Ed Stetzer is a well-known missiologist and author, his most recent book being Compelled by Love, co-written with pastor and church planter Philip Nation.
The co-authors have been on a blog tour as of late to promote and discuss their book, answer questions about the book and the subjects it addresses, and also speak with any commenters on that particular website.
This week, the blog community of From the Ashes and Phoenix Preacher are please to have Nation and Stetzer come here and discuss their work with you!
Here is a summary of Compelled by Love from the book's website:
Missional and love are two words that need to be spoken together. Love is one of the key ideas taught in scripture. In fact, God describes himself as love in 1 John 4:8. As that is the case, it is essential to seek an understanding of love if we are to live like Christ - especially if we are going to join him on his mission.
Missional is a new word to many readers. Simply defined, it is living like a missionary no matter where you are in the world – home or foreign field – focused on and living for the mission of God. We believe that the church needs to take on a missional attitude in our ever-increasingly unchurched culture. But, just as we would send out missionaries to foreign lands to love the people and lead them into a relationship Christ, we must fulfill both parts of the equation as well.
Compelled by Love has been written to reorient people to the biblical portrait of love in the heart of God, the establishment of the church, and the formation of individual believers. When the ethic of “love” is combined with the attitude of “missional” in the church, believers will follow after the mission of God.
You may purchase the book at your local bookstore or through Amazon.
The rest of the lead article of this thread will be a question-and-answer format. Stetzer and Nation took the time to answer 15 questions about the book and related issues, four of those from PP readers.
After reading their answers, you can discuss and comment in the comments field. Both men will step by one or both of the blogs as their schedule permits in the next few days, so don't hestitate to interact with them!
Now, on to the Q&A.
What led both of you to write on this specific topic - living one's life in a missional sense, with a mindset of love for neighbors, coworkers and anyone else one sees in their part of the world?
Ed: First, let me thank you for allowing us some time with the readers of the Phoenix Preacher Blog.
We saw a need for Compelled by Love because so much of the missional material available to church leaders dealt with practice rather than motivation. In fact, much of my previous writings have dealt with the need to find our way out of the milieu of traditionalism and back to contextual Gospel ministry. To do that, the church must have the proper motivation. Love stands as one of the propelling forces for the church. We don’t think it is a mistake that the scripture says that “Christ’s love compels us” and “we should no longer live for ourselves.” (2 Corinthians 5). That is key to missional living.
Philip: We also wrote on this topic to give average Christians an entry-way into missional living. For the most part, the books and conferences highlighting missional living are directed toward pastors and church planters. We thought it would be helpful to give all Christians an accessible book about missional living.
Missional is defined differently by various Christian groups. What is your definition?
Ed: To put it simply, I define it as living as one who is sent. Jesus was sent by the Father and then he sent us (John 20:21). In more complex terms, missional means applying missiological principles to any and every context in order to more easily communicate the Gospel.
The terms like missio de,and incarnational are helpful and I use them all the time. But at its core, it is about sentness.
Is love for one's neighbor, and/or city, and the people in that city, the key factor in having a missional mindset?
Philip: Not completely, but it has major implications.
Love is a key to missional living because God reveals himself in terms of love (1 John 4:8). The primary responsibility of believers is to glorify God so our lives should deeply reflect his love.
When this is applied to living out our faith, love becomes a necessity because of the object of the mission – sinful people and a lost and hurting world. It will take a great deal of love to make the sacrifices necessary to reach a neighborhood, community, or city with the Gospel.
Ed: As Philip has said, love is necessary. But we would both be quick to say that it is a portion of God’s glory and revelation of himself to us. We are called to love in a myriad of ways and, therefore, love must be properly understood as serving others in Jesus’ name (Luke 4 ministry) and seeking man’s redemption for God’s glory (Luke 19:10 comes to mind).
Are you telling us, in Compelled by Love, that each of us should act as missionaries to the part of the world we live in and/or are called to, whether that’s our hometown or some place in Africa?
Ed: Yes – that is exactly what we are saying. Now, we know that there is a technical definition of a missionary, so I don’t want to get stuck there. But, it is the missionary impulse that we need.
Most of our churches have grown accustomed to a definition of missions as “somewhere over there.” Now, the Western church must see its cities and countries as a mission field.
On page 56, you reference people who are losing faith in the church and see it not as a place of love but of judgment. On this blog, there are people who can tell you stories of different kinds of abuse they received at the hands of fellow churchgoers and church leaders. What can we do to make our churches places of love, not abuse and pain, for believers and nonbelievers alike?
Philip: I have been in church my entire life and know that we as believers have often failed in the arena of love. It simply comes down to the type of service we are willing to render. Christ could not have been clearer when he called us by his own example to serve rather than be served (Mark 10:42-45).
When we are willing to fulfill the law of Christ and bear one another’s burdens, then abusive relationships in congregational life will become a distant memory. But as long as we demand our own needs be met first, then abuse will continue. All of our churches could use a season of self-examination and repentance. As we allow the Spirit to uncover our self-centeredness, then we can learn to live for the spiritual needs of members and the lost.
Ed: I preached last Sunday from Jesus’ parable about the wheat and the weeds—and how they two are indistinguishable until later on. So, there are a lot of people in the world who look like and talk like Christians but do some pretty ungodly things.
Three things come to my mind:
First, we need a realistic expectation that there will be hurt and pain. That is part of being in community with others. They hurt you and I am guessing that I have hurt many people because I am sinful and fallen. The church is a mess and will remain one.
Second, we have to make it “not O.K.” to call yourself a Christian and be a jerk, not love the hurting, and not show and share Christ. We have made this religious bargain that if you hold to right beliefs and hate your neighbor, you are orthodox. You’re not.
Third, I think churches need to restore internal accountability through church discipline. You cannot be a scriptural church if you cannot practice church discipline.
If I realize that I don't have that love for others you talk about in the book, should I question my salvation or affirm it and try to get 'on track' and ask God to fill me with that love for others?
Ed: We need this question to be asked on an individual basis. As you read 1 John 3 & 4, it is clear that believers love and when love is absent then we are walking in darkness. As a person reads Compelled by Love, we hope they will allow a scriptural examination to take place as to the state of their soul. If they are outside the kingdom of God, then repent and believe in Christ as the Messiah.
Do you really think the culture is "waiting to be embraced by love"? (p. 17)
Philip: My short answer is an emphatic “yes.” Think of the best-selling books of the moment: The Twilight Saga, The Last Lecture, A New Earth, &The Shack. Much of pop-culture, politics, and the arts constantly swirl around the emotional idea of love with its personal effects. As believers, we have experienced the only true love from God himself. As the Lord has “set eternity in the hearts of men,” then we should aim friends and neighbors in the direction of the one who can fully solve their inner longing.
How would implementing the missional mindset you suggest change the way many evangelical churches operate, including those that emphasize verse-by-verse/expositional teaching; programs to attract believers and nonbelievers alike; and practice such traditional methods of evangelism as passing out tracts, crusade-style evangelism, street witnessing, etc.?
Ed: Well, if you have read any of my earlier books, you probably know I have opinions on all of those things. But, the change that we suggest changes the hearts of the people rather than dealing with methodological change. But, I believe there will be both.
God is using all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people. I tend to be pretty generous in some of these areas, trusting that God is guiding individual churches to the unique expression he has called them to.
That being said, I think some of our methods have produced consumers and consumers can be some pretty unloving people when their needs are not being met. On Sunday, I told my church (a little over 3000 attendees on Sunday) that big shows produce consumers that throw a few bucks in the offering plate and then complain they are not getting the show they wanted. I called them to be involved in small things (preaching from the parable of the mustard seed and the yeast). I think that small face-to-face ministry has to be a part of any of the things you mentioned above… and, if it is not, we produce a show and not a ministry.
By operating with a compelled love as described in 2 Corinthians 5, the change occurring first will be that of perspective towards other people. We will view them as people in need of mercy rather than interlopers wanting to change the way we “do church.”
Philip: In planting my current congregation, I had to change many of my perspectives. Like many ministers (and unlike my pagan-background friend Ed), I grew up in church, went to a Christian college, straight to seminary, and right into full-time ministry. Once I entered the world of church planting, my family was no longer safely inside the Christian sub-culture. Unless we took upon a merciful attitude toward outsiders to the kingdom of God, we would have given up early and gone back to a brick and mortar bunker-mentality congregation. Missional living moves beyond stylistic preferences and seeks to discover the best method to reach a neighbor with the power of the Gospel.
Like Jonah, we can become angry at the world and self-centered in not wanting to get out of the 'safety' of the Christian bubble. Why should we have a caring, redeeming and forgiving attitude towards the world?
Philip: For the greatest reason of all – Christ will be glorified when we lift up his name to the nations of the earth and call them to the salvation he offers. Beyond that lofty reason, there is a more personal one – because God left the splendor of his heavenly realm to show care toward us. As I have said to our church many times, God’s mission included reaching you with his mercy but it did not end with you. He has now invited us to join him in the work as he makes his appeal through us (2 Corinthians 5:20).
