Tom Stipe is the pastor of Crossroads Church in Denver CO.
He has an incredible resume, having been a vital part of the birth of both the Calvary Chapel and Vineyard movements.
He and his wife Maryellen have been used of God for over thirty years to minister the saving, healing grace of Jesus Christ all over the world.
We in the PP family are honored to call them friends in the truest sense of the word.
I asked Tom for a few minutes to talk about "The Shack" and why he invited Paul Young to speak at his church.
You will hear the heart of a true pastor in his answers…
PP: Why Paul Young and why now?
TS: I initially read The Shack after my friend Bill Ritchie recommended it to me. I have always been interested in ways that the arts, music and literature can be used to present the truths of the Gospel, so I was intrigued to read the novel that my friend was enthused about.
I was not disappointed; in fact I was also captivated by the writer’s easy style and profound content and found the book hard to put down. As a singer and songwriter for years I had found that story songs were the most effective way for me to communicate my faith when performing in public. So, it was not surprising that The Shack held a special appeal for me. It captured my attention because I immediately recognized its value as a modern day parable.
If someone were to ask me to draw a picture of the Trinity I would not know where to begin. Yet, Paul Young in The Shack presented through words an open door to me that allowed me to think about what it might be like to be behind the proverbial veil where God can be approached an interacted with. The idea of having a weekend retreat with the Trinity with all my own questions, doubts, frustrations and fears was frightening, intriguing and entertaining all at the same time.
I enjoyed what I experienced as I was challenged and encouraged by the content of The Shack. I wanted the people of my church to have a chance to share the experience and as Bill had done to me, I suggested that many of them read the novel.
The idea of having William Paul Young as a speaker to our congregation came as I heard over and over again how the book was being used as a catalyst for deep personal ministry in many individual’s lives. One day after hearing of yet another person who was ministered to by the book I decided to pick up the phone and find out a little more about Mr. Young. Paul Young was unexpectedly accessible and it did not take long to become better acquainted with the man behind the book.
I was amazed to hear the background and context of The Shack, the story behind the story was an equally edifying account of the work of God. As I was blessed by knowing Young I wanted more people to hear the story behind the story in this extraordinary man’s life. From years of experience I know the value behind a well chosen personal testimony in church life and so I invited Paul Young to come and share his at our church.
PP: What was the response in your church?
TS: First I want to clarify that I asked Paul Young to come and talk about his book and give his testimony, which he did. I did not ask him to bring a bible study or a lecture. I was reminded of the Jesus Movement days when we would have people tell their stories during the worship service and people would be deeply moved by personal testimonies.
After Paul shared his vivid story in our church it triggered a unique and profound time of ministry of the Holy Spirit accompanied by prayer. As the service was drawing to a close we invited anyone who desired to receive more ministry to stay a little longer and be prayed for.
When the service was dismissed a few people filed out but a majority of the people chose to stay and it took only minutes before God began working in our midst. Without any prompting on our part—everywhere in the room members of our congregation gathered in clusters and began to pray. People confessed their sins to God and then one another, parents and children began reconciliation before our very eyes and individuals were asking forgiveness of one another as ministry erupted throughout the sanctuary.
The prayers of these small groups of participants were spontaneous and unstoppable and the gentle weeping that hit more than a few was like a cleansing flood for lamenting souls. The type and degree of ministry of the Holy Spirit that we experienced after that service does not come around very often–quite frankly–if that wasn’t church, it’ll do ‘til church comes along.
In the days that have followed Paul’s testimony there has continued to be a good response from the people of our church. Our counseling center at Crossroads has been swamped as people have continued to come to release their pain, bitterness and unforgiveness and renew their trust in Jesus. The spiritual fruit of that Sunday service has been phenomenal and ongoing.
PP: Why is this book so popular? What nerve is Young hitting?
TS: I think that there are probably at least a couple of reasons why Paul’s book has been so successful. First, I think The Shack presents intimacy with God in a relatable fashion and the average “Joe or Jane” is hungry for God. It is just my opinion, but I think modern day Evangelicalism has had limited success in presenting– God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit—“as real and approachable” in terms of personal relationship. Paul Young’s story of Mack who gets to know God up close and personal renews the faith of many who have always hoped that closeness with God would actually be possible.
Second, I also think we have failed in many ways to adequately answer some of the tough and often repeated hard questions people have. Questions such as, “Why does God let bad things happen to good people?” That oft asked question is a major theme of The Shack. Those of us who are in the ministry have probably all given oversimplistic answers to this question and all too often we have given them to people who were in true anguish and personal pain. We have been guilty in many cases of failing to point out that; Romans 8:28 is a process and not a quick fix and The Shack patiently and emphatically points that out.
Evangelicals and Charismatics alike in the Body of Christ tend to be quick to heap guilt upon the grief-stricken. The list of benefits that come from suffering come profusely and routinely from our lips without understanding, explaining or allowing for the comfort that can come from pouring out one’s heart in lament before God. We imply to hurting individuals that if they really trusted God they wouldn’t be sad in the midst of some personal tragedy. We provide the head knowledge of should’s and ought’s that fuel the guilt residing in people who are unable to reach God’s standards by themselves.
The Shack is popular because the “everyman” in our society knows that their only chance at heaven is through a God that loves them, a lot, and is willing to hear their pain. The Shack strikes a nerve for anyone who has ever been angry at God, angry at themselves or hopelessly angry at a perpetrator and incapable of finding their way out of the maze of unforgiveness. Paul Young, through this short novel that reeks of genuine love–while not flinching at depravity–sheds light on the path to true forgiveness through Jesus Christ and that is something this world longs for.
PP: Have you had opposition, if so why?
TS: Yes, we have received a few negative emails in response to our recommendation of The Shack. In our case they have been for the most part, sent from people who can’t get past the image of God as a large black woman. We are patiently answering each one of these individually.
