The following photos are as close to a documented case of faith healing of an organic condition that I've ever encountered.
The healing occurred at the Lakeland meeting and this is the testimony of the healed.
“Ok…I was diagnosed with scoliosis when I was about 13 yrs old and they said the only way to straighten it would be surgery because my growth-plate was almost closed, leaving no option for a brace. It has been painful all of the time, and at times excrutiating. It never changed for the worse or better even through pregnancy, so the specialist said it was "completely stable" and "would never shift." There were times that I had so much pain I couldn't stand straight up. I tried physical therapy for awhile to combat the pain, but couldn't afford to keep it going. When we lived there,(name deleted) had a word that I would be healed from the inside out, resulting in the straightening of my back. On the 8th, as I watched the outpouring on tv God told me to take a picture because this was to bring about the healing that was prophesied over me a year before. My camera battery was dead, so I put it off for a few days. On the 11th, my dad called and said he was going to Lakeland and wanted to take my son (deleted). I said of course he could and he said he wanted to take me but knew I couldn't go with work and the kids. I said God would make a way and in one day, I had all of my shifts at work covered and childcare lined up for six days!!! I knew I had better obey God, and took a picture of my back the night before we left.
We flew out on the morning of the 13th! On Sunday (15th) I went up for prayer (just at the altar, not the stage…not from Todd) and A woman on the ministry team prayed for me. She said all things crooked will be made straight and laid hands on my stomach and back. I was slain in the spirit and she straightened my body out as I laid on the floor on my back and continued to pray for me. I stayed after she moved on and when the minister on stage yelled "fire" my body jumped and I began to laugh. He yelled "fire" again (praying for someone else this whole time) and I laughed so hard that the laugh went deep into my stomach, as I laughed, I felt my spine move! It didn't hurt and I wasn't even sure it really happened, but I started crying and laughing and then I felt my left ribcage lower to the floor! My left ribcage has never rested on the seat-back or floor and my left arm would never rest against my side, due to the curvature of my spine. So I knew it was real then and I cried and thanked God, Then I got up and went to my dad, who was already crying even though he couldn't see me. He said a pastor who had been sitting behind us had just given him a word of knowledge as encouragement. He said he could see God slowly twisting and moving my back into alignment…he did not know I had scoliosos and had never spoken to us before. I sat down and both sides of my back touched the seat-back!!! When I stand straight now, my left arm rests on my side!!! I have small amounts of pain in my muscles off and on, but it feels like they are sore from the change, there is NO bone or nerve pain whatsoever. I was able to give my testimony and show the pictures on stage on the 17th. I recieved this healing as a tool for us to use, God told me that. “
I have every reason to believe that these are true, unaltered photos and the testimony is true.
One thing we can say…God still heals.
Let's discuss…
I am happy for this dear lady.
Xenia,
That’s why we love you….
Whatever the theological implications we all can praise God that this woman has found relief from her pain.
Hallelujah!!!!
I certainly do believe that God heals today!
I have a friend whose son two weeks ago was doing sit-ups on the edge of a pool. He felt a horrible pain, one of his testicles disappeared into the pelvic cavity, a massive hernia. They took him to the emergency room in severe pain. They couldn’t do anything for him. They took him to 3 Urologists who all said he needed corrective surgery. However, warned of potential side effects. They kept praying as they had already anointed him with oil and laying on of hands.
A few days ago his Dad wrote me, the testicle dropped back into it’s normal position and there is NO pain! There’s an answer to prayer.
Praise God, but is it any less for me to thank God for the healing at the hands of and because of the minds of good chiropractors?
BTW I also thank God as David did for afflicting me as well though not as triumphantly when relieved of pain.
Scott,
I’ll join in praise, but no pictures, please.
Vic,
I love my chiropractor, but this case was not solvable by manipulation.
This appears to be divine healing of an incurable problem.
Michael! ROTFL!
vic,
I had a cortisone shot today for tendinitis but no chiropractic adjustment was possible on that back.. I think you know.
So here is the question everyone….
Who healed her?
Her neighbor told her a demon healed her… what say ye?
Michael, I don’t know where that story came to you from. However, could you put me in touch somehow? A friend’s son from the St. Petersburg Times in Tampa would love to have info. like that. He’s planning on a follow-up story. And I’m sure he’d love to be able to contact this ladies Doctor, confirming the pre-existing condition and subsequent disappearance of this condition. I would love to get this into his hands.
You know how to reach me.
Since the lady appears to be a genuine Christian, I beleve God healed her.
Since when are demons in the healing business??
And we must assume that the lady her prayer for her (it wasn’t TB, she said) was also a Christian.
Michael, yes I would agree but would have to say that Jesus inspired and then saw her faith.
Perhaps a healing service could be sought out by local pastors and leaders getting together from amongst various churches and seeking God for direction and wisdom on their own. Gifts of healing might be realized in a combined gathering or manifest at local church gatherings in a manner appropriate for each particular church and their liturgical personality
I agree with you that yes something is lacking on the local church level and my participation in faith: but yet I am challenged by thar rather than feeling condemned or driven to desperation to join a hocus pocus act.
hocus pocus??
Now this would be ironic….
Scott as the means of vindicating the Florida Outpouring…
Me n Skip n Scottie n Michael n Xenia and Todd onstage holding hands singing Kum Ba Yah !
Imagine…. John Lennon never had such courage…..
You know, I would really love to see a person missing a limb go to one of these “faith healers” and come back with a new arm, or missing an eye, come back with a new eye, or frankly, I’d love to see a person who has been dead for a couple days, dug up then raised out of a coffin alive. That would go a long way to convince me these are actual healings. Why is it always something like “scoliosis?” Kind of dull, really. Why not something really spectacular?
I also am happy for the woman. That must be so amazing for her–to suddenly be free from such an affliction.
I think God healed her.
It seems pretty clear that Todd Bentley had nothing to do with.
Praise God!
London: Hocus Pocus: The Todd Bentley traveling show.
“Perhaps a healing service could be sought out by local pastors and leaders getting together from amongst various churches and seeking God for direction and wisdom on their own. Gifts of healing might be realized in a combined gathering or manifest at local church gatherings in a manner appropriate for each particular church and their liturgical personality”
Amen….instead of complaining about how badly this is being done (and it is being done badly) in Lakeland, we should be gathering regularly to do it right.
Dread, now I wouldn’t go too far! LOL!
But then again, I do know what’s in your mind
Yeah, if it was me I would not join the song until Todd demonstrated full and complete accountability for his doctrines and actions along with a measureable and sustained repentance.
If he met the first requirement I might also require that I batize him as well.
Pastor McCain,
Healing from scoliosis is pretty spectacular.
My point here is that we have to deal with all the theological implications of these photos with as much vigor as the theological heresies of Bentley.
Frankly, I’m not convinced in any way that Bentley is regenerate.
The evidence to me suggests that he is demonized and I have no idea how to account for any good coming out of his meetings.
Having said that I believe Jesus has done at least one great work despite him.
I will say this sort of cynically. These meetings have been going on for over 90 days. Over 400,000 people have gone to Lakeland and this is the first credible documentation presented? Doesn’t that seem a little odd, especially in light of all the reported healings (?)
Scott,
Hold Bentley to his promise… he claims loudly to be gathering the documented evidence. Just because this is all we have access to does not mean this is all there is.
Restoring a missing limb…
Does anyone remember a Pastor Chuck tape where he talked about the little boy who lost the tip of his finger and Pastor Chuck prayed and the finger was made whole? Anyone else remember that?
Scott,
“Over 400,000 people have gone to Lakeland”
No, it’s the same 10,000 people who have gone 40 times each. It’s the same traveling TBN crowd.
No, I agree Dread. That’s why I want the evidence to forward to my friend’s son who is doing the story. I have NO problem giving glory to God on behalf of this young lady!
However, I will reiterate something I shared in the past, my wife was saved on an acid trip!
The Lord rocks. I am very happy for this woman.
I’m not convinced……………… but I will take this under consideration.
and I agree with Michael. I’m so sure Bentley is of the faith.
Centorian
Why not convinced…. what do you need?
Let’s see, at $25 bucks a head that’s $10 million in 3 months. Over 3 million a month.
If they have 30 people on staff including roadies that is $100,000 per month per person (after deducting room costs at the local Howard Johnson’s and meals at Applebees.
Not a bad ‘calling’
You do not get that kind of money at these meetings LexLuther
Dread, what do you think? Will this young lady be willing to provide the Doctor’s name, etc.?
The problem is that the Doctor’s are not allowed to provide ANY case history and in most cases under law, cannot even make a pronouncement of healing. Too many Attorney’s out there who would love to file a malpractice suit in the event things aren’t as they appear.
Darn!
Not even with access to the ATM machines?
If the healing is legitimate how can one not be happy for this woman? May we see more divine healings for the sick and afflicted among us.
Todd said they were averaging $5 a head, a night. However, that does not take into account all the tapes, books, cd’s and additional future revenues streams that will be created by this exposure for Todd.
What blows my mind is WHO is paying for all that air time???
Scott,
I know the woman….remember she has had this for 16 years. She long ago stopped getting treated for it because as you read above it was stable.
There are eyewitnesses to her back condition and you have the photo.
She believes she has a doctors record of the angles of her spine.
The testimony and pictures and eyewitnesses are all I know about so far.
Thanks, Dread.
Wow, hello Paul McCain
If you all thought me and Lutheran were weaklings, Paul McCain is the real deal Lutheran.
Here is the link to his blogs
http://cyberbrethren.typepad.com/cyberbrethren
http://bookofconcord.blogspot.com
I spoke to her today and will see her this weekend.
Her husband was fairly skeptical until NOW… he totally believes.
Is my last post moderated because I have 2 links?
Somebody is paying a fortune in satellite uplink fees…to do this every day for three hours is incredibly expensive.
Michael, that’s what I mean, it’s running into the millions.
MLD,
I almost bowed when I saw his name.
A very formidable apologist for confessional Lutheranism.
Seriously, he is awesome, even if he doesn’t think much of our lead article.
Now I have a question. I haven’t watched TB except on some YouTube clips. I thought GodTV was a website streaming this stuff.
So, my question is this - there’s a TV channel actually called GodTV?
Erunner observed: “May we see more divine healings for the sick and afflicted among us.” amen to that.
But isn’t it possible that God the Holy Spirit moved with healing among some faith-filled Believers in that unexpected (by us) way that He does at times? And then the devil said, “ok, I’ll just have to ramp up the show to the ridiculous as my counter move?”
MLD, They are also broadcasting on Direct TV, I believe.
I don’t believe TB is of God. You all already know what I think so there’s no need for me to say it again other than to say I agree with Michael. However, it looks like this lady was healed. This throws a wrench in our air-tight case against TB. Isn’t that just like the Lord, to throw us a curve ball when we are getting too sure of ourselves?
“Erunner observed: “May we see more divine healings for the sick and afflicted among us.”
Is God any less faithful if we don’t see any?
If God can use TB to heal, why doesn’t He use TB to raise the dead. It’s not any harder.
Scott,
I have a couple of cable channels - any chance that the Food Network might carry a couple of episodes?
Remember, it wasn’t TB who prayed for the lady, it was another woman.
MLD, maybe we should all be praying for God to heal TBentley from whatever ails him…is that harder??
MLD, did my comment sound contentious? I hope not…just pondering and trying to figure out where who is
After thinking about it, I have seen some chefs on the Food Network work miracles with chocolate cake that would make me believe in God if I wasn’t already a believer
psalm62,
“MLD, maybe we should all be praying for God to heal TBentley from whatever ails him…is that harder??”
Even God has limitations
***However, it looks like this lady was healed. This throws a wrench in our air-tight case against TB. Isn’t that just like the Lord, to throw us a curve ball when we are getting too sure of ourselves?***
I don’t see how this throws a wrench into the many cases against TB. I still think Deuteronomy 13:1-4 is applicable in the Bentley situation.
***If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.***
First off, Bentley didn’t have anything to do with this “miracle”, and, even if he did, it just means that God is testing His people to find out if they love Him with all their hearts and souls.
Jessica, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think TB healed this lady but she does appear to be healed so an explanation is required.
Personally (ahem) I think God has just shut our mouths thru Jessica’s Deuteronomy reference - at least it ought to quiet any troubled minds on this subject IMO
touche’ Jessica
So Jessica, are you saying that this lady was being tested to see if she loved God and by having her back healed it means she failed God’s test?
I wonder if first century conversations sounded this way…
There is precedent for seeing miracles done by someone that upsets the prevailing religious sensibilities.
John 9:16 says:
Then some of the Pharisees began to say, “This man is not from God, because he does not observe the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such miraculous signs?” Thus there was a division among them.
Dread, in the first century, Peter’s ’shadow’ healed the afflicted. Seen anyone pull that off lately?
Skip, Oh my gosh, once again, you’re comparing Bentley to Jesus? Please.
Praise God, and give Glory to His Name.
This is awesome Dredly, may the Lord recieve the Praise for what He has done here.
God is good, I could care less if He chose to heal her at Lakeland, or in the Gobi Desert, I just am awestruck at how much the Lord truly loves us, no matter where we are He in His time and for His glory, will do what He feels is best.
ay His name be praised forever
I think Jesus healed her, and He can use whomever He likes to accomplish it.
My question is this….
How do we discern these things in light of 2 Thessalonians 2 and especially 2 Thes. 2:9?
So, Dread, are you watching Todd tonight? What the haps? Give me a synopsis.
Here is my understanding of how Lakeland gets broadcast.
Some I know, some I am less sure about.
God TV is DirecTV channel 365.
I bought DirecTV about a year ago just so I could get God TV.
The leadership of God TV carries Lakeland at no charge to Lakeland or Todd.
They bumped paying customers because they had the clear leading of the Spirit to carry Lakeland.
They do this all the time, which is why the leaders of the ministries that they decide to broadcast for free - such as my dear friend Mike Bickle - just adore them.
My impression is that they put some conditions on the ministry being broadcast for free with respect to the way they can raise funds while on the air.
I send money every month to God TV, and so do a lot of people. As a contribution, not as a subscription or anything that gets me any rights.
That money pays the cost of airing the non-paid events that we see on God TV.
Evil men will try to map their own evil onto the intentions of others.
But this is a new paradigm.
MLD, you can read here about the explosion of God tv viewership since they started broadcasting from Lakeland.
http://www.earnedmedia.org/godtv0702.htm
“Evil men will try to map their own evil onto the intentions of others.”
Whoa, Skipper! Did you just call MLD, or me EVIL???
The money charge just does not stick to Todd Bentley. Too many people have known him and watched his life closely for too long. I realize that the nature of the Internet is such that you can make baseless, unsubstantiated accusations like that for free and at no risk to yourself.
But this one does not stick, so try something else.
The building costs $2500 per night. Obviously there are many other costs.
For a ministry to just open its books is not a trival thing. This is a ministry run by a 32-year-old who has a lot on his mind. He lives a very humble lifestyle. I am of the impression that he did let some Canadian newspaper into his books, and it decided that there was nothing untoward or extravagant to be found, but I cannot find the article.
Well, then Skip you shouldn’t make an unconfirmed and unsubstantiated report about something that supposedly happened with regards to ’some’ Canadian Newspaper that ’supposedly’ looked into their books and found nothing, now should you?
Can we at least come to a place where we can give God the Glory for what He has done and stop trying to discredit someone who had nothing to do with the God of the Universe, reaching down and touching His beloved Daughter.
Honestly, this Bentley guy has turned us all into a bunch of coyotes looking for a carcass to mangle. An yes Skip I do mean BOTH sides of this argument.
Praise the Lord that He still heals today, and may Hid name be praised forever.
And yes I know, if you dont like the TB stuff dont read it, but damn people. God Himself felt it was worth reaching out to His beloed daughter, and because of a freakish looking man who averts Gods glory we now do the same? Attributing this to Demons, or to not happening when the word of Dread and the Pictures speak for themselves.
You go on and eat your dead, but at least Give God the Glory for His movement on this child of His.
“Erunner observed: “May we see more divine healings for the sick and afflicted among us.”
MLD said:
“Is God any less faithful if we don’t see any?”
MLD, If God wasn’t to heal another person on earth my faith in Him would not change. I know too many people that are suffering and I have the desire to see them well. That’s why I pray for people, as I desire that God would heal them.
It was nice seeing you at E-Fest. God bless!
So, Skipper, you do the math, alright, you’re a pretty smart cookie. Todd, by his own admission (On Geraldo) said they bring in an average of $5.00 a head per night. At 10,000 a night, how much is that? $50,000 buks, right. How much is the nightly rental? How much are they paying for the tent? How much do they make in concessions? How much do they make in books, etc.? Well, you get my point.
What’s with the Koala Bear deal? I see a play on his name, but not him. Did he go rogue??
Eric, I take real umbrage to what you just wrote. I think you should back down a little and remember your rant last week, alrighty? No one is eating their dead here. Go back and read my previous statements regarding this girl.
Scott I am not refering to what I wrote last week about Todd Bentley, but thank you for reminding me. This however is not about Todd Bentley.
Neither did I mention you by name, nor refer to you in any way, I was refering to the tone of this thread, and that is all.
My views on Todd Bentley have NOTHING to do with God getting the Glory for Healing His daughter, if you took anything from my post other that we need to focus on God and stop attributing His works to anyone else then I was not clear enough.
Not sure how you took it as a defense of Todd Bentley, I can’t see that in any way in my post. I gave God the Glory He deserved and asked that we all do the same.
“So Jessica, are you saying that this lady was being tested to see if she loved God and by having her back healed it means she failed God’s test?”
I believe Jessica is not referring specifically to the woman who was healed. That event is isolated from the whole Todd Bentley nightly bag o whoppers story time.
Deuteronomy is referencing the test of God to those who would embrace a false prophet and wrong doctrinne rather than remain dilgently focused on living the truth contained in God’s Word.
Turning to the ways and words of a false prophet is considered by God as a lapse in love for Him.
I’ll weigh in here.
I think God healed this lady.
Sometimes God uses the Philistines to accomplish what His own won’t do…
The proper reaction to Bentley is to believe God to move in power in the local assembly as spoken of in the book of James.
I’m renewing my commitment to do that in my church.
I stand on what I have previously said:
All miraculous (organic) healings are of God, period. In the word even the false prophets are used to accomplish God’s desires and bring glory to Himself.
Remember the blind man from birth and when asked Jesus said he was blind to bring Glory to God.
These things don’t prove TB is teaching and preaching God’s word. They prove God is good and gracious to His creation. Now are we going to turn to Him through His son Jesus Christ or are we going to praise TB for standing an the stage acting like a lunatic?
What will it be Glory to the Father or write a check to Todd?
Skip whoever:
“For a ministry to just open its books is not a trival thing. This is a ministry run by a 32-year-old who has a lot on his mind. He lives a very humble lifestyle. I am of the impression that he did let some Canadian newspaper into his books, and it decided that there was nothing untoward or extravagant to be found, but I cannot find the article.”
I’ll buy this argument with one exception, TB has become the latest Christian rock star and I really don’t think it is about the money at all I think it is about the stage. Just my opinion and I have nothing to back it up with.
So I’ll just shut up and retract my thoughts.
Drew
Scott,
So how did they (GodTV) get the naming rights from God?
Maybe this is a true healing, maybe not. It does not change the fact that Todd Bentley is a freak. I watched about an hour of him today, don’t ask me why.
there is nothing biblical or godly that he is doing. If god is healing anyone, it is in spite of Todd. (IMHO)
My 2 cents:
Praise God & Hallelujah for healing this sister in Christ! All glory is His for His marvelous outpouring of His mercy and provision.
How does this reflect on TB? Quite frankly, it doesn’t. Healing is a move of God - the glory is His & He shares it with no other.
As I mentioned on other thread a few days back…even if *every* healing was documented true, that only addresses one of the many problems this outpouring has. He still has to answer for the charge of using violence in the name of Jesus. He still has to account for the hypnotic trance-like use of seeking “the glory.” And on it goes.
Praise God for the healing. May there be many more in all our churches!
I think one of the ‘Apostles’ told them it was alright!
All of the healings that Jesus did were to show that He was God. The healings that the Apostle’s performed were to validate their apostolic office.
If I remember correctly, there were no more healings in Jerusalem after Acts 9 and the number of healings in the rest of the Book of Acts sharply diminished throughout the remainder of the book.
So, what is the point of these manifestations? I think the Book of James alone gives us the manner of healing the sick -and it ain’t Lakeland.
That is what bothers me the most - we see no scriptural directive for these kinds of meetings. Hence, I will continue to mark them as false.
This is TERRIFIC! Praise God… who’s bentley again?
Hallelujah! Jesus heals!
MLD,
You sure you aren’t a Baptist? Sure sound like one of them thar’ cessationists types.
puzzletop
James 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Enough said, either mark Lakeland as a heretical venture or close it down. There is no Christian basis for this going on.
Don’t be too hard on him MLD.
After all he is an advocate of infantile bamism.
Well, I will just wait for someone to give me some NT directives for off site circus tent healing meetings - I mean besides all of the ones Paul and Peter and James held all over Asia minor (NOT!)
I’m also waiting for any NT justification for all of the public tongues speaking (without interpretation) in the view and presence of unbelievers who might think these guys are crazy!
MLD said
“All of the healings that Jesus did were to show that He was God. The healings that the Apostle’s performed were to validate their apostolic office.”
Were none healed because the Lord had compassion on them?
***So Jessica, are you saying that this lady was being tested to see if she loved God and by having her back healed it means she failed God’s test?***
Victorious answered pretty well for me.
I don’t think God was testing this woman specifically or only.
First off, her healing did not particularly involve Bentley.
But since her healing did occur at Bentley’s rave (or whatever you want to call it), some people might think it lends Bentley some sort of legitimacy. I don’t believe it does. It’s great that she was healed, and I am happy for her. But the fact that God worked that miracle in a false prophet’s gathering, does not change the fact that Bentley is, indeed, a false prophet. And people who see this woman’s healing are going to be faced with a decision: will they respond by honoring God and following God or will they respond by honoring Bentley and pursuing his angels and the false god he worships at his gatherings?
It occurs to me that my immune system is a miracle of healing and the grace of God and for thousands of years He was the only one who knew He was doing it…that makes me very old, doesn’t it?
It’s my bedtime
God keep
Jessica,
Amen…
I took care of one lady whose shoulder touched her hip. Basically she was a circle, blind, and in constant chronic excruciating pain. Another guy was folded in half his head sat on his back, another lady’s head was almost as big as her trunk, arms so contracted that the bones almost went through the skin etc. Now I prayed for these folks, and saw healing in a spiritual way. Usually it came in the way of a calm voice a cup of water so to speak. I use to spend hours talking, laughing pushing folks in their wheel chair out in the cool air etc.
I share this with great reluctance to be honest, the responses I have gotten in faith communities was frankly painful. Basically it was explained to me that some of these folks are not regenerate (puke) or I dont have enough faith (I can agree with that). Seeing this for so many years and trying so hard to make life better does take a toll, it should not and it is a deep seated character flaw on my part that it does take a toll.
Personally I think its all the politics involved in ministry, I will admit to being childish and rather dense, no, stupid when it comes to this stuff but it is so hard to just help when one has to play duck and cover all the time. As for the Young Lady I am happy truly for her. I have watched TB a few times, I even got alot out of listening to some of what he had to say.
Rev. Paul T. McCain,
Visiting your site over the past few months has given me a new love for Bach.
Blessings
***Seeing this for so many years and trying so hard to make life better does take a toll, it should not and it is a deep seated character flaw on my part that it does take a toll.***
Actually, I think you’d probably be a pretty weird person if it didn’t take a toll.
Michael,
Is my last post to Linea in moderation? I have had 3 disappear today. Did I forget how to hit send?
***Is my last post to Linea in moderation? I have had 3 disappear today. Did I forget how to hit send?***
Obviously, MLD, you have no faith and you’re unregenerate.
Well, the fireworks have finally ended (for the most part), so I can now go to bed. Good night, all. And Huzzah for Independence Day!
MLD,
I don’t see anything stuck…
MLD,
That’s what happens when you don’t repent before taking Holy Communion!
Rev. McCain,
Welcome to PP.
I’m not worthy!
I’m not worthy!
OK, the women got me tonight!
Linnea,
This is what I tried to say in the disappearing post.
Of course Jesus did things out of compassion for people. But that was not His purpose. Everything He did was to fulfill prophecy and show that He was God.
When Jesus said that He was the Good Shepherd, that was not to announce that someone was now there to take care of them. He was announcing that He was The Good Shepherd of Israel as was stated in psalm 23 and Jeremiah 17:16.
Let’s put it this way, he never did it to be a show.
Are you their only option?
OB,
This is their lucky night
And, Jesus did not seek publicity, nor money.
Dread, could you please contact this woman and ask her if she can obtain x-rays of her condition from 16 years ago and x-rays of her spine after she attended Lakeland? I know that’s probably a hassle, however, it would sure put my mind to rest and really make my faith soar, I think.
I just finished talking to mr. know-it-all here at my house today and he told me that he doesn’t believe in the sign gifts but that he does believe in miracles. I think his MacArthur Study Bible allows for that.
I am curious if that is the position of some here. In other words. Bentley is a fraud and does not have the gift of healing but that God in spite of whoever is doing the talking decided to fix that girl’s spine. Or.. Bentley possess the gift of healing and by his faith the girl was healed by God for His purposes.
Either way you have a healed spine and a happy girl. So is it the former or the latter?
Imagine all the people who are truly sick and suffering with terrible pain and/or disease; or having someone you loved terminally ill or in extreme pain. You would so much want to believe and try anything to be healed.
MLD,
I think the girls all left when they saw your outfit!
http://www.broadway.com/site_images/YF11-applegate.jpg
Please,
I do not know what old medical records exist. Do you believe the pictures…
Here is the thing… one of my church leaders (a lady) saw her bare back and knows for sure the curvature was there a year ago.
She wept when she saw the pictures I obtained. She will see the lady again this weekend. And she will see that the woman has no curvature in the spine… She told me today she is completely pain free for the first time in memory.
If we showed you xrays someone would wonder if we falsified that.
I mean at some point you have to believe that people have character and will tell the truth. I do understand your struggle.
If this proves false I will be the first to report it. Truth matters more than good stories.
OB,
I thought my outfit was a chick magnet.
Puzz,
I believe God heals today and he tells us how. I posted James 5.
Bentley is not an elder in any church I know and people shouldn’t be looking outside of their local body.
I don’t know of any church that wouldn’t pray for a healing for their members - even the Baptists.
If someone I loved was living in extreme pain and suffering, given no hope, and this guy came to town preaching the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, claiming to have God’s power to heal—I would go to ask for healing and prayer. My eyes would be on Jesus.
Dread, today, most people would not believe such a healing could happen. A person may change their mind if they were the one sick, or a loved one.
MLD.
I think it’s the Jack Purcells that melt their heart.
http://caliroots.com/data/product/images/470920080121102814677121_M.jpg
I even got me a pair of them.
Mr Dread, I have written to the National Scoliosis Foundation about this. This is such a fantastic story, I am sure they will be eager to follow up on this from a medical perspective. I included the photos and her testimony. If they contact me and show interest in following up on this young lady, will you allow me to contact you through Michael Newnham to make arrangements for any contact they may want to make with her? This story, if true, should be shouted from the roof tops, amen? We need to do EVERYTHING we can do to confirm this, so as to remove all skeptics objections and truly give glory to God. Thank you for your patience.
It will be up to her.
Thank you. I would also think that someone doing a journalistic investigative story on this would be very happy to include this awesome testimony in their report as well. I believe I’ll make a couple of calls to Folks I know. This would be a tremendous scoop for them, as well as an opportunity for her to glorify the Lord through her testimony before unbelievers!
Mark 16:15-18
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe; in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Matthew 10:1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
7 As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near, Heal the sick,raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons.
Freely you have received, freely give.
Hi everyone,
I haven’t watched God.TV but I really want to now just because of all of the discussion here about Todd Bentley. But I did just read this article online from MSNBC, and it had a number of people who blogged on it below the article stating that they had been there and had witnessed all of these people get healed and that it was really REAL! Here is the link: http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/29/1075189.aspx
Anyway, I don’t know if anyone on this thread has ever read Smith Wiggleworth, but he was a Bible believing faith healer whose prayers healed many people and there were even reports of people being raised from the dead. But he always gave glory to Jesus Christ. Is Todd Bentley giving the glory to Jesus? Just wondering.
Solus,
Those things did happen in the early Apostolic era. As I said they were used to validate the office of the Apostles in the early going to help them get establish.
The healings stopped (at least being recorded i Jerusalem by chapter 9 and were at a near end by the end of the Book of Acts.
Note that when Timothy was ill, Paul told him to guzzle some wine as medicine. Could Paul not hook Timothy up with some traveling healer?
Also, Paul himself when fighting his own affliction, why didn’t he go to a healer (he could have manufactured the circus tent to the healing meetings.) But no, there was no healing for Paul.
If you look in the Epistles, where we get all of our NT directives on everything church and Christian, the only directive for healing is to go to your local elders, have them anoint you with oil and pray for a healing.
James could have amended his epistle to say “or go find the traveling shaman and be healed.”
If this is true I’m really stoked for this lady. I don’t think the question has ever been, “can or does God heal?” For me the question has been, is this event a move of God or the manipulation of men?
It does seem odd that this is the only verified miracle…like Pastor McCain I often wonder why these healing crusades never produce really spectacular miracles.
wait…I think my leg is growing.
Koala,
Wouldn’t that be funny if your 2 legs were the same length, but you told TB one was shorter and he healed you? Oh wait, now one leg would really be longer than the other
“Freely you have received, freely give.” you know the freely give part I ate up when I first became a “christian”, for some reason doing that really seems to tick people off in general. Maybe its the way I do it, maybe I hover to much, help to much etc. I try to be extremely careful now, measure the parameters, assess etc. I think this is often true of new Christians, they get excited and get so full of Passion etc that it makes them annoying at least that seems to have been my problem. The other part I never understood, when I would help, I E freely give, my motives were almost always suspect which made people look sideways at me. That is not true in the world but in the faith community it seem to be rather normal.
By the way, I also have scoliosis, just about as bad as this lady’s was before she was healed. I am really happy for her because it is a drag. Mine does not hurt, but it is disfiguring and hideous, and as I age, it will slowly get worse. What it can do is cause difficulty with breathing, as the ribcage becomes so deformed that it presses against the lungs.
I once went for healing at the Vineyard for this, but it just didn’t happen. I always have felt that it was just my thorn in my flesh…and perhaps the Lord healed this lady for a specific reason. But if it ever happened to me, I’d be calling the newspapers and television stations and broadcasting it everywhere because it is truly a sign of God’s compassion and care…Praise God. And God, forgive me for being envious of her!
