We've now heard from the principle "apostles" who were involved in Todd Bentley's coronation and are allegedly overseeing his healing and "restoration".
Bill Johnson of Redding Ca, chimed in last Sunday.
I've seen all of this before…
In a masterful half hour of speaking he managed to deflect any criticism from himself for his utter lack of discerment and actually positioned himself as a compassionate, heroic figure standing against the "sharks" that are circling Bentley.
Critics?
We all have a "political" or "religious" spirit.
There was no apology, no remorse, no recognition of real error or wrong.
I've seen all of this before.
It's the same power lust and accompanying lies that we've all grown way too familiar with.
Johnson is the most dangerous of the group…he is better spoken and his goal of a church built around these "fathers" (of which he is one, of course) will shipwreck untold numbers of gullible saints.
As for what sidelined Bentley, each statement now hints at immorality and things yet to be discovered as well as hints that this ain't Todd's first stay at the NoTell Motel.
Todd Bentley exposed for all to see a movement that is theologically, ethically, and morally bankrupt.
It remains to be seen whether anyone inside the movement comes to the same conclusion…
So who ended it?
Bentley willingly stepping back?
People from Fresh Fire confronting him?
The “covering” apostolic guys confronting him?
A Youtube video that “broke the camel’s back”?
Any answers or educated guesses?
God ended it.
Yes, Michael, this is all sickeningly familiar.
Religious spirit…give me a break.
In my charismatic phase, I asked our pastor, who used that phrase a lot, whether he believed in a literal religious spirit. He said yes.
It was soon after that we left.
“Religious spirit” is code for “how dare you question what’s going on here.”
It’s unbelievable how these idiots can deflect the responsibility off themselves, isn’t it?
Come on!
Of course, but *HOW* it ended matters!
I understand my questions may not have a publically known answer yet.
If TB willingly stepped back is a lot different than if the apostolic guys confronted him.
Michael, you seemingly know the most–can you help?
Lutheran,
This is all so weird that it beggars description.
People actually believed that God would tell His servants to physically attack the sick.
Think about it…
It’s sickening to think about.
Restoration begins with the word “rest”. Unfortunately, that is all some who are caught in sin want to do. Take a little rest hoping that all will be forgotten. No brokenness, no repentance, the only regret is that they were caught.
Kirk,
I can only surmise from what I know and what I’ve seen in the past.
That would be purely speculative and potentially ungodly.
I have to go to work now…
I think Johnson and the others who laid hands on Bentley should also seek forgiveness.
I said it earlier when the first letter from Peter Wagner came out. Regardless how the comments may be worded, the sole purpose is to deflect everything away from their own personal ministry so as to not upset their donor base.
We know that they have no concern for TB and his future (I don’t either, but I never laid hands on the man.) In fact I am sure that they would prefer that he just drive off a cliff.
Protect the image, protect the mailing list - don’t let the flow of money be interrupted.
MLD
Great point!
Bob,
My prediction about your request — it will be a cold day in h-e-double toothpicks before that happens. I hope I’m wrong
but I think I’m right.
Lutheran,
You’re right.
Well, what I *do know* about historical revival STARTS with deep repentance, people falling on their faces, public confessing of sins…
I’m listening to Bill Johnson right now. It’s a MARKED difference between this message & the notes from Alan’s message last Sunday. Alan responds with contrition & a call to accountability; Bill responds fighting & in denial.
Bill says that no one can blame TB’s opponents…but then goes on to do that very thing.
He also makes the statement, “anytime we react to error we create another error.” Say what?! I think Paul would have quite a different opinion in light of 1 Corinthians 5-6, Galatians 1, etc.
Those who cling to power and authority are going to find it stripped from them. The renewal movement’s best course of action is the one Alan recommended. I’m praying God would raise up many more like him.
I have some serious questions here, not just for those in the renewal movement.
Since when do we think that men can commission men for the ministry? Seriously, I know the apostles commissioned Matthias as a replacement for Judas and they were trying to follow OT scripture in doing so.
And, we can surmise, that that appointment or commissioning was from God. We, however, don’t hear much about Matthias in the rest of the NT body of scripture.
Later, God Himself commissioned Paul.
I have been asking myself….what is the difference in these “callings”. What is the fruit of these callings?
Perhaps I am barking up a wrong tree, and if I am, please feel free to set me straight. This, however, is a significant issue for the church today and for ministry everywhere….who does the commissioning and how? Some would say attending seminary and getting advanced degrees in theology is the proper vetting process. Others would respond that God raises up His own and puts them in positions of teaching and authority. Others still would say that either one of those methods are an aberration.
What is the method God uses to commission His people for ministry? Or, are many methods acceptable?
Serious question.
“anytime we react to error we create another error.”
Nice. Very postmodern.
Except it means that you can never correct anyone!! Nice and manipulative.
“either one of those methods is an aberration.”
oh those grammar rules
The comments by MLD and Lutheran up to this point in the thread give light to one thing that has become glaringly apparent to me….
the church has become like the world in that we run our churches, incorporate our churches, fall under the shad of tax benefits in our churches, like businesses in this country. What troubles me the most about many of the problems we have discussed on this blog, boil down to us, and by extension, the church, being like the world. Power, money, glory… it’s what drives the American church. Just my opinion, but one given in repentance and shame.
Linnea -
I’m in the camp that views ordination/commissioning as the church recognizing that which God has already done. I.e., we don’t bring up someone & call them to be a pastor/elder/etc., we lay hands on them because God has already called them as pastors/elders/etc. As you mention, Paul was called by Christ in a very personal way - but when he went into ministry, the church had to recognize the work of God in his life before they trusted him.
I think it’s the same today. God calls people into ministry & they start ministering in whatever capacity that they have…the church recognizes that & then lays hands on them.
Linnea,
I think part of the problem you’re writing about is that the Church has imbibed a business model and has done so for probably 30 years or so, now.
There’s a Lutheran pastor in the LCMS who used to be a marketing executive at one of the automakers in Detroit. He wrote a great book about church growth and church marketing. Nearly all denoms. are doing this, unfortunately. A lot of pastors feel pressure to grow at all costs, from what I’m hearing.
JTK: It seems that the mind of these so called apostles was only one of damage control. Too much of the truth got out.
They were and are concerned for their reputations and platform of influence.
They are not concerned for the people of God and their welfare.
That in itself is sickening, perverse and distressing.
That mindset of power control continues and cuts across many men in many movements.
They are entranced with laying hands on others and the platform of influence and place of prominence it provides them.
The faithful servants in the realm of the mundane will one day be greatly rewarded. Until then they are greatly sustained by our Savior.
Linnea,
As far as commissioning…I’m big on doing it in an orderly, systematic way. God uses other people — He works through means, which “means” no one becomes a pastor by themselves.
I like to see pastors who are well educated, devoted to their calling, like people and have good people skills, and also lead a balanced life.
The focus on process and order doesn’t mean someone might not believe they’re supposed to be pastors. But it shouldn’t end there. That’s just the beginning.
In the LCMS, we’re very blessed to have a very high and specific view of the ministry — it’s called the Office of Holy Ministry.
Starting in jr. high and HS, students who are interested in pursuing the ministry are invited to come to one of our seminaries for weekends and summer programs, to meet seminary profs. and pastors and get a tiny taste of what the ministry is about.
I’ve said this before on the blog, but I think there’s a big difference between ministry and “the ministry.” I think groups who don’t have it well defined can run into trouble because of this.
Just my 2 cents. Have a great day!
Vic,
I think you’re right.
I keep thinking — do the people who go to these churches care about all this stuff going on?
Linnea: Tim and Lutheran both define means of confirming a call to ministry before commissioning that I would affirm as wise and biblical.
In the pastoral epistles Paul charged Timothy to carry the process of confirming the call of men to the ministry of church oversight and leadership to do so without showing favoritism.
The neglect and or defiance in regards to this command has IMO caused much damage to the body of Christ .
Men play favorites in the presence of God and in the midst of his people. It is sad.
Lutheran, that is the question. Do they care? I do not know. It seems many do not and those that do may be confused and may lack a decent place to test and share their thoughts and concerns.
Tim and Lutheran…thanks for responding.
Tim…thank you for the reminder that the laying on of hands and commissioning is recognizing what God has already called and commissioned. I now remember that from my CCABQ days.
Lutheran, your views of who is called into the Holy Ministry are reflected in Paul admonitions to Timothy in 1 Timothy 3 .
I could not open the link…
This is very disturbing…
I need to hear the message…to say that Todd’s opponents have a political or religious spirit would be the most disturbing betrayal I can imagine.
I wonder if it was a religious spirit that killed Ananias and Sapphira? The fear of the Lord … oh my.
Let me listen to Bill’s message and see what is there.
One of my all time favorite calls. When God moved upon Michael Newnham to continue the PP and the raising up of FTA during the interlude.
I got the link and got it open.
I remember an observation earlier (MLD’s?) about how insidious evil is…
You’re all noting how permeated with business models the various groups of Believers have become. Amen to that observation. We are told to purge out the leaven and it would take a miracle of God, Himself, to purge the establishment churches today.
hey, maybe that makes another case for a rapturing out of the Body?
Let me get this straight….
Those who think the overseers are in error are guilty of killing Uriah? So instead of Uriah dying because of David’s cover up, he died because of the religious spirit?
I gotta listen to that again.
I am sick.
“Parking the Bentley”
Funny how things work out sometimes, as Michael was publishing this post, I was putting the finishing touches on my own.
Ironically, that’s exactly what I’ve decided to do at 7:00 am this morning, “Park the Bentley.”
http://northwestmusings.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/im-moving-on/
I listened to Johnson. Cop out and excuses!
Guys, during my sin 18 years ago, I was doing the same thing. This whole thing makes me sick! I too stood in the pulpit teaching God’s Word while living in sin. I was a disgrace, and so is Todd Bentley. Don’t blame his “meltdown” on pressures from ministry or intense schedule. Put the blame where it belongs, on him. Put the blame on those who knew what was going on (past and present) and still laid hands on him. The only hands that should have been laid on him would be hands that removed him from the pulpit and deception.
Miriam posted this Bill Johnson transcript up last on her website.
Go here to read,
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/bill-johnson-on-todd-bentley-admits-previous-affair-blames-present-affair-on-todds-critics/
Bob,
Bless you for what you’ve said. You’ve been there and done that. Much wisdom in what you’re saying.
God bless you, friend!
BD, you know better than that.
They are saying that there is a difference between the heart of Nathan and the heart of Shimei.
And you know the difference.
