The most holy Ingrid Schlueter and the most reverend Steve Camp have taken turns over the last week ripping up John Piper for his "support" of Mark Driscoll and because Paul Tripp used a profanity in making the best apologetic I've ever heard against using profanity.
Camp thinks that if you try to sound like you swallowed John Owen you are somehow holier than the rest of us beggars.
In reality, both he and Schlueter sound like small minded, prune hearted, Pharisees.
(I cleaned that sentence up a lot and you'd be proud of me if you knew what I originally wrote.)
John Piper is probably the most humble, most truly self effacing man in his position we've ever seen.
His accomplishments on a scholarly and pastoral level in any given month of his career exceed what this "has been" and "never was" have accomplished in their entire lifetimes.
He has given away most of his labor for free or for little cost, choosing to enrich the Body of Christ rather than himself.
He chooses to buy his clothes at Goodwill so all of us can profit from the incredible gifts God gave him.
His thanks for that is to be called names and slandered by people who aren't qualified to judge a chili cook off, let alone the work and heart of a giant.
Piper, with his customary grace hasn't responded.
Just for the education of Prissy and the Sour Puritan, what Piper is doing with Driscoll is called "mentoring".
Read First and Second Timothy and try to get a clue.
While these folks spit at grace, Piper endures their shameful attacks to help a gifted but arrogant young man become what God would have him be.
The day has come when we assault a blameless man for being a father in the faith to a young minister… and it is a despicable day.
Because some men risked their reputations to come alongside me and lovingly rebuke and correct me, we've been able to have a ministry that bore much fruit while minimizing the damage that a cocky, angry man with a Mac could do.
Driscoll has the gifts and abilities to do much good for the church and he also has the personality to do a whole lot of damage.
Piper is trying to maximize the gifts and minimize the damage that much fruit might come for the kingdom.
Camp and Schlueter are just currying the favor of folks who need industrial strength Ex-Lax in their brownies.
Both have also missed the point of the Puritan divines they claim to love…it's all of grace.
Now then, in an attempt to bring some redeeming value out of this rant, Pastor JimB has written an article on the importance of coaching and mentoring for an online Christian sports magazine.
I commend it to your reading and assure you that Jim didn't know his link would be preceded by one of my meltdowns.
On a personal note…I'm way behind on email, but I'm efforting. ;-)
Being mentored by someone is such a gift. Too many of us have never had the privilege of being mentored or the humility to hear and act on tough feedback. Because of this website, I’ve gotten to know John Piper through the body of work he has offered free on the internet. He is a great teacher who has studied and communicates that knowledge through a grace-filled speaking and writing style. That he buys his clothes at Goodwill (as my husband and I have) makes me love him all the more.
Regarding cussing…unfortunately, people often remember only the offending words and not the message as we’ve seen with Driscoll. A good communicator will make sure what is heard by the receiver is what was intended by the communicator. Incendiary words can magnify a message, but they can just as easily, and I might add, more often, detract. They will get attention, though!
It’s easy to throw stones at someone who won’t fight back. I disagree with Piper’s Calvinism, but Piper is truly a humble servant of our Lord and King - and God has blessed him with a brilliant mind.
Again, I suggest we ignore the ‘discerners’…when they lose their audience, they’ll go away.
I had the chance of spending some time with Piper at a Regional National Conference we put on in San Luis Obispo. I too was impressed with his humility and simplicity. In fact Piper had NEVER set foot in a Starbucks in his life until that trip. Michael, you are spot on in pointing out that he has laid aside his reputation in order to mentor and guide Driscol. It’s sad that people who don’t know all the details or arrangements like these make cheap shots.
Piper actually reminded me a lot of Chuck Smith: Humble, doesn’t care about the type of car they drive, slow to speak, simple clothing, giving away massive amounts of books and products free of charge, doesn’t care about their reputation especially in light of opportunity to help out others in need.
When I was on staff at Costa Mesa and first word came to me via his son (Jeff) that David Hocking was going to be restored and on staff, I remembered thinking that many will not like this. And this was true. There were many accusations against Chuck.
I know there are always details to every setting like this that don’t get publicity(Hocking incident was indeed one of them), however one statement I remember Chuck saying that let a deep impression on this young impressionable heart, was something along these lines, “If I err in this, I would rather err on the side of grace”.
Would to God, we all live more like that.
Maybe someone needs to mentor Camp and Schlueter…
This reminds me of another bubble of disillusion that popped for me back when “contemporary music” mainstreamed in the church culture. I figured the whole issue of “God’s music” VS “the devil’s music” had been answered for the asinine and archaic idea that it is until I heard a lady talking about how “the devil made me listen to rock”…
…and I all at once realized that every generation must examine it’s cultural comfort zone, hash out the zeitgeist and each member find their personal peace with what he or she will believe and practice in the light of their revelation and understanding og God and His character.
I’m trying to remember what Jesus said about cussing…
Oh, yeah, HE DIDN’T.
So that leaves it up to common sense and love, doesn’t it?
If “cussing” bothers someone I am speaking with I avoid it.
On the other hand, if I create a piece of art which is meant to inflame or shock the masses from complacency to critical thought and action for change (like ending the death penalty or abortion) I believe the strategic use of street language is entirely appropriate.
Ok, now I will tiptoe while trying to communicate with this wider family audience and respect it’s sensibilities…
French Connection UK has a brilliant ad campaign which I am going to combine with Amnesty International’s brilliantly researched and presented stand on the archaic practice of capital punishment and the United State’s continued participation. Without offending the wider audience here it will say
“_ _ _ _ cptl pnshmnt”
Feel free to look up the French Connection UK and Amnesty International websites, then fill in the 4 blanks which represent letters, which I would normally fill in but have left blank out of respect for PP friends and family.
Bryan
Thank you for sharing about Pastor Chuck. He is a man of grace, something sorely lacking in churches today. I have been blessed by such people in my life. While there have been those will forever hold things in my past over me, there have also been those who recognize the completeness of God’s grace.
Bryan, I echo your words, “Would to God, we all live more like that.”
Speaking of mentoring, my first job in a church was that of a youth pastor. We had a gang of youth that lived by the church who constantly caused trouble. They vandalized, and they were rude. I was standing in the parking lot one day watching them play on the property, hoping to catch them doing something, then someone put his hand on my back. It was the senior pastor. I will never forget his words tome, “Bob, until you see those youth through the eyes of Jesus, you will never reach them.” Those were great words of instruction!
I think I had a comment disappear into the abyss…so please forgive any duplication.
I again suggest that we simply ignore the ‘discerners’ & invite others to do the same. When their audience disappears, they will go away.
I obviously disagree with Piper’s Calvinism, but he is truly a humble servant of our Lord and King. He has a brilliant mind, and a true desire to preach the gospel. We were given a case of his “50 Reasons Jesus Had to Die” - and we gave away copies to every family in our fellowship & to many visitors. I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again.
Bryan,
Word.
“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank You that I am not like other men”…everyone who exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Luke 18:11, 14″
Above taken from the devotional I read today - emphasized that the Pharisee prayed with himself (and how prone we all are to doing so)…Schlueter and friends have, perhaps, gotten caught up in a terminal case of it…a gross misunderstanding of what it means to separate IMCO
As far as the “language issues” that Camp rants about on his lengthy blog, I think Mriscoll nailed it pretty good at the conference. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/3261/Video/
These guys are way too uptight, and the make-up of their ministries reflects it.
FYI: Mriscoll, is a new name that I have given Mark Driscoll
Bryan,
i don’t get the Starbucks connection……….
former partner cent
“Driscoll has the gifts and abilities to do much good for the church and he also has the personality to do a whole lot of damage.”
Sorry but it’s not about DOING. i have pagan friends who could DO good things for the church. It is about becoming conformed to the image of Christ. Profanity has no place in that endeavor. God could DO anything himself he doesn’t need us.
cent,
meaning, he just lives “simply”, w/o many of the things we (I) use daily as supposed staples of life.
cent,
what does “former partner cent” mean?
Well, this just made it onto Ingrid’s weblog.
For the record, I wish both of you would cut the adjectives and stick to facts.
Doug,
you said, “God could DO anything himself he doesn’t need us.”
I don’t think anyone would contend with that here. Yet, ironically in His providence he chooses His redeemed image bearers to carry the charge, to announce his victory and to do so humbly in submission and love to God and one another.
Therefore, we must offer room for grace and growth among ourselves while we are in process of being “changed from glory to glory”.
sunamijim,
thanks for the link on Mriscoll aka Driscoll
I hope that people don’t get so hung up on the language issue, that they miss the heart of the message. this is a good message…
byran,
sorry, I was playing with ya a bit…..
I used to work for the company
Will you guys pray for my wife (who’s 6 1/2 months pregnant)?
She just passed out then threw up giving blood (for a test) this morning. She’s resting now while I watch her, and my 5 and 3 year old.
She’ll be fine, but I appreciate your prayers!
Cpt Kirk
Kirk, you got it!
I be praying kirk………
bryan
Kirk,
Praying…..
Ingrid misses the point as usual.
The point is that Piper is doing something besides throwing rocks…he’s giving of his time and himself to help someone grow into the kind of man and minister God would have them be.
He’s modeling the type of leadership and mentoring that is sorely needed in the Body of Christ and deserves our support, not our scorn.
When I sent a link to my article about coaching and mentoring to my first mentor, a guy who spent a year living with and disciplining me that first year I walked with God, and then went on to spend the last 35 years on staff with Campus Crusade, he sent me back this quote in his reply:
‘In a talk Dr. Howard Hendricks once gave on mentoring he said, “You can impress people from a distance but you can only impact them up close.”’
