More links from late last week I've found….
iMonk tells how hanging out with Jesus is affecting his Christian faith. He also comments on Frank Viola (the home church guy, not the former Twins pitcher).
A most interesting missions opportunity involving iPods and African pastors.
Scot McKnight on Stuart Briscoe.
Josh Harris posted some of Tim Keller's sermon notes (I looked at them and they're typed in shorthand, but perhaps they will be useful and helpful to you).
Trevin Wax interviews John D'Elia about the legacy of George Eldon Ladd.
John Hendryx announces a new online bookstore, ReformedBooks.net
Perry Noble's seven qualities a leader must have, part 1 and part 2.
Monergism's improved mp3 library.
Chad Lewis on the "Our Father" part of the Lord's Prayer.
Mark Driscoll on the studying Christian.
How about Sarah Palin, y’all?
BrianD, how’s WW.
BrianD,
Thank you for the link on Ladd.
I really want to read this as the interview already informed me of things I did not know.
Thank you very much…
James T
Palin? You know I want so badly to believe she is the real deal, but in truth I think she is just another person bucking for power and position. I love the story, mother of five, prolifer who walks the walk. She was wonderful tonight…a Pit Bull with lipstick…
I hope the press does not rip her to pieces. I hope her family holds together in the rigors of political life. I hope her children get a pass from all the press pressing in. I hope her pregnant daughter does the right things…even if it that means being single.
But yes… I am jaded by politics and preaching… not much of is is credible. Not much of it moves me.
But Jesus does…always…always… always…
Lord these political people are not our hopes, they are not our dreams, they are just friends trying to find a way for us all.
Your Cross alone O Lord, shows us the way. Please do not let your children be seduced again into pale political jockeying. Deliver us… from evil, wherever it is found.
Ok enough
Dread to Bed
James T,
Sarah Palin? Is she going to have TB as a advisor?
I watched her, Rudy, Milt and Huckabee. I liked Huckabee a lot — great speaker and respectful toward the opposition.
The other 3? More of the same. These people are stuck in about 1986.
As an independent, I don’t see how this bunch will appeal to the noncommitted.
Sanctimonious, rude and stereotyping toward the opposition. That’s how I’d typify them. Rudy was especially bad.
I’m sure they gave red meat to the choir…problem is, the choir isn’t big enough to win this election.
requesting prayer; personal matter
Brian,
Prayers ascending.
Praying here as well BrianD.
Palin? The “pit bull with lipstick” was a strange choice of words to me. The pits I’ve known have been vicious to other animals, or vicious to other people, or just lovers to all. It depends on who is breeding them. Alot of people don’t like pit bulls because it’s hard to trust you’ll be safe around them unless you know them well that they are the loveing type. As I listened to hopefully like her, I found her to be a bit too much on the “attacking” side for my likeing. Healthcare is a big issue for me and I did not hear it addressed? There are too many of us that cannot afford health insurance or are underinsured, and a tax credit will not help. We’ll see - I’m still undecided—-
Sue,
I agree. The speakers spent 95% of their time talking about terrorism and the national scene. It’s as if what’s going on day to day was just ignored.
I also heard Palin say to “special needs” families that if she gets elected, they’ll have an “advocate in the White House.”
Too bad that advocacy won’t translate into any healthcare help — just rhetoric.
I meant “international” scene.
Dread, I suspect that in spite of your critique, you plan on voting in November, right?
Of course, Politicians aren’t our hopes and our dreams. The political process matters though. We’ve been blessed with the opportunity to at least vote (or not) and to make a difference.
Sarah Palin’s speech was tremendous. Her stage presence is amazing, and her beauty, well, she’s in a league all of her own. Rhetoric, style, looks & delivery are some of the main the components of any Politician. Just ask Obama.
This blog seems to have made a turn recently. I don’t know if it was the Bentley stuff or the ODM folks, but a change has been made.
Some how we have now turned away from the call and turned inward, much like what happens at even the best churches when the “building program” or the “outreach” is complete.
I now see attacks or the musings of attacks on Palin, (”Palin? You know I want so badly to believe she is the real deal, but in truth I think she is just another person bucking for power and position.”) and division according to denominational lines when the original intent was the calling for reform in Calvary Chapel government and any ministry with similar issues.
Along this road there has often been personal attacks, name calling, questionable issues, but in the midst of all of it good discussion of scripture.
While history and tradition always play a role in the understanding of where doctrine and theology rest today, the finale arbitrator is and always has been the word of God, our heritage in scripture, the Bible.
If this blog is to separate into camps which say things like, Calvin says, the EO holds, our litergy defines, Chuck said or John Courson’s commentary explains, then we are headed towards another gospel(s) and have lost our first love. Yes I always respect all these men and belief systems, often finding enlightenment in the work which has been revealed through them. In the end however reliance on them alone without the scrutiny of scripture is pure folly.
So let us not divide over men but find unity in the Jesus revealed in the bible. Let us make our choices for political office based upon a conscience trained and disciplined through and by His word. Let us debate the things of God in this world, not based upon the desires of our flesh but of the pure message left to us. Let us sharpen our understanding of God’s grace and Mercy in Jesus Christ through heated but merciful debate of His word.
Finally let our love be revealed to each other; not by taking our ball and ending the game but by sacrificing ourselves for those men and women in whom God call “beloved.”
Drew,
I agree with many of your observations. Well put, by the way.
But I think it’s unrealistic to think that people are going to ignore their own church, etc. here. Not sure why you’d think that. Another gospel? No. Differences, yes.
I think it’s inevitable that there will be differences of opinion. As the French say, “Vive le difference” or something like that. As long as we’re learning from each other, I don’t see the big deal.
I thought Sarah hit a “4 bagger” last night. We got a chance to meet her family, learn what she values, and some of the “barracuda” we’ve herd about
Best line of the night was ““America needs more energy; our opponent is against producing it. Victory in Iraq is finally in sight, and he wants to forfeit. Terrorist states are seeking nuclear weapons without delay; he wants to meet them without preconditions,” she said. “Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America, and he’s worried that someone won’t read them their rights.”
Mr. Lutheran, your assertion that the speakers at the RNC last night spent 95% of their time talking about terrorism and the international scene, is hyperbole and a distortion of the facts. You really should work on that.
By the way, in case you all forgot, here’s the transcript of Joe Biden’s acceptance speech last week. What was so substantive about his speech in comparison to what Palin had to say last night?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94048033
Lutheran:
“I think it’s inevitable that there will be differences of opinion. As the French say, “Vive le difference” or something like that. As long as we’re learning from each other, I don’t see the big deal.”
Not the point.
If you understand the “break in fellowship” as a Lutheran then you will understand what I am talking about.
I wonder if we don’t associate “unity” with the absence of differences.To me differences (as Lut says) are a reality. It’s not the absence of differences theologically or one’s out look that makes this a Christian or loving site but how we deal with them when (not “if”) the arise.
“Viva le Differance” Amen (or how ever the French say it)
And here is the transcript of Sarah Palin’s speech last night.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94258995
healthcare health insurance…we need to keep the rhetoric straight if we’re going to use it.
Every American has access to healthcare if they’re bleeding & walk into an emergency room. A great percentage of Americans do not have health insurance in order to pay for it.
sorry…my symbols didn’t show up. It should have been “healthcare does not equal health insurance”
Steve:
Reread what I wrote and you will find differences aren’t the issue and neither is heated debate.