I probably could/should have left out the word ‘establishment.’ The need for good orderly accounting has progressed over into a manipulation and bottom line mentality.
“One of my all time favorite calls. When God moved upon Michael Newnham to continue the PP and the raising up of FTA during the interlude.
Thanks for remembering FTA, Vic!
Checking in for a moment. I know I don’t post very much nowadays, but I still lurk quite often. That, and I don’t have anything to say about Todd Bentley and the heresy hunters
Skip -
Are you still trying to defend this mess? At what point, sir, does simple repentance and confession come in? Bill’s whole message ignored this issue & deflected any responsibility from himself…even with all his self-righteous, “I’m involved personally” schtick.
“Parking the Bentley”…where? How about run the Bentley over a cliff? I am not suggesting mayhem. BTW. Just don’t know how this monster can get parked unless God, Himself, does it.
I went over to Scott’s blog and was looking at the Johnson transcript.
Did anyone notice the language he used? All passive. That’s what people do when they’re avoiding any personal responsibility — all of a sudden, it’s some outside force that’s doing things!!
(Church lady voice) Could it be…Satan?
These “Apostles.”
The reason these self–appointed, prelest-ridden “apostles” are loathe to ‘fess up and admit they have no more spiritual insight and authority than a kitten is because it would demonstrate that they aren’t apostles at all and these emperors would be shown to be have no clothes.
My opinion, of course.
Ok
I gotta find out if I am still part of the family.
I want to know if there is room in the family for those who disagree with the fathers.
Some of us have not suggested that Todd should not be thrown under the bus…we have no blood lust for him. What we have suggested is that the true issues be dealt with. Todd’s marital problems are not the core issue. They are the way God has dealt with Todd to get him out of the public eye so the real issues can be dealt with. I believe Bill is right on many things. BUT…
I have a lot to think about. It seems that to criticize Bill or Todd or the renewal is to deserve public exposure and rebuke. And to go along to get along is the way of it. Being called religious and political does hurt…and it rankles the heart…but none of us is above and beyond those possibilities. So since Bill is one of the fathers … I am going to carefully consider his words.
I urge everyone here to really consider these things and to consider whether Bill Johnson is speaking with revelatory impact. I urge everyone here to consider if your own position is wrong.
We have all said a great many words…let us see if we can consider our ways.
Gotta go.
Xenia,
Exactly!!!
I would like to listen to the Bill Johnson message, but cannot open it on apple or pc. Can anyone here suggest an alternative for a plug in?
Xenia,
You said it and said it very well.
Lutheran, actually that wasn’t my blog that had the transcript of Bill Johnson’s message. That was Endtimesprophetic. Just thought I clear that up.
I just think that anything that calls itself “renewal” as if what everyone else is doing is wrong or inadequate - something that goes outside the mainstream to appoint it’s own apostles - something that is so flamboyant as seen in a Todd Bentley type, but at the same time so top down driven and so quick to circle the wagons - just seems wrong to me.
Babs, perhaps you need to start a new ‘family business’ and do the movement right.
Leaven permeates the whole lump. Praying that the focus here stays on Christ. Stay strong and don’t compromise.
Got a lot to get done today and that’s good, because evil is so frustrating and so easy to get sucked into in the name of not being judgemental. IMO
can a moderator please get my last post out of moderation. It had a link.
Do all posts with links get stuck? Mine seem to.
The edicts in Redding become the manifestos and ammunition here. We are soldiers on the front lines here. Thanks for posting this, Michael, I’ll listen when I have some more time.
mld,
you’re spot on with your views on “renewal”. You have know ideal of the arrogance, disdain and attempts of “correction” that I receive here locally.
almost makes me wanna be a cessationist cent
These words were ‘decrees’ and ‘prophecies’ spoken over Todd Bentley during the June 23rd commissioning. One little observation on my nobody special part, the ‘word IF’ is not mentioned one time.
Peter Wagner
This commissioning represents a powerful spiritual transaction taking place in the invisible world. With this in mind, I take the apostolic authority that God has given me and I decree to Todd Bentley:
• Your power will increase.
• Your authority will increase.
• Your favor will increase.
• Your influence will increase.
• Your revelation will increase.
I also decree that:
• A new supernatural strength will flow through this ministry.
• A new life force will penetrate this move of God.
• A government will be established to set things in their proper order.
• God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error.
• New relationships will surface to open gates for the future.
Che Ahn
Recognizing that God has chosen you and appointed you to bear much and lasting fruit in this Lakeland revival, and revival around the world; recognizing that He has called you as an Ephesians 4 evangelist and a revivalist, moving in signs and wonders; knowing that you have walked in a manner worthy of the Lord, pleasing Jesus in every way; bearing fruit in every good work; and growing in the intimacy and knowledge of God, we as your brothers and your friends who have a deep love for you, Shonnah, your whole family, just esteem you.
We are here to support you. We are here to commission you in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit — with special oil from Chuck Pierce. It’s called “revival oil.” Chuck could not make it but he sent this Fed Ex for you (he’s in Africa).
Clarice Fluitt:
“For the word of the Lord would say, ‘Behold a vanguard. Behold the tugboat that is cutting through the ice of religious traditions–the cruel, hard things. The understanding of the mind of man will now bow to the reality of the revelation of the finished work of Calvary. Behold, saith God, you have been equipped with cutting power. You have been equipped to go through those traditions of the mind of man, saith God, and you are pulling the church into the realm of glory. Behind you is a great ship that is laden with healing, deliverance, and prosperity.
This is the word to you, O man of God: Arise, kill and eat. No longer, no longer, no longer will men call unclean what I have called clean
Rick Joyner:
“Todd, your ministry is very appropriately named Fresh Fire. And you have certainly been bringing fresh fire. And even when you were going through the dark night of the soul, I thought you had more fire on you than many. The worst state we can every fall into is lukewarmness and God has sent you as an antidote for that lukewarm spirit.
And the fire has been birthed here; it has been released here. You’ve unstopped a well. You have other wells to unstop in other cities and other places; this is just the beginning. And there is longevity too. There is increase, but there is also longevity coming. There are many wells, but they are oil wells, and they catch on fire when you unstop them
Sharon Stone:
“Todd, the Spirit of God says years from now people will look at this time and they will recognize it as when their God showed up and created within the church a new heart, says the Lord. And I will genesis in the midst of the chaos in the world today and I will not just bring a mending, but I will bring forth that which is new, that which is dedicated, that which is decided, that which is pure.
Richard Madden:
“For the Lord would say unto thee that this day you have loosed upon this earth what I have wanted for centuries to come forth — a kingly anointing which will bring in money, money, money. Because the businessmen will rise up and they will go forth under this anointing, and no more will they stay hidden in the shadows. They shall go forth into the political world, into the business world, into the military world and great changes shall take place, saith the Lord, because this night is the night when you started out speaking your first words about the kingdom of God.”
Wesley Campbell: ”
Todd, as a fellow Canadian, there is the word HONOR written over you tonight because of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You have honored the generations that have gone before you. As a son, you have reached out to the fathers and you have said, ‘Bless me.’
And you have blessed us tonight and so we honor you. You’ve honored the word of God, you’ve honored the Spirit of God, you’ve honored the moving the Holy Spirit, and the ways of God. So, tonight, we just affirm that the rest of honor that is upon your life will follow you now in every nation that you go. And you will draw men and women to you that seek honor and want to walk together and want to be what God wants them to be in this generation.
Todd Bentley, the word HONOR rests upon your life.”
Perhaps we should have these guys do a show on the Bentley and the Apostles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfbjqwpXQVA&eurl=http://www.extremetheology.com/
It should be clear to all that these scoundrels are not apostles and anyone who considers them to be their “fathers” should consider a major paradigm shift.
“a kingly anointing which will bring in money, money, money”…..
Well, at least they got one thing right.
Dread -
“I urge everyone here to really consider these things and to consider whether Bill Johnson is speaking with revelatory impact. I urge everyone here to consider if your own position is wrong.”
Although I don’t know the depth of your relationship with Johnson, I know you have a great deal of respect for the man. But I must say that he is NOT speaking with what you term “revelatory impact.” As you wrote, no one is looking for blood…I grieve for TB’s family for what they are enduring, and though I believe TB is a heretic & false teacher, I wouldn’t wish this situation on anyone.
Yet Bill Johnson is not appealing to come around family; he’s wanting to pull the curtain back over the Wizard of Oz. It doesn’t work that way.
And what about Che Ahn telling Bentley - “I must decrease and you must increase.”
He should eat those words but pride won’t allow him.
Here’s the link to Che Ahn’s false words over Bentley - though most of you have already seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIAuD_OEcUs
“And what about Che Ahn telling Bentley - “I must decrease and you must increase.””
Don’t stop him - let him keep decreasing.
Just watched part of the clip. Ahn played the martyr card for the whole movement.
I wonder if that was truly prophetic…..hmmmm….
sure did get the bobble head going for Bentley.
If Bill Johnson is a father, he is a derelict father who owes a great deal of back pay spiritual support to the children of God.
Dread, spiritual fathers according to the Apostle John hold value in the body in this sense: They know and trust God as He has revealed himself in Scripture. They are content to become more like God in terms of character while living amongst the family of God and serving them.
Scripture alone is revelatory and those filled with the Spirit are content to mine it and heed it with all diligence for the true riches in Christ and deposit of real godliness that are found in it.
Revelatory Scripture has this to reveal to us as to how God views true spiritual fathers:
IJn. 2:13: “I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.”
again
IJn. 2:14 “I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.”
Bill Johnson represents a modern day refactored gnostic super father mindset and attitude as opposed to the simple focused service of a true father who will labor in love for the welfare and maturity of those entrusted to him.
Resisting the revisionist redefinitions of truth “renewal” vic,
Something to consider
Sharon Stone was there prophesying? I wonder what her basic instinct was about Bentley?
Puz,
“Fathers.”
How come these guys get to be called “fathers” yet criticize the RC and EO for called their priests “father?”
…That is to say, their co-religionists criticize the EO and RC for calling priests “father.” Never heard these particular gentlemen speak on the subject.
Xenia, the EO Priest that I knew gave a well worded explanation that seemed biblical and reasonable and justified the calling of EO Priests “fathers”.
I cannot remember the details of his reasoning and explanation.
Do you have something you can share? It might be helpful.
WE raised our concerns, we’ve questioned the validity, and now Bill Johnson puts us on the defensive, by accusing us of having a religious spirit. How many times have I seen this tactic?