In response to this criticism, we explain the use of metaphor and symbolism in the Bible to illustrate the vast character of God. God appeared to Moses as a burning bush but is not, in actuality, a plant. Jesus Himself uses the image of chicks under the protection of His wings but God is not a mother hen. Jesus is not a lion from a town named Judah but the title and symbolism is often used among Christians.
Along another vein, none of us will ever meet the “Good Samaritan” in heaven because he is not real, he was a character invented by Jesus. He was part of a parable, that is, a story that contains truth but in and of it self, may never have happened. Anyway, you get the idea. The opposition is just part of the healthy dialogue that has exploded in our church as people learn more about their Bible and its imagery and the closeness of God.
People in the aftermath of such conversation are better equipped as they seek a more intimate and real relationship with God through Jesus Christ. There has been no evidence of pagan idolatry in our church and most of the people who have read The Shack now know and understand what a Christian fiction novel is.
PP: Why are we so afraid?
TS: As Christians we do not form our corporate identity in a void. We come mostly from a group, movement, denomination, sect, Para church organization or alma mater. It is how vigorously that group defines itself or how uniquely distinctive it sees itself from others in the body of Christ that creates the parameters where fear is found. When the theological, philosophical and historic tenants of a group or movement are strictly outlined and reinforced, fear of the “outsider” becomes more prevalent and drawn attention to.
Some then are afraid when God blesses others outside their perceived boundaries. We are naturally afraid of diversity and are down right paranoid if said outsider is successful. The problem with all of that is that Paul the Apostle said that there would be diversities of ministries and Jesus said they will know us by our love for one another not how distinct we are from each another.
PP: What are a couple things you feel are most important to pass on to the men you are mentoring as pastors?
TS: One important message to the men I’m in dialogue with is, “Just say no!” to self-righteousness. Jesus introduces the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector with these words, “Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others.” Luke 18:9 NKJV
The subtlety of the mindset that says “Thank you God I’m not like other men” is dangerous and life altering. When someone can expound about how glad they are –not to be like that sinner over there, or that extortioner, or that unjust one, or that Purpose Driven Pastor or whatever–they are on dangerous ground. Humility is still the coin of the realm when it comes to ministry.
PP: Name the three most influential voices in forming your faith.
TS: The first book I laid my hands on after conversion was Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. I read it over and over and realized that you could think and still be a Christian. Then I read the Chronicles of Narnia, by Lewis and realized you could keep your imagination and still be a Christian artist and author and I was both. In the process I also unfortunately went to my local old school denominational church and found out you weren’t to believe any of the above and the tension that was created began the environment that I have lived most of my Christian life under.
The writings of Spurgeon were a second great influence on my life. His stories of youthful entry into difficult ministry challenges gave me hope. I read my story into his and prayed I could be used as he was.
Finally, Chuck Smith was the man with the critical timing in my life that recognized my call and gave me the opportunity to preach during the early moments of the Jesus Movement. My values, priorities and practices were formed in the cauldron of Bible exposition, evangelism, music ministry and preaching the radical Jesus that Chuck advocated. What were Pastor Chuck’s most memorable words to me? He was blunt and pragmatic, and said “Just go and do what God is calling you to do.”
Tom,
Thank you for blessing us with your insights. I especially appreciate this line: “Jesus said they will know us by our love for one another not how distinct we are from each another.” God bless you, MaryEllen, your family and congregation.
Michael, Thank you for the interview!
Tom, Thank you for your thoughts about The Shack. I too was deeply moved by the book. And bless you for your words, “Just say no!” to self-righteousness.”, to those you mentor. I really hope that someday our paths will cross.
that was too brief. good questions, great responses…thanks.
I SO have to read this book, if for no other reason but to see what all the fuss is about.. I appreciate his comments on how we are group idealized and afraid of other denominations/groups. I believe we had a discussion about that not too long ago?? Great questions Michael.
Tom,
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. Excellent thoughts! You know, unfortunately because of all of the attacks against the book by those who were concerned that every loose theological end was tightly crimped, I think we have spent so much time defending the book or our recommendation of the book, that we really haven’t spent much time exploring the very concepts that the book presents to us–the parts of the book that actually speak to people when they read it. Why is the book changing the lives of people who read it?
You mentioned the personal relationship with the Lord we can have that the book lets us get a glimpse of, is absolutely radical. This is what has made so many of us weep as we read through the book. We so long to really know the Lord, and yet we have created an image of God that is so formiddable that we can’t penetrate it. I know for myself I realized reading while the book that I had lost that friendship type of relationship with the Lord somewhere along the way. I approached God daily in prayer, but not continually like you would if you were sitting in the living room with your best friend. The Lord calls us His friends, and such we are, yet I had become so burdened down by my sins and failures that I sort of approached God cautiously and rarely because it was easier since I knew I would have sin to confess and I would feel unworthy. The book made me realize that though God is holy and just, just as the scriptures state, that He loves us greatly and wants us to relate to Him also as a friend, and in almost a casual sense, kind of like you do with your best friend. My relationship with God had become way too formal, formiddable, and stale. It was almost like God was mainly a taskmaster or judge, even though I knew of His love for me.
The second thing I’ll mention about what you bring up is the whole area of forgiving others and letting go of bitterness held toward God and others. The book brings out so clearly how we as people tend to resolve these sorts of issues in the wrong sort of way. We often don’t really forgive from the heart, instead we sort of try to ignore our feelings, avoid the things that hurt, and act like we really aren’t hurt by others. Yet, that bitterness continues to grow, and sometimes even expresses itself when we least expect it. In my own life, I realized in chapter 12 that I still was carrying around a bunch of bitterness towards others that was weighing me down and I had become somewhat disfunctional because of not really bringing that bitterness to the Lord and letting Him remove it from me. Every one of us is carrying around a bunch of baggage from our past that is burdening us down. I have been considering writing a novel that chronicles the consequences of carrying around bitterness and unforgiveness in our lives, and I could use a personal example for this novel from a close personal example from my life (not myself but someone very close to me). Bitterness and unforgiveness, unless it is brought to the Lord and healed, will eventually lead to total mental breakdown and the disintegration of personality.