By the way the purpose of the DNC and the RNC is not substantive speeches but hyperbole and hype. It’s an Amway “get ‘em fired up” thing.
Drew
I did re read it…so if Lute and I are wrong in our conclusions is it because we read it wrong or the writing (serious question not meant to be an attack on you personally :-))
Can I ask an honest question? Not trying to stir things, but I’m just wondering as I sit here with my cup of coffee. When we get into the debates on here, and I think some of them are really good, what is your motivation? Is it to convince the other person of your view, to test your own views, to as MLD puts forward to be able to think through our faith in a “safe” place before we might be confronted by questioning in the world?
I think one of the things Drew is saying is not to be so adament in camping on the thinking of one denomination or man, but to be willing to test all things by Scripture. I know that I have areas in my theology that are probably wrong. I know I have areas I need to test and learn, and when I read the debates I comee with the hope that the Spirit will prick my heart in areas I am in fault.
Just throwing that out there.
Sarah -
I think it’s a bit of all depending on the debate in question. I think most folks are entrenched in their positions (including myself) - but discussion/debate is still fruitful because it:
(1) Helps us understand other points of view better
(2) Helps us think through our own side…and forces us to confront the weaker points that we may not normally consider.
FYI,
No, you should work on baseless accusations. I heard very little about domestic affairs, other than the usual “lower taxes, Dems are evil”
mantra.
Compared to the Dem Convention, these folks were much nastier and vitrolic.
I guess that’s part of what I’m asking Tim…can we ever get to a point where we can really honestly listen to the other side without instantly thinking of our responses. To hear the heart of the other side as well as the argument.
I think if we can get there, that is some of the Spirit. Not that we have to be weak, but if we can set egos aside. And egos are part of being human. As MLD said, we believe what we do because we think we are right; we wouldn’t believe and suggest things if we thought we were wrong. I assume I have error simply because I am young and have a lot to learn!
I actually think the debates of late here have been pretty good overall. It’s okay to have some heat, as long as we care for one another and are not intending to harm the other. If our goal is to come closer to the Truth of Scripture through our debate, and to see our brothers and sisters do the same, this will remain a place of healing and growth.
Sorry, Drew, but I’m not following what you mean by “break in fellowship.” Not trying to be contentious, but to understand.
Lutheran -
“Nasty” might be in the eyes of the beholder. The Dem convention was just as bad, in my opinion.
It probably has more to do with whom we’re predisposed to agree with.
It would be interesting to know if all of the Amillennialists here are left and liberal politically and all of the Premillennialists are right and conservative politically. My guess is that Michael might again align himself with the Amillennialists though. But, if this were the general case then we could all just argue over politics instead of theology, or just use political terms for discussing Bible exegesis. I’m not trying to pick a fight just making some silly remarks that will probably equally offend everyone. But, hey since we haven’t had any good theological debates in a while you have to start somewhere! Politics and religion, your just not supposed to discuss either if you want to get along with people. Now, I’ll duck and run.
I thought what Diane (Xenia) did here yesterday set this place back a couple of years.
I’m pretty sick to my stomach over it too be honest.
Michael has afforded her and her EO brethren MUCH grace and latitude in his forum.
For her to call Calvinism the “worst of all Protestant heresies” in light of the many aberrant doctrines and practices in the EO Church is the height of hypocrisy, especially in light of the pass she has been given here.
For her to expose what has really been in her heart all along in that fashion, causes me to wonder what her motives have been all along, to pick up her ball and go home, only underscores my suspicions.
I dunno Scott. I think Xenia was simply trying to demonstrate her love for the brethren by not engaging in fights with them.
Truth be told, most of us likely feel that much within EO is aberrant & possibly heretical. I’m not sure we can cast suspicion on Xenia’s motives without casting suspicion on our own.
For my part, I just want to take Xenia at her word.
Scott, I agree. It made me terribly sad. And I think there will always be those who cannot see any truth in another person’s theology. We need to be open to critique, and Michael is. We need to offer our critique with humility knowing that we are all inadequate in our complete understanding of God.
I don’t know…I’m not so eager to be right as I used to be. I’m more eager to understand the heart behind the argument, and the journey is the foundation to the theology.
Tim,
You’re correct about access to health care in an emergency.
You left out the part about being forced into bankruptcy after you get out.
I have no idea how I will recover from getting sick earlier this year.
Sorry…should be the *journey that is the foundation to the theology*
Sounds sappy on my second cup of coffee! You all will have to extend me some grace this morning!
Scott,
I’m more inclined to agree with Tim.
I can understand why you’re hurt. But I think we need to take her at her word, too.
I agree with you that we have been quite gracious to the EOs here, I believe.
I love theology and theological debate.
My goal here has been to have those debates while focusing on the unity we do have in Christ.
Xenia and I were friends before I ever started the blog, we remain friends today as far as I know.
My world is too full of broken people and broken lives right now for me to have much stomach for arguing…my folks need to be able to see a cross, not my library of doctrinal tomes.
What’s the old proverb? “Apples of gold in a setting of silver, so is a word rightly spoken.” Something like that.
If one wants to disagree and chooses to take a break or even fade off into the sunset, that’s their prerogative.
However, to make a statement like that about Calvinism, especially in light of how anyone who’s been here for any length of time knows what Michael’s convictions are on election.
Michael’s view on election have by his own admission SAVED HIS LIFE. For someone to call him a ‘heretic’ in light of that, is hard for me to take.
Lutheran:
The term “break in fellowship” is a term used by synods to indicate a difference in the understanding of doctrinal issues is so great no communication or dialog can continue.
Officially the Missouri, Wisconsin synods have “broken Fellowship” with each other and my understanding is neither fellowship with the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
When a synod breaks fellowship they no longer walk together.
And with that, I’ll fade off into the beauty of another Southern Oregon day! Blessings on all, including Diane!
Drew,
OK, thanks. I should have gotten it.
Michael,
What a beautiful example you have set.
If my sense is correct, the days of John Paul II are over. As I monitor EWTN, they are using much ‘firmer’ terms than erring brethern to describe those believers outside of their fold. They are calling for all to come ‘home’ with the implication that to not do so is heretical. Perhaps the EOs are teaching their flocks to take the same hard line stand? Do they think that it is the Protestant and other hardline religious mindset that is causing all the turmoil in the world today? I suspect they do.
But, ever been to Yellowstone and watched the mudpots? Over my lifetime it seems that these bubbles keep forming that look like trends and then bloop they go away and another one forms…
It’s hard to focus on Christ when you try to figure out what the world is up to…
Michael,
I know of some who were tarred and feathered by the church when they declared BK. One guy was forced to confess it publically to his church, as if it was some type of sin. Guess the pastor there never read much of the Old Testament, particularly the Year of Jubilee, although he was given this advise from some big names in worship (it was the 90’s). It wasn’t a CC, BTW.
They must have thought this was Integrity………..
In my friends case, I think it was a manipulation tactic for aimed at several fronts; from the pastor controlling his worship leader to trying to give the congregation a “cause” to “rally around. No wonder the church folded.
Be encouraged, Michael. Bless God today.
