Welcome to the big ol' honking Linkathon. I'm posting a daily linkathon at my new, personal blog, and it's already been very helpful to me in compiling links for this thread. Here's the all-in-one, best links I found over the past week; if you want every link I posted, visit my blog and look for the linkathons. Let's get started!
Dan Edelen's latest post may be one of the best blog posts you'll read this year.
Here, he nails it regarding how the common man and woman are getting screwed by corporate America; evangelicalism's unrealistic prescriptions for our country's financial ills; and the unholy marriage between evangelicalism and the world.
The following link from Marty Duren's blog may be another of the best links you'll read all year, and I'll sum it up thusly: American Evangelical Christendom is dying, if not already dead; long live the Church.
Think the emerging church is dead? Michael Patton argues otherwise. Ed Stetzer weighs in. Scot McKnight writes about the split-off of the emerging church he and Dan Kimball are co-heading. And Andrew Jones talks about the demise of the term 'emerging church'.
From the Acts 29 blog, D.A. Carson on five trends in the church today. iMonk responds.
Barton at From the Ashes on how we should be remembered when we pass on.
If you work at a church and are into creativity and visual arts, Barton Damer's Already Been Chewed blog may prove extremely helpful to you. (HT: Ben Arment)
Ligonier has a page with summaries of each session of its West Coast Conference held last weekend.
Kem Meyer lists people's reasons for using Facebook and/or Twitter.
All of the video, audio and notes from each session of last weekend's Desiring God Conference (HT: Justin Taylor).
Want to catch up on Granger Community Church's Innovate '08 conference, featuring such speakers as Steven Furtick, Bobby Gruenewald and Tim Stevens? Do so right here. (HT: Kem Meyer)
Follow Scot McKnight's series on the gospel here.
Ryan Couch gives his account of the Calvary Chapel Northwest Pastors Conference.
Trevin Wax interviews Justin Taylor about the ESV Study Bible. The Taylor interviews give a great glimpse into the making of a study Bible.
I had my own take on study Bibles (including the ESV Study Bible).
PyroManiacs is going dark for all of October.
Part 3 of R.C. Sproul's book Does Prayer Change Things? is online.
Vitamin Z links to some helpful online, FREE 
resources from Covenant Seminary, including classes you can take online for FREE
From sermoncentral.com, Outreach Magazine's 100 largest and 100 fastest-growing churches in America. PP readers might want to make the time to examine these lists (HT: Ed Stetzer).
Michael Patton says Calvinists often make the worst Calvinists. 
The Resurgence interviewed Christian hip-hop artist Lecrae. It also posted the latest chapter of Driscoll's e-book on p*rn, male sexuality and other things not discussed in polite society but probably very helpful to a large group of men.
Jonathan Dodson on why evangelism methods must change.
iMonk intros his series on rebaptism, followed by a second and a third and final part of the series.
Tim Challies reviews Mark Driscoll and Gerry Breshear's book Death by Love; my review is forthcoming, sooner or later
Alan Hirsch gives his answer on if fundamentalism is a true expression of Christianity (a hint: no).
Ed Stetzer interviews megachurch pastors Kerry Shook and Perry Noble.
ERunner on mental illness.
J.D. Greear on why hell troubles us so.
Stetzer kicks off his series on megachurches. Stetzer also is interviewed by Joe Thorn at sub.text about suburban churches. (HT: Steve McCoy)
Three questions that mess Perry Noble up.
I normally steer clear of politics, but a post by Bryon Mondok about a letter from an Iraqi man he befriended is worth your while to read.
Tim Challies posted this Puritan prayer of penitence. It comes from a book called The Valley of Vision and nails it in so far as how I feel sometimes. Fortunately, I believe God is willing to answer this kind of prayer when we mean it
Those who have lost a loved one may find Greg Laurie's blog to be a resource that ministers to them as they work through their loss. Greg, who lost his son, Christopher, in a car accident this summer, has been writing most recently about heaven.
iMonk reviews and endorses a book called Saving Paradise - not unreservedly and not without qualifications on his part - by Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker.