Michael, I couldn’t agree with you more concerning John Piper and the man of God he is. Piper has probably been the most influential man in my life for the last two years and I have learned so much from him. I agree with you that Driscoll is being “mentored” by Piper and thus he has grace with him.
At the same time though, I don’t know if I agree with Tripp’s use of foul language to make a point. I watched the video and it seems like he is trying to say that 4 letters words, if they’re used to bring grace to the hearer then it’s ok. I just don’t know about that. I believe that Paul the Apostle clearly spoke about this subject when he said to “not let any profane or idle word come out of our mouths.” We are not to be like the world, we are to come out from among them and be separate. Why would a Christian want to say those words anyway? What is the motive behind it? This should be a no brainer IMO. Thanks for the post! It was needed.
Grace & Peace,
Roger
I didn’t read Ingrid’s or Camp’s articles, and I won’t be reading them, so I can’t comment on them. But Piper is a man of God who doesn’t deserve to be attacked for something he feels God led him to do. I figure God can speak to John Piper at least as effectively as He can speak to internet junkies like us (and others.) Although I do think I hear from God more than Piper when it comes to the five points, but that is another subject. I wouldn’t dream of attacking Piper or Driscoll, even though I disagree with them on some minor points of doctrine. In fact, I don’t attack anyone who believes in inerrancy.
profane words…I suspect, don’t have the bona fides to declare, but I suspect that some in the Body are confusing coarse and earthy words with what Scripture tells us to avoid…all the while, we are using those profane words ouselves…dunno
praying for wife and baby as I type, JTK
I’m working all day and half the night so I won’t be able to respond much today.
I thought Tripp’s video was honest and brilliant…it impacted me and is a big help as I raise kids and speak to people who have no qualms about using profanity.
I’m very aware of my own shortcomings and sin…the closer I get to God the more I see in myself that is rotten despite my desire to be doctrinally sound.
We are so stuck on form that we are forced to ignore our sins, cover them up and hide them lest someone see who we “really” are and deny us the grace that is the only cure.
God sees…He saw from eternity past and laid our filth on our Savior so we can be honest to God about our sin and honest with each other about our struggles.
My anger is directed to those who force us back into form…and leave us sick and scared in our sins.
Ingrid’s posting has the comments disabled. Of course.
She writes a bit about Driscoll’s “over the top” comments, as*uming they are accurate, I would agree that he has made mistakes, he is a bit courser than I would be. He is however, very honest about his “foot in mouth disease”.
I don’t know anyone in the country that is making as significant an impact as he is with young people. I don’t know about Ingrid, or Camp’s ministries, but I doubt they are really reaching young people with their uptight, religious, tenor.
(MHO)
BTW, I think you should watch that video of Mark’s teaching. It at least gives his perspective on why he is a bit loose with his language.
Kirk,
Praying…
One of the things we might want to do today to keep this from being another “us against them” thread is to talk about how mentors have affected our own lives…or how the lack of mentors have affected us and really, our whole culture.
Back to work…
Thanks for the prayers! Not trying to hijack the topic. PP rocks!
I never had a real mentor.
My model was go to church, pray every day, read my Bible and try hard to be good and not to sin. On my own. Then, if I got my act together, maybe someone would come along side me and mentor me.
Bull.
Wish I knew then what I know now…
Kirk…praying now for your bride and baby.
Michael, when you open with… “The most holy Ingrid Schlueter and the most reverend Steve Camp have taken turns over the last week ripping up John Piper for his “support” of Mark Driscoll and because Paul Tripp used a profanity in making the best apologetic I’ve ever heard against using profanity…” it’s hard to take ” …keep this from being another “us against them” thread” seriously. Seriously.
Hi Brian D~
I never had a real mentor either… My husband and I had asked many people over the years,
They usually gave the ” Ill pray bout it and get back to you later” or the “You dont need a mentor, just your bible and prayer and go to church faithfully” pat answers…
Sad really.
The best mentors I’ve ever had never saw themselves in that position, but because of the way they lived their lives, I went to them to ask for advice and prayer. Even when I asked for advice, they were judicious in spewing correction, but generous in offering prayer and a few choice words or personal experiences. I respond to that. I suspect most of us would.
James T Kirk….praying for your wife now, and for your kiddos. Off to stain our fence and pray. Have a wonderful day everyone.
The guilt by association in the body of Christ is atrocious.
It’s a good thing that these idiots weren’t blogging when Jesus was walking the earth because they would have been writing “crucify Him, crucify Him”
Im encouraged to read John Piper is coming alongside Driscoll to mentor him.
Im encouraged to read:
“John Piper is probably the most humble, most truly self effacing man in his position we’ve ever seen.
His accomplishments on a scholarly and pastoral level in any given month of his career exceed what this “has been” and “never was” have accomplished in their entire lifetimes.
He has given away most of his labor for free or for little cost, choosing to enrich the Body of Christ rather than himself.
He chooses to buy his clothes at Goodwill so all of us can profit from the incredible gifts God gave him.”
May God raise up more godly men such as Piper for the edification of the body of Christ.
Billy Graham has caught it from conservatives for ministering to Presidents of both parties. I’m of the belief that if God has given you a means of influence for Him, you’d better follow through on what He’s provided. Everything else aside, Driscoll has an audience and Piper is wise to disciple him. I believe Jesus would have done the same.
JTK~
Praying for your wife and your family today
I came to Christ at a Baptist Church in Olympia, WA.
The youth pastor, Jim Millikan, took me under his wing and began to disciple and mentor me. We spent tons of time together…he really became a dad to me in many ways. I watched him, listened to him, and modeled him.
He taught me how to read the Bible (I had never picked one up before). He taught me how to pray…how to teach…how to minister to people…he inspired me to become a pastor.
Not long after I graduated and left for college, Jim became the Senior Pastor of the church. Not long after that he got really burned out…quit the ministry…became a pharmaceutical rep…began making a lot of money…left his wife…and is now engaged to and living with some women.
I still praise God for using Jim in my life…without him I don’t know where I would be today. The Lord used him powerfully in my life and to give me the heart to serve Him that I have.
Mentoring is a lost art in the Church…discipleship has been relegated to going through an 8 week course and sitting down with someone over coffee and a book. Nothing wrong with this but true discipleship involves daily living, which of course takes time and commitment for both parties.
make that “some woman”
Not that living with one isn’t bad enough.
“Therefore, we must offer room for grace and growth among ourselves while we are in process of being “changed from glory to glory”.” yes true but this…(I cleaned that sentence up a lot and you’d be proud of me if you knew what I originally wrote.) and the fact that he hasn’t repented of writing it is telling of the spirit that is guiding him. Why the passion and zealous defense to be dirty? Where do you think that is coming from? We are Christians, we are to be different. Yes we need room for grace but we also know what scripture says is right and wrong of the fowl language of the world. Again, especially from a pastor who SHOULD be held to a higher standard. 12 year olds on a playground act and talk like this. Can we expect pastors to at least function on a higher level then that? oh, but then they wouldn’t be hip and cool… (Ephesians 5:4, Titus2:7-8, Matthew 12 36-37)
Doug,
I’ll speak slowly so you might understand…
This was not an apologetic for dirty speech, but a defense of Piper and the role of a mentor.
Nobody is fighting for the right to cuss and we all understand that it is usually inappropriate and sinful.
We got it…but there are bigger issues here that we are trying to address.
Fowl language? So it’s wrong to talk about chickens? OMG I am going to hell!!
I’ll bet Barnabas took a lot of heat when he went after Paul and stood beside him…I love Driscoll…he’s a breath of fresh air to a stale Evangelical world
“Can we expect pastors to at least function on a higher level then that? oh, but then they wouldn’t be hip and cool…”
Hell yes!
Sorry folks, I get easily irked at people who choke Christianity to death on small or insignificant issues
Michael
The point was that he was proud he wrote something profane about fellow believers . Un der stand?
Sis, you’re right. That’s what “discipleship” looks like in much of evangelicalism.
Ryan showed us an example of what discipleship actually should look like.
Steve, I love it when you get “irked” I am multi-blogging,… I’m irked elsewhere.
Doug,
I would ne ver have got ten that point from your com ment. I guess I am dull min ded for not read ing yer thoughts. Many here at the Pp are like me. So due us a fav or and state yer point in stead of ex pect ing us to figger it out. thankx
filistine
Oh yeah, well I’m as irked as am going to get here so I’m taking my irkness somewhere else. Nyaaaaaaa
“Sorry folks, I get easily irked at people who choke Christianity to death on small or insignificant issues” Yeah bashing other Christians with crude talk is nothing (see main article par 4) oh wait I thought i was leaving I am byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Oh man…I so gotta say this here….
The only pastors I trust are the ones that aren’t afraid to real” and even cuss every once in a while in front of me like a “normal person” would.
as I said before, I don’t think we really get it where the Biblical concept that has been translated profane is concerned…lots of things are profane that are not coarse or vulger.
This blog seems to sort out the sacred and the profane pretty well - even if some muck gets on the shoes in the process … thank You, Lord for Christian men like Piper and Driscoll and Michael who aren’t afraid of some mud on their boots and when they see it, they know what to call it. IMNSHO
London, in all fairness, there are some great men of God, men worth listening to, who won’t let a coarse word pass their lips. But it has nothing to do with their <holiness standing.
as I see it…
I posted some helpful links at my blog:
http://briandblog.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/daily-linkathon-103/
Michael -
Thanks for freeing my posts from the abyss!
Kirk -
Praying!