Chapter 12 of the book was my undoing and caused me to feel such a gamit of emotions that I had to put the book down for a whole day. I knew I had to finally get to the root of my bitterness and unforgiveness and let God, the vinedresser, dig that whole plant right out of the garden, or it would destroy me.
There is more that I could comment on, but I think it would be good for us to forget trying to justify the book or author any further and simply deal with the issues that are brought up in the book which affect our personal relationship with God and our spiritual and emotional health as believers in Christ.
Thanks again Tom!
JimB
First of all, Michael, thanks for taking the time to interview Tom on this topic.
Tom, thank you for listening to the Lord in your ministry. Thank you for your transparency and for hitting the nail on the head regarding what the “average” Joe or Jane needs to know and feel to have a relationship with God through Jesus.
We spend lots of time parsing doctrine, criticizing others and staking out our theological ground. The bottom line, though, is God is love (1 John 4:8) and every person needs love.
A long time ago, when I was teaching Hebrews and struggling with the initial stages of diabetes, God showed me that love is like insulin….it allows the nutrition to enter the cell instead floating needlessly in the bloodstream. Jesus is like insulin…he ushers us into God’s love. Love, like blood sugar, no longer has to bounce off the cell wall, hopelessly floating around the body. Through Jesus, love enters our very souls.
Paul Young shows us a God who loves us and ministers to us at a personal level. He shows us a God who cares enough about us to take the time to show us love we will understand.
Thank you, Tom, for expressing your thought process, the Holy Spirit’s ministry at Crossroads and the lasting effects of coming into contact with a God who loves us individually.
Did anyone else find that the book created a jealousy in them? I loved the book and felt like I had a better understanding of the grace of God. It changed the way I thought about sin - in that I stop thinking and worrying about sin, and instead sought God. However, within a few weeks I found myself mildly jealous that I don’t get to sit down with God in the setting that Mack did. I even began to get a little disturbed as I prayed because I was waiting for those clear audible answers that Mack enjoyed.
I wanted more of God!!!
I’m excited that I could read this interview. It answered many of the questions I didn’t get the chance to ask Tom at the PacNW pastor’s conference.
Great interview Michael!
I had the opportunity to sit down with Tom at the NWPC and what a blessing it was. Tom is the real deal and a man who despite his long history with CC isn’t willing to overlook our weaknesses to keep his colleagues happy.
Good for you Tom!
Our loyalty is ultimately to Jesus as we will answer to Him and no man.
I still haven’t read The Shack but I plan to…
“PP: Why are we so afraid?”
If I might suggest…many of us who did not like or agree with the book did not do so out of fear, but because we disagree with Young’s theology. That was kind of a loaded question.
I read the book about a year ago and as an artist appreciated the manner in which the trinity was presented. I was not particularly moved by the book but appreciated what Yo8ung did in tackling on of Christian’s great stumbling blocks–forgiveness or should I say harbored unforgiveness.
Good interview, Great response by Tom
Tim…your opposition to the book was not fear and probably never came off as such.
However…for those that have never read the book and are railing against it because of some “discernment ministry” then their opposition seems rooted in fear.
Those that oppose the book as if it’s actually going to lead people into the occult and witchcraft come off as fearful because of their paranoia.
should have read…
“your opposition to the book was not motivated by fear.”
Thanks Tom and Michael
Good insights and I hope it shakes a few out of their narrow limited view of the Body of Christ..
I know this blog has shown me the Body of Christ is bigger wider and deeper and higher than I ever knew in my limited CC view of Christianity.
If I have any fear, it is the fear that those in any group or denomination only know what is inside the fence that their movement has created. I knew there was fence in CC even from the start, but the room inside that fence was large and the fence was not very high, but as time went by I saw the fence moved and made higher, and over time is became more higher and narrower until I found myself on the wrong side of their fence. I didn’t change, they simply moved the fence to where I no longer felt at home.
It’s pretty nice outside the fence.. Never did like fences or not trespassing signs. Even as a kid, a No Trespassing sign was just an invitation to at the very least gaze over the fence, if not climb over it, and see what was there that was so special that someone didn’t want me in there.
When God puts up a No Trespassing sign, I know better than to mess with it, but when Man puts up a fence and a sign, I feel driven to jump the fence.
john duncan
i remember the early days with Tom speaking on Saturday nights. He was annointed them, and he is annointed now.
Tom Stipe is the man. The only beef I have with him is that he rides Harley Junk and thinks he can be self-righteous about.
Any thinking, Spirit-filled man of God should quickly acknowledge the superior technology and efficiency of the four cylinder, two-wheeled dynamos imported from across the Pacific.
No offense.
Tom,
We’ll know we are maturing when you don’t have to offer a defense for liking a book or an individual. I hate the fact that you can’t say you like a work of art without it defining you to some very vocal people. The result is, I can still enjoy movies, music, tv shows, and books, but I dare not recommend them publicly, because the obligatory explanations are just too much trouble. It is sick and sad.
Great observations already this morning!
Now you all know why Tom should write some books…
Shaun:
I did love the book’s emphasis on grace rather than sin. We, in the church are so concerned with what Dallas Willard refers to as “sin management” in his book The Divine Conspiracy.
That book also gives an incredible view of grace in action.
Tim,
I honestly didn’t mean for it to be a loaded question in that sense.
I completely respect your reasons for not endorsing the book and appreciate the way you’ve spoken regarding it.
Dave,
Between Jerry Lee and The Shack I am now a mature elder statesman of the cloth.
Michael,
Isn’t it crazy that liking a singer or a story will get you branded?
Next it will be if you like vegetables you are a New Ager.