Ben Arment wrote an article for Collide magazine on innovation and make some interesting points about "most innovative" megachurches. Carlos Whitaker riffed on those points with his brief observations about serving at a "portable" church, and Bryon Mondok riffs on both Arment and Whitaker with his own observations about portable churches and innovation. All three links are well worth your time.
Adrian Warnock posted on Mark Driscoll's speech at a Minneapolis-area college, before he spoke at the Desiring God conference.
Bob Hyatt on multi-site, the low tech way.
C.J. Mahaney on Os Guinness's teaching on doubt.
iMonk responds to Greg Gilbert's blog posts about the gospel. (HT on the blog links to Gilbert's posts, which were compiled by Justin Taylor, to iMonk, in the first link)
iMonk on the missing voice of the Christian counter-culture.
Dan Phillips wrote a great article on our "dreadful, accountable freedom".
Great conversation over at Challies' blog on whether Christians should buy only from Christian bookstores over retailers like Amazon.
Why Driscoll loves John Piper (undoubtedly in a manly heterosexual way)
Ligonier's top five commentaries on Psalms.
Wendy Alsup, a female deacon at Driscoll's Mars Hill Church, is blogging on issues pertinent to women. (HT: Adrian Warnock)
Brian,
You may have bought into CJ Mahaney’s PR machine. With a 12 million dollar budget, it’s understandable why it’s so effective.
You’re missing some gold regarding polity and missiology at sgmrefuge.
I have no problem saying this, as I’m no longer the author.
Maybe it’s time to give us a fresh look?
The 12 mill doesn’t include CJ’s personal royalties from book sales.
This is not a sin by any means, but is starkly contrasted by John Piper, who accepts no royalties. My feeling is that more people will read and remember Piper in 50 years than they will CJ.
CJ/SGM has an agenda, I think that if you knew their agenda, you might be more cautious in promoting it.
Jim,
I’m not trying to promote Mahaney.
In fact I’m not sure (especially in my more cynical moments) that any of these preachers don’t have some sort of agenda.
Yet God chooses to use some of the most infuriating people to spread His gospel.
When I talk about Driscoll, Mahaney et al it is because I see something that ultimately points to Jesus. I admit I cannot do this with Heitzig.
I am certainly open to correction as I am prone to messing up as anyone.
I highly respect what you do and hope God will use you as His tool to help accomplish His ultimate will for Mahaney and SGM.
Jim,
If you don’t mind, I just sent you an e mail.
Ooops…I just put Jim’s name where mine is supposed to be!
One comment that stood out on the Dan Edelen’s blog I think it was about corporate cruelty really struck home, but they dont hold a candle, not even close on the cruelty of some “ministries” they put corporations to complete shame in this area. No corp that exists out side of the Jesus industry resigns some poor soul to eternal torment for ticking off the big cheese. Also Corps dont blabber on and on about oh we love you what you do is eternal bla bla then sink the knife in or pull the rug out, or both at the same time. In the corp world you may not have a paddle, in the faith industry, if you get the boot, you not only wont have a paddle, you wont have a boat or a creek for that matter.
Mark Driscoll said:
“Basically, the gist is that no matter what I say, the critics who forget the whole plank-speck thing Jesus talked about will make every effort to turn it into controversy with their cutting remarks. Should be fun.”
I basically like Mark D. but he constantly does one thing which really turns me away from his messages and it is something John Piper does not do, he draws attention to himself.
Mark’s words are meant to shock, not for their wisdom from scripture but from the crassness of the world.
Now I haven’t gone to one of his meetings other than watch him on internet video, but I wonder who the glory is going to in his “ministry.”
Oh and the plank speck thing is about judging one’s righteousness with God.
Just a thought or two.
Is it just me, or did Dan Edelen miss Mohler’s entire point? Mohler rightly pointed the finger at greed & unscrupulous business practices as the problem, and Edelen accuses Mohler of being blind to greed.
