As most of you know by now, I find political discussions about as edifying as a Dave Hunt lecture on Calvinism and just about as spiritually profitable.
However, instead of kicking against the goads, I'm going to set this thread up where these discussions can take place, while posting resources I think are valuable to interject a biblical balance on these topics.
The first resource is from Michael Patton on the current economic crisis.
"With our supposed securities intact, we then give our left over allegiance to the Lord. But it is at this time that we find we have broken the first commandment—”You shall not have any other gods before me.” Sure, many of us don’t have golden idols on our mantle and we don’t literally bow before the alter of another God, but, nevertheless, we have become polytheists. No, strike that. We have become “henotheists.” While polytheism is a worldview that worships many gods, henotheism has one main God with many other smaller gods that often come before the main God depending on the need. As Christians, we can worship Jesus, but have a stronger allegiance to these lesser gods—the “wall” of wealth and the supposed protection it provides."
Thank you, Michael! Good article by the way.
Here’s a mind blower http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfIV1ntYggc
Is this the ‘October surprise?’
Scott,
Stop dominating this thread!
ROFL!!!!!! Can anyone say nut-job? ROFL!!!! Sometimes I love these guys…..
RA
This election is by no means over!
The DOW down 1/4 of its value and the country turning to socialism for safety. President Obama a real possibility and post-modern thought dominating more of the Church. It’s time to pray folks. But then again to which god? Michael Patton hit the nail on the head when he suggested we are hedonists with many little gods that we put in front of our big God to satisfy our needs.
There is a beast… ridden by a harlot…
What we see happening in American politics is just the way I have been describing… the whore of consumerism rides into town on the graces of the beast of political power…
So America has had two major crisis in the last 8 years and both became the occasion for Republicans to expand the role of government. How subtle is the Dragon he seduces the party of small government into some of the greatest power grabs in history… Oh they are benign enough but here is what they amount to…
Government says….” I will save you” and we are so drunk with the whore of Bablyon that we just say…. “hey way to go”
One day it will be too late….maybe even soon…
sounds like inner witness stuff to me……….
Dreadly - by “2 major crisis” do you mean when W got “elected” the first time and then when he got elected again?
Scott - saw this the other day and thought you’d like it.
http://despair.com/government.html
Centy,
LOL!
Michael,
I just wanted to give you a heads up. I am sure that many folks read your blog through Google Reader, at least I do, and it is extremely difficult to read yellow text on white.
I wouldn’t be surprised if at least 50% of your readership is through a RSS feed so it might be worth considering when choosing text colors.
Thanks,
Jk
LONG LIVE RON PAUL!
Dread forgets that the Democrats are the majority party in both houses of Congress that make the laws.
Too many Obama commercials make one’s political thinking fuzzy and after so many, some folks start to believe them.
Interesting video Scott. For the more technically minded here are the Filings and Dockets for this case: BERG v. OBAMA.
It will be very interesting to see how the judge finds with respect to Sen. Obama and the DNC’s motion to stay discovery (Document 15) and Berg’s Response to that motion (Document 18).
-M
Scott, re the video. Interesting information but I don’t think it will make one iota of difference to those who are already for Obama and those who are just tired of the same old same old. It just shows him for a true politician.
The corrupted business of politics is never going to bring about the real change that is needed.
Excuse my cynical side. Politics brings out the flesh in me.
Just give me Jesus. Maranatha!
Has anyone seen Greta Van Sustern and Joe Biden in the same room at the same time?
I think they are sharing eyes and forehead. Like a snap together face, only they went halfsies and they share that portion of the face, because they look creepily alike - but only from the top of the cheekbones to the forehead. It’s crazy, I tells ye.
I do not think one should patronize a plastic surgeon who accepts coupons.
Acorn registered Mickey Mouse to vote this past summer!
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/mickey-mouse-tries-register-vote/
What in the world is this election coming to???
I see there was much discussion about a special by Sean Hannity on Obama and his “dark” past. That particular episode aired a few weeks ago. The link is included and you will see the info. beneath the large picture of Obama.
http://www.foxnews.com/hannitysamerica/
ERunner…in my state we have a history of voter fraud….many dead people vote here. We are one of the states under investigation. On a local talk radio show, some people called in to report that their children had been employed by ACORN and as employees, were told that ACORN would pay them $3.00 for a democratic registration and nothing for a republican registration. His daughter witnessed republican registrations being ripped up or thrown away while many democratic registrations were falsified and turned in for the $3.00 reward. Any semblance of a fair election is an illusion I believe.
Babylon’s Dread likely forgets NOTHING!
I’m reading “The Faith of Barack Obama” by Stephen Mansfield, who wrote “The Faith of George W Bush.”
It’s been fascinating and disgusting at the same time.
There’s also a chapter (5) that goes through the faith of W, McCain and Hillary. That was quite a read!
JTK - Stephen Mansfield was my husband’s pastor before we got married. Just thought I’d throw out that tid-bit!
This election is going to be an absolute mess. The voter fraud taking place is truly amazing.
McCain needs to step it up a couple notches and start asking Obama for some answers.
This morning on the news it was reported that a first grade class in San Francisco was taken from school on a field trip to witness their female teacher marry another female conducted the mayor. It sickens me.
Greta gets nasty comments like that because she is not as pretty as the other news/weather gals (and older). She has an excellent, very successful show with very high ratings. Have you noticed some of these “weather girls” lately? I’m just waiting for that top button to pop off!
Solus…I have an odd feeling you are not the only one waiting!
Solus….
Rush Limbaugh calls them “Info Babes”
I’d like to know if those of us who tend to vote for pro-life candidates think we’ve gotten good value from the Bush administration. Did abortion rates (per capita) go down during the last eight years?
Solus
Maybe the National Weather Service needs to institute a loose button warning.
Bob -
I never got that email. Do I need to expect anything?
MDSF -
The data isn’t completely up to date, but yes - it appears abortions have dropped during the Bush years.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
And that brings up a good point. It’s amazing to me that abortion hasn’t been more debated in this campaign. Rick Warren actually got the candidates to say more on the subject than Tom Brokaw, Gwen Ifill, and Jim Lehrer combined.
Tim
I am so sorry! I got so busy last week that I forgot! The question that I had has since been answered. Please forgive me.
E
Bob, yes, the loose button warning from the Weather Institute will have a huge (huge!) effect on the upcoming election.
Nonnie:”The corrupted business of politics is never going to bring about the real change that is needed.
Excuse my cynical side. Politics brings out the flesh in me.
Just give me Jesus. Maranatha!”
me too and that’s the truth of it
But since this is a politics thread, here’s 2cents from my neck of the woods:
…both parties are sooo far from making job one representing the interests of the citizens of this country. Obama is, I believe, to the Democrats what Bush is to the Republicans…the only time he’s out in front is when there’s a microphone and a camera…I can’t vote Obama as it would be an emotional vote in total ignorance…I guess I’m going to vote McCain simply because he, occasionally bucks his party…dunno
Bob -
No problem at all! Blessings.
aaand 2 cents on the info babes…
Doesn’t it strike anyone else as grotesque to see sometimes gruesome news items delivered in this manner? Irregardless of whether they’re pretty looking, the words are coming out of faces that aren’t even real…capped teeth, glossed and plumped lips, painted on faces and mock expressions of concern…I seriously doubt that half of them can recall what they’ve just read/said when the light goes off…and half of them sound like adolescents…and furthermore…
Tim –
Thanks for the Gutmacher link; it looks like abortion rates went down, but not as much as they did during the Clinton administration. I might gently suggest that on the abortion issue we’ve gotten nothing of measurable value from the Bush administration.
I got a call from the local Republicans (and posted about it here); they didn’t ask about abortion at all. That’s probably typical for a campaign after the convention: it’s an issue that motivates the Republican base, but doesn’t matter as much to undecided voters.
Gee, I’m sorry - Greta looks nothing at all like Joe Biden, I’m completely mistaken. Her hair plugs are nowhere as noticable as Joe’s. Also please disregard my extensive dialog on her abilities as a commentator and analyst.
I am sure there is no photographic evidence that either she or Joe B. ever had work done at a sharply discounted rate by a barely qualified plastic surgeon - though that Doc on the Simpsons would be my guess, hypothetically.
Also, please do not note that Obama’s ears make him look like a taxi driving down the street with its doors open.
And do not mistake McCain’s combover for anything except what it is. A combover. But keep this in mind: If he can’t raise his hands above his shoulders, someone is doing that TO him, every morning.
I don’t think I want to live in a country where someone can abuse another’s coiffure in that manner - especially our citizens with physical limitations.
If this year’s campaign in any way poses legitmate answers to the problems facing our country - from either side - I have completely misunderstood the world around me.
I really like that Nextel commercial where the firemen are running the government. I think that’s more what the Founding Fathers intended.
This pretty much sums up the state of this election…. take the two minutes and listen!
http://www.bpmdeejays.com/upload/hs_sal_in_Harlem_100108.mp3
My quick comments on the current topics.
1.) I think Greta is hot - perhaps not Pussycat Dolls hot, but a mighty fine looking woman.
2.) If I have to watch a news reader, I would rather be looking at a babe than Dan Rather.
3.) Surgical abortions may be down, but if you include all of the new “at home” chemical abortions, I am sure that they are way up.
Sunamijim… Amazing! And, hey, no cussing!!!
Whatever happened to paying off your mortgage?
This nonsense of government getting involved in these home loans or buying them out is completely wrong. The banks who gave those loans need to step up to the plate and resolve the issues with the homeowners. The banks and the borrowers are both at fault. I can understand the banks lowering an interest rate (FIXED) to 5% or extending the loan to a 40 or even 50 year loan to lower the monthly payment, but bailing any homeowner out is wrong. And, if they lower the interest rate on those loans, they need to do for all homeowners.
Many, many people cashed the equity out of their homes rather than focusing to pay down the loan. Some, apparently forgot, you have to pay the money back.
Most Americans pay their mortgages and try to do what is right. To give these others a free ride is very wrong and is sending the wrong message.
MLD –
Can you help me find numbers to back up your assertion regarding at-home chemical abortions? I assume you’re referring to RU-486, etc.
Free ride? Are you kidding? That is what BHO’s tax plan is all about “Rebate checks” to folks who are on welfare and don’t pay taxes!
Hairplugs for the poor, is the policy that I am getting behind.
SC –
The bank that issues the mortgage is typically not the one that sets the rates, so once the paperwork is done the issuing bank no longer has a relationship with the borrower apart from handling money going one way or the other. That’s part of what caused this problem.
MLD”2.) If I have to watch a news reader, I would rather be looking at a babe than Dan Rather.” You watch the news being read? :8
sigh…
I’ve got an idea - since the ladies are not entertained … why don’t they combine the news report with that celebrity dance contest? Then we’d just watch their lips - or not - as they swing gracefully passed the camera?
well…no more inane old people comments here - off to do chores
God keep
how cum colon plus eight doesn’t produce shock in my smilies? :8:
MDSF,
I’m talking about right now. Rather than the government buying out loans and this “bail out” … forcing banks (or a bank(s)) to make these adjustments to get us all out of this mess so the tax payer is not footing the bill.
MDSF,
I don’t have the data, but since you can buy this stuff on the internet or pick it up at the clinic and take at home, I am sure that it does not show up in the abortion “stats”.
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=161395&aid=336064&aparam=morning after pill&scinit1=morning after pill
http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/medical-ab.htm
MLD,
You think Greta is hot!
The woman is a testament to plastic surgery, one of the things gone horribly wrong with our culture.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/11/scotus.bush.gore/link.greta.monday.jpg
SC –
As I understand it, the government is actually taking preferred stock in exchange for bad loans, so in essence the banks that are holding the bad mortgage-backed securities are in fact losing money without fear of bankruptcy.
If the government were just buying up bad mortgages as originally advertised you’d see bank stocks rising now, because they’d be able to walk away from these bad deals. As it is they’ll be losing the adjusted value of the securities.
The taxpayer is footing the bill for a reorganization; it’s a major change.
One of the bad things that will happen, though, is that the government will end up having to sort out foreclosures, etc. and mortgage interest rates will go up. This means that real estate values will come down because it will be harder to sell a house, partly because of the supply of poorly-managed foreclosed properties on the market, partly because of the reduced prices of foreclosed properties, and partly because responsible people with high credit scores will not be able to get good rates.
In short, this is not a bailout, and taxpayers are not footing the bill for irresponsible lenders and borrowers the way you suggest.
Put bluntly, if the banks have to eat all these mortgages many of them will go out of business, and tie up money in the rest of their business. There will be a run on banks as depositors try to get their money, and business will stop across the board.
MLD –
Yes, I know what they are, but if there aren’t any numbers then the surgical abortion numbers from Gutmacher can’t be adjusted sensibly.
It looks like the result is that those of us who voted for Bush because of his stance on abortion got nothing for our vote.
I’m going to remember this the next time somebody suggests that I should vote for a Republican because he’s pro-life.
MDSF,
I have been saying for the past 2 months, that the Republicans pander to Christians with no intent to deliver and the Christians are the biggest interest group (herd of sheep) out there and they eat it up.
Christians need to do more thinking and realize that there is much at stake and it isn’t always what Dobson thinks or tries to guilt us into.
MDSF,
Just a thought on my part but I bet that these abortion pills are probably bought on line in great quantities by college fraternities
I want to add a comment to the bailout debate.
There seems to be some misunderstanding about where the money actually went.
Here is where it went:
To the corporations which purchased land to build developments.
To the developers who purchased the land to build their homes.
To the pavement and concrete people who paved the developments.
To the electricians who wired the developments.
To the plumbers who brought water to the developments.
To the framers who roughed up the homes.
To the siding people who put the exteriors on the homes.
To the masons who put the rock on the homes
To the landscapers who made the exteriors look good.
To the sheet rock specialist.
To the cabinet installers.
To the painters.
To the advertisers who promoted the homes.
To the sales people who sold the homes.