Everyone I have ever known who is a member of the Orthodox Church is a caring, intelligent person, who I accept as a brother or sister in Christ. But the fellowship is ultimately broken, each time, when their true attitude toward me comes out. I can accept them, but they will never accept me, once they see that their evangelizing of me isn’t going to pay off with me being chrismated into their church. They are taught that all true Christians are members of the Orthodox Church, and that there is no salvation outside the EO church. Fellowship, therefore, will always be one-sided. If you don’t understand that, you will either convert to Orthodoxy, or you will be repeatedly disappointed by our Orthodox brothers and sisters. No non-Christian run of the mill heathen would ever be drawn to Orthodoxy. If they are to save this dying church it will have to be by converting disgruntled and hurting Christians. Many of you are their target audience. So was Diane before they got to her. So was Jacob Lee. So was Doug Gilliland. They pick off the weak and wounded sheep from the edges of the flock. That is just the way it is, and to deny that is naive, and will set you up for future hurt.
Speaking of Xenia (is that pronounced Zeeenya?), she’s on the pastors and teachers prayer list and will stay there, eh? BTW is Dusty on that list by another handle? I copied and printed a while back…don’t know if it’s still accessible here?
I’m not trying to expand that list into more catagories…My thinking is that Dusty should be on the list as she gives so much to prayer and this web-site. She needs the cover of our daily prayers, too.
I don’t know if EO’s are saved……….
From the glossary of The Orthodox Study Bible, New Testament and Psalms, p. 807
“One is saved by faith through grace. However, saving faith is more than mere belief. It must be a living faith manifested by works of righteousness, whereby we cooperate with God to do His will. We receive the grace of God for salvation through participation in the sacramental life of the Church.”
I question the biblcal validity of this statement.
Centorian, saved by faith thru grace…a living faith shows works of righteousness… participation in the sacraments provides this salvation grace…? Have I got that right?
Centy,
I do bless God today.
I am blessed beyond measure and that blessing has come from the Body of Christ as represented here.
My heart is full with what God has given me…it also breaks for those who don’t have or understand the sustaining power of grace.
God really is good, even when times are hard.
Dave,
I was under the impression that EOs’ attitude toward nonEO believers is like the Catholics — that they consider nonEO Christians to be in the faith, but not the “fullness of the faith.” I asked that of Jacob Lee on here at one point, and he answered it rather ambiguously.
I’m kind of shocked. Thank you for sharing.
Centy,
That doctrinal statement is indeed what separates us…I also believe it to be another Gospel.
Individuals may be saved despite that, as in Catholicism, but the statement itself is unbiblical.
Hola, amigos y amigas (mi espanol es limito - so habla ingles to me)
I’ll start from the top.
James, WW? I suppose Wonder Woman is doing fine
Seriously…Weight Watchers is working very well for me. I went to the doctor today and found that I’m eight pounds lighter than I thought I was (apparently the scale at work isn’t calibrated properly).
Michael, a pleasure to give you the link on Ladd. He has interested me ever since I discovered his philosophy of the kingdom of God as “now and not yet” and that Wimber and Chuck Jr. counted him as an influence.
Lutherans have a saying that I think is true, biblically…
We’re saved by faith alone…
But faith is never alone.
Michael -
“You’re correct about access to health care in an emergency.
You left out the part about being forced into bankruptcy after you get out.”
No…I mentioned that as well. Here’s what I originally said:
“Every American has access to healthcare if they’re bleeding & walk into an emergency room. A great percentage of Americans do not have health insurance in order to pay for it.”
As to the other comments, pay attention to what Drew said. Let’s love one another ano not divide, especially over something so stupid as politics.
JimB, Michael is pretrib, premillenial.
Xenia had stated recently when asked that she didn’t believe that the EO people were the only ones who were saved and that she didn’t know any EO people who believed that way…
I don’t for a second think Xenia had any underlying motives or negative feelings against the people here.
‘A great percentage of Americans do not have health insurance in order to pay for it.”
Tim,
Can you explain what you mean?
Thanks!
BrianD,
That is going to be a special read, so I really appreciate your work.
I would not have known of it otherwise.
Psalm,
Dusty is on the list under “Dave Rolph”
BrianD,
Michael is pre-Wrath pre-mill but my little inuendo was just in fun because during our numerous debates about eschatology he often sided with the Amill perspectives and points. Nothing intended only fun.
Psalm62,
from what I have reading of Ortho writngs, you have it correct…..
JimB,
Lut,
I understood Tim….. that’s how they talk it Texas lol!
I’ll say this once again for the sake of clarity.
I’m very apolitical.
There is no choice for a leader that I can affirm, so I will not vote for a presidential candidate.
My concerns are with people and my calling is spiritual.
I understand that to be a unpopular position, but there is only so much time in the day and only so many places to spend ones life.
If others feel called to political issues that is fine…I’m not and I have a deep distaste for how Christians as a whole have engaged in the process.
JimB,
“It would be interesting to know if all of the Amillennialists here are left and liberal politically and all of the Premillennialists are right and conservative politically.”
As an Amillenialist I don’t think that it enters into the question. I personally am a conservative, but I speak out loudly against what the Republican Party is doing right now (and for quite a while.) I think that they have forgotten what being a conservative means - look today at record budgets, spending and regulations. Repubs have controled congress 1995-2006 and the White House for the past 8 yrs.
But that hasn’t been my focus this past week here on the blog. My beef is that they think (and rightfully so), that they can manipulate the Christian Right.
Now, if I were to put it in your terms I would say that because “premillenialist” belong almost exclusively to evangelical churches, they aren’t “allowed to be liberals” - since as the ODMers would accuse, that will bring on the great apostacy and the anti christ.
Amillenialist (IMHO) are more free to think their way through since we have no eschatological attachment to their politics. Our motivation is more vocational (love and serve your neighbor) and not how to stop the anti christ from getting into office
. When I was in evangelical churches, if you were a democrat or voiced a positive opinion about a democrat candidate you were looked at funny.
At least that’s the way
At least that’s the way - At least that’s the way I see it.
Just took time to read Linkathon 1. It was a reminder of what my life was like 20 years ago when debate was fun. Just a simple question. If the greatest theological minds of the past 500 years could not agree, who are we to think we might? I have had the old line “iron sharpens iron” spoken to me on numerous occasions. Sometime we need to be secure (can I use that word?) enough with our own understanding of what is or isn’t essential Christian doctrine. Calvin was a great theologian, and I agree that he has been misrepresented. But in reality, someday, we might have to admit we were wrong. I’m prepared for that.
Lutheran:
I am open to scripture, discussion, debate and just about anything doctrinal but when comes to debating the rightness of a church or their particular positions I will stop because I find it fruitless.
All denominations have their way of doing things, but salvation through faith has existed since the creation of man. Salvation is never through the church organization or an agreement to what they hold as truths.
So you will never hear me say or write that salvation rests membership of any church other than simple pure faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. You will hear me say that I believe the wrappings of church and some of the mysticism associated with their doctrine and practices can make it difficult to see God’s grace and mercy in Jesus Christ.
By the way I am referring to churches which profess to be Christian (I will draw the line Mormons and JW are not included here, and while they have a Jesus I contend he is not the Jesus of scripture).
Bob,
“If the greatest theological minds of the past 500 years could not agree, ”
I find that they do agree with me
To add to my previous post, my first introduction to theology was back in 1964 at Biola. I had only been a Christian for a year and all that I knew was that I loved Jesus and He loved me. I sat in the classroom of some great prof’s (Dave Rolph knows who they were). I ate it up! I ended up in a denomination of the Arminian persuasion, and the battle was on!