Did I miss something?
BrianD -
“Michael Patton says Calvinists often make the worst Calvinists.”
This link seems to be bad.
From my reading, Edelen is accusing Mohler of living in the past and not understanding how the economy is affecting the working class, as well as having no concept of how the average, working class person lives.
Let me fix it.
Fixed.
BrianD -
On Edelen…
That’s exactly what he’s accusing Mohler of, but I didn’t see Mohler ignoring the critical issues that are behind the modern financial crisis. He pointed out some history for comparison (to be sure), but didn’t dwell on that.
Edelen focuses his ire on this statement from Mohler:
———
Christians should look at the economy as a test of our values. The Bible values honest labor and dedicated workers, and so should we. The Bible warns against dishonest business practices, and we must be watchful. False valuations are, in effect, lies. Dishonest accounting practices are just sophisticated forms of lying. Insider information is a form of theft.
The Bible honors investment and thrift, and Christians must be wary of the impulse for short-term gains and pressure for instant profit. Over the long-haul, the entire economy must prosper if the vast majority are to do well and realize a responsible gain.
————–
But that’s a minor point in Mohler’s overall post & he only uses it to make the argument that the financial crisis is primarily due to poor business practices that are antithetical to Biblical ethics.
Edelen may have reason to be mad because of the way folks are treated in the cubicle culture (been there; done that) - but I think he’s taking his anger out on the wrong person. Mohler’s article (from my reading) seems to be a fair take.
In the words of a friend of mine, what am I missing?
I completely get what Edelen is saying even if he didn’t say it well.
The values I believed would bring success as a young person no longer apply to corporate America.
The only values now are growth and greed.
The days when hard work and loyalty meant something are gone.
I have seen countless people who were good, hard working, honest people eaten up alive and spit out because they couldn’t handle the demands of double digit quarterly growth to please stock holders.
I could keep up before, I’m not sure I can now..
BrianD -
Thanks for fixing the link…great article!
Michael -
I don’t disagree with Edelen on that point. But I don’t think Mohler would disagree with him on that either.
Back to C.J. Mahaney:
I am discussing his book Living the Cross-Centered Life on my blog, true.
I put a disclaimer on the first thread basically saying that I was discussing it not to lift up Mahaney, but to lift up Jesus. I was asked to read the book recently, and I saw a couple of things in the portion I’ve read thus far, that pointed to Jesus.
For me…there are authors I read for information. All I expect out of them is a good book, or good blog article, or good sermon.
And there are pastors, authors, etc. that I not only expect good sermons, articles, and the like but I also look to as a good example of being a Christian, being a pastor, being a leader.
I’ve been around churches and ministry leaders long enough to know that there are a lot of godly men and women in the bunch…and there are some really flawed people. Some who set very bad examples on how to act and conduct one’s self.
Yet…God seems to use flawed people and bad apples to proclaim his Gospel. That does not excuse their behavior.
Martin Luther’s anti-Semitism would not fly in today’s culture.
A.W. Tozer is one of the most highly-regarded writers in Christianity, yet he is said to have (in some way or another) neglected his wife, a concept that is NOT taught in Scripture.
How many megachurch leaders do you think are quite, humble men and not domineering, A1 types?
Maybe I am being extremely pragmatic. But I’ve learned over the years that no man is perfect, they all have their flaws, and that God has used very, very flawed men before (via tape, CD, radio, book, internet) to teach me His truths. I don’t expect that to change any time soon.
As I also said on my blog, if you can’t learn from someone, that’s fine. There are plenty of other gifted, talented, blessed-and-used-by-God teachers out there you can be edified by.
That said….
I still hope Driscoll finishes well, and ends up bringing glory to Jesus through his life and ministry, not that he looks good at his death having hid all his mess from public view.