To the appraisal folks who valued the homes.
To the bankers who wrote the loans to purchase the homes.
To the closers who witnessed the signing of the home.
To the insurance firms who insure both the construction and finished homes.
To the furniture stores which furnished the homes.
To the Home Depots, Lowes which sold the shiny new bar-b-cues for the homes.
To the people who resold their home at a profit to purchase the new home.
To the various companies and vacations resorts where those who refinanced their home spent their money.
To the grocery stores and such where all these people spent their money they received from working on the homes.
Finally to the Greedy, yes overpaid, hedge fund and banker types who saw an opportunity to make a but more money.
So the money went to make all of us feel good about our work and provide for our homes.
The only problem with this picture is all of this money was, for the most part, spent yesterday and is due tomorrow.
The nation borrowed on the future to pay for today, such is “capitalism.”
Just a thought or two
Also could be known as Keynesian Economics at its best.
PS. I believe someone about a month or two ago challenged my position that we were headed to the biggest bank failures since the 30s. Oh well I was wrong!
MLD,
Greta is hot!!???
The woman is a testament to plastic surgery… one of the things most wrong with our culture!
“Viva la technology” ?!!??
Meet the real Greta:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/11/scotus.bush.gore/link.greta.monday.jpg
Moderator.
Stop sleeping and release my post from blog purgatory.
At least one of the duplicates anyway.
MLD & MDSF -
Without a doubt, most Republicans are a sorry disappointment on abortion. They deliver a thing or two & then devote their time to lipservice.
However, the abortion issue (for me) is still very much a dealbreaker. Republicans (overall) may not do much, but anything they do is a heck of a lot more than most Democrats (overall). There are exceptions to the rule of course…I’d advise people to look at the individual candidate rather than the party affiliation. I’d support a pro-life Democrat over a pro-choice Republican any day of the week.
Regarding Obama & McCain…they each have some pretty clear records on the issue. This is one area (for once) that the history is pretty clear on - I just wish they’d talk about it.
Oh…and just a word to the wise. Perhaps our married men would be well-served not discussing the attractiveness of TV newscasters.
Hey AB,
Re Greta,
See, Infant Baptism isn’t all that we disagree on!
Tim,
You are right - back to the Pussy Cat dolls.
MLD -
You might be missing the point…
My point is people must pay back the money they borrowed, not be bailed out. However, it must be done fairly. By lowering the interest rate (a fixed rate) and extending the term of the loan shows mercy and compassion and allows the homeowners to keep their home and the bank makes money longer and solves a lot of problems for all of us.
These candidates (both): It’s obvious, they are so out of touch with most Americans, they do not even realize a huge percent of these homeowners simply withdrew $100-300,000.00 from their home equity loans and bought toys or traveled, etc.
Now, what kind of message does this send to the people who worked a 40-50 hour week all their life, paid their bills, drove a used car, saved for luxuries, paid down their mortgage over 30 years and only borrowed what they could pay back at the current interest rate?
The taxpayer (people who work) is going to foot most of the bill regardless what happens. I don’t believe for one minute that any money will be paid back. Look what happened a few DAYS after that investor company received their “bailout funds”… they went on a lavish spending spree at a resort spending almost half a million dollars!! Was anyone fired? In a few weeks we will probably hear the credit card companies wanting to be bailed out. Anyone who is paid via credit card will be hurting. If people can’t pay their mortgages they certainly can’t (and won’t) pay their credit cards.
It’s very confusing and an endless mess. It can only be straightened out from inside the heart with God’s help. We (people) have to change. We are all guilty to some degree. All this makes a person re-evaluate his/her own life.
Yes, we are all guilty. Charge it! Even our churches encourage (and make arrangements) so we can charge donations on plastic. My parents and grandparents never lived like this. What has happened to us? God help us.
Blessings
MLD,
Obviously you didn’t look at my link!
Maybe she qualified for the old axiom, “If the barn needs painting (or major reconstruction), paint it! (re-build it)”.
a huge percent of these homeowners simply withdrew $100-300,000.00 from their home equity loans and bought toys or traveled, etc.
Solus,
Evidence?
Unless your home is worth a million, I don’t know of anyone who’s withdrawing that amount of money. The banks are prohibited from
loaning more than a certain percentage of a home’s value.
Believe me, there’s plenty of blame to go around with this one. It’s not just homeowners, not by a long shot. Some were duped
by unscrupulous brokers who promised them the moon and then skipped town. There was a housing asset bubble about 3 years ago that, structurally, caused much of the problem.
Plus, capitalism thrives on greed.
I like the old saying, “What’s the difference between capitalism and communism? In communism man exploits man. In capitalism, it’s
vice versa.”
Michael indicated a few weeks ago that one of the additional underbellies of our faltering economy (caused by defaults in the subprime mortgage market) was going to be the HELOC failure.
I abhor talking politics. However, I’d like to post my church’s sermon from this past weekend, along with the Q&A afterwards with three of the elders and a local seminary professor. You may or may not agree with what was said, but hopefully they will be in some way helpful to you:
http://sojournchurch.com/sermon/christ-for-president-gods-gospel-and-human-politics
http://sojournchurch.com/sermon/christ-for-president-ask-anything
Lutheran,
Those who purchased their homes 5-15 years ago can easily take that amount out of their home via a home equity loan. Banks were calling begging owners to refinance and take cash out (those with major equity). The trick is paying it back.
Evidence? Lutheran, check out the prices of homes in the timeline I mentioned and the prices 2-3 years ago. Notice the rapid rate they climbed. This is why so many people were “flipping” houses in 90-days for the past several years… a quick buck to the tune of $50-100k.
My credit card company sends me blank checks every month hoping I will cash one. Imagine all the college students getting these blank checks in the mail. Most of the children today do not know better and they will probably never know what it is like to be debt-free. We must teach our children well.
Lutheran, a home in many areas across this country can decrease/increase (depending on the location/market) $100k in a few weeks… it’s crazy.
Have a nice day!
MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR BREAKING NEWS STORY ON PALIN’S TIES to an extrem, radical right wing group, “Alaskan Independent Party.”
This is very serious, folks. As someone who has studied the Patriot/Militia Movement (see my “American Militias,” IVP), I can say that we really need to look at this issue.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/aip_founder_professed_hatred_f.php
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/10/10/palin_chryson/
http://i2.democracynow.org/2008/10/13/max_blumenthal_on_sarah_palins_radical
Quotes from the radical right-winger who founded the organization now linked to Palin and her husband: “I’m an Alaskan, I’m not an American. And I hate America and all her damned institutions.” (AIP founder, Joe Vogler). And earlier this year, AIP Vice Chairman Dexter Carter urged party members to “infiltrate” the two major parties.
This is real investigative journalism, not some crackpot work on Obama being an Arab or a secret Muslim. This is so important, I’ll probably be risking life and limb by posting a major story on it at my blogs.
R. Abanes
Thanks, Solus!
In my part of the world, a house is pricey at 200K.
Blessings to you.
Solus,
I get what you’re saying. The banks encouraged people to run up their LOCs.
Then the asset bubble, and CRASH.
What ticks me off is that the government shouldn’t be in bed with financial institutions — but they are. You wouldn’t believe
the lobbying that goes on in DC. IMHO, the government should
be there to protect the citizens, instead they’ve been in collusion
with these groups, IMHO. All in the name of “economic growth.”
Richard -
Don’t waste your time. It’s pretty well documented Palin’s *husband* was a member of the AIP; not Palin herself. Read some of the other side of the story.
Richard -
Even the NY Times said that Palin wasn’t a member of the AIP.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/04/us/politics/04party.html?ref=politics
Richard -
One more thing…you wrote: “This is so important, I’ll probably be risking life and limb by posting a major story on it at my blogs.”
I hope this is sarcasm. Since when has anyone gotten punished for publishing a hit-piece on conservative politicians over the last 8 years? It’s practically been a national pasttime.
Tim - Palin supported AIP, sending a video from her Gov’s office to them. Moreover, there is more info coming out about her attendance of various functions, etc. etc. etc. You have to remember that for decades a large part of the entire militia, patriot, tax-protester, states rights movement has been filled with ultra-conservative “Christians.” It kind of all makes sense. There’s a lot here to pick apart.
RA
Tim,
I get punished for everything…..ROFL. Oh, and I never said Palin was art of the AIP, did I? I think I said “ties to.” Read carefully, grasshopper.
RA
Richard -
So when are you going to drop the “I’m-an-independent” line? This story has been thoroughly debunked & carries about as much value as the “Obama isn’t a US Citizen” line. Both are falsehoods, perpetuated for partisan gain.
‘Since when has anyone gotten punished for publishing a hit-piece on conservative politicians over the last 8 years? It’s practically been a national pasttime.’
Tim,
I’m getting my violin as we speak.
This might be a fun little diversion for some.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/politicians/181426.html?wpc=4#comments
Richard,
Are there separatist groups like this all over the country? Or do they tend to congregate in the “yee-hah” parts of the US?
Tim –
Am I right in thinking that you still consider yourself a single-issue voter in spite of the fact that you’ve gotten only lip service in the past?
Because I’m starting to feel like a sucker.
Lutheran -
You missed my point. No one has to feel sorry for any politician who gets smeared (they’re the ones that entered the limelight, after all). Just don’t claim the mantle of “bravery” for writing the piece. Liberals often claim “I’m so brave because I stand up against the establishment.” Really? Exactly what kind of bravery is required for that in the US? Try it in Saudi Arabia sometime & then come back & tell me about bravery.
spell carefully weedhopper.
“…I never said Palin was art of the AIP, …”
Palin did welcome this bunch, I think at an annual meeting of theirs awhile back.
There’s a old adage — “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.”
MDSF -
I don’t think I’d consider myself a single-issue voter. A candidate’s views on foreign policy, economics, and a host of other issues are important to me. For example, I was not (and still am not) a supporter of Mike Huckabee. Just because he is a pro-life Christian doesn’t make him a good Presidential candidate. Likewise with the Constitution party candidate.
But their view on abortion is very important. All other things being equal between two candidates, I’ll choose the pro-life person every time.
Others might view that as single-issue…I don’t.
Lutheran -
Correct. Read the NY Times article I posted that refers to it. (I can’t believe I recommended the NY Times on anything!)
Tim,
Just curious why you don’t like Huck? He’s my fave among conservative politicians.
Lutheran
Alllllll over the place.
______________
TIM: This story has been thoroughly debunked & carries about as much value as the “Obama isn’t a US Citizen” line.
RA: Really??? Hmmm, that’s odd, given the following:
*** Palin sends a message of support to the AIP…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwvPNXYrIyI
*** Dexter Clark, vice chairman of the Alaska Independence Party confirming that Palin was once a member of the AIP (6:00 time stamp). After the following remark, he goes on to talk about the need for AIP members to “infiltrate the major political parties.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NK2sFJebGc
“Our current governor, we mentioned at the last conference, the one we were hoping would get elected, Sarah Palin, did get elected. There’s a joke, she’s a pretty good looking gal, there’s a joke goes around we’re the coldest state with the hottest governor. And there was a lot of talk about her moving up. She was an AIP member before she got the job as a mayor of a small town — that was a non-partisan job. But you get along to go along — she eventually joined the Republican Party, where she had all kinds of problems with their ethics, and well, I won’t go into that. She also had about an 80% approval rating, and is pretty well sympathetic to her former membership.”
Wait, you’re right — thoroughly debunked…. Hmmmm.
RA
People still failing to see your point.
Here’s a possible solution.
http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/issues/03_06/images/say_it_loud_hdr.jpg
Lutheran -
Huckabee is a big-government kind of guy. I prefer the smaller-government folks…which is one reason Bush was a huge disappointment for me.
Richard -
Perhaps you could investigate both sides of the story. Just a thought…
Tim,
I don’t think there are any small-govt Repubs. left, except Reagan — and he’s been out of the picture for a long time.
Tim –
But what do you do when all other things aren’t equal? Can you really weigh a position on energy policy or tax policy or whatever against abortion?
And how do you weigh rhetoric against action?
Tim: Perhaps you could investigate both sides of the story. Just a thought…
RA: how ironic….
RA
Tim,
As the author of how many books, I believe that Richard is an objective, smart guy when it comes to sources.
You, on the other hand…if you’re suspicious of the NY Times??
Lutheran,
Exactly… CRASH!
Richard,
Just because it was your birthday yesterday doesn’t mean you can come on here and bash the Palins!
p.s. Did you see the “birthday prayer” I posted for you yesterday?
“Happy Birthday”
Lutheran -
You ain’t joking. There were a few who ran for the nomination this year, but obviously didn’t win. Oh well.
Michael,
Is it possible to color my moniker in pink and have an American flag waving for the next few weeks?
Scott,
Nice video! Was that shot by Oliver Stone?
Here is some more information to consider in your quest for truth.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
I too was wishing Richard a Happy Birthday yesterday when he was attacked by small right wing terrorists.
Please pray for Richard. His safety is of utmost importance.
oh, and pray that his hair grows back!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8efguf0XOs&feature=related
MDSF -
Rhetoric means nothing. That’s why I make the argument that even the Repub’s who do a little, still do something. And that’s better than nothing.
If all other things aren’t equal? I’m trying to imagine a hypothetical situation that would cover that…i.e. if a pro-choice fiscal conservative (like Rudy Guiliani) went up against a pro-life fiscal liberal. The only problem is that I can’t think of a pro-life fiscal liberal.
If one existed, I’d choose the pro-life fiscal liberal.
SOLUS,
YEs!!! TY TY TY. I printed it and have it on my desk as my birthday week daily meditation.
It’ll be a good way to start out into year 48.
RAbanes
http://thebarefootkitchenwitch.typepad.com/the_barefoot_kitchen_witc/images/2008/01/06/m_cake.jpg
Richard… a cake for your birthday!
Did you really print the prayer out?
Lutheran -
The difference between me & RA is that I don’t hide my political biases. But yes, I do read a variety of sources & not just right-wing stuff.