Dave,
This whole conversation around “The Shack” has made me aware of how inclined I’ve been to label people along the same lines.
It was difficult to endorse “The Shack” because the peer group I want to impress hates it.
Jerry isn’t real popular in Christian circles either…
If I’ve learned anything it’s that I want and need a lot of grace and have to be ready to give it and to hear the hearts of people whose tastes and affections may be different than my own…while still affirming those fundamental truths we hold dear.
A note to my fellow bloggers;
Feel free to lift this interview for your own blogs.
I want Tom’s heart heard in as many places as possible.
Ryan already has…
Thanks, Michael…blessings to you.
Right on Dave!
Bryonm, be careful using the name Dallas Willard, he’s a friend of Richard Foster. You know where that will land you in some circles.
I was mountain biking once,
hit a rock,
went over my handle bars
flew thru the air
crashed into a tree
my arms wrapped around a tree in bear hug position.
the logic:
Since most tree huggers are new-agers and pantheists.
Due to my accident does that make me one of them…?
Truth and tradition.
I have heard it said that tradition gives the dead a vote, and we should not disregard it lightly. But I would add that Tradition cannot be given the majority vote.
The Jewish Traditions were based on a line that God drew, on a boundary that God had set. But in their fear of people being to dumb to understand the boundary/fence that God put up, the built their own fence of traditions, to keep people as far from the true boundary/fence as possible. God had told the Jews the keep the Sabbath, and then the Rabbinical Judaism of the days of Christ added hundreds of traditions/rules around that simple mandate, until the held their traditions crowded out the Truth, and were more dear to them than the truth of God’s Word. Until a day came when Jesus had to say Mt 15:3* Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Now it is pretty common the break the command to love one another by our sacred traditions.. I believe that if we become aware of a sacred cow in the church we are duty bound to kill it. That is a tradition we hold more dear than the Truth of the Word.
It seems to me the same kind of pressure in on many pastors today. They view their people as to dumb to think for themselves and then put up fences to keep their people for perceived danger, they draw their own line on what is sacred and what is profane based on their internal traditions. There are a great man sacred cows in every church. Things they adhere to blindly, and feel they must keep the people away from the True Boundary, so they will sweep aside anything that they don’t understand with a dogmatic stand, and become parrots for their movement.. If one leader starts to squawk heresy they all start squawking.
You know I have had my parrot since 1969. The only word he has ever learned to say is “What?”
I have always been hard of hearing, since once of my improvised explosive devices I used to make as a kid blew up in my face.
I once left him with a friend when we went on a vacation years ago, and her parrot had a huge vocabulary, and started to ask my parrot questions, to which my parrot said What? — so her parrot kept repeating the questions until it lost it’s cool and started just started squawking.
I wonder why they call hearing impaired people “Hard of Hearing” — We don’t call people who have to use reading glasses “Hard of seeing” or dumb people “Hard of Thinking” although I am all of the above.
And why is it far game to make fun of somehow who is Hard of Hearing. My own wife laughs as my disability, once my she told me she had a tickle cough, and I answered her ” why do you want to know if the Pickles are Hot, you don’t like Pickles”. She got laughing so hard that she couldn’t tell me what was so funny, and now she tells everyone that story, and they always laugh at me.
I bet some of you are laughing right now..
Every day my own parrots mocks me, because I will say good morning to him, to which he always says “What?”
But then again if you are hard of hearing, perhaps it is good to have a reminder around, so you will remember to ask what, instead of saying “the Pickles are not hot” and make a fool of yourself by jumping the the wrong conclusion.
I think that perhaps my parrot can teach us a lesson though, that we are all at times a bit hard of hearing, and we need to ask earnestly “what?” Then listen harder, and not jump to conclusions.
Michael I didn’t think you would mind
ryan,
It’s all good!
DMW,
These are brilliant observations and I hope the Lord gives us all ears to hear.
Bob Sweat:
Who’s Richard Foster and why should I care?
Dallas Willard is solid, orthodox, brilliant.
Have a nice day
KillingSC
You are correct in our need to listen better.
on a similar note…in line with Dave’s admission, or confession
,of liking movies, has jogged a thought. Has anyone ever seen the movie, written and produced by “pseudo-spiritual” Shyamalan, “THE VILLAGE”?
I too normally don’t recommend movies, however in light of the fears and control which often are used to manipulate the masses, I would say that this movie articulately portrays this dilemma. The movie is FULL of symbolism.
I had all our Elders watch it on a little weekend getaway, after which we talked thru it’s implications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E3ULCSxMvM
I read through the whole interview before I read any of the comments. Good job, and thanks to Tom Stipe for sharing his thoughts.
But I also reacted strongly to the “Why are we afraid” question. For me that created an us vs. them, right vs. wrong dynamic.
Piney,
Thanks and I will learn from this experience how to frame better questions.
The last thing that I want to do is marginalize those who have soberly thought through any issue and come to a different conclusion.
You and Tim both had sound reasoning behind your rejection of the book and while I disagree with you, I do respect both your conclusion and how you arrived at it.
Bryon
My earlier post was in jest. Richard Foster is a former Friends pastor most noted for writing the book Celebration of Discipline. He as a pastor back in the 70’s in the San Fernando Valley. Willard attended his church and they became good friends.
BTW, I agree with you. Willard is solid.
John, re: your 10:19: I AM laughing because I know Debbie!
Please tell her she is much loved and often prayed for.
Bryan S
The answer to your question “are you a tree hugger” the answer is yes!
FYI
I posted a set of questions on the Monday Morning Musings thread. Thought they were interesting
Is anyone other than me looking forward to and going to see the new Bill Maher movie? It should be interesting to see how the outside world looks at us. (not just the movie, but those in the audience.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26955359/
Help, my post is stuck - it has a link
http://www.theshiftmovie.com
Anyone heard about it?