I hope the same for Mahaney.
uh, I meant QUIET, humble men
Good Morning…don’t mean to interrupt the conversation, but wanted to comment on Wendy Alsup’s blog.
The issues she discusses are a great start and I admire Driscoll that he has a female deacon (which I believe has ample biblical support).
Perhaps Alsup has discussed this in the past, but I believe many women older in the faith don’t realize that they are the role models for those women new in the faith.
Titus 2:3-5 says:
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
To give a little cultural background, my study Bible says that Paul wrote this letter to Titus (a gentile convert) who lived and ministered in Crete. Crete, like most of Europe, had fallen under various rules and kingdoms, but during Titus’ time, was Greek in rule and culture. The Cretans were known for their “dishonesty, gluttony and laziness”. Sounds a little like our culture.
That Paul admonishes Titus to teach attitudes and behavior to believers is something we might not accept today, and perhaps that is why older women believers are circumspect in offering input and suggestions to younger women in the faith. In fact, I’ve seen this kind of input met with absolute and anger and disdain.
It’s interesting, too, to note that Paul encourages Titus to teach the women to not be gossips, drinkers and to love their husbands and children. What that means, to me, is that women, even in a regenerate state, were not given to these things by nature, especially in Cretan culture. What Paul was telling Titus, I believe, is that to live as Christ in that culture translated into these behaviors and attitudes for women, which were not natural.
Paul goes so far as to imply that these wrong behaviors and attitudes by women would malign the Word of God. Hmmmm…those are some pretty strong words.
I believe our culture is resistant to anyone suggesting to anyone else a change in deportment or attitude.
I see this especially evident in working women who condescend to women who have chosen to work at home and to devote themselves entirely to their families. I say this having been a manager in a high tech corporation. I know of what I speak. Let me repeat, there is disdain amongst women who work outside the home for those who work at home. I say this as a woman whose mother disdains my choices, saying that she didn’t raise a “house frau”. I realize these are loaded words, but I have found them to be true in my life on both sides of the work “boundary”.
I believe there needs to be honest discussion about what Paul says to Titus about married women with children amongst women. I hope Wendy Alsup takes up this discussion as it is needed in our culture.
Carson’s 5 trends are a must read! BTW he is speaking up here at Western Seminary Oct 14th. I will have a front row seat!
An addendum to my post….there is disdain among women who work at home for those who work, too.
When I attended BSF years ago (as a young mother), I enjoyed attending the evening classes because I found the women interesting….they dared to talk about things beyond their children. After my seond child, I had a seizure that was “non=conclusive” and the doc told me I couldn’t drive for 4 years! I’m find now, but then I walked and took the bus everywhere (stroller in tow) and I had to attend daytime BSF classes because the buses here have a more regular schedule during the day. Daytime class conversations focussed on children, husbands, homes and the accompanying “competition” amongst women. It wasn’t long after that that I stopped attending BSF.
Now I’ve really thrown down the gauntlet
Sorry for killing the thread….
Thank you again, BrianD for doing this for us. It seems to me that with all the reading you do, that you could work for a an elected official “vetting” all the information out there for him/her and giving a brief analysis.
thanks for the link, brian…
holy cow!….this list just about covers 89% of everything on the internet.
great links though…thanks!
Linnea has earned a hearing on every thread IMO - never, never a thread killer. She speaks Christ.
Amen?
Ps62 -
Amen.
The one thing I noticed about the 100 largest and fastest growing churches is that very few (only one…heretic Casey Treat) of them are in the NW.
There are very few mega-churches here in Oregon and Washington and this is a very difficult place to plant churches, most of them fail.
Interesting from the 100 fastest/biggest lists:
11 Calvary’s on the largest church list, but 0 on the fastest growing list.
Shaun there is one CC on that list.
Ryan,
I was first told of the difficulties in churches and church planting in the NW years ago. Just before I moved here, The Sacramento Bee published a demographic study on church attendance . The farther north from SacTown you were, the less of the population attends church, particularly east of the Cascades.