I’m waiting for Dobson to tell me how to vote. If he tells me to stay home, then Election Day I’ll get dressed, head down to the polls and vote Daffy Duck as my write-in candidate for President
Drew,
Now you have me curious. Do you know of a Protestant denomination that questions the salvation of another Protestant just because of their denominational affiliation?
MLD
You know I’m still learning!
I’m thankful that I have a right to vote. Millions of Soldiers bravely protect our right to do so, or, if one chooses, not to vote.
What I won’t do is belittle or make a mockery out of that right. Too many have paid the ultimate sacrifice for my right to do so.
Drew
I am open to scripture, discussion, debate and just about anything doctrinal but when comes to debating the rightness of a church or their particular positions I will stop because I find it fruitless
Amen! unless it’s blatantly incorrect doctrine
I’m not making a mockery out of the right to vote. I’m mocking the tendency of some Christian leaders to pontificate from on high to the people who they should vote for and what the talking points are in choosing that particular candidate.
I take my right to vote seriously, and I look at ALL the issues - not just the ones the media or the religious right tell me to look at - and I try to discern the leading of God before I place my vote.
Besides, if I vote for Daffy Duck, Obama or anyone as a protest against Dobson, I’ve totally lost focus on what my vote really stands for.
So, Scott, thanks for the reminder on what our armed forces have done, and do, to give us that freedom to vote.
To not waste it on a protest vote to make somebody mad. To not waste it by going with what somebody says, because “they’ve done the work for us in knowing if this candidate is a Christian or not, and I trust what they say”. To not waste it by voting for someone when your conscience compels you to not vote for any of the candidates.
Lutheran -
Sorry to take so long to respond.
What I mean is that there is a large percentage of Americans (exactly how large, I don’t know) that because of various situations cannot afford to carry health insurance for themselves or their families. Many are owners or employees of small businesses for whom monthly insurance premiums exceed at least one full paycheck. Others have one income earner in the house & premiums are terribly high for the other members of their family.
(To give an example, if I were to put my wife & child on my policy through work, I’d be paying over $800 a month in premiums for them. Thus they have a separate policy through another company that “only” costs us almost $500.)
Thus like Michael said - they can get their life preserved in a hospital, but they are in debt the rest of their lives.
My whole point was to clarify the difference between “health care” and “health insurance.” To listen to various politicians, you’d think that people are standing in lines at hospitals waiting for treatment that they’ll never receive. What these same politicians fail to realize is that this is exactly the result of socialized medicine.
BrianD
A vote for Daffy is a vote for Obama!
BrianD, you’re so patient - I appreciate it (I’d printed the list when it was 779 names and my copy didn’t have her there yet)
ummm…drop one of those 7s…
I’m going to throw my two cents in on health insurance for what’s it worth. I used to sell life and health insurance. I found the majority of people would rather have a larger house, a new car, a boat, a luxury vacation, etc.; anything except paying premiums to protect yourself and/or your family. They would rather roll the dice and believe it always happens to someone else.
When buying a health insurance policy, I always suggest one with a HIGH deductible if you are in good general health. This way if something really bad happened you at least have a stop loss. By stop loss I mean you know what your max out of pocket would be. Why have a $500 deductible if you’re not currently spending that much out of pocket.
The other thing which would help bring down the cost of health is if people would see their family physician or use walk in clinics instead of our emergency rooms. ER’s should be used for emergencies only; not as a replacement. If people would do this, it would go a long way in helping to bring down all of our health cost.
Thanks, Tim!
Did no read the whole post but I take Xenia at her word.
She is a strong lady with a soft heart.
It has been awhile since I have seen her face to face; but I have known her children and reflect well on Xenai and her hubby also.
She indicated she felt called to minister to her family while also starting to teach history at a private high school. She recognized her opinions and how they might spill over onto the PP’s discussions in a damaging way.
She said she would be back in awhile and she will. She has been a person of her word before.
my two cents if that helps, gotta go and teach a study.
Back to work today, PTL!
Don’t know where to post this, but I just listened to McCain. I was moved to tears by his sincerity and passion. I might need to vote after all!
Bob, I agree.
McCain spoke with dignity and humility.
Sarah is moving me from undecided toward McCain. Not only can she field dress a moose she did a pretty good job of gutting a couple of donkeys!
As to Xenia’s comment,
How many times here has the Catholic church been damned as full of heresy and ushering in the Anti-Christ? “The road to Rome” is used as an insult, almost as damning as being Emergent.
Not defending anything, Diane can handle herself quite qell. Just seems a little off, when we have no problem damning others in the family for thier Abherent views, we are shocked when others in the family damn us.
I know Michael isnt doing that, but others have a sense of indignance I have not seen displayed when the Pope, or Catholics in general are decried as heretics.
Obviously from my post yesterday, I hold a literal view on salvation. The requirements are simple, at least as I read scripture. Others seem to view it as a longer list than simply believing the Promise He made of Salvation for Belief.
I do think there will be answers required for the decleration of Heretic against a blood bought brother in Christ, just as thier will be for those who Damn people for Eschatology, for being Purpose or Seeker driven, you name it. Just looking at it from the other side I see us do exactly what we decry others doing.
Steve, check out this interview that Megan Kelley (of Fox) had with an Editor with US magazine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wJik26tDmE&eurl=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video_log/
The penumlative thread in my series on Aimee Semple McPherson has just been posted at FTA:
http://fromtheashesblog.com/?p=1148
Scott
She chewed him up and spit him out! What a bunch of Hooey. US owes Sarah an apology
US magazine that is…very very very misleading cover and article (sounds like–I haven’t read it and won’t but the rag)
“US owes Sarah an apology” I’m not holding my breath
The dog doo has just begun to fly. This next two mos. is going to being very entertaining. I’m just glad I have XM Radio that I can listen to while out and about.
Why would anyone give a rip what the religious right has to say about anything?
We arent voting for a protestant pope-we’re voting for the leader of the free world. McCain’s been my guy from the beginning, and I couldnt care less if he worships buddha.
I always vote by mail. I can spare 10 minutes to do so. Maybe you need to stand in line for an afternoon to vote. I think it’s helpful for us white males to remember that it wasn’t that long ago that those who out number us-women and african americans did not have a right to vote.
Amazing that we take for granted a right that so many had to fight for.
JimB-I’m Amillennial if you’re keeping score.
Jim, good point.
This n that….
First, yes Scott, I will vote in November. And JimB I am very conservative. My convictions are decidedly misgovernment. I think government has shown that it is really only effective at two things; building roads and war. Other than that every other endeavor consistently declines in quality and increases in power and bureaucracy. I would put an end to Social Security because of the fraud. Not within the system but the fraud of the congress raiding the fund. I would end public education and turn it over to people. I am a radical for small small government.
And JimB, my amil views are precisely the reason for much of my feelings on this… you see I believe the beast from the sea is antiChristian Government. Government is self serving and consumptive.
Now here is the most important thing that I want to stress today. First, WAY too much has been made of Xenia’s comment on calvinism. It should have been laughed off. She is precious to this community and loves Michael and he reciprocates. As for setting the blog back two years….there has been a lot more blood spilt than that little nick. Anyway Xenia come back here and wack on us charismaniacs and leave the calvinist baiting to me.
oops should read … my convictions are decidedly anti government… spell check messed me up
oh yeah… and I would balance the budget and return to the gold standard…
And why in the world is NO ONE TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION… talk about short attention span…
MLD:
“Drew,
Now you have me curious. Do you know of a Protestant denomination that questions the salvation of another Protestant just because of their denominational affiliation?”