Wow, great interview. Michael, you asked great questions and Tom came through with real answers… Tom Stipe for President!
(I am praying for you in regard to you motorcycle pride, you obviously have not ridden a VTX1800)
byronm,
Harley junK?? The Motor Company makes the best bikes in the world.
Why are we so afraid?? Been covered already, but that is such a loaded question…………
The only thing that I am afraid of is the present economy…It scares the H.E. double hockey sticks out of me
Relax Steve, Obama will fix everything. He’s a community organizer.
MLD…I don’t support idiots and I’m sure I’ll read all about how the world views Christians…I already have.
MLD -
No, I won’t go see it. Personally, I don’t think Bill Maher’s viewpoint is accurate of “the outside world”…cynical atheists maybe, but not the majority of the non-Christian world.
MLD,
I’m planning to see the Maher movie.
That makes 2 Lutherans.
Anyone else?
Lutheran,
We can go to one of those theaters that serve wine
byronm:
Who is Richard Foster? His book is considered a classic and having met the man a couple of times I found him to be a very humble gracious person.
mld,
thanks for the link….. I’ll probably go see this movie. It’s important to have understanding of the times so that we know what we ought to do. (1Chr 12:32)
ooh mld and lutheran…..I’ll go with you, but I’m driving
I won’t go see it simply because I don’t want to give them my money. As long as guys like Maher and other God haters can make money, they will continue to produce these types of movies
mld and lutheran…this question is sincere. Is it typical for Lutherans to be liberal politically?
I wonder if when it comes to “The Shack” the issue here is the inspiration of Scripture instead of our own personal images of God.
When God commanded no graven images even of Himself, the purpose would be so no one would say, “I imagine God to be…” or “I think God would be like…”.
So the Scripture in it’s Divine inspiration gives us several diffeent metaphors and anthropormophic pictures of God. As was mentioned a Lion, a fire, rushing wind, Bread, ect….
But to make up our own is very shaky to say the least and breaking the second commandment at the worst. “I think God would be” fill in the blank gives only a partial image of Who He is and thus can be more detrimental than useful.
In defense of CS Lewis, he was very careful to make Narnia another world, a parallel universe, so that He wasn’t as specific in saying “this is God”. And even his employing a lion as a representative in that other world was at least borrowing from Scripture.
A big black woman doesn’t even tip the hat in direction of Scripture. And having read the book, I concur with Mondok’s conclusion that the whole thing reminded me of the Oracle in the Matrix, of which the author mentions in the book. The Oracle just happened to be a prophet that was a black woman and baked cookies.
ryan,
I personally am pretty conservative. However, I don’t like what 25 yrs of the ‘Religious Right’ has done to our country and I won’t give them my vote just because I am a Christian.
Lutherans usually don’t draw lines politically. I think that on issues like same sex marriage and abortion we are pretty united - everything else is up for grabs and you follow your conscience.
Now, say that in some evangelical circles and you will be looked at with the ‘funny eye’.
It seems kind of counter to the discussion about “The Shack” and who catches hell for reading it, that you would associate going to see a Bill Maher movie with political liberalism.
baked cookies and smoked cigarettes….
I thought of the Oracle, too……
do you think most people understood what Lewis was saying? If so, is there really much difference?
You know, I think that God prohibited any man made images of Himself because He knew we’d get it wrong. We might get it partially right but that would make it even more frustrating and wrong.
He prohibited images because He knew He’d give us the perfect image- His Son. Col 1 tells us Jesus is the image of the invisible God. God says in effect, “You want a complete image. Here’s my Son. That’s it”. A high priest, an elder brother, a sacrificial lamb, ect ect…
I am not wild about Narnia. Not as much as I used to be. Especially as I’ve considered the implication of the second commandment even more. Maybe at least Lewis was careful in making it a realm out of this world. I dunno…
The Shack has caused me to mull these things over yet again. And I find any man made image of God partially right and maybe that makes it completely wrong.
And it does borrow from the Matrix.
I’m inclined to think “Why are we so afraid?” should be a stock question on any interview. It reveals more of the person’s thoughts, heart, and scope of perception than most other queries. I liked the question here, I like it anywhere, I like green eggs and ham.
pmf
PTI
You said,
I wonder if when it comes to “The Shack” the issue here is the inspiration of Scripture instead of our own personal images of God.
When God commanded no graven images even of Himself, …So the Scripture in it’s Divine inspiration gives us several diffeent metaphors and anthropormophic pictures of God…
But to make up our own is very shaky to say the least and breaking the second commandment at the worst.
Using your logic to imagine God in any form would be to make a graven image. I like you am protective of the scriptures and feel we need not mess with them but having said that, if has been our fear of making a graven image that has kept artists from making any representation of Christ or God’s character and that, IMHO only hurts us.
I will not go so far as to say “Well what ever floats your boat to understand God better and help you in a relationship with Him” But your argument prohibits any type of expression even in our imagination
Also, I wasn’t that moved by the Shack. If I understand correctly, even thought the Black woman God may look like the Oracle from the Matrix, I think Young grew up over seas and was tended by a black woman who he feels was compassionate and tender like God so she is taken more from that experience than the Weinstein brothers
The Oracle.
Which begs the question, why does Christian art so very, very often copy the world’s?
See: Ben Stein.
Ryan,
Great question.
There’s no one answer, really. My contention is that the more education a person has, the more liberal they are. Yes, I know,
it’s a generalization. But I think it transcends religious belief
and affiliation.
I have noticed that Missouri Synod folks tend to be more conservative than ELCA — but there are a lot of pretty conservative ELCA folks, too.
With our two-kingdom theology, I think we’re much less susceptible to being seduced by the Religious Right — or left, for that matter.
