““With God are wisdom and might; he has counsel and understanding. If he tears down, none can rebuild; if he shuts a man in, none can open. If he withholds the waters, they dry up; if he sends them out, they overwhelm the land. With him are strength and sound wisdom; the deceived and the deceiver are his. He leads counselors away stripped, and judges he makes fools. He looses the bonds of kings and binds a waistcloth on their hips. He leads priests away stripped and overthrows the mighty. He deprives of speech those who are trusted and takes away the discernment of the elders. He pours contempt on princes and loosens the belt of the strong. He uncovers the deeps out of darkness and brings deep darkness to light. He makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away. He takes away understanding from the chiefs of the people of the earth and makes them wander in a pathless waste. They grope in the dark without light, and he makes them stagger like a drunken man.”
(Job 12:13-25 ESV)
“For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and of beast; who in your midst, O Egypt, sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh and all his servants; who struck down many nations and killed mighty kings, Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan, and gave their land as a heritage, a heritage to his people Israel.
Your name, O LORD, endures forever, your renown, O LORD, throughout all ages.”
(Psalms 135:5-13 ESV)
“The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
The LORD looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds. The king is not saved by his great army; a warrior is not delivered by his great strength. The war horse is a false hope for salvation, and by its great might it cannot rescue.
Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his steadfast love, that he may deliver their soul from death and keep them alive in famine.”
(Psalms 33:10-19 ESV)
“Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”
(Psalms 115:3 ESV)
“The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.”
(Proverbs 16:1 ESV)
“The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”
(Proverbs 16:4 ESV)
“The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.”
(Proverbs 16:9 ESV)
“The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.”
(Proverbs 16:33 ESV)
“The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.”
(Proverbs 21:1 ESV)
““Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’”
(Isaiah 46:8-10 ESV)
“all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?””
(Daniel 4:35 ESV)
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.”
(Romans 13:1 ESV)
In troubled times remember who God really is…we cause ourself much grief when our God is too small…
“Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.”
1 Timothy 2
1. Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
2. for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
A word from John MacArthur:
With the nation focused on the November elections, we thought a post on politics might be appropriate. The point of this article is not that we should abstain from any participation in the political process, but rather that we must keep our priorities straight as Christians. After all, the gospel, not politics, is the only true solution to our nation’s moral crisis.
We can’t protect or expand the cause of Christ by human political and social activism, no matter how great or sincere the efforts. Ours is a spiritual battle waged against worldly ideologies and dogmas arrayed against God, and we achieve victory over them only with the weapon of Scripture. The apostle Paul writes: “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:3-5).
We must reject all that is ungodly and false and never compromise God’s standards of righteousness. We can do that in part by desiring the improvement of society’s moral standards and by approving of measures that would conform government more toward righteousness. We do grieve over the rampant indecency, vulgarity, lack of courtesy and respect for others, deceitfulness, self-indulgent materialism, and violence that is corroding society. But in our efforts to support what is good and wholesome, reject what is evil and corrupt, and make a profoundly positive impact on our culture, we must use God’s methods and maintain scriptural priorities.
God is not calling us to wage a culture war that would seek to transform our countries into “Christian nations.” To devote all, or even most, of our time, energy, money, and strategy to putting a facade of morality on the world or over our governmental and political institutions is to badly misunderstand our roles as Christians in a spiritually lost world.
God has above all else called the church to bring sinful people to salvation through Jesus Christ. Even as the apostle Paul described his mission to unbelievers, so it is the primary task of all Christians to reach out to the lost “to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me [Christ]” (Acts 26:18; cf. Ex. 19:6; 1 Pet. 2:5, 9).
If we do not evangelize the lost and make disciples of new converts, nothing else we do for people–no matter how beneficial it seems–is of any eternal consequence. Whether a person is an atheist or a theist, a criminal or a model citizen, sexually promiscuous and perverse or strictly moral and virtuous, a greedy materialist or a gracious philanthropist–if he does not have a saving relationship to Christ, he is going to hell. It makes no difference if an unsaved person is for or against abortion, a political liberal or a conservative, a prostitute or a police officer, he will spend eternity apart from God unless he repents and believes the gospel.