Some of the things he said:
“anytime we react to error, we create more error…”
“denominationalism requires disassociation to prove devotion to truth……….”
he takes the story of Uriah out of context….
he is good at spin as he tries to make this about the critics of his movement instead of the movement itself.
Centy
You’re right. This is a no brainier! Johnson is playing “spin doctor”. Watching the Ahn video was even more sicking.
Gotta say…. tastes like Koolaide…
Sleeping Dread
Folks, don’t hold your breath waiting for repentance or apologies. It’s all about The Big Shew, if you know what I mean. It’s all so flippin phoney and ego driven. The real heroes of the faith are nearly invisible.
Check out 2 Corinthians chapters 10,11 & 12 for a “profile” of Paul. It’s the antithisis of many who occupy pulpits and tv cameras today.
I’ve been waiting a VERY long time for any sort of apology or repentance from my former situation. Frankly, I no longer expect it in this life. God knows. God sees. He alone is Righteous.
There is so much bull being slung about that it’s hard to keep track of all the issues.
Johnson and Co. are obviously privy to more damning information than we are at this time.
They have a responsibility as “fathers” (I want to vomit at the thought) to honestly inform the millions of people who observed this circus what the truth is about Bentley.
They cannot, however, criticize his theology or claims because they all tell the same lies and affirm all the practices except doing violence to the sick.
What Johnson did was silence those inside the movement…the most wicked statement I’ve heard since the CC scandals was that “religious spirits hide behind a love for God’s holiness”.
That was vile and I won’t let it pass.
That was the kill shot for anyone who does love God and His church and cares about the holiness and purity of the Body.
Bill Johnson marked himself as a dangerous and divisive man and all these faux apostles are as one with him.
When I took on CC, men within the movement risked all to stand with me.
Where are the men of God in this movement who will do the same?
Doctrine matters, folks…character matters.
In all of this please know that I count BD as a man of God and respect his stand and grieve for his pain.
Victorious, there’s a couple of explanations that I found very satisfying. I’m at my son’s house and don’t have my Orthodox Study Bible with me, but when I get home this evening I’ll look at the footnote to the verse where Jesus says “Call no man father” and report what I find.
Michael
Great post! Correct doctrine should breed correct character.
Xenia,
Thanks. Look forward to it.
Whatever son that is, the Mr. T or Mr. D. Say hi to him for me!
Michael
Are you at liberty to say what you are being trained to do?
Vic, I’m here babysitting my granddaughter who is the daughter of Mr. T.
I’ll tell him hi. By the way, Rebecca is staying with us for the month of August. She is much improved. Thanks for everybody’s prayers! She’s not all better, but she is better.
I pity the fool that messes with Xenia’s granddaughter!
Xenia that is great news about Rebecca. I pray that she grasps even more that she is beloved no matter what state she may be in or going through.
Lady Victorious and I would love to pay her a visit whenever she is ready. We love San Diego too.
Wish I go to MB right now as well; but I also know that a lot of the Peninsula is shrouded in fog this time of year too.
We always loved Toro Park and Carmel Valley during those months.
Tim- LOL
Vic- our door is always open to you and your fam!
Xenia, thanks some day we will partake of your hospitality.
Hey Michael,
Thanks for the notice. Man you sure talk bad about my peeps. Ease up a bit…they are your second cousins even if they drink too much at teh family reunions.
And Vic… be careful…not too harsh…and try to remember you might be wrong… I have been.
Maybe this word was from God, but not the way the “prophets” thought. Maybe this will be a time that people will look back on as being when God woke up His church from chasing experiences and gave us a new heart to search after Him in truth. Maybe out of all this chaos, there will be a beginning (genesis) of people turning back to scripture as their guide, rather than their feelings or what some Christian celebrity says.
Brian, let’s see if we can’t pray your *maybe* into reality. Lord Jesus, Your *Words* bring life and health and peace. Quicken us to study and not be ashamed…workmen rightly dividing the Word of Truth…
One of the reasons that PP cannot dialogue on this is the complete rejection of the movement. Here is what I mean.
It could easily be argued that the apostles who went to Lakeland facilitated the exposure of Todd. How? Simple, as soon as the apostles got involved Todd’s failures surfaced and the meeting was reduced to the local church(where it belonged all the time)
Now there are numerous reports that they are working on solutions and resolutions and reconciliations. Giving them time is not a bad idea. Now for sure I wish one or more would just publicly say that they regret moving so fast but, it is not unreasonable to give them time to work on solutions.
But I join you all in asking that they be open solutions. Now Todd’s private life cannot be played out in public but it can be reported openly.
Anyway…there are many other possible interpretations … but I have been asked by some for time. That is not a bad thing.
Dread,
UGM
Dread, I appreciate you and what you do on here.
I try to walk a line of loving Jesus, His Word, His church without outright rejecting the power of God to heal today and do miraculous signs.
I’ll never justify sin (help me, Lord), and I also don’t want to reject ONE THING God doing miraculously. I’ve done it before, and I don’t ever want to do it again.
That makes it hard to throw some ministers under the bus so quickly.
Maybe it’s being naïve…
Maybe it’s the fear of the Lord…
When you’re sick, why turn to the people that wanted to kill you when you were healthy?
So the people that have called the renewal leaders heretics and demonic from day one are now going to offer them advice?
No thanks.
Sanballat and Tobiah redux.
So Wilson is Nehemiah rebuilding the ruins and we are Sanballat and Tobiah.
Let’s see no evidence of a rebuilt faith from their circus,
many people will be in ruin and confusion and idiots like myself will put one hand to rebuilding those of the faith and hold a sword in the other to defend because the enemy has been given opportunity to confuse the faith within the household of God and slander the gospel in the courts of the world.
Smiling and believing “Jesus Is a Shepherd” idiot vic
Skip,
Do try to be more dramatic, if possible.
I understand that it must be somewhat uncomfortable to support a demon driven heretic, but no one has yet to mention the death penalty for heresy.
You are rapidly becoming a caricature of yourself.
Skip,
“So the people that have called the renewal leaders heretics and demonic from day one are now going to offer them advice?”
I have no advise for these guys - I just want them to disappear. They proved themselves to be false, they should just go out of business.
Nothing they do will fix their mess.
Dread,
Can you give me any good reason why this “movement” should not be not only rejected, but held in utter contempt?
In ABQ recently a deadbeat dad and an idiot who compares the blessing of God to marijuana use paraded themselves as ministers of Jesus Christ.
Bentley and these assorted cons are the fruit that has come out of this movement since the forties…enough is enough.
You are too good of a man with too good of a name to continue to be part of this.
what victorious said
let’s bend Skip’s assessment a bit because as I see it, when people tell you you have a disease and want it gone that is not the same thing as trying to kill you exactly.
for my part I’m not ‘christian’ enough to want to bail them out anyway, but I so want them to get off the stage and go heal.
I should be clearer…I agreed with what victorious said…what I posted after that statement was my thots
>>>So the people that have called the renewal leaders heretics and demonic from day one are now going to offer them advice?<<<
I offer TB the same advice I offered from day one- see an exorcist, become a Christian, and find another line of work.
Skip’s buddy Rick Joyner has now chimed in…
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Articles/1000036150/MorningStar_Ministries/Media/Special_Bulletins/2008/_12_The.aspx
Please pass the Kool-Aid…
I listened to the sermon, no offense but I actually found some of what he said rather interesting and need to think on him. The one thing that almost literally knocked me out of my chair. “I spent hours on the phone”, I cant relate cant, I would never want, actually I think I would get physically ill if someone spent hours on me, even minutes is hard. One does not need, never, no mater what. I was literally blown away that three men spent hours with TB trying to help. Here in the cheep seats it does not happen, and it wont, ever. So I am needing to repent of my envy. I believe that is why I am so angry, not at TB or his teaching, though I feel hurt as I actually dropped my cynicism for a while to just want to believe, but that is my moral failing not his, one should never drop their cynicism.
I almost started to weep, another failing, hours, I cant relate, just cant even wrap my mind around such a thing. Actually taking time, now dont get me wrong, I do not expect this, and at this stage in the game I would just walk away from, no I would run. I dont get it, I really dont.
I almost broke on this, “if it takes one month, a year, ten years, they are family”, this does not happen in my experience, it does not. Five minutes is basically six minutes to long. It literally brakes my heart, I cant imagine that kind of time.
I used to think that the dispensationalists overdid it with emphasizing the literalness of all Scripture…and I still do.
But to read Rick Joyner prattle on and on about 8/8/08…I mean, give me a break. Has all the impact of a popcorn fart.
Must be a happy medium somewhere in between!
John Crowder is the man.
I personally told John that in 36 years I have never heard better teaching than he gave Friday night in Albuquerque.
Lutheran…a popcorn fart?! Oh man, I know a 7 year old boy who is going to love that line.
John Crowder is a blasphemer who will split hell wide open unless he repents.
I worry about you, Skip…
Oh look Lutheran you went off and made me smile, and I had the entire pity band gearing up. Popcorn fart, that is cute.
brian,
There are many here who would be honored to extend their hands and hearts to you.
Michael…lots of activity on City of Refuge today…
You know, we all have to go with what we find liberating and what equips us to deal with the challenges we face every day, both from outside of ourselves and from inside of ourselves.
When I first saw Rick Joyner in 1991 I thought, Wow, finally someone is saying the things that I believe.
I felt the same way listening to John C on Friday.
I understand these things are controversial.
But what I find works for me, what gets me through the day with the Lord, includes not only the scripture and personal communion with Him but also the teaching from these ministries that others find abominable.
I love my wife, I love my children, I am walking with the Lord.
Sorry if my green pastures offend you.
I certainly do not begrudge you yours.
I know that Michael, this is on me as much or more then others, I dont trust, something I am working on one reason I mentioned the pity party I was gearing up for, instead I decided to watch 24 and learn from Jack’s interpersonal skill set and family interactions. Basically not to take myself so seriously.
Now I can rest, the down under cowboy is teaching his dog to get a root beer out of an ice chest. I love rfd.
***I almost broke on this, “if it takes one month, a year, ten years, they are family”, this does not happen in my experience, it does not. Five minutes is basically six minutes to long. It literally brakes my heart, I cant imagine that kind of time.***
Honestly, he was probably only saying that because it sounded good. Maybe he managed to convince himself that he means it. But it’s not going to happen. He’s not going to give Bentley that kind of time or attention. He’s just trying to look good while the cameras are on him, but a month from now when everyone has forgotten about this he’s going to drop Bentley, forget about him, and move on to other things.