Steve,
I really don’t think any of us should take the approach of imagining God- as much as humanly possible. That’s why why have the Son. The Word made flesh. That’s why we have the Gospels- all four of them. So we’re not left to our own imaginations. Just thinking out loud…
“Which begs the question, why does Christian art so very, very often copy the world’s? ”
Yeh….especially with all those stupid T shirts that are sold in Christian bookstores ! lol
centy…don’t get me going on the Christian t-shirts. They really really bug me.
“A bread crumb and a fish” instead of Abercrombie and Fitch
pleeeease!
PTI,
Without engaging the imagination and affections all we are left with is dry propositional truth.
Should we exercise caution?
Absolutely, but in doing so we should have room to engage the whole person with the faith.
Hi, don’t mean to interfere in the conversation. However, anyone have answers for me regarding the “Bail Out”?
For example, let’s say I am the Bank Of Scott and I hold 1 billion dollars of Mortgage Backed Securities. Ninety Five percent of my securities are performing, in other words, the Folks are making their monthly payments. Five percent are toxic and worthless (In foreclosure) because no one will buy them on the free open market. Therefore, in my portfolio, I have 50 million (5 percent) dollars of toxic assets. I need that fifty million dollar cash flow. Or, the folks that are part of my portfolio want their money now.
Here’s my confusion:
1. Are the Feds buying and backing my whole billion dollar portfolio?
2. If so, what standard are they using to value my billion dollar portfolio? If I paid one billion dollars for the securities five years ago, the reality is that the value of the performing assets backing the securities are likely only worth 70 percent of what I paid for them five years ago.
3. What’s the standard used to value my 5 percent toxic securities? Are the Feds going to pay me what I paid for them five years ago?
4. If the Feds back my whole portfolio, what happens if the plan doesn’t work and the economy tanks even more and the default rate on the performing securities in my portfolio go from 5 percent to 15 percent? Who’s going to pay the difference on the additional loss?
5. Who’s going to service the MBS in my portfolio? As you can see, I have more questions than answers. Therefore, how can I support a 700 billion governmental bail out?
If anyone understands how this is going to work, you can write me at northwestmusings at yahoo dot com
“What are we afraid of?”
Creating an image of God. And He says, “That’s not Me”.
Like if someone said to me, “I know you’re a Republican but I like to think of you as a Democrat”.
(In actuality, I’m neither, but maybe you get my point).
Michael,
However, Jesus Christ is not a dry and propositional truth. He’s flesh and blood.
Sorry about not removing the pseudonym.
PTI,
Everyone has an image of God of some sort.
What “The Shack” did was illuminate an attribute that I had failed to grasp through years of Bible study.
Thus, I became more biblical, not less.
PTI
So what did the word become flesh look like? Ever imagine his facial features, his size? Was he an ectomorph or a mezzomorph? I don’t think it’s humanly possible not to imagine what God or Christ looks like.
Don’t get me wrong…I get your main point (I think) but God is deeply personal as well as sovereign. He is to be feared but he is to be loved too. I think art and books like the Shack can help us with out taking god out of heaven or Jesus off the cross.
“However, Jesus Christ is not a dry and propositional truth. He’s flesh and blood.”
Yes, but we have not seen that flesh and blood yet.
We meet Him by faith and, dare I say, sanctified imagination.
Christian T-shirts and Art is an oxymoron
Lutheran -
“My contention is that the more education a person has, the more liberal they are.”
You got me curious with that statement, and I thought there might be a poll that would back it up…surely *some* polling organization would have that readily available. But for some reason I didn’t find it in a quick google search (no time to do thorough research at the moment).
You wouldn’t happen to have some stats to back that, would you?
I really would be interested to see the breakdown there. Off the cuff it would seem that Academia is truly to the left, but I’m not sure Academia is reflective of the general population who’ve received higher education. At the same time, the conventional wisdom would say that minorities traditionally vote Democrat, and yet they typically (and sadly) have less education overall than the majority population.
Maybe that’s the beauty of “Having loved Him though you have not seen Him” and “More blessed are those that have not seen me and yet have believed”.
We are given the Gospels. And now, the Book of Revelation. That is enough for me. And I’ll tell you why.
People come up to me all of the time and tell me what Jesus should be like… A buff carpenter who can bench press 350 pounds. Others tell me he should be a gentle teacher, kind of a hippie dude. And I hear EVERYTHING in between. And in it all I roll my eyes. And have a greater appreciation for the written Word.
I guess I’m just an old fundamentalist in that way….
Scott,
I wonder whether we have crossed a bridge too far. It appears that we are screwed either way.
As Malcom X once said, “The chickens have come home to roost”.
PTI
Just so you know, I am on the board of directors of a traveling christian art exhibit and my brother is a very well known (world wide) artist. Right now we have sought a grant through our foundation where we can artistically present the gospel of Matthew in art.
One of our goals (and it’s a tough one) is to present Jesus as a Middle eastern Jew rather than the WASPY images of recent portrayals.
Believe it or not, it is a very risky undertaking because presenting Jesus as he may have appeared with darker facial features, dark hair and a more striking nose will be a turn off to many westerners. We prefer a blonde haired blue-eyed Jersus who looks more like a So Cal surfer boy.
“In the beginning we made God after our own image”
Lutheran -
I should add, that I believe the breakdown would probably be fairly even…maybe a 55/45 split leaning left. But I don’t have any real facts to base that on.
mld and Lutheran…thank you.
mld…the motive behind the question was not only your plug of the movie (which I have no problem with btw) and Lutheran’s political perspectives of late which have been fairly liberal.
I am fairly conservative but I’m not dogmatic and I don’t push my political opinions on the church. I know both left and right wingers in our church and I’m totally cool with that.
I will take issue with this statement made by Lutheran though…
“My contention is that the more education a person has, the more liberal they are.”
How do you explain the millions of uneducated liberals that live in the ghettos of places like NY, LA, and Chicago?
It really isn’t religion or education but geographic location that shapes most political opinions as is evidenced by how certain areas vote.