Usually inappropriate and sinful? And you are the one that’s going to make the decision on when it is and not? Yes let’s all practice cafeteria Christianity and pick and choose what we like, when we want it to justify what we do and say whenever we want. Yes, let’s act just like the world instead of being salt and light to glorify our God. The risen Christ Jesus. I read articles and posts on sites like this and have to wonder just what Gospel, and just what Christ some actally believe in and live for.
OK, let’s all forget the Holy Spirit and listen to Brett. He has a corner on truth. Go ahead, Brett, enlighten us losers.
Oh, and Doug, bye. Thanks for straining those gnats for us. Hope there’s someone man enough to perform the Heimlich for you when you choke on that camel.
You go Brett.
Hey Everybody!
When we(Christians) communicate whether it is one on one, to a large group or on a blog what should be #1 as far as most important? I would say
1.That what we say glorifies GOD. God first, are we all good with that?
Does crude talk ever give a holy, holy, holy God glory? If the thought is.. well it helps us reach ordinary worldly folk….that is a false argument. We can’t reach lost people. God has no need of us for this purpose. Only God can draw people to himself. Does God ever through the Holy Spirit use worldly, profane things to draw people? That would be saying God is depending on us to bring people to him. Is God depending on us for the salvation of the world? NO! God brings people to himself (here is where he has given us privilege to be a part of the picture) through the preaching of his holy gospel. Do we have a right to add anything profane to what is holy? Would he be pleased when we talk about other believers using profane talk? Our purpose in life is to be conformed into the image of Christ not into the image of the world because we think that’s what we need to do to reach lost people. If our goal is to be formed in Christ’s image, crude talk helps…how? I believe it was Wesley who said don’t focus on doing something, focus on being something(Christlike)….and to the person who thought he was cute with his hell ya! If you had any regard for lost souls and final judgment you would never in a flip way through hell around like the lost world does to diminish it’s ultimate purpose.
Psalms -
You said…
“London, in all fairness, there are some great men of God, men worth listening to, who won’t let a coarse word pass their lips. But it has nothing to do with their <holiness standing. as I see it…”
Yep..there are guys like that too I agree. And if that’s who they are as people, then cool. I don’t think cussing or not cussing has anything to do with someone’s holiness standing. Just I personally find guys who talk like other people I know, easier to relate to, cause to me, they seem more authentic.
It’s simple. Driscoll does a series on doctrine and each teaching averages 2000 hits or so. He does an explicit series on Song of Solomon, purposefully stripping it of any Christology, and each message gets 15000 hits.
You do the math.
What pleases the Lord? That’s the final arbiter.
PTI - I watched the Song of Solomon vids just out of sheer shock at the bizzare nature of the teaching and all the cute furry characters more than for any actual content.
I think people are just blown away that he’s using so much hmmmmmm “creativeness” in that series so they are getting passed around.
Personally I thought it was kinda dorky…but what do I know.
I do applaud his willingness to stand up and look like a dork though.
It’s truly amazing that a blog post defending John Piper for taking Mark Driscoll under his wing comes under fire for “defending” profane language.
Missing. The. Point.
Mike,
…doesn’t Paul in Philippians shrug off the ill-will with which some where sharing the gospel and declare that through whatever means the gospel is preached, that’s great? I mean, their motivation was to get Paul in further trouble, likely to be executed. Doesn’t that compromise the glory of God and profane the gospel? Paul didn’t think so.
Further, I do know that the one who threw the ‘hell ya’ around has a heart for the lost and is well aware of the eternal consequences of life apart from the grace of God. Who are you to judge?
London,
I said, “it has nothing to do with their holiness standing. as I see it”
you said, “I don’t think cussing or not cussing has anything to do with someone’s holiness standing. ”
Brett, MIke and, I think, Puzzletop don’t agree with that - dunno…I’ll think on that one, too
guess I’ll go see what the cafeteria is serving today..
It sure seems to me that (what little I know of him) Driscoll has been called of God to speak to generation or strata in our times that has contempt for us Believers because they’ve been brain washed to think we’re insulated and isolated from the ‘real’ world. They say to us ‘wake up and smell the coffee’ and he’s saying, ‘we are awake - we were up before you and we made the coffee.’
Forgive the presumption… or not.
LOL!!! See…and I bet you like Brocolli too Psalms! Blech…
Here’s where I am coming from (just because I like digging holes for myself)….I’m trying to be a bit discreet here too though so..bear with me.
I don’t live in a world where people using cussing on a regular basis. I live in a world where for the most part people are pretty careful with their speech because most often, we’re either with co-workers or clients. Not a great place to just let rip with the profanity…..
But…when I’m with my friends an occasional 4 letter word may be used, on occassions when nothing else seems right. We aren’t “careful” around each other because we’re just being ourselves. Now….some of those friends don’t cuss and that’s cool….others, will cuss every once in a while and that’s cool too….it’s more important that they are authentic and expressive than it is that they uses the Queens’ english.
Lately, I’ve been hanging out at a church
where the pastor occassionally cusses (never from “the pulpit” but yeah..some times when we’re just hanging out…yep…he does) to me…that makes him more authentic cause I know he feels comfortable enough with me and my friends to be able to be who he is and not who he thinks we expect him to be.
Same with some of the guys I know from here. They aren’t mamby-pamby sissy boys
and they remind me of my brothers and their friends. More relatable than “perfect” (on the surface) guys who think that not cussing makes them appear more holy.
Profanity is cultural. What one culture sees as a “vulgar” word is not one in another country. I know that for a fact, so I have to think that cultural issues are not really how God judges a person’s holiness. It’s got to be something else entirely….he doesn’t (I don’t think) have some chart up in heaven that says…”oops…London used the word fanny in the US so that doesn’t count against her…but then again..there was that time she said it in England and oh my gosh..that’s really profane so she lost some holiness points there…”
Rambling for no real reason except to avoid working…..
Regarding Sister Christian’s comment on discipleship….
I’ve been on both sides of that one.
When someone asks “would you disciple or mentor me?” it’s a loaded question….a reasonable response would be “what is your expectation of this relationship?”
What does mentorship mean? What is expected of the mentor and what is expected of the mentee? Is the mentee asking for a friend to commiserate with or does the mentee really want to hear the truth?
I’ve had experiences, when asked to mentor someone, that, in response to a struggle they were having, I suggested that living with your boyfriend might result in a hardened heart and insensitive spirit. The relationship ended abruptly.
The fact of the matter is that obedience to God must be practiced, and as we practice obedience, He entrusts us with greater spiritual truths, resulting in spiritual growth.
Both parties in the mentor/mentee relationship must be willing to hear hard things.
Comments?
OH GOOD! It’s OK to participate in sin to illustrate its sinfulness! Wonderful! I’m going to go put up some pornographic pictures to illustrate the sinfulness of porn! And dress scantily to illustrate how we should be modest. It’s been demonstrated by Paul Tripp after all that this is the most effective way to teach.
I am off to India. God bless you folk as you sort out the reformed swearers. I say let em all devour one another as proof of their rightousness.
Anyway I am on Singapore Air and signing off.
Dreading 19 Hours of Air
BD- don’t forget my postcard!!!!! :mrgeen:
IMHO, Piper isn’t mentoring; he’s pandering.
Thanks for your prayers! After some rest, your prayers, and some Blake’s Lotaburgers, she’s doing well!
Reform -
Whether or not he’s mentoring or pandering may be matter of our own individual perspective, admittedly. But hasn’t Piper earned the benefit of the doubt from the Christian community?
Thank you, it’s good to see a man in the blogosphere who won’t stand for some of the sharp criticism of men like Schuelter and Camp. Driscoll isn’t perfect but neither are any of us.
I’m so thankful that Jesus doesn’t treat us that way but instead shows us grace. I appreciate your graciousness in response to these two men.
Dread..praying for safe travels and a profitable trip.
Moderator
Please remove my 2:22! Just talked to a English chap who explained what the broad meaning of the word can be!! My bad!
Praying brother Dread.
reform,
which form of ‘pandering’ do you accuse this brother?
A. noun, a go-between in love intrigues
B. noun, one who solicits clients for a prostitute
C. noun, one who exploits or caters to the weakness of others
D. verb, to act as a pander; one who solicits/exploits/caters/etc.
that is a loaded term that bears some qualification or explanation.
Gonna have me some Jiffy pop Kettle Corn microwave popcorn.
Then, im taking a nap.
God Bless.
(After reading some of the ODM defenders posts I figured I would insert something of substance)
Eric…that’s one of my favorite snacks, with a vanilla coke.
There’s my substance.
Vanilla Coke….yum!
Linnea,
You wrote,
“I’ve had experiences, when asked to mentor someone, that, in response to a struggle they were having, I suggested that living with your boyfriend might result in a hardened heart and insensitive spirit. The relationship ended abruptly.”
Perhaps asking a few simple questions and giving appropriate answers would quickly determine whether a person is truly seeking a spiritual mentor or seeking someone to support their position, real or imagined loopholes or simply to assuage their guilt.
If the other party abruptly ends the relationship, wouldnt that pretty much solve the dilemma?
Im glad you present the other side of the issue, as there may be other complexities involved!
Speaking of popcorn, have you seen these new Redneck smoke detectors?
http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=smokedetectorrt5.jpg
Tim,
Cherry Coke…
Hows your week been?
Babylon Dread,
Gods blessing be upon you, your family and those whom you minister to during your time in India! Looking forward to hearing good reports upon your return!
Tim is right. Piper has earned more than just benefit of the doubt. I, too, am not a Calvinist but he is a man with a wonderful track record of Godliness. His contributions to the body of Christ are more than significant.