Centy
East of the Cascades = Hunting, fishing, skiing come before church.
I was a pastor at a church 4 miles from Madras, Oregon, and the same was true in the 70’s.
Shaun…that is interesting isn’t it.
As BrianD said there is one CC on the fastest growing list…hmm wonder who that is
Bob and Centy…yep
I wonder how many of these 100 largest churches are multi-site as oppose to meeting under one roof?
ryan and BrianD - how did I miss that!!!
I find it odd that Calvary Chapel Cheyenne is not on that list - why in the last month alone my waistline has grown by almost 2 inches - literally bursting at the seems.
A one time CC pastor, the 5th fastest growing congregation in the country:
The Rock Church San Diego, CA Pastor: Miles McPherson
I wasn’t sure about Miles, the name sounded familiar, so I searched his site and didn’t see a dove anywhere. Do you know why he is not a Calvary now (if it is bad news I don’t really want to know)?
I have no ideal. He used to be on staff at Horizon………..
Miles was Mike Mac’s college guy…the ministry got so huge that Mike told him to go do his own thing.
I don’t think there is any need for him to be CC.
we play him on our local CSN I think.
Maybe he is like me, wasn’t sure it was worth doing all the paperwork just to get a dove…
Last month the Sophian, Smith College’s student newspaper, published an op-ed titled ” ‘I Will Follow Him’: Obama as My Personal Jesus,” by Maggie Mertens:
Then I began to realize I wasn’t the only one trying to buy a WWOD bracelet and spending my weekends scouring CNN.com. The rock star-type love for Obama wasn’t just because he was pretty and in the media. Others too, had seen him as a shining light, heard that mythical voice boom out over the mountaintops; people were wearing the t-shirt because they would rather wear something representing a politician than a pop star. People everywhere, young and old, were caring again. So what’s the problem here?
I’ve officially been saved, and soon, whether they like it or not, the rest of the country will be too. I will follow him, all the way to the White House, and I’ll be standing there in our nation’s capital in January 2009, when Barack Obama is inaugurated as the 44th president of the United States of America. In the name of Obama, Amen.
Yikes, is she serious? It’s hard to tell, as evidenced by the reader comments. This one is typical:
Um…whoa. I hope this is a parody. If it is, brilliant. If it isn’t, I just don’t know what to say except that your conception of the appropriate place of government and politicians in our lives appears to have reverted 2000 years. You can agree with his policy prescriptions, as I do, but the confluence of political and emotional power that you brainlessly seek to hand over to Obama borders on religious fanatacism.
Another comment comes from someone claiming–falsely, we’re pretty sure–to be Little Peggy March, who in 1963, at age 15, recorded the gospel tune “I Will Follow Him,” which turned into a chart-topping hit.
Someone, though, has produced a YouTube video with an army of Little Peggy Marches singing hymns to Obama. Sample lyrics:
We’re gonna spread happiness
We’re gonna spread freedom
Obama’s gonna change it
Obama’s gonna lead ‘em
We’re gonna change it
And rearrange it
We’re gonna change the world
Here’s a terrifying thought: 30 or 40 years from now, these kids will be old enough to actually run things.
-James Toranto
of interest to some of you………….
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php?p=1225&more=1&c=1
And of course WS’s talk at the Murietta conference is now part of his bio. Great…
If I understand this correctly, it appears that LHT is now marketing the speech that Smith gave at the SPC. Am I reading this correctly, or am I missing something?
Do they have the rights to duplicate it? That would be interesting.
When I was on staff with a nationally recognized Christian author & speaker, we tried to get a recording of his that he gave at a Promise Keepers event for broadcast - and we were told no, because PK owned the copyright on the recording, even though the content was owned by the speaker.
Maybe it just varies depending on the individual contract.
Centy
Have you ordered your copy yet?
I have a copy of the entire conference. It came with the price of admission.
