CCOF What is it? at Phoenix Preacher

CCOF What is it?

Published by

theaxed

at March 24, 2006 in General.

Listen I think this question needs to be asked.

CCOF What is it?

Who is in charge?

What is its mandate?

Who can we apeal to?

Does anybody have the details?

We need to build a page regarding it so help us out tell us what you know.

129 Responses to “CCOF What is it?”

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1 penguin
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:16 am

Uhh, Kind of right there on the website if one would browse.

CALVARY CHAPEL OUTREACH FELLOWSHIPS
3232 W. MacArthur Blvd.
Santa Ana , CA 92704
Fax: (714) 540-4160
email: ccof2@calvarychapel.com

MISSION STATEMENT

The threefold mission of Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship (CCOF) is to serve Calvary Chapel fellowships; to maintain accountability; and to oversee the CCOF process of fellowship.

First, we want to serve the fellowships by providing materials that will define the Calvary Chapel philosophy as described in Calvary Chapel Distinctives. These materials will be gathered from sources such as previous pastors conferences, books, pamphlets, and sermons given by Pastor Chuck as he outlines and defines the call and ministry of a pastor.

The second major function of CCOF is how we would like to encourage accountability to God, to His Word, and to fellow pastors. Accountability is first to the pastor who ordained the applicant to minister. We will also look to our regional lead pastors located worldwide to maintain the relationship of personal accountability with the Calvary Chapel pastors located in their respective regions. We will be accountable to one another so as to avoid becoming an offense to our Lord, our fellowship of pastors, or to other Calvary Chapel fellowships.

The third major function of CCOF will deal with the pastor’s application for fellowship with other Calvary churches. The pastor’s personal record will be kept in both the CCOF office and the regional pastor’s office. To become a new CCOF church, or when there is a change of the senior pastor, the application process must be followed by every senior pastor to remain a recognized Calvary Chapel.

It is our earnest desire to serve and assist you and your church as we seek to fulfill the prayer: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
2 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:24 am

Calvary Chapel is a non-denominational demonination.

CCOF is the denominational HQ.
3 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:34 am

Freudian typo…

demonination should have been denomination…
4 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:37 am

I still want to know who the “regional pastors” will be that are coming to CABQ….Surprise…I never got a response to my email.
5 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:51 am

IIRC, Oden Fong was somehow connected with CCOF in the past. I always liked his music.

Oden led the fight against Set Free Ministries and Phil Aguilar.

This article has some light on CCOF under Oden.

http://www.calvarychapelbg.org/main_about_chistory.shtml
6 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:54 am

The regional pastors thing is a new twist, especially for CC pastors. This was just announced within the past month or so. Expect that some CC pastors will not like another CC pastor looking over their shoulder…
7 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:02 am

Hey Papias,
I’m just curious if it will be Skips buddies (aren’t they all anyway?) I just think it’s all so silly. Most of the pastors in this region have been on the board or were “helped” into thier position by Skip weren’t they? That’s how it seems to me. It just doesn’t seem like there is anyway that an evaluation like this would be credible.

Thanks!
8 MICHAEL RICKARD
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:03 am

DEAR MICHAEL, I DO HAVE THINGS I KNOW ABOUT DANNY BOND THAT YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW MIKE
9 MICHAEL RICKARD
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:05 am

PLEASE E-MAIL ME MIKE
10 penguin
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:06 am

Wife Suspected After Pastor Found Slain In Parsonage
Family Found Safe In Alabama

UPDATED: 4:48 am PST March 24, 2006

SELMER, Tenn. — Police said the daughter of a minister is a suspect in the death of her husband, a charismatic and popular pastor in Tennessee.

Police from Selmer, Tenn., headed for Orange Beach, Ala., Thursday to talk with Mary Winkler. Church members found her husband, Matthew, shot to death Wednesday night in a bedroom in the church parsonage in the Fourth Street Church of Christ.

Church members went looking for 31-year-old Matthew Winkler when he did not show up for an evening service . They used a key to enter the parsonage and found him dead.

A Tennessee Bureau of Investigation spokeswoman said there was no sign of forced entry at the parsonage.

It took authorities nearly 24 hours to locate his missing wife and their three young daughters in Alabama. Police in the town of Orange Beach, Ala., found them stopped on the side of the road in the van. An Amber Alert had been put out for Breanna, Mary Alice and Patricia.

All are said to be in good physical condition, and no one else was with them.

The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation said Mary Winkler has not been arrested, but is considered a suspect. Police said they have been questioning her.

A former mayor said, “They were a nice family.”

The family had been living in the small west Tennessee town about a year. The job was Winkler’s first full-time position after working as a youth minister at another church.

Before being found by police, Mary Winkler was last seen late Tuesday afternoon picking up the children from school. She worked as a substitute teacher at the elementary school.

Matthew Winkler’s grandfather had a 60-year career as an evangelist in four Southern states. His father is an adjunct professor at a religious-affiliated university. The Decatur Daily said Mary Winkler’s father was a pastor in Alabama.

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
11 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:06 am

How to start your own CC

http://www.churchadminservices.com/tableofcontents.htm

My recommendation is to not register with CCOF. Just use the CC name. That’s the best way to dilute it. If they go after you they have no grounds since they are not a denomination.
12 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:08 am

Another interesting site on CC.

http://www.getreligion.org/?p=1007
13 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:11 am

In the end all CCOF can really do is revoke Skip’s and/or CA’s Calvary Chapel affiliation.
14 enuff
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:13 am

they’ve had regional bishops for some time now
15 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:14 am

Stephanie wrote…
I’m just curious if it will be Skips buddies (aren’t they all anyway?)