Yes! But not worth talking about, as I said fruitless.
I am a strong believer in the “local” church. What I mean by this is I believe God intended for believers to group together in their communities where they live and work.
In this “mega-church” age it is not un-common for people to drive 30 miles to attend a fellowship. How can one really be a part of a church community in these situations?
Take it from here.
Dave Wrote “But the fellowship is ultimately broken, each time, when their true attitude toward me comes out. I can accept them, but they will never accept me,”
That sums up my Christian experience, totally. The part after Once they realize evangelizing me wont have the effect, I have been “evangelized” once, which was five times to many. When I first became a “Christian” the reaching out came from me, not the church, I went to the studies, talked prayed, etc. Most of the folks who were part of the club viewed me as an absurdity, in fact I was told a few times at church in a service I was like the mascot, I E like a good lap dog, or an annoyance that should be told to go away.
brian…I’m so glad that you fix your eyes on Jesus and not some of his followers
Dread…I think you express many people’s views on government, including mine, but it is the world we live in.
I’ve done the whole party routine, my husband was asked to run for office and decided against it (in the interests of preserving our young family.)
Believe me, I’ve seen the dark underbelly of party politics and abusive government, yet I still believe that we should have a hand in shaping the policies that govern our lives.
I can’t tell you how many times politicians have changed their tunes when their DC office phones rang off the hooks from constituents. Home-schoolers, by the way, have learned to self-lobby in this way very effectively and state homeschool organizations can get information out quickly to members on proposed changes in laws that will affect their members. Other organizations operate similarly.
I agree that government and politics can distract, but listen, ministry cuts across all facets of life. Prayer is offered in committee rooms on a regular basis by prayer warrior lobbyists…I’ve met and prayed with them!
Think about it….isn’t sitting back and doing nothing in a fatalistic manner what drove the established church in Germany to do nothing as Hitler slowly came to power and began putting his beliefs into actions? In The Hiding Place, Corrie Ten Boom, whose brother was a pastor in Germany, began warning the family in letters that changes were happening in people’s attitudes, then finally in government actions.
I don’t go down easy…we, who know the Word and who know God, have a responsibility, I believe, to participate in government, at the very least through prayer and voting, and if so gifted, enabled and called by God, through analysis of proposed legislation, through vetting and supporting candidates who will make decisions based in character and conviction.
Each of us, through the gifts God’s given have a unique take on exercising faith…for some, it is helps, for others it is administration, for still others, it is exhortation…you get the point. I believe we are called to use our gifts, not just in the local church, but in a way that can minister to those outside the church.
Doctrine should not drive passivity…. we have an active, dynamic faith, and we should not belittle those who use their gifts even outside the church to make our lives better. I’m not advocating the policies of one party, I’m just asking you to examine your own convictions and take the time to evaluate which candidates most represent what are your convictions.
Know the Lord, know His Word, know your convictions which should be driven by your faith, and participate in the communities in which God has placed us.
Let’s see, could exhortation be one of my gifts
Now, I’ll stop.
Linnea, well said. Engagement in the political process when we have the freedom is part of being salt and light.
We have great freedom and latitude as individuals as to how and to what degree we choose to participate. We have room and must exercise grace towards those struggling with apathy yet apathy cannot stand long at the podium.
This is a great summary to a great exhortation that was also given with explanation.
“Know the Lord, know His Word, know your convictions which should be driven by your faith, and participate in the communities in which God has placed us.”
Vic…thanks. Guess I’m feeling a little feisty this morning
Linnea, thank you. I am going to make a list of all the politicians that represent the area in which I live and start praying as I should.
That is my starting point. I will have to actually make the effort to learn who they are.
So I am curious; why all the bad vibes toward Dr. James Dobson? He’s not a preacher like Rick Warren, isn’t trying to bilk any one for their money like the TV guys, He doesn’t hold bizarre crusades like Bentley, Hasn’t had an affair or cheated any one…he’s a guy working through the political process to preserve what he thinks is good!
Dread -
“And why in the world is NO ONE TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION… talk about short attention span…”
Because this is one area in which McCain & Obama agree. They’re both for amnesty. Actually, this is one area in which many Republicans are very dissatisfied with McCain, but at this point they don’t have any options.
Steve
I have no problems with Dobson. When I was a pastor I showed his fil series at my church, I have most of his books. But when I began attending cc, his name was like poison. I understand that not all cc pastors feel that way, but the 2 churches that I was associated with were. The feeling was psychology and the Bible don’t mix well.
Tim
Creo que las fronteras deben estar abiertas a todos!
Dobson’s materials helped me parent two active, head strong boys.
Jeanne Lush (whom I heard on Dobson’s radio praogram), a now deceased Australian family therapist and author of Mothers and Sons, Raising Boys to be Men, gave me, a fairly compliant child who had only a sister who was 7 years younger, valuable perspectives in parenting boys. Dobson’s Bringing up Boys and the Strong-Willed Child both helped me mother my now young men.
I know many don’t like Dobson using his bully-pulpit to influence politics, however, his organization produces materials that helped me and my family. Frankly, I don’t have a problem with his involvement in politics. It is us, professing Christians, who have a responsibility to educate ourselves, which includes weighing all information and not buying a position hook, line and sinker.
CON (which makes for an interesting abbreviation
) -
I didn’t say what my views are on the subject; I’m just reporting what Obama’s & McCain’s view are. And they both basically agree with your statement.
***why all the bad vibes toward Dr. James Dobson?***
The man clearly has issues. He’s controlling, emotionally repressed, and focuses on rules and outward appearances/behaviour to the detriment of an individuals inner emotional, spiritual health. He hopelessly conflates love with punishment and, through his books, has had a hand in the emotional traumatization of who knows how many christian children. Beyond that, if one actually reads his books, it becomes clear pretty quickly that he doesn’t actually have a very good grasp on christian teaching or doctrine.
He’s free to do what he wants, but given his hopelessly messed-up mind-set and beliefs, he is not someone I hope is successful in his efforts to affect public policy. He’s creepy and weird and kind of scary.
Not really sure where to post this, but if you are even remotely thinking about voting for Obama, this is a must to read:
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=305420655186700
Jessica
I don’t know how old you are or if you have children. For those of us who have children his books have been of great help in parenting.
I am not one who is very politically motivated. I tend to not address those issues at my church nor do I allow any political material to be distributed at here, but we live in a society that IMHO, is becoming more and more evil. Some one once said of the job of lawmakers is to “protect the good.”
We also live in a society that is suppose to be government for the people by the people. I am thankful for people like Dobson who are using the system we live in to work toward good.
When Israel was taken captive by the Babylonians, many said God would never do that. But thru the prophet Jeremiah, God said, “it is going to happen and for 70 years so (and I am paraphrasing) get jobs, enroll your kids in school and seek the betterment of the city” That sounds like politics to me.
Like Warren, or Hybels, or any one who is out front doing something for the kingdom and not in the shadows, he is criticized for his methods and strong stance.