I had a more moderate view on Smith’s presentation. There was some good information, but he made some inferences that were unsubstantiated. There were one or two areas in which I would have loved to have discussed with him as I believe he cannot build a solid biblical case for.
I thought Warren’s teaching at the SPC was miserable. By far the worst session of the whole conference. I should have gone to a movie…
I have to say, the reactions to Smith’s presentation was interesting. While a few gave him a standing ovation, most of the guys I spoke with agreed with shaun.
In regards to Miles McPerson and why is he not a CC…could it have anything to do with the “5 mile” rule. Our old pastor said he himself (not Miles) got “kicked out” of CC affiliation because he was going to rent a church property within 5 miles of another CC.
I thought that was sure strange. Guess we are not all on the same team? Miles has had several different locations in the past years.
Mrs. TDoS -
I’ve got mixed feelings over the distance thing (I’ve heard everything from 3-8 miles). But doesn’t the analogy also work the other way? Since we’re all on the same team, shouldn’t we play in different positions to maximize our effectiveness?
Tim,
That’s actually a CC rule? No other CC’s within xx of one another?
Interesting. The intent I assume is to keep from detracting from another church?
Dan Edelen’s article is kind of depressing. It doesn’t seem to offer any hope for those of us who are in that group of hardworking people who can’t get ahead.
TonyP -
I’m not sure it’s a hard & fast “rule”…in SoCal & Florida, there are CC’s on top of one another. But I think the SoCal situation is what contributes to the general idea. I know in some areas, they won’t affiliate new churches who are too close to existing CC’s. That obviously doesn’t stop them from planting a church where-ever they feel called…but it would prevent them from coming under the CC banner.
One of the west coast guys would probably be better suited to answer the question…the closest CC plant to us is 40 miles away & the closest CC affiliate is 70 miles away. We’re not exactly in the same boat as the other guys.
TonyP -
And to actually answer your question (sorry!) - yes, you’re correct. The idea is that if there is already a church in the immediate area with the same doctrine, methodology, etc., as your own, why not simply combine into one church?
Tim,
Don’t apologize for expounding, I prefer more info to not enough.
Hey everyone.
Hey BrianD
Hey Tim.
Still thinking about Jim’s comments from early this morning.
Also thinking about the pastors and authors we hear and read, and what kind of people they may or may not be.
I listened to Steve Brown’s “Grace in the Church” downloadable from Reformed Theological Seminary in iTunes. He was talking about Bakker and Swaggart. Brown said he was there when Swaggart infamously threw the glass of water in Carman’s face, and said Swaggart was full of anger towards sinners, Reformed people and anyone he disagreed with. And that he thought God just got fed up with Swaggart and his anger towards everyone, and that’s why he fell.
All that, yet God STILL used the guy to preach the gospel and lead people to the Lord.
Pastors we respect are friends and comrades with pastors we don’t…respect as much.
I do not recall the question ever being asked if a man or woman’s lack of character, in so far as how they treat the sheep, how power-hungry they are, etc. can disqualify them from being someone we learn from.
Maybe we ought to ask the question.
BrianD -
I think that question is actually crucial to the determination of one’s call as a elder/bishop:
1 Timothy 3:2-6
2. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3. not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4. one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5. (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6. not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
It seems to me the vast majority of the above deals with a person’s character.
Good point Tim.
Let me clarify what I meant in my last post:
I’ve never heard the question asked if someone’s lack of character, greed, abuse, etc. disqualifies them from selling books/CDs/mp3s/tapes with their teaching material, or writing books with their teaching material, for the Christian consumer market. And if we as consumers need to use judgment in whose teachings we consum–
Wait. I have heard that before. About the word/faith and prosperity teachers.
But never about those whose theology is considered to be “sound doctrine”.
Thought I should put this up here.
“What is the Destiny of the Unevangelized?
Join Rob Bowman Jr. and C. Michael Patton tonight at 7pm EST to discuss this important issue.