PTI
My point in all of this is that is is impossible not to put some type of image to God even if it’s in our minds. So we are all guilty of making a graven image. But it is not wrong in all cases. The problem with making an image in the OT is what you are alluding to: it limited God to the characteristics of the image God was portrayed.
So no image in our minds or other wise will ever totally capture all of God…but we can without sinning, present scenarios like in the Shack where God is depicted in this case as a black woman.
Lutheran,
Does that make independents slighly better educated than conservatives??
Got to run ya’ll literally…trying to loose weight!
Slighly-slightly, whatever…..stupid keyboard….If only I went to college….
TonyP, you must be conservative…
At the heart of God’s charge against idolatry, are the cause and effect, namely; WORSHIP and CONFORMITY.
God, wants a world filled with HIS glory. His means of accomplishing this was by designing us such that we become like that which we worship (Psalm 115, Romans 12:1-2). By worshiping the true God we are “transformed” by His power into the beauty of Christ, and thus populate the earth. Via, idolatry, we are conformed by the world (and the underworld). This is what makes idolatry “sinful”, and “shameful”, is that it crushes the image of God we were created to reflect, and hinders the “filling of all the earth” with His greatness.
BTW. I am unaware of anyone who actually believes that God is a “heavy-set, Black Woman”. Rather, they have drawn from the metaphor that God is “loving”, while casting aside the portrayal.
All that being said, IMHO, I still grapple with the “feminine” representation, mainly because the bible repetitiously chooses the “masculine” when referring to God.
centorian,
Nope. Registered independent, didn’t realize there was an education bar I had to leap. Plus, I was educated in electronics by the Navy….is there a stage lower than conservative??
Centy, you my be right. Here’s the deal, I called my two Senators and Congressman this afternoon and asked their staff if they could answer my questions. Do you know what? They had NO clue. They couldn’t even answer with assurance one of my questions. And these are the Folks that are watching the store, right! I am proud of Peter DeFazio though, he introduced a bill to block any bail out today.
First off, gentlemen…
I said it was a generalization.
Tim, my comment comes from personal observation — I think this is pretty well established. I went to a large Big Ten university and I’ve had quite a few friends pursuing advanced degrees. If you’re trying to break down conservative vs. liberal, I’d put it at 80-20 liberal.
Ryan,
Why would you say that millions of those in the ghettos are liberals? What do you base that on? Sorry, but that strikes me as kind of bizarre…
Scott,
How do I get my own Senator (you have two, don’t be greedy)?? The ones that represent my fine state I definitely don’t claim…
Good old Harry Reid…..
Scott,
The inmates are running the asylum.
Lutheran,
Are all your friends liberal? Or just the smart ones?
TonyP,
You don’t think I’m gonna answer that, do you?
PTI,
Are you opposed to crucifixes and corpuses? Do you see them as trying to “show” God? Just curious.
centorian,
Yeah, they are. And the funny part is “We the People” keep voting them in.
Lutheran,
Supposed to be truthful aren’t we????
Tony P,
yep says a lot about us as a society, doesn’t it?
Lutheran’s political perspectives of late which have been fairly liberal.
Well, I’m an independent. I call ‘em as I see ‘em.
I’m fair and balanced.
You know, like Fox.
centorian,
Yes it does. And I’m fairly sure I don’t like what it says. I’m only fairly sure because with my severe lack of “higher” education, I could be easily led astray.
TonyP,
What is truth?
“Pilate” Lutheran
TonyP, as far as I’m concerned you can have both of “My” Senators. Not much difference between the two
Lutheran is smarter and more liberal than I am - so that must prove the point!
He went to a Big Ten school and I went to state college.
Lutheran,
“I’m fair and balanced. You know, like Fox.” ROFL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…sniff….I’m pretty sure they are unbalanced at best.
MLD,
I went to a university once too. Does that mean I’m educated? Or did I actually have to “attend and graduate” from said school?
Lutheran…just the voting record of people in those areas. I know that most impoverished people are liberal because of the democrats socialistic policies.
Hey Centy, check this out. Congressman Peter DeFazio (Oregon) posted twelve reason not to vote for a bail out. Check out line 8.
1 - The Recoupment Clause Will Not Recover Any Lost Funds: It merely says a future President 5 years hence shall propose a plan to Congress to possibly recoup any losses. (Sec. 134) [Page 89] [1]
2 - Foreign Company Loophole: The bailout has been opened up to foreign companies with “significant operations in the United States”(Sec. 3 (5)) [Page 4]
3 - Foreign Central Bank Loophole: The bailout has been opened up to foreign central banks that hold bad assets from failed or defaulted financial institutions. (Sec. 112) [Page 32]
4 - Taxpayers Can be Saddled with Assets of Any Type: The bailout has been expanded to include car loans, auto loans and any other financial instrument as determined by the Secretary. (Sec 3 (9)(B) [Page 5]
5 - Severely Limited Judicial Review: Courts are prohibited from issuing any injunctions or relief on the basic premise of the legislation and the conflict of interest rules. (Sec. 119(a)2(A)) [Page 58]
6 - Executive Compensation Loopholes: Multiple loopholes for corporations to escape the limitations on golden parachutes, incentives, bonuses, and corporate deductions for executive salaries. (Sec. 111 and Sec. 302) [Page 29-32 and 98-109]
7 - No Fix of the Underlying Regulatory Failures: The next administration is required to send numerous reports to Congress. Unfortunately, Wall Street will have already received its bailout and have no incentive to support new reforms. (Sec. 105 [Page 17]
8 - $700 Billion Cap Loophole: The Secretary can sell assets and continue to buy more assets as long as the total purchase value remains under $700 billion. Any losses during the sale of assets are not considered. (Sec 115(b)) [Page 40]
9 - Foreclosure Mitigation is Voluntary: The taxpayers are being saddled with all the risk, but the lender is “encouraged” to minimize foreclosures (Sec. 109(a)) [Page 24]
10 - Full Authority to Spend $700 Billion: Congress has a mere 15 calendar days to object to the Secretary spending the second half of the $700 billion bailout. The President can veto the measure requiring the customary 2/3 to override. Besides this bailout, when is the last time we passed anything that fast? (Sec. 115(a)) [Page 39-40]
11 - Insurance Rates are Not Required to Follow Risk: The Secretary “may” (as opposed to the mandatory “shall”) set insurance premiums based on risk. Not setting premiums based on risk could leave the insurance trust fund seriously underfunded and leave taxpayers liable. (Sec. 102 (c)2) [Page 10]
12 - Money-Making Mergers: A loophole allows corporations to use a merger or acquisition to buy up troubled debt at below market rates and sell to the taxpayer at the higher government rate. (Sec. 101(c)) [Page 9]
Please oppose the bailout. There are many other less expensive alternatives that can restore liquidity to the market.