When the church takes a stance that emphasizes political activism and social moralizing, it always diverts energy and resources away from evangelization. Such an antagonistic position toward the established secular culture invariably leads believers to feel hostile not only to unsaved government leaders with whom they disagree, but also antagonistic toward the unsaved residents of that culture–neighbors and fellow citizens they ought to love, pray for, and share the gospel with. To me it is unthinkable that we become enemies of the very people we seek to win to Christ, our potential brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Author John Seel pens words that apply in principle to Christians everywhere and summarize well the believer’s perspective on political involvement:
A politicized faith not only blurs our priorities, but weakens our loyalties. Our primary citizenship is not on earth but in heaven. … Though few evangelicals would deny this truth in theory, the language of our spiritual citizenship frequently gets wrapped in the red, white and blue. Rather than acting as resident aliens of a heavenly kingdom, too often we sound [and act] like resident apologists for a Christian America. … Unless we reject the false reliance on the illusion of Christian America, evangelicalism will continue to distort the gospel and thwart a genuine biblical identity…..
American evangelicalism is now covered by layers and layers of historically shaped attitudes that obscure our original biblical core. (The Evangelical Pulpit [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1993], 106-7)
By means of faithful preaching and godly living, believers are to be the conscience of whatever nation they reside in. You can confront the culture not with the political and social activism of man’s wisdom, but with the spiritual power of God’s Word. Using temporal methods to promote legislative and judicial change, and resorting to external efforts of lobbying and intimidation to achieve some sort of “Christian morality” in society is not our calling–and has no eternal value. Only the gospel rescues sinners from sin, death, and hell.
‘God is not calling us to wage a culture war that would seek to transform our countries into “Christian nations.” To devote all, or even most, of our time, energy, money, and strategy to putting a facade of morality on the world or over our governmental and political institutions is to badly misunderstand our roles as Christians in a spiritually lost world.’
Good words from Brother MacArthur. I recall reading a book by Cal Thomas several years ago with a similar point of view.
Christians with this mentality, IMHO, come off as goody-goodys to the rest of the world. The gospel is replaced with good behavior.
either I’m in some sort of ‘mood’ or else there are a lot of annoited words on this site today - I am blessed
I am curious who the audience is that MacArthur is talking to. I have a disagreement not with the message but with something other.
Puzz,
Don’t leave us hanging.
What is your disagreement?
” Such an antagonistic position toward the established secular culture invariably leads believers to feel hostile not only to unsaved government leaders with whom they disagree, but also antagonistic toward the unsaved residents of that culture–neighbors and fellow citizens they ought to love, pray for, and share the gospel with. To me it is unthinkable that we become enemies of the very people we seek to win to Christ, our potential brothers and sisters in the Lord.”
What he said.
Michael,
Where did you get that from Johnny Mac? I don’t see it on GTY.
Here ya go Papias http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/2572
I believe it was part of last Sundays sermon.
More from Johnny Mac:
“My point is not that Christians should remain totally uninvolved in politics or civic activities and causes. They ought to express their political beliefs in the voting booth, and it is appropriate to support legitimate measures designed to correct a glaring social or political wrong. Complete noninvolvement would be contrary to what God’s Word says about doing good in society: “Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith” (Gal. 6:10; cf. Titus 3:1-2). It would also display a lack of gratitude for whatever amount of religious freedom the government allows us to enjoy. Furthermore, such pious apathy toward government and politics would reveal a lack of appreciation for the many appropriate legal remedies believers in democracies have for maintaining or improving the civil order. A certain amount of healthy and balanced concern with current trends in government and the community is acceptable, as long as we realize that that interest is not vital to our spiritual growth, our righteous testimony, or the advancement of the kingdom of Christ. Above all, the believer’s political involvement should never displace the priority of preaching and teaching the gospel.”
Allow me to make a metaphor to explain my disagreement.
We have a fellow here at work that has been around over thirty five years and he is very well respected and a sage of sorts. He has mentored many people and has been a positive influence to the young and old alike. With a full year to go before his retirement he stands up on the lunchroom tables to give an assessment of the environment at the workplace, the conditions and the overall demeanor. Everyone looks at each other and wonder…where did all that come from? You see, his timing was off. The old man needed to wait until the last day to give his appraisal.