Of course it will be his buddies who do the white-wash, oops, I mean “investigation”.

My suggestion was that they bring in a consultant on ministerial ethics from outside of CC. This problem can’t be solved by the inbred at CC. They are part of the problem and therefore can’t be a part of the solution.

I have also suggested that they adopt the standard at:

http://www.christianethicstoday.com/NonJournalArticles/Ministeral_Ethics-Being_a_Good_Minister.htm

But I’m not holding my breath on either suggestion. If they did both they would have instant credibility in my eyes, though.
16 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:15 am

Tundra - The word from the pulpit has always been, “They weren’t a CC, so we had them remove that from their name. Don’t fool yourself, they will go after you, just ask CC Twin Falls.

Stephanie, that is what some CC pastors fear, the sense of their own come-uppance(ala The Magnificent Ambersons). If you started a CC without the “blessing” of the guy who is now your regional pastor - woo baby! I had it said to me once, “I have a guy in my group that I want to give the chance to teach, and I want him to teach your group.” I told this guy to go fly a kite…
17 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:21 am

Thank you Tundra and Papias.
18 Tundra Man
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:32 am

papias - Hmmm… I think you may be right about that one. They could go after you. They do have the trademark as of 1999. I knew I should have filed for it back in 1996 and beat them to the punch. Last time I looked they did not have it. However, I think it could easily be challenged since the FIRST USE (1961) claim seems unlikely.

Typed Drawing
Word Mark CALVARY CHAPEL
Goods and Services IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: evangelistic and ministerial services. FIRST USE: 19611212. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19611212
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Design Search Code
Serial Number 75696114
Filing Date May 3, 1999
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition August 28, 2001
Registration Number 2508503
Registration Date November 20, 2001
Owner (REGISTRANT) CALVARY CHAPEL OF COSTA MESA RELIGIOUS NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3800 S. Fairview Avenue Santa Ana CALIFORNIA 92704
Attorney of Record L S VAN LANDINGHAM III
Prior Registrations 2340251
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

Ah, but they don’t have Calvary Chapel of the Tundra…

I will be changing my name in the future here to CCoT.
19 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:34 am

interestingly enough they abandoned the name as a TM in 1982 and reapplied later (see above).

Mark Image
Word Mark CALVARY CHAPEL
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 035. US 101. G & S: RELIGIOUS SERVICES (CHURCH). FIRST USE: 19690901. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19690901
Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
Design Search Code
Serial Number 73340454
Filing Date December 7, 1981
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Owner (APPLICANT) CALVARY CHAPEL OF COSTA MESA, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3800 FAIRVIEW SANTA ANA CALIFORNIA 92704
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date December 31, 1982
20 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:35 am

Tundra - I think you will have the corner on that market! Not many CC guys “feel led” to plant a church on the Tundra, when Maui needs more CCs!

Why is it that all the good surf spots have CCs? Hmm…
21 Nobody's Fool
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:36 am

Ye Old Man of the Tundra….

You speak the truth as far as I am concerned. This mess is unsolvable so long as Skip’s pals and acquaintances have anything to do with it.

In my opinion, the only thing that can make Skip ‘fess up’ is a loud and continuous scrutiny by the congregation and the media. Yeah, I know, that’s not the biblical response.
22 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:37 am

Tundra - Can anyone apply for a dead trademark?
23 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:37 am

Funny Tund..I mean CCoT.
24 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:38 am

What they have is the service mark “trademarked”. The fact that there is a CCFL trademark shows that others can come up with trademarks. Mine is Calvary Chapel of the Tundra.
25 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:39 am

Oh,. any my symbol is the winking face
27 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:40 am

You were all present for the unveiling of the

New Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
28 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:40 am

just to make sure no one else steals that name
29 reformed Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:41 am

Better yet, I’m going to be the reformed Calvary Chapel of the Tundra

I have to use the lower case r in reformed since I am not Reformed.
30 reformed Calvary Chapel of the Tundra
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:43 am

It’s a TM not a (c).
31 reformed Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:44 am

And I did gorget it, thanks for reminding me
signed,
reformed Calvary Chapel of the Tundra - TM
32 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:44 am

Job 15:12 Why does your heart carry you away, And what do your eyes wink at,

Ps 35:19 Let them not rejoice over me who are wrongfully my enemies; Nor let them wink with the eye who hate me without a cause.

And the wink is biblical too!
33 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:52 am

As the Perpetual Chairman presiding in the place of Moses plus being the Founding and Ruling Senior Pastor of Calvary Chapel of the Tundra I reserve the right to wink at pretty ladies. Or to use the word “girls” in describing them as my leader Chuck Smith does.

(By the way, I’m losing the reformed from my name since it’s just too long with it, but it will be there on the official documents.)

Just like there are Latter Day Saints and Reformed Latter Day Saints.
34 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:53 am

Who wants to be on my board? I’ve got a couple of cars that need washing. I was thinking about a national board but they can’t pick up my dry cleaning and get the Bentley washed for me.
35 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:00 am

Tundra - LDS and RLDS don’t get along to well, strangely enough. Mormons look upon the RLDS as “weird”. Got a bunch of them here…

Wink at the pretty ladies! Pastor Tundra!

I have to ask permission to be on another board.
36 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:04 am

My bad….if you do it this way it DOES looks more official.

Calvary Chapel of the Tundra™
or
CCoT™

Do you allow women/ladies/girls on your board?
37 Stephanie
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:08 am

I still think we should make a CCoD™…
Calvary Chapel of the Disfellowshipped™
38 smoldering wick
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:09 am

Regional pastors have been around for at least a couple of years and disputes that arise in remote locations are usually deferred to the pastor in that region. Submission to their direction is voluntary. None of the individual CC’s are obligated to abide by the regional authority.
39 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:10 am

papias,
(starting satire)
I’ve got a tough decision facing me. I can only have you on my board if you are not in the same city as my church. I really don’t want you in my business so picking someone from out of town helps that a lot.