Im praying for him
Jessica
But you answered my question. Thanks
Jessica, all psychologists are **creepy and wierd and kind of scary** - I think it’s the subject matter they’re dealing with that does it…
Dobson, IMO, loves the Lord and has no hidden agenda - just trying to put together iron and clay perhaps…
IMO this year we Christians have to chose between two evil political parties. Once has chosen to try to keep power with 2 good, honest heroic people. The other hopes to use some classy, politically savvy figureheads to schmooze us once again. Either way behind them is a whole lot of evil machinations. I’m praying, but I honestly don’t know what for…God’s will be done.
BTW does CON’s declaration translate: **I believe that the borders(?) should be open for all**? No wonder he put it in Spanish
Jessica, all psychologists are **creepy and wierd and kind of scary** - I think it’s the subject matter they’re dealing with that does it…
Really?
I don’t think that’s anywhere near true. Psychologists I’ve known and worked with are basically trying to help people lead better lives.
I don’t think you can blame Dobson’s stand on the fact that he’s a psychologist. Not at all.
***I don’t know how old you are or if you have children. For those of us who have children his books have been of great help in parenting.***
I will be 27 in 15 days. I don’t have children of my own. However, I was a child once, and I experienced first-hand Dobson’s child-rearing techniques. I found them to be very negative and to result in a lot of emotional and spiritual trauma and confusion.
I have read his books for myself, and no matter how much he claims to be presenting “biblical” principles, his ideas really aren’t very christian. He grew up in an controlling religious environment which he embraced and is now instructing other people to follow.
***Jessica, all psychologists are **creepy and wierd and kind of scary** - I think it’s the subject matter they’re dealing with that does it…***
I disagree. I have read other books by other psychologist, and have not found them creepy, weird, or even the least bit scary. In fact, with the last couple weeks I just read “Changes That Heal” by Dr. Henry Cloud. Far from being creepy or weird, he seemed very practical, compassionate and respectful of other people, and basically very grounded in reality. Dobson, on the other hand, does not come across as being any of those things.
Jessica,
“However, I was a child once, and I experienced first-hand Dobson’s child-rearing techniques.”
I am not a Dobson fan by any means, but is it possible that those who applied those Dobson techniques on you/to you misapplied what was in the program? Is it possible that they were working on their own issues through you? Perhaps you need to direct your anger in their direction?
My wife and I used the Dobson books in very different ways on our 3 kids. She tried to work the program on them. I used the book to spank them - I think my application was quite a bit more effective
MLD, I definitely have enough opprobrium to go around.
One of the things that stood out to me when I was reading Dobson’s books is that he is simply not a good writer. He is not clear in what he says, and he actually contradicts himself quite a bit. It seems to me that it is, therefore, possible for the people who read his books to come away with basically whatever they want to come away with. However, they come away with their own ideas believing that a famous, christian psychologist holds their views.
Besides that, Dobson really comes across to me as a person who has a lot of anger bottled up inside him. If you read some of the stories he uses to illustrate his beliefs perhaps you’ll see that they come across as very weird and inappropriate and oftentimes have an undercurrent of anger or dislike.
I honestly don’t understand why so many christians think he’s such a great, caring, and helpful advisor when his writing is so bad, his illustrations so inappropriate, and his understanding of scripture seems so faulty. I don’t understand why so many christians don’t seem to see these things about his parenting philosophy.
Jessica
I never have responded to any of your posts before, but you seem to be very cynical. I am 63 years old and have raised 8 children. I have problems with Dobson when he plays the political card, but I have also found his books to be very helpful. I’m with “the pot stirrer” oops MLD, maybe his techniques were misapplied with you. All my children have grown and most have children. They all seem well adjusted.
BBDread and Linnea,
great posts! Thank you!
I honestly don’t understand why so many christians think he’s such a great, caring, and helpful advisor when his writing is so bad, his illustrations so inappropriate, and his understanding of scripture seems so faulty. I don’t understand why so many christians don’t seem to see these things about his parenting philosophy.
Perhaps the answer is most parents have experienced success.
BTW, I care more about the thought content than how well the book is written. But that’s me. I understand that some people get turned off immediately by poor writing.
One more thing, the superintendent of the school where I work is a relative of Dobson. He knows him quite well, and speaks very highly of his character.
LFT,
You seem to have a fear of all things Obama.
Jessica,
“MLD, I definitely have enough opprobrium to go around.”
Dang, now I have to get out the dictionary!
“I went to the studies, talked prayed, etc. Most of the folks who were part of the club viewed me as an absurdity.”
Count me in your camp brian!
One of the requirements of the seminary Im going through is to read and analyze a book called “six tough questions for the church”.
Its been quite eye opening for me, and rather encouraging,and refreshing,
as it exposes some of the mindset and “club member” mentality in the institutional church and leadership that we are plagued with
Hold on and I will share a few quotes…
MDL
“scorn, contempt, or severe criticism” I got there first!
A president of one of the colleges I attended use words when he prayed that none of us college students understood. We often wondered if God had to use a dictionary.
LFT, thanks for sharing the Editorial link. I’ll pas it on.
Bob,
thanks
LFT,
Boy, that sure was an unbiased piece. I will point out that it was their Opinion section and not News. Talk about an article that hit all the “hot” points with baited language.
Scott,
Thanks for passing it on!
If you are interested in buying Mark Driscoll’s upcoming book Death by Love, when you order it from Crossway you’ll get the free PDF version immediately as a download.
http://www.crossway.org/product/9781433501296
Hope everyone here, commenter and reader alike, is having a great day!
Lutheran,
The thought of Obama in office scares me to death!!
In most churches:
Living the “christian life” is mainly about supporting church activities,
the basic assumption is the primary expression of ones talents and gifts is to be at the church or in supporting church programs…
Operating upon the premise that following Jesus means to join the church and adopt the church lifestyle,
Believing people will grow more like Jesus by hanging out at the church.
Measuring peoples spirituality in terms of “commitment” to the institution .
These assumptions are frightfully prevalent in the church culture.
And even more frightening, they may be preventing people from entering the Kingdom of God.
LFT~
Im with you on that one!
“The thought of Obama in office scares me to death!!”
Honestly cant see why anyone would vote for the man…
Unless of course,
one likes the idea of
More government control, out of control spending, higher taxes,
and a young inexperienced untested man in an influential position;
Just look at the former mayor of Detroit,
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=4355795&page=1
***I don’t understand why so many christians don’t seem to see these things about his parenting philosophy.
Perhaps the answer is most parents have experienced success.***
Have most parents experienced success? Is there anything that would suggest that that is true?
And, how does one define success?
***BTW, I care more about the thought content than how well the book is written. But that’s me. I understand that some people get turned off immediately by poor writing.***
I mention Dobson’s poor writing skills only because I think it is important that a book of the sort Dobson writes be written well enough that it is clear, easily understandable, and non-contradictory. Dobson’s books, however, are not; they meander all over the place, do not stay on point, and are blatantly contradictory in several important areas. For example, in one place Dobson says that he believes that children should only be spanked by their parents. Then in another part he talks about grandparents spanking children and teachers spanking children. How is a person who is reading his books supposed to understand how spanking should and should not be used when Dobson himself is unclear and contradictory? That is why, I think Dobson’s poor writing skills are worthy of mention.
***One more thing, the superintendent of the school where I work is a relative of Dobson. He knows him quite well, and speaks very highly of his character.***
I could probably find quite a few people who know me personally and who would speak highly of me. In fact, I bet most people–good and bad–have someone who speaks highly of them. I don’t understand how somebody speaking highly of you affects the rightness or wrongness of your parenting philosophy.
