While that's the official theme, the sub theme is one of CCOF trying to draw the company line about eschatology, the emergent church, and Rick Warren.
The only question today is whether the myriad conflicts within the leadership and among the rank and file actually manifest next week.
Today is also as a good time to look back and see how things have changed since we started the PP.
There has been progress in some areas.
First, there is communication and discussion between pastors and between ourselves and pastors that didn't exist before.
The closing of the SMP blog certainly put a chill on that, but sometimes progress involves taking a step back before going forward again.
Second, there have been many church constitutions changed over the last three years that curb the absolute power of senior pastors and provide for accountability and discipline.
Third, many of the pastors have pursed further education and education outside the movement to become better trained in theology and Biblical exposition.
On a personal level, we have made great friends and their contributions here have been very valuable in many ways.
The biggest issue still on the table for me is that there is still no standard for accountability or discipline among the Distinctives, nor is there any recourse for parishioners affected by rogue pastors.
We'll keep working…
It would be interesting to hear how CC pastors themselves see things and what if any contribution they think this community has made to their movement.
In other matters…
"More Than Coping" deals with issues relating to mental health and depression from a Christian perspective and has a wealth of information and resources available…
If I feel better tonight I'm going to the "revival".
I'm hoping that Martin Luther's angel will go with me…
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
Phoenix Preacher faxline: 1-888-270-7191
EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA -
One of Rick Warren’s staunchest critics — BOB DEWAAY — just met privately with Rick Warren last week and he has had some very interesting things to state publicly.
Among the various observations he made, one of the most shockingly candid was that THEOLOGICALLY both he and Warren have no major disagreements, and that it all comes down to ministry philosophy!!
For all you CC pastors lurking out there, who will be attending this conference, I urge you to consider the VERY important remarks made by Bob Dewaay, who again, I say, has been one of Warren’s most consistent critics:
– “Pastor Rick listened with kindness and respect to everything we said.”
– “There were no differences of theology that I know of, other than we had a chasm in a difference in ministry philosophy.”
– “Some people were concerned that we were going to get mesmerized or he was going to try to draw us in. They didn’t even try to do that. I think he genuinely wanted to know why were we disagreeing with him so vociferously.”
– “He agreed with me that you can’t get sanctification and salvation through general revelation.”
– “My conclusion is this: the chasm between Chris Rosebrough, and me, and Rick Warren that exists is based on ministry philosophy primarily. Privately, we agree on most doctrines.”
There is a faint light shining at the end of this very long and dark tunnel that we have been stumbling through. I pray that the light grows stronger and brighter.
I applaud Dewaay for his candor, honesty, integrity, and spirit of genuine care/concern, and openness to hearing what Warren actually believes theologically. I am hoping that many individuals will see that this is all little more than an issue of ministry philosophy, rather than the emergence of some bizarre Warren Smith-esk, conspiratorial, one-world, New Age religion with Warren playing the lead Pide Piper!
There is a lot of repenting that needs to take place at this point - and not on Warren’s part.
I will be making audio clips available when time permits. If interested DeWaay’s statements about Warren are in the last 20 minutes of his lecture to the his church.
I suggest you download ASAP the TWIN CITY FELLOWSHIP meeting where this took place.
The ODMs and “discerners” are already starting to freak out a bit and actually say things like: “I would disagree that Bob and Rick actually theologically agree. I think if Bob said that, he should not have.” Say what???? Now, Dewaay suddenly doesn’t know what he himself believes theologically!
(oh, btw, Michael, you have a present coming in the mail).
R. Abanes
LOL. It looks like there’s just a little bit of fear-mongering in their conference poster.
“If I feel better tonight I’m going to the “revival”.
I’m hoping that Martin Luther’s angel will go with me…” LOL!
Michael, if I lived closer, I’d go with you! Would get there early and sit right in the front, oh, what a sight that would be
Rich,
That’s pretty amazing about Dewaay, who has more than a tad bit of influence.
That took some guts…
I wonder if Warren Smith will use that for his presentation?
I like presents!
Scott,
I’m very curious…very.
Michael, I watched the Albany Vineyard live stream last night. It was just a workshop for people to “practice” their “Prophetic gifts”. Really not much to it in light of the Rob Delucca “Prophesy”. Take away the incessant beat of the music for literally over 2 hours, and you really have nothing there.
At one point towards the end of the service, Denny Kline (Pastor) was attempting to give a “Salvation message” to any “Unbelievers” who might of been there. It was sad, all the time he was trying to share the “Gospel”, people were in groupings all over the building and were continuing to shout stuff over the prayer recipients, stuff like “FIRE” “GLORY” “FILL”, etc. It was completely disoriented and out of order.
None of these Guys hold a candle to Todd Bentley by the way. As far as his persuasiveness, cadence, etc.
I don’t think I’ll be visiting the “Revival” in Albany or Medford, anytime soon
You guys will have to forgive me if my poster is just a bit over the top.
I don’t get to pick the themes. Within the CC movement there does seems to be a sense of urgency. I felt my poster conveyed this faithfully.
As far as fear mongering was concerned, I do feel I was able to keep it just shy of Jonathan Edward’s “Sinners in the hands of an angry God”.
My suggested theme, “Why we aren’t Submergent” was soundly rejected.
Perhaps it was my suggested graphic.
http://www.chippingnorton.net/images/Take off.jpg
Even after I pointed out that it was a Bentley nose diving.
Once again, you’ll have to copy/paste the whole line into your browser for the payoff!
Jessica –
Fear-mongering? Why there’s lots of fuse left on that bomb. And look, the young, white, male, married guy in the poster can read the Pauline Epistles casually, with his shirt-tail out and one hand in his pocket. That’s not fear! That’s a call to a relaxed attitude!
I thought the poster was creative and reflected how some folks in the movement feel.
At least it didn’t show Rick Warren with a match in his hand.
MDSF
If only I could have found a pic of a pastor is a hawaiian shirt with an open bible …perfection!
If I’d been thinking clearly, I would have set up a photo shoot!
Next year (thinking optimistically here), perhaps something with a Harley!
AB –
You’ve got a tough task. I don’t envy you.
Michael,
LOL! Perhaps, “You’ve been Warrened”, or “Warrening the Sheep” would have been in order!
Now you see why they don’t let me pick the themes!
This is way off topic, but I’ve been busy this week and I’ve only been able to pop in and out here, but I wanted to just say this one thing:
Thank God for YouTube!
funny, I am teaching 2Peter 3:1-10 Sunday before I get on the plane to go to the Conference -
“Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking . . .” (2Peter 3:3)
Had to share.
Shaun,
That is funny, because it’s taken out of context to slam people.
Hilarious.
Let’s look at the WHOLE verse.
“This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.”
(2Peter 3:1-3 ESV)
So what sinful desires are we pursuing, Shaun?
Micheal -
who said I was talking about or slamming anyone???
I just thought it was funny timing. Delete it if you find it so offensive.
Also, concerning context, I did link the first 10 verses . . .
Shaun,
If that wasn’t your intent we’ll let it go.
Unfortunately, I have a collection of about 100 emails misquoting that verse from pretribbers who are upset that I can’t see that Warren and the emergents are leading us back to Rome before the tribulation.
Shaun,
Hope you didn’t think I was mocking the theme.
We in the CC movement have to be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes and the way we are perceived by those of other perspectives.
I thought the timing of my sermon was funny - obviously if you have to explain a joke, it ain’t funny.
I had no way of knowing what Michael gets in his email.
I’m with Michael on this, I will just drop it.
A Believer -
I took your comments as funny,
I took Jessicas fear mongering comment as funny.
I took Michael’s comment about Rick Warren holding the match as funny.
I was surprised by the response - jokes about Calvary ok, joke that (even accidently) defends Calvary - not ok. We still have a long way to go don’t we.
AB -
I copied the whole link & still got nada. Oh well. “Why we aren’t submergent”…funny.
Shaun did you paste the whole link into you browser window? and then hit enter?
Oh sorry that was for Tim.
Make sure you select the whole content of the browser window, then paste Tim.
From the article:
“It would be interesting to hear how CC pastors themselves see things and what if any contribution they think this community has made to their movement.”
Here’s how I see things:
(1) There’s been a marvelous community and friendship developed among brothers & sisters in Christ who might not have otherwise spoken with each other, should this forum not exist. Praise God.
(2) Is there official recourse for any rogue-pastor incidents? Perhaps not official…but there’s certainly an unofficial voice & ministry here. Don’t discount how God is using this place.
(3) Is the perception about PP changing among CC pastors? Yes…albeit slowly. I’m looking forward to the day when PP is seen as a friend and a resource among the majority of CC folks…and I honestly don’t think that’s too far off.
All in all, I see PP as a good influence upon CC. Things may have started out in all-out war, but as people started talking with one another & praying for one another, the core ideas that PP proposed started being listened to. There are still people who bear the battle-scars of the early days (on both sides, I’m sure!) who may need some more time…but that should be expected.
On a related note, you might be surprised to hear how like-minded PP & CC are in what we feel is the greatest threat facing the church today: the discarding of the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. CC is republishing some books from the early 1900’s that dealt with the issue & whenever I’ve heard Paul Smith speak about it, he does so with almost unequaled passion. My feeling is that CC overall is going to be moving away from the ‘discernment’ ministries & embracing a proactive apologetic on the Scriptures. So in that, I rejoice - yes, and will rejoice.
“Make sure you select the whole content of the browser window, then paste Tim.”
Sounds sticky.
Actually, that’s what I did…but thanks anyway!
No biggy Tim,
Just a silly pic of a Bentley nose diving into a pool.
Looking at a link would just deprive you of using your imagination!
Great post at 12:20 BTW.
AB –
There’s an embedded space in your URL; my URL-fixing skills are a little rusty, but you need an escape sequence (something with an % in it, I suspect) to fix it.
Hope this helps.
I would like to take the time to thank all of the contributors on this blog. I have mostly lurked and gleaned over the past few years and the exposure to consider struggles in CC (a church of which I attend) has given me a badly-needed flip-side of the coin. Not to say I agree with all critics, but the issues that have been brought up have challenged me to look at what I believe and why I believe it to see if it’s biblical, and to be thankful for my CC pastor who, like many of the other CC pastors who contribute here, has a humble and teachable heart and loves on his sheep.
Also, I would never know of some of the struggles and attacks on the Body in my own little world, so keep up the good work all!
Quotation
Testing. (for Tim and others interested)
http://tiny.cc/ZIuSp
A lot of work for not much. Ah, the dangers of humorous links.
Well, that worked sort of.
If you stare at the page it will eventually come up. The downside was I had to stare at Obama for a while.
Clicking the link from the center of that page did work though.
Linking ain’t what it used to be. I think I may retire.
My goal for the pastors conference this year is a simple one. I am hoping to get a copy of Warren Smith’s book, personally autographed and inscribed to Richard Abanes, thanking him for promoting his stuff so effectively. If I can pull that off, the conference was a success.
AB –
Here you go:
http://www.chippingnorton.net/images/Take off.jpg
Now if you were doing a poster for the Grassley investigation that might well be the perfect image.
Wow. I did it too.
I think WordPress is doing something to the URL en route.
Here’s yet one more link to the picture AB keeps trying to show. And I beg to differ–linking is all that it used to be and more.
Tim,
I can amen that…we’re going to have to fight the “Battle For The Bible” all over again and I think CC can lead the way for the Body at large.
***Fear-mongering? Why there’s lots of fuse left on that bomb. And look, the young, white, male, married guy in the poster can read the Pauline Epistles casually, with his shirt-tail out and one hand in his pocket. That’s not fear! That’s a call to a relaxed attitude!***
What you speak is true, and in light of that I recind my earlier statement.
I do however, still think it’s pretty funny that they turned the earth into a giant cherry bomb.
Faulty Premises of the Church Growth Movement
Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Donald McGavran, and C. Peter Wagner Mislead the Church
by Bob DeWaay
“They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” (1John 4:5, 6)
“It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart. . . . It may take some time to identify it. But the most likely place to start is with the person’s felt needs.”1 (Rick Warren)
If we compare what the Apostle John said with what a famous Church Growth2 advocate says, we encounter a problem. John says that the world will not listen to a true, unsullied Christian message. Rick Warren says that anybody can be won to Christ if we discover a message that will interest them through promising to meet their felt needs. These concepts are contradictory. The Biblical idea is that we must speak God’s unchanging message of the gospel whether the world hates us or not: “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (John 15:19). The Church Growth idea is that we must study man (using the latest sociological, psychological, and anthropological insights) to determine how to create a church that will grow and a message that will be popular through appealing to a target audience. Someone is wrong here and I do not think it is the inspired Apostle John.
The Modern Church Growth Movement
Since the advent of the modern church growth movement which dates from the 1950’s, pastors and local churches have been under massive pressure to do something to facilitate church growth. The movement was founded primarily by two people, independently. Those people are Donald McGavran and Robert Schuller. Donald McGavran wrote The Bridges of God in 1955. C. Peter Wagner claims that this book, “launched the Church Growth Movement.”3 Rick Warren cites McGavran’s book as being influential early in his ministry.4 About that same time Robert Schuller started his ministry in California which became the Crystal Cathedral. Later, in 1970, Schuller founded the Robert Schuller Institute for Successful Church Leadership, where he has trained many key leaders in the Church Growth Movement including Bill Hybels and Rick Warren.5 It is accurate to say the McGavran is the intellectual founder of the movement and Schuller the most visible popularizer of the movement.
The movement has spawned some highly visible “successes” such as Willow Creek Church and Saddleback Church. Nevertheless, in spite of fifty years of training thousands of pastors, weekly church attendance in America has not risen in terms of the percentage of the population.6 Church growth advocates often cite the figure that 80% of churches are declining or are in a state of plateau. Seminaries use that figure to support the need to learn church growth principles. Since the movement has yet to reverse the trends, another way of interpreting these figures is to know that if you accept the definitions of the Church Growth Movement, 80% of all those going into the ministry are failing. Teaching Church Growth in seminaries has yet to reverse the trend.
Whatever else the Church Growth Movement has done, it has convinced the majority of church leaders that if their local organization is not growing, this is a sure sign they are “unhealthy” and failing. Rick Warren says, “Forget church growth, Church health is the key to church growth. All living things grow if they’re healthy. You don’t have to make them grow — it’s just natural for living organisms.”7 So, according to this thinking, failure to grow is a sign of disease or sickness. Having convinced pastors and other church leaders that they are failing, Warren and others leave them desperate for a solution. The following email I received from a CIC reader reflects this:
READ THE REST @
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue89.htm
Jessica,
I thank God for Photoshop daily.
And you all should thank God daily no one has shown me how to link my own Photoshop images to the PP.
Dave, I think you may actually have a chance of pulling that off!
Dave Rolph,
Michael: “I’m hoping that Martin Luther’s angel will go with me…”
A few well-placed cuss words and breaking wind at the devil ought to pretty much close the thing down. Hope you feel better soon.
DAVE ROLF = ROFL.
Yes, and please do tell Warren that I send my warmest greetings from the depths of my dungeon. And if he wants, I’ll give him a nice red cloak to match mine - the tastefully embroidered 666 on the back is very fashionable throughout the satanic underground. (Oh, and it has pockets.)
Rick,
Is that where you keep your M&M’s?
Sorry! Richard, not Rick, I keep forgetting!
No no no. M&M’s are so simple in their molecular structure that I can just conjure them up — kind of like the White Witch in The Chronicles of Narnia can make Turkish Delight! She’s so cool. I run a fan club for her.
RA
Dave Rolph=subversive.
Richard,
I can see the red ones are your favorites.
since it’s a slow day and I have nothing to say, I’ve got to try Dusty’s instructions to do italics one more time
or can one only do one word at a time she said bodly ?
AB
You coming to Efest?
Aha! can’t spell, but otherwise I’m ok now
You’re in my prayers, Dusty
God keep
Huzzah, Psalmy! I think you got it.
Very good psalm62! I won’t even attempt it, but…
since Jessica is here, can you help me with some of these smilies?
How do you do the one with the sunglasses?
Mk, you should find all the smiley help you need on this webpage.
Let me try..
8:)
Cool!
Thanks, Jessica!
Let me try a couple..
Last ones..
What fun!
italics
bold
Bob,
Right back at ya..
I feel like I have acquired FIRE!!!
shaun,
appropriate for me =
no way, RA!
I think if anything there is more of an awareness of our weaknesses…that’s always a good place to start. Awareness.
This blog has been a means for bringing that awareness. For every CC pastor that posts here there are 10 that read and are being challenged in their perspectives and practices.
The PP has helped me to see the entire body of Christ…no matter what movement or denomination you attach yourself to it’s easy to become arrogant and exclusive. The PP helps to unify different parts of the Body in that there is such a divergence of background, belief, and praxis represented here.
Here is a link to a post on my blog where I write about this very subject.
http://ryancouch.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/romans-1216/
That’s a great post on your blog, Ryan.
Ryan,
AMEN!
Ryan,
Great article!
Food 4 Thought,
That was an awesome article. Thank you for posting that!!!
JimB
Thanks Michael, mk, and Fred.
Fred…it was great to meet you today. My mom was very excited about the comfort project cd. She said my dad will really enjoy that.
ryan are you going to e-fest?????
RA
RA…when is it?
ANOTHER ATTENTION!!!!
This very important post was just made by another staunch critic of Rick Warren - Chris Rosebrough.
I would ask that all of you PLEASE support Chris in this major step of faith, love, integrity, honesty, godliness, Christ-honoring compassion, understanding, balance, and heartfelt concern for EVERYONE in the Body of Christ.
I absolutely could not have said what he said any better. And I actually look forward to learning from Chris and coming to understand more clearly his views of many things. He and I, in fact, have been in contact and are continuing our dialogue. I really like the guy. And I am confident that he truly does love the Lord with his heart and he is very interested in truth, defending the faith, and moving forward in a way that could help apologetics/discernment throughout the Body of Christ.
GO CHRIS!
ALL OF US — including me — need to continue striving for growth, understanding, and unity based not JUST on biblical doctrine, but also love, calm understanding, a willingness to listen, and a desire to meet each other where God has placed us in the Body.
I am very very very very encouraged - and I am rejoicing today. let us pray……….
R. Abanes
Sorry Bob,
I was away. Yes, I’ll be at E-fest.
Especially if Abanes shows up. I want him to autograph one of his books for me so I can personally give it to Warren Smith.
Then I will know that my trip to E-fest has been a success!
I’m also curious as to when Dave is going to write a book.
I wonder if “Ninja Pastor” is taken? I’d like to help him with his cover.
I hope to be there and will bring a box of my books. $10 ea, signed, and delivered — you can’t beat that. LOL.
never heard of Dewaay. Fear mongering?? Only if you’re under 12.
“The only question today is whether the myriad conflicts within the leadership and among the rank and file actually manifest next week.”
No. Wouldn’t count on it. But then again, that’s not the way we do conferences. We’ll see. Should be an interesting week. I just hope the teaching is solid exposition.
***Fear mongering?? Only if you’re under 12.***
They turned the earth into a giant bomb. That’s certainly not promoting hope about the future.
Centy,
I’m afraid some of the teaching is going to solid accusation.
Ryan,
Make copies of your thread header and pass them out at the conference.
Pastor, Pastor, if you get a chance, check out the clip I just posted on the Lakeland thread.
Centy, drop me an email when you get a chance.
AB,
I liked your art work. Solidly pre-mill, pre-trib, pro CC and very CC PC.
Pastor2,
just Romans 12:16…or print the text too?
Ryan, what’s the score?
Richard,
I think it is cool that Dewaay is saying that RW is okay doctrinally, and that Rosebrough is saying we should be nice to each other, but how significant do you really think all this is? They both sound like they are opposed to Rick’s methodology, which is probably the more serious accusation anyway. Anyone who questioned Rick’s theology was just ignorant in the first place. I would take it as a pretty backhanded compliment if someone said, “I’m sure you believe the basic truths of Christianity, but I am opposed to what you are doing and how you are doing it.”
I know I am probably in the minority on this, but I wish people would just serve the Lord in the way He leads them, stop worrying about how other people are seeking to serve the Lord, and just let God sort it out. Is Rick Warren going to have to spend the rest of his life meeting with people no one ever heard of, so he can defend himself to them? I wish people would just leave the guy alone, and take the challenge to try to do it better than he does, if you don’t like the way he is doing it.
I have to admit I am totally joyful about those Gentlemen meeting with Pastor Warren. That is fantastic.
An aside, from the cheap left field bleacher seats, or out on the tailgate trying to listen to the echoes of the loud speaker. I reminiscent over the time I was involved in a faith based disagreement. I guess I want to stress this with deep reflection. When my “brethren” said what they said it hurt, deeply but it was quite effective. It is very hard to un-ring the bell. I wish us as Christians could talk better, I dont think that can happen at the lay person level, we are not that important from a ministry perspective. This may be whiny, I am sure it is but broken fellowship hurts worse than anything I have ever felt. It should not and I should grow up and move on. I have moved on. I do see a light at the end of the tunnel myself.
I think it’s very significant.
It’s one thing to question a person’s methodology - i.e., 1) disagree with how they view the proper way to advance the Gospel, 2) express concerns over some church concepts and doctrines not being sufficiently fleshed out to the masses, 3) note how certain approaches to evangelism might not work best in all churches, 4) raise objections over about becoming a bit too pragmatic. These are all valuable observations that can be discussed civilly, disagreed with in a productive way, and when it coems to differences - even accepted as within the pale of orthodoxy.
However, it is another thing entirely to see what we have been seeing — i.e., all of the intense, extremist, radical accusations that have labeled Warren a heretic of the worst kind, a New Ager, a satanically-energized deceiver, a tool of the anti-Christ, a man who never preaches Christ or the Gospel (or if he does, then it’s a completely false Christ and false Gospel).
With Dewaay’s comments now on record about his theology/doctrines compared to Warren’s theology/doctrines being basically in line with each other (i.e., as compatible as any Calvinist & Southern Baptist & Lutheran can be theologically/doctrinally), then what it means is that if the critics continue to state vile things about Warren’s doctrines/theology, then they are at the same time pointing the finger at Dewaay, who by his own words, has stated:
– “My conclusion is this: the chasm between Chris Rosebrough, and me, and Rick Warren that exists is based on ministry philosophy primarily. Privately, we agree on most doctrines.”
– “There were no differences of theology that I know of, other than we had a chasm in a difference in ministry philosophy.”
Yes, this is VERY significant. And since it is now public, rather inescapable.
I am all for discussing methodologies, styles of evangelism, etc etc etc. I don’t even agree with Warren on all of these issues!! So, to my mind, this is landmark. I have no problem saying they disagree with Warren’s ministry philosophy and keeping those disagreements in perspective. That is all I have ever tried to encourage and establish.
RAbanes
I’m looking forward to seeing some old friends and meeting some that I know only through blogging.
Pastor, pastor,
I hope that isn’t the case. Usually the panel discussion brings some balance. See ya next week…………. I think
Centorian,
WAIT WAIT!!! I….uhm, I didn’t get my invitation!! Are you sure you guys have my correct address? ROFL.
RA
Rich,
I think you’re right…it’s an excellent model of how we’re supposed to try to resolve conflicts.
Abanes……………………..
told ya a while ago to set up shop at the Starbucks on Winchester, or one of the In-n-Outs. You’ll have plent of CC pastors to talk with……
I’ve only been around for just over two years, but what a ride it’s been.
This blog (or as some like to call it, a BLOG), when I found it was a place where people could discuss various topics surrounding the Calvary Chapel movement, and argue over them, and debate them.
It eventually became a unique online community, where people could vent and pour their hearts out, and be heard, where people could joke around and talk like normal human beings, and where they could pray for others and be prayed for by others. In that regard I have never been able to find its counterpart anywhere else online.
Today, former enemies are friends, and some posters have been hit with the blogging bug! Not only is Phoenix Preacher still going, it is going as strong as it ever was.
Michael, may you have another 40 years of blogging before you have to retire and turn the reins over!
Rich,
You may be right. I’ve just never taken the extreme stuff seriously, and tend to think the whack-ohs discredit themselves. I’m happy that you’re happy though.
Thank you, BrianD.
If I have to do another forty, you have to come with me…
Jessica,
“They turned the earth into a giant bomb. That’s certainly not promoting hope about the future.”
They was me.
I was trying to find a way to show an old earth giving birth to a new one.
That would have been hopeful, but I couldn’t find a way to do that without grossing everyone out.
Besides what I used was indeed CC PC, and satisfied my 12 year old need for pyrotechnics!
Michael,
With all the blogs that have come after yours, I think you should do a video on Pirate Blogs.
CENT: told ya a while ago to set up shop at the Starbucks on Winchester, or one of the In-n-Outs. You’ll have plent of CC pastors to talk with……
RA: Because it would be quite a drive for me, I just can’t go and hang out. (Also, we have only 1 car and don’t want to leave wifey for who knows how long without a car). But I’ll tell you what — you set up a time/place, you get some of the guys to commit to being there, you email me the time/place with 24 hours notice - and I’ll be there. And you can ask me anything you want.
RAbanes
Dave,
I was thinking about that today…
***They was me.
I was trying to find a way to show an old earth giving birth to a new one.***
Okay, I’ll accept that explaination. I guess the picture just remindes too much of my childhood pastor who was absolutely obsessed with the End Times and who, every year, was convinced that it would be the last year before the Rapture happened and the Apocalypse began.
Rich,
Will you PLEASE try to do a book on these blasphemous frauds in Florida???
You’re welcome, Michael!
BrianD~ You’re right man. I have scoured the blogosphere these past few weeks and…
Micheal
Have you ever been in a small church where people seem to be dieing left and right. What happened
Or anyone else who might have a word from the Lord for me?
I guess I’m in for the long haul, one way or another…
Richard,
Perhaps we misread each other some. I think we were both talking tongue and cheek, at least partially. Perhaps another time. But, thanks for the invitation.
crunchy,
Yes, but it wasn’t unexpected, it was an elderly congregation.
I believe God appoints the time for each ones departure…but each one leaves a scar.
Cent,
Blog voice discernment problems = the worts thing about blogging. LoL.
RA
crunchy,
do you have the book “comforting the bereaved” by warren and david wiersbe?
If you don’t I really recommend it…it is a great resource for officiating funerals.
http://www.amazon.com/Comforting-Bereaved-Warren-Wiersbe/dp/0802452930
RA…………..yep, lol.. but again I appreciate your willingness. I’ll think of you when I eat at In-n-Out Sunday night, which is where I hope to go just as soon after the plane slams down on the runway. Lord knows, I hate to fly!
former atc cent
Crunchy, are you saying that you are in a small church where people are “Physically” dying??? What do you mean by, “What happened”???
scott….ugm
Jessica,
Those with a dispensational perspective, or a pre-mill perspective, do indeed see things getting worse in the world before they get better.
We still have a great apoastacy and tribulation to get through before the glorious millenial kingdom arrives.
Now, when those with this perspective see things getting worse in the world and in the Church, they just see the millenium with Christ reigning as that much closer , and this brings them great joy and hope. They don’t see this as pessimistic but as optimistic in outlook.
The danger lies, as you suggest, in obsessing over these matters.
It is not dangerous to have strong opinions that your eschatology is the correct one. That is okay. It’s okay to feel you are right on a position.
The problem as I see it is holding our positions in arrogance and being unwilling to dialogue with others of differing perspectives, or to hold them in contempt regard because they don’t share our view.
…should read “in contempt or to hold them in low regard”
And of course I botched apostasy!
Michael,
I thought for sure you were going to ask Crunchy if they had turned the Lord’s supper into a wild potluck!
Game 5 of the Stanley Cup Final will be the first evening of the conference.
I may have to sit in the back or overflow for the first time ever, so my screaming and jumping and yelling and pounding don’t annoy my fellow pastors.
“I guess the picture just reminds too much of my childhood pastor who was absolutely obsessed with the End Times and who, every year, was convinced that it would be the last year before the Rapture happened and the Apocalypse began.”
Jessica,
Having been part of CC since I moved to SCal in 1978 I would offer that your statement still describes the CC obsession with end times. Have you ever heard the old saying “It’s all gonna burn!” ?
What an image… a guy (presumably a pastor) calmly reading his bible with no body language hinting at urgency, just ignoring a fuse within his reach that he could try to extinguish!
I’d love to see a Photoshopped version of him having reached over and pinched the fuse, though his fingers might be burned, but the smoke swirling up into a Maranatha! dove… THAT could be hopeful, but it would change the end times paradigm, and maybe that would be the alternative paradigm we could pray for and see arise within this new generation of CC.
AB, I want to see THAT image!!!
How about a hopeful image, like the story of Nineveh, and that God will mercifully forstall destruction if turn to Him and ask Him to do something about it?
But then, as “an Emerger” I guess I’m asking for a different vision, one that does not view unfulfilled prophesy as merely predictive, but actually preventative.
Guess we’d best tread lightly AB.
A “hopeful” image of A New Earth would have people tagging you as a fan of Eckhart Tolle
http://eckharttolle.com/files/Image/Books Pages/A New Earth/ANE_Book_Cover_OBC_LG.jpg
Scott
Yes physically dieing 3 20 somthing year old sons another young son in ICU with in days of his older brothers funeral Cancer deaths Elderly left and right within days months all together. Lost jobs and on and on our church is 150 members and varies in age.
sorry, try the pic here http://eckharttolle.com/a_new_earth
3, 20 somthings
crunchy,
What heartbreak!
I think God’s word for you might be found in words like “comfort”, compassion”, and the image of Jesus weeping when His friends told Him that His friend Lazarus had died. Jn11:35
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_wept
g-
your 6:24…………..
all I can say is grendal, grendal, grendal…………..
notwantingtobustyourchopscent
Mike,
Sitting in the back might be good as you will, no doubt, be sobbing after the Penz tie the series up!
Go Pittsburgh!
David (Everstudy)
I meant, take the lead back in the series as they will tie it up tomorrow…
Prime time, NBC, 5pm pdst
Everdave - One way or another, this is shaping up to be an awesome series.
I was a bit worried after the first two games - two shut-outs?
But the Crosby Kid & Crew put up a better fight on Wednesday.
Grendal,
All I ask is that you hold your rejection of what others hold to be true just as humbly as I’m asking them to hold their acceptance.
If it turns out you were wrong, I want everyone to be giving you group hugs on the way up, not “I told you so’s!”
If it turns out you are right, then we know you are gracious and loving enough to sit with us as brothers for whatever may come.
Thank you Ryan Ill get the book.
Im out
I think the picture looks like the cover of a Watchtower magazine.
AB,
My wife thinks it looks like it could be easily photoshopped into an Al-Qaida enlistment poster… hmmmm… I think I’m onto an evening project…
AB,
For what it’s worth, I have no problem with the picture.
We live in a day when we have to pre-qualify, qualify, and post-qualify our remarks. Looks like that applies to art as well.
oh, it just gets better and better, doesn’t it.
nonemergingcent
The JW’s certainly like End Times themes. I agree.
Their stuff always looks cheesy though, and like it’s stuck in the 1950s.
Now I feel really insulted!
Would it help to know that pastor has a hidden tatoo and a faux hawk?
I’m going to commission Banksy to do a “pastor snuffs out the bomb-earth” graffitti
oh, and I forgot. He has on a pair of Chuck Taylor’s!
AB,
You know I love U. I’m just in an ironic mindset. At least it’s not the infamous 1Cor13 trampstamptat
….someone say “bomb earth”?
http://images.allposters.com/images/ATA/21501BP.jpg
~Nomanslovesmarvinologist
Grendal,
No problem. Like I said, I don’t pick the themes.
Just try to be faithful to the vision given.
If I did a project for you, I’m sure people would slam me from the other side, assuming I’m hanging out with Marcus Borg.
no foul.
Ryan,
It was great to meet you today, also.
I’ve given up on finding that CD for
now, but I should have some by the
middle of next week. I hope you and
the other pastors have a great conference
and be sure to eat at In-N-Out a few
times - great fries!
marcus borg………..lol !
Nomans,
Perhaps this would have been in order, …picture the hands near midnight!
http://www.disneythemes.com/store/marvin_the_martian_watch.jpg
I was just looking at CCCM on Google Maps - type in the address, then on the map click on Street View
I second the recommendation of the Wiersbe bereavement book. Someone lent it to me as I was preparing to officiate my 1st funeral…it is an excellent resource.
BTW - I’m praising God for an awesome day of ministry today. We were able to buy a bus ticket for someone to Illinois & walk through the gospel with him in the morning. And then in the afternoon we were able to give someone a box of groceries & walk through the gospel with him as well.
Of course in between all the mess, I had a ton of spiritual warfare including my foot pain, my fuelpump going out, and a disobedient 4 year old, but after a while it just gets to be pretty obvious what was behind it all.
Praise God for the opportunity to serve! Pray for the fellows I spoke with today, that they would get on their face before God in repentance.
Tim,
Does it not just get down to what you accomplish for the Lord each day. Thank you for that perspective.
Yesterdays thread and the testimony of the guy leaving the Lakeland blasphemy has really hit my heart and I am looking for some perspective.
I’ve been around (mostly lurking) for a couple years and really respect everyone here.
These words from yesterday:
“Those of us from the “more Lord” camp have come to the foot of the cross looking to get all that we can from Christ in order to live a life that is “more than abundant.” We have earnestly believed that with this abundant life, we would be able to expand the Kingdom of God and reach the world for Christ with our “kingdom power and kingdom wealth”. Therein lies the delusion! Is not this the same theology Satan tempted Jesus with in the wilderness?Luke 4: 5-6 “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, ‘All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will give it. If thou wilt worship me, all thine shall be thine.”)”
And:
“We say that we are hungry for God, but if we are honest with ourselves, we are really looking to benefit from His power. The power of God has been something to be pursued with all of our heart, time and resources. Let’s be honest; spiritual power is tantalizing. “God’s power” represents, whether we realize it or not, a quick fix to put in order those areas of our life that we will not through repentance, self-control, and the taking up our own cross to follow Him. Oh, if we only desired to have Christ’s character operating in our lives as much we desire the operation of spiritual gifts and annointings!”
There are very few options for solid bible teaching churches in my area. So we have been attending a more “seeker senstive” type, a “Purpose Driven” church. Their missions are fully in PEACE program, and NOBODY brings their bibles to church. The latest sermon series is called: iPwr - Downloading God’s power daily. I haven’t been to any, it just seems all so…shallow.
But when I read that guys testimony, and thought about what passes for preaching at these churches, it just hit me to the core of my heart. The bride of Christ is being fed milk when it needs meat! Filling in the blanks to a ready made template teaches you nothing of the nature of God and why you need a Savior…these teachings do nothing more than sugar coat life, and give the church goer the false idea that if he/she follows these simple principals then you too can have an abundant life! More Power, more Life, more, more, more!
I don’t think that is the message of our Lord. But is it the message of the “Purpose Driven” types and therefore Rick Warren? I don’t want to make this into a PDL or RW critique.
I guess I would like to know if these thoughts resonate with anybody else.
I see nothing but a “program” in these churches, just more window dressing.
I want more of the Lord! But I want Him honestly, and truthfully.
I hope I’m making sense.
Bart
Grendal
Good to hear from you!
Bob,
Love your Gravatar!
Very fitting for this thread!
AB,
You have great visual gifts and you always have, even if it’s for Oakland. Your graphics are better than the book’s themselves.
Px2 -
Thank you so much for the encouragement. I understand if you’d prefer to stay anonymous, but I’d love the opportunity to meet & chat for a bit at the conference if you’re going. I’m normally sitting over on the far right side of the conference room with a bunch of Texas & Oklahoma guys.
Blessings!
Tim,
Having grown up in an SBC with a bunch of tranplants from Oklahoma and Texas, I’m sure I’ll be able to spot y’all quickly. I’m looking forward to meeting you.
Tim,
I will look for you as well.
***AB,
You have great visual gifts and you always have, even if it’s for Oakland. Your graphics are better than the book’s themselves.***
I agree. Technically, it’s a very well done poster.
I can’t help it that everytime I look at it I’m reminded of the scene in Batman: The Movie when Adam West is running around trying to get rid of a huge cherry bomb, but he can’t because no matter where he tries to throw it there’s someone in the way–a mom with a baby in a carriage, two nuns, some little ducks. Hilarious.
But, to reiterate, technically you have mad skillz.
BobS!
HI! Ditto on the shirt!
AB,
Yep, I respect that you actually get to do what you do for a living!
Centy & Px2 -
Very cool…I’m looking forward to it!
Jessica,
AB has the tools to create great graphics. For enough money he could do you a great CD cover even if you don’t have a record to go in it.
That’s a compliment to him incidently.
Tim,
From what I know about bunions - go for the surgery if you need it!
I have plantars fascitis in one foot and the beginnings of a bunion
in the other. My mother has bunions and put off the surgery and at
84, most foot doctors won’t even think of operating due to the anesthesia.
I know of a couple of guys who had the surgery and are very happy with the
outcome. There are some variations in the procedure, so a couple of
opinions can’t hurt. I have had to have cortisone injections in my
foot where the bunion is beginning and hopefully the orthotics will
delay it. Hope your foot feels better and you have a great conference.
hi everyone. Y’all being good tonight?
Bart,
“2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”
by the time I post this someone will have responded in agreement with you, I’m sure
The shirt is in recognition of the cc pastors conference
My computer continues to show my old gravatar.
Hey Rich,
Caught you on Hanks show talking about that echart tolle or whatever dude, good stuff.
Want to come on up to the grand metropolis of Orting, Wa for a booksigning, oh say September 7th? We cant pay you, or buy an airplane ticket, but you can have the spare bedroom and I will buy you lunch
BTW can you play guitar? cause we need someone to sing as well.
Hi, Dusters..
time to call it a day, just stopped by for the blessings (& the funnies) - just reading in OT where Moses called out a bunch of rebels and it says the earth opened up and swallowed them - so I have a mental picture of that bomb going off and throwing them all over the heavens…not good - don’t blow up the earth.
God keep
hi Michael, been praying for you. How are you?
Hi Trey!
Bob, I see the Hawaiian shirt LOUD and clear
Thanks for the prayers.
I’m still a mess, but I’m fixin to lay down…I hope you’re feeling better…
Still seeing the old gravatar
Opps!
I am sorry you are not better.
I should get to bed myself…Night everyone.
Bob,
Go to your Internet Options and choose to delete your temporary files. Then come back to this page and do a refresh (’F5′ in IE). You should see the right gravitar then.
JimB
Michael:
You 11:35 exchange with Shawn was interesting. Not because of the misuse of scripture to slam people but because it is a great example of how even “line by line” preaching can fail.
What do I mean? Shawn used the line out of context to either make a point, mock someone or to make a joke? Which one does not matter because I have seen other and probably done the same thing myself. You brought it home by quoting the entire context of the scripture and a new view of what was said comes into sight.
You even left out what people were mocking which is in verse 4, the return of Jesus.
What is my point? It is too easy to use scripture in a manner that it was never intended and “line by line” guys are not exempt.
Now I actually support the idea of “Pastoring in the Last Days.” Not being a CC pastor I would hope the questions of what does scripture say about the last days and how will we preach and teach accordingly be taught.
I am a list maker so I would first make a list of scriptural last days stuff like “great fear” and then go after what the solution is to the fear.
Keep up the good work Michael!
Shawn praying for your conference.
Tim @ 7″56 says “but after a while it just gets to be pretty obvious what was behind it all.”
Uhh, that the rain falls on the just and the unjust? Foot pain, rascally 4 year olds, and cars experiencing mechanical failure all in the same day?? sounds more like normal life in the 21st century.
Forgive my sensitivity but one of my HUGE pet peeves is folks over spiritualizing the givens of life on planet earth especially when it interferes with ministry. If you weren’t a minister of the gospel the same shinola would happen to interrupt your day as well. Please don’t give evil more credit than it is due.
PX2,
Thanks for the kind words and vote of confidence.
I’ve known Roger for a very long time and love him as a brother.
It is not one of my requirements for friendship that we agree on everything (and trust me we don’t always).
I think that Roger is slightly more concerned that we agree on everything than I.
I think I may have an affinity for Don Quixote types with Jeremiah complexes.
If Roger sees this post, boy am I in trouble. I know he never reads this blog.
Don’t rat on me!
hi drew
night dusty
night Michael
Hey AB
hey Scott
Hey Mike
Hey ryan
Hey bob
Night Psalm 62
Hey BrianD
Hey G dawg
Hey jimB
Hey to anyone I missed.
tis a beautiful evening out, went for a walk and had some terriyaki - sauce. What a grand day.
A big shout out to you as well Eric!
Ryan sits with Please Note right now hoping for a comeback!
Jessica,
The irony for me is that I’m not as stuck on emphasizing eschatology as some.
I do still hold to a pre-mill, dispensational perspective. I’m just not interested in fighting or dividing over it. I see other issues in the christian life as far more important and would be seen by me as occupying till He comes. IMHO obsessing over prophecy is not occupying.
So, my mild protest was to push it a litle over the top to see if anyone would notice. LOL!
I think it looks cool, What font are you using? Did you use photoshop? Can you do the same thing with Fireworks 8? If a tree lands in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Are there really pocket elves you can ask questions and expect answers from?
Eric - are you still on here?
UGM….need a response dude!
Eric,
The font is called Downcome. It’s downloadable free from the Internet.
I think there is a PC version of the font available, although I downloaded for Mac.
I primarily used In Design (CS3) for the main layout. Elements from Photoshop and Illustrator were also imported into the design.
Overall the design is fairly simple. CCOF doesn’t have a very big budget and wanted me to limit time spent on the project.
I’v e never heard of Fireworks 8.
It all depends on how you define sound.
Sorry to disappoint, but there are no real pocket elves, …but your imaginary friends may give you imaginary answers.
And your imagination may be all the “real” you need!
This will be my last pastor’s conference. I have always dreaded them, but realized this is the last chance I will have to see some of these guys..
Eric,
You may not be the only one needing a pocket elf after all.
It looks like London could use a pocket elf (response dude).
Now London.
Don’t go reading too much into that.
Some puns are just too hard to resist.
i have no idea what you’re even talking about…
DMW,
Is that you posting incognito?
I say that because I know that DMW is a night owl often coming out to play, and those comments would make sense if it was indeed him.
DMW,
We could make you honorary Night Crew Pastor.
You could go from feeding sheep to herding cats!
AB - it’s really too bad I’m basically still ignoring you.
Not that you seem to notice….
I took an AWESOME Corel PainterX class today.
Not that we’ll be discussing it or anything. Just had to get that off my chest.
Sometimes being ignored can be liberating.
Not that this is one of those sometimes.
My wife told me I could only make that last comment if I included a winky.
Ok….well….happy liberation day!
I’m used to being ignored. That’s why I always bring along one of my extra personalities.
I can be my own audience if necessary. Want to see how that works?
I could go on for hours. All that’s required is no shame.
Very cool about the Corel class.
I’ve been using my wife’s laptop at home to blog on PP periodically.
That way she can monitor me.
Good night London.
I need to get some sleep. Big day tomorrow.
I have a long meeting tomorrow with a 98 year old lady who has written a large book of poetry that I’m doing the cover and internal layouts for.
No kidding, really!
The dear woman has outlivede 3 husbands and has collected quite a body of work1 She wants to leave a legacy for her kids, grandkids, great grandkids, and great, great grandkids. Plus, after 3 husbands quite an assortment of extended family.
Much of her work is quite good.
I guess she was a late, late bloomer.
“I’ve been using my wife’s laptop at home to blog on PP periodically.
That way she can monitor me.”
Yeah, that way she can check on you to make sure you’re not PPing too much.
Sorry. Couldn’t resist that pun
“DMW,
We could make you honorary Night Crew Pastor.
You could go from feeding sheep to herding cats!”
The idea is for DMW to get some rest not more aggravation
Hey guys,
I found this on another site and thought it was really good! So I wanted to spread the love here.
Cheers,
Truth Lover
The following checklist of cultic tendencies by Charles Lesser was published in the October, 1991 Spiritual Counterfeits Project newsletter (16:2, page 7). They are typical of a number of aberrational cultic groups and churches on the scene today.
IS YOUR CHURCH FREE FROM CULTIC TENDENCIES?
- A CHECKLIST FOR RESPONSIBLE CHRISTIANS -
Is your pastor fully accountable to a board of elders, presbyters, et cetera? Y / N
Is loyalty to Jesus and to one’s own calling placed before loyalty to pastor and church? Y / N
Does your pastor encourage questions and suggestions? Is he approachable? Y / N
Does your pastor give equal attention to all kinds of people in his congregation? Y / N
Does your pastor readily admit his errors? Y / N
Does your pastor avoid boasting or hinting at a “special anointing?” Y / N
Is your pastor truly humble? Y / N
Are the sermons based on clear Biblical truths, not on “original revelations” or ax-grinding? Y / N
Does your church interact with other churches? Y / N
Does your church staff avoid secrecy? Y / N
Is power shared in your church (rather than preempted by a hierarchy)? Y / N
Does your church see itself as just one organ of the Body of Christ, and not the main one? Y / N
Is your church truly friendly? Y / N
Does your church emphasize ministry to people rather than church “programs?” Y / N
Are especially needy people cared for lovingly in your church? Y / N
Are church members encouraged and loved even when they leave? Y / N
Are relationships with former members encouraged or allowed? Y / N
Do the pastor and congregation avoid attacking, and using as “object lessons,” former members or those who disagree? Y / N
Are families encouraged to stay together and spend time together? Y / N
Does your family worship together in the Sunday service (including children, at least for part of the service)? Y / N
Are you encouraged in your own calling? Y / N
Are pleas for money rare and unemotional? Y / N
Are your children happy to attend church? Y / N
Are you happy to bring unsaved friends to your church? Y / N
Is there a diversity of classes, races, dress styles, ages, and occupations in your church? Y / N
Are people encouraged to hear from God for themselves? Y / N
Is there a single behavior standard for all people in the church? Y / N
Are all types of people considered welcome at your church? Y / N
Is the joy of the Lord present in your church? Y / N
Are you free from fear in your church? Y / N
Do you think more about God and Jesus than you do about your pastor and church? Y / N
Does your pastor included (sic) himself in any calls for repentance and forgiveness? Y / N
Are you clear the pastors and elders never exaggerate or lie to make themselves look good? Y / N
Is your group encouraging of each other and free from gossip and rumoring? Y / N
Is there a humility of doctrine that points to the grace of God and His mercy for sinners? Y / N
Are you encouraged to serve in ministries or missions outside the local body? Y / N
Is there ever any pressure put upon members to give or lend money to leaders for their personal or business use (exclusive of church business or projects)? Y / N
Pretty good list, truthlover. I’d be interested in seeing a scriptural reference to each question.
My church faired well, but I don’t think the Apostle Paul would’ve done very well with “Alexander the coppersmith has done me much harm” and “I’ve handed such a one over to Satan that he may be taught not to blaspheme.”
So everyone, other than THIS website, what are some OTHER good Christian blogs? What is their focus?
Thanks a million!
JW,
Check the blogroll.
Hey everyone…
I’ve been insanely busy this week and literally have had no extra minutes to log on and check in. I keep logging on to the site and then have to go..so even though you may see me “here”…I most likely am working on my other webbrowser…
Anyway, we are still processing the job opportunity at the church we interviewed for and are in the “middle” on it. Can’t explain it. We aren’t excited about it, but also have no red flags. We would love prayer for discernment. My hubby has had 2 other churches show interest this week as well. In general, we just need prayer!!! We can discern if we are hesitant to dive into ministry again because of our past hurts, or if God has something else more suited for us. And…the infant baptism thing, Lutheran if you’re out there, I’d love your take on this.
I love you guys and would love to be around more. Once my kids are out of school and all of their evening events and work slows down I’ll try to at least say hi once a day.
Lots of Love PP Family! Shannon
Good to see you Shannon.
Shannon,
I will be praying for guidance.
Erunner,
You are a class act.
A 58 year old former pastor, just makes you think something had to go wrong..
I want something with the title Chief in it.
NWM,
like your set free biker buddy??
I’ll be looking for you, would like to meet in person.
Centy got your mail; look foward to seeing you.It would be good to see your traveling buddy too.
Vic,
I’m going to invite him along, I don’t know what his plans are yet……………..
NWM, all the Chiefs in this area run casinos if you get my drift.
NWM, praying for you bro. Transitions are hard even when it is the right thing done for the right reasons.
NWM,
I found somethingjust for you with “chief” in it.
http://www.pamelashanteau.com/pics/indian-chief-harley4.jpg
Hey AB! Do they let you come out to the conference?
Vic,
They like to keep me chained up in the dungeoun.
Actually Vic, many of my cohorts from The Word For Today will be there.
I have some pressing graphics projects they want me to focus on while they are gone.
I have made appearances at the conference in the past. Usually when someone forgot something and they needed it brought over!
Those times have been fun, seing as I know and do side projects for many of the pastors.
Yeah now that you bring that up forget chief — I just will just be the low man on the totem associate assistant to the assistant’s associate..
That okay NWM,
You’ll be right next to Jesus, since the lowest place of a servant is the place He chose.
NWM, you are Pastor Emeritus. What does emeritus mean BTW?
But associate assistant to the assistant associate, right next to Jesus? I scarce can take it in…
Besides doesn’t chief has something to do with an antique motorcycle of another brand?
Anne -
Trust me, I’m not overspiritualizing on this. Most people have to remind me I might be in a spiritual battle before I realize it…I’m usually pretty dense about these things.
What made is obvious to me yesterday was that no sooner had I hung up the phone with the person requesting a bus ticket (whom I just shared the gospel with), I got up to grab some stuff to go meet him & I received massive shocks in my foot where I periodically experience pain. The timing was too coincidental for me to label it coincidence.