Can someone please link to the “healing ranking heirarchy” chart that you guys are referring to so I can understand which healings of God are spectacular, which are fantastic and which ones are just plain old common?
MLD,
My sin nature could think of a million things I would love to do to mess with TB and his minions.
But if he’s going to punch and kick me then it’s not worth it
Cancer, brain tumors, multiple sclerosis,growing a limb: “SPECTACULAR”
Scoliosis: “FANTASTIC”
Common cold: “COMMON”
But if our Lord does any of them, they are all worthy to be praised.
Martin Luther’s Disciple,
When Jesus gave the Great Commission He instructed His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (all nations) … all over the place … baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything He commanded.
MLD, that couldn’t be stopped… how would you stop that command? It has spread like a wild fire. Why would healing stop?
Perhaps God didn’t want Paul and others healed, just like today. Some are healed and others are not, and we will never have those answers until we get to heaven. Does that mean disciples/pastors/people with gifts (or people with specials gifts from God) do not heal?
My pastor does have a healing service, which I love. I understand what you are saying, but I find it hard to believe God does not instill His power into some people to heal now and then.
But, honestly, even if God does do this, no man today would believe it. Just like they didn’t believe Jesus could do the things He did during His life/ministry on earth. That is what saddens me.
I think what happened for this lady was fantastic but I also think a person learning to walk using their new prosthetic is fantastic as well. I think God works wonders everyday.
Mld-
Paul did go to the Healer, and He told him His grace was sufficient.
The Location of this healing isn’t spectacular, the woman prayed for Healing, it was within Gods sovereign will to heal her, God could care less if Todd Bentley is in the room, it is His will and He did it.
Would we all be as worried if the woman was prayed over in the pickle aisle at Wal mart and the Lord chose in His Divine Providence to heal the disease?
Solus,
You may have missed my earlier posting - just as your pastor does, prayer for healings should take place in the local church.
I do not deny healings - I deny the traveling healer - all of them.
James 5:13-16 Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Eric,
“Would we all be as worried if the woman was prayed over in the pickle aisle at Wal mart and the Lord chose in His Divine Providence to heal the disease?”
It would be a more holy setting than Lakeland.
It’s all common to God, in that nothing is difficult for him.
The point here is, why do most of these faith healings involve things that are really hard to verify and see.
How do we really know if that lady had cancer?
How can you verify if that guys leg really grew?
Do we really know if that person was actually confined to a wheel chair previously?
I would love to see these guys visit sick kids in children’s hospitals.
Now if the Lord could just heal that dirty rotten scoundrel from Oklahoma’s lying tongue, that would be a spectacular miracle.
I never intended to move the team my hiney.
And i dont even like basketball
Eric,
Please look over my questions at 8:48pm and 8:49pm.
Perhaps you have the answers.
Martin Luther’s Disciple,
You are probably correct, but if my child was very sick, I would go to my local pastor and to a claimed healer (as long as he preached the true Gospel of Jesus Christ).
So, we cannot fault those attending because we do not know their hearts or their condition. And, they are hearing the Word of God.
All I need is to watch something like this and it smacks me right back into reality. http://youtube.com/watch?v=XEbpbvSVVnc
Well according to a bumper sticker I saw “It doesnt matter the question: Jesus is the answer!”
As for tent meetings I am with ya bro. I am SOOOO not saying she was healed because she was at the tent, but rather Christ worked in spite of it. God is Sovereign, I am not, so i divert the question to Him as to why He apperantly healed her in the tent. If it were up to me all healings would be done ONLY at Compass Christian Fellowship - Orting.
As for speaking in tongues in the local assembly without Interpretation as prescribed in Holy Writ. I left the Foursquare church over this very issue. If we violate even the smallest Directive of Scripture, we are violating it all, or so i told the Pastor. Which is why I am on the outside looking in LOL.
Eric,
So doesn’t TB speaking in tongues in that manner also disqualify him as the same violation. He is broadcasting this to a world of unbelievers.
Solus,
Why would you go to the outside healer after you went to your local pastor?
Does the outside healer have more influence with God then your own pastor?
Frankly, if my kid was sick, I would take him to the doctor.
Dewd, I wish to God that the only thing that disqualified TB was speaking in tongues without interpretation.
For a double dose!
I think that if someone does not go to their local church elder and ask for anointing with oil and prayer and goes to a ‘healer’ first, they are violating God’s directive for healing.
I think if they go to their local church first and get prayed over and then go to the ‘healer’ they are insulting God by claiming that the vessel is more important than God. Do they think that the local elder didn’t do the incantation correctly.
UGG, this gets insane.
Do I believe that Tongues are in effect today? Yes, I pray in tongues in my private prayer.
Have I ever felt moved to speak in tongues in a public assembly? I have not, but have been in meetings where this has taken place in an orderly fashion and with immediate interpretation.
Am i leary when a person speaks in tongues, then gives the interpretation themselves? You Betcha
Do I believe in Words of Knowledge and Prophecy today? Yeppers, have been moved to speak myself in meetings, does it happen often or even regularly? nope, happened twice since I started walking with the Lord, and both times I checked myself vigourously as did the Pastor to make sure it lined up exactly with the holy Scriptures.
Do I expect MLD to agree with me on anything I said above? Nope, but I still love him anyway.
MLD,
Just like we had to learn about some things, other people have to learn. There is always more for us to learn.
Just like Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’
Everyone does not “know”, MLD.
So, you (us), all of us, have to keep sharing God’s Word, and never give up.
MLD - Amen, God said that is the way it should be done, either Scripture is wholly true or it is all a big lie and we are fools. If it is true we MUST do as God has said and go to the Elders first. Otherwise we show our own selfish desires to do it our way, which is the basis for all sin i thin, starting with Adams
MLD,
Think of it this way: It would be like going to your doctor and local pastor first, then, asking all your friends to pray. That’s probably how most people would feel about it. To pray for them and ask for healing. Isn’t that all these people are doing? Asking for prayer and healing?
Solus,
I think (and it is just me thinking out load) that God would not heal or perform miracles in a completely apostate environment like Lakeland. To what purpose would He do that?
Anyone getting healed at Lakeland would tell the world that God is woking through TB when He is not and that would only draw more people to the false teacher. So why would God heal me there if TB was a fake (which I think he is)?
Anyway, we should all probably go to the ’sleep healer’ at this time
Sleep is for the weak!!
Why would God heal this woman at the tent? Dont know, but apperently He didnt bother to ask us where we would like Him to do it. Thus, the beauty of Sovereign grace. God doesnt worry if I like it or not, He does it because He is God and He has decided to act.
Praise Him for it!!
MLD,
I believe you are probably correct. But, how terrible it would be if you are wrong (because we do not know the heart).
Paul (while in prison) was simply glad that God’s Word was being preached (even though he felt deep in his heart the “preachers” were bad.)
The older I get, the more I come to realize, just because I have not experienced something, nor understand it, does not mean it does not exist or is not true.
It is late and time for me to sleep. Goodnight friends.
Solus,
11:24
No, to me those people are going to a ‘magic’ man - and that is what they are hoping for, magic.
Does God hear better from Lakeland than he does the local church?
I really do need to go to bed - I will check in the morning.
Remember, I am not arguing with you, just venting myself about this issue.
Eric,
So God is complicit with TB the false teacher to drive people to his insane tent meeting?
Come on.
God could have healed her before she went to the tent so that it was not tied to TB at all. He would still be sovereign and great and not helping TB run the scam.
MLD - You know I didnt say that. I said God chose to heal this lady while she was in the tent. You can spin it any way you want, but I see the pictures for myself. I attribute it to God, as I dont believe Non-Corporeal beings such as Demons can straighten a back anymore than they can have relations with humans. Someone did it, if not God, then who else could have?
Attributing Gods saving grace, or in this instance healing grace with being Comlicit with the actions surrounding it, is akin to saying those who God reached while in a crack house or a jail cell cant really be saved because no one walked them down Romans road before Christ chose to awaken their heart.
As I said, if it were up to me God would only Heal in our church, that way we would have 4 billion members. But He doesnt seem to be on board with my church growth plan. If it wasnt God then who was it? Or is Oprah right and it is the power of the mind to overcome this?
“God could have healed her before she went to the tent so that it was not tied to TB at all. He would still be sovereign and great and not helping TB run the scam.”
Your right He could have, but He didnt. Why? i have no earthly idea, but I am not gonna argue what the evidence seems to suggest. I will glorify God for it, you can try to explain it away. I can only be responsible to my reactions to what I see God doing.
Can you show me from the Bible where God limited himself to only working in the places we think He should?
An honest question about such things to the group. In the last ten years or so many discoveries have been made in astronomy, biology, history etc. I personally think or “world view” is different then that of the apostles in the natural. We know (IE fact) that we live in a solar system, that is in a Galaxy, that is a member of a local group, that is just an extremely small part of the “universe”. We also know for a fact, observable and verified that there are other solar systems around other stars that follow the basic outline of solar system development. I wont address biological evolution.
We also understand that the earth goes around the sun, that alone was an incredible finding. In all this, and more we are finding out more about the physical processes that shape our world. Is it possible that God is choosing to touch us with truly supernatural signs to make us look ? I understand a good christian should not need signs, feelings, validation, support, fill in the blank. But for us whom are considerably weak it may help. Just a question. I hope I did not offend anyone.
BABs,
This woman should go to her doctor and get the last back view X-Ray of her back prior to the healing. Then, have him do the same angle X-Ray from the back. Then, she should post these two X-Rays on the internet and a physician could analyze them to see the differences. Scholiosis is typically caused by malformed vertebrae I believe, one or more pie-shaped instead of rectangular shaped vertebrae that then keep the spine from being able to align straight up vertically.
Those of you who believe that this could not be a demonic healing because demons do not heal, how do you explain in the book of Revelation the anti-Christ and false prophet being able to command fire to come down from heaven and perform great signs? How do you exlain the Deuteronomy 13:1-3 passage? How is it that angels are able to appear in human form at times in the scriptures if they have not the ability to heal the human body?
Now, I’m not saying that this woman’s healing is a demonic miracle, nor that it isn’t one, but is it not possible that if a demon wanted to deceive, and God gave it permission to do so, that it could perform a miracle such as a healing, in order to deceive? Could a demon provide legimate healings to test people’s hearts to see if they are still going to follow and promote a guy (TB) whose ministry and life are not Christ-centric and who is telling people to seek “angels” instead of salvation through the cross of Jesus Christ?
I’m thanking God that this woman’s life of pain and discomfort has been altered. But, theologically I don’t personally think that I can say whether her healing came from God or not.
I mentioned earlier on this blog that in 1974 I saw hard evidence that a woman’s daughter had her deformed arm radically healed after traveling to an Oral Robert’s crusade, and OR was a precursor to the present generation of televangelists. So, I’m not surprized that this woman was healed. But, TB is no more off of the hook than if she hadn’t been healed.
Scott,
That video demonstrates that TB is listening to his critics about all of the issues we have brought up about him, but he chooses to be unrepentant. You can sense him becoming increasingly desperate though. I hope that when his world crashes down that he humbles himself before the Lord and begins to give God glory and worship Jesus Christ.
JimB
Michael,
“Instaed of complaining..we should be gathering to do it right.”
Agreed. Now we’ve come full circle, my friend.
If this is legitimate, I give glory to God.
God is God and He can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants, wherever He wants, however He wants and through whomvever He wants.
I’m still firmly convinced Bentley is a heretic though.
Regardless of the experiences of the people, unless a minister is obeying the Word of God, there is no power in Him. Jesus told us what this power of God is…His love, and showed us this power at work as He got down on His knees and performed the most undesirable work of a servant in John 13.
But God responds to an [individual's] faith in His love, according to His will for your life. I live with terrible chronic pain, but God has spoken very clearly too me, three or four times this year, that I was not going to be healed, at least for a long time, if not ever. But the spiritual riches I gain, in my relationship with Christ, in the midst of the pain are much more wonderful to have than the physical healing.
I think that Peter answers many questions for us in 1st Peter 1 as he explains that God has an inheritance waiting for us, even though we did nothing to deserve receiving it. And God is working in our lives according to His perfect will to purify and perfect our faith. Why?
Because Peter says that it is our faith, that Jesus Christ when He comes, will be looking to glory in and honor and praise. I first wonder how Christ could glory in anything of me, such as my faith, and then I remember that my faith was developed by Him…not me. Neither did it have anything to do with the charismatic preacher.
The overly charismatic preacher, more often than not, leads us into the sin of Balaam [2nd Peter 2], rather than show us where the power of God is really found…in the Word only as the truth is illuminated by the power of His life and light and love. But knowledge by itself without love puffs up the ego of a man. The power of God’s love has to be used along with the gift of knowledge and knowing Christ.
So for this lady, it is to God’s glory that she was healed by God. God is at work to [grow] her faith. Now as God begins to [purify and perfect] her faith, we should pray that this healing leads her to the truth of God’s Word which will shine a light of truth for every step and decision she makes from this point on. If she follows the truth she will most likely end up in a more sound worship and teaching environment.
Or a more tragic thing could happen, which I have seen in many people I know and love, which is a long road of deception. And that is a dark road to travel which is filled frustration and discouragement and even a lot of death as people begin to refuse God’s help in other ways, such as through a doctor, because they were healed during church once before or saw it happen to someone else.
And as the power of God’s love grows within her, I pray that she will use the truth in love to discern what is truth and what is in error. She is at a critical point where she could end up following the man on stage or the man Jesus who lives in her heart in Spirit. And God will never ask us to do anything that would go against His Holy and loving Word.
Koala,
Mocking the power of God and His healing with your “my leg is growing” comment last night is putting yourself on some scary ground.
I’d strongly advise against it.
In answer to your question, God can heal AT THE SAME TIME man is being manipulative, using bad theology, etc. He’d prefer to use perfectly clean vessels, but probably finds them pretty rare. And He still wants to heal, so He does.
Maybe He uses the willing more than just the pure.
…And that’s NOT an apologetic for bad theology, bad practice or man’s manipulation.
M Luther Disciple,
I don’t know where you got the “miracles were over/winding down by Acts 9″ theology, but look at the LAST chapter of Acts (Acts 28:8-9).
Pauls, through the laying on of hands, healed Publius’ father.
Then, “the rest of the people on the island who had diseases were coming to him and getting cured.”
Doesn’t sound like the gift of healing was going away at all!
As far as healing through the local church in James 5, THAT is my hope as well. It’s far more orderly and better for several reasons.
BUT, you can’t argue from the silence of scripture it’s wrong to take place elsewhere.
And there is historical precedence in ministering in public throughout Acts, as well as healings by Jesus and his disciples throughout the Gospels.
So let’s see everyone in our church membership healed, THEN everyone our churches reach out to healed and there won’t be much room left for healing ministries outside of the local church!
As far as going outside the local church for a “more anointed healer”–do we not do the same thing ALL THE TIME for a more anointed TEACHER (listen to this podcast, go to this website)?
JimB:
“Those of you who believe that this could not be a demonic healing because demons do not heal, how do you explain in the book of Revelation the anti-Christ and false prophet being able to command fire to come down from heaven and perform great signs? How do you exlain the Deuteronomy 13:1-3 passage? How is it that angels are able to appear in human form at times in the scriptures if they have not the ability to heal the human body?”
Come on now you’re a CC pastor. Get back into your commentaries, reread the scriptures you quote in context and you will see and have an answer to you above statement. Who release the demons in Revelations? Who sends the demons to torment Saul? Who sets up the last days? Who brings wrath to the world? Who bring calamity or prosperity to people?
Now for angels. What does the word say about their forms? They always appear as men. They do not have bodies as we do. They are not ontologically the same as men. Who. metaphorically, will judge the angels?
Finally who is doing the testing in Duet 13:1-3, is it not God?
You walk on dangerous ground when you fail to give glory to God. No there is never glory for those who turn from him to false prophets like TB. There is only the inevitable calamity that God has for those who turn from Him.
He alone has the power of creation.
Satan gets no glory in here!
“Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.” (1 Peter 5:8-11, NASB95)
“After you have suffered awhile”
Why does god allow Satan to cause suffering?
Peter say it is to:
perfect
confirm
strengthen
establish
Finally when He has dominion FOREVER in these things!
Amen
Don’t you think Satan could just be dropped kicked at any time by Jesus Christ?
Instead of kicking, punching, BAMMING the people of God wouldn’t it be a whole lot better if ole TB did the same to Satan? The problem is there’s no drama in that and the power belongs to God alone.
Typo alert!
“Why does god allow Satan to cause suffering?”
should be:
Why does God allow satan to cause suffering?
sorry I repent!
Any medical people out there? it looks to me like her ribcage is still way off and the left scapula is very depressed compared to the other one-so…does that mean God only treats part of the body and doesn’t heal all of the associated problems with this disease?
Michael, after a night’s sleep, I woke up with an uneasy feeling about this story. Am I saying this uneasiness is from God? No, not necessarily.
However, this testimony is a huge deal, one way or the other. I agree with what some others have said here. If this young lady was diagnosed with scoliosis at the age of 13 and as she says the Doctors told her “the only way to straighten it would be surgery because my growth-plate was almost closed, leaving no option for a brace…” There has to be x-rays on file of this condition.
In addition, she indicated that she’s had Physical therapy up until some recent period of time, but was forced to discontinue this therapy because of lack of funds. Is it possible that she would of been able to have Physical Therapy without X-rays? I don’t know, however, I would think they should have had something on file to verify the condition and tat a minimum know exactly why and where they were administering the therapy (?)
I appreciate Dread’s testimony that he “knows” this lady and can attest to her “Character”. However, he is not a doctor who is trained in this field, nor did he or she provide any substantiated documentation that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt the historical diagnosis of this claim, with attending evidence, or, present medical confirmation of this claim.
I hate to be a naysayer. However, I have just witnessed too many shenanigans over the years. And I’m of the opinion that without all of the collaborating evidence, it may of been premature to run with a story like this. I don’t say that to chide or rebuke, it’s just my opinion, that’s all.
So, we met a neighbor who just came back from Lakeland. His wife was healed from a Parkinsons type problem while there. She shook when she went, and now she doesn’t shake. My husband spend about half and hour talking to him.
I know God heals, but what is the scripture about lying spirits, the performing of miracles…I can not remember.
I am not sure what I think, but no matter what, God gets all the glory, TB is just a tool/attraction. I do think there is a danger of people “following” TB, rather than Jesus Christ.
Ed-
wouldn’t healing this woman at these meetings only serve to further the Todd Bentley show? How does this do anything but lead people to God via the false teaching of Bentley?
Kirk,
You make at least 2 errors above.
#1. - If you reread my statement, I said that the miracles in Jerusalem seem to have ended by Acts 9 and that miracles in the Book of Acts are greatly diminished by the end of the book - I didn’t say over - but so much so, that healing doesn’t come up in Pauls conversation with Timothy.
#2 - About healing in the local church vs off site. Show mw an example in the Book of Acts or a teaching in the epistles where we are told to set up ’shop’ to heal. All of the healings that take place in scripture are spontaneous. No one planned a trip from far away because the apostalic healer had set up his tent.
Again, the only directive we have is James 5 and it is local since TB is not an elder in anyone’s church.
Dread, is this young lady a part of your fellowship? If so, will you ask her if she is willing to visit an Orthopedic Doctor who will provide a statement that she has been completely healed of scoliosis? If she can’t afford it, perhaps I can try and find some way to raise some resources to help with the cost of this. I’m serious about this too.
In fact, the Doctor wouldn’t even need to say that she was ‘healed”, I would think a medical prognosis which confirms that she doesn’t have scoliosis is adequate.
OK if it were Jesus who had laid hands on the woman, what would he have told her to do after being healed?
I’m no expert on scoliosis nor of the hand shaking mentioned above but there are two ways this can be approached for verification.
The first is to go to the doctor and confirm via past and present records as Scott has mentioned. I believe Jesus may have said to do this to verify God’s glory to others.
The second is for these people to just enjoy what has changed in their life and give Glory to God for it.
We seem to be on this quest to fight over God’s glory and is it a real healing or not?
I really don’t know if either of these are real but I know God’s glory is and If either of these people have received relief from their maladies in any way, Glory to God in the highest!
I am also excited for them and their relief. Pain is never fun and I wish them the best.
So why does God permit men like TB to rise up amongst us?
MLD:
Ask the question, “What is the time span between the beginning and end of Acts?”
Also how many recorded raising of the dead are in the NT? By Jesus? By the Apostles?
Were those raised from the dead believers/faithful Jews or pagan gentiles/unfaithful Jews?
Why would a believer/faithful Jew want to return from the dead and the place of rest just to suffer pain and sickness to die again?
What is a gift healing?
Is the gift of healing given to a person to lay hands on people and heal them or is it the healing given to the one healed?
“or is it the healing given to the one healed?”
better wording:
or is it the gift of healing given to the one healed?
Drew, I agree whole heartily. Pain is so debilitating. And I will be the first one to join in with a chorus of praise to the Lord if these stories are true!
Where I am troubled, is that this testimony is being presented so as to legitimize what is happening at Lakeland, regarding Todd Bentley’s testimony concerning himself, etc. And although, most people, here at least, know the Guy is at a minimum disingenuous, this story is being used to authenticate practices where people yell “FIRE” and…. Oh well, you get my drift.
I gotta run. Bye for now.
JimB -
Are you serious? The Anti-Christ and the false prophet ARE MEN, not demons. Angelic beings, including demons do not have physical bodies. They are all around us at all times, and God in His sovereign authority occasionally allows us to see them when it meets His will.
Or are you saying they are hiding from us, but still physically (bodily, as in a Corpus here?) And demons OR angels healing? Where exactly in all of scripture do you see that? God alone heals, God alone has the authority to allow the lying signs and wonders from both Revelation and Exodus were for Gods glory as He showed he was mightier, in Exodus it was to demonstrate His power over thier false gods. Every single miracle He preformed was a direct slap in the face of one of thier false gods and all of thier false prophets.
Dewd, can you point me to ONE place in scripture that it says Angels can AT THIER will do anything? They are messengers. The Demons likewise as fallen angels cannot do anything unless God allows. Satan had to continually beg God for the ability to go after Job, and even when it was granted it was within Gods guidance.
Drew,
>>Come on now you’re a CC pastor. Get back into your commentaries, reread the scriptures you quote in context and you will see and have an answer to you above statement. Who release the demons in Revelations? Who sends the demons to torment Saul? Who sets up the last days? Who brings wrath to the world? Who bring calamity or prosperity to people?
So, Drew you believe then that when the Anti-Christ commands fire to come down from heaven that the Lord does the miracle? Or, when he does the other miracles he will do that it is the Lord that performs each miracle? Or, when the false prophet described in Deut. 13 performs a sign or wonder that comes true that it is God does that? No, on all counts in my book. But, the Lord does allow the Devil and his host to wreak his mischief in these things.
By the way, do I detect condescension in referring to me as a CC pastor the way you did?
>>Now for angels. What does the word say about their forms? They always appear as men. They do not have bodies as we do. They are not ontologically the same as men. Who. metaphorically, will judge the angels?
If you believe that the Nephilim were a cross breed of humans the result of genetic modification caused by a fallen angel having relations with a woman, as I do, then “ontologically” the human bodies angels appear in could be fully human in form and function. Now that I think of it, if the Nephilim came about as I suspect then this is further evidence of the possibility that a fallen angel could heal.
>>Who. metaphorically, will judge the angels?
This is irrelevant.
>>Finally who is doing the testing in Duet 13:1-3, is it not God?
Again, this is irrelevant.
>>You walk on dangerous ground when you fail to give glory to God. No there is never glory for those who turn from him to false prophets like TB. There is only the inevitable calamity that God has for those who turn from Him.
I think I’m on just as dangerous ground as you for claiming a legitimate healing in the ministry of a false teacher.
JimB
Todd Bentley’s Angel EMMA, has a sex change!
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/another-deliberate-deception-todd-bentley-angel-emma-has-a-sex-change-in-todd-bentleys-latest-book/
Sorry I haven’t had time to read this whole thread yet but this is not at all convincing to me. She still looks like she has scoliosis in the second picture. She obviously took the first picture with the intent of showing how bad her scoliosis was, and the second picture to show how good it was. But the second picture still shows a back that is obviously crooked, and she is trying to straighten it. This is no healing. You guys fell for the oldest trick in the books. It is like before and after pictures of someone who is holding their stomach out and sucking it in, claiming to have lost a bunch of weight. Or the old stretch the leg trick. I love you guys for wanting to believe something good, but look at the pictures again. Nice try Dread.
The turn of discussion here is rather interesting. Can we not simply rejoice with those who are rejoicing? As we bicker back & forth about the origin of a sister in Christ’s healing, she’s praising God for relief she has experienced.
From my perspective, that’s a good enough place to leave it.
There’s enough evidence against TB to find much fault against him…why fight over this one?
Dave, one of my son works on 3-D renderings, and has a keen eye. He told me the same thing that you just said last night.
Eric,
>>The Anti-Christ and the false prophet ARE MEN, not demons.
I didn’t say they were demons. They are men possessed by demons, I think.
>>Angelic beings, including demons do not have physical bodies. They are all around us at all times, and God in His sovereign authority occasionally allows us to see them when it meets His will.
Right, they “appear” in human form sometimes in the scriptures.
>>And demons OR angels healing? Where exactly in all of scripture do you see that? God alone heals,
I agree that the demons are not specifically found performing healing. But, they are seen perform miracles (Pharaoh’s magicians, Deut. 13, Anti-Christ and false prophet in Revelation), and healing is a miracle, right?
>>Dewd, can you point me to ONE place in scripture that it says Angels can AT THIER will do anything? They are messengers. The Demons likewise as fallen angels cannot do anything unless God allows. Satan had to continually beg God for the ability to go after Job, and even when it was granted it was within Gods guidance.
No, not a single place.
Every question you asked was because you didn’t understand what I had written. Bro, I don’t know if it is you or if it is me, but there was a definite disconnect here.
JimB
“By the way, do I detect condescension in referring to me as a CC pastor the way you did?”
Yes you do. While I have disagreed with CC pastors I have a high regard for their standards of exegesis.
God is totally in charge here and he will never give His glory to another! The questions you bring up question the complete sovereignty of God. Revelation is a work of God not Satan.
UGGG, this is so frustrating. NO ONE IS CLAIMING SHE WAS HEALED BY TODD BENTLEY OR HIS MINISTRY. We are saying, if this proves true, GOD in HIS Sovereign will healed her in spite of where she was. Good Lord.
And the Nephalim came from Demons having se# with human women? So angels and demons can now have sexual relations with humans. Where does this idea come from? Like really, I have heard this stuff about the power of demons from people like Bob Larson. Seriously here, nt making fun or being condescending, just never have I heard in the orthodox body of Christ this stuff. I have led a sheltered life apperantly.
“If you believe that the Nephilim were a cross breed of humans the result of genetic modification caused by a fallen angel having relations with a woman, as I do, then “ontologically” the human bodies angels appear in could be fully human in form and function. Now that I think of it, if the Nephilim came about as I suspect then this is further evidence of the possibility that a fallen angel could heal.”
Don’t agree here and find no other evidence to support it. But I have read outside books dealing with Jewish mysticism which would support your idea.
Koala Bear,
Demons didn’t heal her, Todd didn’t heal her, God didn’t heal her. She still has scoliosis. Look at the pictures again, or better yet, show them to a doctor. She isn’t healed.
Not irrelevant when you understand the complete sovereignty of God who commands angels to bring calamity.
I think I’m on just as dangerous ground as you for claiming a legitimate healing in the ministry of a false teacher.
It is never dangerous to give real healings credit and glory to God. It is always dangerous to OK False teachings about Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and who God is.
I better end with this this whole thread and TB really gets me riled up.
Not a supporter of TB and his wacko stuff, but I give Glory to God for his mercy and grace shown to us in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.
Drew
Dave, sall good, I have toned it down until I see further proof after reading what those who have walked longer in this stuff have said.
But IF she was healed. Then, attributing that healing to Demons as some have is to spit in the face of Gods sovereignity, no? And gives Satan and the Demons way more power than Scripture indicates.
Your well trained Dave, and a man all respect and love. What say you about this Demon Corpus thing, because it is all news to me.
Dave,
I don’t think that straightening out the spine is as easy a task as you suggest. A person with a spine as crooked as her’s can’t just straighten up and get it to go right. Plus, if your muscles were being used to straighten out your back they would be bulging, yet hers are relaxed.
BTW, having a case of scholiosis myself due to Shuerman’s disease as a youth, I have some understanding of the spine. I know all of the symptoms this young lady mentioned, but my curvature was not so bad as hers. I too prayed for healing after coming to Christ and the interesting thing for me was that as years went by my three badly deformed vertebrae in the center of my back began to take on normal shape. Weight lifting helped enormously with the constant pain I was in growing up, as did constant concentration on having good posture. But, because of my curvature twice I tore right in half one of the large muscles running down the sides of my spine. The rehab was long and painful.
What if this woman was partially healed? Maybe her spine was healed but not her scapula?
Anyway, I am not convinced that this is just trickery.
JimB
I will start a firestorm if I start espousing my views on the power of demons and Satan. I’ll just say this. I think they are greatly overrated, and their main power is in deception and lies, smoke and mirrors. So I guess they could have done a phony healing like this one. Demons are magicians.
Dave,
I’m glad I am not the only one who sees her spine still isn’t in the correct place. It’s just a different camera angle and a shifting of her weight that gives the illusion.
Speaking of healing.
My kids are off to Canada with their Grandparents for a week, my neice was going but she has a double ear infection and bronchitits and is staying Home. If you could please pray for a Healing for Clarissa, and protection for my family as they explore the beauty of Victoria.
Going to the Mariners today, yes I hate Baseball, but after my Father in law passing, and now Ryans Dad, I want to spend every second with my father that I can. Yes he is a pig headed guy, thats where I get my sunny disposition from LOL
Drew,
>>God is totally in charge here and he will never give His glory to another! The questions you bring up question the complete sovereignty of God. Revelation is a work of God not Satan.
Oh, so your Calvinistic beliefs now have convinced you that God is responsible for all evil??? What kind of theology is that? What kind of a God are you describing? Man, I don’t view God commanding every evil act to occur!
Can God be sovereign and still “allow” specific evil acts to happen as part of His foreordained plan, rather than “command it happen”? Could God’s foreordination of all that will occur also include His foreknowledge of all of evil choices that His creatures will make? Can’t God be sovereign and have a foreordained plan and yet still allow His creatures to have free will to choose to love and serve Him? I reject a view of God that commands every evil act to occur as not being the God of the Bible.
“Revelation” is irrelevant in this context and discussion.
JimB
Dave it would be a good firestorm. I am sure that you have noticed that in the midst of the conflict and conversation at PP; people here listen and allow their doctrinal views to grow or be changed or sharpen their understanding and explanation of them.
JimB - Now you are just being rediculous. So God allowing Satan to take Jobs Family, Home, Health and everything, was not God ALLOWING it to happen in HIS will?
Really dude, you are just grasping at straws, and you haughty post is beneath you. Drew has in no way said God is the author of Evil, that God allows evil to happen, within His will is so clearly spelled out in the book of Job that you will have to try harder to discredit the view. We have scripture, an entire BOOK of the Bible to show what we are saying, you have the opinion of Chuck Missler to show demons are runnin round having physical relations with humans. I think we are on a little more solid footing here.
Drew,
In this study I present biblical evidence for the Nephilim coming as a result of angelic interference into the human genome:
http://www3.calvarychapel.com/greenbay/Genesis/Gen5p1.htm
JimB
Just for the record, I have never implied that a demon is responsible for this. Like Dave, I’m just not convinced this story will pan out. I suspect that if Dread starts to press this young lady for hard evidence, he is going to be disappointed.
As to Matthew 7, Jesus said that “many” will “say in that day we cast out devils in your name, did miracles in your name…” etc, etc.
If he declares, “Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you”. What is He saying? That they never really did do the the things He details? Or, that really did do these things?
And if in fact, they did do these things with attended results, by what power did they do it? God’s power? Their power? The Devil’s power?
Kirk,
“Mocking the power of God and His healing with your “my leg is growing” comment last night is putting yourself on some scary ground.”
The issue is mocking the person and character of God and the many ways Bentley does so.
Eric is generally quick to acknowledge with honor the person and character of God. However, if he stepped out of align in that regard he will own up to it as well.
What I meant to say is, “Is He saying that they really did NOT do these things?
***Mocking the power of God and His healing with your “my leg is growing” comment last night is putting yourself on some scary ground.
I’d strongly advise against it.***
But he made me laugh so it’s all good.
Koala Eric,
You keep accusing me of saying the opposite of what I am saying. I believe that God “allowed” Satan to do those things to Job. I’m totally in agreement with that concept.
However, what I am disagreeing with is that I think that Drew’s concept is that when it comes to evil acts that because of God’s sovereignty He “commands” those evil things to occur. I can’t accept that.
This is me disagreeing with a Calvinist assertion. Sorry, if I appear arrogant to you. I just disagree with the concept. I hope this doesn’t start a firestorm, but part of the way we perceive what happened to this woman in regard to being healed is based upon our understanding of God’s sovereignty verses the free will of man.
JimB
Vic, that was the other Koala, and Not Koala Bear trails Discernment ministry and coffee house.
Cats and dogs can Physically engage in Realtions, However, no matter what the cartoons say, it will not result in a Cat-Dog. Neither can two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT species, IE Angels and Humans, or Fallen Angels and Humans create a new race.
My Scripture says All things were created BY HIM, not by two differing species having relations
Kirk,
I was not mocking the power of God…I was mocking the deception of men. Big difference. If someone’s leg is extended and healed by God then I’m overjoyed. My point was that many of these “miracles” are things that are difficult to verify and prove. Not to mention the fact that a very small percentage of people really have a leg that is so much shorter than the other that it causes any problems at all. So to have these “leg growing” healing crusade phenomenons as we did 20 years ago or seems a bit out of order.
How about heart disease, cancer, and aids. Those are epidemics that are killing people by the millions…why don’t we see these sicknesses as the main thrust of these healing ministries? And I don’t mean setting up shop in Lakeland for a bunch of Christians to congregate…I mean going to the hospitals, etc.
Dave,
I was thinking the same thing but didn’t have the courage to say it like you did.
Just watch out for 2 she-bears after mocking. Just in case.
Praise God for the healing of this woman!
Reading this thread, I am reminded of the pharisees who rather than rejoicing when God healed, complained that it wasn’t according to their standard, or on a day of the week that they approved.
God saw this womans’ need and touched her…
Hallelujah!
We are still putting too much emphasis on TB and Lakeland.
Would it be in character of God to refuse a providential healing in this womans life because she was in the meeting of a man that he was not pleased with?
I dont know about you, but God has shown up for me in the most peculiar of circumstances.
God is God and does what He pleases when He pleases.
Hey Koala, Wanna go to a Mariners game? (And the trap is set, if he is in my area I will finally catch the ZombiSpurgeon, thereby proving that demons and men of God can exist on one body)
“Oh, so your Calvinistic beliefs now have convinced you that God is responsible for all evil??? What kind of theology is that? What kind of a God are you describing? Man, I don’t view God commanding every evil act to occur!”
Kind of hard to take this any other way. We have said consistently God in His sovereign will ALLOWS these things to happen for HIS Glory. Remember the Blind man? What did Jesus (GOD) Himself say? He was blind so God could show HIS power. So God didnt ALLOW this man to be blind from birth so JESUS could demonstrate his healing power?
SARCASM ALERT:
Off to the belly of the Beast, Seattle, please pray no demons rape me as I walk to Safeco.
Kirk, that is ridiculous, don’t be be superfluous.
You are actually comparing the story of Elisha and the young kids who were mocking him saying “Go up baldy”, and what Koala pointed out as a factual form of trickery utilized by ‘faith healers’ for years? C’mon, man, get serious. And on top of that, you are suggesting that Koala is in danger of a death judgment if he doesn’t ‘watch’ what he’s saying regarding Bentley?
Nomans, do you believe it’s unreasonable for me, under the circumstances, to want collaborating evidence? Even Jesus told Thomas to thrust his hand into His side.
Scott,
Nope.
If thats what you need, thats what you need.
I will say this, however;
The only thing that would be proven if she has indeed been healed is that God, in His omniscience, saw it fit to heal her.
You continue sounding the clarion…..
Koala,
I’ve only prayed for one cancer patient to get healed–my Mom and she died from it. But she was a Christian, so she got the ultimate healing.
I’ve prayed for 2 peoples’ legs that 1 was shorter than the other (one in a lot of pain), and they both got healed. I take the fear of the Lord very seriously on these matters, and for people afflicted they can seem (are sometimes are) demonic.
God calls Christians to pray for the sick, and He does heal.
But it’s not always instantaneous–and wasn’t always WITH JESUS! Read Mark 8. But He does heal.
How much lesser we are than Jesus!
Martin Luther Schautze-maus,
Sure, there are no big tent revivals in scripture. And there are no Christian coffee houses and Christian book stores in scripture either, but I don’t think we need to make a whip like Jesus did.
There are no scriptural prohibitions on mass Christian meetings, and there are scriptural precedents that are plausible. They SHOULD be evaluated by their fruitfulness, message, etc.
And yes, I agree, it’s *better* in a local church. But again look at how many of Jesus’ healings happened in public (and where was the healing where they removed the roof?!?!) and where in Acts they occured. A small percentage were in the temple or church services.
Have a great 4th of July!
Takin’ it to the streets,
Kirk
Alrighty then little Niece
I’m going to continue to press for hard evidence. If it is substantiated, I will be the first in line to give glory to God! If it’s proved to be false?
Also remember, Uncle Scottie,
Jesus had Thomas put his hand in His side because of his unbelief…
Not because He needed verification.
He was yielding to his beloved desciples weakness.
I just love Jesus so much.
In the biblical accounts, there was never the question as to whether or not the person was healed. The healings were all dramatic and complete. The question raised was always about the source of the healings.
No one was healed of ‘invisible’ problems, since that would not serve the purpose of demonstrating God’s power.
I will wait for the person who is completely blind from birth (none of this legally blind stuff) and now they can see with 20/20 vision.
It seems that if the “fire” were really in Lakeland, the Braille Institute would be closing down.
Folks,
Sorry to start some fireworks only to have to leave to see some more fireworks.
But, that is my day today. May God richly bless your day! I mean that. I’ll check back in with the debate later.
JimB
Note to self: Use more smiley faces when you present your arguments…
JimB:
Thank you for your link I enjoyed it. It does show the kind of study I have enjoyed of CC pastors that I know I retract my statement.
In your study you correctly point out all the arguments including Jude and what some believe are the angels mentioned in Peter. However, on this thread you made firm assertions about Gen 6 ,which have been debated for centuries and which no resolve has been made, and the odd conclusion you draw from it that demons can do creative miracles.
I do not believe the conclusions you draw from your study of Gen 6 can conclude some strain of demons can produce creative miracles.
But this is not the issue here, is it? You make attacks and assumptions of me through leading questions which you already imply an answer through the question. You appear to have a strong dislike and rejection of the total sovereignty as mentioned by Calvin.
You imply that God is somehow bound by the choices of his creation, something Open Theology holds as truth. You also seem to ignore the word clearly says God brings calamity. Have you forgotten that evil is not a created thing but rather what is in the hearts of men and fallen angels?
James says God is not tempted by evil. God can not go against himself because He is never evil.
We will go in circles here but I will end with this from James:
“Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting from above.”
In context James is talking about testing and trials, not necessarily being healed.
God never wavers and can always be trusted.
Kirk,
“And there are no Christian coffee houses and Christian book stores in scripture either, but I don’t think we need to make a whip like Jesus did.”
If you can go down the rows and look at the ‘christian’ book titles and not think that we should make whips like Jesus, then you have no discernment.
Also, what is a ‘christian’ coffee house. Did the coffee house respond to an altar call - has it been baptized? What is this creature called a ‘christian’ coffee house and how is it different from Starbucks?
Happy 4th of July everyone.
A Friend,
I’m sorry, I didn’t see you post last night. Thank you for sharing the story with us. You mentioned that you have scoliosis, I can certainly understand why this topic is of interest to you. I hope someday you will be healed.
Martin Luther’s Disciple (11:38 pm),
I knew you were not arguing (and appreciate your comment). You just feel strongly about this subject. You’ve made some very good points. TB doesn’t interest me much—religious speakers and stages are a bad mix (IMHO).
Scott, my response was *somewhat* sarcastic and to Jessica. The posts come so quick that it was a few down.
It is very hard for me to call a Christian minister (or even a “Christian” minister) names, or to say that I KNOW FOR CERTAIN that he is not used of God. Do I want to oppose something that God *might be* in? NO!
And there’s PLENTY of historical and biblical precedent for that.
I *will* gladly talk about fruit, technique, theology, personal tattoo style and dress, bad haircuts…
Please understand if I neither become a Bentley apologist NOR call him a demon, antichrist, etc etc
Got to get back to the construction on my house.
Have a good one.
Scott,
What I am saying is this;
The authenticity of this womans healing has no bearing on the fact that TB needs to be warned about and challenged.
God bless you, Jim.
Have a great Independence Day!
~Nomans
No offense, but I know of a healing that was not visible. And I can personally attest to it. My wife HAD CANCER 12 biopsies confirmed it, our Pastor prayed for her, our church prayed for her, God removed the cancer 100%. we never saw the cancer, but we did see the medical results from 12 biopsies of her thyroid, we know she had cancer in the other thyroid because it was removed and the cancer was there when she was 19. The same form had returned and through prayer God Himself removed the cancer from her body.
He for whatever reason has not seen fit to heal all of her maladies but He did remove the cancer. No second hand testimony here as I was in the Doctors office when the prognosys was delivered, and I was there when he said “sometimes things happen we cannot explain. This is one of those times”
God is Good, the Mariners suck, but what the heck.
Happy Birthday to this land of misfits, praise God TB is from Canada so they cant blame him on us at least.
May the Lord richely bless all of you on you independence day celebrations
Nomans, right, I am not convinced this story is true. I have ‘unbelief’ about it, I confess it, I’m not as spiritual and quick to swallow it hook, line and sinker. I’m a weakling, I admit it
Therefore, I really have prayed that the Lord will prove to me unconditionally, that this testimony to which many here and other places are glorifying God for, is really true. Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief.
MLD 10:05 Excellent point!
Oh no, Scott
I did not mean to insinuate that you were weak.
I was just making the point that that specific act with Thomas was not because Jesus needed to be proven.
Nomans, oh, on the Bentley side? I have NO unbelief whatsoever
The link I posted earlier where Bentley is now claiming in his new book that the angel EMMA was really a “he” is proof enough to demonstrate that this man is chronic and deliberate liar. And no, he doesn’t have a corner on lying, I’ve done some lying myself over the years! LOL!
Scott:
I don’t know if it is true or not and frankly don’t care. I do care that this woman has relief from her pain.
The discussion and confusion here is how could a false teacher/prophet produce real healings? If this is not real then the discussion is still only for our sake and will be mostly pointless. If it is real then we need to resolve our doctrine and that is a good thing.
Time to go!
Drew
It’s cool, Nomans. I have taken absolutely NO offense, nor have I misread what you have said! I am your favorite Uncle after all
To those who believe that these healings (if indeed they are genuine) have their origin in satan and his minions, can you cite any scriptural precedence for that?
I understand that satan can produce lying signs and wonders, but healings?
I’ve tried to make a point here. For me, it’s not even related to what was the source of healing. It’s whether or not a healing took place. If it didn’t, then the all the other discussion is a mute point.
And with that, I’ll end my discussion on the matter and wait for further input from the subjects involved in the presentation of this story in the first place
JimB
I do not think the young lady has had treatment for her scoliosis since she refused surgery to put a rod in her back as a youth. So there may not be any available xrays… However, lets say the xrays are available…what will they show to our eyes? They will show backs with very different structural anomalies. Someone will just say that they came from two different people. If I produce a doctor someone will say the doctor is in on the ruse. The need of proof is never ending.
Why is testimony not enough? Especially with the pictures and with people who know her well testifying… in scripture two witnesses is sufficient.
However I will supply whatever is possible to obtain.
***I’ve prayed for 2 peoples’ legs that 1 was shorter than the other (one in a lot of pain), and they both got healed.***
I seriously doubt that. The whole lengthening legs trick is the oldest one in the book.
I also still think Koala’s joke was pretty funny. It made me laugh, it still makes me laugh, and I see nothing wrong with that.
Now, I’m off to my parent’s house to celebrate Independence Day. I’ll let you know if I get mauled by any she bears.
Dread, I am willing to donate $100 towards a visit to a Orthopedic doctor for this young lady. If I had the money, I’d pay it all, unfortunately I’m kind of strapped right now.
All I am asking is that a doctor who specializes in this field, provide a written statement that there is no evidence of scoliosis in her body, simple.
I agree with Dave and LFT on this one, I briefly expressed this the other night.
I just spent the morning with a young man who has realized that the prophetic movement has ripped him off and sent him off track. He spend some time at Bethel, Bill Johnson’s church. It was his study of the Word of God that led him to this conclusion; much of what he said has already been covered here.
Happy Fourth to everyone. Remember our men and women in Iraq, Afghanistan, and places we can’t mention.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
I’m out to spend time with family.
Shalom
Whoa!
Now that I have read through the thread more thoroughly… shock! Rolph says there is no evidence of healing, Scott, now disbelieves it. Hey guys… I have not seen this lady in a year. She and I have never discussed Todd Bentley. I had no idea she was going to Lakeland… I just say all of that to let you know that she is oblivious to the controversy surrounding TB. For her, well her testimony tells it all.
All I know is she was in pain and had a crooked back and now she is out of pain, giving glory to God, and everywhere she goes the only skeptics she encounters are Christians.
Look I know how badly you all hate Bentley, but hey, if you are right then it is just a Matt. 7:21 deal where someone used Jesus name and she got healed.
I have heard every caveat..TB did not touch her, TB was not directly involved, on and on. She has not credited TB, she credits the Lord… she also manifested a great deal of faith…
1. She remembered a word spoken to her
2. She decided to go to Lakeland
3. She took a before pic because she believed it was going to happen
4. She worshiped the Lord and he touched her.
Others have sought healing… this is no assault on them… but she seems to have it.
I have NO stake in this other than that I passed on the testimony with her permission. If it proves false I will be the first to admit I was fooled.
This is the most innocent circumstance of all. This girl has no axe to grind, no agenda, no guile. She is in the crossfire of the religious muckety mucks of the day… yes that means us.
Here is another question I have about these traveling healing shows. Are they in place because someone sitting with a friend and or pastor and praying for a healing is not sufficeint.
Does God not hear our prayers but does hear the prayers at a healing service? Is it a matter of numbers?
Well, I’m here at my parents’ house. No she bears. But, I did have my eye assaulted by the image of a pasty, wrinkled, shrivelled up old guy riding his bike down the middle of the street and wearing nothing but shorts. I have been suitably rebuked.
Oh wait, no I haven’t. I still think Koala’s joke was funny.
Here would be a good healing - some 400lbs morbidly obese person with diabetes or something that would cause this obesity, walks out healed and 185lbs. Now that would be a good one.
Rolph
“This is no healing. You guys fell for the oldest trick in the books.”
Did someone steal Rolph’s identity?…. Dude you do not even hedge yourself… you just out and out call it a fraud.
And then punctuate with “nice try Dread” like I am in on a ruse. Not in any way… all I am is the mail carrier. She sent me the pics and testimony and I passed them on by her permission.
You are out and out saying she falsified this and indicating that I am in on it. Like I said, what alien stole Rolph?
You want me to book you a TV guest? You could expose her to the whole world… imagine bring down TB and you will be a hero, great for ratings.
Through my keen gifts, I have discerned that Jessica lives less than 30 min from her parents
***Ed-wouldn’t healing this woman at these meetings only serve to further the Todd Bentley show? How does this do anything but lead people to God via the false teaching of Bentley?***
I would think so too and I don’t understand how or why people experience healing [if they really do] at a show like this, mainly because I don’t see what is going on in the spiritual realm. I have different ideas about how these miracles happen sometimes…some of which are being discussed by others here.
I don’t think that someone’s experience in a situation like this is necessarily of God. But I do believe God reaches into these situations to try and show us the real truth. And I take comfort in knowing that God even works with the wickedness of men to accomplish His plans sometimes.
If this lady was healed in a place where wickedness abounds, then regardless of why or how she was healed, God is going to use all of these experiences she is having to try and lead her to the truth, which in my opinion would be away from this kind of teaching.
But she has to be open to receiving that truth. Sadly though, most people get drunk on this stuff and live with it like a disease. I’ve seen people die, in just the last year, because of their devotion to the teaching of people like this.
My main point earlier was to say that God works with us one on one, and just because we might be in the wrong place for a moment, as Michael said in starting this conversation…God still heals. God does still heal and can do it anyway He chooses. But it is done according to His perfect will and plan for our lives and we don’t know what that is or what experiences we will as a part of His plan.
God may heal a person who is following these teachers, to try and lead them to the Word, where they will learn the truth about the teaching they are receiving. Or God may [allow] someone to be healed physically as part of a plan he has to perform a greater miracle in someones heart, as part of a spiritual healing.
The leadership are not of God if they don’t have the power of God’s Word and His love within them. But as for the people, God is trying to reach each one of us with the truth regardless of the leadership who is deceiving us. He is much bigger than they are.
Remember Peter teaching that God brought us salvation by allowing His Son to die by the hands of wicked men. He executed the greatest plan of all time by utilizing [our] wickedness to fulfill a plan that would bring us our salvation…how awesome is that!?
But now I know that God can [also] use the evil parts of me, the bad choices and wicked experiences of my life to reveal to me, the even greater plan He has already fulfilled…a plan that gives me the chance to know Him personally and live with Him forever.
I can see that this will be a circular discussion apparently going nowhere. So, I’ve had enough.
I put my money where my mouth is. If that’s not good enough, oh well. Todd Bentley has been proclaiming vociferously for weeks that there is attending medical evidence supporting these claims! Even 27 resurrections from the dead!
Dread, I have no way of contacting this young lady, or else I would. You are the one who provided this documentation to Michael. Therefore, it is somewhat incumbent upon you to act as a liaison for those who doubt it’s authenticity. If she is unwilling to do so, then the onus is on her, not us.
Hows about we wait until Dread sees this person?
If this is wishful thinking or psychosomatic that long traveling will have this person in pain.
Dread has been open and honorable in this matter and I believe he will continue to be.
I asked him if I could publish those pictures, he did not ask me.
This is my doing, not his, so aim northwest.
Michael,
You said the discussion would be interesting. It surely is. It is very hard for me to actually believe that some here think healing is possible and I am back to my questions from long ago….
How would they have believed when Jesus was healing people?
How Rolph can assert there is no change in that back condition other than an attempt to stand straight is beyond comprehension. I donot think anyone can contort their back into that shape.
In her first letter she even admitted that her rib cage did not feel quite straight. Now she says she is in NO pain and has no symptoms of the earlier condition.
If she is lying and has falsified this …then she has her 15minutes of fame. Like I said I will admit it.
I will see if I can get the orthopedic testimony…so we will see.
Michael,
You are right - we should not be attacking Dread. To me this is not about Dread, TB or anyone particular thing.
It is the state of the Church in America today. We have relegated the local church to a secondary source of meeting God. This is why we have (as Kirk brought up earlier) Christian bookstores, Christian coffeehouses, TV preachers, traveling healing services and Harvest Crusades type events.
God doesn’t meet us in church any longer, he doesn’t meet us in that small quiet voice. No, we need to go find him in the thunder and lightening. We have stripped the local pastor of their office.
What good do any of the above events do that cannot be done in the local church?
That is my concern.
MLD,
I’m so glad you’re back…I truly am.
I share in your concerns and have stated them as well.
We have scorned the local assembly and the pastors and elders that serve faithfully there.
My only concern is that we don’t discount the fact that God still moves and still heals…even though the American church is indeed a mess.
God healed my dad of a terminal illness at the end of WWII. If He had not, I’d have never been born since it was before my conception. He became a Christian Scientist. IF you have the audacity, some of you, to indicate that Dad was ‘healed’ by satan, then am I to understand that my brother and I are here, not by God’s design but satan’s? I think NOT! GOD healed my dad. Reason he joined my mom’s Christian Science church is that NO other churches would even consider that God was in the healing business any longer. Fortunately he’s with the Lord now, as is my mom, but I often wonder how many folk went for Christian Science because no one else would have a healing service in the church.
MLD, I have a strong dislike for ‘crusades’. I’m all for praying for the sick in the local church. Sadly, it’s mainly the charismatics who do this and no one else. When folk believe that healing is not for now, that kind of ‘kills’ any chance to pray for the sick.
I’m still waiting,along with Eric and Nomans, for someone to give scriptual proff that demons can perform healings. If you people (whomever it was) think that this or any other reported healing can be a “demonic healing” I’d very much like know where you have gotten that idea.
Serious question…cause if demons are doding the work of satan who comes to kill, steal and destroy (notice there’s no mention of healing) then how can they do any healing?
Confused as all get out….
proof not proff
I bow in awe an adoration to the Lord Christ whenever I watch him snatch a person from death, to life, in Holy Baptism and then it is great in the same Divine Service, watching the people of God proceed to the altar, kneel and there receive on their lips, the body and blood of Christ, for forgiveness, life and salvation. When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is doing amazing works of life-renewing forgiveness.
You’ve got to love the power of God in Word and Sacrament. Nothing else like it, nowhere, no how!!
All blessing, honor, thanks and praise to Father, Son and Spirit, the God who saved us by His grace, all glory to His merit! O Triune God, in heaven above, you have revealed your saving love, your blessed name, we hallow.”
Hey, if anyone is interested, there is a great edition of the Lutheran Confessions, called the “Reader’s Edition” — filled with great notes, introductions, etc. In other words, chocked full of Gospel/Jesus goodness!
Pastor McCain,
Wonderful word!
Where can we get the “Readers Edition”. ?
Michael,
Click on pastor McCain’s name
Kat,
In the Lutheran church, we pray for all of our sick by name every week. It is part of the liturgy (once again the liturgy keeps you on tract and protects you from a pastor who is more concerned about his agenda).
Michael,
“My only concern is that we don’t discount the fact that God still moves and still heals…even though the American church is indeed a mess.”
I have never doubted the fact that God moves and heals today. However, my understanding is more like that of Pastor McCains, that God moves in His Word and Sacraments which are right where He promised to meet us.
Yesterday when I was quoting James 5 for the proper understanding of healing in the church, I neglected to say that the biggest point in the passage is confession of sin. We see other places that sin is what makes us sick. To be healed, confess your sins and God will heal. However, the sickness is separation from God and the cure is eternity in heaven - not a longer leg.
I am sorry that what I said sounded like I think Dread is deliberately trying to participate in this fraud. I can tell that he actually believes it, and I don’t want to fault someone for believing something, no matter how unlikely it might be. I just couldn’t believe anyone would fall for it and I got carried away in my pronouncements. But seriously, who takes a picture of their own back prior to going to a healing meeting? And in the second picture she clearly does not have a straight, healthy back. So maybe JimB is right and God only healed part of her back, but I don’t think divine healing works by making you somewhat better. I remain totally unconvinced but you guys can believe whatever you want to believe. It doesn’t hurt me or affect my life in the slightest for people to believe this stuff. But I’m not going to join in our your praise fest, and I just feel like someone should stand up and say “baloney.” Sorry to rain on your parade.
I also noticed that the 2nd picture didn’t look like a real straight back but there’s a few things:
1. The lady said her pain was gone.
2. Dread knows this lady
3. I have no experience with scoliosis
4. I have no experience with divine healings
I hope it was a genuine healing, although I am perplexed that God would do it at a TB event. But God does things to perplex us all the time.
Well, I’m back from my parents’ house. No she bears on the way back, and the worst thing I was confronted with all day were a couple of drunk people at the party. I guess God doesn’t care if I mock the whole leg-growing scam.
The second back doesn’t look completely straight, but it looks a lot straighter than it did in the first picture. Since I don’t know anything about scoliosis either I don’t know if a person with scoliosis could change the appearance of their back as much as the woman’s back has changed in the two pictures.
As long as she is without pain and feels good, then I’m happy for her. If it turns out that it was all psychosomatic and it goes back to the way it was before then I will feel sorry for her and hope the disappointement is not overwhelming.
At any rate, God bless her no matter what happens.
God does care, Jessica, trust me.
If you seriously want to know why I think the way I do, look up “mockers” “mocking” and “mock” in the Bible. You *do not* meet the full description by a long shot.
I am truly impressed by the community here. You guys rock.
I feel like I’ve been through a “team building” experience with you all. I’m glad I returned!
***You *do not* meet the full description by a long shot.***
I guess I need to work harder.
Well mock Jesus on the cross and you’ll be where the majority of mentions of “mocking” are.
A VERY bad idea!
I have not nor will I ever mock Jesus on the cross.
I have, do, and will continue to mock the sham leg-growing scam “faith” “healers” so often perform. It’s hilarious and inherently mock-worthy.
Oh, and Koala’s joke is still funny.
Hi, I am basically a lurker, but I came across this thread last night, and I mentioned that I have scoliosis, too. Mine is kind of like the lady’s; I have an “S” shaped curve which causes my ribs, especially in my back, to bulge out like a hump. If I bend over it looks worse.
But for those of you who are indicating that her back does not look much different, let me just say that for me personally, there is NO WAY that I could move my back to make it look as straight as the second photo. If you look at the second photo, her spine is not curved anymore. She still has mild rib protrusion, but her back is definitely not as crooked as it was….
If she was not healed, then someone did a really good job with trick photography because I have actually looked at my back in the mirror and I cannot change its appearance to look straight. It’s just not possible.
I just thought I would share this since I do have scoliosis….I am happy for this lady.
A Friend
THANK YOU….I am kind of offended by any idea that she did something bogus here. Interesting thing you mention a rib protrusion….Here is an exact quote from her first letter to me…
“I have had scoliosis for 16 years, could have had a metal rod placed in my back to straighten it out, but opted not to…anyway, before we went, I felt that God wanted me to take a picture of my back, so I did. On our 3rd or 4th night there, God touched my body and began to dramatically shift and reshape my back! My spine straightened out, now my rib cage just has to finish the transition! I could not contortion myself to look even close to straight for all these years, so please believe that the miracle that happened to me is actually a tool to build faith in a God that proved physically that he exsists!!! ”
Notice what she herself says about her rib cage at that time.
Thank you for being happy for my friend…as opposed to those who call it bogus.
Rolph says.
“I just couldn’t believe anyone would fall for it and I got carried away in my pronouncements. But seriously, who takes a picture of their own back prior to going to a healing meeting?”
Rolph I know you do not want to offend but your apology is just as bad as your first statement… ‘fall for it’ … I KNOW HER Dave.
As for who takes a picture beforehand…
1. Someone who has faith and knows about people like yourself who will not believe it.
2. She explained why she did it with some detail, why not accept it?
As for saying ‘baloney’ and ‘raining on the parade’ and ‘keeping it real’ (per other thread)
Let me ask something quite directly.
What is your theory here. You have called it baloney and bogus and unbelievable. So what are you proposing? Do you think she is part of some conspiracy? Do you think she is trying to gain notoriety? Do you really think she falsified the whole thing? AND YOU REALLY CANNOT SEE THE PROFOUND CHANGE IN HER SPINE? Sheesh!
Now… Rolph you probably have more respect here than anyone else. If you are correct…I am going to openly admit it, I will expose it, and I will personally apologize to you… for being part of it.
But if you are wrong…you have spent a great deal of your credibility with your completely ungenerous assessment. So since you are keeping it real… TELL US WHAT YOU THINK THIS IS?
I was trying earlier today to see if I, as a person with a straight back, could stand in such a way that my back would look horribly curved similar to the woman in the picture. I never managed to look like anything except a person with a straight back standing funny.
I wonder if it would be possible for a person with scoliosis to do the opposite of what I tried to do and make their spine appear straight.
***If you look at the second photo, her spine is not curved anymore. She still has mild rib protrusion, but her back is definitely not as crooked as it was….***
Thank you for pointing that out. A rib protrusion would explain why her back still looks a little wonky eventhough her spine appears much straighter.
My young friend…
has no idea about the controversy over this. She has no clue that people are in an uproar over TB. She has no stake in this mess whatsoever. She is just a mother of a couple of kids, with a husband living in a small town who had a need and sought God (not Todd) to help her. She has received prayer at other times with no result. She is completely without any guile.
I sort of wish I left her out of this and just let her testify to people who will rejoice with her. She was already deeply hurt by a neighbor’s suggestion it was done by the devil.
Now this is worse the suggestion is obvious Rolph thinks she falsified the whole thing.
Hi Dread,
Part of the reason I posted my post is because I do have scoliosis and so when people were questioning it, it is likely because they do not really understand about it. As Jessica said, a person with a straight back cannot make their back look crooked. So it is the same with me. Mine is like a 45 degree curve, as I would assess your friend’s was, at least. So you just can’t make it go straight. It is a deformity. I am just like her in that I never wanted to have the surgery because they have to cut your spine open from top to bottom and put a rod in to straighten out your back. Then they fuse the rod at parts of your back. I knew this other girl who had the surgery, and then she fell and the rod came loose! I was terrified to ever do it, but I am always self-conscious in a bathing suit and I wear my hair long to hind my hump. My whole life I have always wished for a straight back…one day, in heaven my body will be perfect. As I said, I have had it prayed over but never been touched as your friend was. I praise God for what he did for her as it is really a drag to have this condition. She is truly blessed.
I am glad you posted this, Dread, because it is amazing to me and to my kids to see that our Lord God still does wonders. So please don’t regret putting it here.
AFriend,
You are great…your kids are blessed. TY.
15 users online and I am the last one to post… a silent hour?
What is up?
That about sums up the one thing that hurts the very most, “falsified it”. That pretty much sums up many folks view of me and anything I have ever done. It should not matter and it should not hurt but it does. So I do take the advice, I keep it to myself. Actually I dont think much on it and assume most of if not everything I do has some type of hidden alternative evil motivation that I am not aware of. At least in a spiritual sense.
I hope everyone has a nice forth of July
Everyone’s out looking at fireworks, Dread.
Dread,
I don’t know who is behind the pictures or what they are trying to do. But check out the angle of the second picture, especially as it aligns with the doorway. Then look at her shoulder blades in both pictures. If you look at those two factors you will see what is going on. But you can’t read someone’s mind in a picture. I’m sorry I even commented on this whole thing. Believe what you want to believe.
I think what bugs me is the assumption that the Lord would not work like this. How little faith we really have.
I worked with a woman who asked for prayer over a period of weeks because she had a cyst as large as one of her ovaries that needed to be removed. There was some danger of things worsening and as such, surgery was necessary. The day before the surgery, this woman went into the doctor’s office for a pre-op ultrasound to see if the cyst had shifted or grown and with both of them looking at the screen, the cyst was gone. Just like that, as if it had never been.
A short while later, this woman had a hysterectomy and that procedure was performed by the same doctor who was going to remove the cyst. He told her that her ovaries had no evidence of that large cyst at all.
I have no idea why the Lord chose to heal her of this but I am thankful that He did and as a result, do not doubt His power in performing healing as it suits Him, no matter what we think we know.
The second picture seems to be taken from a higher angle… no other difference and certainly no way to straighten the back by that method.
Like I said… I will find out and I will be straight up about it.
MLD,
You are making more sense, since I have seen the fireworks!
Hi Brian,
The only one who matters as far as our motives are concerned is God….I’m sure you know that. I guess we all have to just try to do what God has called us to do and be about our Father’s business, no matter what anyone thinks. I don’t think it’s possible to have some “evil motivation” that you are not aware of. If you are doing things for selfish ambition, that’s not good, but if your motives are pure, God knows. And that is what counts.
“I’m sorry I even commented on this whole thing. Believe what you want to believe.”
That sums up half of my serious posts lol. Which is why I spend more time being silly than serious.
Wondering if those who attributed much to Demons had their minds changed, or even questioned if demons could really do this? I am guessing not, Just like the Eschatology threads. Anyone go from one camp to the other? Guessing not.
I learned alot in the Eschatology threads BTW, and even went from one camp to undecided, but that was with offline communication and reading, not saying in any way they are not edifying, just seems that they ( I am especially guilty of this BTW) become a chance to crow our necks and strut like roosters.
Hey Michael,
I just saw Jerry Lee on “A Capitol Fourth” and thought of you. Did you happen to catch it?
Cock-a-doodle-doo! Hi Eric. Goodnight everyone.
KK!
Looks like Bentley has been taking lessons from Bill Clinton on how to parse his words in such a way to make it appear he’s saying one thing when he’s really not.
I came across this clip tonight. He is criticizing people ‘out there in heresy land’ regarding his previous documented statements about an encounter he said he had with a ‘female angel named EMMA.’
In his just released book, he changes the story completely around and removes the name EMMA altogether I believe, and turns the angel into a male angel.
See if you can detect what he intentionally does in this public statement about EMMA.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UukDxptR5WE
Scott
Todd does have many angelic encounters… it would be easy to mix them up… I do know that he has received advice to tone that bit down.
Am I the only one with a problem with all the baptisms tonight? There is no historical reference point for baptizing people without any connection to a local church… I know someone will pull out the Ethiopian …I get it…
However… baptizing without a local church… that is a dubious practice and very counterproductive to a man looking for support… Billy Graham always tells people to connect with a local church to get baptized.
Plus he had to baptize them all… this thing really is to Toddcentric.
He is making mistakes that will hurt him… he will make more.
BD, I think they would say that those baptisms are directly to Strader’s church (?)
With regards to the female angel EMMA, he’s telling a bold faced lie about it. In print and on video now. He gives the impression in the inflection of speech and pause in his sentence that there is NO female angel named EMMA. However, that’s not what he says in that clip and what he claims that people are accusing him of regarding this angelic encounter isn’t true either. This Guy is a very slick manipulator.
“15 users online and I am the last one to post… a silent hour?
What is up?”
Dread, This has become very uncomfortable for me to read. Many folks have their minds made up as to TB being a fraud. I have to admit I’m pretty much in that camp.
So we have a revival that is pretty much seen as a travesty by many of us, again, with me included.
Now there is “proof” that God did something miraculous there. That doesn’t make sense since God isn’t involved with a revival like this.
So what do people think? Obviously, a lot of different things. I hope the healing is real as that means a sister in Christ is no longer suffering with a very real condition. I have no problem that God heals supernaturally and I certainly have no idea when He decides to heal a person. I’ve heard stories He has healed non believers.
I attended a service over thirty years ago that was similar to Lakeland. We attended as we were invited by friends who wanted to see my wife healed from her arthritis, which was pretty bad. We thought she was healed but it turned out not to be. My father went the following month and the same thing happened.
My father died from the illness he thought he was healed from. My wife still has her arthritis. We struggled with things for a time but were fortunate that we weren’t devastated by the events. My wife radiates God’s love and she is at peace with her illness. My father died young but he never complained and never gave up the fight.
This thread and the topic of TB is important. In the midst of discussion, folks are going to be tempted to let ‘er rip with comments made from anger or frustration.
Tomorrow we will all wake up to live our lives, Lord willing. We have another day to allow God to teach us how to communicate with one another on a blog.
The world is going to hell in a hand basket. God doesn’t call us to be perfect but He does command us to love one another and to esteem others as better than ourselves. Some of us can end up pointing out specks and be blind to the plank. It’s not worth it. We all need to check our hearts in these matters and be open to correction from God’s Spirit. I believe none of us want to grieve the Spirit as we prove our points.
I hope you had a nice birthday. I honor you as a man two days my elder!
God bless!
Dread, I appreciate your right perspective on the local church emphasis. That is God’s main avenue of working out His purpose in the earth.
These men are diluting this reality by placing such an emphasis on God’s presence being tangible in a physical locality, a locality that is directly tied to them.
It’s insidious and dangerous. I heard that Wagner said that a team they sent out just returned from Seattle, WA where they went and “Opened the portals” in the heavenly realm over the city in order to prepare it for this ‘outpouring’. Just plain ridiculous, if you ask me, which of course you didn’t
Thanks Big E
Nice post… well said…
In truth for me this matter is very innocent… I gave the photos to Michael because he said he never saw proof of a real healing… The woman sent the photos to me and a few other friends and asked me for advice on responding to her neighbor at home.
Michael already noted that he asked for permission to make them public I got the permission.
Thankfully the lady has no idea she is being talked about. Like I hae said I will check it out clearly this weekend. It will be fine.
Now Scott
I just saw Todd deflect the issue … he is incessantly talking about his critics in the meeting. I believe he said that was another matter.
Honestly I do not trust him on it…. I do not think he has had nearly as many angelic encounters as he claims.
nuff said…
Dread, Have a nice weekend. God bless!
I think the dialog here since last night has been tremendous. I have appreciated the diversity of opinions expressed and thought patterns developed, etc.
It’s healthy to have a cross section like this. Where the whole crowd isn’t just a bunch of ‘yes men’ (and women). There’s no place like it on the web, at least that I know of.
As iron sharpens iron. Yet, at the end of the day we have a consensus around our love for the Lord and for one another. Whether this ladies testimony turns out to be exaggerated or not, in the end, the Lord Jesus is going to build His church and the gates of hell will not prevail!
Nice post, Scott. Ditto.
Well, the last one out, please turn the lights off
I gotta hit the hay. Good night to all!
Just spent three hours in the emergency room.
The plan was that Trey and I were going to go shoot his fireworks off, then we would go home in time for me to see Jerry Lee play the Capitol.
On the way to his moms car little man feel off a retaining wall and landed on his head on concrete.
I met them at the ER and prayed over him, then we waited as they felt he was hurt enough to merit a CT scan.
21/2 hours later the CT scan came back fine, then Trey turned on the TV and guess what was on and who was being introduced?
We rocked the RV Medical Center ER and went home praising God.
Happy Fourth…
Oh no
Praise God little man is ok.
Happy unconventional Fourth to you!
Nomans,
He has a concussion, but he’s going to be ok.
Now that it’s over, I may have a stroke.
No strokes for you Michael…
You have met your health trauma quota for the year.
I hope so!
Have a great night…time for me to collapse…
There are several observation I have with the photos.
In the first her right arm is way forward and she is leaning on the wall in front of her.(notice the towel or whatever that is on the wall in front of her.) If she was not leaning on the wall the grey towel could not be staying up. Putting her right arm forward and leaning against the wall in the 1st photo accentuated the curvature.I do believe she has a scoliosis but it is just being accentuated, and in the 2nd photo still remains.
Stand behind someone and have them do this-extend their right arm forward and lean to the right side. Notice her right arm is way more forward than the left. Anyone with a straight spine would appear to have a curvature.
In the second photo, her right arm is back at her side.
She still has scoliosis.
Why does she mention she was not able to keep her left arm at her side all her life, if in the 1st photo her right arm is further forward than her left??.
Concerned
“She still has scoliosis.” Tough crowd
Thank you for your diagnosis Dr Concerned.
Michael,
So grateful that Trey is going to be okay. Hope he’s feeling okay this morning. Prayers continue.
Dread,
Oh my goodness! Tough crowd indeed! This is all getting to the ridiculous stage, if not past it! To me, it’s enough that you say she’s healed…you know her after all. IF by some sad situation she had fabricated it, you could tell us later. In the meantime, I think it’s sad all the battling going on. The tone, to me, is that folk want her to be faking it…that’s so sad.
Don’t feel too bad, I mentioned my father’s healing and no one said a thing. Ahhh, my life on the “D” list! LOL!
Concussion…Trey? Exhaustion in every sense, Michael? You both need a well deserved rest and reprieve from every day life. I hope you get it very soon!
Give Trey and hug for me and tell him to give you a hug for me, too
Nomans…”You have met your health trauma quota for the year.” Truer words have seldom been spoken! We so need to pray for one another, don’t we?
Kat and Dread…
I agree with both of you. What is the danger in believing someone has been healed? Perhaps it is bringing up resentment for lack of healing in ourselves or our loved ones. God is sovereign and we don’t like it. We value not being duped over believing God in His Word. Hmmmmm…
Michael,
I’m glad you got to see Jerry Lee, but sheesh, you could’ve just stayed home to do that!
Praising God that Trey is O.K..
Some interesting thoughts on the the “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” mantra.
Don’t Touch the Lord’s Anointed!
In our fifth part of this series exposing the Super Apostles we look at their banning of questions and criticism.
Does the Bible really forbid Christians questioning their leaders? Can a Christian criticize a Christian leader, in love, if the leader is teaching something false? The Super Apostles would have us believe that Christians cannot “touch” them with questions or criticism because they are “the Lord’s Anointed”. Only God Himself is allowed to correct a Super Apostle.
Consider these words from a Super Apostle’s study, “It is important to realize that should your authority figures be in the wrong it is not your job to correct them. That job is reserved for the person to whom they are accountable for the responsibility they have been given. If that happens to be the Lord then we are to take our hands off the situation. Pray with an uncritical heart and trust Him to do His job.”
So is this scriptural? If the whole “Don’t Touch the Lord’s Anointed” catch cry is being used out of context, or if we can find New Testament examples of “lesser” Christians questioning “greater” Christians, then we can discount this teaching as false. So what does the Bible say?
The phrase “Don’t Touch the Lord’s anointed” comes from 1 Samuel chapter 24 and 26 where David refuses to kill Saul. The Super Apostles have taken this to mean that no one can question them, but they are taking the text out of context, the verse refers to killing Saul, not questioning him. In fact immediately afterwards David goes on to publicly question Saul’s motives both in 1 Samuel 24:8-15 and 26:18-20.
Now in the New Testamnt Paul said he was the least of all the apostles in 1 Corinthians 15:9 “For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” Yet in Galatians 2:11 Paul the lesser publicly corrects Peter the greater “When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.” This one example from Scripture of the lesser correcting the greater is enough to nullify the Super Apostles’ assertion.
Read Galatians 6:1a “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently.” Notice it does not read “you who are MORE spiritual” or “you who are GREATER”. Also consider Acts 17:11, “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” The Bible says it is more noble for us to verify a leader’s teaching. I bet Paul would not have minded questions at all.
So why have the Super Apostles invented this rule? Could it be that they are unable to answer questions, and so as a defense have outlawed the very act of questioning itself?
Christian leaders should always be open to questions. If a leader’s teaching does not match up with Scripture, then surely they would want to know, since nothing should scare a leader more than teaching error. The ability for laity to ask questions, and publicly criticize if need be, is a healthy mechanism to protect the Body of Christ from error.
Finally, leaders need to remember that their claimed “anointing” or authority level does not make what they say automatically true; the correct measure of Christian truth is Scripture. If it disagrees with Scripture your teaching is wrong, period.
OK,
Has anyone here ever really met a real angel? Not a dream etc, but the angel approached you and said “hi I’m Ralph”
Now TB is in to fairy tales.
Scott,
That was really “annointed” teaching. Thanks for providing that.
MLD,
Nope, no angel talk here.
Scott
Cut and paste that comment into the open blogging section today when it comes up. That is a great issue.
Two things,
First, we do not really know why David felt this way. I do not think it is explained. That alone is worthy of discussion.
Second, there is no precedent for following that credo when dealing with ministers. In fact the Biblical evidence is pretty clear on that point. There must be two witnesses to authenticate an accusation.
I was hit with that last week by a couple of church members who were keen to have me line up with TB.
Paul did not pull out that line when challenged by the Corinthians. In fact I know of no NT figure who does pull that one out. Heck Saul did not even pull it out. David simply held it.
I guess people haven’t read my post–I have scoliosis, and as I told Dread, it is simply not possible to make your back look as different as the photos are. No matter how you stand, whether your arm goes forward or backward. I have a hump on my back and it wouldn’t matter how I positioned my arms—my back could NEVER look like the second photo.
I’m just stating this as I have a fairly similar scoliosis, and to me, the healing is absolutely real, irregardless of T.B.
Also, it would be hard for me to believe that a woman who went for prayer could possibly be healed by Satan–so to me, this is the work of our Lord Almighty. I honestly don’t know that Satan could even do something like this, but even if he could, why would Satan heal someone if he knew God would be the one she would glorify?
Anyway, this post is just for the people who are convinced she’s a fraud. I just don’t think it’s possible.
Scott:
“Christian leaders should always be open to questions. If a leader’s teaching does not match up with Scripture, then surely they would want to know, since nothing should scare a leader more than teaching error. The ability for laity to ask questions, and publicly criticize if need be, is a healthy mechanism to protect the Body of Christ from error.”
I like it but I think what prevents it from working well is our whole culture has very little respect for each other. “Trash talk” prevails everywhere.
Unlike the early church where there were no bibles or common written texts of the scriptures, we have them everywhere available for all to read and study from. This changes the pastor’s position greatly.
Should the pastor today be more of a guide or facilitator of the scriptures and their study or do we go and sit moon eyed and listen to his study and opinions on scriptures.
It is a tough call in today’s culture. I for one believe one of the best ways is to just go through the scriptures and let the people read and see for themselves.
The real goal is to help people get the word into them so when the winds kick up the waves we will have a Savior in our boat who can calm the seas.
Drew
Drew,
That is why the liturgy is so important. It guides the Divine Worship Service so that the points are covered. It is not up to the pastor. The pastor gets 15 min or so for a sermon - how much damage can he do with such a small part of the service.
Now, when a pastor is not restricted by any historical/traditional form, well anything can happen. I have seen pastors who control the whole service, chooses the songs to be sung, says all the prayers and speaks for 45-60 min. That my friend is an agenda and I would be concerned.
That is part of the TB problem - what controls him or what are his guidelines? how does anyone evaluate whether error has entered?
If the whole congregation says the creed together, it would be interesting to see the pastor then turn around and teach an opposing view. The solution, get rid of the creed (or any other offending part of the liturgy.)
Michael,
I apologize for coming in late to this discussion AND for not having the time to read through everyone’s comments. My two cents may have already been addressed.
I think the scripture is clear that just because a miracle has occurred it does not automatically follow that it was the One True God who performed the miracle.
The scriptures are clear about this.
Matt. 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
We cannot and must not separate Bentley’s doctrine from his ‘miracles’. Since, the miracle recorded here was supposedly performed by Bentley and Bentley’s doctrine is false and demonic, we MUST conclude that it was NOT Jesus who performed this ‘miracle’. Instead, this was the type of Satanic miracle that Jesus and Paul warned us about.
Hi Chris,
Great job with the Pirate Radio project. Thanks for helping get Todd and Jeff back up and running.
I sent you an email about your show - are you getting the achieves up?
Thanks again - so far the programing has been outstanding
Dear Chris,
Aren’t all of these people that are following T.B. giving glory to our God? Aren’t they praising Jesus for it? That is where I get confused about the scriptures you quoted. To me, it would seem like they refer to false prophets who get people to follow them and NOT our God. This lady who got healed is not giving glory to anyone but our God. So that is where it is confusing….
Chris I appreciate your humble disclaimer but I do no think that you even read the article which contained specifically this womans personal testimony of healing apart from Todd Bentley.
I agree with your Scripture but did you to stop to ponder and maybe even pray whether or not the Matt. 24 Scripture even applies in this case? (This woman and not Todd Bentley)
You are quite dogmatic and absolute in your assertions about what happened to this woman.
Beliive me I am dogmatic and absolute about the Scripture itself but want to be careful in applying it to specific situations.
Dread, will do. Of course, I didn’t write that piece. However, I thought it would be a good point of discussion, because to a great extent, the mindset is what is at the root of this new “Apostolic Reformation”, as Wagner calls it.
It’s a top down hierarchal system that seeks to “Lord it over the people.” It’s nothing new, it’s been around since the fall. Didn’t Jesus Himself say that this is a system of rule that the Gentiles utilize?
I’m posting here another perspective on this same subject from the same man who wrote the previous article on cultwatch.com:
The Super Apostles claim the New Testament Church was run by a governmental system, and that system was a Theocracy. The Super Apostles desire to “restore” Theocracy to the modern Church, with themselves, of course, at the head.
The Oxford Dictionary defines Theocracy as “A form of government by God or god directly through a priestly order”.
An actual Super Apostle applies this Theocracy idea by building his church’s one over one structure thus: “God the ultimate source of all authority”, over “Jesus Christ the head of the Church”, over “Pastor [Name Removed] - Apostolic ministry under the headship of Jesus Christ”, over “Local Pastor - Under delegated authority of Pastor [Name Removed]“, over “Local Eldership - Plurality, co equality of eldership as far as persons but not as far as divine ability and gifting and experience are concerned”, over “Ministry overseers, department leaders - i.e. youth, children, cell groups, worship team, ushers, security etc.”, over “Cell leaders”.
As keen as the Super Apostles are on their beloved Theocracy they face formidable opposition from Scripture, Matthew 20:25-28 “Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave– just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” See also Mark 10:42-43 and Luke 22:25-26.
The Book “Damaged Disciples” by Ron & Vicki Burks was a by-product of the first wave of Mind Control that swept the Church in the Seventies. It has this to say regarding Matthew 20:25-28, “The word translated ‘to lord it over’ appears in Matthew 20:25-26, Mark 10:42-43, Luke 22:25-26, and in Peter 5:2-3. Actually the word does not suggest oppression or abuse of power. It simply means ‘to rule over’ or ‘to be lord over.’ Coercion or the abuse of authority is not the issue here. What is being said is that there is among the Gentiles a hierarchical system of authority that is not to be imitated in the Christian community.” (Also the book “Studies in New Testament Language and Text” edited by J. K. Elliot backs up this explanation)
Our online article concludes, in part, that there is not enough evidence from Scripture to support or exclude any particular type of Church governmental structure. It is as if this issue, so important to men, is of little consequence to God, except that a one over one Theocratic structure is specifically banned.
So, in summary, our Super Apostle friends need Theocracy to be the only option for running the Church, but not only do they fail to prove that Theocracy is essential, their Theocratic aspirations also come to grief on the teeth of Scripture. The fact that the Bible forbids one over one authority structures should be enough for us to discount the Super Apostles completely.
MLD: Interesting on reading the creed and then teaching an oppposing view. In my Mom’s church they read a creed and then the pastor speculates on why Universalism might be true in avery subtle way.
I spent an hour conversing calmly with my mom explaining why I understood how the pastor might be tempted to fell that way but then elaborated how it is totally inexcusable and how it actually denies the purpose and woek of atonement.
Nice try but error abounds everywhere.
I shook hands and gave hugs to a group of God’s anointed at E-fest.
IJn. 2:20
MLD,
We’re working on getting all of our programming in a format that people can download or play on their iPods.
Thanks.
Good Morning Everyone-
Chris, the other day I listened to your show about your meeting with RW. I really enjoyed listening to your views and comments. Thank you for focusing on being Christ-centered and cross-focused. Blessings
Martin Luther’s Disciple wrote, “That is part of the TB problem - what controls him or what are his guidelines? how does anyone evaluate whether error has entered?”
MLD, that is not just a TB problems, this is a problem throughout the church.
Good morning…
Chris,
Let me second MLD’s comments about the new “Issues, Etc.”
In short: great job. It’s so great to hear Todd and Jeff unencumbered without the LCMS baloney. They’ll be able to speak the truth, and I know they’ll do it in a “middle ground” type of way that they’ve been talking about on the air.
Kudos!
Kat,
I’m glad your father was healed. My father died of cancer before age 50. We called a priest and prayed for him. I am truly happy for you.
Michael,
Thank God little Trey is okay. Praying for the little guy’s sore head today.
Chris,
First, let me join the chorus thanking you for your part in the return of “Issues Etc”.
I’m downloading the podcasts daily with no problems.
As to the healing…
We have debated whether or not healing would fall under the “lying signs and wonders”.
I have raised the possibility, but I’m not sure that we can be dogmatic on the point.
A Friend,
You stated, “Aren’t all of these people that are following T.B. giving glory to our God? Aren’t they praising Jesus for it? That is where I get confused about the scriptures you quoted. To me, it would seem like they refer to false prophets who get people to follow them and NOT our God.”
Jesus is VERY clear that false christs and false prophets will come to us “IN JESUS NAME” (Matthew 24:5)
For instance, the Mormons claim to believe in Jesus Christ and give glory to the God of the Bible. But, they’ve redefined who Jesus is and who God is. They use the exact same words that we do but they’ve poured different and idolatrous meanings into those words.
I’ve studied Bentley’s theology and even though he uses all the same words that we use he does NOT mean the same things. Furthermore, he utterly fails the Biblical tests provided for us in the scriptures for determining whether or not a person is a true or false prophet. http://www.alittleleaven.com/2008/05/todd-bentley-th.html
Therefore, I dogmatically and unapologetically conclude that Bentley is a false prophet who teaches false doctrine who has come ‘in the name of Jesus’. The ‘miracles’ that are being performed, even if they happen to be real, are not done by the One True God and the One True Jesus Christ of the scriptures. The True Holy Spirit would NEVER work through a man who promotes a false and heretical counterfeit “christianity”.
Chris,
I agree about Bentley…but we need to ask “can Satan heal”?
I’m not convinced…
vic,
That was my point - the liturgy saves you from the bad teaching. You can compare the creed to the teaching and see which is correct.
However, I don’t know where the creed would lead anyone to preach on universalism since that is not it’s topic.
What I am saying is that if you follow the liturgy you will see the following
1.) A people gathered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
2.) The recognition of our sin, personally and corporately.
3.) Hearing the absolution from your sins.
4.) Who God is as stated in all 3 of the eccumentical creeds.
5.) Who God is and His kingdom in the Lord’s prayer.
6.) The resurrected Christ in the Hymns
7.) God’s Law and God’s Gospel in the readings of God’s Word.
8.) The communion of saints and forgiveness of sins in the Lord’s supper.
9.) Prayer for the saints inn the church.
After all of that, you may hear some heresy from your pastor - but it is in a minor portion and goes against every other part of the service.
Now, in non liturgical and non confessional churches, you face the possibility of 1 full hour of the pastor’s agenda, with nothing else off setting.
And to all, error is possible in any church. But we were talking about what controls or limits TB - apparently even his handlers can’t control him.
Well
Rosebrough has spoken
We are so glad to have the true arbiter of orthodoxy in our midst.
Your proclamation is far reaching.
For anyone who has not noticed, there is other programing at Pirate Radio besides Issues etc.
Good solid teaching and discussion.
MLD: My point. The creed did not save her from the bad teaching. 25 years or more of the creed. No ability to discern.
Yes I have had numerous conversations with my Mom. There are confessions and other evidences she is regenerate.
End Point: Risks in any system. We are in a Spiritual battle.
Chris,
Just watched the video you posted of TB (9:28 am), and there are many, many very famous, well-liked (very successful) pastors who do that very same thing every week. Is any person who behaves in such a way a false prophet?
Issues Inc. is already on iTunes.
MLD. how many liturgical folks are watching Bentley and buying into it in spite of creeds and a controlled liturgical service?
Lack of discernment is an equal opportunity seducer.
Remember, it wasn’t TB who prayed for the lady, it was a woman. If this woman was a Christian and if God loved the young lady (which of course He does), He could have healed her.
We can say that if *we* were God we would not have chosen to heal her at such a place as Todd’s circus from hell, especially since it seems to mess with our air-tight case against him, but God did not ask for our advice.
MLD: BTW I love liturgical services. I get a lot out of them. That is because I already know the substance of what they emphasize and reference.
Michael,
I know that being dogmatic is not a very popular thing now-a-days.
The reason I am dogmatic about Bentley being a false prophet is because he utterly fails the simple tests given to us in the scriptures for testing prophets.
Go to this page http://www.alittleleaven.com/false_prophets/index.html
There are two YouTube videos posted. One has audio of Bentley being told by god to get people to believe in an angel rather than Christ.
The other has video of Bentley failing the Biblical test of a prophet given to us in Deut 18.
When we turn the emotions off and objectively look at just those two pieces of evidence we MUST conclude that Bentley is a false prophet and a false teacher and that his miracles are not done through the work of THE Holy Spirit but instead are done through an UNHOLY Spirit.
I know that I appear to be simplistic and black and white about Bentley. However, I think God has given us simple tests regarding prophets and Bentley fails them miserably. Therefore, we must side with the scriptures and the clear words that God has given to us in order to protect and defend the church from this false prophet.
I am also one who is purposefully seeking to learn from liturgical high church practices and the reasons why they were implemented.
Purpose Driven Liturgical Learner vic,
Vic,
Creeds don’t save. Jesus alone does that.
But creeds are one element that keeps churches on the straight and narrow. If the pastor’s a doctrinal nitwit, well, then it’s called Creeds 1, Pastor 0. It also might be a sign to find a new church, if the pastor inserts moronic comments like you mentioned! The creed, seems to me, is doing its job.
In a case like you mentioned, I’d probably put on my running shoes and find another church (after meeting withi the pastor privately), if he’s advocating heresy. The major creeds are true carriers of Christian orthodoxy and have a good and solid place in regular worship. Don’t blame the creeds or lack of them for human idiocy.
Why do you think so many low church groups and sects go off the deep end? They have no idea of what’s come before them. They think they’re the first group to get it right. Without creeds and confessions, it’s easier to “reinvent the wheel.”
Chris,
I’ve been very dogmatic about Bentley.
What I can’t be dogmatic about at this point is a doctrine that says Satan has healing ability.
That…we need to think through much more carefully.
Michael,
Glad to hear your little guy is OK!
Lutheran,
Thank you and everyone for the kind words.
It was scary, but he’s going to be fine.
Greetings in Christ to all,
This is a very interesting conversation. Thanks for it.
Somebody asked me where they could find a copy of the special edition of the Lutheran Confessions I referred to earlier in this thread.
Here it is: Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions
http://www.cph.org/concord
In Christ,
Pr. McCain
Wowsers, I just went and read the through the comments section of the thread that Chris posted. Talk about a tough crowd! This place is tame compared to that
BTW, my comments are not meant to denigrate the substance of what anyone shared there. I’m just making an observation.
With regards to this whole subject. Didn’t Jesus Himself say that an Adulterous and evil generation seeks after signs? And in the context of that statement, what kind of signs were they asking him to perform?
My apologies, that URL is incorrect. It should be:
http://www.cph.org/concordia
Solus Christus,
You asked, “Just watched the video you posted of TB (9:28 am), and there are many, many very famous, well-liked (very successful) pastors who do that very same thing every week. Is any person who behaves in such a way a false prophet?”
My opinions really don’t carry any weight nor can they nor should they bind Christian consciences. Our consciences are only bound to the clear teachings of scripture because the scriptures are the very Words of God.
That being the case the only way to answer your question is to look at the Biblical tests given for prophets.
One test is found in Deut 18:20-22. It states…
Deut 18:20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
The other test is found in Deut 13:1-5. It states…
Deut. 13:1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God..
So, according to God’s Word (NOT MY OPINIONS I’m just a man) what are we supposed to conclude about any pastor, preacher or prophet who claims to be speaking by the Spirit of God who completely gets his ‘predictions’ wrong or who tells us to believe in false doctrine?
Michael,
Thanks for the clarification. I think Deut 13:1-3 helps here.
Deut. 13:1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
What do you make of this passage as it relates to TB?
Babylon’s Dread,
Can you help me understand your point of view? You said that my proclamations are far reaching. Can you clarify your position? How are they far reaching?
vic,
I didn’t say that the creeds save. The creeds are a part of the liturgy and the liturgy itself doesn’t save. What it does is keep the Divine Worship Service on track and does not allow the pastor to take it down ‘bunny trails’ (except perhaps for his 15 min)
At my church, wh