Surveys are clearly showing a shift in people’s belief about the population of heaven. There is a shift toward inclusivism in our culture. This is the belief that knowledge of Christ is not necessary for salvation. Even some Evangelical scholars are expressing doubt about the necessity of hearing the Gospel.
What should we believe about this issue?
Come discuss this with us in our live voice room tonight.”
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/10/converse-with-scholars-tonight/
Linnea, I’m the thread killer
Tim,
You don’t think that applies to pastors do you??
It quite clearly states “bishops”.
Issues with temper have been a constant in my life, nothing drastic or abusive, but I CAN have a short temper at times. Does that remove me from the qualified list? Does truly working on issues of character count i.e. repentance, or does a lack of perfection to those standards mean removal? Does one wife mean EVER or at a time? Does justified (biblically) divorce count against him if he remarries? These are things that have split churches (the one I used to attend is one).
BrianD,
Poor thread
BrianD -
Should a Christian take a teacher’s character into consideration when deciding whether or not to learn from him? Like many things, I think the answer is “it depends.”
I’d want to ask myself several questions before plopping down $8.99 for the book:
(1) What is the character of the person now, as opposed to whenever an incident occurred? Has there been repentance?
(2) Was the incident a clear cut instance of wrongdoing? Or is there an allowance of misunderstanding?
(3) Does the blame “stick” to the teacher? I.e., was it something that permanently will get in the way of receiving otherwise sound teaching?
If we demand perfect behavior from our teachers, than the only words we can truly read are in red. Otherwise, we accept the premise that we are all perfect sinners perfectly made righteous by the perfect Savior.
The example has been well set forth here in the past of Martin Luther, who wrote some truly horrific things about the Jews in the later part of his life - yet God used him tremendously for the gospel…and the church continues to be grateful for his influence today. Why? I believe because the overall picture of his life is one of reliance on the grace of Christ Jesus.
Can the same be said of CJM, or SH, or whomever else? Probably only time will tell. Until then, I think we have to follow our consciences and the leading of the Holy Spirit on the matter as we look at each case individually.
One more thought on this.
Sometimes I think we automatically equate “ability to teach” with “calling to serve as a pastor/teacher.” We shouldn’t confuse the two. A pastor/teacher should definitely have the ability to teach, but many who have the ability to teach aren’t called…or they’ve forfeited their calling.
Thus I can (on a case-by-case basis) receive teaching from someone who has the smarts & skill. But that doesn’t mean I need to submit myself to his ‘authority’ as a pastor.
Tim - I see what you mean (about the church proximity deal)…I know the problem at our old church was simply a matter of finding the right building and when he did…it was too close to a CC that was not doing well.
That pastor didnt get the building anyway -
Tim,
Well said. On both counts.
Mrs. TDoS,
yep, that was an interesting story……………..
The CC “ten mile” rule has exceptions. If you’re in an urban area with a large concentration of people then you can have multiple CC churches in one city or area. Or if you’re in a less urban area where there are two distinct cities that are not 10 miles apart.
However if you’re in a rural area (like mine) and there are only 25,000 people in our entire county then it doesn’t make much sense to have multiple CC churches in one city. There are CC affiliates in every city in our area (Central Oregon) but each of the towns (besides Bend) have small populations so they would only allow one affiliate in each city.
Man the ESV study Bible looks awesome! How do you pre-order them?
Patrick…are you out there? God put you on my heart yesterday and today…how are you doing?
Here’s a place that one of you young Calvary Church planters ought to check out, and you could have the whole county to yourself…
http://www.creede.com/
It’s the head waters of the Rio Grande and golden waters for fly fishing and has a large artist population. We met Christians there who drive 2 hours for a church on Sunday.
anyone home?
Hi Dusty
hi Linnea,
Ok, I have to confess…I’m listening to the debate while I finish up some chores…
I’m happy for Sarah Palin. I’ll leave it at that.
Good night Dusty and Linnea!!
This is interesting…the pundits say that Palin did better with men than with women, but that the campaign is fishing for women’s votes.