My post to Richard disappeared… it was a very special birthday cake.
Sniff… sniff…
Richard -
“RA: how ironic….”
What would make it ironic is if you actually *read* the other side.
I’m not looking so bad now am I?
Is nobody incensed that our government has now acquired majority interest in huge financial vehicles and their accompanying collateral (eg. homes and their mortgages) and that now other financial institutions must now compete with the federal government? Sounds like a monopoly to me….don’t RICO laws apply to this kind of thing?
I’ve been getting fitted for my Supreme Court Justice robe.
Solus - hurrah!!!! And, yes…..
Tim, LoL. peace bro.
RA
…um, as long as we look above the kness I guess.
Man, this crowd needs to lighten up!
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/einstein_tongue.jpg
rankled by cankles Believer
I see the cake solus!!!!! Green M&M.
RA
My biggest regret for not winning is I won’t be able to appoint Bill to a diplomacy post in Iran.
Michael…don’t you know that it’s not polite to talk about religion or politics. This blog has two strikes…the only polarizing subject we have left is sports. Yes that is what this blog needs is more sports talk.
Re: Hillary…
I’m not exactly a Hillary Clinton fan - but I’ve often thought it was a terrible call on Obama’s part not to have her as his running mate. Obama is leading the polls now, but it wouldn’t even have been a race if he had chosen her. No Republican ticket would have stood a chance.
I think politics in this country are becoming a joke…
That’s why I think SNL’s rendition of the last presidential debate is classic.
http://nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-thursday-debate-open/742065/
Ryan -
Go STARS!!
http://www.dallasstars.com Even though they’ve had a rough start this season.
We should be seeing Macon shortly…
Tim…hockey! Come on bro…it’s soccer on ice. The only compelling thing about hockey is the fights and if you’re going to watch an entire sporting event simply for the fights then just watch MMA, they actually know how to fight.
Besides how can you be from Texas and care about hockey?
Go Rays! (since the M’s are terrible I have to root for somebody)
Ryan -
Are you kidding? MMA would be lucky to pull some of the moves that seasoned NHL guys pull on the ice. I’d like to see what some of them would do if body-checked by Darien Hatcher (re:1998-2000) into the boards.
I got into hockey when the company I was working for gave out free tickets to the Dallas Stars…I won a bunch of times, and it happened to be the season they won the Cup. Hard not to get excited. I still remember watching their win against the Sabres. They had gone into triple-overtime, and a bunch of us were in a sports bar in Cincinatti (travelling at the time) staying up to watch the whole thing. There were probably 3 Stars fans in the whole room…it made for an interesting reception afterward.
Tim…nice story but I’m still not convinced.
Now go do what any good Texan would do and watch some football followed by a good old fashioned wrestling match.
For those who are wondering who Clark Kent is…it’s Shannon the Cannon’s hubby. Leave it to him to have his first post here to be on politics.
Babs…where are you?? Now you guys can bring the amil view in harmony to the rest…:)
Macon is at the CC Midwest Pastor’s Conference in northern Hoosierland, but if he can Twitter from there, surely he can post - if they don’t block PP there
Seriously, if there’s enough demand I can start the PP Sports Forum.
I’ve been thinking really hard about this political stuff. I’ve decided that I’m totally wrong about Politics, conservative vs. liberal, Barack Obama, etc. He (Obama) is the Lord’s anointed for the nation. He has been chosen for such a time as this.
Romans chapter 13 regarding submitting to the government will bear this out in the next few weeks. Every government, no matter who or where, is ordained by God and we must submit to it, no matter what. I realize that John Mccain and Sarah Palin are just emissaries of Satan sent to blind us from the truth.
Since my business failed recently and I had to sign all my spec. houses and land back over to the bank who held the note on them, I realize that capitalism doesn’t work. It’s apparent that I was just being driven by greed and essentially have been riding on the “whore of consumerism”, a phrase so powerfully utilized by one of the most respected and chief spokesman on this blog.
I accept that the fact that since the government is going to underwrite my bank’s losses on my project, it must be God’s will to use your tax dollars to prop them up, all the while allowing me to sink, I can accept that.
It’s obvious to me now that the free market economy doesn’t work, complete and entire socialism must be given a chance to have rule in our society. McCain & Palin will just delay the inevitable. Therefore, I’m planning on Obama winning and expanding the government even bigger and more far reaching than our present ‘compassionate conservative’ President could ever have dreamed of. With the help of a Democratically controlled congress & senate and no chance of filibustering from the Republicans, the transformation should be swift & thorough!
In light of these political revelations and epiphanies, I’ve decided a personal plan of action as follows:
1. Stop making any attempt to meet my monthly mortgage payment. The government is going to bail me out by resetting my existing principal & interest, right?
2. Discontinue any further ambitions towards entrepreneurial ambitions. It doesn’t pay, my greedy whorish heart will always win out, it’s just not worth it.
3. Apply for food stamps and any other government sponsored hand out I can get.
4. Wait for Obama’s insurance plan to cover me & my family. I agree with Obama, health insurance is a constitutional right and the rest of you should take care of us since we can’t afford it right now.
5. Keep my annual income level under 24K, pay NO federal taxes, that way I can qualify for EIC, child care credits, and all the other programs the Democrats are planning to give me.
6. File for bankruptcy on any and all debts that I have. They are mostly to credit card companies & banks that have already received billions from the taxpayers anyways.
Feel free to add any suggestions to my list, as I’m sure that being under the spell of the Republicans as long as I have, there’s sure to be many blind spots in my vision.
Scott, I am truly sorry this whole mess has impacted you in such a profound and personal way. You had a above board business that I am sure you ran great and I am sure you were the kind of man to help folks when you could.
Meanwhile, you have to watch as this whole redistribution takes place and you’re on the outside looking in. I can’t relate to what it must be like. I pray God’s best for you.
Ryan -
I do have to give some props to the UT Longhorns. They’re not really my team, but since they’re nationally ranked #1, they deserve some respect.
But on hockey - here’s the thing:
Speed (like NASCAR)…check.
Contact (like football)…check.
Fights (like wrestling)…check.
Busted teeth & ribs (like rodeo)…check.
It’s the ultimate southern sport!
Scott,
I had the same thoughts today…. why not get on the government dole, sit back and enjoy the leisurely ride?
My heart and prayers go out to you and to all of us who have been affected by this debacle.
http://www.geneveith.com/collective-shame/_998/
Pretty sobering article Michael.
I love Veith……
RA
I’ve been arrested trying to save little babies at baby killing mills. However, Pastor friends told me I was violating Romans 13, oh well.
Michael - that article post is beyond words.
People don’t think that ’stuff’ happens. Most would argue that the construct of that logical (and real) conclusion is a hackneyed, worst case scenario strawman that is non existant in real time… but there it is.
And that is why I am a single issue voter. Conservatives may offer lipservice to the preservation of human life, but the Democratic Party platform promotes abortion and offers lipservice to the idea that they wish it weren’t so. If wishes were fishes . . .
Abortion is horrific.
ai~
Abortion is horrific…
Abortion is the slaughter of innocent lives,
Its to our shame that any of us place the economy above the value of life
Michael~ thanks for the link…
Its horrific to think of anyone who boasts of killing 60,000 lives
I would like to say more,
But all I can say right now is
NObama… No to one that supports baby killing,
ESPECIALLY late term and live birth abortion botch jobs.
In support of my 4:16 post a friend send this to me.
TO: Honorable Secretary of Agriculture
Washington, D.C.
Dear Sir;
My friend, Ed Peterson, over at Wells Iowa, received a check for $1,000 from the government for not raising hogs. So, I want to go into the “not raising hogs” business next year.
What I want to know is, in your opinion, what is the best kind of farm not to raise hogs on, and what is the best breed of hogs not to raise? I want to be sure that I approach this endeavor in keeping with all governmental policies. I would prefer not to raise razorbacks, but if that is not a good breed not to raise, then I will just as gladly not raise Yorkshires or Durocs.
As I see it, the hardest part of this program will be in keeping an accurate inventory of how many hogs I haven’t raised.
My friend, Peterson, is very joyful about the future of the business. He has been raising hogs for twenty years or so, and the best he ever made on them was $422 in 1968, until this year when he got your check for $1000 for not raising hogs.
If I get $1000 for not raising 50 hogs, will I get $2000 for not raising 100 hogs? I plan to operate on a small scale at first, holding myself down to about 4000 hogs not raised, which will mean about $80,000 the first year. Then I can afford an airplane.
Now another thing, these hogs I will not raise will not eat 100,000 bushels of corn. I understand that you also pay farmers for not raising corn and wheat. Will I qualify for payments for not raising wheat and corn not to feed the 4000 hogs I am not going to raise?
Also, I am considering the “not milking cows” business, so send me any information you have on that, too.
In view of these circumstances, you understand that I will be totally unemployed and plan to file for unemployment and food stamps. Be assured you will have my vote in the coming election.
Patriotically Yours,
Morgan
P.S. Would you please notify me when you plan to distribute more free cheese.
In answer to MDSF’s “what did you get with Bush?” I would like to cite Anonymously Indignant’s and Sister Christian’s posts.
I, too, cannot vote for anyone who supports abortion. Abortion is our culture’s answer to sacrificing to idols and God will judge us for it.
CC Rio Rancho offers some resources on candidates and culture.
http://www.calvaryrr.org/index.php?page=Voter’s Guide Links
Not sure why the link didn’t work…
Linnea, it worked for me, I just highlighted the whole link and pasted it. They had this little 30 second spot, goes to the heart of the article that Michael posted http://www.frcaction.org/get.cfm?i=WX08J03
Scott,
That letter is classic and indicative of the entitlement so many presume is theirs…there is a fine line between compassion and enabling.
As a pastor whose church operates a soup kitchen we wrestle with this issue constantly.
hmmmm I think it’s meant to be a joke Tater.
Is this the political inerrancy thread?
only if you’re a republican!
London…yeah I know it’s a joke but it’s based upon the fact that the government actually pays people not to work.
London, forgot to acknowledge your posting of that link for me. There was actually some pretty good clips on there. Thx
Ryan, I know what you mean about that tension & struggle. I like the Guys who just tell it like it is with their signs. “I need $$$ for beer, please help!”
Thankfully this is the Political Forum this was posted on Justin Taylors blog:
Please take the time to read this carefully~ and prayerfully~
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/10/robert-p-george-voting-for-most-extreme.html
Robert P. George: “Voting for the Most Extreme Pro-Abortion Political Candidate in American History Is Not the Way to Save Unborn Babies”
from Between Two Worlds by JT
Readers of this blog know the esteem I hold for Robert P. George–in my view (and that of many others), he is one of the great moral philosophers and public intellectuals of our time. With a law degree and a theology degree from Harvard, and a doctorate from Oxford, he currently serves as McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence at Princeton University, and as the director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions. He also serves on The President’s Council on Bioethics and previously served on the United States Commission on Civil Rights.
Dr. George is a man who chooses his words very carefully. And that is why his latest essay, Obama’s Abortion Extremism, is so significant. It begins in this way:
Barack Obama is the most extreme pro-abortion candidate ever to seek the office of President of the United States. He is the most extreme pro-abortion member of the United States Senate. Indeed, he is the most extreme pro-abortion legislator ever to serve in either house of the United States Congress.
George then raises the fact that many today are suggesting that one can be pro-life and pro-Obama:
Yet there are Catholics and Evangelicals—even self-identified pro-life Catholics and Evangelicals—who aggressively promote Obama’s candidacy and even declare him the preferred candidate from the pro-life point of view.
What is going on here?
I have examined the arguments advanced by Obama’s self-identified pro-life supporters, and they are spectacularly weak. It is nearly unfathomable to me that those advancing them can honestly believe what they are saying. But before proving my claims about Obama’s abortion extremism, let me explain why I have described Obama as “pro-abortion” rather than “pro-choice.”
George proceeds to work through Obama’s legislative career–which has merited a 100% rating each year from the NARAL Pro-Choice America’s Congressional Record on Choice–to show Obama’s unmitigated commitment to abortion, even when the legislation has nothing to do with the making abortion illegal. For example:
1. Obama “has promised to seek repeal of the Hyde Amendment, which has for many years protected pro-life citizens from having to pay for abortions that are not necessary to save the life of the mother and are not the result of rape or incest.”
2. Obama has promised that “the first thing I’d do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act” ( FOCA). This would make abortion a federally guaranteed right through all nine months of pregancy for any reason. Virtually every state and federal limitation on abortion that is currently on the books would be abolished (e.g., parental consent and notification laws for minors).
3. Obama opposes the ban on the heinous practice of partial-birth abortion and strongly disagreed with the Supreme Court ruling to uphold the ban.
4. Obama wishes to strip federal funding from pro-life crisis pregnancy centers that provide alternatives to abortion for pregnant women in need.
5. Obama refused to support the pro-life Democrats’ “95-10” legislation (designed to reduce the number of abortions by 95% in 10 years by strengthening the social safety net for poor women). This would not have made abortion illegal; it would seek to reduce abortion.
6. Obama “opposed legislation to protect children who are born alive, either as a result of an abortionist’s unsuccessful effort to kill them in the womb, or by the deliberate delivery of the baby prior to viability.” The bill contained a specific provision that ensured that the bill would not affect abortion laws (Obama and his campaign lied about this fact until it was proven in the records).
7. Obama has co-sponsored a bill authorizing the large-scale industrial production of human embryos for use in biomedical research in which they would be killed. It would require the killing of human beings in the embryonic stage that were produced by cloning, and would make it a federal crime for a woman to save an embryo by agreeing to have the tiny developing human being implanted in her womb so that he or she could be brought to term.
8. Obama was one of the few senators to oppose a bill that would have put a modest amount of federal money into research that would develop methods to produce the exact equivalent of embryonic stem cells without using (or producing) embryos. “From any rational vantage point, this is unconscionable. . . . Why create and kill human embryos when there are alternatives that do not require the taking of nascent human lives? It is as if Obama is opposed to stem-cell research unless it involves killing human embryos.”