From Eric: Do you think that the Emerging/Missional church is a combination of the Lutheran ideal of being a missionary to your neighbor, and the evangelical ideal of sharing your faith through active evangelism?
Ed: Hi Eric. Love that question.
Let me leave off the “emerging” since that adds another element. But, Lutherans were way ahead on missional ideas. It was a Lutheran, Georg Viceodom, who helped shape many of these ideas.
The article is here:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-1287608_ITM
The article explained:
It was another German missiologist, Georg F. Vicedom, who has the honour of having developed the concept of missio Dei in a way that seems to be consistent with the more classical missiology that preceded Willingen, and quite different from the more radical missiology that, under the same label, was worked out during the 1960s. In his book Missio Dei, Vicedom emphasizes that mission is God's work from beginning to end. God is the acting subject in mission. However, Vicedom does not thereby exclude the church from the mission of God but includes it: "The mission, and with it the church, is God's very own work". (8) Both the church and the mission of the church are "tools of God, instruments through which God carries out His mission. (9)
In other words, it was a Lutheran who wanted to ground the idea of the missio dei in a Biblical understanding of mission. That is key today. (see my blog series on this here: http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/the-meanings-of-missional.html).
You will see missio dei instruction in Missouri Synod Lutheran schools. At one Concordia they say,
THY 572 Missio Dei - 3 credits
Based upon Jesus' announcement of the Good News of the Kingdom of God, this course develops a Lutheran theology of mission that motivates Christians to proclaim the kingdom. It builds an understanding of the mission among the lost and hurting. Resources will include the Bible, the Lutheran Confessions, and missiological texts.
And, this is not new. Lutherans have been talking about the missio dei long before the modern missional movement.
So, yes. It is a combination of some of those ideas.
Missional living is an emphasis on the personal responsibility of each believer to show and share the good news of the gospel and the Kingdom.
From Eric: Could it be this new move of God toward Missional thinking is His way of showing us what He meant when He walked the earth?
Ed: I want to be careful about presuming upon the mind of God. I believe that the missional thinking we currently engage in is a continuation of what God has been doing for a long time. It is arrogant to think that, because we have a new word, we have discovered a new idea. We are just joining Jesus in His mission and people have been doing that a long time.
Now, I like what you ask because I think it does relate to the Kingdom of God, which was exceedingly evident when Jesus walked on the earth.
The early church operated in an openly hostile culture to Christianity and therefore had to live differently and took their faith more seriously. In our current day, we have too often been softened by Judeo-Christian society which has led us to believe everyone either believes or at least understands the claims of the gospel.
Missional thinking today is helping us to relearn Christ’s manner of incarnationally living his truth among neighbors. Eugene Peterson’s paraphrase of John 1:14 in The Message remind us of that purpose– “The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood.” Missional thinking will ensure that we recognize the neighborhood in which we live.
From brian: The 21st century has given us a view of the world that was not possible before; the universe we view is not the same as when the Bible was written. Given our modern view how do we engage the younger generation who have many questions of origins, relevance, truth, and shall I say, have the most important human need, love?
Ed: I am currently finishing my next book regarding the younger generation entitled Lost and Found: The Younger Unchurched and Churches that Reach Them. Through my work on it and Compelled by Love, I have found that the questions the younger generation has now are similar to the questions which all generations have held out in the past. The difference lies in how they process information and prioritize issues.
Moving into their thought patterns is at the very least difficult for people of our generation (Last year, I crossed the threshold into my 40’s and Philip is right behind me). But, it can also be completely frustrating because this younger generation actually enjoys holding competing truth claims in their minds as equal to one another.
We will simply need to realize that they are farther from God than previous generations; much more like Mars Hill than Jerusalem.
Philip: I would add that we need to take hold of the younger generation’s stated desire to “save the world.” Every week, we hear about a new initiative to save the planet, save the environment, solve world hunger, end genocide, and the like.
The church should be the one entity on earth that cries the loudest for justice. In fact, we should weep when it is absent.
As we engage this generation, the majority who do not know Jesus, we can reach them through the relevant means of declaring justice as important to the God who authored it. Such a declaration will persuade them to Christ and open eyes to their sinful estate.
From Tim: I'm wondering if the authors could describe what they feel like the difference is between "missional" and "emergent/emerging."
Ed: Hello Tim and thanks for the loaded question. Grin!
Missional is a missionary perspective regarding Christian living. As I have said, it is “living sent.”
Emergent is a “conversation” (see “movement”) among different kinds of churches, some of which I find orthodox and some of which I do not.
Here is what I wrote in my book, Breaking the Missional Code:
The “emerging church” movement is a dynamic movement and worth understanding if a church takes serious the idea of breaking the missional code. Emerging doesn’t necessary mean missional, nor should we confuse missional as necessary meaning emerging. Churches can be missional and never be referred to or seen as part of the emerging conversation. On the other hand many emerging churches reflect wonderfully what it means to be a missional church, while other emerging churches like many traditional or more program churches have very little in common with what we are referring to as missional.
One of the challenges to understanding the emerging church like so many of our church expression it can’t be put into a neat box. To understand the emerging church we must avoid our temptation to lump them all together and to assume they represent one of two extremes—and some evil movement within the church or the salvation of the church. There are serious concerns about some segments of the emerging church. Thus, while we do embrace the desire of churches to connect with emerging culture, we do think that must be done without compromising the faith.
When we talk about missional churches we are not referring to a certain form, expression, model, type, or category of church… the issue is not what kind of church are you: modern, post-modern, seeker, emerging, traditional, house, etc.
So, I would say that a lot of churches called “emerging” would be far from “missional” in many communities. However, there are a lot of great emerging churches engaging their communities in missional ways.
I probably could say a lot more on that, but that would probably send the conversation another direction. In the next few days I will release a research paper on the subject as well.
From Victorious: How would you adjust church planting expectations, strategies and actions in an area such as Western Europe where you are most likely not going to enjoy the labors of those who have gone before you but are going to have to break up fallow ground and lay a foundation?
Ed: “Victorious” – now that’s a screen name!
I was just in Barcelona this Spring and will be in Krakow and Rome in the Fall. It is tough soil. You are not calling people “back” to church.
Let me say that I always avoid giving missiological advice in a culture I do not know. So, I am not sure about the specifics.
I would say that, generally, church planters in Western Europe should expect to labor longer in order to see disciple-making fruit. However, they can also expect to find a blanker canvas on which to paint the gospel. The population of Western Europe is a place where patient workers can hope to see a great production of disciples as they begin at Genesis and work people through God’s redemptive history.
(Last question) Without giving away too much of the book, what are some suggestions you have for people to become missional within their spheres of influence?
Ed: I would be remiss if I did not say that we should return to our first love. As I finished Compelled by Love, I was forced to think through the issues on an intensely personal level. My family had just moved to Nashville and we were putting down roots in a new community. As I did then, I would ask the reader to examine what they love and why. Missional living should choose to love a neighbor or coworker enough to put down relationship roots in their life. I hope that our readers will survey their personal relationships to ensure the Gospel has a clear path to every person they know.
Philip: Compelled by Love was born out of personal ministry; not vocational ministry. I would want to ask your readers one question: “when your neighbors or coworkers think about who they want to hang out with on the weekend, is it you?” In looking at the life of Christ, he was the man who sinners, tax collectors, and the infirmed wished they could be near. As his ambassadors, our homes should be the refuge of the hurting and our lives should be a comforting presence of the gospel’s power to the saved and compelling conviction to the lost. Missional living comes down to a personal investment into your own community. Where do you stand with the people who live around you every day?
Thanks again for allowing us to visit with you and your readers. I hope our book and this discussion will encourage them to living missionally in every arena of life.
Philip will be by to interact more when this is posted. Ed is speaking the morning of the 13th at a pastors conference at Liberty but will try to drop by between flights.
This thread is double-posted at FTA.
That was not previously announced but is a backup, in case of server problems, or angry bloggers
Based on what I’ve read, these gentleman have nailed it…the great commission as fulfilled through the greatest gift, love.
I and my children had the pleasure of meeting the Peasall Sisters and their family at a home-school convention a few years ago. They are home-schooled and were caught up in the O Brother Where Art Thou Roots music tour and movement after singing the parts of the three sisters in O Brother Where Art Thou?
After attending a workshop given by their Mother, it was clear that they had committed their way and their talents to serving the Lord and to loving others and that God has used and will continue to use them in a mighty way in His kingdom. The difference being to be set apart, not for protection, but to be set apart for service to the King.
I think they are an example of “Compelled by Love” as they were trained to love through their gifts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r3opgXn9IQ&feature=related
I confess to not having had time to read this work, but I find it troubling that I see no mention of mans totally lost condition, the wrath of God and the desperate need of a Savior.
Nor is there any mention of the work of the Holy Spirit or the place of preaching as in Romans 10.
Where do these biblical concepts fit in with this missional view?
Michael,
Good point!