I just want to know if you guys mind if I call you “Joe 6-Pack”
hi everyone
Tim, thanks for your post at 2:49 - it’s a good help to me on this issue.
I think Hirsch’ take on fundamentalism is as rediculous as those who attack the Emerging church, Liberal church, et al. Take on particular ideals or theological perspectives of individual churches, denominations or even teachers. But to label and toss out a whole group, is lazy, rediculous, and dangerous. It goes beyond Judging anothers servant, and steps down into the pit with the ODM’s.
Do I like much of what Fundamentalism stands for, probably, I find the more i look at different groups, we have other terms for the same thing and have the same outcome desired, reaching people for Jesus Christ and sharing the Gospel.
And Palin and Biden both did an awesome job. I am so excited for this election, Love Biden and Obama, but more certain about my vote for McCain and Palin then ever after hearing her speak for herself.
Gov. Palin did much better then many expected, I actually expected her to do well. Sen. Biden did something that no preacher, sermon etc has been able to do for literally years, He made me cry, at first I was completely disgusted with myself even being alone I try not to fall into any type of emotionalism, what so ever. But when he talked about the situation with his family I was broken I remember that kitchen table. I knew Gov. Palin’s record as gov, of Alaska, and was not really surprised with Sen. McCain chose her. She is a very very quick study, I mean five weeks, that is amazing.
I will admit to stumbling in this area, I have great hope in this election for change, I know I should not, but I do. We need it. In my early Christian days I was taught to loath, deeply loath, with contempt and malice those that disagreed with me. I could not bring myself to loath any of these fine people running. I cant even bring myself to loath Pres. Bush or even Vice Pres Cheney. I dont see them as Jesuit dupes controlled by the Skull and Bones or the Bilderbergers or even the Grays, Nordics or other alien folks wondering the land scape, or maybe those are fallen Angels.
I find myself feeling great empathy for these people, knowing I could not do what they do, I know that makes me weak and in some sense evil or controlled by the evil one as a Christian should be definitive and always know, always. Some may wonder about what I write but this is just so common in the world I ran it, though I no longer thank you to God. It is just so hard to hate people, a character flaw on my part, but I cant bring myself to do it.
Just posted this chapter in my ongoing Friday series of the charismatic movement at FTA. This week, part 1 of our discussion of William Branham.
http://fromtheashesblog.com/?p=1175
I met some folks that swore up and down about Mr. Branham, they were very interesting. Some of the folks were all living on some compound in the middle of no where waiting for y2k to take the rest of us “heathen” out. As I understood it though I dont thing they claimed an “association” with Mr. Branham. I am not a big believer in magic myself, there have been way to many times I have prayed begged wept etc for deliverance for folks. Nothing ever happened, except a quit grace that seem to permeate many of these circumstances in such a wondrous way. The few times I have sought to bring this up in the faith community I was given the basic line, Im of Satan, deceived, on my way to hell, evil, lost, manipulator, etc.
Back when the net was young I often read and in some very small ways interacted with “fringe” groups. Irc firetalk, paltalk, Usenet, and before that the BBS networks I E fidonet and local echoes. I cant express the great heart ache I had for many of these fine people. I remember even having a brief encounter with some of the heaven’s gate stuff, though not the people, back in the day. Often the response in the “Faith” was one of indifference or basically, those idiots had it coming because they were deceived bla bla. OK I admit this is a weakness of mine I cant seem to switch these people off, I have tried, but I keep running into them. I still remember getting physically sick when the people’s temple stuff happened I was young then.
I will admit this, and it may very well make me a heretic, but I think each creation of God, each and every soul is redeemable and has an infinite worth. I know that sounds a bit childish and even asinine given the response I have gotten in the real world, and on line.
Testing…I had 2 comments disappear on the TGIF thread.
Sorry about that, TIm.
Thanks BrianD!
are you sure this is a link to Wendy Alsups blog? It seems that this Wendy is from Grace church seattle. Good blog though