With regard to those who think that electing Obama will save lots of unborn lives, George writes:
They tell us not to worry that Obama opposes the Hyde Amendment, the Mexico City Policy (against funding abortion abroad), parental consent and notification laws, conscience protections, and the funding of alternatives to embryo-destructive research. They ask us to look past his support for Roe v. Wade, the Freedom of Choice Act, partial-birth abortion, and human cloning and embryo-killing. An Obama presidency, they insist, means less killing of the unborn.
This is delusional.
George ends his article in this way:
What kind of America do we want our beloved nation to be? Barack Obama’s America is one in which being human just isn’t enough to warrant care and protection. It is an America where the unborn may legitimately be killed without legal restriction, even by the grisly practice of partial-birth abortion. It is an America where a baby who survives abortion is not even entitled to comfort care as she dies on a stainless steel table or in a soiled linen bin. It is a nation in which some members of the human family are regarded as inferior and others superior in fundamental dignity and rights. In Obama’s America, public policy would make a mockery of the great constitutional principle of the equal protection of the laws. In perhaps the most telling comment made by any candidate in either party in this election year, Senator Obama, when asked by Rick Warren when a baby gets human rights, replied: “that question is above my pay grade.” It was a profoundly disingenuous answer: For even at a state senator’s pay grade, Obama presumed to answer that question with blind certainty. His unspoken answer then, as now, is chilling: human beings have no rights until infancy—and if they are unwanted survivors of attempted abortions, not even then.
In the end, the efforts of Obama’s apologists to depict their man as the true pro-life candidate that Catholics and Evangelicals may and even should vote for, doesn’t even amount to a nice try. Voting for the most extreme pro-abortion political candidate in American history is not the way to save unborn babies.
I encourage you to read the whole article, and to pass it along to others.
Update: You can listen to Al Mohler interview Robert George on the Albert Mohler Radio Program live tonight from 5:00-6:00 p.m. ET.
Update 2: Regarding the arguments of Doug Kmiec–the Catholic pro-life but pro-Obama Constitutional scholar at Pepperdine–both Drs. Mohler and George referred to them as “ridiculous” and “through the looking glass.” This seems to be the take of Ramesh Ponnuru, who recently called Kmiec a “silly and confused man” (with regard to this issue).
Add starShareShare with noteEmail
Kept by the King…
Thank you for including the verbage of the article. Without hysteria, it paints a picture of what the candidate Barack Obaama has done and will do concerning the sanctity of life.
I have copied the article and sent it in an email because I believe it provides rational answers to questions about Obama’s “above my pay grade” response.
Just for Richard:
More evidence disproving your Palin theory…this time from the LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia15-2008oct15,0,2147926,full.story
Linnea,
You are very welcome! What a scary day we live in! I live in Washington State and my vote won’t count, but I pray God will intervene for the lives of many unborn!
Also this is what a Pro-life President does for life, he may not repeal Roe Vs. Wade but signing these protections on behalf of the unborn is a great thing! As the article states it allows more children to live…..
Kept by the King,
Perhaps the greatest moral legacy of the next administration will be the possible appointment of two new Supreme Court Justices.
The argument about “what has Bush done for you?” doesn’t hold water in my book. The concept of natural law, upon which our very Constitution was written, is fundamental to deciding cases today. We need justices, like Clarence Thomas, who, at the risk of losing his reputation, affirmed his belief in natural law.
I pray that we will have justices who know their Creator and who understand the unalienable rights we all have.
I received an E today that I assume is going around widely…
won’t do into detail here - but this person (with documentation) went back thru Obama’s life from Occidental on… and, essentially, it ended up with one question, where’d the money come from? I know our previous Democratic President raised similar unanswered questions…and Jimmy had us all wondering where’d he come from? (the Democrats’ version of Palin?)…
it seems to me that there is a chess game going on behind the scenes that has nothing to do with America-the-beautiful. I’m not making a judgment call on who should be President this time around. Obama may well be a good guy. But I absolutely would bet money that he’s far from being his own man or capable of implementing his ‘plan.’
I read a lot of blogs, and while I’m sticking to my guns in regards to not discussing politics, I’m not breaking my personal rule in regards to sharing links.
If you’re conservative, evangelical and pro-life (or have an interest in that viewpoint), then you need to bookmark these blogs:
http://theologica.blogspot.com/
http://takeyourvitaminz.blogspot.com/
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/
http://crmafia.blogspot.com/
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog.php
I think you’ll find the opinions and ideas expressed at these blogs very edifying and helpful to you. Not everyone will agree, and this isn’t any suggestion that pro-lifers are the only “saved” Christians or that Democrats and Obama-supporters are committing egregious sin (or anything like that).
I’m saying the pro-life, conservative position is the position I tend to come across the most, by far, when scanning the various blog posts I read.
If I see a evangelical, Protestant, Obama-supporter in any of my blog feeds, I’ll post it here.
Oh, yeah, I approve this message
Also, Thabiti Anyabwile on why it’s difficult for him to vote:
http://purechurch.blogspot.com/2008/10/presidential-election-that-almost-was.html
http://purechurch.blogspot.com/2008/10/presidential-election-that-almost-was_15.html
Tim,
That’s not evidence. It’s a hit piece based on either: a) ignorance: or b) someone from very high up saying to shut it down.
I started snooping and found all kinds of stuff on S. Palin AIP T. Palin AIP all kinds of other stuff.
Sorry, bro. But I’ve studied these groups (see “American Militias”). People are falling into the tragic error of thinking that S. Palin had to be actually IN AIP to be part of it — that’s the mistake (let’s just forget that her husband actually WAS in it).
She is clearly not only a sympathizer, but worked with these people, going so far as to send them what amounted to a “hurrah for you” video.
Do you know what infiltrate means? It’s called acting like you’re one thing so you can get in somewhere else. Yeah, that’s what I did when I infiltrated a Patriot Movement meeting in the 1990s. Think about it. Palin’s infiltrating, too, imho.
RA
Richard…. is that what you’re doing at PP? Infiltrating?
Ha Ha Ha! ROTFL my a@@ off!!! Palin is infiltrating? Now that’s some serious investigative work there Richard!
Based on the little I have read, Palin scares the hell out of me.
I decided to read all the links pro and con and there is way too much smoke for no fire.
We live among the Patriots and survivalists here…and they’re nuts.
I also think this thread may have been one of my top ten worst ideas…
Scott,
Read “American Militias” for which I won in 1997 “The Myers Center Award for the Study of Human Rights in North America” (from the “Gustavus Myers Center for the Study of Bigotry and Human Rights”).
You won’t be laughing very long…..
RA
“I also think this thread may have been one of my top ten worst ideas…”
Now THAT was funny!
When I heard McCain had selected Sarah Palin, I wept for a week.
All of the prophets (I know, I know, nobody here believes the verse about God doing nothing without showing it to the prophets, at least not until we get some sound sensible prophets like, say, Ezekiel) are excited about this person.
Here is John Crowder’s take:
http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=0B007FBR&GroupID=NB006VYF
So, it looks like it’s boiling down to either:
A.) Patriot with militia lovin’ sidekick in heels, or…
B.) Friend of revolutionaries and Baby slaughterer
Tough choice….
Looks like either way we’re “s____ed”.
Don’t ya just love politics!
I’m laughing my a@@ off because juxtaposing Palin’s supposed connections to Militias is so funny in light of the people Obama hangs out with. How many people do you know that would kick off their political career at the house of a man and woman that bombed the Pentagon and other sites, even killing innocent people?
Michael, you can always delete the thread or just shut it down. I certainly won’t lose any sleep over it.
Gee Richard!
Proverbs 27:2
Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.
Scott: I’m laughing my a@@ off
RA: You need to stop laughing and do some research, prayer, and thinking, IMHO. God help any of us who know and “pal around” with anyone in America who ever did anything really terrible in the U.S. in the 1960s and who now lives as:
1) an American elementary education theorist who edits/writes books and articles on education theory, policy/practice, and speaks on panels/symposiums; and
2) a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, College of Education.
Oh, and that’s after earning an M.Ed from Bank Street College in Early Childhood Education (1984), an M.Ed from Teachers College, Columbia University in Early Childhood Education (1987) and an Ed.D from Teachers College, Columbia University in Curriculum and Instruction (1987).
Yeah, you’re right, Obama is just “palling around with terrorists.” Start thinking for yourself, Scott. Sorry, but this is silly.
RA
RA
And I’ll say this about Palin….yeah, you guys got me going…
It’s amazing to me how so many Christians will get so easily fired up and ready to believe literally ANY conspiracy theory based on little-to-NO evidence about:
- the anti-Christ,
- Rick Warren,
- Schuller,
- Black Helicopters,
- African-Americans (yeah, I said it),
- Muslims/Arabs,
- and whoever else they think is an enemy of Jesus Christ wrapped up in an American Flag stamped with a big “R.”
But then, when solid documentation starts coming out about someone they adore ….. well, goodness, suddenly anything even hinting at some kind of hidden agenda is so utterly ridiculous. How absurd! Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ridiculous.
Uh-huh.
RA
beliver: Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.
RA: I don’t undertand this at all…
But I have coke and cheetos now.
RA
“Oh, and that’s after earning an M.Ed from Bank Street College in Early Childhood Education (1984), an M.Ed from Teachers College, Columbia University in Early Childhood Education (1987) and an Ed.D from Teachers College, Columbia University in Curriculum and Instruction (1987).”
I’m not too sure I’m impressed.
Did he ever write a book that won an award?
HA HA HA! ROTFLMAO! HA HA HA! That’s sooooo funny! You’re too much! HA HA HA! How ridiculous you are Richard! HA HA HA!
Uh-huh
S
lol - don’t know. But I’ve never blown up a building.
Ya know you kind of mention something that gets me all the time.
I am always damned if I do, damned if I don’t.
I am invariably accused of being an idiot and not knowing what I am talking about, but then when I produce credentials, I get accused of being arrogant — and have verses like Proverbs 27:2 thrown at me.
Meh, whatever.
RA
Scott = no more credibility, or reason to be taken seriously.
“don’t undertand this at all…”
Well, if you have to start dropping credentials to win an argument…..
…just saying……
Poor Richard! I’m getting out my violin even now
Shall we talk about the weather now?
Seriously, this conversation here has me wondering about doctrine, and what kind of thinking follows . It’s an eye-opener.
One thing I’ve noticed about you Apologetic types, you all posses HUGE martyr complexes!
I’m off to watch the Phillies/Dodgers. Go Phillies! LOL!
Besides Richard, you have my permission to Bible Thump me when I get out of line.
I’m sure I need it from time to time.
Lighten up a little!
a waste of time……always such a waste of time…..
RA
Well Richard,
Most of us here don’t consider you a waste of time, or talking with you a waste of time.
Please don’t be shocked though when people here at PP disagree with you, or call you on an attitude.
No one here is above correction. That includes me too.
I beg your pardon if you feel I’ve been too frank with you.
For starters I’m not impressed with anyone whose bona fides are teachers’ credentials - not because its the easiest degree to get. I have a teacher daughter with a masters degree in same from a very respected school. I have great respect for good teachers. But the people I’ve come across who call themselves ‘educators’ have that certain air that men of the cloth, who ask to be called ‘reverend,’ give off.
The flag that goes up here is not one of concern regarding violence. Our ship of state (whatever that is) has already changed course and it is the one the ‘educators’ and the ‘reverends’ want to see us on. Militias and ODMs are just trying to rearrange the deck chairs. Are they dangerous? Only because they cause confusion. IMNSHO
aw well, time for my nap - guess I’ll go watch the debate
may God have mercy on our souls (Praise Him! He does!)
I thought we might see some reasoned discussion on these issues from a Christian perspective, but this has turned into another bat to bash each other with.
I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen such rage and derision over undefined differences.
It’s sad and completely reinforces my adamant stand to keep politics out of my church.
BTW Richard,
I didn’t mean to imply arrogance by my earlier scripture posting. There can be any number of reasons why we self promote (or post ridiculous links like me!).
If you lost my e-mail address it’s:
johns@twft.com
We don’t need to do have this discussion on the PP. Perhaps offline would be better.
AB: …. call you on an attitude.
RA: Call me on attitude?
I offered a contrary opinion, based on research….
I got this response from Scott:____________
Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Ha Ha Ha! ROTFL my a@@ off!!! Palin is infiltrating?
Then I got this from Scott:_________
Oct 15th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I’m laughing my a@@ off because……
Then I got this from Scott:_________
Oct 15th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
HA HA HA! ROTFLMAO! HA HA HA! That’s sooooo funny! You’re too much! HA HA HA! How ridiculous you are Richard! HA HA HA!
Then this:_____
Poor Richard! I’m getting out my violin even now
Then this:______
you Apologetic types, you all posses HUGE martyr complexes!
And I have the attitude??
Fine, cya folks…
RA
Michael,
Dont be sorry for making this thread.
I for one am thankful to read through and see peoples and how they position themselves in the midst of this political mess,
Theres a bigger problem at hand, the moral fiber of our nation is unraveling quickly.
be encouraged Michael you have the happiest job on earth!
http://blogs.payscale.com/content/2008/09/job-satisfactio.html
The study shows a correlation between certain careers for Americans and career satisfaction. In fact, the study says the most enjoyable jobs where people report being happiest overall, not just in terms of job satisfaction, involve helping others,
what tops out at #1… ?
Sis,
The moral and spiritual fiber has deteriorated to the point where the system no longer puts forth men of ideas or principle worthy of leadership.
Christians are scalping each other over people who in reality are not much different than what has come before and who have nothing new to offer.
The only hope for this country is revival.
Period.
Richard,
I’m sure Scott was turning up the heat a bit to see what would pop!
Scott does that sometimes you know.
Looks like you passed with flying colors though.