In the same way Johnny Mac is that well respected man but his timing is off. While the election is almost over there is a lot of work that needs to be done. His audience at that time on November 5th should be those people that invested part of their energy and life into the political process that was theirs to cooperate in. It would then be entirely appropriate to lay the swords of politics down and remember just where our citizenship is. There really is no doubt in the minds of many Christians that are in the midst of not just a dismal presidential campaign but on the edge of holding back the super majority that can happen November fourth that may be part of what we all will have to deal with in the coming decades.
I however am not sure who he was talking to and what the audience was when he made his comments. It might have been entirely appropriate. I admire and even use his study bible but the old man really needs to sit down, be quiet and wait until this thing is over. There’s plenty of work to still be done until this whole thing is over.
Sorry for the bad grammar and run on sentences. I was in a hurry.
Not on topic, but this may make a good one:
Proverbs 6:16
These six [things] the Lord hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness [who] speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.
Puzz,
I’m truly shocked at your statements.
Have we come to a point where politics overrides sound preaching and biblical precepts?
I truly do not understand…
Michael,
When and where we work our sphere of influence is there to pray, love and influence people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The comments of Seel would not include me or those that find ourselves working for a candidate to win an election. The idea of wrapping the red white and blue around the cross is a disgusting thought. It would no more override my being a Christian than to become a christian-mechanic if I were in the auto fixing trade. If in the campaign office or in the church our Lord goes with us and live through us by the power of His Holy Spirit. The precepts and preaching are always in play and compromising them in the fashion that MacArthur intones before the election is finished; discourages the people trying to do the hard work of holding the line and applying the salt to a rotting culture; and not just occupying a pew and doing nothing.
I think you got me all wrong.
Puzz,
Where you and I differ greatly is that you believe that somehow the current group of politicians are “salt”
I think they are salt that has lost it’s savor and they don’t represent our values anymore than those who are the opposition.
I do not at all question your motives, nor your works…I would trust you with my family and my life, but we see this issue very differently.
I agree completely with MacArthur here as well…
“I’ll show you that in a moment, but first I want to stress this: Nothing in the past half century has done more damage to the evangelical cause than the notion that the best way for Christians to influence society is by wielding our collective political clout. If you think the most important answer to the ills of our society is a legislative remedy; if you imagine that political activism is the most effective way for the church to influence culture; or if you suppose the church is going to win the world for Christ by lobbying in the halls of Congress and by rallying Christians to vote for this or that type of legislation—then both your trust and your priorities are misplaced.
Personally, I think the tendency to seek legislative remedies for every social ill is one of the absolute worst tendencies of contemporary secular society, and it disturbs me greatly to see Christians more or less follow that pattern blindly. To borrow a thought from the title of John MacArthur’s least-popular book ever, Government Cannot Save Us. The only power that can truly and permanently rescue human society from its own spiritual ills is the transforming power of gospel of Jesus Christ. And that happens through the regeneration of individual human hearts, right? We need to remind ourselves of that fact often, and put more of our energies into the task of evangelism.
We are pastors and church leaders who formally and confessionally recognize the authority of Scripture. Practically the worst kind of spiritual treason we could ever commit would be to supplant the gospel message with a different message, or to allow an earthly agenda to crowd out our spiritual duties. That is exactly the risk we take when we pour money and resources into political and legislative remedies for our society’s spiritual problems.
At the moment, America is in the throes of one of the most hotly contested presidential elections ever. For the first time in more than two decades, the so-called religious right has no clear-cut favorite candidate in the race. None of the likely nominees from either party has credibly expressed any distinctly evangelical convictions. In fact, I think it would be fair to say that the leading candidates on both sides are essentially secular humanists. The candidate who it now appears will be the Republican nominee is a man who has been wobbly on the issues of abortion and same-sex unions, and he has repeatedly made it clear that he doesn’t share the passions of evangelical voters. He once referred to evangelical Republicans as “agents of intolerance.”