Finally, so I seem very cynical to you. What does that have to do with Dobson’s parenting philosophy? I may or may not be cynical, but that in no way affects Dobson’s inability to present genuinely christian ideas in a clear and non-contradictory way.
For what it matters, I don’t just blindly dislike and disagree with Dobson’s philosophy. I have read his books, and I have given a good deal of thought as to why I disagree with him and what I find wrong with his books. And I’m in the process of writing about that here.
I think I have good reasons for holding the opinions about his beliefs that I do, and I think I back those opinions up fairly well with extensive exerpts from his own books.
Jessica:
I have read your blog and many of your comments on PP about Dobson and quite frankly I believe it isn’t Dobson who has the problems here.
Yes there are things which all of us differ in and can find fault in but Dobson got his start because there is a need by all parents for help in raising children.
I have stated on PP before I believe Dobson’s child raising instruction are helps, just like my favorite book, “Love and Logic…” are. None of us can apply 100% of what we are taught, we always take the info, processes it and then apply it in a way which is unique to us.
Most of what I read from you about Dobson says to me you have issues not with Dobson, but maybe with how you were raised. May I suggest you should share these issues a little more privately with someone you trust and can help you work through them.
If I am wrong just chalk it up to a man who has struggled with the raising of my own children.
Drew
Jessica
I have neither the time or desire to have a battle of words with you. Please understand that there are those also have good reasons for holding the opinions that disagree with yours.
With words like “opprobrium”, you would probably win the battle.
Back to quotes from the book:
“Many church members feel they have been sold a bill of goods.
They were promised that if they would be good church members if they would discover their gifts, or join a small group, sign up for church ministry, give to the building program, tithe regularly, learn to clap and worship accordingly, attend this or that,
(be at church 3,5 or even 7 days a week) they would experience full and meaningful life.
Trouble is, we dont have much evidence to support the assumption that all this church activity has produced more mature followers of Jesus.
It has produced many tired, burned out members who find their lives mimic the lives and dilemmas of people in the culture who dont pay expenses for the church.”
“Have most parents experienced success? Is there anything that would suggest that that is true?”
“And, how does one define success?”
The way in which I see my children living and raising their own children suggests that its true.
In this case, I would define success in my children by the fact that they have grown to love and serve the Lord who saved them!!
And before you respond, please keep in mind that you do not know my children!
“Church activity is a poor substitute for genuine Spiritual vitality”
Consider the burnout of many ministers
who struglle with the increase of expectations on the part of church members;
Many men and women who entered the ministry with a clear sense of call to make a difference feel overwhelmed, bewildered, defeated, and generally unprepared for the challenges they face”
and many times with little to no support from the sending/home church
As Victorious pointed out on the Dave Rolph live thread…many church planters are sent out in the same manner as some parents teach their kids to swim, just throw them out there into the pool, river.
To which I add, some have thrown those who desired to church plant out into the ocean crashing with waves, a strong undercurrent, with no life preserver, no assistance, merely a prayer, God be with You!
God be with them indeed!
“Many ministers have no idea what skills should be in their leadership backpacks. The senior pastor of a multiple hundred member congregation, must now be a manager of corporate culture, head hunter, personal manager, strategic planner, fundraiser, expert communicator, cheif vision developer, ministry entrepeneur, architectural consultant, plus whatever particular assistance or role that the congregation needs at any given time…”
Dave Rolph,
what are your thoughts in regards to this?
You must have to wear many hats in this regard…
Do you feel weary or energized, if you dont mind my asking?
Bob Sweat,
perhaps you have some thoughts as to what this author is saying.
You know, I have been thinking and praying for you often.
The value that you have in reaching the youth in the school, the opportunity to minister to them in ways that many people couldnt reach. Helping to coach kids in their life developement. Many of these kids havent likely had much parental influence, learning more of their values from peers and MTV… well maybe its not MTV as the hot thing kids watch these days,,, but more influenced by media…
Sis -
I’m not Dave, but I can tell you that I look at that list & start to get a queasy panicked feeling in my stomach. I understand that this is reality in a lot of places, but I can’t help but feeling that it doesn’t remotely resemble what Jesus told Peter: “Feed My sheep.”
If those truly are the expectations of pastors, then it’s no surprise some megachurch pastors get big heads. Why wouldn’t they?
Sis
I’m at loss for what book or author.
Sis
I have not read all of this thread. I came in on the Dobson discussion.
Sarah
If you’re lurking, got your message, the answer is yes!
Jessica
Well, you’ve stated your concerns and objections to Dobson and you are certainly entitled to your opinions. I don’t agree with all of his stuff but for the most part it’s better than anything else out there and until there is an alternative (your book on child rearing?
) I’ll stick with his.
Again, I am not really into the evangelical right thing or voting powert but for those who don’t like his politics who else do you know that is lobbying for the fbiblical values we hold dear?
Bob,
here is something the Author Reggie McNeal writes which you might be able to identify with,
“helping people to see that God has already placed them in a job, neighborhood, relationship or life assignment where their gifts and influence can be developed as they partner with Gods mission of redemption in the world.
It is absurd that school teachers [counselors, principals] that have contact with dozens of students everyday be underdeveloped as to their missionary potential.
They usually have more face to face time with students than anyone else (even parents) [but not friends] Why in the world would we do anything that would make these educators/administrators feel or believe that they had to pursue their personal spiritual ministry developement down at the church and away from the classroom/school?
Imagine helping people see how God can get into and infuse the life they already have, instead of asking to give up their life for the church and church activities.”
I would love to read your feedback on his assertions here!
Bob…thanks!
Sis
I need some time to think before I respond.
Bob Sweat,
My apologies,
This began in response to what I see brian has experienced in the church: Churchianity as opposed to genuine Christianity.
The mindset of being “good churchmembers” and Supporters of the “institutional church” and her programs to the exclusion of helping people develope in their spiritual growth in Following Christ in their communities.
There were a few thoughts, from Author Reggie McNeal presents in his book, “The Present Future: Six tough Questions for the Church”
that I posted, 11:35, 11:41,3 and 57…that i though you might have some of your own ideas about…
Does that help?
Sis
Yes it does. I will read those posts. thank you!
Bob,
Your 12:03;
Thanks for taking the time to consider the value, if you see any, of the veiwpoints the author is presenting.
Here is a short bio of the author,
Director of leadership developement for the So. Carolina Baptist Convention.
20 years of leadership roles in localcongregations
over 10 years working with thousands of church leaders,
counseling local churches, denominational groups
seminary colleges and para-church organizations
in their leadership developement needs.
For what its worth
Lutheran, my observation on psychologists was overstated … I apologize to all the unwierd, hard working (tough job) professionals in the field.
As one of the few pew sitters here, it gives me no pleasure in reading Sister Christian’s quotes from “6 tough questions…” knowing that that is exactly what we experienced in the last 50 years of church going…with one exception - an EUB congregation of several hundred - and I’m trying to figure out how they were different - for one thing they were ‘country’ people and had good country manners - a line from a song/hymn is floating in my head: “it’s because we’re a family and these folks are so dear…”
***I don’t agree with all of his stuff but for the most part it’s better than anything else out there and until there is an alternative (your book on child rearing?
) I’ll stick with his.***
But there are alternatives out there already. “Families Where Grace Is In Place” by Jeff VanVonderan, “The Complete Book of Christian Parenting & Child Care” by William and Martha Sears, “Parent Effectiveness Training” by Thomas Gordon, “Between Parent and Child” by Dr. Haim Ginott, “How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk” by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. And those are just a few. There are basically tons of alternatives. And all one has to do to find them is browse Amazon for 2 minutes.