Shame on you Scott!
debates starting. Im already bored LOL, hope it isn’t as bad as the last one. Still bouncing back and forth between Obama and McCain, but ill probably vote for Bob Barr
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/home/skip/?s=0618
and please don’t tell me the tired old adage about wasting my vote, cause I fell for that with Bob Dole and won’t ever listen to it again.
BTW he is holding a counter debate along with the Debate between the two tax and spenders
Michael…
Agreed.
However political discussions are what we deal with in the real world,
and if we as believers cannot be an example… what are we to do?
Just a reminder as these things are discussed…
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes seven are an abomination to Him…
A proud look… the flag of arrogance is flying high
A lying toungue… isnt lying common place these days?
Hands that shed innocent blood… pegs abortion, and the support thereof
A heart that devises wicked plans… scheming to indulge in ones lusts and oppress others in the process
Feet that are swift in running to evil… Those whose delight is to do the things God hates,
A false witness who spreads lies
And
One who sows discord among brethren… purposefully causing contention, division, and backbiting
Let not ANY such thing be named among us!
That should have been two posts,
The reminder is to each of us
it was not directed specifically at Michael
Michael,”I thought we might see some reasoned discussion on these issues from a Christian perspective.”
I got a wonderful E today that observed that our politicians make the laws and then proceed to run for re-election on the platform of fixing the results…or something to that affect.
Michael, God bless you. I honestly don’t even know what the issues are anymore. But I am working on my Christian perspective.
(no point in following the debate…I’ll just tune in afterward to the guys who like to tell us what we just heard)
SC - wonderful words and edifying … you are seeing the issues from a Christian perspective - thank you for ministering to me tonight as I’m pretty tired of the same old posing and slip sliding of our politicians
Remember,
The essence of Love is seeking the welfare and betterment of another
No man has greater love than this, that he lay down his life for another,
no matter what we speak if its not based and basked in love,
if it is not for the edification and well being of another,
it is worthless.
Psalm 62,
You are always a delight and refreshing to my soul!
You with your picnic basket. perched upon the gently sloping hill,
watching the battle and praying for our souls.
Michael,
I’m with you.
It sickens me to see brothers and sisters clubbing each other over political issues.
If I’m going to be bashed by someone, let it be for Jesus, not because I voted for a particular candidate.
Everything is getting way too political, and the evangelical church seems eager to jump in and be like the rest of the world. Not just in the world, OF the world, at least as far as conservative politics go. I don’t blame anyone a bit for being scared to admit a preference for Obama within evangelicalism (just as I don’t blame anyone for being scared to admit their preference for McCain in liberal circles). No one seems to want to argue issues and respect you as a human being anymore.
Just watched the debate. I have finally made my decision. I’m voting for Joe The Plumber!!
http://www.joelaratheplumber.com/
Brian D~
Isnt what you are describing symptoms of strong polarization?
Do you really see that those who support either candidate are afraid to show their support in opposing circles?
seems people are fairly brazen these days
AB~ Yes, I bow in shame
You know, labs are good at flushing the pheasants out of the tall grass.
Anyways, I agree with you all! I think it’s deplorable how Richard uses this blog to drop incendiary newsflash bombs on folks he doesn’t agree with and then quotes his own books, articles, blog & website as ‘resource’ material to prove his point. What’s worse is that when someone finally calls him on it, he sheds a few crocodile tears, picks up jacks and goes home. Maybe he’s waiting for one those “Richard, don’t you go anywhere!” pleas (?)
I don’t care for either one of the Presidential Candidates, to be honest with you. As I’ve stated on previous occasions, my vote doesn’t count here in the People’s Republic of Oregon anyways.
Sis, yeah I do.
The “brazen” and outspoken people will always be heard, and they generally don’t care if someone doesn’t like what they say.
Most people just want to get through the day and don’t want to make things worse for themselves, and a great way to do that is by proclaiming your support for an unliked or unpopular candidate or politician, say at work. Or church.
I posted something at my blog that might be helpful for folks trying to apply the gospel as they think through the whole political deal:
http://briandblog.com/?p=139
I don’t think who our President is will fix our nation. It’s so easy to get caught up in the rhetoric and empty promises that have been the norm for ages.
Our government is not the answer to our nations woes. So many of us have left our first love and placed the idol of politics between us and God.
That we would ever allow this to come between us as family is disheartening. Our nation needs revival but I confess I don’t hold out much hope. Revival needs to begin in our churches. Sadly, it seems all we would do is argue about what revival is.
When the talk here was about abusive CC Pastors I always felt any changes God deemed necessary would be one Pastor at a time and one church at a time with others following.
Revival can happen one person at a time and one church at a time. Our nation needs a real encounter with the God of the universe. Will our pride ever allow that to take place??
Brian D~
Thats disheartening,
Do you recall there ever having been an election that was so heated and polarized by the supporters?
Sis, no I don’t. Seems to me like it gets a little crasser and little more polarized each time.
Erunner, amen.
I haven’t seen LFT since a few nights ago. Perhaps you could try email?
Can’t decide whom to vote for. Obama is just too slick. McCain is just too emotional, his emotions show on his face each time Obama speaks. Can you imagine those faces while he listens to a leader of another country?
Both speak eloquently of what they want to do. But I want to hear how they are going to accomplish their goals. Not a lot of substance in the debates, just a lot of finger pointing going on.
Michael -
For my 2 cents, delete the thread. I forgot there was a reason I rarely discussed politics among fellow believers.
BrianD, I have tried to contact her but haven’t heard back yet. I imagine things are not easy for her right now. We will all continue to pray.
Erunner~
I dont think from these candidates there is a presidential “fix”
either.
However, I do see one candidate as a serious catalyst in a downward spiral that we are already in.
Not only is there the problem of idolatry in politics, but the idols of education, materialism, pleasure, entertainment, sport, wealth, lust and most of all self are sadly all too characteristic of America today.
One example…How did this credit game get so extreme anyways?
Listen to the words of the Lord:
“Woe to him who increases
in what is not his by loading himself up with many pledges,
Will not your creditors rise up suddenly,
will they not awaken those who oppress you,
and you will become their booty…”
The lesson… dont acquire wants based upon credit
and Are we doing what is right in the sight of God by heaping up goods and services through credit?
Unless there is repentance on many fronts, (not just regarding the credit binge…) on a personal and national level,
Im afraid correction will come in a way that we could not even imagine nor believe…
“A bitter and hasty nation will be raised up
to possess dwelling places that are not theirs
terrible and dreadful
they are more fierce than wolves
they will come for violence,
and gather captives like the wind
they will scoff at kings and deride every stronghold.
and ascribe their power to their god”
From Habakkuk
May God have mercy and bring repentance and revival to this nation before a calamity such as this occurs
I have made my decision.
The answers you seek are in this book:
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=581010&event=CMS&p=1142241
If you register with ACORN you can vote twice - once each for Obama and McCain and then we can have peace.
At some point in time we need to admit that both candidates are turds.
Both candidates are turds
I’m going to vote for Ralph Nader
Scott,
In the original greek that means liars and thieves
Tim, calling for the deleting of this thread? What the…..Why? Like this is the most divisive threads in PP’s history? Me thinks not.
I too think the thread should stand.
This is time for all of us to:
Be about Our Fathers business,
The Lord is a stronghold in the day of trouble
He knows those who trust in Him.
He is able to make all grace abound to you,
that you always having all sufficiency in all things
may have an abundance for every good work
Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness
and let us put on the armor of light
Let us walk properly
not in revelry, drunkeness, lewdness or lust
not in strife and envy
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ
and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts
Recieve one who is weak in the faith
dont dispute over doubtful things
it is time for us to declare:
God commands all men everywhere to repent,
that their eyes may be opened
in order to turn them from darkness to light
from the power of satan to the power of God
acts 26:18
repent;
turn to God
and do works befitting of repentance.
(Acts 26:21b)
I watched the debate tonight on and off between watching the sorry Dodgers lose to the Phillies, oops, I didn’t offend you did I MLD? Anyways, I thought it was McCain best performance, still way too much government from both of them for me.
Scott,
I can see some of your concerns with Richard,
However, Im wondering:
Could there have been a better way to present those concerns?
This is an area where I have some struggles and conviction myself.
So, im not singling you out here…
we could all do better at:
Learning to correct someone in/through proper
conduct(how I live),
communication(how I say what i say) in order for them to hear:
Content(what Im trying to say)
so when I read:
Let all things be done for edification.
Do you think there is a way you might be able to rephrase your rebuke to Richard in such as way as it is:
what you see, legitimate concerns from your perspective
yet;
said in a way that would edify not only him but the reading audience? ( and not sarcastically?)
I think you are up to the task, and I think we could all learn from your example!
Scott,
I too watch the debate between innings - McCain couldn’t hit the curve ball either.
Scott,
When it comes to discussing politics, you’ve pretty much lost cred with me.
It makes me angry when you attribute motives and accusations to another — this time, to Richard. The Eighth Commandments tells us to put the best ’spin’ (a modern paraphrase) on another’s motivations and actions.
I think you owe Richard an apology. I don’t blame him for leaving.
You can do better than the mocking and sarcasm you’ve shown here.
Sister,
What you call for (Scott’s response to Richard) is for girls. Men beat each other with clubs in discussions like these and when we are done and bloody we go out to a sports bar together and have good fun.
Scott,
You haven’t lost any credibility with me. Richard does have an attitude
and is way out in left field on this one. His defense of Bill Ayers is
just pathetic. The L.A. Times doing a hit piece for Palin - come on.
That’s my 2 cents for now!
Lutheran,
Richard has done his fair share of mocking and sarcasm.
I could have written the same request to him,
and actually; in thinking about it,
I toss out the same challenge to him as well.
Martin Luthers Disciple,
You may think that my suggestion is for girls,
and you may prefer to club each other,
get all bloody and then go out to a sports bar for fun…
But I dont see how that is a good example to the world,
rather emulating the world,
instead of being set apart, holy
and building up the kingdom of God.
But maybe im just a silly, sissy girl who desires to stay close to and follow Christs example
I must admit I did snicker a bit when Richard pulled out his award - “Read “American Militias” for which I won in 1997 “The Myers Center Award for the Study of Human Rights in North America” (from the “Gustavus Myers Center for the Study of Bigotry and Human Rights”).
Did I ever mention that I won a trophy once in Little Leagues?
Sister,
Why should men be forced to act like girls? That’s what’s wrong with the church today - that’s why evangelicals sing “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs in church and men run.
Calling each other out is part of the warrior in us.
I wonder if when Jesus made his whip and ‘cleansed’ the Temple if He bloodied anyone or if He was more concerned about Sister’s example;
“But I dont see how that is a good example to the world,
rather emulating the world,
instead of being set apart, holy
and building up the kingdom of God.”
I think that Jesus hurt people physically.
I think that when Jesus confronted the Pharisees that he yelled at them at the top of his voice. I don’t think He spoke to them as He did others when He delivered the sermon on the Mount.
Jesus was a man, and since He was accused of being a drunkard, I think He may have spent some time at the Sports Bar.
MLD and Sis,
I think I’m enjoying your “dialogue” here much more than I did the debate!
I think I made the PP Hall of Shame this year.
That may count for something in some circles.
Everydog has his day in the sun.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e293/Deepblack77/EveryDogHasItsDay2.jpg
AB,
You’re a man - wouldn’t you like to see a Jesus movie with Tim “The Tool Man” Taylor playing the lead?
That would be cool.
The way things have been going lately, I think Richard Simmons may have a shot at it!
http://paxarcana.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/richard_simmons.jpg
…or maybe that was Gene Simmons.
http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertainment/tv/blog/Gene_Simmons.jpg
“Let the righteous strike me
and it shall be a kindness to me
and let him rebuke me
it shall be as excellent oil
let not my head refuse it”
Psalm 141: 5
He who rebukes a man will find more favor afterwards
than he who flatters with the tongue.
Proverbs 28:23
Rebuke has its place MLD~
And I dont believe Im asking either men to behave like girls in any way shape or form.
But to walk worthy of the calling they are called to adorning the gospel of grace, walking in love, humility and edification of a brother in Christ…
Perhaps Paul better expresses it:
“Brethren, if any man is overtaken in any trespass,
you who are spiritual, restore such one in a spirit of gentleness
considering yourself lest you also be tempted.”
Unless of course you deem one or the other is speaking to a pharisee
or to temple money changers full of lies deceit, that might change the entire equation.
Well, it’s been a terrible evening. Boring debate and the Dodgers lose. The only manly thing to do is go to bed.
See ya!
Sister,
““Brethren, if any man is overtaken in any trespass,
you who are spiritual, restore such one in a spirit of gentleness
considering yourself lest you also be tempted.”
Even Paul couldn’t do this one. Remember, he kicked John Mark to the curb and split with Barnabas - he did it the Manly way
MLD,
My vote may go for Kendall Simmons.
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/1736469.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939057D9939C83F106A40C3059B932EEAD5A5397277B4DC33E
Sorry to hear you have bored by a terrible evening…
Hope you have a more “manly” day tommorow!
Sis,
We hear ya!
I’m sure they’ll work it out!
I already told Richard to contact me offline if we need to discuss anyting privately.
There might be a slight possiblity I added some fuel to the fire.
Oh MLD… sigh… Galatians was written far beyond the book of acts, seems Paul is speaking from wisdom here and likely learned a great lesson from his past mistakes.
and sometimes “tings” need discussing.
AB~
I know they are both “manly” men…
and can handle the situation without my intervention.
Just suggesting the guys might show themselves to be manly gentlemen online
Sister,
I don’t know how Galatians is written after Acts since Acts is telling the story of Paul and his activities which would include some of his letter writing.
Anyway, the original point was that I don’t see anything wrong with the interchange between Scott and Richard. I think it was a good healthy discussion by people with 2 differing positions.
One last edification from the Apostle Paul from his writing in 2 thess;
Brethren,
Warn those who are unruly.