Though not biblical in its base, I came to the conclusion, after taking a multicultural education class, that civil rights in this country would not have been won if the battle had not been fought on all fronts….passive resistance, militaristic resistance, prayer and standing together in love. Love can take many forms, including tough love.
I can’t help but think the same is true in the Kingdom of God.
Just thinking out loud, not making a declaration
Hello everyone.
Thanks again to Phoenix Preacher for allowing Ed and I some time to interact with you on the blog.
Michael - please do not be troubled. All of the biblical concepts you mention are within the reason for living as sent by God.
My missional perspective is directly related to God’s perfection and man’s lost condition. Within the book, we devoted three chapters to give an overview of the character of God (one of which deals exclusively with the role of the Holy Spirit in the redemptive work). And, I would add that there is no missionary work accomplished unless truth is proclaimed from a believer. Otherwise, we have only done nice favors for people.
Missional living only exists because God sends us to work alongside of him as he makes his redemptive appeal through us that sinful man might inherit the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:16-21).
Phillip,
We would agree there.
I would like you to amplify a bit on your “eternity in their hearts” statement.
Doesn’t Romans 3 negate that idea?
By the way, thank you for including us here.
Stetzer and Nation are right on. We must get away from the notion that “church” is going to a building for two hours on a Sunday. We are called to be the church and this can only be done as we live Christ-saturated lives that flow with sacrificial love for a lost and hurting world. Sunday services definitely still have a place but we also need to expand our definition of what “preaching the gospel” means. It doesn’t just come from a pulpit. I need to preach the gospel to myself daily, share it with others and have them remind me of these beautiful life changing truths as well.
Thanks to this blog for carrying this tour.
Another question before work…who is your target audience and why?
Michael – glad to be able to drop in and out for the next few days.
First – I think Ecclesiastes 3:11 and Romans 3 are a great match for dealing with people in our confused generation. The teacher in Ecclesiastes is making the point that we look for meaning and sense it exists because of God’s work in us. But we ultimately feel frustrated by the world’s offerings. Romans 3 gives us the perspective from the other side of the New Covenant. We feel alien and unsatisfied not simply because of what the world offers but because we sinfully choose it instead of choosing God.
Whether one sees it as an advantage or disadvantage, the reality is we live in a culture obsessed with spirituality and an innocuous ideal of happiness/love. As God’s missionaries, we can uncover the truth of God’s perfection which solves man’s imperfection.
Second – our target audience is everyday believers. Much of the missional literature has been aimed at church leadership. We hope Compelled by Love will aid all Christians to live as missionaries in their communities.
I can see I’m going to have to get this book! A couple of years ago God brought this message to my heart. I had a longing to go elsewhere…and probably a romanticized idea of being a missionary.
God showed me that I’m responsible for ‘my little corner of the world.’ I prayed about what my gifts were and how I could use them to encourage and lift up my little corner and it has made all the difference in my life. Most of my focus has been on Believers, though, and now I need to pray about the evangelistic nature of ‘my little corner of the world.’ Time to buy “Compelled by Love!”
Thanks, gentlemen, for stopping by to chat with us.
Philip, once again, thank you for doing this and welcome to Phoenix Preacher. As I’ve already told you, I hope that this thread will be a helpful and edifying time for you and Dr. Stetzer and everyone who reads and/or reads it.
Michael - next time we do something like this, you get first dibs on questions
Chad, welcome to PP. I think your statements are right on - we are called to BE the church, not GO TO the church for a couple of hours on Sunday and think that suffices for our weekly obligation to God.
Linnea, His Kid - thanks for your views!
Now, time for me to wake up
If you’re up for it, Philip, I’d like for you and/or Dr. Stetzer to amplify a bit on your statement about each of us being missionaries to our part of the world. Does that mean that it is as legitimate for someone to be a missionary to the place they work at - be it a law office, UPS, Burger King, Wal-Mart, a radio station - as it is to be what we usually think, which is someone leaving the comforts of America to minister for the Lord in some third world country?
***Moving into their thought patterns is at the very least difficult for people of our generation (Last year, I crossed the threshold into my 40’s and Philip is right behind me). But, it can also be completely frustrating because this younger generation actually enjoys holding competing truth claims in their minds as equal to one another.
We will simply need to realize that they are farther from God than previous generations; much more like Mars Hill than Jerusalem.***
Was Mars Hill really “farther from God” than Jerusalem? When the Athenians heard Paul’s message some sneered, others wanted to hear more, and some became followers of Christ. That’s a far cry from killing Christ which is what the people in Jerusalem did.
I personally associate Jerusalem with a very legalistic, Old Testament mindset. That mindset doesn’t seem any closer to God than the Athenian mindset that was very open and accepting of all sorts of gods and religious and philosophical ideas.
I fail to understand why the younger generations are “farther from God” than previous generations. I would say they are weary of the legalism of previous generations and are curious about other philosophies and ideas of how to live. And they are perhaps more accepting of alternative lifestyles and people who their parents and grandparents looked down upon.
To me, that doesn’t seem as if they’re farther from God than their parents’ or grandparents’ generations. Perhaps they are as near or as far from Him as their parents were, but in a different way.
Jessica:
“To me, that doesn’t seem as if they’re farther from God than their parents’ or grandparents’ generations. Perhaps they are as near or as far from Him as their parents were, but in a different way.”
Pretty astute.
I think what the authors were getting at was the younger generations are holding to or embracing mutually exclusive truth claims.
IICor.4:4 describes the work and effect of Satan as “whose minds the god of this age has blinded . . ”
In that sense there is another barrier to deal with as Christ calls people to repent and follow Him exclusively.
But that barrier can serve as the catalyst to move us to a greater labor of love which will evidence it itself in a more compelling witness in terms of our whole lifestyle and seeking to understand our faith not in terms of what “I do in church” but embracing it as a rational and comprehensive worldview and lifestyle that should influence and effect all that I do in every sphere of living.
Jessica,
Great point. The legalist and the philosopher are equally on a search (and thus lost). I like that you pointed out Jerusalem was every bit as “lost” as Athens, if not more so.
The Great Commission
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
That “go” is important…
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4198&t=KJV
BrianD, pretty cool one of your church elders shows up here. Praying for you to both enjoy a mutually beneficial relationship in Christ.
Very cool indeed, vic.
Now that he’s seen my Chad Johnson gravatar, though, I’m wondering if he’s going to tell me to repent or else!
Dr. Stetzer, whenever you pop in, welcome to the blog!
BrianD, thanks for the effort to arrange this and get the questions asked and submitted to Ed and Philip.
I appreciated the answer I received and the information and encouragement in it.
Brian wrote:
>>If you’re up for it, Philip, I’d like for you and/or Dr. Stetzer to amplify a bit on your statement about each of us being missionaries to our part of the world. Does that mean that it is as legitimate for someone to be a missionary to the place they work at - be it a law office, UPS, Burger King, Wal-Mart, a radio station - as it is to be what we usually think, which is someone leaving the comforts of America to minister for the Lord in some third world country?
Be glad to.
It has to do with the posture of life. Far too may have reduced their approach to “invest and invite.” They think that their job is to get around some non-Christians and then invite them to church. Once there, the professional pastor can “seal the deal” and give the gospel.
I am not anti-invite (though I think it is less effective today). However, attractional approaches (bringing people to the exciting “next big thing” so they can hear about Jesus, often dis-empowers what should be the ordinary practice of believers living on mission in their spheres on influence.
Let me say one more thing. We should NOT use the “live like a missionary” idea to be less involved in God’s global mission. We need more people going to the nations—and, at the same time, we need more Christians living on mission in this nation.
Ed
Ed Stetzer: “However, attractional approaches (bringing people to the exciting “next big thing” so they can hear about Jesus, often dis-empowers what should be the ordinary practice of believers living on mission in their spheres on influence.”
True and stated clearly.
Ed Stetzer…I really enjoyed “Breaking the Missional Code”
Phillip Nation…you have a cool name for what you’re promoting
I completely agree with the concept of missional living and missional church and how that relates to our command to love people.
I tell our church regularly, that the people we encounter on a daily basis are our greatest opportunity to love God. John makes that clear in 1 John 4.
On Sunday I taught from John 20 about “Our Mission” as believers and the fact that we are sent to our local context in the same way that Jesus was sent here.
Keep up the good work guys, I plan on buying this book and getting it into the hands of our leaders as this really encapsulates much of what I try to get across to them and the entire church.
grace…ryan
Ed,
The “invest and invite” paradigm made me cringe a little. Maybe it’s the reaction I get whereever I encounter American evangelical consumerism, and the catchy slogans that follow in its wake
Seriously…the idea of being on mission at my job, within my family, within my social network is one that makes total sense. But, I never heard any teaching about being missional at work as a kid or as an adult until, as I said, recently.
The models for being a Christian at work were: 1. be separate from the world (which meant don’t laugh at dirty jokes, don’t talk about the movies and TV shows they watched and music they listen to); 2. preach at nonbelievers (because EVERYBODY, it was implied, had the obligation to evangelize). But being a missionary meant you had to leave America to minister to poor people in some obscure corner of Africa, Mexico or Asia.
Brian,
I think that part of the problem is that we have made a mark of discipleship that we get new (and old) Christians away from lost people. We need to be salt and light and we often are not becuase we isolate ourselves and then “reach back” to invite the sinners to come to church.
Holiness (something you mention and I think is important) is not seperation from sinners– it is seperation from sin.
Gotta go catch a plane and will check back later.
Ed
Ed and Philip,
The idea of being missional in one’s life is actually very challenging when I think of it.
If I embrace that idea, I can’t put God on a shelf when I want to be more like the world; you know, act Godly at church and act like a heathen on Friday night.
It means that I am on mission 24/7 as a representative of Jesus Christ, and that is true at work, with my family, with my friends, in traffic, at the game, on the golf course, watching TV, surfing the web, whereever.
Of course, that can lead to discouragement if you know you’re naturally sinful and ‘ornery’, but that should lead to a realization that it’s Christ in you, not you, who enables you to live that Christ-centered life in the first place, and should lead to a realization that it is Christ and His grace which enables you, and keeps you, and helps you to grow in Him.
And that, as someone who belongs to Christ, that the idea of being your own person, putting on the Christian guise whenever it suits you, is no longer an option.
Ed, see you later on and thanks once again for stopping by to chat with us!
Thanks guys, will check back in tomorrow am.
Thank you Brothers for interacting with the Phoenix Preacher folks today. I look forward to reading your book, discussed here.
I have always had an affinity for what I have called “Lifestyle Evangelism. An old time evangelist said “your words and your ways need to match up”.
We often hear in preaching from the Great Commission to “go” and “make” disciples. We also have been taught from Acts 1 to “BE” a disciple in our home base, ie “Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria”, etc. Pastors point out, Jesus gave the BE-attitudes rather than the DO-attitudes. The hard part is translating this into daily life and interacting with people in all states of being near to or far from Jesus. One of the biggest obstacles is the criticism from believers who misunderstand “friendships with the world” that is, non believers, regardless of the nature of those friendships and activities shared.
In our recent move and quest for a place to fellowship, one of the things we looked for is a place suitable to invite a non christian to. “Could we bring someone who is searching to this church?”
Sadly, we find this most illusive!
Churches tend to be, well, churchy and the day to day lives of many participants bears no resemblance to the Gospel or Jesus.
More and more, we find that gathering with folks in homes to talk, lightly discuss the scriptures and simply pray for and with people seems effectivefruitful.
Is this what your book discusses?
I want to remind everyone that the Linkathon normally posted today at PP is, this week, posted at FTA. In fact I’ve added several new links at the end of the lead article, including a link to an organization that wants to send iPods, filled with sound Biblical teaching, to African pastors. You can find that link, and others like it, at
http://fromtheashesblog.com/?p=1123
Paigemom… wise words and you said:
“More and more, we find that gathering with folks in homes to talk, lightly discuss the scriptures and simply pray for and with people seems effective/fruitful.”
I agree. We have found the same thing. We need to be willing to share our lives as we go.
It seems like whenever a good, biblically sound idea is made into a program, the effectiveness and love is reduced.
Paigemom wrote:
>>“More and more, we find that gathering with folks in homes to talk,
>>lightly discuss the scriptures and simply pray for and with people seems effective/fruitful.”
>>Is this what your book discusses?
Paigemom,
We do think that love is best shown in the “small” and we USChristians seem to have a love affair with the big.
Before that sounds like an anti-mega church comment (which it is not), let me say that churches of any size may “gather big” but they have to “live small.”
I preach every week to a church that has a little over 3000 people in attendance. And this Sunday I shouted (more than I usually do or should), that the mark of greatness in the church is not how many come here to see the show. Instead, it is how many show and share the love of Christ in the neighborhood and workplace. That takes place in homes, classes, ministries, and many other places.
I am preaching through the parables of Jesus in Matthew 13 and the focus was on the parables of the mustard seed and yeast– small things that get in and change everything around them.
Although what we do gathered on Sunday matters, being a loving church is not shown by talking about on Sunday. It is how we live life with others on Monday.
Ed
Ed likes Lutherans, so he can’t be all bad
http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/2008/08/little-love-for-the-lutherans.html
Ed, thanks for helping the LCMS in this area.
The stereotype about churches being so judgmental is simply unfair. while it represents a slice of the church it hardly represents the whole.
Furthermore, the idea that the culture is less judgmental than the church is patently false. Just visit blogdom for the truth there. Read newspaper columns, or letters to editors, watch reality tv or talk shows…judgmentalism is a human condition.
What the world is offended by is the exclusivity we attach to Jesus. And when people enter the reality of church life what they find is another slice of daily life…people just like them with the same problems, cares and issues.
Church has more of an image problem on this than anything else. Just turn on the tv…hardly any popular tv ministry is led by a judgmental teacher/pastor.
I weary with these things. But I can see that these men have produced a valuable and useful tool for us.
BrianD,
Can you fish my post out of moderation please - it had a link.
Gimme a second.
Your 10:59 a.m. link is restored.
Dread,
I think there is truth in your statements above but the polarization of church and world is so widely spoken of that we cannot just dismiss it as “the narrow road” natural selection that evangelicals have been espousing for decades.
From our perspective we must explore why the church (Christians) have lost its connection with the lost world that Jesus seemed to relate to so naturally without ever compromising theologically.
Ed…I wrote a comment to you above (9:30am). If you saw it already then never mind
I find in today’s “Christian” world we need books like this to remind and instruct believers to be what the scriptures already tell us.
For some reason in our culture we have to have these titles like “missional” and “emergent” to re-identify what we should already be in Christ Jesus. Maybe it’s the self centered idea that we have to be new, different and the old ways are the bad ways.
Everything I read in this thread from these guys is good. The 24/7 small groups, reaching the people around you kind of stuff is what we are supposed to be.
But, if a new moniker will stimulate a few more people to do what we have been commissioned to do the I am for it.
Oh if you like this, read the book “Organic Church, Growing Faith Where Life Happens,” by Neil Cole.
IT isn’t about us, IT is about Christ. There has been so much said here that I echo. BEattitudes not DOattitudes. I am inclined to feel weary, too and ask myself why we need another book?
I guess we pew sitters need to be reminded over again that we’re part of the gospel spreading plan, eh?
Thanks Ed, for your reply.
BD, I am certainly a benefactor of “Big” gatherings, and am thankful for them. I think that there is definitely a cultural prejudice against christians. Some of it is deserved. Some is the Last Days. Some of it is spiritual warfare. We can’t do a whole lot about the second and third things, but we can try to live in a manner that may turn around the first issue, particularly with those closest who observe our lives and attitudes. And, we can certainly pray about the other two.
Ed and Philip,
Your book sounds very compatible with the book that I wrote and published earlier this past year, “The Body of Christ in all her glory” (Aventine Press). My book talks about how God worked in our lives and through our church at a point in time 14 years ago in which ministering to a woman’s family though her 2 1/2 year battle with cancer taught our church what it means to be the body of Christ. In our fellowship, the love of God that was expressed towards this family in meeting all of their needs and reaching out to them became contageous and soon our church began to reach out in love meeting people’s needs wherever we found them. The results were epic for our church and many people were touched for Christ. My book too is all about simply beginning to love each other in the same way in which Christ loves us. Jesus said that people would know we are His disciples by our love!
You can read about my book on my blog site and web site from here: http://www.jimbs.wordpress.com
JimB
Ed -
Thanks for tackling my loaded question…it wasn’t meant to be one.
You possibly address this in the book - but I’m wondering how you think most churches are not “missional” in the way that you describe? Allow me to explain…
Although I don’t live there now, I spent about 15 years in the Dallas/Fort Worth area & saw my share of mega-churches. Some I agreed with doctrinally; others I didn’t. But one thing they all had in common was a LOT of people…many of whom came to Christ as a result of those ministries (though I’m sure many others simply went from church to church).
Wouldn’t those churches be considered “missional” in the fact that they did a very good job of reaching their white, suburban, upper-middle-class, baby boomer culture?
Or would you consider missional to be associated only with Millenials/busters? I guess what I’m getting at is: where’s the dividing line between what you would consider to be missional/not & why is it you believe the American church-at-large has failed at this?
Ryan,
Evangelicalism has dummied down the Gospel and fostered the critical reaction from the world.
The Gospel is not fire insurance from hell. The Gospel is God’s good fulfillment of all his promises in Jesus.
Part of our problem is the multitude of unconverted converts we have won with our ‘pray the Jesus prayer’ Gospel. Thus the moral condition of our converts is horribly pathetic….AND the only message that the world has heard from us is that Christianity is all about avoiding hell and not much about life here and now.
Anyway…your pleading response has not fallen on deaf ears… we surely have a problem to address… I doubt we can clean up the toxic environment created by our less than Gospel preaching.
Peace to you
good words Dread…
Dread…wow…you are right.
Tim…not related, but do you have any word on refugees from Georgia?
Linnea -
I don’t, unfortunately. I’m in NYC this week for some software training, so I’m a bit out of the loop.
BABs,
Is the salvation prayer the issue of the lack of discipleship and solid Bible teaching?
JimB
Dread,
You nailed it. What people use for an excuse to not participate in a church is just that - an excuse. Calling the Church judgmental and drawing long beards and fierce Pharisee images helps the cowards that make this excuse to continue to hide from the truth and liberation they might find in a majority of Bible-believing churches. Thank you for your commment, I concur totally.
puzzletop
The reason books like this have to be written is because the notion of church as a community is a dieing concept. Helping families and people (and not just those in our church) with food, prayer, fellowship, job searches and such should be the norm not the exception. We should not have to have a person whose ministry at the church is to organize these things we should be doing it out if habit and personal lifestyle.
Thanks again for the encouraging us through your books!
Tom wrote:
>> Although I don’t live there now, I spent about 15 years in the Dallas/Fort
>> Worth area & saw my share of mega-churches. Some I agreed with doctrinally;
>> others I didn’t. But one thing they all had in common was a LOT of people…
>> many of whom came to Christ as a result of those ministries (though I’m sure
>> many others simply went from church to church).
>> Wouldn’t those churches be considered “missional” in the fact that they did a
>> very good job of reaching their white, suburban, upper-middle-class, baby
>> boomer culture?
It’s a good question.
But, no, I think that would not (necessarily) make them missional. You can be evangelistic (and even be missiological discerning to get there) and still not be missional. I don’t want to confuse cultural relevance and missional (though I think cultural relevance, a part of cultural engagement, is part of missional).
I know a lot of good churches that are effectively evangelistic and cultural relevant to their contexts but I would not see them as missional.
Why?
Well, ultimately it has to do with whether you are producing disciples who join God on his mission– who are shaped in such a way that they are not simply converted consumers but are actually living out and living in the mission of Jesus.
That includes, but it bigger than, evangelistic success.
Ed
The Navigators organization has been around a long time now. I wonder if their parameters for ministry fit the model being discussed here.
If they’d come to mind sooner I would have asked the above question
Mods,
Can one of you please go over to the Monday (sort of) Prayer thread and delete the 6:44 that some rude person posted there. Thanks.
Psalm 62,
I am very excited about the things I hear coming out of the Navigators. Mike Miller (new Navigators President) and I are getting together in a couple of months to talk about some of these very things.
Ed
***What people use for an excuse to not participate in a church is just that - an excuse. Calling the Church judgmental and drawing long beards and fierce Pharisee images helps the cowards that make this excuse to continue to hide from the truth and liberation they might find in a majority of Bible-believing churches.***
I think people have legitimate reasons for thinking the church is judgemental. Some of those reasons are: James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberton, de-gayifying “ministries”, and tough “love” boot camps.
I think bears noting that not every non-christian who thinks the church is judgemental was born outside the church. There are many non-christians now who claim that the church is judgemental who reached that conclusion after growing up as christians in a christian environment and then chose to turn their backs on all of that because they found the rules to be too heavy and the people to be too unkind.
@@@@There are many non-christians now who claim that the church is judgemental@@@@
ummm… could that be perhaps an excuse not to deal with the truth?
brings to mind a movie quote from a “FEW GOOD MEN”
Ross: Don’t you dare lump me in with Jessup and Kendrick just because we wear the same uniform. … Col. Jessep: [shouts] You can’t handle the truth! …
Hey, everybody.
Kevin, that was a spammer who somehow got through. It’s taken care of.
Jessica, your 7:52 comment:
I have sadly seen that in my own church experience, and I have used it in the past as an excuse to pull away from the church, despite the fact that I needed to be involved in the body of Christ despite its flaws.
You’re right to call out judgmental attitudes with their too heavy rules and unkind people as wrong, though. I wish more of us would do the same.
I don’t know of any segment of society that isn’t judgmental.
Most who I know who left the church in their late teens/early twenties told me the church was judgmental, uptight, and unkind. That was my excuse as well. Many times the underlying reason is that people don’t want to be confined to biblical morality. In some cases, there is a feeling (and they may be correct, btw) of superiority; intellectually, spirtually, or morally that drives people from the church.
Jessica, not too many years ago one of my grandsons’ SS teacher told his mother in all seriousness that her son had a *demon*. When she realized that this teacher was dead serious, she made an appointment with the pastor who said he’d talk to the SS Superintendent - nothing happend as they decided that the SS teacher was a good one. This was a fairly large non denom. conservative body with a very credentialed pastor. Guess what family found another church post haste?
I pray daily for the support groups that pastors surround themselves with to be God-fearing pious people.
The rules are too heavy? Oh, please.
Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
“I think people have legitimate reasons for thinking the church is judgemental. Some of those reasons are: James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberton, de-gayifying “ministries”, and tough “love” boot camps.”
That sounds like the same lame reasoning that if a someone gets divorced or hurt by someone, they will NEVER trust or love someone again. That is without discernment and immature.
You guys talk amongst yourselves… let us know if we can help. Grin.
Ed
Laura, if she uses it as an excuse to stay away from church entirely, then I agree with you.
I think the rules Jessica are referring to aren’t the rules laid down in Scripture, but the man-made rules laid down by different types of Christians that all of us who have been in the church have run into at one time or another.
“I think people have legitimate reasons for thinking the church is judgemental. Some of those reasons are: James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberton, de-gayifying “ministries”, and tough “love” boot camps.”
I’m with Jessica on this one.
It doesn’t help to turn it back on the people doing the criticizing.
Many nonChristians, I believe, see the Church as a group of moralists who emphasize law much, much more than God’s grace.
The Religious Right did a great job of hijacking the Gospel over the last 20 years.
It doesn’t hurt to listen to the church’s critics. Doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything. But a fortress mentality just makes it worse.
Did anybody see the movie “Jesus Camp”? If I weren’t a churched person, and I was an adult, I’d make sure my kids never got near Christianity!
1 Pet2 is a good attitude check, but the question is how do we raise children in the Church with confidence in God’s standards rather than oppressing them with them? Or can we?
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Ed, sorry - at times there are rabbit trails all over - I specialize in same.
Ed (and Philip),
Sometimes on our blog side discussions develop - we call them ‘bunny trails’.
Michael and us moderators have chosen to allow those bunny trails to develop - sometimes they develop into great discussions of their own, and exist within a thread.
However, we never allow these side discussions to displace the main topic of any thread.
The discussion here regarding Compelled by Love and subjects relating to it or to the questions asked in the Q&A are certainly still on the table.
BrianD, I think that same reasoning is used by many people to justify any number of practices that take people away from the Word and fellowship.
Jesus is in the business of healing. To stay in that mindset could mean that people do want want to get beyond their hurt.
That’s why, Laura, I got back in church. Because I realized the excuse couldn’t stand up; I needed to be amongst the body.
Philip, if you’re online, welcome back!
Good for you, BrianD. To God be the glory.
I saw Jesus Camp. It focused on the charismatic side of the house. I think Lou Engle was in one of the segments.
My dislike of charismatics aside, the producers of the movie Jesus Camp did a good job of spinning to make Christians look like anti-societal, over emotional, suggestable, dangerous people.
Lutheran,
Amazing that you would see an anti christian movie and then conclude if you were a non christian you would not want your children to be a Christian.
I think that is the purpose of the producers to make Christianity about abusive churches and not about our LORD and SAVIOR.
I think the word for that is PROPOGANDA when the producer makes one come to his conclusion that Christianity is about hate and bullying.
Now I know why Jesus referred to us as sheep.
BAHHHH
Philip,
I am going to reask the question Dr. Stetzer graciously answered earlier today and get your take.
I’d like for you to amplify a bit on your statement about each of us being missionaries to our part of the world. Does that mean that it is as legitimate for someone to be a missionary to the place they work at - be it a law office, UPS, Burger King, Wal-Mart, a radio station - as it is to be what we usually think, which is someone leaving the comforts of America to minister for the Lord in some third world country?
About propaganda NOT working: Son of Hamas Leader Turns Back on Islam and Embraces Christianity
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html
Sometimes, people take the time to find out and see through the smoke screen.
Centurion and Puzzletop,
I disagree with you both.
I don’t think it was an anti-Christian movie at all.
The kids in that movie were brainwashed.
I think they did a good job of exposing extremism.
It would be very easy for moviemakers to crank out dozens of similar movies. If the stuff in that movie is what you would label abusive, then there are plenty of abusive churches around.
Would you really want your kids involved in such a thing?
I’d want mine as far away as possible.
BrianD can I add a question to your 8:33 please: how to handle todays restrictions on what we used to call *witnessing?*
Lut,
I felt they lumped all of us together, and attempted to present what they filmed as normative rather than the extreme. The way the tied in the abortion issue was over the top.
Centy and Lut
Since we are talking about movies:
brings to mind a movie quote from a “FEW GOOD MEN”
Ross: Don’t you dare lump me in with Jessup and Kendrick just because we wear the same uniform. … Col. Jessep: [shouts] You can’t handle the truth! …
Brian,
No problem… just fun to watch.
But, I am signing off for the night.
Thanks for having us come by! We appreciate it.
Ed
Centurion,
I can see what you’re saying.
But, see, from the outside, I think that’s how evangelicals/charismatics are seen.
Besides, remember, it was a documentary. Documentaries aren’t supposed to be objective. It’s a “POV” film.
And I say, so what if it was biased? Can’t we learn some things from others? Otherwise we’re just in our church moats, tossing stones when there’s something we don’t like in “the world.”
anti-societal, over emotional, suggestable, dangerous people.
Sad to say, many Christians are much too suggestible and overemotional.
Maybe overemotional isn’t right. Maybe it’s “unbalanced.”
I’m all for balance. I aspire to be a worldly Christian, in fact.
Ed,
If you’re still up the conversation is still on the table, always on the table, no matter how many bunny trails one has to walk thru to get to it
Thank you for stopping in and participating. We look forward to hearing from you and Philip in the next few days if your schedule permits.
centy,
Here is the question. If the film makers were critics of Christiany, why is it always the critics exposing the abuses? Why doesn’t a Christian group expose the actions/brainwashing of the kids in Jesus camp?
Why is it that the ‘outsiders’ can always identify our moral stand but know nothing ‘real’ about Jesus?
MLD,
Outstanding questions you raise. Go to the head of the class.
Especially your last question.
A lot of nonChristians think Jesus is the new Moses — lots of rules and commandments must be what He’s all about…
To follow up on my own question - why aren’t the ‘outsiders’ clear on our description/teachings about Jesus “and oh yeah, I kinda remember something about they don’t like homosexuality, but they never really went into it.”
BrianD, you are too kind to us rabbits - thank you for what I’ve learned tonight.
time for my nap
Lutheran,
“A lot of nonChristians think Jesus is the new Moses — lots of rules and commandments must be what He’s all about…”
I said this last month in a blog conversation here - evangelicals have turned the Gospel into NT Law. It’s amazing.
MLD, no we haven’t turned the Gospel into law - we just got carried away with civic duty ie; if there’s enough of us, we can vote things back to the way it used to be…
stopping for pithiness and bedtime
God keep
MLD,
If we asked our guests about how it is with new Christians and new churches we might learn that there seems to be a natural progression that new Christians and new churches go through a phase, at least in the beginning that they tend to become legalistic.
I know from my own experiences that this is most likely the case and I have a few theories of why this is so. I think that it is a mark of immaturity as Spirit filled believers to rely on the flesh to make ourselves good Christians but this opens up the whole idea of working out your own salvation…. well not yours but you get my drift.. I hope.
There are solutions to this if we could focus on this maybe we might find one or maybe two.
puzzletop
mld,
Because Phoenix Preacher Films is not in operation yet
good night
My point is this, if we are going to be missional and plant new churches, what is the message?
Are we preaching our morals or our message about Jesus and how he came to save sinners.
If we work to get them to ‘come to Jesus’ shouldn’t we have enough confidence that God will clean them up?
***@@@@There are many non-christians now who claim that the church is judgemental@@@@
ummm… could that be perhaps an excuse not to deal with the truth?***
Ummm…are you aware that your response is a total non sequitur and that you completely misquoted me by cutting off the second half of the sentence?
For the record the complete sentence was: “There are many non-christians now who claim that the church is judgemental who reached that conclusion after growing up as christians in a christian environment and then chose to turn their backs on all of that because they found the rules to be too heavy and the people to be too unkind.”
It is easier to carry on a discussion if all members of said discussion are actually paying attention to what is being written.
MLD.
1. The Gospel
2.Jesus how he came to save sinners
3. Yes
puzzletop
Ed,
What are your experiences as to how a new church becomes legalistic. Is there a reason for this that you can share? Is it a common occurrence for legalism to invade a new church?
puzzletop.
Centorian,
Why did you post that video? It was horrible.
Ladies (and men too)… don’t watch it. I’ve never seen things like that before, and I never wanted to…
Solus, agreed, though I didn’t put the link into moderation.
I don’t want to be the Thread Nazi here. I’ll tolerate a side discussion on judgmentalism (especially since it can tie into the subject of the thread).
But, the link put into moderation was to a movie that discussed the Quran and included graphic images of 9/11 and terrorism. If you’re going to post it, save it for Open Blogging on Saturday.
I want this thread to stay mainly on topic or on issues relating to the topic, particularly since Dr. Stetzer and Pastor Nation have been so kind to stop in and participate.
I think legalism is as old as St. Paul’s warnings against it in Galatians. It’s nothing new at all.
Why legalism? It’s a hell of a lot easier to walk by sight than by faith. Legalism says that if an individual or church group follows certain rules — often unspoken and nebulous, occasionally more
overt — life is conquered and life is good. Everything’s black
and white.
I would go so far to say that the “old Adam” in us loves legalism.
Too bad it’s often portrayed in Christian circles as part of the “new creation”
If you look hard enough, you can find it on Google Video.
Just don’t post it here before speaking with Michael about it.
***The rules are too heavy? Oh, please.
Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.***
In my life, I have been struck again and again by the dichotomy between christian teaching/living and the message presented in the Bible. On the one hand, Christ says “My yoke is easy and My burden is light,” but then I was confronted with the reality that christians considered me ungodly because I was shy and struggled with depression.
I see a stark difference between Christ and the church. Christ’s burdens are easy and His yoke is light. But the church’s rules are overwhelmingly heavy.
***“I think people have legitimate reasons for thinking the church is judgemental. Some of those reasons are: James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberton, de-gayifying “ministries”, and tough “love” boot camps.”
That sounds like the same lame reasoning that if a someone gets divorced or hurt by someone, they will NEVER trust or love someone again. That is without discernment and immature.***
I do not think those are lame reasons.
Those three men are (or in the case of Falwell, were) extremely messed up in their thinking and very controlling in their attitudes. As far as Robertson goes, the nicest thing I can say about him is that he’s crazy. Dobson’s teachings on parenting in several areas actually run counter to the teachings in the Bible. And Falwell famously blamed 9/11 on abortionists, feminists, and gays. I find it incredibly disturbing that these men (particularly Dobson) have been embraced by American evangelicals. When they talk, they get press; christians pay attention to them. And yet they’re so utterly unChristlike, and, even being unChristlike, they don’t have any particular degree of intellect or wisdom to make up for that lack.
As far as ex-gay programs go. Even if you believe that homosexual behaviour is a sin, and even if you believe that it is possible for a homosexual to become heterosexual, a person with an ounce of integrity ought to be able to admit that there are huge problems with how ex-gay programs treat their “patients”. Far too many people have come away from them feeling violated, used, and brainwashed. That is not what a christian program should be doing to people.
And the whole idea of “tough love” is so blatantly unchristian that it shocks me to my core that tough love boot camps are still considered acceptable ways for christian parents to deal with their unruly children.
I want to follow Christ, but I have grave reservations about doing so within the evangelical church. Can I trust that I will be guided well by an organization, millions of members of which have embraced such complete and total blatant stupidity? Stupidity, I might add, that seems to run directly counter to what is written in the Bible. Even if a person wants to follow Christ, how could they trust a church like that?
I can see the value of being a part of the church, but I do not see the value in a part of the evangelical church. Maybe people should join the lutheran church or the emerging church. If they pointed as those church and claimed they were judgemental, then maybe I could agree with your claim that it’s lame reasoning. But, when people talk about how the church is judgemental they are, most likely, either talking about the catholic church (which I know nothing about and can’t speak to), or they’re talking about the evangelical church which, frankly, I think they are justified in labeling judgemental.
***Many times the underlying reason is that people don’t want to be confined to biblical morality. In some cases, there is a feeling (and they may be correct, btw) of superiority; intellectually, spirtually, or morally that drives people from the church.***
That has not been my experience. I want to follow God, and as far as biblical morality goes, although some of you might disagree with some of the things I say and think, I don’t think you could greatly disagree with the way I live my life.
Up until a few months ago, I had not gone to church for several years. I left the church for the simple reason that I was worn out and weary. My spirit was crushed by my experiences growing up within the church. And I felt I could no longer endure being despised and looked down upon, never being able to live up to the expectations placed upon me, never being able to rectify the attitudes that I saw lived out and preached from the pulpit with the spirit that I saw in Christ when I read the Bible.
I did not leave because I wanted to be free to sin. I did not leave because I felt morally superior to everyone else (in truth, I’d been told from an early age that I was an ungodly person because of some foundational aspects of my personality.) I simply couldn’t handle the christian thing anymore. It was far too heavy, and far too overwhelming.
Jess,
God loves you exactly as you are, the way He created you.
***The rules are too heavy? Oh, please.
Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.***
Your response actually kind of illustrates what I was saying.
I said that many people have found the rules within the church to be too heavy.
You responded with a dismissive “Oh, please,” and a bible quote.
There is an unspoken rule implied in your response. It is: you cannot feel burdened within or by christianity, because the Bible says you can’t be. Therefore if you feel burdened it means there is something wrong with you. In fact, there is something so wrong with you that I am not going to show even a minimum of respect for your feelings. Instead, I am going to not only dismiss your feelings but also subtly mock them. If you don’t want to face that again then you should avoid voicing your unpleasant thoughts or feelings.
I find that sort of rule incredibly heavy, and I am unwilling to endure that sort of weight anymore.
Personally I have never left church, I was told to get out two times and I did, mainly out of fear and self preservation. I dont stay away from Christians or church I just dont trust easily and I have no expectations what so ever, and never will again. I stay quiet and can totally understand not wanting to go. To be honest most of the churches I have attended did not miss the hole I left when I was not there. It was not because they were mean evil people, but I just was not that important, and dont ever expect to be. I go to church for one reason, to see where I can help, I see that as a bit pathetic and often wonder if I dont have some underlying motive for needing to help. As for being completely exhausting I would agree, I usually come home from church and need to sleep. I will admit to being touched at church and even comforted though I try very hard not to allow such feelings as it might lead to expectations, that is not an option.
As far as Robertson goes, the nicest thing I can say about him is that he’s crazy
You mean Pat “Word of Knowledge” Robertson?
The guy’s nuttier than a fruitcake.
I love how on CBN, Pat would get these “words from the Lord” just
before they had to break for the half hour. Nice. God respects
commercial breaks, I guess.
Wednesday Evening Lutheran Prayer
Dear Lord, abide with me, for it is toward evening,
and the day is quickly ending. Grand unto me the
blessedness that welcomes You and recognizes You in
the breaking of bread and in the Holy Supper, which
You have ordained for us to eat and to drink. Abide
with me this night. Bread of life, feed my soul; Water
of life, refresh me. Make me true to You, and in that
peace grant that I lie down and sleep. Lord, so
abide with me. Amen.
“I fear no foe with Thee at hand to bless,
Ills have no weight, and tears no bitterness.
Where is death’s sting? Where, grave, thy victory?
I triumph still if Thou abide with me!”
(LW 490:4)
I am not sure what to think about Ed and Philip’s book/comments.
My first thought is: What is wrong with good, old fashion, love instilled by the Holy Spirit? A love that is so beautiful, pure, genuine and natural — an unspoken love?
I hope to learn more tomorrow.
Blessings
Solas I have often asked the question a bit more personal, what is wrong with my love? I doubt sometimes it it has ever been beautiful, pure or genuine from the responses I have gotten. There seems to be a misunderstanding between me and others in the faith, I have spent many hours on my face begging that my love is pure, etc. When I first became a Christian I would just respond and help with great hope. I just “loved”, I have grown up since then and have learned that was just plain childish.
I’m also with Jessica, and with Lutheran on this discussion - I used to go to a church where after some time, every time I went, I got feeling so anxious that I would end up in the ladies room with a bowel problem. I finally had to leave and admit to myself and accept that I couldn’t handle their version of Christianity. I was afraid to leave. I kept blaming myself like Brian does, but I know now that they were an unhealthy group to be involved with like the unhealthy people in “Jesus Camp”. I’m glad that documentary was made. Abusive people need to be stopped. Thank you for your comments Jessica and Lutheran.
Add me to the “I’m also with Jessica” list. True … undoubtedly there are some that stay out of church because they don’t want to be confronted about their sin but that is not the case with all. Sadly there are others … my family included … that are no longer involve in a local church because of the harmful practices going on within them. That is a very sad reality I believe the Christian community needs to admit and address. Maybe a good place to start changing this sad reality is by stopping the practice of blaming those no longer attending because of legitimate reasons. Just a thought ….
Sue,
I really didn’t believe at the time church was stressing me out so much that it was causing the hives but I haven’t had hives since I stopped attending church so it seems the doctor was correct … sad. 
Your account about feeling so anxious in church that you ending up with tummy issues just reminded me about how I kept breaking out in hives. I too was so stressed by church life that it caused health issues. I also spent a lot of time in the ladies room … putting cold/wet towels on my neck & face. My doctor called the ongoing hives another form of tears.
Good morning all. I wanted to check in and give a few responses before my day goes crazy. I’ll be back again late tonight.
BrianD - you asked about the legitimacy of us being missionaries in our corner of the world…
Its legitimacy comes down to the perspective we hold of citizenship. As we are now members of God’s kingdom, everywhere we go, we are his ambassadors. Whether you are at work, play, school, etc. - we are God’s representatives in those places and that work must be foremost on our minds. Don’t forget to do your job, make good grades and keep your yard work up - but remember that our primary understanding of self is a servant to the King.
… and if it just seems as if I can’t handle stress … keep in mind that I live in a small very old historic home still under construction with four generations raging in age from a little over a year to almost 86. Oh … and did I mention there is only one bathroom … unless you count the outhouse.
Now that’s stressful. 
Good morning Philip Nation,
“Don’t forget to do your job, make good grades and keep your yard work up - but remember that our primary understanding of self is a servant to the King.”
Very well said!
to Martin Luther’s disciple - you asked…
“My point is this, if we are going to be missional and plant new churches, what is the message? Are we preaching our morals or our message about Jesus and how he came to save sinners. If we work to get them to ‘come to Jesus’ shouldn’t we have enough confidence that God will clean them up?”
If all I had to give was preaching morals - I would have given up shortly after I started.
In fact, one lost man who attended our church plant for a while and regale me with his Saturday night exploits. Finally he said, “I bet you wish I would stop all that drinking and womanizing.”
My reply was blunt - because I had built a strong friendship with him and we spoke often of his need for Christ. I said, “(name), I am not here to moralize pagans like you. God sent me here to introduce you to Christ. Let’s talk about him again.”
You do not need to be that blunt with people you know - but you can if you have spent enough time in the relationship with them.
So to your point - our message must be gospel first and then teach them to obey Christ’s commands.
Solus Christanus wrote:
“My first thought is: What is wrong with good, old fashion, love instilled by the Holy Spirit? A love that is so beautiful, pure, genuine and natural — an unspoken love?”
Our book is wrapped around simply understanding the scriptural teachings of God’s love. It is a love that must be lived out and spoken of often.
I hope everyone has a great day serving the Lord!
Be careful on the rabbit trails.
Rabbit trails? What rabbit trails?
Philip, welcome back. You said,
“BrianD - you asked about the legitimacy of us being missionaries in our corner of the world…
Its legitimacy comes down to the perspective we hold of citizenship. As we are now members of God’s kingdom, everywhere we go, we are his ambassadors. Whether you are at work, play, school, etc. - we are God’s representatives in those places and that work must be foremost on our minds. Don’t forget to do your job, make good grades and keep your yard work up - but remember that our primary understanding of self is a servant to the King.”
If I read you correctly, you’re telling me I don’t belong to myself, that I belong to God, and therefore it’s all about what He wants to do, not what I want to do.
So unAmerican.
And yet - those missionaries overseas aren’t their own people. They belong to the Lord, and are His representatives.
Not only are we His ambassadors, we’re also His missionaries to wherever we are.
Here’s another question, if you and/or Dr. Stetzer would like to answer:
What about those Christians who find themselves in a typical work environment with coworkers who are jerks, pay and benefits aren’t that great, hours stink, gossip, office politics, etc. It could be a pretty good office or just like Dunder-Miflin’s Scranton branch…or even worse
How should the Christian respond?
And, what if the Christian has, to date, responded by being withdrawn and just trying to survive, or in ways they know are wrong but they do them anyway?
Rabbit trails???
Rabbit trails, US? Why, whatever do you mean?!
;oD
smartaleckat
Briand:
“How should the Christian respond?”
I think the best answer is in what scripture teaches about a believer wife and the non-believer husband.
” In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,” (1 Peter 3:1, NASB95)
In fact the whole first three chapters of Peter is our instruction for such issues.
The good news is in these United States we can always quit Dunder-Miflin and seek another job, something people in the first century probably couldn’t do.
I think being “Missional” doesn’t always mean being vocal and a gadfly.
Drew
BrianD,
Re your 6:13am
Boldness and brashness have no place in the workplace for the Christian. Paul has made it clear. Be quiet, mind your own business and do your work.
1 Thes. 4:9-12 Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. And in fact, you do love all the brothers throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers, to do so more and more.
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is not the message you hear today. The Christian today is to butt into other people’s problems so that we can give them the “christian” solution. But this is not what Paul instructs the working Christian to do.
Give it some thought. This is why Lutherans say that we do our Good Works and serve our neighbors through our vocation.