Having said that, the problem with a discussion like this one is that we focus, instead of the context of Michael’s post, on the things that we find offensive. Language is a very important thing to consider in our Christian walk. If we are to be light–a witness–we must walk circumspectly. For example, London wrote this: But…when I’m with my friends an occasional 4 letter word may be used, on occassions when nothing else seems right. We aren’t “careful” around each other because we’re just being ourselves.
The problem is that who we really are is not supposed to be carnal. We are to be transformed into His image. In other words, we may have been that way before, but we are supposed to change. The man/woman who says ‘I’m just being real’ isn’t being real like Jesus. It’s just flesh. Cultural or not, our light is to shine. I find it amazing that it was written that someone likes pastors who occasionally cuss to show themsleves real. If a pastor (or anyone else for that matter) cusses, it’s supposed to be a slip and repented of. If I cussed in a message or in my every day life, I would be badly misrpresenting Jesus.
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
Matthew 28:18-20
Anyone care to comment if Jesus command to make disciples implies mentoring is involved in the process?
John Piper is a Christian Maverick!
fyi…honest question. How do you know that Jesus didn’t cuss on occasion? Don’t you think that calling someone a “brood of vipers” is the same as calling them a butthead (or whatever you choose)….
You think that when missed a nail and hit his thumb with a hammer he just went “oh shoot, that hurt just a smidgen”
I don’t…I think he went #&*$&#* OUCH!!!!
Now maybe later is was sorry if he offended anyone…but I don’t think the thing itself, saying $#($*#&$ was a sin. So…therefore, I don’t have an issue with it.
But then again….I guess I just haven’t changed the way I’m “supposed to” yet.
But, London…if Jesus is perfect, did he ever miss the nail?!
PTI…come on bro.
I don’t believe using profane language of any sort in public speaking is appropriate but Tim was right when he observed how quickly the discussion went to how bad Piper was for coming alongside Driscol who is known to say a harsh word or two. I wouldn’t do it in public but so what if Piper comes along side this Man for his Generation? In our day it was considered profane to use a guitar for worship and many were criticized for that.
The point is a couple (one maybe two) folks immediately went from the issue of Piper helping Driscoll to the profane language thing. I don’t get it
SC,
The mentoring relationships I have been in haven’t been a formal thing at all. They have happened in the framework of friendship, and really for me it was never of the kind where one person is the teacher and the other is the student. When JL mentored me that first year after getting saved, he simply asked me if I’d like get together once a week so we could study God’s word together. Then, we ended up sharing an apartment later, having Bible studies many evenings, and do street witnessing on an almost daily basis. I was the younger believer and soaking up everything I could, but he was just as receptive to learning from me as I was from him, and he made that clear. Even today he claims I taught him as much as he taught me.
JA was a man who was a leader in the church I attended and he had 5 daughters in his house, two around my age. I spent a lot of time over at his house and the family sort of adopted me. We discussed spiritual things all of the time, and I was eager to learn from him. Again, it was friendship based and not a I’m the teacher you are the student kind of thing. We never even mentioned mentoring or coaching. I loved just loved hanging out with JA. Probably 3 out of 4 nights I would be over at his house and he would finally about midnight go to the front door and start yawning to give me a hint that he really needed to get some sleep.
I’ve tried to imitate that same sort of style when I have mentored others. We become like those we look up to as leaders.
And, I think that the answer to your question about making disciples is true. Its one thing to teach a class or church service. But, pouring your life into people as Jesus did, who is our example of discipleship, is mentoring I believe. The pastors I know who effectively train leaders in their churches get to know the guys they work with and pour their lives into them.
Sarah- well…I guess if Jesus was perfect, he didn’t need to even use a hammer and nails right?? He would just go “poof” (or whatever the magic creator word is)and chairs and tables would have just appeared. No nails needed…..
And…do you think he ever got an arithmatic problem wrong in Jewish Carpenter school??? I wonder that stuff all the time…amd if he was so perfect as a child, don’t you think the other kids probably bullied him for being a “nerd”??
I wonder this stuff…..
London…I was just kidding around, although it is interesting to think about those things. Gordon Fee, prof at Regent, was really good at basketball when he was younger, and he says all the time that if he ever played one-on-one with Jesus he would have beaten him every time. Made for a pretty funny visual…but of course, that’s another discussion!
Sarah - I knew you were goofin’ I just thought I’d push it some….
Cause I really do wonder that stuff…
Jesus was probably a short Jewish guy…so your prof. was probably right… :mrgeen:
*#&*!@ My Mr Green guys aren’t working today
I think the problem for some is that Piper has not publicly rebuked Driscoll, but has chosen to bring correction privately.
I thank God for the men who had the grace to box my ears privately…
Are we really discussing whether or not it is OK if you curse every now and then? Come on, what does the Bible say about the tongue and our speech? Granted, cultures differ about what kinds of words are considered vulgar and cursing, and different people have their own ideas. Yet, have you not found that even non-Christians are sometimes offended by some speech? I cursed regularly and profanely until the day I received Christ. Honestly, since that time I have a hard time speaking those same words. I have let them fly at times, only later to feel bad and repent. Today, this kind of language is so far from my thoughts that if I were to consider cursing I would feel like Spock in the Star Trek movie, “Is it time to use a colorful metaphor?” Here are some scriptures that show how we as Christians are to use our tongues and the types of speech that are acceptable and unacceptable to the Lord:
James 1:26: “If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.”
James 3:1-12: “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.”
Colossians 4:6: “Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.”
Romans 3:10-15: “as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave, With their tongues they keep deceiving,” “The poison of asps is under their lips”; “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”; 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
Philippians 4:8-9: “Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.”
Ephesians 4:29-30: “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
London, does a pastor have to use language that grieves the Holy Spirit and shows their lack of spiritual maturity by their lack of self control, in order to seem “real” to you? –Peace
since I’m sitting around waiting on other people to do things this afternoon I’ll pontificate some more…for London’s edification
Jesus was in all points tempted as we are, yet was without sin. I’m guessing the little boy skinned his knees like other kids…but he didn’t sit and bawl waiting for someone to come and feed him sympathy (but he probably did go to mama for a kiss to make it better)…he probably got splinters and banged fingers, but he didn’t swear…although he certainly was qualified to say dam*it!
JimB (jumping in here) those are excellent words - it’s the renewing of the mind. We shouldn’t even have to parse words on the subject. I venture to say the majority of the folks who come here posting or lurking have no idea of what the language used in ‘real’ cursing sounds like…or so I’ve heard
But setting a watch over our mouths involves so much more than just salty words, eh?
JimB-
Do they HAVE to cuss in order to seem “real” NOPE!
In fact, you know what….I can’t stand Mark Driscoll. I don’t care if he cusses or not cusses….can’t stand his attitude towards women. That says more to me about what kind of man and pastor he is than any 4 letter word he uses.
The point was that I tend to trust pastors more when they aren’t “perfect” than when they are. Some times that means they cuss every once in a while and sometimes they drink and some times they make mistakes and sometimes they over come those mistakes….you know…like normal people.
That was my point…
London,
Pastors AREN’T perfect, but sometimes they can act like they think that they are, and that is just hypocrisy.
Psalms- cute
So…I just want to make sure I’m getting the straight.
Little boy Jesus never…jumped in a mud puddle and caused his mom to have to do more laundry, (nope! He walked over them right):mrgreen: never picked his nose, never tripped over a board and sat down and bawled his head off? Where in the Bible does it say that to sit down and bawl your head off when you’re 4 is a sin?
Oh I know they aren’t perfect JimB. Believe me..that much I’ve figured out
NOTE: In the following response I have edited out any and all remarks, observations, thoughts, arguments, refutations, corrections of logic, illustrations, analogies, scripture quotations, and factual citations that might be deemed offensive, ungodly, unbiblical, or heretical by any ODMs — including Ingrid and Steve Camp:
______________BEGIN
It is the ———————- which ——— so far as ——- This is but one ————- never will ——— As Paul stated: —————- Unfortunately, —————- “look at me, look at me” ——- That’s like ———– , but not —————– Ingrid ————- so —————- and still ———— despite the many —————– blind —————- a rabbit —————– bear skin rug —————- same as ———— then again ————- why, why, why ————- never ————- we see ————.
Camp ———– Ingrid ———– Camp ——– Ingrid ————- so that ——— Piper ——– —————
Nevertheless, —————– Peter ———- John ——— malted milk shake, ha ha ha —— not ———– the S-word ———– heretic ——- in the Congo —— still ——— The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension ——– Johnny Depp ——- I said ——– She said ——— never heard ———- really want to do that? ———- open and shut ——– microwave technology ———— Antichrist ——— comments ———– hear it ———-
So, in summary ——- see ——– loyal ——— Bible ———– Detroit City, Baby —- A.D. 325 ———– Milton Berle.
“Truth is incontrovertible, ignorance can deride it, panic may resent it, malice may destroy it, but there it is” (Winston Churchill)
R. Abanes
jimBo,
what about the verse that declares, “He knows our frame, that we are but dust.” God is well aware of our fallenness and limitations. I don’t think He frets and wrings his hands over some very human ‘colorful’ declarations. The verses you quote are indeed God’s will for us, to work into us by the power of His Spirit, but too often, the pressure from another man to conform to God’s standards replaces the wise timing, wooing, and empowering of God. Remember, the new covenant speaks of no man telling another, ‘Know the Lord!’ for we all will have the Spirit within to direct our paths. What we have witnessed today is a new phariseeism that badgers people into line, often by means worse than the offense they seek to correct.
Finally, Psalm 137:9 states, “O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us–he who siezes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” Isn’t that sentiment and statement more troubling, offensive, and cruel than most cuss words? Yet God allowed that to be a part of His cannon. God understands our hearts, emotions, and outbursts. His grace extends to us as we grow and develop. We as his children need to take a page from his playbook and love each other, demonstrate compassionate understanding, and loads of grace.