Comfort the fainthearted,
uphold the weak
be patient with all
See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone
but always pursue that which is good for both yourselves and for all
Rejoice,
Pray without ceasing
in everything give thanks
for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you
May the God of peace sanctify you completely
May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!
“with 2 differing positions.”
You mean 2 different combat styles don’t you?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/giverdonkey/thunderlips3-1-2.jpg
Perhaps Sis is right, …this tussle should have occurred in the backyard and not the living room (as amusing as that can be at times).
AB~
Im not opposed to tussles being out in the open,
as long as a proper resolve is eventually achieved
Sis,
When it comes to political views, oftentimes ideologies are pretty
deeply held and may never come to complete resolution.
Perhaps understanding and civility are the best we can hope for when passions are so strong.
We can’t even agree as christians on theology.
Having a politcal discussion go sideways is pretty likely.
I think overall things went pretty well here today.
I just had a chance to read most of this thread, and for what it’s worth I wanted to affirm what Sister is saying. I grew up in a household with four brothers who are anything but sissy (one was actually a skin head for many years, and literally curb-kicked people). So, I know how “men” can rebuke each other and how they can get their point across.
Still, in listening to MLD’s argument that men need to be men, I thought of the men I respect. JI Packer, John Piper, Gordon Fee, Eugene Peterson and a list of others you have never heard of, including my husband. Gordon Fee especially…he is passionate and less reserved than the others, and I have heard him in debate. He is not “sissy”, but he never has to give in to crass argument or sarcasm to mock and be-little his opponent. He actually uses rhetoric and logic and facts.
I was not impressed with either Scott or Richard’s performance yesterday. Sister is not calling for them to be sissies. She, and I, are calling for them to show some measure of maturity and debate the issues in a way that opens the topic up to all of us to learn. The sign to me of a “man” is one who is able to control his temper and, especially when his opponent is convulsing in emotions, still bring his point with force. If a man has to resort to name calling and mockery, I’m just not very impressed.
There is a time and place for a man to step up and act with great force. I have seen that done, and done well. But the issue had better warrant the response.
Michael,
Could you be specific on what scares you about Sarah Palin?
Linnea,
The same things that frighten/repulse me about the rest of the political pack.
She appears to have a great desire for power for powers sake…the motivation today for seeking office is no longer the good of the republic or its people but the acquisition of power.
To be honest she reminds me a lot of someone in your hometown who had the same problem…
She is no worse or better than the rest…my hope is that God has mercy on us and after this season of chastening He will raise up true statesmen and women who fear God and love the people they are supposed to be serving.
Until then, I’ll just be content with being a apolitical pastor helping clean up the mess.
Scott -
The reason I gave my 2 cents about deleting the thread wasn’t because of the fireworks between you & Richard. You’re right…that wasn’t even close to be the most contentious exchange here.
It’s just that as with many other things - we’re obviously not going to change each others’ minds on this. Even the ‘undecideds’ already have their minds made up. So in essence, this becomes fruitless debate between people who all serve the same King and are bought with the same blood. At least with the theological debates, we’re arguing about stuff that relates to our salvation.
What do we gain by arguing about this stuff? As for me, I’ll save my political discussion for other circles.
Shoot! Not only did I not change anyone’s mind, but now I have no credibility with certain delegates of the PP! The vote was rigged, I’m demanding a recount, too much hanging chaff
When we choose to omit from our “Christian” discussion the ‘hard topics’ . . . or in this case the very current topics, aren’t we doing a disservice to the question of ‘how then should we live’?
I don’t believe Christ will bring unity to all points, because He himself said He came to divide. It’s just funny that we all think we couldn’t be opposite the aisle from Him. Being His child doesn’t make you right; it makes you His child. And foolishness is stored up the heart of a child, no matter what size the child.
The first one to speak always seems right. Until the second one speaks.
In the search for truth applied to daily living, a very wise man said to me:
Truth is kept by saying the right thing, at the right time, in the right way, to the right person. That’s why we need the Holy Spirit to lead us in ‘all truth’.
Sister: I toss out the same challenge to him as well.
RA: And Sister “Christian,” please tell me, what “challenge” is that.
1. I came hear to inform PP readers of information regarding a candidate who might possibly be a heartbeat away from the presidency. Information that I find to be credible to various levels, and did so out of concern for our country and each other because based on my research, this could pose a danger to us all. (I guess you can “rebuke” me for caring).
2. For posting that information, Steve laughs at and mocks me (read the posts).
3. In reply, I tell him to not laugh (because it’s not funny). And I refer to a book I write on the very subject being discussed, mentioning its recognition in order to show that it’s not just some thrown together, hodge-podge collection of self-published nonsense.
4. I am mocked and ridiculed again — this time, not only for my initial concerns, but also for my efforts to express WHY my position at least deserves some consideration (i.e., noting my book). And on top of that, I get personal insults made about my motives and integrity.
5. I post further observations on added problems I see in seeking to express contrary views in the Christian community, only to be followed by you, who instead of correcting the mocker/scorner, says: “Do you think there is a way you might be able to rephrase your rebuke to Richard.” As if there was room for any rebuke for any wrongdoing. (If you can please QUOTE DIRECTLY from my posts above where I am deserving of any rebuke, please do so).
SO, Sister “Christian,” what exactly is the “challenge” that you, after all your scriptures, now echo from Steve.
And before you answer, I suggest you read the following again:
I offered a contrary opinion, based on research….
I got this response from Scott:____________
Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Ha Ha Ha! ROTFL my a@@ off!!! Palin is infiltrating?
Then I got this from Scott:_________
Oct 15th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I’m laughing my a@@ off because……
Then I got this from Scott:_________
Oct 15th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
HA HA HA! ROTFLMAO! HA HA HA! That’s sooooo funny! You’re too much! HA HA HA! How ridiculous you are Richard! HA HA HA!
Then this:_____
Poor Richard! I’m getting out my violin even now
Then this:______
… you Apologetic types, you all posses HUGE martyr complexes!
Tell, me Sister “Christian,” who needs a rebuke here based on all of your scriptures?
Then, Scott proceeded to write these insults:
* You know, labs are good at flushing the pheasants out of the tall grass.
* Richard uses this blog to drop incendiary newsflash bombs on folks he doesn’t agree with…
* … then quotes his own books, articles, blog & website as ‘resource’ material to prove his point.
* he sheds a few crocodile tears,
* picks up jacks and goes home. Maybe he’s waiting for one those “Richard, don’t you go anywhere!” pleas (?)
All of the above remarks take unnecessary slaps directly at my motivation, heart, soul, honesty, integrity, walk with God, Christian maturity, openness, and sincerity.
Any rebukes coming that way, Sister “Christian”?
I’m seriously asking, not seeking to be sarcastic. I am asking you that question in all honesty.
R.A.
“She appears to have a great desire for power for powers (sic) sake.”
Woman who get pregnant post-40 and deliver a Downs baby while serving as governor may have some faults, but power-hungry is not one of them.
Before you accuse this imperfect (like all of us) but good woman in front of 2 billion Internet readers, one would think you might have some evidence.
Shameless, just shameless, and if I knew how to underline that, I would.
Richard -
Perhaps you could drop the scare quotes around Sister Christian’s name? Her love for the Lord Jesus is well established.
Hey MICHAEL!! I think this one’s to you: “Shameless, just shameless, and if I knew how to underline that, I would.”
RA
Look, here’s the deal as I see it. The reason I overplayed the ROFL and the HA HA HA routine with you Richard is that’s what I perceive you do to people you don’t agree with. There’s a sort of intellectual snobery to your routine that is unbelievably insensitive and repugnant to the average Joe the Plumber like me. It has NOTHING to do with your political views, CAPEESH?
And another thing, the way you cut & paste people’s remarks to you and place them in your in responses, like it’s some sort of cross examination by a court room attorney, bugs the hell out of me.
Other than that, I’ve spoken my mind and really have nothing more to say at this point.
Tim,
Highlighting “Christian” to bring attention to the apparent importance of that word to her and the gravity of having it in one’s screen name. It means more than just being able to quote endless scriptures, IMHO. So I am looking for a “Christian” detailed, thoughtful, accurate, full-orbed, biblically sound response. That’s all.
R.A.
Richard,
I have supported you in the past in discussions, but your mocking anger toward Sister Christian is unwarranted.
I would be interested in your ideas on issues and don’t have time to read a book at this point.
Would it be possible for you to present in a succinct form the evidence which supports your opinions?
Thanks
Richard,
You are being very insulting to Sister Christian with you “Christian”…
You cause much of your own pain…
Scott…you didn’t lose complete credibility with me, but I think you could have handled yourself as a man of God with more maturity.
And I agree, Richard, you are playing rough with a woman who is quick to pray and intercede and remind us all to follow closely to the example of Christ. There is no excuse for that callousness.
Jesus with the whip is one of my favorite parts of the Bible. I love the warrior in a man. A warrior who isn’t afraid to speak up, fight and get dirty… and who loves the Lord.
Now Sis… don’t me makin’ them a bunch of sissies…
Michael,
Thank you for responding to my question about Sarah Palin. From what you said earlier, it seemed as though you were linking her to the militia movement based on what you’d read.
I have never seen the media deal with a candidate as viciously as it has Sarah Palin. Even feminists have torn her asunder, though she is living the life they profess to want every woman to have.
That she is a mother dealing with the same issues all mothers deal with endears me to her. That she has been independent in Alaska makes me think that she does not cow tow to the pressure, as some seem to accuse. That she kept her Down Syndrome baby is living proof that she walks her talk.
On top of that, she is a Christian and should warrant our support in light of Romans 12 and especially Romans 12:10. I think she deserves better than she’s gotten from professing Christians.
Richard,
You have an opportunity here to step back and pray.
Ask the Lord if some of the criticisms of you have merit. All of us can learn from these kind of situations if we refuse to let our pride in the way.
It is not necessary for you to defend yourself . The more you ramp up your self defense, the worse it gets for you. It make folks wonder if you are really that insecure.
It is not necessary for you to promote yourself or convince us of how educated and competent you are. Again, this seems to reveal huge insecurities.
Stop perfecting the art of using people’s own words against them. That will never serve you well in dialoguing with anyone, or ever help you come to an understanding. It just irritates the heck out of people.
AB~
You wrote:
“Having a political discussion go sideways is pretty likely.
I think overall things went pretty well here today.”
AB, you, I and many others know, the discussion that went on in this thread is mild sauce compared to threads over 2 years ago…
There is much more grace and patience
Its getting better
The “manly” kind you know
Richard,
Give me some time,
You have dished out similarly sarcastic ha, ha, rotfl comments to others in the past, if not on PP, certainly on other blogs I looked into after you posted about how unfairly you were being treated over there.
If you insist I look them up and post them,
Ill see if I can find the time to track them down between my household chores, seminary classwork and preparing for my upcomming mission trip to Europe.
or you can just admit you have behaved in similar fashion,
and see the wounding it does to others and repent from it.
My challenge to you?
Same as my challenge to Scott~
let me adapt the same challenge with you name and see if it seems reasonable to you…
Richard Abanes,
I can see some of your concerns with Scott,
However, Im wondering:
Could there have been a better way to present those concerns?
This is an area where I have some struggles and conviction myself.
So, im not singling you out here…
we could all do better at:
Learning to correct someone in/through proper
conduct(how I live),
communication(how I say what i say) in order for them to hear:
Content(what Im trying to say)
so when I read:
Let all things be done for edification.
Do you think there is a way you might be able to rephrase your rebuke to Scott in such as way as it is:
what you see, legitimate concerns from your perspective
yet;
said in a way that would edify not only him but the reading audience? ( and not sarcastically?)
I think you are up to the task, and I think we could all learn from your example!
Richard,
From my perspective you and Scott each have legitimate concerns,
I guess its up to the both of you whether you take MLDs definition and continue in a manly, bloody clubbing approach to discussion (which I didnt see was the case)
Or you simply re-evaluat the comments you both have made:
That they could have been said in a way that the other person is more willing and able to listen, where both of you learn and grow, and are edified in the process.
This is not directed at just you and Scott,
Its a principle we could all learn from, including myself
Just trying to help.
Scott: The reason I overplayed the ROFL and the HA HA HA routine with you Richard is that’s what I perceive you do to people you don’t agree with.
RA: I offer a contrary opinion, and usually, at least I try, back it with at least a few documents and pieces of evidence so it’s not just my opinion based on thin air.
______________________
Scott: There’s a sort of intellectual snobery to your routine that is unbelievably insensitive and repugnant to the average Joe the Plumber like me.
RA: Really? Let me explain something. If I were an intellectual snob, I wouldn’t even be here at PP, nor would I even bother talking to a “Joe the Plumber” like you because I wouldn’t give a rip about either you or your thoughts — or the opinions of anyone else whom I didn’t see as my equal. THAT, my friend, is an intellectual snob. They view people who don’t have the requisite degrees — B.A.s, M.A.s, or doctorates — as being those who are below them (especially in Christianity if you don’t have a Seminary degree). Hey, BTW, do you knwo how many degrees I have? ZERO. ZIP. NADA. I barely made it through high school. So it’d be rather diffcult for me to view anyone from a place of intellectual snobbery. If yoiu are feeling that way, then Scott, it’s in your own head. Don’t put it on me.
Moreover, as for you playing up the HA HA HA routine supposedly in response to my snobbery, you posted that in the very first response you made (Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:42 pm) to my post wherein I did NOTHING but give: 1) my opinion on the LA Times article; 2) my own feelings based I information I had found about Palin; 3) teh reason for my feelings (i.e., based on some very in-depth research that culminated in a book about these groups (see Oct 15th, 2008 at 4:21 pm). You responded by mocking me. Who was being a snob? Me?
_______________________
Scott: the way you cut & paste people’s remarks to you and place them in your in responses, like it’s some sort of cross examination by a court room attorney, bugs the hell out of me.