Well said MLD. The older I get the more examples I have seen of people coming to those who follow Christ when they need help in some way. It can’t be forced. Living our lives unselfishly while doing our jobs as best as we can really stands out in this world. Hurting people in need of compassion will come willingly to a Christian who has proven themselves to be responsible & truly caring. If the reaching out to others … even providing needed support … comes without first being focused on Christ, others and making sure we are living responsibly it is very easy to get off track and cause more harm than good.
Philip,
Good Morning. Your book sounds very interesting. Thank you for your comments.
This is good old fashion love
MLD’s comment (Paul’s words) (7:01 am)
“Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is not the message you hear today. The Christian today is to butt into other people’s problems so that we can give them the “christian” solution. But this is not what Paul instructs the working Christian to do.
Give it some thought. This is why Lutherans say that we do our Good Works and serve our neighbors through our vocation.”
Philip wrote: “Our book is wrapped around simply understanding the scriptural teachings of God’s love. It is a love that must be lived out and spoken of often.”
Philip, teaching the understanding of God’s Word and love is great, along with sharing God’s Word with our neighbor. However, it seems so often, Christians feel the need to label something, give it a name and everything has to be called “ministry” or “mission…” when it is simply caring for and loving another person in a humble manner.
In my life, those I respect the most are those who love and care for others (Christians and non-Christians), thoughtful, remembering others, give comfort and encouragement, lend a helping hand and there when times are difficult (and good) and share God’s Word in a gentle and humble way, pick you up when you fall (and love you) and they are not loud about their goodness, it is simply a part of their very being.
“your daily life may win the respect of outsiders” Philip, this is what I mean.
Most Christians, that I know, probably would not even realize they have respect from various people on the outside because of their quiet, humble daily life.
Philip wrote: ” It is a love that must be lived out and spoken of often.”
I have never met a Christian who does not love, and most Christians that I know show their love with few words about their good works (it is shown through their humble and loving actions). Blessings
Brian wrote, “Solas I have often asked the question a bit more personal, what is wrong with my love? I doubt sometimes it it has ever been beautiful, pure or genuine from the responses I have gotten. There seems to be a misunderstanding between me and others in the faith, I have spent many hours on my face begging that my love is pure, etc. When I first became a Christian I would just respond and help with great hope. I just “loved”, I have grown up since then and have learned that was just plain childish.”
Brian,
Good Morning. There is nothing wrong with your love. If you were to ask those you care for every single day in your workplace, I believe (without a doubt) that they respect, admire and love you and, more importantly, see Christ in you. Few people in this world have the gift that you have, Brian. You are so kind-hearted and humble that you do not even realize it. People you meet in life, probably have not a clue what you endure every single day, yet you continue to do it because you care about people, you love others, you have compassion and a love for Christ, therefore, you extend this love to others.
Brian, your love is genuine, pure and humble. I could see you one day meeting God, and Him showing your the mind/heart of those you have assisted all these years… and you would probably fall to the ground and weep (with joy and relief). Brian, you have no idea how many lives you have made better, more comfortable, given more joy because you were in their lives.
I feel really badly for those who have hurt you over the years, because if they truly knew your heart and goodness, they would weep (with shame) for how they treated you.
Brian, I hope you never change. Your love is old fashion, pure, genuine, humble love.
Solus,
Your 10:19 is beautifully written, especially:
“In my life, those I respect the most are those who love and care for others (Christians and non-Christians), thoughtful, remembering others, give comfort and encouragement, lend a helping hand and there when times are difficult (and good) and share God’s Word in a gentle and humble way, pick you up when you fall (and love you) and they are not loud about their goodness, it is simply a part of their very being.”
MLD,”Boldness and brashness have no place in the workplace for the Christian. Paul has made it clear. Be quiet, mind your own business and do your work.” Amen
I lived long enough to see this truth born out…we’re unprepared to give a ready answer to him who asks (someone who has seen our walk) and yet….
we are taught to follow somebody’s formula of confrontation (sometimes called blindsiding) and then feel good because we were bold enough to present the gospel and, sure enough, it offended, just like the scriptures say.
Why can’t Christians learn to dance
mk,
Thank you for your kind words. My mother taught me old fashion (Jesus) love, my father too, along with grandparents and aunts and uncles and members of my community; which particularly included the school I attended and church life.
These people were not interested in ministry and missions so much, this is how they live their lives every single day. And, rarely, mentioning their own goodness (good works).
Checking to see who might have posted here today.
Dr. Stetzer and Pastor Nation, it was an honor and a privilege to have both of you here yesterday, and today.
I am happy with the response we got here, though I would have also been happy if we had participation from more of our pastors who could especially benefit from your insights on missional work and church planting.
Don’t be strangers, either of you. You are welcome to pop in at any time on any thread!
I wrote these words in my Bible (Galatians) awhile back, “Living in the Spirit is Christ doing the living for us, keeping the Ten Commandments, etc.; then comes the fruit of the Spirit, but it is all Christ and all His grace.”
Which reminds me of my sinful nature: “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.” Galatians 5:16-18
A friend once told me that the book of Galatians is a book of God’s Grace.
“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”
My NIV commentary: Because the God who sent the law also sent the Spirit, the by-products of the Spirit-filled life are in perfect harmony with the intent of God’s law. A person who exhibits the fruit of the Spirit fulfills the law far better than a person who observes the rituals but has little love in his or her heart.
Buy by faith we eargerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
“You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature, rather, serve one another in love.” Galaatians 5:13
When I mentioned my family and friends and community earlier, this sums up the way they live their lives every day… they serve one another in love. Serve. Joyfully!
Dr. Stetzer and /or Pastor Nation I appreciate your efforts and hope to read your book. My question is a long one and actually directed at anyone who can answer it for me. My one caveat and folks here know it well, not seeking sympathy, or even an emotional response. I worked with a student in this ministry for about ten years and have known him for seventeen. I have been one of the only “evangelicals” (though I no longer claim that title) that still talks to him. A young man with severe CP and many other issues was in a “club” with me, we promised him the moon. Your part of a family, Jesus loves you and all the normal party line hooha. It was sincere on everyone’s part.
He so wanted to “use his gifts” with in the body, but because transportation, restroom issues and etc.
I took him on several retreats, again please note caveat, as much as he tried he just never fit in. I tried with all my heart to meet the needs of him and others, I failed. His “ministry” was talking, encouraging people etc. not much use in the big picture, and I truly understand that, but it was what he had. He belonged to the disabled ministry for years but this ministry was for teens and after so many years there was no other place to go. Churches tried, and I mean that, but there was no coordination and even less follow through.
He called me this feb, it was his birthday and he wanted to celebrate, but could not ask his new communion, they are JW’s. These two gentlemen come out for two hours a week and do something that is very hard, and causes much disruption in the body, they listen. We had is party, dates are important. I will be honest I miserably failed this young person and it makes me sick. My main question is we cant have conversations about such things in the Body, someones feelings get hurt then there is the retaliations and anger. I am not looking for the sky, and I have learned to curb my expectations in the local body, but we cant even talk.
This is one of dozens of folks. I just dont really know what to do. I should and I am so totally ashamed of my failing these folks.
Brian - I’m not sure i’m understanding your question - it seems you are saying you couldn’t find a place for your friend to “minister”? If so, I would look at the word “minister”. What does that really mean anyway? I’ve heard in many a sermon that if you are not in the “ministry” (some official ministry), that God has put you up on a shelf. Today, I think that is a mean thing to say. Every part of the body is important including small parts that are not seen. Think of what goes on in each cell of our bodies. I think it’s good to think outside the box. Everyone can minister wherever they are, and can do it through many different ways. To minister is to be a loving person, even if you are stuck in a bed. Hate to see you beat yourself up. It’s not your responsibility to figure it out for your friend. It’s Gods responsibility to minister through him. If I’m not getting your question right, please ask it again so it’s more clear. For what its worth—–
In case anyone is paying any attention … I need to add a post script to my 2:35 yesterday - I was agreeing with MLD’s previous post - still do…. BUT there are in the Body a group of people who have a **gift** for being confrontational (Spirit directed IMO). Perhaps all who are called to shepherd need this gift… dunno
psalm62…I agree. I think it comes in some measure with the office of pastor/teacher and is manifested through the gift of discernment. Don’t know…just looking over scripture and pondering with you.
I’ve heard in many a sermon that if you are not in the “ministry” (some official ministry), that God has put you up on a shelf. Today, I think that is a mean thing to say.
Sue,
That sure is mean.
It’s also really ignorant. Reminds me of before the Reformation when there were 2 types of Christians — the poor average schmoe with a trade, and the ‘anointed’ monks, priests, etc. in the Church.
I think “ministry” is one of the most abused terms in Christian circles, especially in low church Protestant ones. It has some kind of magical hold on people. Everybody has their own idea of what it means, almost. What on earth does ‘official ministry’ mean??
Thanks all sue I hope to clarify later, thanks for your kindness.
Thanks to all for your great questions, candor, and the rabbit trail discussions!
Philip, it was our pleasure to have you and Dr. Stetzer here. We’d love to do this again if the opportunity arises. Both of you are always welcome to stop in and participate at any time.