Richard, will you fill in the blanks, please?
Rich,
And with that, the thread goes dead. Good job!
filbertz, that’s what’s been nagging at me…if we’re conscientous people, we’ll try to act like Christians and, then, the danger is that we’ll become self righteous and resentful and shut down the work that God wants to do in us…
I remember the man who mentored me as a young believer. Actually, he was instrumental in bringing me to Christ. How did he mentor me? He just lived his imperfect but fruitful life in front of me. We hung out, we talked about anything and everything, we ate too much together, we listened to music together, we examined doctrine together, we led worship together, and I’d like to think that some of his deep and passionate love for Jesus rubbed off on me. Rick died almost 20 years ago. God I miss him.
fil and psalm,
You guys ruined my first comment.
filibertz,
So, are you saying that we should then throw out the parts of the Bible that speak of our rebuking, admonishing, and exhorting one another to godliness? Where is the true balance supposed to be? I would say that we are to extend grace and forebear one another, yet also give each other a kick in the pants when and as the Lord leads, right? There is a time for us to exercise both extremes I think.
NO.
RA
London, well…bawling and nose picking are only human. Somehow it’s difficult to picture little baby Jesus…oh, never mind. But those are not part of the Old Sin Nature. But don’t you think average kids (the ones I know) catch on quick to manipulating to get what they want including sympathy? There’s nothing funnier in human behavior than a little one (only some have the skill) who has learned the power of tears..and how about the ‘he hit me’ cry, which neglects to mention ‘I hit him first?’
I think I’m pontificated out…I want to Richard A. fill in the blanks in his post thot.
Could you all remember our brother-in-law David in prayer. He has fought hard against inoperable cancer and was admitted to the hospital this past Monday with terrible headaches. Tests have shown the cancer has spread to his brain. The family is facing very tough decisions and are all hurting. Thank you.
Praying, E.
Erunner,
You’ve got it!
London and Psalm62,
I remember a Bible prof once saying that he felt that Jesus was perfect at the age of 5, but that didn’t mean the same thing as being perfect at the age of 12. He may have thrown back the flap on the family tent at times at the age of 5, but He was only responsible for what He knew and understood as a 5 year old. Does that make sense to you? I thought it did.
Nomans, JimB and anyone else who will be praying. Thank you.
Erunner…adding my prayers.
Praying E
As for guessing how Christ was in His formative years, I dont feel comfortable even contemplating it. He is perfect, that is all I can come to grips with, barely.
I think your question about exhorting, etc each other to Godliness has lost the meaning it had when written, and has been touched upon here today.
I can exhort my friend to Godliness because we have walked together and he has given me that right. However, a discernment ministry that has made its only form of communication to rebuke and degrade another has not only taken the time to speak into someones life, but has taken up the Pharisaical ideals of better than thou.
But hell, what do i know, im just a backwoods Emerging Lutheran.
WOOOT, wife made Marrionberry Cobbler with Vanilla Ice cream, now that some good eats.
“However, a discernment ministry that has made its only form of communication to rebuke and degrade another has not only taken the time to speak into someones life,…”
Should read:
However, a discernment ministry that has made its only form of communication to rebuke and degrade another has not only NOT taken the time to speak into someones life,
Well today I had a good cry, actually bad cry as the rain comes in the pain was just overwhelming, I am disgusted and totally ticked off at myself. I hate, no Loath showing weakness especially in the world, online I will let it peek out but in the real world I try my very best never to well need, anything. I really put a great deal of effort into this. I did beg God for forgiveness later for having shown weakness.
Then I thought, this is what this silly religion twaddle has taught me all my “Christian” life. You see it spew from every line of the “true believer” crowd that are running the circus and it is a circus. I am ashamed I let it ruin me so. I dont get the entire RWW (Rick Warren Watch). I use this simple analogy if your house is on fire do you care what creed the firefighter is or do you care that they can do their job?
Personally I am so totally sick of religion and the nasty ninnies that cant seem to grasp we already live in a one world order, have been for a few hundred years or more so to speak. We already have a global money system, thank God, it is what took us out of the stone age, and if we do it right we might well take the rest of the world out of their stone age. Why is that bad? About all I can type for now.
Erunner,
Praying!
And I owe you an email…sorry for the delay.
McCain’s not a Maverick, he’s a pragmatist, just like Bush is. Didn’t McCain say he’d use his “pen” to veto ANY bill that came across his desk that was loaded with pork?
These Politicians are slick. My Congressman, Peter DeFazio (D-OR) railed against this “Bush/Paulson” plan for over a week. Hell, he even came up with some really good reasons why the bill was NOT in the best interest of the American people! So did Senator Wyden (D-OR). Why, they even voted against the bill, but not before they helped to load it up with an additional $150,000,000,000 (billion) in additional pork! How do these people sleep at night?
McCain had an opportunity to walk right into the White House by standing with over 80% of the electorate who were against the biggest transfer of debt our Republic has ever known.
Things are NOT going to get better in the short run because they passed this bill, they’ll get worse, and the Democrats will be able to blame all of this on the last eight years of Bush and the Republicans right down to voting day. The Dems completely skunked the Republicans, this was the “October surprise.”
Over one trillion dollars of debt was put onto the backs of our children & grandchildren. Does anyone really believe that this amount won’t double in the next couple of years? And for those who believe that this money is going to be “paid back” to the taxpayers, or, that it’s going to trickle down to the average Joe Blow on main street immediately, I’d suggest they go ask Alice when she’s ten feet tall, because they drank the spiked kool-aid.
I’m just shaking my head over all this.
My vote wouldn’t matter anyways, because Oregon always votes for the Dems, we’re outnumbered here.
Tweedle Dee, Tweedle Dumb.
Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick Maverick….
Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…Thanks, but no thanks…
Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms, Hockey moms…..
R.A.
Oh, and if I hear the phrase “Change” one more time, I think I’m going to puke.
Sis -
We announced some pretty big news this week - in November, we’re going to be going to 2 services. It was pretty much a last-resort choice for us, but it had to be done. The building we’re in is really tiny (the sanctuary only seats 69 chairs, with additional room in the fellowship hall for overflow), so we didn’t really have too many options once we reached a certain threshold.
Sorry I missed you earlier. The week was pretty normal (meaning crazy).
How are things for you?
And, I think that the answer to your question about making disciples is true. Its one thing to teach a class or church service. But, pouring your life into people as Jesus did, who is our example of discipleship, is mentoring I believe. The pastors I know who effectively train leaders in their churches get to know the guys they work with and pour their lives into them.
Jim,
your response resonates to the core of my spirit as truth…
May God bless and increase in number those in leadership who so do.
I’ll be praying E
E
Got you covered………..
I’m just impressed that Abanes referenced The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension.
London:
“And…do you think he ever got an arithmetic problem wrong in Jewish Carpenter school??? I wonder that stuff all the time…amd if he was so perfect as a child, don’t you think the other kids probably bullied him for being a “nerd”??”
I understand the frustration so I spent some time looking into it. I even once heard a pastor preach Jesus was probably no different than the boy who dipped the girls pig tails in the ink bottle. He (the pastor) really disappointed me.
What I found is the culture Jesus was raised in taught their sons to MEMORIZE the Torah and the daughters to MEMORIZE the Psalms and Prophets all before the age of twelve. (CAPS not yelling just emphasizing how different they were than us).
Most all of the Jews could read and write and in general were better educated than the average Greek. The Jewish community was centered around their Synagogue and they highly prized education and the scriptures.
At about the age of 12 boys were separated into the few who had the potential to become Rabbis and those who would not. The best students went on to become Rabbis who would learn under the top teachers and have the ability to not just teach the Torah but also interpret it. Paul was one of those who had the higher learning and the credentials to interpret scripture.
You might notice the only knowledge we have of Jesus is at 12 years old. Why do you think this is mentioned in scripture? Because it showed not only was he above normal for a 12 year old but also had wisdom beyond that of the normal adult Rabbi. The Jewish community who read this knew what was being described.
So did He act like a 5 year old or a normal 12 year old? Probably not!
“Things are NOT going to get better in the short run because they passed this bill, they’ll get worse,…”
Scott,
its sad but true, things will continue to get worse…
I’m so surprised this has received such support,
but then again, not really surprised at all.
Truth, honor, and integrity are the moral fiber of a nation.
The sad fact that these are in short supply today,
greed is running rampant…
and throwing all the money in the world at this problem is not going to solve the problem.
When people return to integrity, honesty, and genuine concern for the well being of others, esteeming the well being of others more highly than their own greed.
Hope you are all well. I have not read the entire thread, but brian, I am sorry to hear you have felt such pain today; hopefully, you are feeling better tonight.
Speaking of mentors: Those I love and respect the most are the people who live their daily life loving, caring and teaching others by example (neighborly love). Also, those in the work place who encourage and help others, give opportunities and show concern for you and your family. God has blessed me with many mentors throughout my life and I am grateful.
That was quite a debate last night! I am so proud of Sarah Palin.
I also wanted to apologize to Ingrid for using the cuss word ‘hell’ in my rant!
E~
Lifting up your brother-in-law David and family in prayer.
May God also use you greatly during this time to minister and to be of comfort.
What did I hear, “Buckaroo Banzai”? Mike, now that’s a great movie! I had to watch it three times to feel like I understood all that was going on. I’ve probably seen it 8 times, but it has been a long time.
“Penny, just remember, wherever you are that’s where you’re at!”
E-Runner..praying for David and your extended family.