It’ll be like Dobson doing a press conference and claiming he was going to stand by Haggard and help him work through his issues, then three weeks later issuing a press release saying, nevermind, I’m too busy running my ministry to minister to Haggard.
to Jessica’s 7:22 observation about the sincerity issue…I’m not so sure that the people in this movement
are not sincere. It’s just that their sincerity is not God driven…I think (dunno) that they’re very ambitious to be important players on the stage of the Christian religion. They see themselves as engines on the track for God, but they look like runaway box cars from where I’m sitting…dunno, tho. I only know what I read on the PP blog site. 
Skip you self described and nailed your own problem.Unfortunately you paint it as a virtue. As “long as it works for me and I and my family are happy” who gives a rip whether or not a ministry offends God or destroys other people.
Walking with God includes dealing with the things that offend God and harm His people.
You are your brothers keeper and playing public relations for heretics does not count in fulfilling that obligation.
Notice how easily Skip transitioned from one scam to another?
One of the many other “Fathers” (John Arnott) of the renewal has spoken:
“Had any of us known what was just ahead, perhaps we would have been able to intervene before things went into crisis.”
“Furthermore, it has now come out that there has been some inappropriate behavior, both with excessive drinking and also with a female member of his staff. Please don’t jump to conclusions or assume the worst, but this behavior is wrong before the Lord.”
“We are all receiving many phone calls and reading much correspondence about all these matters at the moment. Some of it is quite hopeful and some of it is not.”
“Excessive drinking” too, nah, can’t be. I’m waiting for the illicit drug use part to come out as well.
Michael said,
Dread
“Can you give me any good reason why this “movement” should not be not only rejected, but held in utter contempt?”
First of all, the part of the movement I joined was a group of Spirit-filled evangelicals that had been rejected by local churches because of the practice of the charismata. There were no doctrines within the group that were Pentecostal or made up out of the air.
I never joined with the two luminaries that you alluded to earlier, nor would I. In recent times the blending together with more Pentecostal types has been disturbing.
They should not be rejected out of hand because thousands of your brothers and sisters in Christ are among them. As far as holding it in contempt…right now I have to say there is plenty to have contempt for.
Michael, I will not attempt to defend renewal to you I will just say that it is a many colored robe and I am not comfortable with some of it.
I would like to address Rick Joyner’s bit on TODD… First of all Todd would never be invited or welcomed in my pulpit but he would be welcomed in my church. Had I been Rick and Todd told me his situation. It is very simple. I would have said. ‘Todd, you come to the meetings but when you do we will pray for you and minister to you.’ That would have kept Joyner from the embarrassment that is now his to have been lied to by Todd about his hidden affection for or whatever it is with another woman.
Finally, I am the reason you should not have contempt for the whole meeting. There are many of us…
So my family is weird. But I love them. Now to be sure they may not let me stay as I will not tolerate all that is going on just now. I have set my face to speak out in the open about my concerns and see if the leaders will welcome that kind of challenge.
I am pretty sick of theological sleight of hand that finds justification for everything. Peter and David’s sins are not there to give us an excuse to indulge others like them but to warn us and to stop us in the fear of the Lord.
Right now there is not much …here or there.
Sorry, I forgot to provide th link.
http://www.tacf.org/tacforghome/Visitors/LakelandToddBentleyUpdate/tabid/761/Default.aspx
If you have the chance, I’d encourage you to read the update.
Sounds like a scandal of biblical proportions, STC.
“When I first saw Rick Joyner in 1991 I thought, Wow, finally someone is saying the things that I believe.”
Joyner believes in a Docetisctic version of Jesus, that is heresy. Joyner is a heretic. Hmmmm….
If anyone does not believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh he has the spirit of anti-christ, so says Scripture.
OK now Im devastated the dead big foot in the ice chest next to the bud is actually a rubber Halloween costume. The next thing someone will say bob Lazare did not work at area never mind.
BD, stay strong in the Lord. I hope that it is the problem that has arisen that is being disparaged here and not any of the Body of Christ involved.
Brian… too much Art Bell.
brian,
“OK now Im devastated the dead big foot in the ice chest next to the bud is actually a rubber Halloween costume”
Don’t give up yet - Skip will come forward and defend the Big Foot hoax and all those involved. In fact I think he just spoke with Big Foot last week and is in full support of his ministry.
We can’t judge too quickly
So, Skipper, did you take your kids to the John Crowder “let’s pretend we’re doing drugs for Jesus” show, did you?
You know, the whole let’s mimic shooting drugs into our veins, snorting cocaine, huffing the bark dust from the Mt. of Olives, toking baby Jesus and my favorite, sticking a straw into your bible and acting like you’re slurping down a margarita.
C’mon, you didn’t take your kids to see that too, did you?
MLD: Chuck Missler is also going to appear and remind us that BigFoot is descended from the Nephilim.
Eric H, I researched that charge against Joyner, actually reading 8 of his books to see if it was valid.
It is not.
One sentence from one book does not create a picture of what Rick teaches. You can make an argument that he does not accept the eternal humanity of Christ, if by “human” you mean “descendant of Adam”.
Man was made in God’s image, not vice-versa. God became a man. That is exactly what Rick teaches very explicitly. That man Jesus Christ died for my sins and yours. Whether the resurrected Christ is “human” can be debated. My position is that we are in His image, He is not in ours.
Someone needs to tell the senior leaders of Bethel Church that they’re premature in their ‘motto.’ Thy kingdom come on earth is a good prayer, but it won’t be ‘as it is in Heaven’ until Jesus returns. They are presumptuous if they think that they can force Heaven down prematurely. Maybe that’s where they first went off. IMHO.
This the man that Skip says is one of the “Best Teachers” he’s ever heard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNdlexU4eT4
between phone calls and ponders I haven’t had my supper.
time for a bite to eat and to bed - God keep
BD I will redeem myself and commit to praying that the Lord will open a door for the Word spoken through you and that those who hear will choose to truly hear what the Spirit speaks to the churches.
Yes, you are the reason that we should not reject the true core of those who simply want to be who they are in the Lord as people of the presence through the promise of the Spirit.
More John Crowder, Skip’s new favorite. Skip is having withdrawls now ’cause he can’t watch Bentley on god tv anymore. So, instead he’s gone from bad to worse.
Watch this video and then you’ll understand why Skip talks the way he does here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeQEH_jHYig&eurl=
Ps. 62,
You’ve nailed it. I noticed that motto, too.
I maintain that a lot of theological error slips in becuase of this “Kingdom Now” crap — there’s a tension between the “Now” and the
“Not Yet.”
Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.” How much plainer could it be? Yet these “refuse to grow up” churches and Christians think they can “play God” by bringing in the Kingdom themselves. What folly.
There’s nothing wrong with wishing for God’s Kingdom to come. It’s part of the Lord’s Prayer (but just one phrase out of quite a few).
It’s delusionary to think you can make it happen by your own efforts.
STC, was it Bob Dylan that said, Don’t criticize what you can’t understand?
You know, as much as you disagree with me, you do not seem vicious or petty. I like that.
I took one of my many delightful children to see Crowder, and he found it “wonderfully insane.”
Dude you took one of God’s children in to the presence of a heretic.
Vic, you mean “Get whacked and stay whacked” is not in the Bible?
Skip, my man, Bob Dylan is your standard? Well, so be it. Let’s go with the Album “Infidels.” First cut? “Jokerman.”
That’s a better analogy for these twerps in my book
17 Apostles…
And not one could spot a liar.
Ahn prophesied his great marriage.
Wagner his increase in everything but tonnage.
Johnson ‘thought’ his past problems were resolved.
Joyner had the man lie to his face(which did not seem to offend him) and everyone had a great day of crazy 8s and shooting 8-ball
Has anyone heard from Arnott?
And all anyone seems to want to do is prove that it was a great revival and that it goes on full steam ahead.
and not one person has even felt the need to express regret for anything but Todd.
Reality TV is boring next to this.
What does that have to do with being rooted and grounded in Christ?
My last comment. That was for Skip.
Skip:
If that’s “not” what Joyner believes, I have a question.
He was called out on that serious error “before” his updated version. Why dis he not change it then, why does he let it remain now.
As for Jesus forever remaining in human, albeit glorified body, that is NOT up for debate. He will return just as he left and reign forever just the same.
Crowder is not just a heretic but a joke. Skip, I have always hoped that you are pulling our legs playing the devils advocate. You go from Bentley to Crowder quoting along the way Dylan. I’m not sure what to think. I’m really concerned about you.
Eric H, a little diversion in the form of a question.
Were you ever at CCMB? I saw the link on your blog.
Vic, this is the way I see it. Every once in a while somebody comes along who majors in the scriptures the rest of us have been ignoring.
There are a lot of scriptures about angels and pleasure. They are in the Bible!
But because they do not fit into our framework of understanding, we ignore them.
Crowder preaches the gospel, he preaches the Bible, his doctrine is orthodox as far as I can tell. But he also delves into some scriptures that have been dormant in the church traditionally. I tried to be a bit of a Berean about his ministry, and I have to admit he has a point if you look at what the Bible says.
Skip, unstable men twist the Scriptures. The epistles that deal specifically with heretics highlight the fact that false teachers major on and focus on speculative notions about angels.
That’s my point, Eric - He is forever in a God body, the one we were created in the image of. We were created in His image! If you define “human” as “looking like God looks”, then yes, Jesus is human. If you define “human” as “a descendant of Adam” (which I think is more accurate) then no, He is not, because that person died. For our sins!
Vic, people in the Bible encountered angels. It is clear that we are not to worship them. I do not think it could be said the Crowder “focuses” on them. It would be more accurate to say that he openly acknowledges their presence on earth and their role to help believers. I find that in the Bible.
I will agree that the “speculative notions” comment could be applied to Crowder. But I do not find that he thereby tramples on any of the foundational doctrines of the faith.
Skip, so “Puffing baby Jesus” and “huffing dust from the Gethsemane” is a revealing a dormant truth in the bible about pleasure? This thinking is even beyond you, at least I thought it was. These references cheapen and make a mockery out of our Lord.
Skip this is classic heresy. Your 9;30pm. You demonstrate that you have been studying heretics and no wonder you defend them for you have become a heretic in terms of the doctrine that you believe, define and defend.
You have twisted Scripture to suit your preference. You have separated the Man Jesus of Nazareth from the Risen Christ.
Dudes, we should be concerned for Skip and careful concerning his influence.
His influence on others that is.
Bob S., when I see someone leading people to Christ, I am slow to call him a “heretic”.
Some people sing “Bringing in the Sheaves” and go about doing just that, and some people sing “Rooting Out the Tares” to the same melody.