But I also want some local board members so that I can feel my ego stroked from locals. Hard to decide what is the best balance.

I am a bit concerned that you are a thinker and we don’t want thinkers on the board. We want feelers.

All I know for sure is that I don’t want you if there’s the slightest chance of a palace coup. Promise you won’t overthrow me?

And I’ve learned from Chuck that the proper word is “girls” not ladies. Remember how Chuck Smith said that Mike Kestler “had a problem with the girls”?
(ending satire)
40 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:13 am

Stephanie asked…
Do you allow women/ladies/girls on your board?

(satire beginning)
Are they cute? And as Chuck showed us we are to call them “girls”.
(Satire ending)

Seriously that may be the reason that there are no published board minutes at CA. They have no women to be Secretary and we all know how bad men are at that sort of thing.
41 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:16 am

Smoldering wick - Any accountability that is voluntary is not accountability. If a pastor is not required to abide by the reional pastors decision, then what is the point to it all?
42 nomansapologist
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:16 am

Calvary Chapel of the Tundra

Starting satire = < > .

Ending satire = < / >

Thank you for your corporation….

I mean cooperation

~Nomans
43 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:28 am

Tundra- START SATIRE (or is it SATRE?)

I am not in the state of Minnesota, so I am not local. Nor am I one of those weird North Dakota folks(That’s what Minn’s call them! not my opinion!)

Balance for board members - You only (need) 1 local person. Preferably someone that is rich and influential, but also a yes man. National yes men for the rest of the board.

I promise I won’t overthrow you :^) . I might spiritualize it though, and say that “The Lord has called pastor Tundra to the shores of Maui, there’s lots of apostasy there that needs to be dealt with, especially among the surfing community. Since they don’t take to outsiders quickly, Tundra will have to live in Maui for several years(church paid for), and spend his days smoozing the locals. He will need great funds to gift the locals with new surfboards…”

End satire here…
44 KC
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:40 am

Hey All,
I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time. Even those who don’t like this site might get a chuckle or two.
45 TK
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:02 am

I noticed an earlier comment that there’s info about Danny Bond? What happened to him? I used to listened to him on the radio when i lived in southern califorina in the late 90’s and attended a calvary chapel in orange county.
46 smoldering wick
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:18 am

Papias, If all Calvary pastors had a heart for the Lord or a true burning bush experience like Moses there would not be a point or a need for any of it. If we look to Jesus we don’t see any of these secret arrangements and closed door meetings that seem to be prevalent in CC. By walking in the light and our actions open to saved and unsaved people we are a witness and encouragement to all. Lord, help me to walk in the light and truth. Protect me from the darkness that leads to destruction. It seems that the Moses model opens the door for the David and Bathsheeba model.
47 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:39 am

THANKS GUYS AND GALS!!! I NEEDED A GOOD LAUGH OUT LOUD MOMENT. I HAVE GREAT APPRECIATION FOR YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR - OR WERE YOU SERIOUS? LOL
48 H. Castro
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:41 am

I did. You make my day smile from all the sadness. THANKS
49 CC of the T attendee aka 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:50 am

Did you find out anything else about Roger Wing, other than what I stated last night on the Dave Rowe topic?

Are you accepting membership?
What time are your services?
What version of the Bible do you preach from?
Do you do your own bookkeeping?
50 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:56 am

1saved1 - What do you want, Roger Wing’s address and phone number in HB?
51 Stan
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:25 am

Re: Roger Wing.

I don’t know him personally, but I do know that he played a large part in 4 CC missionary pastors in Hungary being “defrocked” in early 2000 based on rumors that they were “hyper Calvinist”. Letters implying this were sent from pastor Al James of Calvary Chapel Prescott to Roger Wing. Neither Al James nor Roger Wing ever contacted these 4 church planters or bothered to speak with them before having their support cut and sending them home, putting their churches through much pain and confusion. It’s too bad these man aren’t as quick to throw out adulterers, megalomaniacs, and embezzlers as they are people with differing theological views.
52 Stan
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:28 am

Actually, I take that back. They’re pretty quick to throw out embezzlers…
53 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:29 am

Stan - So who did the “dirty work”, was that Rod Thompson?
54 Stan
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:34 am

Ha! Nobody would have left if Rod Thompson did it. Brian Brodersen delivered the news, but in all fairness to Brian, it was not what he wanted. He had a good relationship with the pastors and understood their theological positions better than anyone as the pastors had been upfront with Brian about their differing view for 3 to 4 years.
55 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:41 am

Papias…

I in NO WAY want Roger Wing’s address, etc. I know where to find him. My husband knows him, because Roger is the one who fired him last week.
I was looking more into insight. He was very arrogant and gave no Scriptural references to my husband or to the body of believers at CCLB. Roger Wing was just there with a job to do, and it wasn’t comforting God’s people.
56 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:47 am

It has been a few years since I spoke with Roger, but that is what he is like: very by the numbers, not really a “people” person. It sounds like he came to do a job and he did it. Roger is not the type of guy that you get real close to, he has his business and does it very efficiently - almost robotic.
For what it is worth, Roger is not a really good public speaker, so you didn’t miss much!
57 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:53 am

Papias,

Except this is a church we are dealing with, not a business. And as far as efficiently… my husband was the whistleblower and he was the one fired. The embezzling pastor is still in the pulpit. How efficient is that?
58 Hope
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:53 am

Hee Hee! CCOT - I’ll join! I wish I’d been online for that!
59 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 11:57 am

CC of the T attendee aka 1saved1 March 24th, 2006 10:50 am
Did you find out anything else about Roger Wing, other than what I stated last night on the Dave Rowe topic?