Scott, every time I hear the word CHANGE I think of repent. Apply that to this mess on Wall Street and this bail out. I am so disgusted over this bail out. I just wrote to my brother stating that things are going to get much worse. This world is not going to get better. Babylon’s Dread taught us that during our study on Revelation. I wish we could share that study with all those who passed that bill, along with Wall Street and the world… CHANGE cannot come from any man or woman—it must come from the heart.
JimB, re: your 7pm - all your thots here make sense that I remember
but the questions of human nature, old sin nature, volitional sins vs unintended sins…oh my! Now you’ve got me wondering, did baby Jesus lie after he learned to talk up until the time that he knew better? … The only thing I’m pretty sure of was that he would’ve cried if he had colic, but human nature naughtiness that comes natural to our children…that’s a ponder…your professor’s answer is good enough for me tonight - thanks
Hi All…
Scott…I made my phone calls and wrote my emails yesterday and today. The young man who answered the phone at my representatives office was surprised when I told him the name of the legislation….he didn’t know the name of the bill and the number had changed and that it was buried under a bill that began its journey in 2007. I even took the time to read the legislation, which slid through with the name “Paul Wellstone Mental Health Act” with the Economic Recovery portion tacked onto the end of it.
This will sink our country financially. It is the grandest redistribution of wealth this country has ever seen, and our elected representative ignored constituents concerns.
We truly do have taxation without representation in this country. It’s an act of treachery against this country and its peoples.
Even my kids recognized that this was one of the last things Rome did before it fell.
This debt is purchased by the US government to pay off foreign lenders. We will never recover this money because the legislation only requires quarterly “reporting” and is overseen by the Sec. Treasury, the Fed Chairman, and the head of HUD.
now I’m going to lurk here and re-read the prayer thread
God keep
Jim - Abanes brought it up first.
Pastor Michael,
I disagree that John Piper is mentoring at all. mentoring means that you will help people see the right way to go. There is no reason for nor Biblical support for crass language from Mark nor Mr. Tripp.
Has anyone read The Practice of the Presence of God? Just got home from book club and this book was mentioned.
Linnea & Solus, I concur.
This little 2 and half minute clip from Ohio is sure to reinforce your confidence in the spirit of “Bi-partisanship” on display in DC the past couple of days!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9LlsFw2Gk&eurl
Scott…the votes purchased in Ohio come with a higher price tag than in NM…here, all someone needs to do is pass out chicken in line at the polls and the vote is swayed toward the “feeder”.
Hi Linnea!
I was at a book club tonight that also mentioned The Practice of the Presence of God.
You can read the whole thing online here:
http://www.practicegodspresence.com/
HisKid
Thanks!
jimBO,
what in my 6:39 comment would lead you to think I would advocate for throwing out any scripture at all? I simply advocated for considering some verses that help us recognize God isn’t freaked out about some language. Sure, there are verses that encourage us to admonish, provoke to good works, and ‘kick in the pants.’ I would be a fool to toss them out. Yet, if someone puts all their weight on those and ignores other verses that balance them out, they simply become pharisees constantly kicking people in the pants. Apart from an attitude of compassion and understanding, I don’t want anyone admonishing me. Truth needs to be proclaimed, but in love. We’ve got to stop being so overly sensitive to minor infractions at the expense of missing the bigger picture.
Hey folks I would like to ask, as the rainy season starts the physical issues just increase. pretty much every joint feels like a tooth ache or exposed tooth nerve. I can usually blow it off but this level of pain has been going on close to two weeks with the same intensity. It does make it a bit hard to function. Thanks.
As for the rescue plan I am on page 237 some of the oil related qualified products tax section. My reading is a bit off usually I would have had it finished. http://financialservices.house.gov if interested.
brian, thanks for the link
my wife usually knows when it’s going to rain as her pain level spikes. will keep you in prayer.
Hi Centy, Before the ink is even dry, Barney Frank includes this section in the House Financial Services report of the “Rescue Plan.” He blames the whole debacle of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac on the Republicans. Now, I know there’s plenty of blame to go around, however, this is sort of like the pot calling the kettle black. These Dudes never cease to amaze me.
So much for a spirit of “Bi-Partisanship.”
http://financialservices.house.gov/essa/talking_pts_re_hoepa_and_gses_9-16-08.pdf
Cent I do appreciate this, I leaned very heavy on this blog and I do know I sound like a broken record. In real life I am nothing like that. Again thankyou.
Hey JimB- maybe this will help answer your earlier question to me about whether or not I would trust a pastor who may occasionally cusses over one that never does.
It’s midnight…I’m out of town and chose to stay out of town another night than I had to because I wanted to go to church
and I drove over an hour each way to get there 
and we sat on our butts for nearly 3 hours while people were praying for each other. 
That was the whole service. And you know what…I’ll go back next week and the week after and the week after…as long as I get to stay in this town for work. And weirdly…one of the things that attracts me to this place is the fact that the guy that’s leading it has always just been authentic with me. Yeah, I’ve heard him cuss (not during church) just like any of the other folks I work with or hang with (remember I don’t hang out with people that make a habit of swearing every other word so it’s not like they need their mouths washed out with soap) and he’s been just a “normal” when he’s been dealing with me or has hung out with me and some of the guys I work with for coffee. He’s becoming a friend and that has way more impact on my life (and those around me) than being awed by the fact that someone doesn’t cuss.
Hope that makes sense….
London Three hours??
I cant imagine, that is amazing. I have spent personal time like that, very personal. But in a fellowship. There was one group that did spend all night praying, it was amazing, but it was controlled. As for personal prayer with people for personal needs. I do my best in the real world to limit it to a few minutes every few months. Basically I avoid it. I am happy you found such a place.
Bri-
Yep…3 hours. The guy I told you about on the plane, that called that day that things went belly up at work, he’s got this cool little house church thing going on. Pretty small group of folks tonight, but it was cool.
He basically just started off tonight saying he was gonna do something different…and just open up the session by praying to see what God wanted the service to be. That they had stuff prepared, but they would shelf it and just see what happened. They started praying about what to do…and ended up praying and praying and praying and praying and praying and taking a break for cookies (really) and then back to praying some more….it was so much praying that it was hard to figure out when it was my “turn” to jump in (even though I didn’t really want to. I’d agreeded with him to talk about some work “stuff” there) It was pretty awesome because folks there pray in a way I’ve never seen done before. They kinda pray like they would talk.
I avoid the personal prayer stuff too Brian….I sounded like a total idiot when I finally opened my mouth.
But…I think the more important thing is I’m showing up every week…commiting to just seeing what happens and where things are headed. Definately know that’s my top priority right now.
I guess my commitment is to stay off the radar and stay out of the way, way out of the way. I am very happy for you. God bless.
“John Piper is probably the most humble, most truly self effacing man in his position we’ve ever seen.”
Wow, where do we kneel? Even if that moniker is absolutely true, it is irrelevant to the issue unless you forgot to inlude he is without error. This isn’t about Driscoll or Piper or Camp, this should be about a Biblical principle concerning speech and how it seems to be eroding.
London, your 4:12 was an honest question–I’ll take your word for it. I know He did not–could not–because He had no sin nature as we do. The Holy Spirit in us is grieved when we give in to our sin nature and that’s why we are supposed to be in the process of being transformed into His image. We err, we fall short, but we should never be satisfied that it is just the way we are.
Rick,
Beings I wrote the article I know what it was about.
It was about John Piper and the heart it takes to mentor people and the hearts of those who would slander a great man of God for imitating Christ.
brian…praying for you as the rains start, that you would have relief from your pain.
centy…praying for your wife as well.
LINNEA: …..The Practice of the Presence of God
RA: ODM ALERT - ODM ALERT - ODM ALERT.
This is one of those books that makes ODMs skin crawl and elicits shouts of HERESY warning from ODM rooftops. The truth, however, is that it’s a fairly good little source of spiritual stuff, written by a monk named Brother Lawrence. Rick Warren, unfortunately mentions it in PDL, which of course means: a) that’s it’s all part of an Antichrist plot; and b) Warren endorses everything in Roman Catholicism. Lol. Here’s the straight scoop……
________BEGIN
Brother Lawrence (c. 1605-1691) was a Roman Catholic monk whose “Letters and Conversations” (written long before today’s contemplative prayer movement) were published as “The Practice of the Presence of God.” There is a wealth of Christian wisdom in this volume. And many conservative, Bible-based, doctrinally-sound Christians have recommended it.
For example, A.W. Tozer—one of Christianity’s most celebrated preachers—wrote that Brother Lawrence “expressed the highest moral wisdom” in discussing sin and forgiveness (A.W. Tozer, The Warfare of the Spirit, pp. 95-96, quoted in Marilynne E. Foster, “Tozer on the Holy Spirit: A 366-Day Devotional,” under January 1).
Nevertheless, Brother Lawrence is vilified by assorted ODMs and fundamentalists (as well as extreme anti-Roman Catholics) simply because:
1) he was a Roman Catholic; and
2) he used terminology that would eventually bear a passing resemblance to words/phrases employed by New Agers.
But the truth is that Brother Lawrence lived long before there even was any New Age—and before there ever was any contemplative prayer movement with New Age implications. Consequently, he really has nothing to do with the New Age (although some New Agers might appeal to him just as they appeal to the Bible, or any number of other holy/spiritual writings).
BOTTOM LINE MESSAGE: The point of “The Practice of the Presence of God” is to remind us of our need for constant awareness of God.
Brother Lawrence stressed that everything should be done, even menial tasks, “for the love of God, and thus achieve a condition in which the presence of God is as real in work as in prayer” (The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, p. 158).
This is why Warren refers to him in PDL when telling his readers that they should pray “without ceasing.” Christians, according to Warren, should “carry on a continuous, open-ended conversation” with God all day, “talking with him about whatever you are doing or thinking,” even “while shopping, driving, working, or performing any other everyday tasks” (Warren, pp. 87-88).
________________END
I hope this helps.
R.A.
Rich,
Well done…the book had a big impact on me in terms of learning to live continually in the presence of God.
Mentoring is a great discipline. I do not believe having a person who is so careless with his language and exegesis speak at your conference is “mentoring”. Strong disagreement with having Mark Driscoll speak as a leader cannot be accurately described as slander.
I do not believe any of us are above correction, including Dr. Piper. He is a man of God but he is substantly worong on this issue and his deserved credibility has been carelessly lent to Pastor Driscoll. This is a trend which will continue.
I also find the hyperbolic ad hominen descriptions of Ingrid (with whom I have many strong disagreements) and Steve Camp (with whom I disagree on Calvinism) to be unhelpful, even as it concerns the subject you suggested was your theme. And holding Dr. Piper’s obvious credibility and gift of teaching as a reason to provide his decision making with carte blanche, is not only unbiblical but might be selfish and injurious to his own personal sifting.
“the hearts of those who would slander a great man of God for imitating Christ.”
I feel confident that there is only One who can accrurately assess that area.
Richard…thanks.
I will be reading Brother Lawrence’s work.
Shhhh…don’t tell anybody, but the branches of modern day Christian faith emanate from first Jewish, then Catholic roots.
Linnea: I will be reading Brother Lawrence’s work.
RA: Wait, wait, wait! You can’t start yet — you need your hooded black cape, secret Vatican password for access to the tribulation weapons vault, and your pack of “666″ stick-on tattoos (water-soluble, of course). Just send $6.66 to me, c/o Saddleback Church, 666 Coven Way, Lake Forest, CA, 92666.
Rick,
If there’s only One who can assess that why are you and Ingrid and Steve making judgment on Piper?
Kind of odd, don’t you think?
Rick F
you said, “his deserved credibility has been carelessly lent to Pastor Driscoll.”
Personally, I don’t think that Piper’s credibility has been stained much, if any, at all. I honestly don’t think many take the above mentioned ODMS all to seriously. There may be a lot of chatter on/from their sites. But chatter of consequence? It’s more like the noise at recess on the playground.
It’s not the elementary school kids, who are being polled in the upcoming Presidential elections!
Richard
No offense intended here, but honestly, who the hell are Ingrid and Steve?? I never heard of any of these ODM peeps until one day I was checking out this new station called CSN and happened on the PP. If thier reach (The ODM’s) is so far beyong CC circles why is it I never heard of them in my time at the:
LCMS church
4 sq church
or the AofG?
Seems thier reach is limited to CC and the IFB churches.
Rick Freuh…
It seems to me that some of the ODM attacks smack of the same substance Jesus experienced when he walked the earth.
Jesus spent a lot of time with questionable characters, and I might add that the Sanhedrin did their level best to entrap him or at least rob him of any good reputation.
I mean, he let a prostitute anoint his feet with her hair and expensive perfume. He dined with today’s equivalent of the IRS or, after this week, elected members of our political system.
He was willing to lose his reputation and I suspect Piper feels the same way. When your eyes are fixed heaven ward, there’s not much that can be thrown at you in the earthly realm that makes much difference . From my point of view, Piper is a living example of Romans 12:1-2 .
great qoute by Chesterton,
“Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils; by making men afraid of war or alcohol, or economic law, when they should be afraid of spiritual corruption and cowardice.”
Eric,
Ingrid’s dad runs a very conservative Christian radio network –
http://www.vcyamerica.org
Lutheran,
From VCY America: Is your church going purpose driven?
http://vcyamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=132
From VCYAmerica’s “beware of purpose driven” brochure, you can purchase many copies to pass out and for a gift of $15.00 you can get the companion volume to George Bryson’s The Dark Side of Calvinism…. The Dark Side of Purpose Driven.
Hi Linnea and Lutheran,
What is described in that brochure sounds very familiar, but it wasn’t a PDC… That could apply to almost any mega church.
Actually, any size church.
Solus…I agree about any mega church, but I think the brochure was directly aimed at Rick Warren, his practices and how to recognize a church that was becoming a PDC… in 4 easy steps, and how to retake the church in step 1. It promotes activism in taking back a church if it starts to go Warren-esque.
Linnea - “When your eyes are fixed heaven ward, there’s not much that can be thrown at you in the earthly realm that makes much difference ”
that’s worth repeating (& doing)
LOL, no wonder I have never heard of them. I listen to the funky monkey 104.9 LOL (Warning, do not go searching for it, you will be gauranteed not to like it) an Alternative and hard rock station in Tacoma, and Movin’ 92.5 guessing they wont be on those stations anytime soon.
Linnea,
Guess that teaches us all the power of a book.
I love Piper and I think he IS a humble, wonderful man and if what he is doing is mentoring Mark Driscoll, well Praise God then…that said, I think he is wrong in endorsing Mark Driscoll and at the very least that Paul Tripp video (I dont know much about Paul Tripp otherwise). I have mentored tatooed, cussing, drinking, fornicating young people straight out of boot camp and jail but I would never put them in a pulpit while they were still doing these things (except for the tatoo:)…you mentor them first, when they clean up their act and repent for their sins, and become witnesses for Christ (I don’t mean perfection here, don’t take my words out of context) then you can use them as an example and endorse their preaching and their behavior. By the way, these same young people have come back years later and thanked me for loving them where they were but not allowing them in positions to influence others until they were in a better place. Ingrid and Steve’s concerns are right on and all they said was that they cannot endorse Piper anymore…I, for one, completely agree. And though I may be a 46 year old stick in the mud, my 21-25 year old children and son in law completely agree.
And, just because Piper is a great preacher and humble, does not mean that he is perfect or that one cannot be against something he is doing. I know some wonderful men of God who have erred in terrible ways.
Does anyone truly think Piper cares if Ingrid and Steve endorse him? Or is the Fact the Holy Spirit and Christ do not enough?
Eric,
you said, “Does anyone truly think Piper cares if Ingrid and Steve endorse him? Or is the Fact the Holy Spirit and Christ do not enough?”
NO, I don’t think most do. People can say “well, i don’t support Piper anymore” all they want and God will just continue to not only support him, but bless him.
It’s crazy to think that our puny little endorsements mean anything.
Bryan, good call, kinda like Joshua and Caleb. The isrealites didn’t endorse them but God had other plans.
I don’t think anyone here is saying Piper is perfect. Nor is he above criticism. As for me, I’m concerned with the “all or nothing” lense by which so much of the church evaluates itself. Of course, if we are going to honest, we all do it to some degree. Everyone has there own standards of acceptability, much to the disagreement with the other.
The endless circle of criticism. It is really starting to get old in my ears. Perhaps this is part of why “they” love Jesus, but hate the church. And yet, you really can’t have one without the other. The days are becoming more frequent that I wish I could.
There appears to be little room for speaking a critique while still endorsing. In other words, there appears to be very little charity within the body of Christ.
I am soooooo apalled at this man. I will not say pastor because based on what I read, I saw NO evidence of a humble shephard who has been ordained by God to be a pastor. As a young girl in my 20’s, I am shocked that pastors are starting to act this way, and what men this man will be “making” in his congregation. Men of foul language and repulsive hatefulness overflowing from their hearts when they are rebuked I think. What hatefulness I have read on this blog. People, repent for speaking so ugly about your brother and sister. Pastor you will not be blessed by God if you continure in your slandor. Be slow to speak and slow to anger. Even if Ingrid is wrong, you have been a terrible example of a Godly, gentle, loving, man that should be characteristics of a man in authority. Repent, and seek GOD’s will on this subject, not your own heart, “for the heart is deceitfully wicked.” Repent pastor.
Dana, are you criticizing Driscoll, Piper or the commenters?
Michael said a key point “thread is to talk about how mentors have affected our own lives…or how the lack of mentors have affected us and really, our whole culture.”
To my shame and contempt I have sought this, which denotes need another contemptible thing to show. I always marvel at the fact people actually get Mentored, or even talked to for more then a few minutes each month. If I had to put one word on my church experience in this are as many it would be aloneness. And Michael is truly correct it has totally effected our culture and has ruined lives. Granted that is irrelevant but it does happen.
I blame the public schools
I blame the teleevangelists
I blame Orville Redenbacher
I blame study Bible marketers. Ain’t the KJV good enough, darn it?
BTW…my personal blog address is now http://briandblog.com.
The other site, briandblog.wordpress.com, I now consider to be a transitional blog, and I won’t be updating that site any longer.
“I blame study Bible marketers. Ain’t the KJV good enough, darn it? ;)”
Nope
It’s not?
Darneth.
Hey. Look what I found:
http://www.cmt.com/shows/series/hulk-hogan-celebrity-wrestling/cast.jhtml
Look what else I found.
A post from monergism.com - “Solus Christus: Christ Alone”
http://www.monergism.com/monthly_focus/solus_christus_christ_alone.php
It’s difficult for me to believe that people are still bickering over the Driscoll and Piper thing. Can you say “choke on a gnat”. Again it’s sunch an “American Christianity” response. While some find Driscoll obscene and Piper’s acts reprehensible, Thousands of Americans are sleeping in the streets homeless, and hungry. Many are men and women who fought to defend our rights. Now to me, that is truly obscene..and yet we aren’t offended in the slightest.
It’s time we all, including me focus on the truly important issues
Steve, you’re right.