Now, consider the bitter irony of this: For more than two decades the number-one issue on the agenda of the evangelical wing of the religious right has been abortion. The number-one legislative goal of evangelical political activists has been to overturn Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court ruling that effectively legalized abortion. Politically-active evangelicals have been instrumental—in fact, they have been the decisive factor—in the election of every Republican president from Ronald Reagan until now. And yet not only have they failed to achieve their single most-coveted political goal, but they are now approaching a presidential election without a single viable candidate who shares their views.
And meanwhile, if anything, America’s moral decline has accelerated dramatically since evangelicals became politically aggressive in the late 1970s. Although by most accounts evangelicals constitute the largest single voting bloc in America, they have been remarkably ineffective when it comes to using politics to reverse America’s moral and spiritual decline. In fact, if you measure their success or failure according to their own stated political ambitions, evangelicals have failed spectacularly in America’s political arena. Over the past quarter-century, they have not accomplished any of their long-term legislative or constitutional goals.
Worst of all, during that same period of time, the evangelical movement has completely lost its spiritual influence, because the evangelical segment of the church has grown increasingly worldly. Evangelicals have become accustomed to compromise. They have abandoned (or else are in the process of abandoning) virtually all the doctrinal distinctives that made them distinct from Roman Catholics and nominal Christians whose faith amounts to a kind of civil religion. Evangelicals have pretty much forfeited whatever real moral and spiritual authority their movement ever had.
Consider the fact that almost no one in the evangelical world had more political savvy than Ted Haggard, the now-discredited president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He actually advised the White House on evangelical issues. Before his fall from grace, The Wall Street Journal called him “one of the nation’s most politically influential” ministers in America, and Harper’s Magazine said this about him: “No pastor in America holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism than does Pastor Ted.” But whatever his accomplishments in the political arena, by his own admission Ted Haggard was a liar and a fraud in his private life.
I’m not suggesting that political activism is what made Ted Haggard a hypocrite, nor am I saying that he is typical of everyone in the mainstream of evangelical politics. I certainly hope he was a singular case.
But I am suggesting that any religious organization that’s more concerned with political expediency than with biblical truth is by definition following the error of the Pharisees and will breed the grossest kind of hypocrisy. (I’m also suggesting that if the National Association of Evangelicals had been more concerned about their leaders’ spiritual qualifications and less enamored with worldly skills like personal charisma and political shrewdness, they would never have had Ted Haggard as their president. He had never really distinguished himself in any of the biblical categories the apostle Paul outlined as qualifications for an elder. His one qualification was his mastery of the political process.)
And let’s face it, brethren: Whether we like it or not, in the eyes of an observant world, Ted Haggard seems like a perfect mascot for the evangelical right.
Despite our outspokenness on selected issues in the political realm, American evangelicals have sent a mixed and often flatly contradictory message to anyone who looks at the big picture. Evangelical pulpits are notoriously weak and shallow. Evangelical churches are lukewarm and worldly. Evangelical people as a community tend to be increasingly unholy and are now virtually indistinguishable in lifestyle and behavior from their non-Christian neighbors. Evangelical leaders on the whole seem more concerned with being stylish and admired than with being clear and consistent.
For more than a decade now we have been hearing poll data that suggest people who identify themselves as evangelicals are just as susceptible to divorce and alcohol addiction as their unbelieving neighbors—which can only mean that our church rolls are filled with unconverted people. In fact, just about the only significant difference remaining between evangelicals and unbelievers is how we vote. (And certain forces in the Emerging Church are doing all they can to bring the church in line with the world on that front, too.) No wonder the world hasn’t taken the evangelical wing of the religious right seriously. The evangelical movement hasn’t shown itself serious about what we profess to believe.
How did the evangelical movement get so far off track? I wouldn’t suggest that evangelicalism’s recent obsession with political activism is the only factor, but I do think it’s a major one. If the same energies and resources that were poured into failed political efforts had been channeled into evangelism instead, I’m convinced that would have been instrumental in producing more spiritual good and hindering more of society’s evils than all our lobbying, demonstrating, and voting combined.
In fact, it is my conviction that because they have invested so much in the political process, evangelicals have weakened their own movement with a tendency to compromise; we have sacrificed our evangelical distinctives, and we have gone far off message from the central truths of the gospel. Political activism has been a disaster for the American evangelical movement on every front. Not only have we completely failed at the political process; we have failed even more egregiously to remain distinct from the world.”
I do not think any politician is the “salt” we both understand it to be. Flawed men with hearts that are deceitful is what we have to work with. What makes the difference is which ones are less flawed and less deliberate about spreading their deception to gain power over the lives of the citizens. Ambitious men we always have. I just don’t believe that all politicians have the ambition and deception that I see in the Democrats that are running against my friends. What are we to do but lie down and let them have their way with us? (paints an ugly picture doesn’t it?)
I believe actively resisting them with what we can do and that includes talking to people and telling them what we are for. In the course of doing that we always get the chance to spread the Gospel in what we say and how we conduct ourselves. I just see it as another opportunity of sorts for doing what comes naturally anyways.
Thank you for your friendship and listening ear. I feel the same for you too Michael. I just am not ready to quit until after the election and MacArthur’s sermon is timed wrong is all. I don’t disagree with it’s content just it’s timing.
Ken
I mean… puzzletop
Puzz,
My guess is that we agree on far more than distance and typing can show.
You will be in my prayers for great, God given success in your works for the next couple of weeks and always.
Puzz,
I hear what you are saying. The election is so close to the finish, the last thing you wanna hear right now is, “we are not of this world, yada, yada..”.
I don’t think Johnny Mac is saying that we should get involved, just keep focused on what is really important.
God Bless.
Papias should have said “I don’t think Johnny Mac is saying that we should not get involved, just keep focused on what is really important.”
Mind moving… faster… than fingers….
There seems to be some sort of conviction here that political activity by Christians is religious activity.
Christians who build boats should build good boats.
Not Christian boats, usually, just good boats.
Because we live a democracy, those of us who are not convicted felons (and to a lesser degree, even those who are) have a role to play in the political process.
We should play that political role well, and also build good boats, and write good software, too.
The demotivating red herring - and I agree with puzz if I understand his point - is to say (between now and next Tues especially), Hey, Christian, you’re not leading anyone to Christ by building a good boat, or by being involved in politics, so back off.
I will endeavor to play my role in the political process prayerfully and with excellence, just as in everything else I do.
In this case, it means I will vote for and work for the McCain/Palin ticket. And Gordon Smith. And a few others.
Not because they are Christians who will usher in the millenium, any more than what I do at my job will.
But because that will make for a better country.
It probably doesn’t make too much sense to become emotionally involved in today’s electoral outcome…remember how the Democrats hollered when Bush was declared the winner in Florida? Did it hit them where they lived? For all we know, the fix is in this time, barring a landslide.
but…
Of course, we can and should voice opinions - IMO
One of the dear women here suggested, a few days back, something to the effect that it was our (Christians) patriotic duty to pray. That is probably our best chance to affect the outcome.
Skip,
Yes. We are not trying to usher in the millennium. Exactly right. Thank you.
pzz
Skip,
“The demotivating red herring - and I agree with puzz if I understand his point - is to say (between now and next Tues especially), Hey, Christian, you’re not leading anyone to Christ by building a good boat, or by being involved in politics, so back off.”
I think that the real problem between now and next Tuesday will be the number of Christians who will be challenging the Christianity of those who disagree and want to vote in a way that doesn’t line up with the Right.
There are honest disagreements over what constitutes a good boat, and likewise over what constitutes good government.
Some of us are befuddled that a mature and orthodox bible-believer could vote for a candidate with the public positions of Obama on abortion, homeschooling, and many other areas.
I do not see anyone calling bible-believing supporters of Obama non-Christian. I think that there is some basis for questioning their judgement.
I very very much agree that prayer is “probably our best chance to affect the outcome.”
Scream for mercy as loud as is socially acceptable for your living situation.
We pray, we work and finally at the end of the day bow to the Great Sovereign will of our great King. Whatever the outcome we know that God means it for our good and His glory. Life will go on and we return to evangelizing with renewed vigor outside the polls again. Challenging the Christianity of other Christians is the last thing on the minds of the people I know. The doctrines from the Bible might be challenged but once the vote is cast it’s a done deal. Whoever they want is their business. It’s a much bigger fish to fry when it comes to correcting heresies and bad doctrine among the faithful. Imagine trying to get TD Jakes to change his mind about Obama or his Oneness doctrine. Get the picture? His doctrine is worse than his choice of presidential candidates. I doubt they are connected other than one exploiting the other for his own ambitions.