RA: Here’s the story on that one, if you care. This started years ago when I was spending hours and hours witnessing to Mormons on their message forums. After long threads dealing with some terribly complex issues of history about Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon, or some other stuff, I’d have Mormons tell me they NEVER said certain things that I was attributing to them. They were wrong. They had indeed said such things, and it was coming back to bite them on the backside when I pulled out documentation to prove them wrong. So, to stop me from having to prove what they said, in ADDITION to having toprove my point, I got in the habit of quoting them, followed by my response. They could no longer then deny what they had clearly said. It worked, and it wokred so well, that I used that point-counter-pount format ofr my book “The Truth Behind the Da Vinci Code,” in which I quote Dan Brown in this same fashion. Many Christians said that was a very helpful way for them to see what Brown was saying, and what the Bible says. So, there you go.
And finally, you really went beyond just saying you disagreed, in several places you attacked me personally — my motivation, honesty, intentions, truthfulness, integrity, etc. That is what I have been seeing so often. Rather than deal with issues, facts, documentation, logical analysis, thoughtful response, people all too often don’t answer and just attack the person’s character. Sad, IMHO.
R. Abanes
To those offended by my use of ” ” to Sister Christian, please re-read my Oct 16th, 2008 at 8:26 am.
There is nothing insulting there. I have explained that. if you choose not to believe that, then you are in essence saying I am lying. Is that what you are saying?
Thank you,
R.A.
Sister,
You don’t have to go far. At the top of this thread (4th post) Richard says;
“ROFL!!!!!! Can anyone say nut-job? ROFL!!!! Sometimes I love these guys…..
RA
Thank you, MLD
Richard, what are you? The secret service? Do you have a personal folder file on what every single person has ever said to you? You’re scaring me Dude.
Be afraid, very afraid.
“Secret Service visits Lufkin woman after ‘death threat’ allegation from an Obama campaign volunteer”
http://www.lufkindailynews.com/search/content/news/stories/2008/10/07/secret_service.html?imw=Y
Richard,
….let us know when you reach China.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3034/2617611284_b83a04f688.jpg?v=0
MLD: “ROFL!!!!!! Can anyone say nut-job? ROFL!!!! Sometimes I love these guys…..
RA: Was that personally directed at anyone here at PP in a serious manner? NO. Was that in the context of a dialog with someone in a serious confrontation here at PP? NO.
That was in a light-hearted context, in reference to a third party, unknown, youtube video personality representing a fringe political movement by ILLUMINATE PICTURES - the same people who have given us “”Dark Planet: Visions of America” — which is described by this same guy who made the Obama video as “a celebration of extremism.”
whatever…..
Ra
Richard,
Don’t get all over me. I was the one last night supporting this kind of bloody mano to mano kind of discussion followed by good fellowship later at the Sports Bar.
Everyone,
We’re all family, not ideas to shout down.
Debate ideas vigorously if you must. But maintain respect for the other person, as much as you want them to maintain respect for you.
As far as Sister Christian goes, I assure you Richard and anyone else who wonders that there is no guile nor arrogance about her. It’s a screen name. She’s one of the godliest, most humble people here.
Linnea,
“On top of that, she is a Christian and should warrant our support in light of Romans 12 and especially Romans 12:10. I think she deserves better than she’s gotten from professing Christians.”
I don’t know if I am required to support a person who I may think is unqualified for a job JUST because they are a Christian. I don’t take my car to an unqualified Christian mechanic - I go to the well trained pagan.
(the comment does not reflect what I may think of Palin, but to your comment about supporting Christians applying for a job.)
It’s not exactly ‘believe the best’, but . . .
“Never attribute to malice tha which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
I don’t question any of Richard’s motives. I think his conclusions are inadequate in the discussion of politics.
On the upside, my partisanship is as annoying a stench to his sensibilities as his is to mine.
I think I have met MLD’s mano a mano requirements. Also, I have not shaved and am wearing a sport’s watch and just finished my Peter King sportsnation picks for the football weekend. Manly? Oh yes.
Did I mention that I didn’t shave my legs?
Richard,
Every time we have had an ODM with us here at PP you have immediately “piled on” with your quotes and accusations of them. This happened with Tim Wirth, Jackie, Bud Press, etc. I think with Jackie you might have asked her 100 questions total in your various reponses to her. Now, you might have valid points on all of that, but your approach has squelched any possibility of having real dialog with them.
What I would encourage you to do in the future is to say to them something like, “Look, there has been a lot of things posted by you about me, and me about you, how about if we dialog alone on these issues so that we don’t bog down the blog?”
If you will do this the person will not feel like there is just no way that they could respond to all of the questions and accusations thrown at them. Plus, doing this will not make you look bad because of heaping tons of stuff on another believer.
I’m not criticizing your questions in saying this, just the method of trying to communicate. BTW, if memory serves me right this method worked between you and Chris Rosbrough, at least for a while, right?
Does this make sense?
ai,
I think you’re in.
Politics (the world), writing books, college degrees, seminary, great ministries at home and far away reminds me of this poem about Jesus:
One Solitary Life
He was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant
woman. He grew up in another obscure village, where He
worked in a carpenter shop until He was thirty. Then for
three years He was an itinerant preacher. He never wrote a book.
He never held office. He never owned a home. He never went to
college. He never set foot inside a big city. He never traveled two
hundred miles from the place where he was born. He did none of
the things that usually accompany greatness. He had no redentials
but himself. He had nothing to do with this world except the naked
power of His divine manhood. While He was still a young man the
tide of popular opinion turned against Him. His friends deserted Him.
He was turned over to His enemies and went through the mockery
of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves. While He
was dying, His executioners gambled for the only piece of property
He had – His coat. When He was dead, He was taken down and
laid in a borrowed grave.
Nineteen wide centuries have come and gone, and today He
is the centerpiece for much of the human race. All the armies
that have ever marched, and all the navies that ever sailed, and all
the parliaments that ever sat, and all the kings that ever reigned,
put together, have not affected the life of man upon this earth as
powerfully as this “One Solitary Life.”
(Author Anonymous)
Reading these arguments over politics reminds me of the two boys I had in my office this morning explaining why they were right!
One quick passing thought here. I told my wife this morning, “what do yo want to bet “Joe the Plumber” will be crucified in the media by the end of the week.” I said, “I hope that Guy doesn’t have any skeletons in his closet, God forbid if he’s found out to be a registered Republican.”
Looks like my gut was right
You guys will never know it’s me now….
I lost my gravatar!
http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/archive/Horror/Evil-laughter/Evil-laugh/38924
AB…ummm….your gravatar is still showing. Did I miss the joke?
Tim, AB is like the crazy Uncle that lives in the basement, we probably shouldn’t draw anymore attention to him.
Tim,
Sometimes they take a while to disappear. I did indeed delete my images on the Gravatar site and its hows up blank on my screen now. So, at least I can’t see myself!
Clear your cache however, …and I’m gone!
Looks like the joke’s on me!
-the invisible, visible Believer
its hows = it shows
Before we go comparing this to the ODM’s and our disagreements there. I believe, with the rod you use to measure you will be judged. Judging someones political motives, or leanings doesnt compare with judging ones Salvation. One is the earthly realm, and limited to time and space. One if the Godly realm limited to Christ Himself as Judge of the world for eternity.
When someone freaks because I am leaning towards Obama, eh whatever. But when someone comes across as Judge and exicutioner about another believers eternal destiny it is stepping into the realm of the Godmakers. It goes far beyond judging my intelegence or motives, it steps soundly on Christs toes.
He didnt like it when the Israelites did it, He made a king eat grass for a time when he did it, I think He takes more seriously them stepping over the line in His territory, than he does our petty indulgences in politics.
AB - you just need to use a different email address. It doesn’t have to be real btw.
GALLUP SHOCK: 49 OBAMA, 47 MCCAIN WITH LIKELY VOTERS
Glenn Beck going to Fox News…… A Mormon is infiltrating the Christian new network!!
Okay…. That was fake. The other two weren’t.
Joe The Plumber vows to eliminate plumber’s butt in America!!
Your political fix for the day!
Richard
Earlier you said
“2. For posting that information, Steve laughs at and mocks me (read the posts).
You didn’t mean me did you? Is that a misprint? Or is there another Steve here?
Glenn Beck at Fox…Awesome…Mormon or not…I like his take on stuff
I think we should all write in Roy Disney BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Edward_Disney
Solus,
If I’m not mistaken, Ray Stedman wrote that.
Pardon the Interruption,
Really? I googled his name… he looks like my father, very handsome.
It’s a beautiful poem.
PTI… it’s nice having you around PP. I’ve always enjoyed your posts.
Solus,
Likewise…the part of having you around, not your father.
Pardon the Interruption,
Thank you. My father is with Jesus. But, if he could, he would come around to rattle our cage… he had a warped sense of humor!
Richard,
There is a sweetness about you. You are loved here by many… a few feathers were ruffled—no worries. I hope you liked the poem.
Richard
I am getting older and my brain doesn’t hold all the memories it used to but I don’t remember ever doing anything but respectfully disagreeing with you on some things and even then, tere were minor if I recall.
I am guilty of a lot of things…just want to makes sure that this is something I actually did! :=)
A Believer and Scott… you must have drove your sisters absolutely crazy!
Steve,
I think Richard meant to say Scott.
Solus,
Thank you so much for that quote about the Solitary Life. I read that many years ago and have been searching for it for a few years now. I have wanted to use it a few times when I was teaching about the impact that Jesus has had on our world. I didn’t have enough of the text of it in my mind to find it in a search. Thanks again!!!
Glenn Beck rocks!!!
Joe the plumber may save the election for us!
It is my hope that many of McCain’s supporters are humble (like McCain), and not as loud as Obama supporters. May God help us on election day.
MLD
I think you are correct…but I don’t know for sure any more. thanks
PTI,
Me thinks Ray Stedman may have quoted it , but borrowed it.
About the poem.
http://www.higherpraise.com/illustrations/one_solitary_life.htm
One Solitary Life
One Solitary Life: Author Known
The author of this familiar passage about Christ is almost universally thought to be unknown. A quick search of the World Wide Web (”One Solitary Life”) will show: first, how familiar and loved this passage is; second, how commonly it is attributed to an anonymous author; and third, how many variations there are (further evidence that most people are ignorant of the existence of an original source in print).
However, there is a known author, and the source is available in print at many libraries. I owe my knowledge of this to the efforts of a Mr. Palmer Brown (recently deceased?). You can read about his search and discovery of the author in a Los Angeles Times article of Sat. Dec. 1, 1973 (Part I, pg. 32).
The author is Dr. James Allan Francis. It can be found in his book called “The Real Jesus and Other Sermons”, published by “The Judson Press” (Phil.) in 1926. It is in the last chapter titled “Arise, Sir Knight!” on page 123. There is a short biography of Dr. Francis in the article mentioned above.
The article and the book can be obtained at your local public library. Ask your friendly neighborhood reference librarian for assistance.
I obtained my copy from the Los Angeles Public Library. I have it right here beside me. I find it very interesting to compare the original passage with the many variations that I have seen. Anyway, here it is:
Let us turn now to the story. A child is born in an obscure village. He is brought up in another obscure village. He works in a carpenter shop until he is thirty, and then for three brief years is an itinerant preacher, proclaiming a message and living a life. He never writes a book. He never holds an office. He never raises an army. He never has a family of his own. He never owns a home. He never goes to college. He never travels two hundred miles from the place where he was born. He gathers a little group of friends about him and teaches them his way of life. While still a young man the tide of popular feeling turns against him. One denies him; another betrays him. He is turned over to his enemies. He goes through the mockery of a trial; he is nailed to a cross between two thieves, and when dead is laid in a borrowed grave by the kindness of a friend.
Those are the facts of his human life. He rises from the dead. Today we look back across nineteen hundred years and ask, What kind of trail has he left across the centuries? When we try to sum up his influence, all the armies that ever marched, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned are absolutely picayune in their influence on mankind compared with that of this one solitary life…
And the paragraph continues on from here. It is embedded in a chapter. There is no title “One Solitary Life”. It would be interesting to try to discover when it picked this up. Maybe this is the same time when it became (un)officially “anonymous”.
Beck to Fox? Program will be at 5 PM? Isn’t that O’Reilly’s time slot?
This pretty much sums up Politics.
A little boy goes to his dad and asks, ‘What is Politics?’
Dad says, ‘Well son, let me try to explain it this way:
I am the head of the family, so call me The President.
Your mother is the administrator of the money, so we call her the Government.
We are here to take care of your needs, so we will call you the People.
The nanny, we will consider her the Working Class.
And your baby brother, we will call him the Future.
Now think about that and see if it makes sense.’
So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what Dad has said.
Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, so he gets up to check on him.
He finds that the baby has severely soiled his diaper.
So the little boy goes to his parents’ room and finds his mother asleep. Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny’s room. Finding the door locked, he peeks in the keyhole and sees his father in bed with the nanny. He gives up and goes back to bed.
The next morning, the little boy say’s to his father, ‘Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now.’
The father says, ‘Good, son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all about.’
The little boy replies,
‘The President is s******g the Working Class while the Government is sound asleep. The People are being ignored and the Future is in deep s**t
JimB.,
I’m glad you like the poem. It is beautiful. I hope you and your family are well. I like the poem too, because it reminds me that we have no right to be boastful or proud because of our achievements or good deeds. Most importantly, it reminds me that Jesus cared about people, loved people, tended to their physical and spiritual needs; not about worldly things or impressing anyone with things of this world.
Jesus’ life shows us that He was much more concerned with caring for the people around Him … loving your neighbor. Blessings
Regarding the poll numbers, it doesn’t surprise me. The undecided voters element is evidently higher than it’s ever been, up to 18% in some of these polls. The CBS poll showing Obama up by 14% the other day was just plain ole’ dishonest.
I just went to the Gallop website Obama 51% McCain 41%.
Bob, folks are referring to this story posted on Drudge Report
http://drudgereport.com/
Can you imagine what would have happened if Sarah Palin had said this?
I guess first grade math isn’t a prerequisite for becoming V.P. in the U.S.
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=198573
Drudge has about as much reliability with me as Dave Hunt.
Joseph
I thought everyone spelled it jbs!
Bob, so do you believe that Obama is going to beat McCain by 10 percentage points?
As far as credibility, I guess that’s in the eye of the beholder
Scott, I consider myself a Reagan Republican. You can call me a fatalist, but I’m preparing myself for Barack. I believe he will win by 8-10% of the vote. McCain was not the right candidate.
Ok, here’s my question….
Is Joe the Plumber the same as Joe 6 pack? And, just what kind of 6 pack is being referred to?
Obama asked an audience today “how many plumbers do you know who make $250,000/year!!” (ROFLOL was the implication) Well, Mr. Obama, I know a few….plumbing is good business, just ask the plumbers who underwrote the the first family of CCABQ!
Bob,
I’m not preparing myself… kicking and screaming all the way… think pink!
Waving my AmericanMcHero flag….
The point of the whole Joe the Plumber thing wasn’t even the 250k a yr deal as much as the Candidate’s response of “we have to spread the wealth around.” Which I’m all for at this point. Cause like I said a couple of days ago, I’m going on the dole and intend on letting the rest of you support me with your tax dollars, you’re okay with that, right?
Hmmm. I would be Scott…but I think I’m about to be on the dole with you.
My guess is that Obama will be the next president. But we will survive. We are Americans and this is America! We survived the Carter years and we’ll get through 4 or 8 years of Obamanation!
On my way home now…
Linnea,
You may have be right, but the state police investigation along with the chumminess with the militia group give me pause.
I also confess to a complete mistrust of anybody in politics today that pretty much should keep me out of these conversations.
London~ You’re on the dole too! YIPPIE! I’m not alone! Do you like sliced or diced dole pineapple?
I’m actually about to be I think…about an hour ago found out a job that I thought I had for sure fell through cause my dang company is too greedy and charged too much for me.
So…now…I’m not sure what will happen. Sucks!
I like diced….
Natural juice or water packed?
This ain’t over gang till the fat lady stings!
http://www.unlikelyink.com/uploaded_images/fatLadyWithBees-775195.jpg
Dole Whips from Disneyland Roxor
Sorry L, still prayin 4 ya
Does anyone really think the Obamination is gonna get anywhere? Americans are a bit sharper than we think. I trust that no matter the party in the White House, the other will take control of the Congress. Maybe not right away, but it always happens.
Besides, like the tacky CCM song says over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in perpituity God is in Control
Steve, you’re right,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5YeBkXQ4xo&feature=related
18% Undecided
Thats a fairly good margin to have the tide turn either way.
Instead of wringing our hands and resigning ourselves over to 4-8 years of Obanination, we may be able to survive ultimately, but have to live with the shame and agony that will be heaped upon us.
We should be encouraged to pray and beseech God in these matters.
Like Michael,
“I also confess to a complete mistrust of anybody in politics today”
While many think McCain isnt much better, the staus quo of politics is likely to be far better than the radical change Obama is certain to bring to our nation., It wont be pretty folks
Bob,
That was hysterical!
Eric,
This one’sfor you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2H34lMOAyg
My post above is in response to Steve Hopkins post:
“My guess is that Obama will be the next president. But we will survive. We are Americans and this is America! We survived the Carter years and we’ll get through 4 or 8 years of Obamanation!”
and I meant to write Obamanation not Obanination…
Not sure that means
Obama nation
ABL - DEWDLY WOOOOOTAGE!!!
Thats the stuff my friend!!
Natural please.
I really try to avoid Poly Tics.
http://www.nitbusters.com/images/Ticks/ticks_chart.jpg
For the slow among us.
Prefix:
poly- many
I wish LA was, heard the smoke is bad even at my beloved Disneyland now. UGGG, can’t you guys ever get a handle on these fires?
http://cbs2.com/campaign08_xx/plumber.taxes.registered.2.842376.html
“But it turns out that ‘Joe The Plummer’ doesn’t have a plumbing license, owes back taxes, makes less than $250,000 a year and is a registered Republican, according to television, newspaper and wire service reports Thursday.
Joe Wurzelbacher, 34, of Holland, Ohio was cited by McCain in Wednesday evening’s debate as an example of someone who wants to buy a plumbing business but would be hurt by Barack Obama’s tax plans.
But the county Wurzelbacher and his currently employer live in, Lucas County, requires plumbers to have licenses. And neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo.
Wurzelbacher also owes the state of Ohio $1,182.98 in personal income tax, according to Lucas County Court of Common Pleas records.
In January 2007, Ohio’s Department of Taxation filed a claim on his property until he pays the debt, according to the records. The lien remains active.
Despite portraying himself in some media accounts as an independent or undecided voter, it appears that ‘Joe the Plumber’ is a longtime, registered Republican.”
Betting Joe wishes he had kept playing soccer with his son
Sister,
The question is “will we survive the Bush years”?
MLD,
Only by the Grace of God!
Eric,
Since we can’t make LA firepoof, a team of top experts is working on developing flame retardant caps.
They may even come with mouse ears I hear!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PDuqk_DSMw&feature=related
Got a moment so here’s my little “hello for the day.
I’m probably going to vote for Obama. I have many reasons but they will remain my own.
No matter who gets elected, let’s be honest… ALL politicians are in it for personal power, no matter how altruistic they might be. Even Gandhi had his issues & struggles. Politicians? We will always have no voice with them, but our whispers are heard by The Father thanks to Jesus, so HE is ultimately where my confidence shall rest and be anchored to.
So, why all the fear?
We over-identify with any political system and the result will always be a loss of hope (of eternal, enduring kind).
We religious people never seem to learn. The 4 ways remain as bankrupt as they were when Jesus created The Fifth Way, HIS Way.
1) Forget the “righteousness exalts a nation” argument, as if our purity could change much. That was the manipulative argument of the Pharisees, that if only there were a critical mass of purity then YHWH would overthrow the powers that dominated them. All they succeeded in doing was to manipulate and overburden the masses while misrepresenting YHWH.
2) And forget the “can’t we all just get along” argument of the Sadducees because daily we’re going to have to draw some line in our personal sand. No amount of capitulation will get us our way so it’s better to remain true to God and live the compassionate life Jesus calls us to, even if it’s not politically popular.
3) And forget about the Essene argument of bailing out completely and moving to the hills or desert and abandoning the process because God put us here to make change and inspire hope, even if that means to visit someone who’s lonely or struggling. We are meant for community and to tangibly encourage each other.
4) And finally, forget about the “burn it all down” philosophy of the Zealot militants, such as the Christian and & Muslim fundamentalists who would destroy the very civilization God has put them, and us in. God is no fan of “burning it all down”. His agenda is NOT “it’s all gonna burn”, quite the opposite! He didn’t ever prophesy destruction with a smile on His face, and with every warning He compels us humans to choose life.
Jesus created a unique Fifth Way of life, one of being His personal disciple within a community of disciples in the eternal stream of humanity, those who have faith and vision that God has NOT abandoned His world or followers. He calls us to hope, to vision, to imagination, growth, beauty, cultivation, building, compassionate expansion, management, and service.
Every 4 years this country squares off and goes all red VS blue, but God remains constant, without hue or variance. God’s party is stable, enduring, and ongoing and the distractions of Washington DC and our localities are not worth freaking out over.
On election day the truth is we will each focus on being a quality follower of God and let Him sort out the things we have no control over. If Jesus had the temerity to assert that His followers could count on The Father to keep an accurate inventory of each hair on their heads, He obviously knows of a care we can only begin to imagine.
Peace, out
Shoot! Joe the plumber really isn’t a plumber? Darn! I was duped again
Good words G-dawg.
Alot of them, and all fancy pants, but good words none the less
scott,
Sorry Dude, never trust a plumber, or a guy in his front yard playing one on tv.
AB, LOL I loved that movie
Grendal,
Really good words…really good.
I think I will vote for Joe the Plumber
Michael,
The Holy Spirit was speaking to us in political code through Grendal.
Especially note the last few words of point 4.
So I guess any one who doesn’t board the Obama express or dares oppose him has their life exposed and discredited
I guess Joe was being interviewed by Catie Couric about what it was like to be the focus of the debate. When he began to tell her that he was going to vote for McCain, she cut the interview off saying “Well that’s all we have time for…”
“I guess Joe was being interviewed by Catie Couric about what it was like to be the focus of the debate. When he began to tell her that he was going to vote for McCain, she cut the interview off saying “Well that’s all we have time for…””
LOL, we noticed that too. “Sorry Joe we have to go, you can catch the rest of joes comments on the webcast…”
Steve,
LOL!
Is Richard still mad at you!
He cant cut a break, first one side of the Discerment camp, now the other.
Poor Steve
I’m not going to tell you who I’m voting for; I’m not going to tell you that I’m voting for Homer Simpson
Homer Simpson is a Racist!! And has been seen cavorting with Mr. Montgomery Burns!!!
Vote Dumbo in ‘08
I am Dumbo, and i approved this message.
“Homer Simpson is a Racist!! And has been seen cavorting with Mr. Montgomery Burns!!!”
A flat-out lie from the right AND the left
Pishaw, Im standing right in the middle!!
A vote for Dumbo means 3 day park hopper passes for every man woman and child in America. A Corney dog in every pot, and Dole Whips all around! I vow to lower taxes, and give everyone a stimulous check (Coutesy of our friends in the peoples republic of China, China cause its just good politics, visit the Chinese travel and House church “registration” ministry)
A vote for Homer Simpson means only the rich and Doghnut shop owners will get tax breaks. Your children will die of TB and your dog won’t like you so much anymore!!
I am Dumbo and I approved this message.
Thanks, my friends. I’m honored to bring any value to our dialog.
I first heard of these “4 ways” expounded by Peter-John during his first weeks at Capo Beach Calvary. Pete didn’t use the terms “four ways” but he presented the fact that the body politic and dissidents were focused on eliminating Jesus precisely because He was at odds with the 4 power polarities. They all wanted extremes and Jesus avoided them all and brought His Father’s agenda in a fresh form to their awareness, but the power brokers of humanity did what they can be counted on doing, fear based reaction.
I learned more when my friend Dave Brisbin finished writing his book “The Fifth Way” (which is NOT to say that Jesus is not the One Way, lest any ODM’s decide to flip out). Dave points out that Josephus recognized these 4 extant philosophies in Jesus’ Jewish culture & time and then Dave expands beautifully on The Fifth Way of Yeshua, the one we’re called to.
Dave’s book is a great read…
http://stores.lulu.com/fifthway
http://www.theeffect.org
Daves a COMPLETELY AWESOME guy too, really easy to talk too. I need to get that book.
Randy Alcorn on Obama and his stance on abortion:
http://randyalcorn.blogspot.com/2008/10/not-cool-obamas-pro-abortion-stance.html
Donald Miller on Obama, his stance on abortion, and his stance on other issues:
http://burnsidewriterscollective.blogspot.com/2008/09/interview-with-donald-miller.html
I disagree with Alcorn’s assertion that people are voting for Obama because he’s the “cool” candidate. They would consider Obama because they agree with him more on Iraq, the deficit, rebuilding America’s good will with the international community, and other social issues more than they do with McCain/Palin. There are also people who are sick of the Bush administration and see McCain/Palin as more of the same.
We are truly a divided country. Grendal had good words for the church; if a significant portion of the church would separate itself from being of the world of neo-cons and Republicans and seek to be in that world (and the world of the liberals and Democrats) while being fully of the world of the kingdom of God, maybe it could be the light that our culture desperately needs.
I’m voting for Michael Newnham!
Thanks BrianD.
You pretty much summed up my thoughts about the co-opting of the community of the followers of Jesus.
Frank Schaeffer, not the favorite of some who frequent this blog but a hero in my mind, repudiates the culture wars & empire building of the religious community. I resonate with Frank because we’re contemporaries. I was at the “How Should We Then Live” series in the ’70s and found the promise of intelligently interfacing with current culture to being the message and hope of Jesus inspiring. Sadly there was a turn toward the promise of becoming a power bloc and some conservative luminaries and rose to power as they swept many of us along. It was not until we individually questioned our so-called “leaders” and decided that we must stand issue by issue and principle by principle. We ultimately tasted the bitterness of how we poisoned our message… we were supposed to be about God & love and compassion & mercy but we became known by our caricatures like the late Jerry Falwell.
The new evangelical movement gives me hope, though it brings what some here consider a disquieting “social gospel” facet. I think the gospel is entirely social, and about showing the world “what it looks like”. No one will listen to me about God until I can show them the effect in my life, and it better be about kindness, love and compassion, not carrying signs and damning them because of their lifestyle.
The best example I can think of is my former pastor Rick Warren, who puts the secondary issues like “end times” aside and focuses on real hope and change. Rick is no compromise about his values and the truth of the Bible. He pulls no punches about how a person’s life will dramatically improve when they become a follower of Jesus.
I can also think of the small community called TheEffect, which is under the radar of the rest of us but they faithfully love each other and reach out to the homeless, the marginalized and the hurting. I have seen “what it looks like”, and that’s what makes me hopeful, that no matter how much doom saying, there will always be a remnant who simply are about The Kingdom and The Father’s business, regardless of who’s in power. Each of us is “that remnant” if we choose vision and refuse to give into hopelessness.
Anyhow, that’s my $.02.
Kevin,
A vote for Newnhamn sounds good, but I have disturbing evidence that may change your mind.
I have uncovered evidence that Michael Newnham has secretly been cavorting with the ladies at First United Methodist on Wednesday nights.
I know, I know, It’s shocking!
Considering the dangers bingo poses to this country, I could never feel comfortable endorsing his candidacy.
In 1992, I won the prestigious “Most Influential Non-fiction Book” award from The Society for the Protection of American Sanity for my classic work, “The Hidden Dangers of Bingo”.
Here’s just a small excerpt.
Let’s face it; bingo is hardly going to arouse a thrill-seeker into taking it up in attr