MLD…aren’t Big 10 schools “state schools”
ryan,
Yeah, but they’re “Bigger”…..
Scott,
And the government wonders why we don’t “trust” them.
TonyP…normally at this point I would brag about the PAC 10 and boast of it’s superiority athletically but with the pathetic football programs most of the PAC 10 teams are putting out their I’m not saying anything.
I am going to see USC play Oregon at the Coliseum this Sat.
Go Ducks!
Thanks for the Interview, good reads.
as for the Liberal VS Consevative argument, those who are truly into the Politicos and watch or listen to them on TV or Radio have proven to be more educated. Those who vote Republicrat or Democrap because My daddy did, usually graduated Publik Skool.
The Catholic Women have, based upon what percentage voted what way, picked the last 8 presidents correctly.Lutherans are just a restoration of the True Catholic church, based upon the last 8 elections going to both republicrats and demicans, they look more to the person than to the party. Of course when your choice is Bill Clinton or Bob Dole, who would you rather have a beer with?
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2778029
http://www.childpolicy.org/whatsnew/RichStatePoorStateRedStateBlueState2005.pdf
I called the President of the Bank I’ve dealt with for years this afternoon. Although time precluded me from asking him all 5 of the questions I posted previously, he did tell me that the loans the Feds, through the taxpayers, are planning to buy from Banks are not bundled portfolios that have “some” toxic assets, it’s ALL the toxic currently worthless assets that no one can even place a value on at this point.
In addition, he explained to me that even smaller community Banks like his stand to receive money from the Feds. He told me that the Taxpayers are going to pay for “Non performing assets” on their books as well. In other words, they have many subdivisions they have had to take back, and their expectations are that the taxpayers are going to essentially make them whole on any money they lost on the transaction. Not 100%, but pretty close to it. The money then flows back into their bank so they can start loaning money all over again! Nice, eh?
Scott…I’m sick. Now, the bailout has a week’s worth of earmarks.
Linnea, they gotta do something to buy the votes, right?
They could do like we do in Washington, just keep counting while Pelossi fills out some ballots in the back until the count is “Right”
The Shack isn’t very original in seeing God as a black woman.
Stephen King did that in his book “The Stand.”
Abigail,
Young used a black woman because it was a black nanny that gave him love and support in the midst of abuse.
Officer Hoppy,
I’m trying to lose weight too, but my knees and ankles won’t let me run. Next time I visit you, let’s skip Baja Fresh and go get an ounce of wheat grass juice (BLECH!).
I would like to see the next president (whomever) to show he is down for helping out the taxpayers and empathizes with them, by refusing any financial compensation for his entire term. They are both rich, McCain wildly so. They don’t need a salary really. Then, challenge all the other political fatcats (even the Wall Street people, but we know THAT will never happen) to refuse THEIR compensations, at least until middle America gets back on track.
I would also like to see all the homeowners that bought a house in the last 7 years or so, to be able to have their mortgages reduced to their homes current worth - to not have to pay the ridiculous sum they signed up for when the market was sky high.
Yeah, sorry, off topic…
Wow, I got to close down a thread!
Speaking of Tom Stipe, who is somewhat of a hero to me for “telling it like it is”, have you all seen this video of Tom from his younger days?
Oops. Guess that link didn’t take. Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IrlYs_sYO4
I am concerned about the attitudes expressed in this discussion on the shack, it seems that many expressed a attitude that being discerning is unloving. First it is noble when we act as the Bereans and study the scriptures to see if someone’s book is aligned with the word of God. I get the impression from the comments here stated so far that having this attitude is being closed-minded and self-righteous. Second, the work of God in a person’s life is by the foolishness of the gospel not by the cunning speech or writings of man. Are we drawing people to a biblical understanding of God or a mental graven image that we prefer that seems more approachable and more like us. The author in essence is creating a graven image of God that you find favorable from a human standpoint but in reality draws us away from the reality of the real God. The question should not be does this work, or how well the people received it? Many false teachings have helped people be more moral, happier and a sense of spirituality. But do they draw us closer to Christ who made no qualms about offending people with his message emphasizing death to self and a complete surrender to him? I am very concerned that we spent so little so time in the scriptures and prayer and yet attempt to make judgments about a book from a human perspective. God is not us and man has often made the mistake of making graven images of God whether in stone or in our minds to fill our spiritual needs without seeking the words of life that point us to the author of life who is Christ. I said this in love because we will all one day stand before a holy God who will will judge us according to his word not our opinions.
. The author in essence is creating a graven image of God that you find favorable from a human standpoint but in reality draws us away from the reality of the real God.
Albert,
Welcome to PP.
Isn’t The Shack a FICTION book? I always thought a FICTION book means you’re making stuff up. Right?
With your “logic,” I guess anybody who writes about God in a FICTION book, such C.S. Lewis or Charles Williams or (fill in the blank) is guilty of creating a graven image because what they’re writing draws us away from the ‘true God’?
I’m skeptical of your point of view, but I’m not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand…