fact it was not a reformation of THE CHURCH it was a fracturing and a destruction of the church’s unity. The cost of this action is that we now have endless fractures in the family of Christ and no real capacity to restore unity or to put any checks on heresy.
2. The Reformation was a political movement that gave birth to the state church, a miserable experiment that led to the death of Christianity in Europe in general. It was a complete failure in negotiating any kind of spiritual revival that could be sustained in those countries.
3. The Reformation has as a legacy that it is a movement of sola scriptura when in fact it was an apostolic movement that left us with a new set of church fathers whose writings became the new traditions of the church. Furthermore, the legacy of the reformation in America is the rise of atheism and secularism. The reformation has been abysmal in its attempts to institutionally perpetuate reform.
Where is that bomb shelter?
The movement that Dread said was referenced in Time magazine likely is the charismatic movement, not specifically faith healing.
The move that I am addressing is the rise of pentecostalism as a brand new stream of Christian theology and expression. You cannot tell the story of the 20th century church without the history of this Spirit theology. I did not ask you to get your theology from Time but when a secular magazine names Azusa Street Revival as one of the 100 most important events of the century it is worthy of note.
In one century it has covered more of the globe and influenced more people in their spirituality than the Reformation.
You may scorn it like GC Morgan as the ‘last spit of Satan.’ But the jury is still out without any question.
Dread,
That is so beneath your intellectual ability it beggars description.
1. We split with a heretical and wicked system and reclaimed the great truths of justification and the five solas.
The Reformers intended to reform the church, but the church would not.
2. There were political overtones to the Reformation as there were before it.
The death of Christianity in Europe is attributable to numerous factors too complex to enumerate here.
I’ve heard God has a remnant though…
3.That would be rejected by the Reformers themselves,who would never refer to themselves as apostles.
Only God brings reform and revival…to blame the spiritual ills of this country on the Reformation is simplistic and without proof.
BD,
I am speaking specifically of the effect of Pentecostalism worldwide.
This little branch that involves Todd Bentley is just today’s little wind. I would not compare this so-called healing revival to anything as yet.
Everyone is always talking about a second reformation… one actually exists … it is this last century… What was done politically by the Reformation was done by pure force of a Spirit empowered people movement in the last century.
The “last spit of Satan”… I love the sentiment, but I wouldn’t completely agree.
It has been the refuge of every kind of heretic and huckster and abysmal theology based on trading cash for experience.
Damn, thats a great quote…
The political emphasis on the Reformation is simply scornful and without substance.
The Reformation was a return to the Bible as the sole authority and putting that authority in the hands of all.
This movement you speak of has been an anti-Reformation, opposed to the pure Scripture and bent on putting the authority of the church into the hands of thieves and charlatans based on contrived experience.
Make mine a triple.
“It has been the refuge of every kind of heretic and huckster and abysmal theology based on trading cash for experience.”
Might that be because many people do not adequately train themselves theologically to know what is legitimate and not legit according to Scripture?
Or, because it is easy to fake healings and tongues and miracles (or misrepresent something as a healing), and it is possible to gather a large audience which doesn’t know the difference, and is ignorant of what is true and what isn’t?
Michael,
Luther and Calvin can deny their apostolic impact all they want but they cannot retrieve their names from the movement that uses them. They cannot retrieve their writings from the church creeds and catechisms that have canonized them into their near ’sainthood’ status.
The easiest of my assertions to prove is that those men are functionally apostolic in the way their movements follow them. Anyone in their movements that assert doctrines in corrective measure of those men are immediately considered new heretics.
They are near Pauline in the reverence they garner.
To deny that schism is the legacy of the Reformation is IMPOSSIBLE
BD,
That is nonsense.
I love the work of Calvin and Luther, but only as they reflect the truths of Scripture and help me see it more clearly.
I also like it when Luther cusses.
Furthermore,
The reformers acted popish in their resolve to stamp out the radical reformation… Had it not been for the power of the state and putting the radicals to the sword the anabaptists would have swept Europe and superceded the Reformation nearly before it got off the ground.
I’ve shared some of this here before…
Once when we were praying with a man downtown, God told me that he had a bullet in his head. I didn’t say anything, and my friend asked him if he had something wrong with his neck. He said, yes, he had been shot in ‘Nam, and had a bullet at the base of his skull near his spine, where they couldn’t operate. This allowed us to prayed for him more specifically. He wouldn’t have volunteered the information, because he probably thought it was just something he had to live with. Don’t know if he was healed; I never saw him again. But God must had a purpose.
Another man had fused bones, atrophied muscles and nerve damage in his foot. We prayed for him, and he said the feeling came back, and we saw him wiggle his toes. He said he hadn’t been able to do that in years.
These weren’t “healing services;” we usually pray with someone off to the side, quietly, with just 2-3 of us laying hands on the person.
There have been other healings: heart problems, leg and back pains, etc.
We saw a lady today, Bertha, that we hadn’t seen in some time. She said she’d been in the hospital (she has AIDS). She’s lost a lot of weight, and didn’t look too good. She reminded us that we had prayed for her two years ago for her cancer, and that it was now in remission. I don’t know how much longer she’ll be around, but two years ago I would have only given her a few weeks to live. Dusty prayed with her today. She took home a big bag of baby clothes home with her — she said her grandniece was having a baby shower and she didn’t know how she was going to afford any gifts or get to a store. But God provided for them!
Even when there’s no healing, the people always seem comforted by the fact that we’d spend time to pray with them, treat them with respect, go before God with them with a serious need.
Lord…
Catholicism was schismatic long before the Reformation, having almost as many branches as Protestantism.
Where do you think all those different orders of monks came from?
The notion of a united church is belied by church history.
Dread,
There are so many falsehoods in your assertions.
I don’t see any serious scholarship here, just a desire to score some cheap points.
Have you been to seminary? Have you studied the Reformation for yourself?
“Had it not been for the power of the state and putting the radicals to the sword the anabaptists would have swept Europe and superceded the Reformation nearly before it got off the ground.”
That’s an interesting theory, but thats all it is.
I may pop in from time to time with a friendly reminder…like this…
Remember that you are friends and that you love and respect each other.
Buster,
I believe that the gifts are active today.
I don’t believe some heretic making a spectacle of the sick is how the Holy Spirit works.
If it is, I’d rather not be a Christian.
Michael,
The Reformation only survived by the rise of the State Church. Shall I tell the story of the Swiss Brethren? They tried to continue reform based on the belief in scripture alone and were thwarted in Geneva because the city fathers were unwilling to reform the nature of citizenship.
For their crimes they were drowned and put to the sword. Their crime? They wanted to baptize according to the scripture by immersion. They wanted to baptize believers only.
When I was involved in the charismatic movement, I saw so many excesses.
People actually being promised that if they tithed to the Lord, they would get specific blessings back. I was a counter at one church, and someone actually wrote, “A ___” (name of car) on their check. That’s what they expected. These poor folks were being deluded.
I got so sick of the manipulation and hucksterism.
IMHO, it wasn’t much different from the superstition that was going on in Luther’s day, with the Roman Church. “When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul into heaven springs” was how Tetzel would manipulate the poor parishoners to get them to give to the Church.
Buster, that is an AWESOME testimony! Praise the Lord for that!
Back to Real Estate Contracts.
BD,
I have never denied that there were very bad things that were done during the Reformation.
However, it survived and thrives to this day because it is based on the unchanging Word of God.
Lutheran,
I do not believe that I have presented myself in this discussion as one trying to score cheap points.
If you want to dialogue with me….make your own assertions… and we will see who lacks scholarship to back up their statements. If you see me as antireformation then you simply misread. If you see me ridiculing the reformation then you also misread.
I see the reformation as an advance on the decline of medieval Catholicism but it is not a final resting point… I see the pentecostal movement as something that will ultimately be another advance for Christendom.. again it is not final.
I believe I can make coherent arguments for my positions in this discussion … leave off the jr. hi attack about have I ever read a book.
Usually I respect your additions to the conversation but when you act like an “edited” expect someone to say so.
Sorry, Dread, but your black-and-white
“Reformers Bad”
“Anabaptists Good”
is false.
Fact is, the Anabaptists were a bunch of sectarian nutcases who tried taking over the government by force. Read this account:
“The Reformation had made considerable progress in Münster by the year 1533, under the leadership of the preacher Bernhard Rottmann; and the bishop had found it necessary to grant tolerance to the growing party of its adherents. There was a fair prospect that the whole city would be won to the Protestant cause.
But at this juncture the Anabaptist distemper made its appearance. Rottmann himself caught the infection, and the city became a chosen resort for the extremists of the Anabaptist sect. Such in particular were John Mathys from Harlem and John Bockelson from Leyden, who played the rô1e of prophets or theocratic leaders. Adherents being rapidly won, the violent sectaries usurped the government, and in 1534 banished from the city all who were counted unbelievers
(((note from Lutheran: thank God they can’t do this today! Oh, wait, they can — in their own churches.)))
One excess led to another. Works of art perished before an indiscriminate iconoclasm. The principles of the wildest communism were adopted. Polygamy was declared lawful. John of Leyden, who finally added the dignity of king to that of prophet, took sixteen wives. Every thing was managed in the name of pretended revelations from heaven. A reign of terror prevailed, and it was instant death to disagree with the fanatical chief, or his principal agent, the sword-bearer Knipperdolling.”
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/sheldon/german_reformation.html
Warning — warning –
“Everything was managed in the name of pretended revelations from heaven.”
Michael,
I am not decrying the reformation… but I do see the pentecostal awakening as ultimately a movement as historically momentus as the reformation.
For that I am being lauded the resident imbecile of the blog….
Bowing Dread
Why, Mr. Dread!
You used a 7-letter word starting with “a……”
Have you been secretly hanging out with Lutherans?
Dread,
I would never say that you are an imbecile…you’re probably the most intelligent person here.
However…
I have a very hard time reconciling that with your support of a movement that since the early days has been promoted by heretics and hucksters.
Where are the scholars in this movement?
Where are the people who demand that false or spurious prophecies be renounced?
Why can’t any of these healings be documented?
Go back to the forties through today and the charismatic movement is a giant travesty of faked healing, fake angels and 900 foot Jesus.
What am I missing?
Lutheran,
I am sure you know that anabaptism was a multilayered movement with no central set of doctrines…
To generalize them as nutcases …. is indicative of what you are bringing forth…
Credit them with one thing…. THE ANABAPTISTS PREVAILED IN THEIR ASSERTION THAT THE STATE COULD NOT DICTATE FAITH TO THE CONSCIENCE. In that one thing…they prevailed against the whole reformation.
I will be glad to have this discussion later. But I must go for now.
Hey, I’ve never got to use that word!
I need to do some editing…
Lutheran,
I remember using an eight letter that Michael later edited for me
Interesting discussion, I enjoyed the sidelines for a change.
Here’s another happy note about the “innocent” Anabaptists — this one from an Orthodox site. Let’s tell the whole story, shall we?
“In 1520, there appeared in Saxsonia, a sect called “Anabaptists.” It gets its name from the custom of baptizing everyone who joins them. It started to practice the principal of “freedom,” not only of religion, but also freedom from society and politics.
They did not hesitate to use force and violence to obtain their understanding of “freedom.” Using those definitions, they started to overthrow the civic government, social relations and developed complete “equal rights” in the use of all property and even marital relations.
This sect represented a revolutionary social-political organization, that used religion as a “cover up”. The action of this sect and teaching of its ministers brought about armed revolts, killings and robberies. In the city of Munster (Germany), some baker proclaim himself as a king and renamed the city “New Jerusalem” and his kingdom as “New Zion.” He sent 28 “apostles” to conquer all people in his region.
In order to equate all in education he ordered to burn all libraries and destroy any work of art. The Christian churches were destroyed, clergy and more wealthy people were killed. This “kingdom” ended in 1535, by armed storming of the city and executions of all guilty ones.
Anabaptism was going into declivity and was partially rescued by a former Roman Catholic priest by the name of Menno Simons who became an Anabaptist. He introduced stricter discipline, still baptizing newcomers, avoided civil oath, military and civil services and evaded dealing with courts. Mennonites exist in Holland, Russia, England and the United States where they are distinguished by strict moral behavior, decency and hard work. Anabaptists like the Baptists reject infant baptism.
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/true2/mennonites.shtml
As I was mowing my 2 acre piece this morning, I was thinking about what many consider to be one of the last legitimate “Revivals” in our nation. Most notably, CC Folks connect their heritage with this movement.
Isn’t it interesting though that Chuck Smith’s faith was nurtured and shaped in the soil of the modern day Pentecostal movement? Namely, the Foursquare Denomination.
A movement which is inexorably linked to the likes of a woman named Aimee Simple McPherson, an enigma and as quirky an individual you could ever study. Yet…..God birthed a movement through her that has circled the globe multiple times over! The fruit of it, as far as the expansion of the Gospel is undeniable.
Lutheran,
You handled that with much grace.
Michael,
I will come forth with more later… we will talk about the scholarship. It is increasingly emerging. I do not mind the cry for accountability. It will be essential for the long life of the movement. I do not mind the drive for evidence in the healings but what will you accept…? Give me a baseline.,
Lutheran…
In truth I am a former Lutheran …. as for my use of seven letter words as you can tell I momentarily lapsed into my former status.
In truth I enjoy the dialogue but ad hominem attacks hit those old Lutheran nerves.
dusty,
don’t be sad. when iron is sharpening iron, sparks may fly and……………. an occasional cussword..
Dread,
No prob. I enjoy dialoging, too. Would be fun to have a beer together sometime.
We each have our touchy spots.
I agree that it was wrong for whoever did it to persecute the Swiss Brethren because of their views on infant baptism.
History is written by the victors.
Down with the state! I’ll go with the anabaptists!
I almost forgot what it was like when Sam and JJS and JJ and AB and others would “dialogue”
Well, this conversation is obviously way over my head intellectually. I’ll check in later when the simpleton’s are allowed back in.
BD,
I reject the whole healing line concept that was started by McPherson as from the pit of hell and it makes me mad and I hate it and I want to cuss but you used up all our cuss words for the week already.
Now then…Jesus healed people one on one with great care for them spiritually.
Neither Jesus nor the disciples or anyone that I know of from history ever did this exhibition crap that strips people of their dignity and exalts one man till the twentieth century.
All of the famous healers have turned out to be frauds with the exception of Kuhlman, who no one is certain of.
It’s wrong and you’ll not convince me otherwise.
Let’s get independent medical doctors to verify the healings…it’s not complicated.
Lutheran,
Your story is about one sect of a much broader movement. I can dig up stories of how the ana-baptists were pacifists, even to their own demise. You are probably well aware that the pacifist position of the Mennonites who are from the ana-baptist tradition.
can’tbelieveImightagreesomewhatwithdread cent
”I’ll go with the anabaptists!”
Yeah, me, too!
Let’s do communism! Sure, it hasn’t worked so far, but it just hasn’t been done right!
And, I could use a few more wives!
Wait…
Maybe not.
Is all that true of the Anabaptist? I thought that they believed that they must use any weapon against another?
Now then…
Scott made a good point.
Underneath all the nonsense, God has moved in a new way through the Holy Spirit, especially through McPherson and her spawn.
If you read McPherson and more particularly Van Cleave and Duffield,the Foursquare was increasingly committed to some measure of Biblical scholarship.
If only they had built on that…
Centy,
I am sympathetic to modern Anabaptism. I went to a Mennonite church for a brief time. Their influence continues today in American religion, and they have some great scholars — people like John Howard Yoder, for example. Sojourners magazine is basically from that perspective. So, I would argue, is McLaren. But that’s another topic.
But at the start, there was fanaticism — violence, murder, and mayhem. And there were nutcases. Why don’t we ever hear about these?
There are other accounts. I forgot to write about about the Anabaptist leader who ran naked through the streets in Holland. Maybe he was the first Christian streaker.
Lord knows Luther could be faulted for many things — and he has! Calvin, too — not sure about Zwingli. I wonder if there’s any other church leader in history who’s been attacked more than Luther.
Aimee’s surname was Semple. She definitely was not simple.
The 4sq denomination as a whole may not have built on that early scholarship, but I thank God for my very first pastor, a Foursquare Calvinist, who studied and taught the Word of God with integrity.
Here’s the closest thing you’ll find to an Anabaptist statement of beliefs, the “Schleitheim Confession” from 1527.
http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/S345.html
This would find no condemnation in the sea of American churches. They rejected violence, but were exterminated because their way of life threatened the power of the state.
Lutheran is giving the party line…
I commend them for practicing adult believers’ Baptism, dissolution of social barriers, defense of religious and human rights, destruction of idols and the refusal to contribute to the military state.
I agree with Dread: we’d be living in a different world if their sect(s) had grown.
Michael said, “Neither Jesus nor the disciples or anyone that I know of from history ever did this exhibition crap that strips people of their dignity and exalts one man till the twentieth century.”
——
He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.
He also stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”
~1 Samuel 19:23-42
Buster,
I don’t think he’s giving the party line as much as a bigger picture.
The interactions between the Reformers and the Anabaptists were not good, but there is a complexity to that whole period that I don’t have time to get into now.
“If only they had built on that…”
If the rest of the Pentecostals and charismatics don’t want to follow the Foursquare’s lead re: theology, then it ain’t gonna happen.
As long as TV preachers and revivalists and pastors with a fundamental distrust of theology and of the mind lead this movement, there won’t be much scholarship, if any.
CK,
There are many good pastors in the Foursquare…I have some very learned friends there.
Ezekiel 4:15 “Very well,” he said, “I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement.”
Dusty,
I’m confused…
Buster,
What party do you think I belong to? If you can tell me what party you think I belong to, then I can tell you whether what you’re asserting is true or not.
We will never understand the ways of God.
Don’t you think maybe He may ask of us things that to the outside world may seem odd, hokey or dumb.
Like: Ezekiel laying on his side for days and days, cooking his food over his or a cows excrement.
Like the Saul prophesying naked. (or was he already crazy then?)
Like me hugging and kissing the cheek of a woman who is crying even though she has HIV
Like Mary having a child outside of marriage
Like Amy Carmichael living in a grass hut all her life in India
Dusters,
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.”
(Hebrews 1:1-2 ESV)
The NT says that all things in the church are to be done “decently and in order”.
We are also commanded to judge all things by the Word of God, not by any other plumb-line.
Your hugging and kissing an HIV positive person is not prophetic, but is showing the love of Christ revealed through you.
We cannot understand His ways, but we can test ours.
Lutheran,
Your endorsement of the persecution of the Anabaptists allies you with the Party of Control that was dominant in many European nations, under various names, in that day. The same spirit persists to this day, and would still endorse the use of the state and physical force to suppress any potential threat to the social order, where such force can be applied under the cover of the rule of law.
Do you deny that your commitment to the Lutheran church is the result of the unsatisfactory control structures that you experienced in other churches?
Like Elisabeth Elliot living with the Waodani tribe after they killed her husband.
Dusty,
How about Tamar seducing Jacob into impregnating her while pretending to be a prostitute… and being called righteous … and being in the line of Jesus…
That may be my favorite Bible story..
Lutheran…
I beg your pardon for my outburst… you were most gracious in your response. My apologies sir…and yes I would like to share that beverage sometime.
Another 7-Letter Dread
I am not trying to make excuses for anyone who may or may not be doing what is right in the sight of God.
I just don’t want to close my eyes to things I don’t understand.
I want to stay open to whatever God would have for me to do…no mater how tiny or how big.
Thankfully…I’m off to church.
Don’t use up any more of my cuss word supply.
Dread,
Apology accepted.
You are a most gracious servant of the Most High.
We are all in this together, despite our differences!
We need each other.
God bless you and yours.
I did not mean to imply my action was prophetic. My examples where of things that others may think foolish.
Thanks Lutheran,
I hate to preach with a bad conscience…
But we gotta talk about this anabaptist thing… I am not lauding their virtues…just their ultimate impact.
Peace to all
Naked Dread
Dusty,
You’re superimposing the acts of God under another covenant onto this one and I don’t think it works.
We now have the completed Word of God that they didn’t have, as well as the fulfillment of what those OT saints were looking for.
God is able to do anything, but He tells us much about how we are to handle ourselves and how He usually works.
He usually works through people like you who open their hearts to Him and others one person at a time, quietly, and exalting no one but Him.
I have no need for the Bentleys of this world, I have you and your gifts are real and precious to us all.
Besides, the last thing I want to see is Bentley naked…
I really got to go…
“Besides, the last thing I want to see is Bentley naked.”
Michael,
Please don’t forget that some of us here have a visual learning style. No fair of you to toss that out and run.
I pray church is great tonight. Later.