Not that what’s going on with Driscoll isn’t important, but there are more important issues all of us Christians need to attack, instead of attacking one another.
I for one think I’m in need of God to wake me up out of my hardhearted
ness towards homeless people.
BrianD
Me too…May I lend my big and hearty amen to your post
Steve,
The church I go to puts such an emphasis on service, not as slavery to the church leaders, but as part of living out our faith in Jesus.
Meanwhile, much of my life I’ve been a selfish bastard.
I told one of the leaders that, and that I was hoping I would go from being a selfish bastard to being a giving, others-centered Christian.
He got a chuckle out of my selfish bastard comment
Oops.
I think I broke Michael’s rule against cussing
BrianD
Again Amen. Pastors are partly to blame for the selfish attitude many of the people of God experience. WE have preached self help and to people’s flet needs for so long that we’ve become addicted to our selves. It’s no wonder people move resllessy from church to church chanting “I’m not being fed…Im not being fed”.
I quit preaching sermons long ago and started teaching about God, his holiness, and righteousness because I’ve concluded the bible has a lot more to say about God than it does me/us.
The good news, Is people like you are waking up to that reality. We are sick of sermons that focus on “me” because we are just plain sick of “me”
Your selfish bastard statement reminds me of a Rum drink I used to drink once in a while called a “Sufferin’ Bastard. One morning after a night of partying and drinking one after another, I found out why they called it “Sufferin Bastard”
BTW that was about 35 years ago!
I think the cussing prohibition is limited only to the “open blogging” thread
In a strange way Steve I have left groups, for a time for the opposite reason. When I sense, “feel” that I might be leaning to much, I E asking for prayer to much asking to many questions or bothering people asking them if I can help I tend to leave. When I was a younger Christian I was told to go away, which did make it easier. Dont get me wrong I dont sit waiting to be a pest I measure very very carefully each contact. What when where who how I will interact and what I will say to avoid any misunderstanding. When I first became a “Christian” I was much more free about my interactions until I learned what a horrid sin that was, or it seem to be gauged by the response.
I can honestly say that I have never “left” because my “needs” where not being met. For the most part or say the last 20 some odd years, I have been a christian for almost thirty years now I have not had expectations in faith based groups as related to me. Others yes but not me personally I always saw that is unreasonable and totally selfish on my part. I will admit I did get upset and even defensive when I saw others wronged. Childish on my part but I tend to lean that way. I do admit I would have liked a mentor etc. I do hope you and your family have a nice week. Briand I like your blog and your posts also. Sorry about being a broken record on these issues I just cant seem to get off the merry go round.
Our biggest asset as Americans is also our biggest stumbling block. We are a fiercely Self sustaining society. We rely soley on self to make things happen. As long as that is our focus that we will have problems. Hillary was onto something with her “It takes a village” statement, yes I joined in the Conservative people bashing her for it, but truly it takes a village to raise a Child, and it takes a Village (Church) to raise a Christian, and That willage must be outwardly focused on the society as a whole (I know most churches have this outward focus and get the short end of the stick so that we can make a point of attacking the lazy s in the church) The problems in churches are the same as the problems in America, most see thier tithe as being their contribution to ending the hunger of the homeless. Money is a blessing, but without many boots on the ground it is worthles.
Steve, pardon my tardiness in responding to you.
I need to hear about God and others, not about me. I need to hear it and everything else as the Bible presents it, not as man presents it.
brian, thanks for your kind words! My blog is a work in process. I hope it will glorify God and bless, edify, educate and (occasionally) entertain His people, not me screaming into empty cyberspace
Eric, I grew up with it.
“We are sick of sermons that focus on “me”, because we are just plain sick of “me”.
I am glad God isn’t. My experience with the CC churches I attended was “we” were always put down. And the pastor would always knock himself too, and say bad things about himself,and then would say, “give God the glory”. If you said a compliment to the pastor like, “I liked your sermon”, it was “praise the Lord”. He could of just said “thank you”. A loving father focuses his love and attention,etc. on his children to attend to their needs and delights in them. What kind of father (God) would say, “focus on me, I’m sick of you”. Pastors are partly to blame for the “selfish attitude” many of the people of God experience? I think they are partly to blame for alot of Christians who are emotionally neurotic.
Sue, I’d also blame Christians who are willing to buy into that system and the Christian consumer market that propagates it as well as the pastors who preach it.
Sue -
A lot of that can definitely be false humility, but in the cases where it isn’t, why shouldn’t the pastor give glory to God? It was His Scripture, and His empowerment for the word to go forth. It seems to me that when said in sincerity, “Praise the Lord” might be the best possible response.
Sue
I may have misunderstood you. But IU wasn’t talking about pastors in a show of false humility putting ourselves and others down, I was speaking about the focus of the bible and teaching, i.e that sermons should be more about God and not “how I can have a prosperous Christian life in just three easy steps” or “3 steps to a healthy marriage” or those type of sermons. The bible talks about
god, His Holiness, righteous and the focus should be upon those issues. Basically when we take a God centered message and morph it into a Me centered message we are making the bible say in the present what it didn’t mean when it was written.
I think we should put the focus of worship, and christianity back where it is suppose to be: upon God and not my/our perceived or felt needs
I hope I clarified my statements to you
Brian
I would like to respond to your comments but frankly, most of your comments are difficult for me to understand. There are so many underlying tones that make your main point confusing and sometimes, down right odd, or wrong. You have found a safe place here and for that I am thankful but I sincerely apologize that I am and have been unable to dialogue or respond to you/ with you on this issue and other comments you have made or directed toward me in the past
Good point BrianD.
I love hearing Dionne Warwick sing. And she publicly thanks God for her voice and ability to use it. She also says “thank you” when people clap and let her know what a great job she did in delivering the songs she sings. When I help my kid with homework and drill him for a test, yes, credit goes to me for helping and he wouldn’t have done as well if I hadn’t helped, but I still say to him “great job”, “I’m proud of you” when he scores a good grade. IMO when pastors, etc. partner with God both are involved and deserve credit.
Steve - thanks for clarifying your statements
That is fair Steve I couch much of what I say to try to avoid offending. My basic point of my last post is that I have left fellowships for a short time because I think I leaned to much not because I was not “fed”. I actually do not expect the local fellowship to feed me, neither spiritually or literally. I learned that after many years of being a Christian. You do not ever have to apologize I come across as cryptic but as plain as I can say it, the church has literally broken my heart right in half and it hurts and it just does not seem to heal. And I am ashamed that I let my heart get broken. That about sums up most of my posts. God bless you and yours.
Brian, I have had my heart broken many many times…and am sure it will happen many more times…should I be ashamed of that? Ashamed that I opened myself up to love others?
Hoppy
Hoppy- so the solutionm then to your homeless issue?
Doesn’t it just seem like an overwhelming problem at times and that’s why people tend to just do what someone else said and just contribute money or canned goods?
There’s so many needs that sometimes people just freak out about it.
Of course not Dusty I guess in my personal experience the very few times I have been in the boat of needing it was obviously some type of manipulation or whining for attention. I was never ashamed that I opened myself up to others I was ashamed that opening myself up put a burden or an inconvenience on another.
I understand what you meant now Brian…I’ve been feeling that way myself lately.
But I think we should trust our friends and loved ones when they tell us we are not a burden and go ahead and reach out to them for love and help. Is that right?
Brian, I relate to you saying that the church broke your heart in half and it hurts and it just does not seem to heal. Religion has such a profound effect on us in all areas - mentally, emotionally,etc. I never dreamed it would effect me so negatively as it did. Perhaps I can be of some hope to you when I say I’m doing better than I was.
Dusty Sue thanks for your kind words. It is not like I wont reach out or do not wish to, it is more like the few times I have I pulled back a bloody stump where my hand was.
I will let it out, this is not easy and I wont / refuse to cause others to fall away. I would rather God take me out than damage another souls faith, I really mean that. But I struggle with the evangelical faith, not so much with the Catholic, EO, Anglican, Pres. Or Lutheran faith, but the American Evangelical faith I struggle with. I will confess I went and saw “Religulous” it actually strengthened my faith in Christ. I am sure Mr. Maher (sp) did not have that in mind.
As funny as it may seem, back when I was ready to give up on the faith it was a group of Atheists that suggested I stay with it and not leave the faith because of hurt or emotional reasons. Basically my “christian family” would have found solace in me being an apostate. One online Atheist even gave me his number from another country and would have even prayed with me because he cared about me. I find that strange, irrelevant but strange.
The day I was basically “apostated” from the ministry I served with for a decade basically thousands of hours there was not even an echo. I guess what hurts is to realize none of what I did had no meaning what so ever. And it did not have any meaning what so ever. I always saw myself as leaving a legacy with my students and for the betterment of those with developmental disabilities. It is hard to find out that none of it had any use what so ever, and basically I failed spiritually. I will admit that hurt, I agree it should not of, water off a ducks back, but it did.
Thanks all for your kind words this has been helpful as usual. God bless.
Brian said,”I guess what hurts is to realize none of what I did had no meaning what so ever. And it did not have any meaning what so ever. I always saw myself as leaving a legacy with my students and for the betterment of those with developmental disabilities. It is hard to find out that none of it had any use what so ever, and basically I failed spiritually.”
Brian, much of what we do here on earth may never be recognized or acknowledged…don’t discredit what you have done for God…He sees and it touches Him….you will get to see the use of it, the impact it made on your students, one day….even if you have to wait to see it in heaven with Jesus’ arm around your shoulder smiling ear to ear….it will come…
keep doing what you know God has set before you my friend…you are much loved and respected.
There you go again with the name calling: “most holy”, “most reverend”. Why can’t you just address the issue and dispense with the name calling?