Some people posted some other stuff but what you posted was enough. I mostly just wanted to figure out if Roger was a family member like the rest of the Costa Meca mafia.

Are you accepting membership?

We are a reformed CC, so sure we can have internet membership even. You are a member just for asking.

What time are your services?

Well I like to sleep in on Sundays, so not too early.

What version of the Bible do you preach from?

Not sure there. I want to follow Chuck Smith but I don’t know if I will follow the Chuck Smith of the tapes 575 anf 576 and was KJV Only or the Chuck Smith who endorses the NKJV.

Do you do your own bookkeeping?

I’ve already signed up my wife as treasurer. That way we can keep the money in the family. Chuck is truely our inspiration. My kids and grandkids will all be board members of course. Automatically when they turn 18.
60 Distraught
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:03 pm

Tudndra,

I guess that would make me one of the CCOT Board Members, since everyone thinks we are the same person??? hahaha
61 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:03 pm

Thanks for the information. Done in the TRUE CC example!!!
62 Distraught
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:05 pm

oops, sorry for the mispelling of your name…I was typing too fast.
63 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:05 pm

Distraught - that’s the case. You are the doppleganger chairman. Like the move Dave. When the president was taken ill they brough in the doppleganger to take over his job. My fear is that you will do a better job as husband/father/pastor/Moses/Chairman/etc…
64 papias
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:06 pm

1saved1 - I am not defending Roger by any means, just trying to help you understand, from my (limited) perspective, what I know. Having followed your sistuation, it sounds like your husband was the fall guy.

You are right, church is church and business is business.
Roger has no familial relantionship to Chuck (that I know of), he is just very loyal to Chuck.
65 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:06 pm

Sure, since you are the same person, we know that you were just trying to throw us off with the misspelling. LOL LOL LOL
66 1saved1
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:08 pm

Papias,

I know you weren’t defending Roger Wing. However, I do wonder if Chuck really knows what Roger Wing does and how he is mishandling situations.
67 JMN
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:26 pm

Calvary Chapal of The Tundra-TM

Please give me your perspective, thoughs and feelings on the KJV as opposed to the NKJV. Thanks, JMN
68 Observation
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:27 pm

Tundra- You sure are book smart. Too bad that your prayer life
is so malnourished. It shows in your posts (No post in particular).
Just an observation. May God bless you anyway.
69 Maria
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:35 pm

Now I know what this blog reminds me of….. like sharks that smell blood in the water, it has turned into a gleeful feeding frenzy. You smell blood, and you all rush in for the kill. Please…… listen to yourselves! Since when is it scriptual to ridicule and mock anyone? Be careful…. your bitterness is showing. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I realize some of you have been hurt and hurt badly and for that I am truely sorry, but don’t feed the hurt with bitterness. It is sooooo painful to see where that bitterness leads.
70 q
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:39 pm

/
71 Under Grace
Mar 24th, 2006 at 12:41 pm

Goes to show you, book smart sometimes means nothing.
72 JMN
Mar 24th, 2006 at 1:03 pm

Maria

I admit when I first stumbled across this blog I was in a feeding frenzy to feed my bitterness. For that I have asked for forgiveness, and have deeply repented. I was so confused and hurt to find out my senior pastor had unexpectedly resigned. I was not just hurt but too stunned for words when I found out why. With the exception of some close friends who attend the same CC I do, I had no one to talk to that was willing to give me assurance by answering all of my questions. When you go to CABQ, it’s quiet. NO one, and I mean no one talks about it. At first it was hard to sort out trouble makers, the ones who are on this blog because they think it is funny to watch others suffer, the sarcastic ones who love rubbing salt in your wound and the ones who just plain have nothing better to do (sad to say). However, the fellowship I have received on this blog has been a blessing. I am receiving God’s word from christians who care. I am praying with people all over this country (heck, probably the world). Since I started on this blog I have gone from being a frantic, feel sorry for myself whiner, to someone who sees that the Lord has plans for me. Do you know how many people go to church and sit and gossip? Point at some who are dressed funny, or talk funny? At least on this sight, we can speak freely, for the whole world to see. Not behind someones back. I am not saying that the church I attend has a bad body. But as with this blog, there are a few bad apples. If I have made a mistake, or spoken harshly, at least the people on this blog point it out to me, give me scripture to show why I perhaps was wrong and TALK about it. Oh, and people give true heart-felt apologies on this blog. I thank God for this blog. It is helping to heal my broken heart. Whether I go back to my CC or another church for fellowship, at least I will not go back as blind as I was. My eyes will be wide open, I had a really strange thing happen to me last week. Or close to a week ago while on this blog. I was ‘talking’ out some of my hurts with two people on this blog with very good reputation. Out of nowhere, a calm like I have never felt before literally washed over me. I could feel GOD’s presence. I knew that I would be okay. I would get through this and not carry battle scars like I have from other ancient church abuse. My heart beats calmly, not frantically like it was whenever I think of my CC’s problems. Everyday I am fed scripture and if I choose, I get to discuss it’s meaning. It keeps me focused on God. I am walking with the Lord. I do not feel it is a sin to want to know the truth, ask questions and let those who have hurt so many of us know what ‘their sin’ has done. The Lord tells us we have to love our brothers and sisters, but I do not have to like them. Thank you for your insight on this blog and it’s forum. Just know that it has helped a lot of people like me start to heal and continue to grow in our faith in Jesus. Respectfully, your christian sister, JMN
73 Maria
Mar 24th, 2006 at 1:07 pm

JMN,
I was not accusing everyone here if ridicule, but you have to admit, it gets pretty nasty and I can’t see how that is edifying to anyone. I am glad it has helped you to heal, but how many has it hurt with all the spectulation going on without having the whole story?
74 JMN
Mar 24th, 2006 at 1:32 pm

Maria

I definitely get the point you are making. Is this any worse than the hundreds, maybe thousands of people that the CC’s have hurt within their very own walls because of all the speculation going on without having the whole story? All that propoganda? At least on this blog, there is help and there is healing. A pastor that actually takes the time to answer each e-mail, and to moniter what is being said. To correct if someone is out of line. To keep feeding God’s word every single day. With all the garbage that you can find on the internet, at least there are sites like this where God’s children are discipling those still lost and in need. I see no one man or woman taking personal credit for those they have helped on this site. If anything, the ones on this blog that give much of their own time to minister to those in need give all the glory to God. And, yes, you are right, as with any church with four walls, this blog that ministers those in need, has it’s own share of problems. I am not as eloquent in speech as some, I lack a great deal of knowledge about the bible as some, but here, while I am waiting for God to tell me where to go next I am being ministered. I am being fed and cared for. Very humbly and respectfully submitted, your sister in Christ, JMN
75 Maria
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:24 pm

JMN,
Because it is happening somewhere else doesn’t justify it here. That’s like when your child is caught stealing, he excuses his behavior saying everyone is doing it. It is still sin and we are all responsible before God for what comes from our mouths. If our words cause a little one to stumble, we and we alone are responsible for it and scripture says it would be better if a millstone were tied to our neck etc. How much more would this blog glorify Christ if those that contribute so often would first check the attitude of their heart and be sure their words edify and heal, not cause more bitterness. Sarcasm, ridicule, insinuations, do not heal……I myself was hurt terribly in a denominational church when I was growing up. It doesn’t matter which church, and it was not a Calvary by the way. I do not choose, to live my life embittered by what was done to me or to smear that denomination. There is much good being done in that church today. Yes, there are many in every church, Calvaries included, that are hurting the sheep. That is the nature of the human condition, we are all sinful. Just because there is a mouse in the cookie jar, it doesn’t make him a cookie. I am not saying that we should allow it to continue. I just think there is a better way than to spend your day making snide, cutting remarks and gossiping. Gossip is gossip, even if it is the truth.
76 Nobody's Fool
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:33 pm

“Gossip is gossip, even if it is the truth”? There’s some interesting logic there.

How about, the truth is still the truth, even if being gossiped about.
77 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:33 pm

Maria,

I hate to state the obvious but nobody is forcing anyone to read this BLOG. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to read it. If you want to interact with the people here then feel free.

For my part, I will use satire to make my points. Including my choice of name “Calvary Chapel of the Tundra”. It is a humorous way of making a point.

It’s been a few hours and I have not yet been contacted by the CCOF telling me to drop the name. And my email address is:

MrTundraMan@aim.com
78 Maria
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:43 pm

ok truth is truth, but that doesn’t mean we have the right to gossip about it. I know plenty of things about people that are true, but if I go and talk about those truths, it is gossip. Period. Tundra, You sort of sound like what you have been blasting Calvaries for. If you don’t like it leave. Sin is sin Sir. Sarcasm cuts people and hurts and you are respopnsible before God if your satire causes a weaker brother to stumble and I fear it has……
79 Sojourner
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:52 pm

Hi again, JMN,
You are a tenderhearted soul - thank the Lord for people like you. It is good to mix in some sweetness to the blog.

I also am thankful for the ability to have a voice - to encourage, to question, to truly fellowship.

Here is a verse! “…that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Now this I say lest anyone should decieve you with persuasive words.”

As a body of believers, we are knit together. It is no wonder that such pain is caused when the body is torn apart. If we were all individuals in the church, we could just leave and not be torn apart, but we are knit together.
80 Sojourner
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:53 pm

Sorry! The verse was from Colossians 2:2-4
81 enuff
Mar 24th, 2006 at 2:59 pm

Maria said:
“Sarcasm, ridicule, insinuations, do not heal……”

Then that cuts out 95% of Jesus’ conversations with the Pharisees and scribes.
82 WOW
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:06 pm

Maria
do you attend CCABQ?

Have you not heard any parodies from the pulpit?
In the past people laughed at them.
However, this past month the ridicule from the pulpit has been HARMFUL. and not using the Word correctly.

I too have found this blog site a place that I feel safe talking and asking questions questions that I wish CCABQ would have answered.

I feel like I have been raped and no one wants to talk about it. If I talk about it the rapist is glamorized and I am at fault.
83 Worship Life 2006
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:15 pm

GOD LOVES YOU SO MUCH!!!!

How Is Your Worship Life?

Come… Hang out… Be encouraged

This year’s conference we have Alistair Begg, Mark Foreman, Don Williams and many others. Worship Leaders will include Brenton Brown, Brett Williams, Phil Wickham, Evan Wickham. Over 40 workshops. Check it out.
worshipconference.org
worshipsong.com
84 JMN
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:38 pm

SOJOURNER, Hello again to you too. Thank you for your kind words. Col 2:2-4. I wrote that one down. What a beautiful verse. Persuavive words. I can’t help but wonder if that is what some have been feeding us at CABQ. Do you think that I am sinning by being on this blog? Wouldn’t God want the truth of his word to be revealed to me? I admit I do find myself going right for my computer to go to this site as soon as I get home. I do feel excited knowing that I have people who answer my questions by giving me scriptures to look for. I do feel at times ecstatic when those in question have been shown to be wrong. Maybe that last part is a sin. But I also love those in question. I pray for them. I want to know they are once again walking with God.