In any case - I certainly wouldn’t try to make myself any more subject to spiritual battle than anyone else. To be quite honest, I believe more “lay” people (I dislike the phrase, but it works) experience more spiritual battles than they know about…they just don’t expect them because they haven’t been given an official title in the church fellowship.
Since all of us in the body of Christ has the same title (”saint”), I think it behooves all of us to be aware of the spiritual war taking place around us. Not in a Frank Peretti sort of way (ugh!), but just an awareness that the Bible affirms we have an enemy out there who’s looking for ways to devour us.
Tim gives some good practical spiritual counsel. If we just simply believe we are in a battle as the Bible describes and keep the armor of God furnished to us on we will do well and keep on over the course of time.
psalm62
May 31st, 2008 at 12:22 pm
NWM, you are Pastor Emeritus. What does emeritus mean BTW?
But associate assistant to the assistant associate, right next to Jesus? I scarce can take it in…
Besides doesn’t chief has something to do with an antique motorcycle of another brand?
—-
Chief is also a title that a certain Christian/cult leader liked who after Paul Crouch gave him advice to sue the Bastrds sued me — don’t much care for that chief. you can’t just imagine how much it hurt my feelings to have Paul Crouch call me a bastard on nation wide TV.
you can reach no where man at nowhereland@earthlink.net
making all his no where plans for nobody
John,
Did you get the files I sent?
Well again, they called Jesus that too, so, again, you are in good company.
It might have been more problematic if Crouch had called you friend.
Michael yes I did thanks — now what to do with them?
NWM/DMW
NWM,
Are you talking about Phil Aguilar? I had a run-in with that guy once. Don’t really want to talk about it, but just curious if that’s who you were speaking of.
John,
I was going to compile them according to topic, edit them, then print them out.
Christian/cult………….. been to that website.. it’s all about him.
NWM,
Crouch…………… I saw the clip. I’m sorry you went through that . However, I’d consider it a badge on honor if a charlatan like that called me a bastard on national TV.
no pink hair for my wife cent
Tim, please forgive my insensitivity to your particular situation, which was an opportunity for rejoicing more than nitpicking.
Porcupine Anne
The church I now attend Sorta
Is your pastor fully accountable to a board of elders, presbyters, et cetera? Y / N Yes he is
Is loyalty to Jesus and to one’s own calling placed before loyalty to pastor and church? Y / N Loyalty to Jesus is highest He tends to support people’s callings and offered counsel.
Does your pastor encourage questions and suggestions? Is he approachable? Y / N Yes and Yes
Does your pastor give equal attention to all kinds of people in his congregation? Y / N He usually gives more attention to the elderly, homeless, disabled and folks in recovery as well as focus on guests and new converts
Does your pastor readily admit his errors? Y / N yes as public accountability require which is prudent.
Does your pastor avoid boasting or hinting at a “special anointing?” Y / N He Boasts in Jesus, he does highlight other folks in the congregation or ministries that need assistance.
Is your pastor truly humble? Y / N Yes
Are the sermons based on clear Biblical truths, not on “original revelations” or ax-grinding? Y / N
Does your church interact with other churches? Y / N Yes
Does your church staff avoid secrecy? Y / N Yes but are prudent also fully disclose budgets
Is power shared in your church (rather than preempted by a hierarchy)? Y / N there is an extremely large board and group of elders both elected as well as extremely detailed bylaws.
Does your church see itself as just one organ of the Body of Christ, and not the main one? Y / N An organ
Is your church truly friendly? Y / N It tries
Does your church emphasize ministry to people rather than church “programs?” Y / N to people even at other churches if they do it better
Are especially needy people cared for lovingly in your church? Y / N Yes
Are church members encouraged and loved even when they leave? Y / N Yes not much is said about people whom leave they are not pointed at .
Are relationships with former members encouraged or allowed? Y / N no one talks about it much it is a personal choice
Do the pastor and congregation avoid attacking, and using as “object lessons,” former members or those who disagree? Y / N they dont attack much of anything to be honest.
Are families encouraged to stay together and spend time together? Y / N Yes
Does your family worship together in the Sunday service (including children, at least for part of the service)? Y / N No my family does not worship together.
Are you encouraged in your own calling? Y / N I have been but I reject out of hand any encouragement I will listen intently to criticism I try to politely avoid any encouragement or just walk away from it. Run if needed.
I did not want to add a more lengthy post. I hope you all have a very nice day.
Michael of any oe else in the know
“While that’s the official theme, the sub theme is one of CCOF trying to draw the company line about eschatology, the emergent church, and Rick Warren.”
I hope you are wrong on this. Is that just your take on the conf. or did you get some inside info? Is it too late to cancel my ticket?
I too have always liked the PP. I have always found the exchange of ideas and the different theological perspectives fun (although I have in the past grown weary of the reform and eschatological debates only because no side ever truly wins–but Im even becoming OK with that).
The dialogues here on the PP been part of what motivated me to further my theological education. And being involved in the academic environment (Western Seminary) has been the best thing that has happened to me as a pastor in 15 years.
My only regret is that I am not able to interact here as much as I used to.
Anne -
No problem at all…blessings to you!
Captain Kevin
May 31st, 2008 at 2:13 pm
NWM,
Are you talking about Phil Aguilar? I had a run-in with that guy once. Don’t really want to talk about it, but just curious if that’s who you were speaking of.
yeah — a little more than a run in.
you can read about it here http://www.rickross.com/reference/setfree/setfree2.html
she got the story right..
but I’m just a no where man now — making nowhere plans for somebody
centorian
May 31st, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Christian/cult………….. been to that website.. it’s all about him.
NWM,
Crouch…………… I saw the clip. I’m sorry you went through that . However, I’d consider it a badge on honor if a charlatan like that called me a bastard on national TV.
——————
I do consider it an honor to be called a bastard by Paul Crouch, you should have heard the phone calls he and his lovely wife made to be before that broadcast. I finally hung up on Jan. He was at least decent on the phone, but she went ballistic. I held the phone away from my ear and everyone in the office could hear every lovely word she called me..
BTW Chuck pulled his TV show from TBN in support of me..
NWM/DMW
checking to see if the picture of my new Harley is up yet
R. Abanes says,”I applaud Dewaay for his candor, honesty, integrity, and spirit of genuine care/concern, and openness to hearing what Warren actually believes theologically. I am hoping that many individuals will see that this is all little more than an issue of ministry philosophy, rather than the emergence of some bizarre Warren Smith-esk, conspiratorial, one-world, New Age religion with Warren playing the lead Pide Piper!”
I am a good friend of Pastor DeWaay and attend his church. Bob DeWaay’s position on Rick Warren has not changed. Bob Dewaay never hated Rick Warren, he had concerns about his teaching - a ministry philisophy that doesn’t preach the gospel or confess Christ. Bob’s concern about Rick Warren was and still is that Rick Warren does not preach the gospel, not that he doesn’t believe it. Here is a statement prepared by Pastor DeWaay concerning the issues raised in this blog. K. Jentoft
May 31, 2008
I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world and grow his movement. I still think that could still be true—I give him the benefit of the doubt.
At the Saddleback Church conference he was speaking of winning souls for Christ and talking about his father’s legacy of building churches and winning souls. More than likely he believes Baptist doctrine. But along the way he was derailed by reading the church growth theory of Donald McGavran. While in seminary I studied under a disciple of McGavran. McGavran’s book was required reading. His philosophy hinges on this idea: “people do not become Christian for theological reasons, but for sociological ones.”
Rick Warren believed McGavran and set out to study people to find out what makes them tick so he could get them into church — thus “Saddleback Sam.” Purpose Driven is a franchise system to multiply this idea into other churches. Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught. I don’t think Rick Warren changed his Baptist doctrine either; he just doesn’t allow it to determine what he teaches and what he does. When we met that is what I challenged him about.
So I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.
I will not allow myself to be pitted against any of Warren’s critics. I read Warren Smith’s book and spoke with him on the phone. He is a wonderful brother. The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church. But because he has publicly made statements besides his statement of faith that he believes there is a literal hell and that people without Christ will go there, I don’t believe Rick Warren is a true New Age believer, and neither does Warren Smith. Warren Smith simply says there are New Age implications to what Rick Warren is doing, and I agree with him.
Tomorrow morning I will make a statement clarifying what I mean when I said that we did not have theological disagreements in our meeting. Rick Warren did not disagree with my positions on doctrine in our meeting. But he did not comment on everything I said. Please read my book, because in it I point out that Rick Warren privately affirms orthodox Christian theology—he did so again in our presence. So this is not news worthy.
To set the record straight, for those who think I am suddenly okay with Rick Warren – I am not. I asked him to preach Christ and honor the idea of scripture alone – and I pointed out that he cannot have a “reformation” based on general revelation.
These are huge issues and he did not say he was going to change anything—but he did not disagree. Do Warren’s supporters really think that having an orthodox theology in private is all that God expects of a preacher? Do they think we should not hold Rick Warren accountable to sola scriptura? Do they think that we can have any old ministry philosophy even if doing so totally changes the definition of the church and her message from how the Bible defines them?
I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent, as I requested him to do in my book. That statement is posted at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/special/appeal.pdf Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.
Bob DeWaay
still have no ideal who DeWaay is……….
oooohhh Abaneesss!!
NWM,
Jan went ballistic………..wonder if that’s what caused here hair to turn pink……………
you’re new Harley?? that 96ci, six speed is great. very smooth at 90…………..
I love my bike.
hey, theo!
If you’re lurking, will ya let me take your bike out for a spin? please???………
NWM,
Jan went ballistic………..wonder if that’s what caused here hair to turn pink……………
—–
No her hair was pink before that. I think the way she was going on though, she probably had to have another face lift by the time she was done talking to me..:-)
ROFTL…………….nice
There is my bike — It’s called the new Dumpster model so us old guys don’t have to stop after scaring the !!!! out of ourselves
I was saved in 84 and met my then to be wife about 5 months later. One of the weirdest things as a new believer was having my wife point out Paul and Jan Crouch to me as they were shopping in South Coast Plaza. My wife worked in retail and said she saw them there all the time.
The hair was weird and colored then too. It was weird even by 1980’s standards of fashion.
I’ve rarely scare the !!!!! out of me on a bike (except when I go into a corner too fast), but I’ve plenty of other people scare me……
WOW! I just cleared my cache, what a hot bike John!
I’m still getting Hippie, used the side door……
YEah Cent, ya gotta clear your cache
walk me through it, Scott
are you using firefox?
yes
if so, Tools, Clear Private Data, uncheck everything except cache, and hit enter or save. Refresh your browser
it worked, thanks Scott.
sorry nwm, I didn’t see your new ride until now….
No prob centy
you can also hit CTRL, shift and R and it will clear your cache in FF
Open Letter and James Sundquist Response to Rick Warren and Erik Rees
Dear Rick Warren & Erik Rees,
I am in receipt of both of your invitations to your May 20-22, 2008 PDC Conference, enclosed at the end of this letter. I am compelled to respond after praying and seeking the multitude of Godly counsel.
I was a little surprised to finally hear from you years after I first confronted you by email but never heard back from you, or any time since both of my books on you were published. I was further surprised that you would send an invitation with such short notice to plan a trip there. You have required that I remain silent for three days before I am allowed to speak. The Apostle Paul did not teach that we are required to remain silent if what we are presented with is false teaching.
I am further surprised at this invitation because from your own lips you stated that you did not respond to detractors. You also would have to consider me a 21st Century enemy, since I am what you call a Fundamentalist Christian. If I am the false teacher, then you need to expose and rebuke me publicly before your church, this conference, and the church at large. But your must refute me from Scripture. You have invoked Matthew 5:44-46, positioning yourself as the victim being persecuted. You have rendered me the enemy with this quote. The Apostle Peter says it is of no credit if you are being persecuted and deserve the persecution. Which one of the Apostles and Prophets of old have ever presented the demon-possessed, the demonically-inspired, the homosexual activist, the atheist, the spiritists, the mystics, and the necromancers favorably to the people, as you have done inside as well as outside of your Purpose Driven Life book? The answer: none of them. And when did Jesus teach his Disciples to do anything like that? Same question applies to your interview with Charlie Rose, August 17, 2006, when you said you told Eric Sawyer, gay activist leader: “how can I help you get your message out?” And yet you invite Senator Obama to speak at your church, who celebrates and now endorses the California Supreme Court Decision making gay marriage legal, above the Word of the Living God. You have put the church in great peril by both your actions and appearance of evil. Jesus and his Apostles would never have countenanced your promotion of such an abomination. In your USA Today Interview 7/21/03, you stated that Mormonism was just another Christian denomination rather than a false religion, in which Mormon Doctrine, Jesus has a brother named Lucifer, easily refuted by John 3:16 which states that Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son. One of their baptism songs teach that you go back to be with God. Your gospel presented in the Ladies Home Journal is not The Gospel but another gospel! Former Roman Catholic priest Richard Bennett has proven that your Roman Catholic Purpose Driven teachings are apostate. The Apostle Paul preached Christ crucified in synagogues. Rick Warren preaches no gospel in synagogues.
You state that I do not know your motivation. To a great extent that is not relevant. I do not even know you personally; it is your teaching that I oppose publicly, for your teachings are public and damnable heresies! And a good tree does not produce corrupt fruit!
If you have read either of my books: Who’s Driving the Purpose Driven Church or Rick Warren’s Global Peace Plan vs. Scriptural Teachings on Peace about you, which are published by Southwest Radio Church, you would know what my motivations are, and that is to compare your teachings to Scripture as every good Berean must do, as well as to help bring the Balm of Gilead to the wounded saints in response to the host of calls and letters I continue to receive from churches throughout the world who have been split or destroyed by your teachings and unbiblical enforced covenants you have implemented.
I am perfectly ready and eager to meet with you publicly when I have received a letter on your letterhead that you are ready to repent publicly before your own congregation and the church at large for your extensive false teachings. Your letter must include making restitution to all of those saints whom you have left strewn and dismembered by the propeller of your Purpose-Driven Ship, and renounce your Jung-rooted occult-based Personality Profiling. Upon receipt of this letter,I will then stand with you before the public and rejoice with you. You should also go on Fox News and renounce the infomercials they have run in your behalf.
Speaking of invitations, I invite you and the members of your church to read my articles on your SHAPE program published in:
Sept 2007 Journal of Apologetics: Vol 10, California Biblical University and Seminary P.O. Box 7447, Orange, CA 92863, 1-800-41-TRUTH (1-800-418-7884) / http://www.cbusedu.org
&
A Critique of the Purpose-Driven Life, Part I & II, The Conservative Theological Journal Volume 9, No. 27, and Volume 9 no. 28, August, Sept, 2005, Tyndale Theological Seminary, http://www.conservativeonline.org
&
Listen to Dr. John MacArthur’s Audio Sermon 3:14 minute excerpt exposing the apostasy of Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Life book:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7165432835843972696&q=purpose driven&ei=g5ElSInhC4u05AL2vuzYCQ&hl=en
I am biblically justified and mandated to oppose you because you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing and a destroyer of the brethren, masquerading as a servant of righteousness.
Until the Lord grants you repentance, I am not willing to attend your conference this week or any of your Global Peace Plan training conferences, but will continue to oppose you by speaking and preaching publicly in writing and on the various national and international radio programs I frequent.