***In this case, I would define success in my children by the fact that they have grown to love and serve the Lord who saved them!!***
I guess that just shows our different experiences. I attended a christian school, so I know a lot of people who were raised in the church and parented in the “proper” christian manner. Some have remained christians after having grown up, but a surprisingly large number of them are not living in a way that is noticeably christian. Instead, they’re out there doing the same sorts of things that non-christians do.
It sounds like your children fall into the first group. Good for them, and good for you.
Jess
Thanks for the alternatives. Unfortunately, I know nothing of those people, their credentials or who published them…So I m sticking with Jimmy D
Sister,
I agree with most of your earlier posts. Christians spend far too much time in church. I think that it is odd that anyone would even venture to evaluate another person’s spirituality using any measure, let alone how much they do at church.
This quote; “helping people to see that God has already placed them in a job, neighborhood, relationship or life assignment where their gifts and influence can be developed as they partner with Gods mission of redemption in the world.” Sounds very much like the Lutheran doctrine of vocation - that we serve and love our neighbor through our daily activities - which is the ONLY biblical work of the church in the community.
I do however take offense by his next quotation (which probably invalidates all else that he says.) “It is absurd that school teachers [counselors, principals] that have contact with dozens of students everyday be underdeveloped as to their missionary potential.”
Does anyone here really want to open up our public schools to open evangelization? How about when teacher Ali wants to counsel your child with his missionary potential?
Sister Christian,
Thanks for your support!
Christian homes, schools, parenting are no guarantee that the child will grow up a walk with the Lord. As a parent, I was my responsibility to do the best that I could. I failed many times, but my children have always known of my desire and prayer that they follow the ways of the Lord.
Jessica, have you read any of the books that you recommended? A couple on the list are good books. As I mentioned before, I don’t buy into all of what Dobson says, but he does present ideas that can be useful for parents.
Having said that, there were many times when all the book knowledge in the world could never do what going to your knees and even fasting in prayer for your children. My wonderful wife has regularly prayed and fasted over our children. There was considerable rebellion from most. They ran with the wrong crowd, some even lived with their boyfriends, but eventually they were broken, not by suggestions from books, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. God allowed me to be present during that brokenness for which I give Him praise! As they were broken so was I before a God who faithfully answered our prayers.
***Thanks for the alternatives. Unfortunately, I know nothing of those people, their credentials or who published them…So I m sticking with Jimmy D***
Any search engine will help you find out who these people are, what their qualifications are, and who their publishers are in just a couple minutes. They will also, most likely, direct you to some websites that have exerpts of their books or samples of their writing available for your perusal.
I can understand that you haven’t heard of most of those people, but I am a little surprised that you’ve never heard of Jeff VanVonderen. He wrote the book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” which I have to imagine has been mentioned at least once or twice on PP.
A website here in southern CA. for Dr. Sears is Ask Dr.Sears.com.(http://www.askdrsears.com/) He is a pediatrician with very helpful books on parenting. I’m with Jessica on Dobson. Dr. Sears is my cup of tea and worth checking out IMO.
As far as I’m concerned, any book by Jeff Vanvonderen is worth its weight in gold. We used “Families Where Grace is in Place” with our
kids. If you’ve been exposed to shame-based churches and groups, it’s
especially a must read.
I was thinking about brokenness, an next to grief it is something I try to avoid. Not that I will not be broken before God, even seek brokenness, but showing it, or even hinting at it in the faith community is something I avoid, actually I wont allow.
“Does anyone here really want to open up our public schools to open evangelization? How about when teacher Ali wants to counsel your child with his missionary potential?”
MLD~
Do you really think that our teachers, counselors, principles are neutral and not evangelising something? Education in many cases is their God, government and institution is being pushed big time. Not to mention abortion, homosexuality, tolerance in the name of intolerance against Christian views.
Why not encourage Christians in the secular schools, the public school system to be examples of truth, justice, mercy, helping kids to see a hope and a future for their lives?
There are so many kids who have raised themselves, and are completely lost. We so often assume that kids in school have self discipline, responsibility, have it all together, etc, etc,
Christians can encourage youth in personal growth
can encourage kids that someone cares for them, guide them to make right choices…
when no one else may or
can help kids with their hopes and dreams for the future.
Im sure, you as a Christian, can think of many ways to be a positive role model and influence in the life of a student,
and in the fashion of St. Francis of Assisi living out the gospel,
and only when neccesary to use words…
It seems to me the church has things backwards sometimes,
We give a bad witness with our lives and then try to give someone the romans road, or steps to salvation, and they in turn refuse to give a hearing to what we have to say…
Instead of loving our neighbors and loving God, being a good witness and testimony within our community, as they see our good deeds and glorify God,
and then as they KNOW, really Know that we genuinely care about them, share the good news of our Savior… and witness how responsive they are to the words we share.
and before you go there,
I am convicted that I could show love and care about people more and be a better witness for our Lord. As could most of us…
I like parentingministry.org.
Sister,
“and then as they KNOW, really Know that we genuinely care about them, share the good news of our Savior… and witness how responsive they are to the words we share.”
I have no problem with teachers being a good example and helping students be good citizens and developing a good self image along with learning how to do for others.
However, and you avoided this, when teacher Ali does the same, do you want him sharing out of the Koran Jesus as a prophet and Mohammed to be the last and greatest prophet from the true God Allah? For some reason I think you would be at the next board meeting.
Sister,
“We so often assume that kids in school have self discipline, responsibility, have it all together, etc, etc,”
Anyone who has raised kids through high school has long abandoned those thoughts
Ah, MLD~
Board meetings aren’t my cup of tea,
Didnt intentionally avoid what you said,
“How about when teacher Ali wants to counsel your child with his missionary potential?”
I actually missed it…
However, i did indirectly address it by saying that people can witness with their lives without actually “proselytizing” students.
Whats more important, is that we agree on another point!
when you say,
“I agree with most of your earlier posts. Christians spend far too much time in church. I think that it is odd that anyone would even venture to evaluate another person’s spirituality using any measure, let alone how much they do at church.”
That blesses me to discover we have some common ground,
Hopefully we can continue to build upon it in the future!
This is pretty cool. Falls in line with some of the posting above!
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=240ad5b9b413aa7346a1
One more. They are quite good!
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=3bb12d203f45a912eeaf
Sarah Palin’s speech was excellent! I agree, I cannot imagine why anyone would even consider voting for Obama. Sarah’s made numerous comments clearly pointing out Obama’s weaknesses, inexperience and arrogance. She has given a new hope and breath of fresh air to the Republican Party.
Obama’s recent comments stating that she (Sarah) went out and did what McCain instructed her to do (as though she was incapable on her own) is another form of the “Sweetie” comment. Obama degrades women in these ways to make himself feel better. Working women/mothers across American deal with this type of ridicule and arrogance on a daily basis in the workplace.
Also: What Sarah described as “small town” is how I was raised, the community I grew up in (as most Americans). Obama mocks small town America. His comments about faith showed his true colors IMHO. Along with his wife’s about being proud of the United States of America. Imagine having a First Lady with that attitude!
Correction: Along with his wife’s comments about NOT being proud of the United States of American (until recently, for the first time).