WOW
Wow to your comment! You share my feelings almost identically. Why is it, those who condemn this blog can’t or won’t see all the good it does? Those in pain googling for a sight to go to are looking for help. So if some of us find that here, why is it so bad?

To those of you who condemn this site, do not be so quick to judge. Perhaps, there is someone on this blog you can help. Your life’s experiences and knowledge of God might be just what they need right now. JMN
85 Under Grace
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:45 pm

Doug,

You are right in saying that nobody forces us to read this blog. But we are forced to see the stupid name you have given yourself.
86 JJS
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:50 pm

Under Grace,

That was beneath you,don’t you think?

JJS
87 Under Grace
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:54 pm

Maybe, but the name is annoying and mocking and prideful. It’s offensive to many here.
88 Under Grace
Mar 24th, 2006 at 3:57 pm

JJS,

I am still working on my response to our earlier conversation.

But….the kids………..dogs
89 nomansapologist
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:00 pm

Interesting.
This is a test of love.
Tundra, you have the right to use any handle you please.

But which is weightier.
Your rights to satire, or not stumbling some here?

Curiously submitted
~Nomans
90 Sojourner
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:01 pm

Love would require us to “Rejoice with those who rejoice and week with those who weep.” - Romans 12:15

Regarding the Calvary Woes:
In Acts 5: 38-39, Gamaliel (a teacher of the law) said, “And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it - lest you even be found to fight against God.”

Calvary has some cancers that must be excised or the body will eventually die, but until God pulls the plug, God still uses some of the Calvarys, so we have to be careful to not fight against God either. As the cancers grow and spread, the body gets weaker and sicker. I think this site is the mouthpiece that is screaming for a surgeon!

Regarding financial cancers in the body - Couldn’t Calvary require each church to hire an outside auditor to prepare a financial statement for posting on the Costa Mesa website for all to see? As we look for a church on the Calvary website, we could also see a financial statement for that church to see salaries, and even board members before we ever darken their doors? Spiritually speaking, it is much easier for them to hide problems and play games.
91 Sojourner
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:02 pm

Typo! Weep with those who weep!
92 Nobody's Fool
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:06 pm

I thought the main topic here was supposed to be Skip’s mismanagement of CCABQ, and his possible misppropriations of CCABQ funds.
93 nomansapologist
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:08 pm

NF
The main topic where, under this thread or on the entire site?
~Nomans
94 Big Guy
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:21 pm

This is in reference to Tundra Man’s comment about Oden Fong’s involvement in CCOF. When you click on the link, you get the history of Calvary Chapel of Bowling Green (Ky.) and this nugget is in the last paragraph:

“Approximately one year later after a nationwide search, Ryan Smith was installed as Pastor and currently serves full-time in this capacity. “
95 JMN
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:26 pm

PENGUIN

jUST WHAT EXACTLY WAS YOUR POINT ON THE NEWSPAPER ARTICLE YOU OSTED ON THIS THREAD AT 7:08 A.M. THIS MORNING? jmn
96 Distraught
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:48 pm

Observation,

How could you possibly make that assumption from anyone’s post! That is just WRONG & CRUEL, I might add. Please pray yourself before you post!
97 Under Grace
Mar 24th, 2006 at 4:49 pm

Normans,

Believe me when I say he is NOT causing me to stumble, others maybe.

I just think the name is immature and it’s not funny anymore.

Yes, we can joke and have fun, but not at the expense of those brothers and sisters in Christ that are hurting at CC’s.

It is just amazing to me how many played right along with Doug. We are to be an example to those who come here and it hurts the cause im my opinion.

I am by far not legalistic, we have freedom in Christ. But along with that freedom comes responsibility, we are not to abuse that freedom.
98 nomans
Mar 24th, 2006 at 5:04 pm

U.G.
I’m getting the feeling that you misunderstood the temper of my earlier comment.
~Nomans
99 Nobody's Fool
Mar 24th, 2006 at 5:22 pm

I’m back…..I just meant the main topic of the Heitzig CCABQ streams as created by Michael.

Now posters are arguing among themselves about who can use what name, who can use or not use satire…that sort of thing…,
100 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 5:35 pm

U.G. is feigning offense when there is no reason for any.
101 Fixing My Eyes
Mar 24th, 2006 at 5:41 pm

Gentleman….please–let’s get back to decency
102 Under Grace
Mar 24th, 2006 at 6:56 pm

Doug,

….feigning offense?

get a life…………..
103 C
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:19 pm

Tundra=Distraught without a doubt. You’re more transparent than you think, Doug. ……But God bless you anyway.
104 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:34 pm

Tundra=Distraught=Dave=Doug.

This has been great fun to watch. Thanks.

I’ve only got a couple of more days left to play.

Spring plantin’s a comin’ and the tractor just won’t run. Mom she’s doin’ laundry, too cold to be hangin’ it on the line…
105 WOW
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:40 pm

there was an interesting comment posted at Bringbackpete.com under the comments section
a dtr of a ccabq pastor she talked similiar to sojourner

she also mention about the freedom we have in the Lord but not in the CC

so true
106 Blessed
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:43 pm

WOW,

She posted the same message on this sight also. Forget which topic it was under, but she signed with what appears to be her real name.
107 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:46 pm

Distraught March 24th, 2006 4:48 pm wrote…
How could you possibly make that assumption from anyone’s post! That is just WRONG & CRUEL, I might add. Please pray yourself before you post!

Why are they confusing me with Distraught? That’s not my writing style at all. I automatically assume that nobody prays before posting and it doesn’t bother me at all that they don’t. In fact, I prefer it if they say what they really believe. It makes the dialog better.
108 Sojourner
Mar 24th, 2006 at 7:55 pm

Hi JMN,
I think the Lord is far more compassionate than people and I don’t think you are sinning by being on this blog. I think there is a real opportunity for ministry here, and you will minister to us as we minister to you! If somone is rabid or nasty, maybe they need ministry too, or we can just disregard them! You have seemed very kind.

As far as walking beyond this point - be on guard and test doctrine according to the Word. The Lord will teach you as you read His Word. It’s good to test fruit too. Our old pastor had a very nice toothy smile and loved old ladies and children, but his fruit was rotten. His rotten fruit was: bouncing checks to people in the congregation several times,
being paid by a janitorial company ($500) per month to clean the church sanctuary (but he let church women do it for free while he never told them that he was being paid to do it!), he always had a need and he had a wealthy man buy computer equipment for him (fleecing people). There was a lot more dirt that surfaced - worse than what I listed.

My biggest conflict was truly liking him, yet seeing the bad fruit as it surfaced. I hated it. I didn’t want to think evil of him, but what he was doing was evil and deceptive. I was angry because I felt deceived and like a fool for being so trusting. I defended him for a long time. Then I was embarrassed. His fruit was bad and Jesus warned us about wolves and that we must test their fruit. Even during the deception, I had conflicting gut feelings - like something was wrong. I felt guilty about that instead of listening. When it got too bad, I had to leave. Then the peace returned inside of me, but on the outside, I was furious. I had a flesh frenzy for a long time. I wanted to string him up because he made me personally feel stupid for trusting him.

If I were you, I would really be tempted to go to a different church (even a Calvary if it is good). I would imagine that there will be a lot of turmoil at Albuquerque Calvary for awhile, if not forever! Who knows? Calvarys have their flaws, but then so do other denominations. I was telling a friend about some of this stuff and she told me, “Awe, twenty years ago I went to a Lutheran church and the pastor was wanting an affair with me.” So sin is everywhere. Go where you hear the Bible.

Thanks for your nice behavior on this site. It’s a pleasure.
109 c
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:24 pm

Tundra wrote…..”Why are they confusing me with Distraught? That’s not my writing style at all….”

Ahh that’s exactly it! Your Distraught character is indeed quite the opposite of your main character, Naive to a fault….But may God bless you anyway,
110 Prayerfullly Considering
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:40 pm

WOW,
The pastor’s daughter’s post is under heatherly in the “time out’”
thread. She signes her name at the bottom of the post.
111 Prayerfullly Considering
Mar 24th, 2006 at 8:44 pm

I meant to say she signed her name at the bottom of her post.
112 Sojourner
Mar 24th, 2006 at 10:18 pm

Thanks Prayerfully Considering!
You are so observant! I am getting lazy about really reading and remembering!!! The pastor’s daughter did a great job in exposing the garbage. It must be a really large stumbling block for children of those who are participating in all the lies and hypocrisy.
113 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 25th, 2006 at 4:39 am

It’s tough to be a PK in the best of situations let alone the worst of situations.
114 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 25th, 2006 at 4:41 am

Tundra wrote…..
”Why are they confusing me with Distraught? That’s not my writing style at all….”
c wrote…
Ahh that’s exactly it! Your Distraught character is indeed quite the opposite of your main character, Naive to a fault….But may God bless you anyway,

I get it. He must be me because he is so different from me. And I must be me because I am so much the same as me. LOL. Joe, you crack me up.
115 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 25th, 2006 at 4:47 am

Back to the CCOF topic. Is there any history at all of the CCOF going into a situation and making it better? Has anyone had any such experience or heard of any such experience?

Do they have any published ethical standards for ministers? So far, it appears that the answer is no. If they have no published standards then how do they decide in these sorts of situations what is right? Is it just who’s tightest with Chuck Smith that wins?

We’ve seen how Chuck Smith goes into local church board meetings like the one at Twin Falls that was intended by the board of CCTF to confront Mike Kestler and instead Smith ended up defending Kestler due to his financial interests in Kestler’s operations. That’s in Smith’s own words.

How can an organization headed by Smith to investigate be trusted when Smith has betrayed the trust so blatently as in the Kestler case? It happens because in CC, Chuck Smith is judge, jury and executioner.

People want to think that Chuck Smith does not matter. That the kingdom of Calvary Chapel is crumbling and that Smith is old. Smith shows he still has an iron grip on things like then when CCOF is called in. Smith is the head of the board of CCOF, right? And Smith will be investigating conflict of interest issues at CA? How can that even be said with a straight face by CA?
116 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 25th, 2006 at 4:56 am

What is the extent of Smith’s conflicts of interest in the CA situation?
Clearly Smith is in with Heitzig because at least at one point in the past Heitzig was heir apparent to CCCM or some other parts of Smith’s empire. There is indication that is the reason that Heitzig returned to California. He thought it would put him closer to the prize - CCCM.

Smith’s own testimony of “what God has done at CC” depends upon shoring up people like Heitzig. If the first ring of people who are highlighted in Harvest falls than it’s a pretty serious indictment of Smith himself.

Heitzig has been on the board of CCOF in the past or had some extensive involvment with CCOF.

I am sure that there are other connections. All of this points to the reason that CCOF is unqualified to investigate this particular situation.

What Needs to Happen
What I am calling for is an independent investigation of ministerial ethical violations by Skip Heitzig at CA.

CC and or CA needs to hire an ethics consultant and agree from the start that any report will be made public. Such a consultant can be found at most prominent Christian universities or seminaries. Vanguard University, Fuller Seminary or a half dozen other possiblities are close to CCCM.