These Scriptures will also confirm why I will not attend your training conference:
Ephesians 5:11
II John 10
Titus 3:10
Galatians Chapter One
Book of Jude
Sincerely in Christ,
James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html
&
http://rock-to-salt.cephasministry.com/
OTHER SOURCES & AUTHORS WHO HAVE MARKED RICK WARREN AS AN APOSTATE FALSE TEACHER (not exhaustive):
Pastor Bob DeWaay Redefining Christianity, Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement, http://www.cicstore.org/servlet/the-1/Redefining-Christianity–dsh–Understanding/Detail
Warren Smith, Deceived on Purpose, http://www.eaec.org/bookstore/books/deceived_on_purpose.htm
Dr. Noah Hutchings, The Dark Side of the Purpose Driven Church, Southwest Radio Church, swrc.com
Paula & Jason, Tamara Hartzel, In the Name of Purpose, http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/
Loren Davis, The Purpose Driven Life is Unscriptural, http://www.lorendavis.com/articles_pdl-unscr.pdf
Roger Oakland, Faith Undone, Lighthousetrails.com
David Cloud, Purpose Driven or Scripture Driven, http://www.wayoflife.org (just released, not posted yet, but available)
Lynn & Sarah Leslie, Susan J. Conway,Pied Pipers of Purpose, http://www.discernment-ministries.com/Purpose_Driven.pdf
Lynn & Sarah Leslie, What is Transformation, http://www.newswithviews.com/Leslie/sarah.htm
Berit Kjos, Spirit Led or Purpose Driven, http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm &
Rick Warren’s Peace Plan and UN Goal, http://www.crossroad.to/araticle2/05/peace-un-3.htm
Jewel Grewe, Discernment Ministries, http://www.discernment-ministries.com/Purpose_Driven.pdf
Dave Hunt & T.A. McMahon, Audio Critique: Purpose Driven Life, http:www.bereancall.org
Richard Bennett, The Adulation of Man in The Purpose Driven Life, http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/rick_warren_purpose_driven.pdf &
The Purpose Driven Life: Demeaning the Very Nature of God, http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/rick_warren_purpose_driven_2.pdf
Pastor Gary Gilley, The Purpose-Driven Life: An Evaluation - Part 1, by Gary E. Gilley, http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/ Articles/read_articles.asp?ID=1
Ray Yungen, A Time of Departing, Lighthousetrails.com
Brian Flynn, Running Against the Wind, Lighthousetrails.com
Jacob Prasch, Moriel Ministries, http://www.moriel.org/
Philip Powell, Director, Contending Earnestly for the faith, Australia, http://www.christian-witness.org/docs/WarrenResources.doc
Ken Silva, Director, Christian Research Net, http://christianresearchnetwork.com
Paula (Qeylar) & Jason, Director, http://www.purposedrivel.com/
Susan Bertalotto, Simplicityinchrist.org
James Clifton, http://purposedrivendrivel.blogspot.com/
Sue Winter, Birds of a Feather, http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/James/BIRDSOFFEATHERPDF.pdf
Mike Corley, Resisting The Purpose Driven,Published March 25th, 2008 by Editor in Purpose Driven, Resisting The Purpose Driven on The Mike Corley Program
Not all of what is involved with the Purpose Driven Life movement is warm and fuzzy. On this program, Mike shares yet another tragic story of someone who dared to question the purpose driven lie.
Today, the testimony of two men in Virginia who resisted the 40 Days of Purpose in their church and the shocking,but sadly, not surprising results of their unwillingness to compromise and follow the PDL. Click here to listen now.
http://mcpaudio.wordpress.com/2008/0…urpose-driven/
Pastor Larry DeBruyn, Church on the Rise: Why I am not a Purpose-Driven Pastor, http://www.crosstalkamerica.com/shows/2008/01/why_i_am_not_a_purpose_driven.php
Deborah Dombroski, Lighthouse Trails Research, http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/researchtopics.htm
Ingrid Schleuter, Slice of Laodicea http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?cat=21 & Crosstalk, VCY America Radio, http://www.crosstalkamerica.com/mt/mt-search.cgi?search=Rick Warren
Sarah Leslie, Herescope, Discernment Research Group, http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/01/rick-warren-brian-mclaren-at-davos.html
Paul Proctor, News with Views, http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor114.htm
Professor Johan Malan, South Africa, Rick Warren Waters Down the Gospel, http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rick.htm
Dean Gotcher, The Church Growth, Emerging Church - Daiprax Agenda - The Diabolical Practices of ‘Ministers’ Across America Today by Dean Gotcher, Authority Research, 12/12/06
Orrel Steinkamp, Schuller Planted, Hybels Watered, Warren (Peter Drucker) Gives The Increase, The Plumbline, Volume 10, No. 3, November/December 2005 he cross ends up obscured. When the cross is obscured sinners go unsaved.
Dr. Robert Klenck, Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Life: A Rebuttal, http://www.johncoleman.org/Bob Klenck Page.htm
Mac Dominick, Rebuilding the Tower of Babel, http://www.cuttingedge,org
Mike Oppenheimer, A Global Peace Plan, http:www.letusreason.org/Poptea26.htm
Al Dager, Media Spotlight, http://www.mediaspotlight.org
William Alnor, Spiritual Counterfeits Project Resource List Concerning Rick Warren and the Purpose Drive Life , http://www.christian-witness.org/docs/WarrenResources.doc.
Pastor Perry Rockwood, The People’s Gospel Hour, Canada, http://www.tpgh.org/
**********
Centorian, all it would take to answer the quetion of who DeWaay is is a visit to his website and a little listening to some of his messages and Sunday School recordings.
Mr Broadway dancer, (the reason I use that is because it seems to be very important to your resume as a Christian leader, according to your website) I think there is a typo in this sentence “There is a lot of repenting that needs to take place at this point - and not on Warren’s part.”
Nowhere Man — did you ever watch the TV show?
As far as DeWaay goes, many were concerned that the statement he originally made was not strong enough. It seems now that he sees why — because Abanes and his ilk are running with it, thinking they have ‘got’ Chris and Bob. (re:Chris, the verdict is still out but he sure isn’t giving me anything to rejoice over).
I think they should release the audio of the meeting. If I understand it rightly, that seems to be what Bob has said he might do (clips however, not the whole thing).
oh one more KJentoft
I love pastor Dewaay but… this statement:
” Bob’s concern about Rick Warren was and still is that Rick Warren does not preach the gospel, not that he doesn’t believe it.”
Is really misleading. As I told Pastor Bob, people DO what they believe, no matter what they say when put on the spot. If Rick doesn’t preach the gospel, then he doesn’t believe it’s that important and/or doesn’t believe it. If he adds extra requirements (behaviors not mandated by Scripture in order to ‘belong’) then he is like the Judaizers in Galatians. MANY Christian denominations fall under this category today and it’s a crying shame. (e.g. requiring NO alcohol comsumption by leadership or the like - not that I favor drinking by any means). People who do this are in grave danger of departing from the truth. One can I suppose do it in ignorance for a while, but Rick has been warned again and again and I think the time for considering it ‘ignorance’ is long past.
Truth Lover - that is a good list
another one is at Chris Lawson’s list at Spiritual Research Network
http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/abusequestionnaire.html
It’s pretty long so I won’t post the list itself.
MY OPEN LETTER TO BOB DEWAAY IS COMING — today.
R. Abanes
PAULA — your response is coming too.
R. Abanes
DEAR PASTOR BOB DEWAAY,
It seems no coincidence that you have posted this letter at PP. Thank you for taking the time to more fully express yourself regarding Rick Warren. However, your most recent response seems a bit confusing. In all sincerity and candor, my impression is that you continue to hold to some unfortunate presuppositions, observations, and conclusions - all false. Moreover, you seem to want to give Warren, as you say, the “benefit of the doubt,” while at the same time not wanting to in any way say that people like Warren Smith, Tim Wirth, and others have grossly misrepresented Warren’s personal views, agenda, and connections to the so-called New Age. Their outrageous accusations is why so much hatred, slander, false accusations, and division as spread in the Body of Christ over the Warren issue.
_______________________
YOUR RESPONSE #1: MY THOUGHTS
In your initial response to your own church, you plainly stated, without reservation, the following: 1) “My conclusion is this: the chasm between Chris Rosebrough, and me, and Rick Warren that exists is based on ministry philosophy primarily. Privately, we agree on most doctrines”; and 2) “There were no differences of theology that I know of, other than we had a chasm in a difference in ministry philosophy.”
These are extraordinarily significant admissions for they clearly indicate at face value that you, Chris R., and Warren agree on the primary/essential doctrines that are advanced in the areas of theology, soteriology, and thanatology. These areas, of course, encompass the essentials of the faith as they relate to the identification of God, the way of salvation, and the afterlife. The importance of your statements here relates to a large portion of criticisms that have been leveled against Warren for not only believing, but also preaching FALSE DOCTRINES regarding all three of these areas — i.e., theology, soteriology, and thanatology.
To be more specific, it has been alleged by many critics who look to you as a key adviser/leader that Warren:
1) is a pantheist;
2) that he teaches salvation by works (rather than grace); and
3) that people embracing other religions can/will be saved in the afterlife.
It is by use of these false charges that many of Warren’s harshest critics have labeled him: a heretic, false deceiver, preacher of a false gospel, an advocate of no gospel, a New Age pluralist, a tool being used by Satan to bring about a one world religion, and a liar.
I would have thought that you might have discerned any of these things in your meeting with him. And yet, your initial statement simply reflected a disagreement over, as you stated so plainly, mostly “ministry philosophy.” For that I have applauded you because I agree 100%. But as you know, differences in ministry philosophy does not make someone a heretic or a false teacher or a New Ager. Correct?
_______________________
YOUR RESPONSE #2: MY THOUGHTS
Now, you have released another statement, no doubt in response to the cries of disbelief, anger, and concern coming from the ant-Warren camp. And in response, you seem to be attempting to assure them of your ongoing concerns regarding Rick Warren. I can certainly appreciate that. But I’d like to make a few comments and call your attention to some facts.
First, you state: “I wrote my book, Redefining Christianity, assuming that Rick Warren actually believes the Saddleback Church’s statement of faith, but that he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world. After this, you state this COULD be true, but you are willing to not hold rigidly to such a charge because you are willing to give Rick the “benefit of the doubt.”
Fair enough. But my question to you relates to the how you can even make your foundational charge to begin with — i.e., “he refuses to preach it because he wants to be popular with the world.” You’re saying that Warren actually has refused on an ongoing basis to actually “preach” the statement of faith presented by Saddleback? I would, in all sincerity, ask how you can make that charge given the fact that Warren has repeatedly called people to give their lives to Jesus Christ, repent, look to what Christ has done for them on the cross for their sins, and has spoken about the alternative to accepting Christ — i.e., an eternity separated from God (i.e., hell).
I ask that you to please read just my SMALL sampling of the countless places where/when Warren has preached on such topics and tell me how you can say he doesn’t preach Saddleback’s statement of faith
PLEASE SEE
Rick Warren Preaches Salvation
Saddleback Church: The Cross, Sin, Hell
Repentance and Rick Warren
Second, you continue to make the erroneous assertion about doctrine at Saddleback, stating: “Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement. The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught.”
This is absolutely UNTRUE. And as a brother in Christ, I ask that you correct this misperception and correct others as well. 1. Doctrine IS important. 2. Doctrine IS taught.
1. IN CONTEXT, all of the remarks Warren has made with regard to the so-called unimportance of doctrine relates directly to denominational distinctives ONLY! Such distinctive doctrines as eschatology, baptism, T.U.L.I.P., etc. etc. etc. do not matter to Warren as much as a) just seeing people get saved through the basic Gospel; and b) building a healthy church (no matter what denomination or what size).
2. IN TRUTH, doctrine is taught at Saddleback during home Bible studies, ministerial meetings (I personally taught doctrinal studies to the music ministry teams), and most importantly, during the FOUNDATIONS full doctrinal systematic theology study course given at Saddleback that covers the 11 core doctrines of Christianity, including God/Trinity, Jesus Christ, salvation/atonement, the afterlife, and the end times. I suggest you get a copy of the FOUNDATIONS systematic theology course. The course is very thorough and completely orthodox from a Southern Baptist perspective. Clearly, doctrine is both important and taught. I would ask that you amend your assertions to the contrary.
Third, you said: “I have not moved in my beliefs nor have I changed my position on any doctrines I have preached.” This comment was a bit confusing since I was unaware of anyone alleging that your doctrines had changed. I certainly made no assertion. So it seems an odd assertion to to make — UNLESS there were some critics who view Warren as holding non-Christian doctrines, and they were worried that your doctrines had changed to match his. This would make sense given their views that Warren does NOT hold to Christian beliefs. Is this what you were addressing? Wouldn’t it have been more productive to not only state that your doctrines have not changed, but that Warren’s doctrines have not changed either — i.e., that you are both in doctrinal agreement on the central tenets of Christianity (which is basically what you’ve already stated in your initial response).
Fourth, you allege: “The New Age implications are in Rick Warren’s movement and are helping lead toward a One World church.” I can certainly see why you’d feel this way from talking to Warren Smith and reading his book. Unfortunately, as I have demonstrated in several articles, Warren Smith is very adept at misrepresenting not only Warren’s views, but also in twisting his personal history, his motives, his associations, his influences and his P.E.A.C.E. Plan. Smith’s book Deceived On Purpose is built on half-truths, faulty research, guilt by association, word-play, and leaps of logic. Everything Smith analyzes is filtered through the lens of his past experiences of the New Age and the pain/suffering/trauma it caused him. I have no doubt he is sincere in his desire to keep others from enduring his sad experiences, but he’s going about it the wrong way — i.e., by causing unnecessary strife and division.
Fifth, you stated in your most recent letter, “I asked him to preach Christ.” But actually, in your initial comments to your church you also stated, “If Pastor Rick starts preaching Christ more than he does now, even that, I could rejoice in.” So which is it? Does he need to preach Christ? Or does he need to preach Christ “more than he does now”? Because these two statements say two different things. If he needs to START preaching Christ, that is one thing, which calls into question all kinds of serious issues. If he needs to start preaching Christ “more than he does now,” then that is a personal opinion of yours — and nothing more. I mean, how much would be enough for you? How many times must he say hell in every sermon? Twice? Three times? Ten times? How many times must he use the words “cross,” “substantiation,” “atonement,” “blood of the lamb,” or “forensic act of God” in order to be preaching Christ enough for you? I am not being flip or sarcastic here. These are real questions that we must discuss. Who is the Master and who is the servant. And who is telling who how to run their ministry or to preach? I only see in scripture the Gospel that is to be preached — and, indeed, MUST be preached. And that’s what’s going on at Saddleback. Warren doesn’t do it like you. You don’t do it like some Calvary Chapel pastors. And they don’t do it like a Lutheran minister. But the Gospel goes forth from all.
Sixth, you stated: “I challenge Rick Warren’s supporters to step up to the plate and demand that Rick Warren repent.” I would ask, with all due respect, repent EXACTLY of what, Bob. Repent EXACTLY of what? His views of the Trinity? That would be difficult because he his Trinitarian down the line. Repent of some heretical notion of salvation by works (which you know he doesn’t believe)? Repent of saying anyone can be saved through Buddha or Krishna (something else you know he doesn’t believe)? Repent of antinomianism, modalism, pantheism, polytheism? Repent of what?
Aren’t you actually saying that he needs to repent of his ministry philosophy here? As you so rightly explained on your initial statement to your church, Warren preaches the Gospel in an order reversed from your order? He tells people the benefits of living as a Christian, shows them how wonderful it can be, THEN tells them what the Gospel is & how salvation is received. You, however, reverse this (again, as you explained in your first response). So, is THAT what he needs to repent of? Where is THAT in the Bible?
Finally, you note: “Otherwise they have no business claiming that I agree with them.” Allow me to be very clear here. I have ALWAYS stated the following about Warren’s critics and their criticisms:
“Rick Warren fully embraces all of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. . . . The essential doctrines of Christianity date back to the oldest of doctrinal creeds that we possess, particularly The Apostles’ Creed. From that historical creed emerge the following beliefs: (1) human depravity, (2) Christ’s virgin birth, (3) Christ’s sinlessness, (4) Christ’s deity, (5) Christ’s humanity, (6) God’s unity, (7) God’s triunity, (8) the necessity of God’s grace,(9) the necessity of faith, (10) Christ’s atoning death, (11) Christ’s bodily resurrection, (12) Christ’s bodily ascension, (13) Christ’s present High Priestly service, and (14) Christ’s second coming, final judgment, and reign. Warren, who is a classic Southern Baptist (see the Baptist Faith & Message declaration by the Southern Baptist Convention), accepts all of these doctrines. Through is many teachings (and also through the spiritual maturity classes taught at Saddleback), it is clear that Warren holds to the historic, orthodox definitions/explanations of the Trinity, the full humanity/deity of Jesus Christ, the miraculous conception of Christ, the inherited sin nature of humanity, the atonement by Christ for fallen humanity via his shed blood on the cross, salvation by grace alone through faith alone, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the eventual return of Jesus (physically/visibly), and the inerrancy/infallibility of the the Bible.”
YOU STATED: “Privately, we agree on most doctrines” and ‘”There were no differences of theology that I know of.”
So you see, Bob, it was you who stated by your initial response to the church that you indeed agreed with me. I have NEVER given a full-blown endorsement of everything Rick Warren stands for, or everything he has ever said/done/taught. What I HAVE been saying all along is that far too many critics have gone out of their way to not just disagree with Warren’s ministry philosophy, but have desperately sought (through the use of lies, half-truths, deceptive implications, slanderous suggestions, and misinformation) to paint Warren as a heretical, non-Christian, New Ager whose doctrines/theology are completely incompatible with the faith. And Warren Smith is one of the worst examples — and I’ve released the documentation to prove it. Where is your correction of Smith’s “ministry philosophy” as a lay apologist (and others), which diverges sharply from the way scripture tells us to handle issues of discernment?
R. Abanes
Richard Abanes states, “And yet, your initial statement simply reflected a disagreement over, as you stated so plainly, mostly “ministry philosophy.” For that I have applauded you because I agree 100%. But as you know, differences in ministry philosophy does not make someone a heretic or a false teacher or a New Ager. Correct?”
No, it doesn’t necessarily make someone a heretic or false teacher, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are someone preaching the gospel either. It is very possible that the messages of different ministry philosophies are utterly incompatible. One could be truth and one could be false teaching. In other words, “ministry philosophy” is not necessarily a small item like whether a church sings hymns or not. Bob DeWaay’s book, “Redefining Christianity” begins with Chapter 1 titled “Rick Warren’s Ministry Philosophy.” The entire book then proves how this philosophy in unbiblical and inconsistent with evangelicalism.
Richard Abanes states: “doctrine is taught at Saddleback during home Bible studies, ministerial meetings…” I see nowhere that Bob DeWaay claim s that Rick Warren and Saddleback teach no doctrine at all in any venue, this is a straw man argument. The claim is that the gospel is not preached publicly to kings and rulers when Rick is given the opportunity to do so before crowds of people outside the church. What is preached is a “bait and switch” that leaves the real eternal problems unmentioned to fix what is passing away. The major problems facing humanity have been redefined from sin and the wrath of God to 5 temporal giants. The solution to these problems is not repenting and believing Christ, but working together to make the world a better place now. The result is that we have happy well fed, aids-free people enter eternity to face the wrath of God with their real problem that was not addressed – their sins and rebellion against their maker.
Rick Abanes says, “I only see in scripture the Gospel that is to be preached — and, indeed, MUST be preached. And that’s what’s going on at Saddleback. Warren doesn’t do it like you. You don’t do it like some Calvary Chapel pastors. And they don’t do it like a Lutheran minister. But the Gospel goes forth from all.”
Rick, I challenge you to go through the conference you just held at Saddleback last week on the PEACE plan and compile the complete teachings on the core of the gospel message, the part that is uniquely Christian. We are not talking about “good works” because pagans, atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims also do good works. Prove your claim that the gospel was preached publicly at your conference – I venture to predict that you will not need many bytes on this blog to print your findings. This is the claim that Bob DeWaay in making - “Christian” conferences held to solve the worlds problems without a focus on the most significant problem faced by humanity (sin) and God’s Christian solution to it - the gospel.
K Jentoft
This is such nonsense.
There is something seriously sick about the church today when we hate a man for using his abilities to do good all over the world.
Warren has planted hundreds of churches in horrible places while trying to touch peoples lives in a temporal manner at the same time.
I’m Reformed and miles away from Warren theologically and in terms of methodology, but I rejoice that he is trying to accomplish huge things for God.
K: No, it doesn’t necessarily make someone a heretic or false teacher, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are someone preaching the gospel either.
RA: Read the links I posted - that my friend is GOSPEL, and its coming from Rick Warren. He’s preached this same gospel year after year after year. I challenge you - READ THE LINKS - and you tell me where there is no Gospel.
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K: In other words, “ministry philosophy” is not necessarily a small item like whether a church sings hymns or not.
RA: Dewaay stated very simply, plainly, and concisely the basic bottom line when it comes to the differences in their ministry philosophy. As I stated in my open letter:
“As you so rightly explained on your initial statement to your church, Warren preaches the Gospel in an order reversed from your order? He tells people the benefits of living as a Christian, shows them how wonderful it can be, THEN tells them what the Gospel is & how salvation is received. You, however, reverse this (again, as you explained in your first response). So, is THAT what he needs to repent of? Where is THAT in the Bible?”
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K: The claim is that the gospel is not preached publicly to kings and rulers when Rick is given the opportunity to do so before crowds of people outside the church.
RA: Oh, oh, oh, okay. Well, now we’re getting to it. You want Warren to live his life like you do. Talk to people like you do. Witness like you do. Share his faith like you do. Do as you do. Or else, he’s not preaching the gospel. Really? Again, I ask: WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE?
Besides, what you stated is NOT what Dewaay stated. I quote him again: “The reason for that is that doctrine becomes unimportant because it is no longer taught.” My response was doctrine IS important, and doctrine IS taught. Dewaay offers no qualifications about kings, leaders, etc. etc. etc.
IN CONTEXT, Dewaay is talking about Warren’s interactions with other church leaders: ““Warren tells pastors that they do not have to change any doctrine to join his movement.”
Now, you’re even taking Dewaay out of context!
More to come in response to you………….
RAbanes
K: The major problems facing humanity have been redefined from sin and the wrath of God to 5 temporal giants. The solution to these problems is not repenting and believing Christ, but working together to make the world a better place now. The result is that we have happy well fed, aids-free people enter eternity to face the wrath of God with their real problem that was not addressed – their sins and rebellion against their maker.
RA: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And you have just demonstrated a fundamental (no pun intended) problem with Warren’s critics — they do not take the time to calmly, thoughtfully, and slowly read or listen to what he actually says. they are too eager to just quickly find something for which to condemn him. The entire PEACE plan is an EVANGELISM STRATEGY. You don’t get it!!!! The reason WHY Warren is going after his GLOBAL GIANTS is not only to relieve human suffering, but more importantly to REMOVE those things that he sees hindering the spread of the CHRISTIAN GOSPEL throughout the world. See?
I have said this over and over and over - so forgive me if I am a bit exasperated here, and more than a little frustrated. The P.E.A.C.E. PLAN is intended to remove those things that are hindering the spread of the Christian Gospel throughout the world. For example, if you seek to end illiteracy - suddenly how many millions of people can read a Bible? If you try to alleviate poverty, it enables people to look to other issues in their lives besides just worrying about how they’re going to survive through the next 24 hours. This is all in BLACK & WHITE in the plan, but no critics are even bothering to quote those parts of it. All they keep doing is screaming about how “E” for evangelism is not in the plan? You know why? Cause the WHOLE P.E.A.C.E. PLAN is an evangelism plan. Have you EVER seen any of these quotes noted by Warren’s critics:
1. These are the world’s biggest problems, affecting billions, not just millions, of people: spiritual emptiness, corrupt leadership, poverty, disease, and illiteracy. These five global giants ravage the lives of billions of people worldwide and all work together to constrain them and cut them off from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for their sins allowing them eternal hope and security” (P.E.A.C.E.).
READ IT AGAIN - “cut them off from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for their sins”
2. “These giants [spiritual emptiness, corrupt leadership, poverty, disease, and illiteracy] work together to constrain and prevent masses of people from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins allowing us eternal hope and security. . . . The only successful solution is the global Church of Jesus Christ.” (PEACE PLAN SUMMARY)
READ IT AGAIN - “work together to constrain and prevent masses of people from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins allowing us eternal hope and security”
K, how come no one quotes these things??? My feeling is: because they’re not interested in really finding out what’s going on - that would get in the way of attacking their chosen target.
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K: Rick, I challenge you to go through the conference you just held at Saddleback last week on the PEACE plan and compile the complete teachings on the core of the gospel message, the part that is uniquely Christian.
RA: This conference was a conference for church leaders and pastors. I would hope they were saved. I was unaware that personally invited pastors and church leaders from around the world needed to hear Warren tell them how to be saved. If so, I will be curious to see how many altar calls and Gospel messages are preached to the CC pastors this week so some of them can get saved.
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K: Prove your claim that the gospel was preached publicly at your conference
RA: Uhm, you just changed my claim, now didn’t you? That’s something else I have seen time and again.
R. Abanes
PAULA: Mr Broadway dancer, (the reason I use that is because it seems to be very important to your resume as a Christian leader, according to your website) I think there is a typo in this sentence “There is a lot of repenting that needs to take place at this point - and not on Warren’s part.”
RA: Let’s be honest with each other, mmmkay? I think that’s the best way to start — with open, honest, loving, and sincere communication.
You didn’t use the term “Mr. Broadway Dancer” here (or over at Chris R.’s blog) because it “seems to be very important” to me. You used it because you thought, for some reason, that it’d insulting to refer to my past career. I fail to see exactly why, so maybe you could explain that to everyone. But whatever the reason, it’s fairly -obvious you intended it as a snide, nasty, petty dig at me. For the record, it is not all that important to me as a “Christian leader,” which is obvious. (BTW, can you tell me where on my “resume” it appears on my website?) It is, however, a part of my past and who I am — and unliike you, some people find it interesting that God would lead a person like me out of that lifestyle and into a life of fulltime ministry. if you weren’t being so nasty about it, you might be able to see what kind of miracle it is. So, if you truly want to talk about these issues, we can do so. But if you want to just argue and take cheap shots, I’m not really intersted in that.
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PAULA: ….. because Abanes and his ilk are running with it, thinking they have ‘got’ Chris and Bob. (re:Chris, the verdict is still out but he sure isn’t giving me anything to rejoice over).
RA: I do not think I have GOTTEN anyone, least of all Dewaay or Chris R. And speaking of Chris R., the following respnse are to several of the comments you made over at his blog.
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PAULA: what is the gospel, just for reference? We need to agree on the gospel (i.e. the definition of how a person can attain salvation and why they must) before we say whether or not the gospel is being replaced or added to by the PEACE plan.
RA: The Gospel? What is the Gospel?
Rom. 10:9 - “….if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.”
1 John 5:1, 12-13 - “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is BORN OF GOD, and whoever loves the Father, loves the child born in Him. . . . He who has the Son, has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.
These passages are comfortingly clear — If you believe on Jesus (his life, death, resurrection for your sins, 1 Cor. 15:1), you are saved — period. And you always will be (see Rom 8:38-39).
There - the Gospel. And yes, this is what is preached at Saddleback by RIck Warren, and also what is taught in the systematic theology maturity course of study called FOUNDATIONS, which lays out the 11 core doctrines of the Christian faith, including: including God/Trinity, Jesus Christ, salvation/atonement, the afterlife, and the end times. I suggest you get a copy of the FOUNDATIONS systematic theology course. The course is very thorough and completely orthodox from a Southern Baptist perspective.
Good enough? Where is the problem?
And as for the PEACE PLAN, please see my above comments on what the PEACE PLAN actually is.
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PAULA: If the church does not teach and preach those doctrines, it’s just a piece of paper in a file cabinet or back of a hymnal somewhere. methodology betrays one’s REAL theology. People always DO what they really believe.
RA: Whew! Thank goodness Warren preaches what he believes. Thank you. I am glad we’re on the same page here and you agree with me. Oh, just for your files, you might want to download all of the quotes and statements from Warren where he does INDEED preach exactly what he believes, as noted above, on salvation.
Saddleback Church: The Cross, Sin, and Hell
Rick Warren Preaches Salvation
Repentance and Rick Warren
So, what’s the problem now?
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PAULA: I just can’t get over the fact that Jesus must have sinned by calling certain people vipers, whitewashed tombs, and sons of hell (etc). tsk tsk. All this while I thought he was sinless.
RA: Uhm, Paula, slight problem — they actually were vipers, whitewashed tombs, and sons of hell. See the problem. You’ve misidentified an enemy. Jesus didn’t make that mistake.
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PAULA: I knew from early on that sins as simple and commonplace as disobedience to my parents and using the Lord’s name in vain was enough to send me to hell justly. Then the story of Jesus stepping down from heaven, as a man, suffering pain humiliation rejection and crucifixion at the hands of sinful men would make me weep. If I had not known all that was for an undeserving person (myself) none of that story would have made sense …
RA: And so you translate YOUR frame of reference, and YOUR route to God, and YOUR experience onto everyone else — and if they’re frame of reference, route to Go, and experience doesn’t match yours, then that means they have somehow been short-changed of the truth???? How……..well, how……insensitive and narrow, imho.
RAbanes
Richard Abanes: This conference was a conference for church leaders and pastors. I would hope they were saved. I was unaware that personally invited pastors and church leaders from around the world needed to hear Warren tell them how to be saved. If so, I will be curious to see how many altar calls and Gospel messages are preached to the CC pastors this week so some of them can get saved.
This is the whole point. We don’t just preach the gospel to get saved. We preach the gospel and listen to it preached to act saved. The gospel itself is the means of grace, hearing and believing it leads to sanctification and good works result. This is the message of the apostles to those in the church. Jude introduces his epistle with, “Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” He was writing to Christians and the subject was the gospel and the truth once for all handed down to the saints. Inviting the world’s Christian leaders to a conference to promote the means to fix the world’s problems and have the “Christian” conference focus on something other than the gospel, by your own admission, this is the whole point of Bob DeWaay’s book. Neither the conference nor the mission of the conference is Christian. If you would just admit this there is no issue. Rename it a “Do Good Works” conference to save the world from the five giants that threaten to destroy it. In contrast, the real message of Christianity, is the gospel – valuable both to become saved and to grow in grace to act saved. I don’t oppose people doing good – I enjoy when even pagan people do good. I am glad when a pagan is kind to another human and humanity suffers less when this happens. I just don’t call that Christianity nor do I call a plan to promote “goodness” the fulfillment of the great commission, the purpose that God really has commanded us to fulfill. If you narrow the power of the gospel to only salvation and not sanctification you fall into something close to what the Galatians were doing, beginning with the spirit and trying to grow through works. The gospel is the power of God for salvation and sanctification and those who believe it cannot help doing good works as Christians have been doing for centuries. Rick Warren’s PEACE plan is not gospel-centric. His PEACE plan conferences are not gospel-centric. The teachings that are promoted at his PEACE plan conferences are not gospel-centric. Presumably, they are something else because the gospel is not preached there because people like you do not believe that the leaders that attend need to hear it, would benefit by hearing it or perhaps even want to hear it.
K Jentoft:
You said: “his is the whole point. We don’t just preach the gospel to get saved. We preach the gospel and listen to it preached to act saved.”
I believe what you are saying is as a result of salvation those saved will preach the gospel of Jesus to others. I believe the idea of “acting saved” is not what you really meant so I am clarifying it in my mind.
Now I also believe you are high against RW and believe he is teaching another Jesus or gospel message and is therefore a heretic. If I am incorrect in either of these please correct me. Thank you!
Now I believe the true church has demonstrated two roles in the NT. The first is the coming together for mutual teaching and exhortation so that all would come to the full knowledge of Jesus Christ. I believe the Ephesians 4 spells this one out very well. The second purpose of the church is to spread the gospel into the world as mentioned in Acts. Of course there are those who feel both of this purposes are the functions of only those who are so called and the rest just live lives which bring glory to God, this I don’t agree with.
Now the real issue is you don’t think RW does either of these but is redefining what the gospel is and how a believer should look and act. Personally I think you are throwing stones at the brethren.
Drew
And now I’d like to move on to James Sundquist, a man who at one time believed that I was a good, Bible-centered, Christ-honoring apologist because of the way I handled the issue of Harry Potter. But all I had to do was disagree with him about Rick Warren, and suddenly i was not only deceived, but also a deceiver.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Hello James.
It is unfortunate that our paths have parted in this way. But like you, I feel like I must stand for truth, which is something I feel you are not seeking at this point.
Instead, you have fallen into this idea that we are to pick targets and hunt/peck for phrases we can lift from people’s teachings and trust them to make them sound heretical. You’ve been engaged in doing this to Warren for years - how much time could have used dealing with other issues? This is not apologetics. This is not discernment. And with a sincere heart, I plead with you to reconsider the path you have chosen to take. It is the path of witch hunting.
I cannot correct, nor would I even attempt to correct, all of the ways you have misrepresented the teachings, beliefs, views, and plans or Rick Warren. So, let’s just deal with the issues at hand that raised in your post here:
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1. “You also would have to consider me a 21st Century enemy, since I am what you call a Fundamentalist Christian.”
Indeed, one of the threats to a peaceful society is a fundamentalist of any stripe: Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, atheistic, etc. etc. etc. And I am using that word “fundamentalist” in the way Warren has used it — i.e., to describe ANYONE of ANY religion who refuses to listen to others, but in their radical zeal, have closed their ears to truth, tolerance, love, kindness, understanding, and corrections; and who, in their blindness, are willing to harm others (verbally and sometimes physically) who do not agree with them on just about everything. By your own actions, you have placed yourself in this camp.
My use of the word “fundamentalist” here is, of course, use of the word in its sociological/cultural and pejorative sense — not in any theological sense. I’ll say that again, although I have a feeling it will not matter: I DO NOT REFER AT ALL TO YOUR DOCTRINAL CHRISTIAN BELIEFS.
Speaking theologically, I, too, am a fundamentalist, as are most of the people on this blog, as are any/all Christians who hold to the basic fundamentals of the faith. Warren is a fundamentalist as well — in this theological sense. But his statements against fundamentalists (sociological/cultural) has been twisted by his attackers like you who make it seem as if he has spoken out against fundamentalists (theological) and the fundamentals of the faith. But nothing could be further from the truth. To say otherwise, is a false accusation that goes against Warren’s own profession of faith, and the theological teachings of Saddleback Church.
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2. “If I am the false teacher, then you need to expose and rebuke me publicly before your church, this conference, and the church at large. ”
In your extremist way, you push everything too far — I’m not sure if you do this for effect, or for some other reason. No one has said, or is saying, you are a false teacher. But you are indeed mistaken on a good many things, and have erred in your attempts to be a discerning apologist. You seem to want to hear these corrections publicly, as the above indicates, so I am willing to share it publicly.
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3. Obama, gays, etc etc etc etc.
You, my friend, are dealing here in issues running far and wide across a complex spectrum of culture, politics, medicine, and social interaction. And in seeking to condemn Warren, you are mixing these categories with theology/doctrine in a most egregious way. For me to pick your notions apart would take far more space than would be appropriate here. Moreover, I don’t doubt that you are utterly set in your thinking with regard to such things, so in the end, spending a long time trying to get you to see another perspective would be fruitless.
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4. “Your gospel presented in the Ladies Home Journal is not The Gospel but another gospel!”
I suggest you read my perspective on this particular issue. See GILLEY #13 RESPONSE in my article Gary Gilley: Another Voice in the Chorus of Critic. But again, I doubt you will be able to accept another take on it, or another opinion as to why Warren wrote what he wrote.
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5. Roman Catholic……..
There are many acceptable views of Roman Catholicism within evangelicalism besides the “It’s the whore of Babylon Antichrist” view.
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6. “The Apostle Paul preached Christ crucified in synagogues. Rick Warren preaches no gospel in synagogues.”
I have posted this elsewhere, but I’ll post it again. I’m only aware of three times that RW has spoken at Jewish functions, as follows: Jan. 2006: Synagogue 3000; June 2006: Sinai Temple’s Friday Night Live; Dec. 2007 - Annual Reform Movement convention. I haven’t spoken to Rick about these appearances (much like I haven’t spoken to him about the billions of other places he has preached, taught, or done interviews). And, TBH, I’m not sure why he thought it best to speak at these events. What I DO know, however, is what he believes regarding salvation — i.e., it is through Jesus Christ alone. In apologtics/discernment, you do not throw out what is clear, in favor of what is obscure or gray. That is a bad way to do apologetics.
So, we have some very plain/bold statements from Warren on salvation, and many teachings from him in many places that make his views of salvation crystal clear (the most recent teachings being this year at Saddleback, see mp3 clips on my website). So, whatever he is doing with Jews is somehow going to fit into that paradigm of his — unless his paradigm has changed. But his paradigm has not changed.
Rick does everything for a reason. And if I were to make a guess, I would guess that he is somehow seeing it as a backdoor to Christian evangelism. A seriously subtle BACK DOOR since one of the most hostile communities to Christianity is Judaism. He might feel that if people can at least come from an atheistic worldview into a theistic worldview, then the next step is the Christian worldview. (There are a LOT of Jewish atheists out there who would be far more inclined to going back to synagogue, than going to a Christian church). Warren MIGHT be thinking that if he can get them to a synogogue, then maybe he can eventually get them into a church (or some Christian who they meet can get them into a church).
These are just my musings. But I think my thoughts are based on knowing Rick and how Rick does things. His over-arching reason for just about EVERYTHING is evangelism — which was something he inherited form his #1 mentor, his father, Jimmy Warren.
You don’t have to agree with this method. Disagreeing is fine, but taking that disagreement and extrapolating from Warren’s actions some notion that Warren is a heretic is not apologetics, nor is it discernment.
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7. “It is your teaching that I oppose publicly, for your teachings are public and damnable heresies!”
Sadly, James, you’re not even opposing his teachings. You’re opposing an invented person with invented teachings that you have created form your own mind, prejudices, and unskilled attempts at apologetics. Sorry to be blunt, but you above asked Warren to correct you publicly, and I am assuming you want the same honesty from me — although, no, I would not consider you a false teacher, since that is a title reserved for someone preaching a false gospel. But you are in sin - slander, dividing the Body of Christ, causing strife, and bearing false witness. I suggest you visit the links I gave above in my response to Pastor Bob. Those links, my friend, lead you to the Gospel teachings of Rick Warren. It is not heresy.
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8. “I am perfectly ready and eager to meet with you publicly when I have received a letter on your letterhead that you are ready to repent publicly before your own congregation and the church at large for your extensive false teachings.”
As I have said before - Yes, there is some MAJOR repenting that needs to take place, but it’s not Warren who needs to repent.
I know you might think you are defending the faith, but you are not. I leave you with these scriptures that I find applicable to your actions:
1. Scripture tells us lying will not be tolerated. It is an abomination God HATES (Prov. 6:17, 19). “You shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another” (Lev. 19:11).
“A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies” (Prov. 14:5). In this same passage that lists “a lying tongue” and “a false witness that speaketh lies,” we read that another thing God hates is “he that soweth discord among the brethren (see Prov. 6:19), which leads us to sin #2 I have seen — contention, strife, division. (BTW, according to the Wycliffe Bible Commentary, “sowing discord” actually means, “Literally, lets loose strife.”)
2. As for divisiveness, scripture forbids it, in the words of Paul, who declared: “But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another” (Gal. 5:15). And again, we read: “For ye are yet carnal: whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and division, are ye not carnal and walk as men?” (1 Cor. 3:3). The destructive nature of division, of course, is that it WEAKENS a house (see Mark 3:24-25). As Proverbs 16: 28 reads: “A perverse man spreads strife, and a slanderer separates intimate friends,” which leads us to sin #3, which has been rampant among online discerners — slander and and bearing false witness against another Christian.
3. Slander is something God really, really, really doesn’t like. And I would imagine he gets especially ticked off at slander when it happens to be about one of the shepherds leading the flock of God. The scriptures regarding bearing false witness and slander are many, even equating a “false witness” with deceit (see Prov. 12:17). Consider, too, the following verses:
”Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” (Ex. 23:1).
“Be not a witness against thy neighbor without cause; and deceive not with thy lips” (Prov. 24:28).
“[D]o not love perjury; for all these are what I hate, declares the LORD” (Zech 8:17).
“[H]e who spreads slander is a fool” (Prov. 10:18).
Judgment will one day come swiftly.
R. Abanes
Richard with all sincerity;
What does James Sundquist have to do with this “particular” discussion?
If you feel or sense that you are under an unfair attack or onslaught we would be happy to pray with you and for you.
VICT: What does James Sundquist have to do with this “particular” discussion?
RA: See above post by Sundquist, Jun 1st, 2008 at 5:07 am. Just responding to both he and Dewaay.
_______
VICT: If you feel or sense that you are under an unfair attack or onslaught we would be happy to pray with you and for you.
RA: Me?
NO. Not me. I’m fine. But thanks. These were just my weekend responses to posts made in the firestorm that blew over here from Chris Rosebrough’s blog.
RA
Richard, now I see his post. I did not see it the first time I went through.
The PP has had enough of it’s own firestorms and for the most part the faith of those who are around has been strengthened and purified by them as a result of the presence of Christ harnessing these firestorms for His glory.
So no problem if other firestorms jump the blog fire lines and land on another blog I guess.
Looking forward to meeting you at Efest.
Be back later today I hope.
Hi rich, hey Vic, sup Drew, hey Michael.
Still having those who curse the bretheren and spit on His blood at your heals eh. No wonder RW doesnt respond, why cast your pearls before swine?
I find the claim that CC is not end times obsessed patently absurd. Go into the CCCM Chapel Store and ask the tape numbers for CC tapes on the Trinity. Then ask for tapes on End Times. Or just limit it to the tapes on the Anti-Christ. Last time I looked (more than 10 years back) there were ZERO on the Trinity and more than TWENTY on the identity of the Antichrist.
That’s an end times cult if there ever was one.
Warren’s methodology is simple in a sense but profound in another. Find a need and meet it.
Rick went to a part of So Cal with yuppie families, made a profile of the typical resident of the area, and then engineered a church that met their needs. I’ve seen church after church fail for not following the same basic formula. An area changes and they fail to meet the needs of the new people in the area.
Same basic principles work anywhere that the church chooses to be relevant at. Sad that it happens in so few places.
k back to Constitutional law, WOOOTAGE what fun.
Rich, didnt see your response to coming up here and doing an outreach. I cant afford your ticket, or an appearance fee, but you can have the spare bedroom and ill buy meals LOL, we launch in 3 months.
Let me know k
Oddly enough, the references to prophecy in the Bible are much more numerous than almost any other topic.
The word “cult” isn’t appropriate in this discussion.
Dont think it will help Michael, the hate and vitriol from either tundra or the RW bashers wont go away. And sadly, like gnats on the backside of a Horse they are along for the ride. And all to often supported by those who call themselves of Christ.
Gotta wonder what the Lord thinks when these folk make entire ministries designed to tear down exactly what He has built, and have the audacity to do it in His name.
You brood of Vipers, what have you to do with the things of God.
Richard-I hope this isn’t too far off subject, but I have a question regarding what you wrote about slander.
Could you please explain what slander is, specifically. What I mean is, the Biblical definition.
I really don’t understand how one can live in this world or in the church without talking about others to other people. We all do it all the time.
For example, if we are having a hard time with someone, we usually will talk about it with a friend or a spouse or whatever.
So when does it cross the line into slander? Many pastors use the same argument about slander that you just used to quell any kind of questioning of their behavior.
So what is it, and, more importantly, what is it NOT?
Serious question.
“A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person’s reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media — for example, over the radio or on TV — it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience. ”
The only problem legally is you have to prove that the person knew what they said was a lie.
Biblically, we can expect slander, because Satan is busy defaming the saints and doing everything he can to stop the work of God through His people.
Ok, Eric. So slander is speaking a KNOWN lie really someone?
So..does that mean the guy who really BELIEVES what he is saying about another person is true, but it isn’t true, that it’s not slander?
And how do we make sure we aren’t slandering anyone when none among us know the full truth about people? (i.e. heart attitudes and stuff?)
, “Sorry–first statement of post should readOk, Eric. So slander is speaking a KNOWN lie against someone?
Well, it all depends on what your definition of the term is is lol.
In a court of law you have to prove that they knew before hand it was a lie. If they believe it to be true it would be hard to prove in a court of law it was slanderous.
Early on in my christian experience, I was exposed to many of the writings of C.S. Lewis.
This included many of the “Chronicles of Narnia” stories, his collected essays compiled on various subjects, and my favorite, “Mere Christianity”. It was this book that was influential in the conversion of Charles Colson.
Imagine my dismay when a few years ago, I googled C.S. Lewis and discovered that certain Christian watchdog organizations had labeled him a heretic.
Reasons included were:
• Because he was an Anglican
• Because he carried on an extra marital affair with an older woman
• Because he married a non christian Jewish woman.
• Because he rarely mentioned some of their favorite doctrines
• Because he smoked and drank
• Because he rarely tried to proselytize his friends
And on and on the lists went.
Sometimes I wonder if the only formation christians know for shooting in combat is the circle.
Eric..lol. Ah, Clintonspeak. Ain’t it beautiful?
AB, dadgumit, you had to come in here with reason and logic. You know those arent Christian terms.
Fine, Convict away. I repent of calling my brothers and sisters in Christ a brood of vipers, Gnats on a horses backside, and swine. I got caught up in the very thing I accused them of.
Lords blessings all, I will let the Eternal Judge of the Universe do his job and convict and pierce the hearts of those who have not had them hardened already.
May the Lord of Peace reign over this situation.
does anyone have a blanket copy of an Elder led Church constitution? Trying to rework ours from congregational to elder led, without making it a good old boys network. It is hard to word things so as not to give any one group total authority.
Any Presbyterians in the house?
Eric,
It wasn’t my intent to convict you friend.
I was just making some observations.
I don’t mind defending christian truths against error. And I have my own list of things I’ll fight to the death for.
I’ve just noticed that as I’ve grown my list keeps getting shorter and shorter.
I can’t figure out if that means I’m getting smarter or dumber!
LOL, the Holy Spirit has used you to temper me more than once bro. You dont even know your being used LOL, God is truly good.
It is a mystery to me why He chose any of us, we are such a fickle lot.
Drew saws: “Now I also believe you are high against RW and believe he is teaching another Jesus or gospel message and is therefore a heretic. If I am incorrect in either of these please correct me. Thank you!….Now the real issue is you don’t think RW does either of these (teaching and exhorting so that we come to the full knowledge of Christ, spread the gospel) but is redefining what the gospel is and how a believer should look and act. Personally I think you are throwing stones at the brethren.”
K Jentoft responds – I did not say that Rick Warren was either a heretic or preaching a different gospel. However, if you with to define the message preached and taught at the latest PEACE conference as “the gospel” then it would be a different gospel. In his post to me Richard Abanes inferred that the gospel wasn’t preached to the leaders at the PEACE conference because they were Christian leaders and already saved. I take Richard’s words at face value and give Rick Warren the benefit of the doubt and state simply that the true gospel wasn’t preached, instead of claiming that a different gospel was taught. It seems silly for you to accuse me of “throwing stones” at the brethren because I state, “Rick Warren’s PEACE plan is not gospel-centric. His PEACE plan conferences are not gospel-centric. The teachings that are promoted at his PEACE plan conferences are not gospel-centric. Presumably, they are something else because the gospel is not preached there because people like you do not believe that the leaders that attend need to hear it, would benefit by hearing it or perhaps even want to hear it.” Richard Abanes said as much himself. All I ask is that this movement or PEACE conference be called the secular endeavor that it is and remove the claim that it is “Christian” when it is not centered on the gospel, the message of Christ and what is uniquely Christian. It is the “redefining” of a secular endeavor to do good works, the same good works any pagan does as “Christian” that I have issue with. Christians can participate in secular works alongside pagans - but these works are not “Christian” unless the gospel is center which by Rick Abanes’ own admission the PEACE plan this last week was not. K Jentoft
***The major problems facing humanity have been redefined from sin and the wrath of God to 5 temporal giants. The solution to these problems is not repenting and believing Christ, but working together to make the world a better place now. The result is that we have happy well fed, aids-free people enter eternity to face the wrath of God with their real problem that was not addressed – their sins and rebellion against their maker.***
That is a very easy statement to make when you are well-fed, prosperous, disease-free, and without any need.
You mean like Job…
In another hundred years you will not care much about them either and only one problem will matter to you.
The one that wasn’t the center of the PEACE plan, the only real peace plan that will matter is whether you are to experieince God’s wrath or God’s peace. The solution to this problem didn’t make the top 5 nor was the PEACE conference centered on this, at least according to Richard Abanes.
Cash: Could you please explain what slander is, specifically. What I mean is, the Biblical definition.
RA: Sure. Coming……………. in another post.
______________
K: “Rick Warren’s PEACE plan is not gospel-centric. His PEACE plan conferences are not gospel-centric. . . . All I ask is that this movement or PEACE conference be called the secular endeavor that it is and remove the claim that it is “Christian” when it is not centered on the gospel, the message of Christ and what is uniquely Christian.
RA: Did you actually read anything I wrote about the PEACE PLAN being an evangelism strategy in total - or did you just ignore it all — or did you read it, but not understand it? This was all addressed.
________________
K: It is the “redefining” of a secular endeavor to do good works, the same good works any pagan does as “Christian” that I have issue with.
RA: THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS. Read what it’s about! Don’t keep repeating what you THINK it’s about or what you WANT it to be about or what it MUST be about so that Rick Warren remains a false teacher.
I’ll try it again for you ————-
1. These are the world’s biggest problems, affecting billions, not just millions, of people: spiritual emptiness, corrupt leadership, poverty, disease, and illiteracy. These five global giants ravage the lives of billions of people worldwide and all work together to constrain them and cut them off from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for their sins allowing them eternal hope and security” (P.E.A.C.E.).
READ IT AGAIN - “cut them off from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for their sins”
2. “These giants [spiritual emptiness, corrupt leadership, poverty, disease, and illiteracy] work together to constrain and prevent masses of people from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins allowing us eternal hope and security. . . . The only successful solution is the global Church of Jesus Christ.” (PEACE PLAN SUMMARY)
READ IT AGAIN - “work together to constrain and prevent masses of people from knowing the saving grace of a loving God who sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins allowing us eternal hope and security”
Why can’t you see this? I mean, really, what are you seeing when you read this?
_______________
K: …..but these works are not “Christian” unless the gospel is center which by Rick Abanes’ own admission the PEACE plan this last week was not.
RA: I feel like I’m going insane!!!
I never admitted anything like this!! The PEACE CONFERENCE was about running an international program and was a training ground for Christian Pastors. The purpose of the conference was not to take them through “Christianity 101: The Basics of What You Believe.” You….you can’t be serious.
slander: The biblical definition is a bit different than the legal definition, which Eric gave. According to scripture, the greek word for slander or slanderer is diabolos! Hmmmm, interesting. This is the Greek definition given by Vine’s Expositiry Dictionary:
“slanderous, accusing falsely” is used in 1 Tim 3:11, “where the reference is to those who are given to finding fault with the demeanor and conduct of others, and spreading their innuendos and criticisms in the church.”
They are also known as false accusers, and this same word is used of the Devil - who is the ultimate accuser of the brethren.
This is very closely linked to the Bible’s prohibition against sowing discord, as I noted above, which is another thing God hates is “he that soweth discord among the brethren (see Prov. 6:19), which leads us to sin #2 I have seen — contention, strife, division. (BTW, according to the Wycliffe Bible Commentary, “sowing discord” actually means, “Literally, lets loose strife.”)
Many of these Warren critics are CLEARLY guilty of the sin of slander because they continue to spread their false accusations even AFTER being corrected and the facts being presented.
For example, spreading that Warren is a pantheist when Warren has resoundingly condemned pantheism and is a trinitarian.
For example, spreading that I am seeking to blend/merge Christianity with other religions like Mormonism, when I have directly refuted Mormonism through 2 books and stated in no uncertain terms that Mormonism is a false religion incompatible with Christianity.
The list goes on and on and on.
Hope this helps.
RA
K: The solution to this problem didn’t make the top 5 nor was the PEACE conference centered on this, at least according to Richard Abanes.
RA: STOP it, K. Just stop doing this kind of stuff. I am really asking you to consider what you’re doing here. It’s not worth it. Jesus is not pleased.
Can’t we all just agree that the gospel should go hand in hand with a blanket and some food.
Isn’t that what scripture teaches.
Who is seriously advocating one at the expense of the other?
The gospel without aid could tend to be a gospel to closed ears.
The aid without the gospel is nice, but could indeed send some into a Christless eternity clothed and fed.
I mean what are we arguing about here?
But just throw another monkey wrench into all this.
God can use just the gospel by itself too.
He could also use the aid by itself with no gospel preached!
ALL,
Here is a PERFECT example of how people like Dave & Deborah Dombrowski twist truth in what seems like a DELIBERATE attempt to stir up trouble.
I found this statement on their website: “DeWaay made statements to his congregation about the meeting, which led Rick Warren’s chief apologist and defender, Richard Abanes, to make public statements saying that Bob DeWaay saw nothing wrong with Warren and his beliefs.”
If you read my statement above - it says NOTHING remotely similar to stating that Dewaay “saw nothing wrong with Warren and his beliefs.”
This is a travesty of truth. All you have to do is scroll up and you can see that what I did was quote Dewaay’s remarks about Warren’s theology/doctrine, and observe: “I applaud Dewaay for his candor, honesty, integrity, and spirit of genuine care/concern, and openness to hearing what Warren actually believes theologically.”
How in the world the D-Team turned this into me saying Dewaay suddenly “”saw nothing wrong with Warren and his beliefs” is beyond me. Guys, am I missing something here? What is it?
Are these people doing this deliberately?
Are they not reading carefully enough?
Is it some kind of spiritual darkness literally blinding their eyes to black & white words?
I am really kind of speechless at this point.
RAbanes
A Believer: I mean what are we arguing about here?
RA: I think the answer to that is very complex that involves a LOT of psychological, emotional, and mental issues - TBH. And, of course, some very serious spiritual issues as well.
K Jentoft:
Thank you for your response. I went to your web site and I believe I see is a man who is interested in combating false teaching. I also want to thank you for responding to my post.
I find no fault in what RW is doing.
Thanks!
Drew
After looking at the CC poster several times on this thread I have a question for the 30 somethings. How did those “Western” cut shirts become so popular?
Just wondering partner.
Richard,
I’m really asking all here if we can’t at least agree that the gospel should go hand in hand with aid if at all possible.
Is this really so hard?
We seem bent on arguing with each other over things we agree on, not making any allowances for differences in methodology.
And if methodology is so doggone important, make the case that yours is best biblically and then show mercy to others with different opinions.
That is of course unless your methodology involves kicking little old ladies who are worshipping the Lord in the head!
Rich,
It’s real simple.
If RW is a brother who just does things differently than some prefer, these people have no ministry.
They don’t teach, they don’t preach, and they know little about church history or theology.
They do know how to hate though and if they lose that edge they have no identity.
Officer Hoppy -
What did the judge say the LAST time you asked this??
“Is it too late to cancel my ticket?”
Thank you, Richard Abanes.
“But you are in sin - slander, dividing the Body of Christ, causing strife, and bearing false witness”
I am part of a fellowship who has been the recipient of Mr. Sundquist’s “slander, dividing the Body of Christ, causing strife, and bearing false witness”. He fueled a situation he knew nothing about and incited division with his inaccurate assessments. A great deal of harm was caused to relationships that most likely will never be repaired. By the grace of God things changed that needed to change but the accusations were false and many people were hurt by his misleading, twisted claims. This was a couple of years ago but I believe he referenced our situation in his commentary above and I do not appreciate this continuation of something laid to rest long ago.
RA, you are a man of peace and I thank you for calling him on his antics.
James Sundquist,
Dude, it doesnt do much for your case when alot of the links you provide are no longer there. Like not on this server type pages. When was the last time you checked those sites?
btw,
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THEY ARE GOING TO BE DOING A LIVE BLOG FROM THE PASTOR’S CONFERENCE…
“-)
RA -
I’m not aware of anyone doing a live blog this year. Last year, the SMP did daily summaries, but obviously that’s no longer available.
RA-you asked a question above that is very interesting to me. You asked, “Are they not reading carefully enough?”
I actually think that is an issue with a lot of people. Writers tend to be very precise with words. Writers assume people are actually reading what they write.
But most people do not read so precisely. They “Read Into” written statements in order to characterize the statements in favor of their viewpoint.
Richard,
Two that I know of:
Mike Macon, both on his personal blog and on Twitter
http://mikescape.wordpress.com/
http://twitter.com/mikemacon
And Corby Stephens
http://www.exchangechurch.com/blog/index.php
Dear James Sundquist,
I am not sure where you’re getting your information, but since you are posting here, and I cannot see any blog set up for you (yet), allow me to make a correction to a grievous error you make in your article….
RICK WARREN and his friends: “BIRDS OF A FEATHER…”
Under your subheading, “PEOPLE WHO INFLUENCE RICK WARREN DIRECTLY” you have me listed. Excuse me, but…. R_O_F_L!!!!
Let me be very clear and inform you of exactly how much influence I have with Rick Warren? — LESS THAN ZERO. I influence him NOT AT ALL. and to think otherwise is the height, the absolute pinnacle, of absurdity. Again, excuse me….ROFL! I am not laughing at you, per se, but rather at the the very thought of me influencing Rick Warren.
Here’s a few more errors, James.
___________
1. “Abanes wrote End-Time Visions: The Road to Armageddon? in 1998. In this book he lists Jim Jones, David Koresh, Timothy McVeigh, Jeanne Dixon and Louis Farrakhan as being in the same category as these brothers in the Lord: Hal Liindsey, Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson,
John Hagee, Grant Jeffrey and Noah Hutchings.”
UNTRUE. I never said these people were in the same category as the cult leaders you referenced.
___________
2. “[Abanes] wrongly trashes and misrepresents the godly men who are
supposed to be Rick’s brothers in the Lord. Now, would you believe that Richard serves part-time at Rick Warren’s church? And that Rick recommended that this book be published according to the publisher.”
First, I serve part-time where? I don’t serve part-time at Saddleback. I go to church there, and on occasion sing in the music ministry. So what are you talking about?
Second, Rick recommended WHAT according to WHO? That book was published through a New York publisher who has never spoken to Rick Warren in his life. Then, Broadman & Holman thought the book was so awesome, they purchased the paperback rights to the volume for $160,000 (as stated in Publisher’s Weekly). Again, what are you talking about?
___________
3. “One of these men, Noah Hutchings spoke out about this slander against him. And after successfully standing up for the truth and his ‘good name,’ Noah Hutchings reports that this mean-spirited book has since been withdrawn from publication and the rest of the stock has been ‘remaindered.’” “Williams Watkins, the editor who defended its original publication, has resigned. Thankfully the truth came out finally and that book was shut down.”
RA: Exactly how many books do you think published in 1998 have since gone out of print? Answer: A big number with lots of zeros. You might not be aware of this fact, but books — unless they are like Harry Potter or any such mega-seller — usually go out of print after a while (anywhere from 1-4 years).
But this was an interesting attempt to paint a scenario that does not exist. What you’re doing here is playing very very loose with facts and it’s dishonest. (anyone else beginning to see how these guys are operating with truth?).
As for Watkins, again we see you and what you are doing. William Watkins left Broadman & Holman for his own personal reasons, career choice, and business opportunities. No one shut down any book.
____________
5. [Bullet points 4, 5, 6]
RA: You have six bulleted points under my name. The three I address above, which are followed by three more. My question is: Why are bullets 4-6 even under my name since they have nothing to do with me? They concern Rick Warren and his views of the so-called unauthorized bio of him written by celebrity tabloid author George Mair. They have nothing to do with me whatsoever. Soooo, exactly why are they listed under my name?
R. Abanes
Rich,
Sundquist also believes that bi-polar disorder doesn’t exist.
The man could have blood on his hands, innocent blood shed because of his ignorance.
These are sad,cruel, people…
James Sundquist’s research…
“Weighed and Found Wanting”
Rich,
I appreciate your carefulness with which you investigate stuff.
Mr. Sundquist could use a few lessons.
Oy.
M: Sundquist also believes that bi-polar disorder doesn’t exist.
RA; Yeah, I saw that and felt a pang of anguish inside. At this point, some of this stuff can lead to deadly consequences - literally.
RA
Bi-Polar?
Did someone say Bi-polar?
http://www.komar.org/faq/churchill_polar_bear_tours/polar-bears-standing.jpg
Rich,
You can’t win with these people…they are closed to anything but what they want to hear.
We just pray that they have very small circles of influence.
M: Sundquist also believes that bi-polar disorder doesn’t exist.
That is terrible that this mindset exists. There is no excuse for that type of thinking with all of the resources we have at our disposal today. That type of thinking causes untold anguish for believers that need to be embraced by the church instead of being minimized in the most cruel of ways.
Erunner,
That’s why your voice is so important…
I wonder what those bears are discussing?
It looks like it may have been a real good joke.
The arguments many of Richard’s critics use remind me of the phrase “Because I said so!” It’s obvious they’re trying to discredit people rather than honestly address issues. Generated more by fear than intellect. Pity the body….with friends like those, who needs enemies?
Michael, I understand a little bit those who advocate treating these illnesses through the word and with prayer although I can’t agree with them. But to deny that bi-polar disorder doesn’t exist absolutely blows me away. I dare them to say cancer or diabetes doesn’t exist.
There is a friend of ours on the blog we pray for constantly who suffers with bi-polar disorder and if these folks had any clue of the damage they are inflicting on her and others in her situation, by the grace of God, maybe they would come to their senses. Why must we hurt our own? Especially those who need us the most. It’s heartbreaking.
E-Runner,
Did you mean to say “But to deny that bi-polar exists…”
To deny that it doesn’t exist would be to affirm that it does…..
Erunner,
As I write this someone who I have been involved with pastorally is on the streets because he couldn’t afford his medication and without medication he loses the ability to function in society.
He’ll get picked up by the police, get some medication, but another job has been lost and life will be even more overwhelming than before.
I despair over his future and those like Sundquist who would write his death warrant.
E-
How ’bout them bears!
AB, You are a keen proof reader! You know what I mean better than I do!! God bless! The bears were pretty cool! Were they the coca-cola bears?!
Michael, At times it seems we are fighting the wrong battles when there are so many in our midst who need and deserve the love and support of the local church and the Body of Christ as a whole.
Hopefully I will be able to find information to post about medication on my blog. I will ask around. If anyone already knows, please feel free to let me know.
JENNIE: It’s obvious they’re trying to discredit people rather than honestly address issues.
RA: You are absolutely correct. Tim Wirth is a perfect example of this. He goes around the internet desperately trying to catch me in lies to discredit what i say based on my so-called lack of character and integrity. And so he points out these so-called lies to people - only problem is that I go behind him and post my answer always showing exactly who’s lying *cough tim wirth*.
Does he ever apologize?
Does he ever retract what I’ve shown to be a lie?
You get one guess. (and yes, Tim, if you are lurking out there, please speak up and I will give examples).
RAbanes
Rich,
I really admire that you spend so much time discounting these idiotic “assertions.”
It reminds me of the old saying, “Don’t confuse me with the facts — my mind is already made up.”
E-
I’m not sure if those are the Coca cola bears.
….but I am feeling a bit inspired!
This from the Wiki:
“While the disorder affects people differently, individuals with bipolar disorder tend to be much more outgoing and daring than individuals without bipolar disorder. The disorder is also found in a large number of people involved in the arts. It is an ongoing study as to why many creative geniuses had bipolar disorder.”
Can you see the T-shirt with that image.?
http://www.komar.org/faq/churchill_polar_bear_tours/polar-bears-standing.jpg
“Bi-polar and proud of it!”
E, we could make millions and donate the money to mental health research!
We could also have fun wearing them to the Lighthouse Trails conference!
I don’t think I’m bi-polar, but I still want one of those shirts.
“We could also have fun wearing them to the Lighthouse Trails conference!”
Makes me wonder how many guys are wearing their Phoenix Preacher gear at the SPC!!
There is a woman who posts on my blog who is going through very difficult times with her bi-polar disorder and it upsets me that people would invalidate her as they do. Imagine being the family member of that person. It upsets me greatly and your wry sense of humor brings me back to earth! God bless!
Hey E,
Yeah, in no way did I want to minimize the seriousness of this issue.
…just trying to put some smiles into an otherwise grim discussion.
Captain,
I can’t look at that image without bustin’ up! Talk about capturing a moment.
Anyone who would deny the existence of bipolar…
Well, at that point, I’d no longer believe much if anything they asserted.
In this case, that’s not a problem.
AB, I know you wouldn’t minimize it at all. Smiles are always appreciated!
Erunner,
Invalidation is something that folks with mental illness and chronic disorders often have to put up with from others. For some folks, the invalidation is especially hurtful, such as folks with emotional
dysregulation and those with borderline personality disorder.
It saddens me greatly to say that Christians can be among the very worst.
Then we wonder why people don’t come back to our churches.
They must be “backslidden.”
Yeah, that’s it.
Lutheran, With God’s enabling, I pray the day comes when the church recognizes the wounded that sit quietly in their pews who suffer in silence as they battle mental illness. It’s to our shame that the one place a Christian should be cared for so much, in many instances does just the opposite. There’s a “mission field” in the pews throughout the nation and many of us don’t even realize it. I pray that begins to change. God bless!!
Tim Wirth is now deleting comments from his blog if you disagree with him or support Rich.
Amazing…
And speaking of Tim Wirth, here’s an interesting quote —
TIM WIRTH: Are there other faiths? Is there truth in other religions? . . . . There is no other faith’s or truth outside of Jesus Christ.
RA: There is NO other faiths at all? I’d be interesting in hearing exactly what Wirth labels other religious systems, none of which are based on scientific fact. No other faiths in the world exist? I can’t even understand the point he’s making - probably because it makes no sense.
And no truths at all exist in other religions? Hmmm, I wonder if Wirth considers these beliefs actual truths or not:
- Murder is wrong
- There is life after this life
- A divine Creator exists
- People shouldn’t steal or commit adultery
- We should seek to live peacefully with others
- People should treat others how they wish to be treated
Interesting.
RAbanes
I have stated before, and once again i emphaticaly state the I sometimes eat my ice cream with a fork.
I feel so much better now.
Thank you for listening, or reading or whatever.
Now please read my new report, why Tony Blair is the antichrist.
******REPORT********
He was friends with BOTH Bill Clinton AND Goerge HW Bush, he was a friend to all peoples.
Please if you want this important information to go out, donate to
Address edited
your completely tax deductible contribution will ensure further reports such as:
Dead people smell bad after 14 days in the sun
Fishing is good, if you like that sort of thing
And
Why do only crazy people plant churches.
Mods…there’s some comments here that need editing.
Which comments, Tim?
Looks like you or someone else got it. There was some profane language in it.
Cool. You reading 2008? Live in the NOW, man!
Blame it on the sinus infection. I knew it had me moving slow, but now it has me moving backwards through time.
Stupid sinus infection! This is all YOUR fault!! BEGONE FOUL SPIRIT!!
How was that?