I have a soft spot in my heart for the former. Maybe my doctrine is wrong.
>>>If you define “human” as “a descendant of Adam” (which I think is more accurate) then no, He is not, because that person died.<<<
This is probaby the most heretical think Skip has said yet.
Skip,
Have you lost your mind?
*thinG
For A Member of the Family In Danger
O God, You are my rock, my fortress, my deliverer. Imploring Your mercy, I come to You in this hour of great danger and distress for a family member. I put all my trust in You. Help me remain calm, composed, confident, and trustful, for You are with me. In You alone I find comfort and strength. Forgive my anxiety and my little faith. Keep me from doubting that You are in control. Even in these distressing moments, I give You all honor, glory, and praise, for in You alone do I put my trust.
Your will be done, O Lord. May it be a gracious and compassionate will. Today I look through a glass darkly, but in You there is no darkness. Grant me strength to believe that You work all things together for good for those who love You.
Good and gracious God, uphold my loved one during this time of tremendous trail. Grant strength of faith, courage, perseverance, and Your peace, which surpasses all understanding. Please protect my family member who is in danger, and above all, preserve us in Your grace now and forever, through my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen (139)
Lutheran Book of Prayer
BD, please consider this:
Any movement or fellowship needs to carefully and diligently lay the foundation of Jesus Christ; starting with clear descriptive doctrine concerning the person and work of Christ in redemption.
As we know you possess such pastoral care and have acquired and demonstrated doctrinal clarity; I truly believe that this is your starting point and defines the work you are called to undertake.
Your rebukes and correction will arise from this foundation.
From this foundation there will be abundance of blessing in the fullness of the Spirit if this foundation is laid. You will encounter conflict and opposition as you know the great effort our enemy has undertaken in confusing and distorting the person of Christ. When even anointed men are “mindful of the things of men” they can go astray and find themselves unwitting pawns of the enemy in their confusion and distortion however sincere it may be.
Please heartily take this exhortation to prayer.
You have been furnished with the belt of truth by Our Master and Commander. May His strength be yours in daily measure.
TY victorious
John Crowder is just another in my list of Gnostic comics.
Skip, I don’t know where he is leading people, but it is not to Christ.
Why does he try so hard to look and sound drunk? The video posted earlier was just a YouTube joke they put together - but this one is in front of an audience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec91wvUY7Yo&feature=related
can anyone tell me what he is talking about? The people in the audience, I hate to say are idiots for inviting him to their church. They deserve what they get.
SC: Your prayer, how appropriate and fitting.
Thank you,
BD, very welcome.
Skip
If you believe Crowder teaches correct doctrine, then I believe your doctrine is wrong.
MLD~ These Clowns are actually making a living out of this act. Can you believe that people would actually pay money to go sit through that? Shame on the stupid Pastors for inviting these parasites into their churches.
Michael,
Everyone here is always making the Gnostic claim against renewal people. There is a thread.
Give clear definition to Gnosticism.
Give clear illustrations of the forms it takes renewal.
Give clear illustrations of the forms it takes in evangelicalism.
Post clips of examples of Gnostic seepage in preaching.
Debate the issues…
I just KNOW it would work…maybe wait till you return.
Would anyone here let John Crowder serve them communion?
Watch this weirdo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeQEH_jHYig&feature=related
Babs, is this guy a part of your family. If he is he’s your perverted uncle.
Babs,
They are gnostic in that they claim to have a special knowledge. Even Skip says that they know how to preach from verses that no one else knows how to preach on.
Skip,
From your 7:10
“But what I find works for me,…”
I think that’s what Eve was looking for also - not God’s word, ‘but what worked for her’
Hell MLD,
That makes everyone here gnostic…most especially the Calvinists.
Gotta do better than that.
A video by Patricia King about TB:
http://www.extremeprophetic.com/
Babs,
What I am seeing John Crowder do on these YouTube videos is no different than if he pulled his pants down and mooned the audience.
The sad part is that they would probably applaud, yell amen and fill the offering plate.
‘If you define “human” as “a descendant of Adam” (which I think is more accurate) then no, He is not, because that person died.’
This is probably the most heretical think Skip has said yet.
Yes…this is blatant heresy. And serious stuff.
I have seen Crowder before…once is enough.
Exactly, MLD. What some pastors today do to fill a sanctuary and bring in the money is an absolute disgrace. And, I am even more upset with the leadership (Board of Directors/Congregation) for inviting them, paying them and allowing it to happen in the the first place.
MLD, I watched that video even before you posted (when viewing the others). What are these people thinking?
I tried to think well of T.B. because BD seemed to know him and acquaintances, etc.. I knew better in my heart and let my guard down (wrongfully, on my part). Michael, almost, always has it right…
The elderly gentleman that Michael met has it 100% right, TEACH, TEACH, TEACH the Word of God, because God’s Word is the ONLY thing that will open hearts (and minds).
I try to stay away from these threads (please, forgive me for posting). Why does the PP promote these guys by posting all their videos and bringing even more attention to these guys? We need to bring God’s Word into these conversations more. It makes me sad when we do not bring in God’s Word.
MLD re:Crowder
I will give you this much… in eight minutes of listening I could not find one single sentence that made sense and certainly not one word of Apostolic Gospel…
Will Volunteer to Wack Him So He Can Stay Wacked Forever Dread
Solus,
I am guilty of much but recommending Bentley… I think never did I.
However I did give a modest recommendation to the meeting…because of a few credible testimonies.
Babylon’s Dread,
It was my fault, not yours. I felt badly for you when everyone was jumping on you, back then. You believed good. You wanted it all to be good. Me too. I am at a place where I do not want to be mean or to hurt anyone (or be angry), but there is this but… I am trying to learn that place, how did Michael say it? A time to teach and a time to stand? Dread, I can’t find it… I am trying, but I want it to be glorifying to God. God’s Word has to be included, always. Blessings
p.s. You are very much respected, Babylon’s Dread.
Babs,
I’ve got to admit, I had never heard of him before tonight. How does he get invited to churches?
I’m going to call it a night - but first I am going to go out back and ’smoke a little baby Jesus’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeQEH_jHYig&feature=related
TY Solus,
I am listening to Crowder… Ecstasy of God…I cannot take anymore
Creed of Chalcedon
Therefore, following the holy Fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed down to us.
Dread, you never recommended Bentley. As I recall, Mrs. Dread visited Lakeland and seemed moderately impressed. In the early days of Lakeland, you resisted the idea that TB was a liar and said (with a distinct lack of enthusiasm) that you thought Lakeland was of God. You presented the story of your friend’s spine as possible evidence that God was working through TB. As time passed, you became more and more disappointed in what you saw. You were sincere and transparent throughout.
Babylon’s Dread,
You are only guilty for believing the best in another brother, and hoping and praying his heart is pure. Nothing more. Goodnight.
MLD, I forgot to tell you, God gave me the best day today. Blessings
Vic:
No, never at CCMB. The new assistant Pastor there, Geoff Buck, was an assistant pastor at CCFTL, and my Bible Doctrine instructor. I love the man dearly and wanted to show support.
And Skip:
Jesus is “forever” the God-man. He forever remains in his body of “flesh and bone”.
I’d ditch the Joyner’s and Jones’s of the world VERY quickly.
John Crowder Jehovajuana toke the Ghost and dance?
I am told to eat the meat and spit out the bones…
There is no meat on these bones…
Xenia,
My friend is still healed.
I still believe the mercy of God did many things at Lakeland
And YES I am completely disaffected by it all now.
Dread, I am glad your friend is still healed.
Speaking of off the wall, here me out, as you kind folks always do, and to be honest, many fine Christians have, I think I keep looking at the one spot on the white wall and saying, look this is what I have experienced. While I ignore all the white on the wall, cynicism has a price, it keeps one insulated and out of pain. If I had to sum me up that is it, causing or feeling pain.
So my new idea, as they come, I think the business model can help the Church, it can create alternative avenues of funding so the church can do the work apart from donations. I E in Christian history bishoprics and Monasteries had self sustaining wealth that allowed them to do great works. Of course there were abuses but many were served, I would venture to save, Western Civilization was saved via some of these works. Even the reformation had support from “the fruits of the land”.
My idea develop a sustainable market niche, product I E olive oil or whine (a good history of these products is very revealing) and relics, big money but some lines cant be crossed. I think folks get the picture.
So one of my blizzard ideas, when inflation and possible economic issues arise one hedge market, though eclectic is very lucrative that being antiques, Gold, silver, and coins (collectibles) I have come on several dozen Roman coins, one Alazander the great, and old European coins. I dont see me getting rich but such ideas can help support the ministry.
From my last posted idea a “market” niche is opening a bit, the development of functional cross platform apps for phones and pda’s as well as sustainable energy. Anyways I was just adding some positive to the much gloom I seem to post. God is good and still is God. If we like it or not, I find great comfort in that.
I only have a minute.
This isn’t about theology, this is personal.
The first time I saw Bentley a broken momma brought a beautiful three year old dying child to him as he allegedly represented Jesus and the hope that is in Him.
Bentley treated both as stage props and I’ve hated the man ever since.
I also hated all those who would tolerate such a blasphemy on the name of my Lord and who would not protect a little momma and her baby.
Jesus wept.
That woman and that child haunt me to this very morning and the fact that I can do nothing to change things eats at me like a cancer.
All I can do is to do all I can to make sure that it never happens to another child or another suffering saint.
I can teach doctrine till the day I die, but those images will never leave my mind and that rage will never leave my soul.
Bentley has gotten all the attention, but as usual, his victims have no voice.
It won’t be that way here.
Michael,
Good morning,
Michael wrote, “Bentley has gotten all the attention, but as usual, his victims have no voice.”
This site has always been about standing for God’s Truth, preaching God’s Word and giving the victims a voice and taking a stand.
I just read Dave’s comment to pray for the people who have been talked about here, Michael. Pray for the pastors who have hurt others (here and elsewhere). Please teach us about what God commands on this subject. Dave wrote that it is Biblical to pray for these people.
At 9:49 p.m. I posted a prayer titled: “For A Member of the Family In Danger”, all these people are members of God’s family, even those we don’t particularly care for very much or agree with. What about those who are very wrong in their ministries, practices and teachings?
Michael, Biblically speaking, is the Phoenix Preacher going to pray for all the people who have been discussed here, and those people like T.B.? If so, why? I would like to hear you (and others) teach God’s Word about this subject.
I hope your tooth feels better this morning.
Blessings
The fact of the matter is that none of these scandals are good for the Church.
As much as I wish Todd Bentley would have chosen another god to attach his charade to, he didn’t. He chose the cash cow Jesus and now we all have to pay for it.
Skip…like many here my disdain of your perpetual blathering is assuaged by my assumption that you must be employing sarcasm and tongue in cheek humor.
My assumptions have been proven wrong…and now my disdain is set.
Not for you personally.
I don’t know you and that would be sinful. I disdain your inability to see how damaging it is to do whatever “feels good” or “works for me” attach Jesus’ name to it and call it Christian.
Christianity has parameters…pragmatism does not. Your above posts are espousing pragmatism not Christianity so I would suggest you call it what it is.
Ryan
You spoke well! I have a difficult time trying to understand Skip. He continue to push the boundaries.
I’m wrestling these days with the topic of supernatural healing. Through the years I have seen the hype and fanfare that surrounds some ministers/ministries. You watch or listen to them and you find yourself becoming a bit jaded.
The other day somebody posted a youtube video with two English guys making fun of late night “Christians” that are on the air. It was a shame to see the clips they showed and how obvious money was the main goal, not healing or prosperity. These two unsaved men had more discernment than many Christians.
I have sat in church when the Pastor asked for a show of hands from those who had been healed by God. I found I desperately wanted to raise my hand and I very well may have. It seemed to validate me.
I have prayed with several on their death beds and had the privilege of praying with a few to receive Christ. Each of those I prayed for died, a few the following day.
When I saw clips of TB I thought about the people I know who are desperately ill and have received prayer, yet their illness seems to be headed to it’s natural conclusion. Our nephew just died suddenly from a massive stroke. Our brother-in-law has stage four inoperable cancer, our nephews wife has MS and it is progressing rapidly. People who post on my blog suffer in terrible ways with various forms of mental illness. My wife has severe rheumatoid arthritis. My good friend has Parkinson’s disease. My father died at 60 with a lung disease.
I see Joni Erickson as a quadriplegic and I see a woman who has handled suffering in such a Christ honoring way and has inspired and helped so many, while not being healed. I was told she could never glorify God from a wheel chair.
Christians suffer untold cruelties throughout the world. Little children suffer as no medical aid is available. Many starve.
I pray continually for the sick and haven’t seen any dramatic healings. I confess at times I wonder how often they take place any more, at least in our nation.
I have an illness I would love to be removed by God. But I confess that if that happened I would grieve for those worse off than me who continue in their illness.
I read what Pastor John wrote on another thread as he lives with serious heart problems and his wife is also very sick as well. I would love to see God reach down and touch them both and completely restore their health. I confess that I’m reaching a point where I don’t know if I could pray that prayer with any conviction or real faith my prayer would be answered.
When I pray for the sick the list keeps growing. Wouldn’t it be something if God touched all those you were praying for? Yet I also realize He is soverign and His will is perfect and it will be done.
One time I would like to see someone like Joni or a person with severe cerebral palsy be totally healed on the spot. I’m wondering at times if it happens any more. Faith healers certainly never invite them on stage.
Would it be better to pray for the will and simply ask God for His will to be done? Some say that’s a cop out. Am I just missing the dramatic healings that are real and taking place in our nation? I have a difficult time seeing people suffer and wonder at times why God doesn’t extend His healing hand more often.
ERunner
I have struggled with the same things. I have to fall back on the Lord’s prayer, as you did… Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. As I pray that, I don’t even realize all that I am praying, but the Lord says it is a good prayer and so I pray it.
E - I sympathize with your questions and struggles. As you know the Bible commands us to pray for the sick so we must continue to do that and then leave the results to God.
Ultimately God will heal every believer. Sickness and Death are really the medium that brings about our Eternal Healing.
It’s interesting that we so long to go to heaven but we resist that which brings it to pass.
Eric H, good to know the man is solid and proven. I have many friends there.
Erunner, *I have an illness I would love to be removed by God.* Just for clarity’s sake, you didn’t mean that the way I’m reading it I don’t think
Solus, **At 9:49 p.m. I posted a prayer titled: “For A Member of the Family In Danger”,**
You posted that for me - I was too worn out to form another thot to bring before the Lord - I ‘used’ that prayer and, sadly, will again I’m sure. Oh how I wish our children would learn that the unsaved do not make good life partners (before they marry).
Our town just sent a contingent of Reserves into Iraq (perhaps Afganistan) - so heart wrenching - so I pray/read twice.
I think you were Spirit led last night, thank you for listening to Him
Just to clarify - we all choose what teachers to listen to based on what we believe is scriptural and what we find applicable and life-changing. That is what I do, and I hope that everyone does that.
That is not morally-relativistic pragmatism. I eat what I find enjoyable and nutritious, and I dine spiritually on what I find to be scriptural and life-changing.
He leads us to green pastures, and those pastures include the scripture as well as teaching, etc.
Obviously I have a different view than everyone else here in some specific instances on what constitutes a green pasture.
I do enjoy when we clarify our positions, even when we disagree, and I believe that is edifying. That is always my ultimate goal in participating here.
Believe it or not!
ERunner,
Those are honest thoughts you’re sharing…
I think Joni Tada glorifies God far more than any healer ever has.
Scriptures says when we are weak, He is glorified. Her books have helped literally millions of people with disabilities, chronic illnesses, etc.
I’ve never believed that God heals regularly. I even heard Greg Boyd admit that God doesn’t heal very often (I’m paraphrasing what I heard him say).
Like it or not, His main way of working, I believe, is through means — a nursing home attendant, a doctor, a caring father, a loving mother — each of these people is a “mask of God” for people suffering and sick. Just as God doesn’t supply manna directly from heaven (He could) — there are several people involved in creating, producing, and marketing bagels, for example — in the same way, He works through means with the sick, suffering and hurting.
In my Lutheran church, we pray in each worship service for those in our congregation who are sick, disabled, shut-ins, and in nursing homes. I would think most congregations do so.
God hears the prayers of His people.
Lee Grady on weird teachings on angels that have invaded the church.
Angels, Deception and a Cry for Biblical Truth
Weird teachings about angels have become the norm in some charismatic circles today. It’s time to demand sanity on the subject.
At a growing Brazilian church in Boston, a pastor told his congregation he was having regular conversations with an angel. Weeks later he set a chair on the stage for the heavenly visitor, whom he said was attending Sunday services even though no one could see him. The pastor eventually wrote a book containing messages he had supposedly received from the angel. The man’s teachings became so bizarre that he was eventually removed from his denomination for promoting heresy.
That scenario may seem extreme, but it is one example of widespread emphasis on angels and angelic encounters in the charismatic movement today. In the case of the Brazilian church, the pastor went off the theological deep end and his church became a cult. It remains to be seen what will happen in other sectors of our movement as leaders promote teachings about angels that range from the mildly weird to downright wacky:
* Evangelist Todd Bentley, leader of the Lakeland Revival, stirred up interest in angels when he wrote about Emma, a female angel he said wears a long white dress, floats above the floor and resembles Kathryn Kuhlman.
* A young evangelist who was preaching in Canada last spring held up a jar with a feather in it and told the congregation it belonged to an angel who visits him. …
Read More
Here’s the link to Grady’s blog.
http://fireinmybones.com/
Skip,
All teachers are not of equal value. It’s too bad you don’t realize this. You’re deep in error, at least based on what you’ve posted on here.
Which of these teachers are sound, Skip –
Kenneth Hagin
John MacArthur
Chuck Smith
Kenneth Copeland
David Jeremiah
Raul Ries
Do you see any difference between them?
Scott…to counteract the bad teaching on angels, perhaps we should undertake a sound teaching on them. You may or may not agree with him, but Billy Graham wrote a book on Angels years ago. He noted things in that book that we normally fly over when reading scripture.
Are you up for tackling a scripture based teaching on angels?
‘The man’s teachings became so bizarre that he was eventually removed from his denomination for promoting heresy.’
What about mental illness?
Erunner,
I understand what you are saying, and I think that we can lay this problem at the feet of the Benny Hinns, Todd Bentley’s and others past and present who want to sell us on the idea that God deals with us in His power and glory. This can also be tied in with a post Jessica made yesterday on the Refuge thread about her two lady friends.
In Lutheranism we distinguish between the Theology of Glory and the Theology of the Cross. The Theology of Glory is the religion of everyone else except Christianity - but it has been making great advances into Christianity especially in the 20th & 21st centuries.
The Theology of Glory says that God works in His power and glory and that we can tap into that in a quid pro quo way. If I am good enough, if I do things right etc somehow God is obligated to do something for me. When it doesn’t happen, it is because I have not ‘done my part’.
We see this when we say “Boy, God is really blessing that church - look at their growth. We see it when we say, God is really blessing that person, look how his business has real success. Somehow we think that those people are gaining God’s favor and then we question, “what am I doing wrong?”. This then gets manifest when we say, “if I go to the person who has the blessing, (Benny Hinn, Todd Bentley etc) or if we read the right book to lean ‘how’ we somehow think that it will rub off on us.
The Theology of the Cross says that God works not through power but through means, His hiddenness, and through suffering (including His own suffering).
All that God promised us is a dead carcass on a cross - and somehow He works it out.
This is my biggest problem with the people exposed in that video you mentioned, they make people think that there is a ‘method’ to God’s favor - and yes it was me who posted it. Why can the world see what we are blinded to?
Linnea, I’m not to it right now, maybe you should though
I have a 75 year old acquaintance in PA. He is a precious brother in Christ and is a Minister also.
His wife was diagnosed with brain cancer 3 mos. ago. Unfortunately, he has some residue of the ‘Latter rain” doctrine from his past. One of the tenets of that stream is the ‘Ye shall never die” doctrine.
He has been agonizing over the deterioration of his wife’s condition. I heard that another minister who holds to this ‘never die’ if you have enough faith teaching, spoke at his church a couple of weeks ago.
The man had the audacity to say that as Jesus couldn’t do many miracles in a particular city because of ‘unbelief’ so, the onus was on my friend and the congregation to ‘believe’ his wife back to health. Now my friend and whole church is under an even heavier burden.
This is what damnable heresies eventually do to folks.
“Why can the world see what we are blinded to?”
Because there are not enough teachers preaching the Theology of the Cross.
Scott,
That story is so incredibly sad. But there must be untold who knows how many of these poor folks out there. Instead of ministering to his wife, he probably feels incomplete and judged for his “lack of faith.” Beliefs indeed matter in the real world.
Scott,
I wonder how he explains the fact that even Jesus died?
Lutheran it is sad. MLD, right.
This is what I shared with my friend after I received news of this.
“Dear ******, I want to let you know that I am thinking about you and ******* and also praying from time to time for you all as well. You were really on my heart today and I want to share something with you that I believe the Holy Spirit quickened to me on your behalf.
Job 19, specifically these verses:
23 “Oh that my words were written!
Oh that they were inscribed in a book!
24 Oh that with an iron pen and lead
they were engraved in the rock forever!
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God,
27 whom I shall see for myself,
and my eyes shall behold, and not another.
My heart faints within me!”
Brother, Paul the apostle wrote the following words to the Philippians in Chapter 3 he says the following:
….that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.
******, Paul clearly states the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus is the resurrection. The resurrection is the ultimate prize and high calling. The ultimate prize is not the extension of our physical lives on this earth. Without death, resurrection is ultimately of no value.
Consider how Paul shared that he would much prefer to be absent from his body so that he could be present with the Lord. Your wife is more precious in the Lord’s eyes than even your own eyes. She is His prized possession, and like all of us, her physical body will return to the earth, but her spirit will be forever in the presence of the Lord! Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.
The Lord wants to lift off you the onus of feeling that you are somehow responsible and capable of believing your wife back to health. You are not able to do this. The sovereignty of God superintends even our prayer of faith. You have prayed, others have prayed and now it’s in God’s hands.
Be at peace brother. Not peace that the world gives, but a peace that passes ALL understanding. If we have to understand the ‘what’ and the ‘why’ before we experience God’s peace, then it really won’t be God’s peace.
I’m standing with you, and I appreciate you very much in the Lord,
Scott
Scott…I could pull something together…don’t know how well received it would be
Scott, I think what you wrote is really Christ-honoring and well done!
I pray the Lord uses it to minister to him.
Linnea, you have a beautiful teaching gift. None of the men here will interpret that as you ‘usurping’ our authority, you’re part of the family
Scott…I will pull something together. Looks like our Graham book on Angels is gone (I am the keeper in the family, my husband the tosser…it is a constant struggle to keep books! I keep telling him that I have a mental inventory of all the books and if he gets rid of them, he’s just costing himself more money, because I’ll go buy it again!
….it doesn’t help! )
Luth 10:21, by my somewhat liberal standards I accept all the teachers you list as legitimate, with the caveat that I have never heard Raul Ries.
Of the list, I have most enjoyed Chuck Smith’s teaching and writing, as well as his indirect influence on me through other CC leaders.
Kenneth Copeland has said a few things recently that I have found challenging and thought-provoking. I have one book by Kenneth Hagin Sr. that I enjoyed.
So I embrace them all.
I tend to be more lenient toward those who allegedly “add to” the scripture through purported dreams and supernatural experiences etc. than I am toward those who IMHO “take away” from scripture, such as, maybe, the emergents. They appear to me to be flirting with “taking” away hell and the prohibition (for lack of a better word) on “alternative lifestyle”-type behavior.
Skip…the pragmatism comes when you say “if it works for me then it’s ok.” (not an exact quote)
I choose my pastures and if it blesses me then it must be of the Lord.
Don’t you see how dangerous that is?
I’ll tell you why these teachers are much more damaging that Emergent guys. EC guys don’t purport to have all the answers or that their theories are right. Guys like Copeland, Hagin, Price, Bentley, and others is that they claim to have a higher knowledge much like the Gnostics.
Hey Skip,
I used to like watching Ken Hagin when he spoke of healing and healing being in the atonement, and all you had to do was claim your healing.
I always knew that he was reading the verses correctly, since he would put on his glasses to read them
Skip,
“That is not morally-relativistic pragmatism. I eat what I find enjoyable and nutritious, and I dine spiritually on what I find to be scriptural and life-changing.”
I think I spoke to a Christian Science lady the other day who said the exact same thing.
MLD, Ryan, the scripture is still the rule.
As cantankerous as I may appear here, I am actually still struggling to relate to the hermeneutics of the renewal. Even though it is very appealing to me in many ways, I have trouble getting my arms around the renewal’s use of Scripture.
Rick Joyner is a little different, frankly, however he is portrayed here — the reality is he is pretty hard over on the primacy and importance of the Scripture.
I cannot necessarily say that the other renewal leaders do not feel that, but to the extent I have been able to be exposed to their positions thus far I have had trouble truly finding complete resonance in my own spirit with their handling of the word. They believe it, they act on it, I think it can even be said they live it. So I’m not sure what else I’m looking for. Maybe I would like them to appear that they feel a little bit more limited by it. Which may not even be a good thing, I do not know.
Unfortunately, on the other side of the Civil War, I personally find a deeply entrenched and intransigent modern-day expression of Pharisaism that I simply cannot abide.
So at the moment, I am a man without a country.
I will probably end up joining a renewal church and making the best of it.
If anyone is my “pastor” now, it would have to be Mike Bickle, whom I do not know personally and who is a thousand miles away. I find in him also a clear fidelity to, and explicit emphasis on, the Scripture.
Or, who knows, I may decide to go join John Crowder on his 2009 Drunken Dump Tour.
Skip,
I now understand - you are a man who claims as his pastor a man he has never met 1,000 miles away - I’ll bet that when you take communion it is a moving moment.
Skip,
You also need to watch out which pasture you place yourself in. The devil has his own sheep and pastures (we know this because Jesus said His sheep hear His voice - which mean that there are other sheep)
You had better get on the right side of the fence
“Guys like Copeland, Hagin, Price, Bentley, and others is that they claim to have a higher knowledge much like the Gnostics.”
should have said…
“the problem with guys like…”
God will honor those who sincerely desire to draw near to Him. However I believe that those who have truly been born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be given discernment from Him and come to the conclusion that the Christianity is more than an emotional high.
As Michael alluded to the other day…our faith is defined in the mundane. The daily walk with God, listening to His still small voice realizing the “burning bush” is the exception not the rule.
OK, I just listen to some stuff from Skip’s new absentee pastor Mike Bickle. I don’t know much about him. It looks like he works at IHOP during the day.
Anyway, did ya’ll know that Jesus cannot return if we don’t pray enough?
Lutheran
Ans. Zero
I’d like pancakes with some sausage, please. Hold the pickles. This guy will need to quit his IHOP job, too.
MLD,
Looks like we all need to quit our jobs, abandon our families and Pray Jesus Back! See you in the hills!
Ryan, I have prayed for my wife for years to be healed and will continue to do so. And as Linnea alluded to, “Thy will be done” isn’t a bad place to be in prayer.
Lutheran, Joni is a hero of the faith to me. Every time I have listened to her I know I’ve heard a woman who has walked closely with God and God has chosen to minister to “whole” folks like ourselves.
I see how God works through gifts He has given us via medication, breakthroughs in science, and doctors and nurses who genuinely care.
What is odd to me is how segments of the church look at “tools” God has given us as being pretty much wrong. Some in the faith camp speak of walking in perfect health and say they don’t visit doctors and we should be that way as well. Then in the area of mental illness some in the church literally demonize fine Christian brothers and sisters who seek to help via counseling and medication. So you end up with believers scared to admit they are sick and others who hide the fact they are being treated for depression, as if that disqualifies them from the faith. It seems those the above mindsets seek to protect simply become more damaged. God can’t be pleased with that.
MLD, The Theology of Glory you describe sounds so much like pure performance based legalism. I say that as much of what you mentioned was my approach in approaching God. Ultimately though, I wasn’t willing to say “Your will be done.” I thought I had a better way which proved to be a huge mistake.
I do believe, however, that the Theology of the cross is a source of great power. Those who suffer through illness or another major life event get by only because the power of God is at work in them. It seems so many miss that. I think of Foxe’s book of Martyrs and the mighty power of God in those saints who were able to go to their death without denying the one who purchased them.
You can so often see desperate but misguided people go to famous faith healers looking for a relief from pain or a disease to be cured. Then you watch a Hollywood production and see people separated from their money, instead of men who weep with compassion.
I’m not quite sure if some of these ministers even belong to the body. The Bible talks about false teachers coming in with damnable heresies and making merchandise of the saints. If not any of these guys, who on earth fits the bill?
Thanks for your responses.
ERunner,
I can tell you that if you look past the charismatic/evangelical world, churches see it differently. They believe that God works through ordinary, even mundane means. I’m thinking of Lutherans, as well as millions of mainline Protestants. Catholics, too.
Your observations about people being demonized for using medications, etc. for depression, etc., hits home, too. To me, these poor folks can’t get a break — it’s like sitting out on a tree limb and then someone saws it off –
I was never so happy to go to a Lutheran youth gathering and find that there was a seminar on mental illness. It wasn’t belittled, denied, or anything. In fact, they treated it as very real. I was so glad my kids went.
You could always send your kids to this school. “90 DAY WONDERS”
They are going to turn out kids after 90 Days of intensive training to “do the work of the ministry!” Imagine that! Am I too cynical?
“90 Day Wonders
During World War II there was a group of recruits called the “90 Day Wonders”. These recruits were trained for combat through an intense time of practical as well as instructional training to ready them for wartime. They graduated with four years of training cram-packed into just three months. Immediately they were made officers, right out of boot camp! That’s our goal for this school; to provide a foundation for kingdom living with practical “getting your feet wet” activation in the works of the kingdom. This will be an intense three month training atmosphere that we believe will equip and prepare you to be an effective force for the Kingdom of God. If you are ready to enlist in God’s end time army, this school is for you.”
http://www.vcfalbany.org/ministries/training-for-reigning
MLD, I accept that it is an imperfect situation that my spiritual leader is 900 miles away.
But to be fair, your spiritual leader has been dead for over 450 years.
Skip,
Just goes to show that my dead leader is better than your distant leader - I don’t think anyone will be reading Bickley 500 yrs from now (Is anyone reading him today?)
Actually, my pastor is only 10 min away.
You should try a pastor that you can know, take out for a beer, go to a ballgame with and speak to face to face.
Don’t always be chasing the new and the celeb, they always let you down.
Psalm62,
I’m so glad the prayer was a blessing to you. Have a wonderful day.
Sure is taking a longtime to park the Bentley!
“Don’t always be chasing the new and the celeb, they always let you down.”
That actually sounds wise to me.
I just really have no idea what I need a pastor for right now.
Skip,
I told you why you need a local pastor - to drink beer with and to go to ballgames
Bob, the Bentley’s been parked, we just don’t want to close the garage door yet!
I say we realign the wheels.
Bob, realign the wheels. Come on how about rebuildinng the tranny and replacing the drive train.
Skip…no one should “need” a pastor anymore than we need any of the other gifts. The role of the pastor has been so blown out of proportion by the Church that the pastor becomes the end all of our Christian experience.