John MacArthur said “It would also display a lack of gratitude for whatever amount of religious freedom the government allows us to enjoy.”
Really? Religious freedom is afforded to us by the ‘government’?
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.”
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Is that quote really from MacArthur?
What a bizarre collection of nonsense. The problem is that people fail to believe “biblical truth” or that there hasn’t been enough “evangelism.” The problem is that Christians don’t lead transformed lives.
The problem isn’t that people are “unconverted,” whatever that means. The problem is that they are not transformed.
Our forefathers were absolutely brilliant. They gave us the most amazing document and formation of governmental structure ever known to mankind. Most of them gave their lives for that reality, and signed the deed with their own blood.
It’s that lack of statesmanship and conviction I see lacking today, not only on the governmental level, but in the pulpits as well. Most of the men I see today on both levels are a bunch of marshmallows.
Scott,”It’s that lack of statesmanship and conviction I see lacking today, not only on the governmental level, but in the pulpits as well. Most of the men I see today on both levels are a bunch of marshmallows.” true and sadly, when things get hot marshmallows melt into useless goo.
sorry - couldn’t resist
My very wise elderly (as in his 90’s) uncle just observed (finance was his career): “It will take a repeat of the ’30s before we get back on track.” My concern is that we may not get back…well, maybe that means we’re closer to winding this thing up…
Btw, I don’t mean to infer that Guys in the pulpit here on the PP are marshmallows. You Guys are all like the Rock Of Gibraltar
Skip Franklin,
Any specifics on Obama on homeschooling?
The cry of the innocent blood compels me to vote for McCain.
Not surprisingly, I think MacArthur hit the nail on the head.
This all started with Jerry Falwell and his ideal that we will change the culture by political means, and every election we hear the same set of talking points from both sides. And every election the world fails to come to an end for half of us. And at the end of this election this world will once again fail to come to an end for half of us (Should the Lord tarry).
I ask again, if the Christians who are giving massive quantities of cash to thier favorite candidate, be they Democrat or Republican, instead gave those millions of dollars what would the effect be on the society?
The world was drawn to the first church because they saw the change, now the “Church” is just another in a long line of P.A.C’s
I use to believe we would change the culture through our service to one another and through the Gospel, I have tried to repent of that heresy but have failed miserably.
brian, the reason you have “failed miserably” in your repentance is because service to one another and the Gospel are God’s ordained methods of change. And people like you are God’s chosen agents of change. No repentance needed brother!
brian, but you knew that already.
Brian,
Let me introduce you to the doctrine of vocation.
Simply put, you are “God’s mask” in every situation in your life — at work, at home, with friends, out in the community, etc. Not only with church activities and evangelism, but in every sphere.
No need to feel any guilt, my brother, unless you want to.
Puzz said: “We pray, we work and finally at the end of the day bow to the Great Sovereign will of our great King. Whatever the outcome we know that God means it for our good and His glory.”
I agree wholeheartedly. One thing for sure, we will not riot or burn cars. Our hope is in Jesus not the government. If McCain should win, the reaction will probably be rioting. I would not want to be in a major metro area if Obama loses.
sunamijim –
If McCain should win, the reaction will probably be rioting. I would not want to be in a major metro area if Obama loses.
What are you saying exactly?
I think my words were pretty plain and clear. When liberals lose, they throw fits.
Let me get this right…liberals riot and burn cars when they’re upset?
Right…
My neighbors are going to burn down my lilly white subdivision using the other neighbors McCain sign as kindling.
Say what you really mean…black people will riot if Obama loses..
Now go ahead and defend either interpretation of what you just said.
I’ll bet Grendal is loading up on incendiary devices as we speak…
Not…
A riot?!?!?
I am making a prediction that is pretty safe to make since he will most likely win. I wasn’t making a racial statement. A lot of his supporters are young people, and a lot of them are ignorant. These are the same folks that riot regulary here in Seattle. When is the last time you saw a bunch of young conservatives riot?