The result should be an adoption of a written ministerial ethical standard for use in all CCs plus a mandatory training program in ministerial ethics which would follow at annual meetings of the pastors. To be affiliated a pastor would have to take this class and pass a test on the materials.
117 Nancy
Mar 25th, 2006 at 6:06 am

Is anyone in a possition to help Heather? She is going to take big time heat for her post. Is anyone in a possition to give her support without adding to the heat?

If it really was Heather … she needs our prayer. Most of us have seen too many examples of how badly people who try to hold CC accountable are treated. How old is she?

Please everyone … pray for Heather.

Nancy
118 Erunner
Mar 25th, 2006 at 7:28 am

Heather has been married 11 years and has five children and lives in California. If ytou click her name you will see her blog.
119 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 25th, 2006 at 7:32 am

The CCOF Charter says…
Accountability is first to the pastor who ordained the applicant to minister.

My assumption, and somebody correct me if I am wrong, is that Skip Heitzig is therefore accountable to Chuck Smith. I am saying this based on the assumption that it was church who ordained Skip originally. He certainly was the one who sent Skip out.

If you’ve never read Skip’s testimony see:

http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/harvest.htm#09

If that’s the case, then it’s up to Chuck in the CCOF system to disciple Skip. And it’s up to us to call on Chuck to do just that.
120 Sojourner
Mar 25th, 2006 at 7:42 am

Regarding the CCOF,
It’s nice that they recognize the fact that there are problems in some of the churches and they have an organization to look into things, but really, it is like the fox guarding the hen house. There are too many emotional and financial ties, so it is a conflict of interest for them to really deal with “Pastors Gone Wild.” It’s a nice gesture, but it’s doubtful that they will police their own -especially when there are big bucks at stake. I don’t know much about it, but given human nature, it’s not too promising.

Heather, you’re a brave soul! Thanks for sharing the inside scoop on what it is really like inside the inner circle. The Lord be with you!
121 Nancy
Mar 25th, 2006 at 8:19 am

Erunner … thanks.
122 noname
Mar 25th, 2006 at 10:09 am

The following is based on my experience w/ CCOF and info that an “insider” CC pastor shared with me …

To better understand CCOF, put on your calvary hats. CCOF is not a super formal organization (nothing in calvary is, right?). CCOF’s so-called “board members” (the men who review “cases”) can change according to people’s schedules, the situation that is being reviewed, or the agenda of CCCM (Chuck). The board does NOT look like a formal review board in a formal denomination. It’s just a small group of men Chuck has picked to help him herd cats at any given moment. My perception is that they don’t have tons of formal meetings. They meet informally– they pick up the phone or visit in person when needed (remember calvary is super informal, so is this “board”).

When it suits CCOF’s “board members” (Chuck, Paul and whoever else they include at the time), they ask regional “bishops” to get involved. (These types of situations would be “lower level” — something Chuck, Paul and crew think they don’t need to intervene in). Sometimes these “bishops” are pastors of megachurches who tend to speak at CC conferences. I don’t know if every “region” has a “bishop” or how they’ve carved it up.

For bigger cases, complaints (from laity or asst pastors) are sometimes circulated to the men serving as so-called “board members” at the time. Sometimes the process starts with Paul Smith, who has been “in charge” of CCOF on an administrative level (but doesn’t have the #1 decision making authority). A so-called “board member” can intervene in the review process and contact the pastor who the complaint was lodged against. (For example, if one of the so-called “board members” knows the pastor, he will contact him and ask about the situation.) If a board member sides with the pastor (without even ever talking to the lay person or asst pastor who lodged the complaint), the case can be closed very quickly in favor of the pastor.

Board members also sometimes give advice to the pastor about how to “handle” the lay or asst pastor who is complaining (ask them to step down from leadership, ask them to leave the church, etc).
123 Sojourner
Mar 25th, 2006 at 10:26 am

I know from our experience, well over ten years ago, that nothing happened after many wrote letters to Costa Mesa. I don’t know what they did with the letters. No one ever got a response. They allowed the church to die of natural causes a few years later - and it was very ugly. Many people were stumbled.
124 Calvary Chapel of the Tundra-TM
Mar 25th, 2006 at 10:33 am

That makes me wonder if CA called in the CCOF or the CCOF decided to investigate on their own and this is how CA is spinning it?
125 noname
Mar 25th, 2006 at 10:41 am

Think more informally … I doubt if CA “called” CCOF or CCOF decided to “investigate” CA. Remember, these men are all dear friends. This is the method (a CCOF so-called “investigation”) they’ve all collectively decided to use to try to “resolve” the situation in the eyes of the congregation.
126 Big Guy
Mar 25th, 2006 at 7:29 pm

Heatherly - props to you for your comments. I hope no one gives you nor your dad any grief over them - you have every right to speak your mind!

I wish a lot more Heatherlys would come out from amongst the “sheep” and speak their minds like this.
127 Pat
May 5th, 2009 at 9:41 am

It seems strange to me that you spend so much time slamming Calvary Chapels. We are certainly not perfect but we teach biblically and clearly love God and our neighbor.
Aren’t you just peeing into the wind?
128 John Perfect
Jun 6th, 2009 at 9:51 pm

Warmest Greetings.
Please can you help.
I am looking for the contact details of Roger Wing - email address - I would like to communicate with him, if possible.

Much regards
John Perfect
South Africa
129 heather hanlon
Dec 8th, 2009 at 8:30 am

hi my grandfather is roger wing. all these things you are saying about him are wrong and non-christian like you all should be ashamed of yourselves. i know how my grandfather is but there is no need to talk and make “rumors” about him. all the things that you are saying are horrible!!! i will be praying for all of you

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