This is both the fault of the people, who long to be spoon fed, and the pastor who revels in the power his position brings.
You need a pastor because you need a church…a place where the gifts are functioning properly; so that you can be ministered to and minister to others.
However in your case not having a church, as opposed to attending one that espouses heresy is a much better plan. I agree you’re are much better off with no pastor than one who makes up his theology as he goes along.
Here’s a doozer of a story. Read this over on Endtimesprophetic
Pastor Michael Guglielmucci spun gospel of lies
* Pastor told congregation he had cancer
* Recorded hit song Healer to inspire people
* He’s a fraud - but he’s getting help
HE preached to thousands about his terminal illness and tugged at hearts with a hit song.
The problem is the pastor wasn’t dying at all
Michael Guglielmucci, who inspired hundreds of thousands of young Christians with his terminal cancer “battle”, has been exposed as a fraud.
Guglielmucci, whose parents established Edge Church International, an Assemblies of God church at O’Halloran Hill in Adelaide’s southern suburbs, now is seeking professional help.
Earlier this year, Mr Guglielmucci released a hit song, Healer , which was featured on Sydney church Hillsong’s latest album.
The song debuted at No. 2 on the ARIA charts.
It since has become an anthem of faith for believers, many of whom are suffering their own illness and were praying for a miracle for Mr Guglielmucci, who has claimed for two years to be terminally ill.
In one church performance that has attracted 300,000 hits on YouTube, he performs his hit song with an oxygen tube in his nose.
It appears Mr Guglielmucci, who was a pastor with one of Australia’s biggest youth churches, Planetshakers, may even have deceived his own family.
“This news has come as a great shock to everyone including, it seems, his own wife and family,” Hillsong general manager George Aghajanian said in an email to his congregation yesterday….
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24216087-5006787,00.html
Scott,
This kind of stuff only happens in churches and with congregations who ignore the Bible. Oh, they may quote verses, but always ripped from their context.
Do you remember the time that Jesus healed the blind man and told him to go preach about it? Remember when Jesus healed the man born lame and told him to go write a best selling song about it?
Remember when Jesus spoke on the mount and told the masses to look for signs and wonders and to give praise and large offerings to those who were leading them?
You don’t remember that? Heretic!
This whole renewal/Word of Faith stuff does the exact same thing. They have missed the meaning and purpose of Scripture all together. They pluck supportive verses out of context to support a position that not only has no place in Christianity, but may even be against what the scriptures spoke about.
So, the sheep (and I really question if these people have ever been Born Again), charge off in a manner that just makes mockery of the work of Jesus.
Other than that, I have no opinion about this guy.
MLD~ That’s what I like about you, you very seldom have an opinion about anything
I would ask though, why in the heck would this Guy feel that was even necessary? Why not just write the song? LOL!
My first response in reading this article was “thank God he does not really have that damnable disease, I loath Cancer”.
Guglielmucci, whose parents established Edge Church International, an Assemblies of God church at O’Halloran Hill in Adelaide’s southern suburbs, now is seeking professional help.
Well, that’s good news, I guess.
I was thinking today that the extreme charismatic world — but not only them — is like a parallel universe — especially with this healing stuff. There must not be a lot of truth tellers in Guglei’s
circles in Australia.
“Sure is taking a longtime to park the Bentley!
Bob, as long as there’s gas in the tank, that thing will never get parked around here
Michael said he’s ‘parking’ the Bentley. Not ‘parked’ the Bentley. Big difference
Another thing about this Australian pastor who lied to everybody –
I agree with what Michael Spencer (The Internet Monk, Boar’s
Head Tavern) said about it:
“Two words:
Mike Warnke.
Look it up. This is hardly the first time.
Evangelicals are so desperate to be famous, lying is a small price to pay.”
http://burnsidewriterscollective.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-believe-you-are-my-healer.html
Skip,
Being in a local church has nothing to do with needing a pastor. It has to do with not being an amputated member of the body.
Those things are dead.
Don’t bother answering I am sure you have that all figured out.
I play this game with my students when we are around town, we see different expensive cars and I convert the price of the car into how many wheel chair vans we could get. Across the street from my house is this place that has very high end lofts, running between one and two million. I live in a mobile home park. We see lotuses, Porches, Lamborghini, mint Shelby’s, a few Bentley’s, and Aston Martin Bulldog, Lots of Vets, Classic Harlie’s, and the want a be kit cars. Bentley’s could pay for an entire house, not around here but other parts of the country. OK I confess I might keep the Shelby.
The thought came to me this morning about Michael Guglielmucci -”what was his dad doing for the “ministry”as this young man was growing up? Was he there for his son?”
A personal story about our own son (at the time 6 years of age)- he was dragged into the bushes at the local park not far from our home. The young man who tried to molest him was a 14 year old son of a Baptist counselor here in Australia. Rather than go to the police my husband rang the father, met with him, prayed with him. The father realised how he had neglected his own son, because he was always out and about for others.
Today our son is a youth pastor himself, and knows Michael Guglielmucci very well and this will break his heart.
I watched the video though there is a massive delete going on, online. I dont blame them for that. My heart broke, it should not but it did, at times I truly make myself sick, I know it should be water off a ducks back. Cancer ate my sister alive, I prayed, almost always alone, I think I brought it up once in a faith community on line, never in real life. She fought so hard, she had a remission one time and left this message on my answering machine going on about how I helped her so much, I was the reason she was still alive, I did this I did that I always forgave her. I did not even wait until the end, I deleted it, I actually almost tore the phone out of the wall, being so conditioned that a Christian should never ever ever ever no matter what ever want, need, seek, accept, praise of any kind.
She died, alone, and I felt horrible. I can say I still have not cried nor grieved, I have learned to avoid and suppress that type of emotionalism.
One young man, tall, athletic, went to Junior College, lived with his grandma. He was walking one day and had a seizure which landed him in the Developmental center. I got to work with him towards the end, so bad were the spasms he would dig holes in the palms of his hands, his autonomic system began to fail so his temperature would rise 105 then down to 90 or less. I built switches, where a person could grasp and cause a computer to say things, a commodore but to be honest this other employee did most of the work, a great God fearing man. My boss, who saved my life with his trust also deserves alot of Credit, he may not have had the creeds down but he had the walk.
After years of daily, no secondly horrid pain, reflexive massive contracters I mean popping bones almost out of the skin. I admit to my complete shame, I brought this up at church, often for prayer because I did not know what to do with it, another character flaw and something I am also completely ashamed of. My last time seeing this young man he finally died, I touched the black bag as the coroner was wheeling him out of the old elevator. His life had meaning, at least to me and others. I know his life had meaning to God. I will admit and confess at times when I told these stories, and it was not often, I actually kept records of how much I talked, timed myself etc to avoid saying to much or appearing to actually be wanting attention etc. So maybe once every other month, two to three minutes. But the response, I wont go into here.
I have pored out much more about my heart and self here and on maybe one other blog then I ever had in real life. I would not do that.
I am glad this man is not sick, I dont know if that makes me weak. I never really considered myself much of a Christian, I slither near the very shallow end of the pool. This has been such a hard week, I know, outside of apologetic reasons, we should not be effected by this stuff. Sorry for all my drivel. God bless it has helped me so for that I am deeply grateful. But most of all I am grateful to God for allowing something like me to have the honor to be around such people as the young man I spoke of.
Hi brian!
park the Bentley, ride a Harley
Scott, you can take over parking the Bentley.
I’ll await Michael’s scholarly treatise on how this John Crowder guy blends the emerging and word/faith churches and pot smoking into one unique blend of…
LOL Cent
I was just thinking how wonderful life is and how Christ makes all the colors so much brighter. The fog is lifting and we all will see face to face what we view through a mirror darkly. We will know Him as he Knows us. Have a good night all. Thanks for giving me a save place to think.
http://www.canadianchristianity.com/nationalupdates/080821lakeland.html
OK, now that the outpouring has been declared over, I think it is to evaluate the fruit. What affect does such an event have on the outpourings recipients?
1.) Is crime lower in the area?
2.) Are the ‘Ladies of the Night’ and their ‘Clients’ off the streets?
3.) Are the bars closed down and to porn shops out of business?
4.) Are the homeless off the streets and provided housing?
5.) Are the hungry fed?
6.) Are the widows and orphans cared for?
7.) Fill in other things …
or, did the 400,000 people just consume the blessings upon themselves like selfish, gluttonous pigs?
Nad to go along with Michael’s last link, this pic I grabbed off the freshfire website sort of tells it all
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1098/cancelledmiraclesse7.jpg
Well, I have no idea why I typed ‘Nad’ instead of ‘And’. Howver, you know what I mean
Statement from Dutch Sheets on Bentley.
“As far as the heresy hunters and revival police—not those who raised legitimate questions about Lakeland, but the attack dogs who make their living and build their ministries criticizing everyone else—I lost respect for them long ago and couldn’t care less what they think”
Well, that sorta sets the tone, don’t ya think?
http://www.dutchsheets.org/images/images_A2521/A_Statement_and_Appeal_Regarding_Lakeland.pdf
MLD I use to bring up those kinds of marks, I wont go into the response. I was thinking on these two situations very hard. Mr. Bentley and that Young Pastor in Australia seem to have brought to light some issues with in the evangelical / over all church in general. One thing that could happen in the evangelical church that would be truly awesome is to listen to the voices of the laity. That cant happen, and it will not, gravity will fail before that does. But it would be a truly empowering concept.
I never saw the video of the oxygen take but if I had I think my first thought would have been um all the many students I have worked with who had to wear those things could have never done that. I mean standing was awfully hard, the wheezing grasping for every breath, the blue finger tips, lips the hollow eyes of desperation, like a drowning person you cant save. Granted that’s emotionalistic blather but that is what I would have thought.
I feel for that kid, the pressure to produce, perform, one up mensship is so strong. If one is to be loved one must perform. God literally loathes with an eternal hatred one that cant suck it up. Dont believe me, just listen to the under pinning of the Modern Jesus Industry. This may sound strange but it is so true, we are told to need Jesus, but the very second we do actually need Him we have failed. As good Christians we should not need anything, ever no matter what. If someone wants to learn how these things can happen that is the crux.
I scratch my head and truly “feel” for Bentley, that young preacher, and all the people involved, I wish I could just wrap my arms around them, let them cry and say it will be alright. Granted that makes me a complete jack ass and basically stupid, but it is how I think. Rather pathetic when one really looks at it. God bless all I wish better days to come. Because I know they will. This to will pass and the Glory will always be found in Him. Alone.