So now we have liberals, and ignorant young people rioting.
I would lay the shovel down and have a drink if I were you…
Michael are you in bad mood? Are the polls not looking good for Warren?
I will make the case for my statement again. Read carefully…
B.O.’s has a lot of support from young people. His supporters are liberal. He will no doubt have the support of most inner-city poor people because he is a vote for expanding welfare to them. That is nothing new. Beyond the “elites” this is the Democratic base.
If you look at past riots, like WTO, G8 summits, etc. They are the same demographic as B.O.’s get out the vote soldiers. These guys riot when things don’t go their way. Is there an element of race? Obviously, Yes. The candidate is black.
I think you dislike me. Is it because of the teen beat magazine?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……That hole is getting deeper!
Michael,
I will be in the middle of an urban area Tuesday night.
I volunteer to provide up-to-the-minute riot coverage for the blog
sunamijim,
You made two blanket statements that you now want to expand on.
The problem I have is that when you go to Democratic headquarters here you see a lot of blue haired old ladies and young professionals that I can’t see burning down the house.
While there may indeed be riots in some metro areas, to broadbrush all liberals or young people the way you did is careless at best and asinine at worst.
We’ll go with careless…
Suna,
I’ve got another shovel if you want to head for the center of the earth.
BrianD,
Make sure you get us photos!
Um…what is teen beat magazine?
‘to broadbrush all liberals or young people the way you did is careless at best and asinine at worst.
We’ll go with careless…’
Michael,
If Luther were here, he would salute you on keeping the Eighth
Commandment.
Michael, I did not “broad brush” anyone. I did not say that all liberals or democrats would riot. I am just saying that it would be a likely outcome of an Obama defeat. You make a big deal out of nothing. Even using the word asinine.
Nice effect. You don’t have to actually call me that, I would have to go to the city of refuge if you did. But you can type it and then say, “oh yeah careless, that’s what I mean.”
Michael, Perhaps jim meant Tiger Beat magazine.
Jim, What happens if BO gets elected? A bunch of people making more than 150K go rioting? I have seen people on the internet say that there will be riots whoever wins.
I recall that some cities police go on alert whenever their sports teams play in the finals. I also recall that there have been riots in cities that won championships, not just the losers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sports_riots
Papias, could be. I am speculating, that is all. Much ado about nothing really.
For being a “place of grace”, you guys can certainly pounce without mercy.
People who make $150,000.00 don’t riot, they work.
“For being a “place of grace”, you guys can certainly pounce without mercy.”
You asked when the last time conservatives rioted!
suna
I just think your statements are so broad. I’m sure you are being misunderstood.
I mentioned “Teen Beat” not “Tiger Beat”, for the record.
The Wassup guys are back!
These guys always totally crack(ed) me up.
Ignore the politics if that bothers you…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLmtGU6m3zs&NR=1
The Wassup guys are back!
They kill me. I find them hysterically funny.
Just ignore the politics and the beginning and end, if that bothers you…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLmtGU6m3zs
Am I being moderated for posting a link?
sunamijim,
This is what you said:
“I think my words were pretty plain and clear. When liberals lose, they throw fits.”
You also posited a we against them…”we” won’t riot and “they” will.
Both statements would seem odd to me coming from a pastor who should be seeking “them” for the kingdom of God.
This is another excellent example of how (in my opinion) we allow politics to divide the church and color how we look at each other.
I don’t know you so I can’t like or dislike you…I simply disagree with much of what you post here and this is an interactive blog.
“coming from a pastor who should be seeking “them” for the kingdom of God.”
Please, that is really reaching! Are you saying, because I make a hypothetical, speculative, observation, that I have no love for the lost.
You are being really, really, childish here.
Thats not what I said…I said that comments like you made are divisive and I don’t think it’s appropriate in the church.
I think you would have a point if this wasn’t a discussion that has become about politics, and if I had made reference to any individual. I just think you jumped on my speculation. Really, an unprofitable discussion at best. I will drop it, and “hassle you” another day.
I will come by and repent next week if I am a false prophet.
When people who make over 150,000 riot they dont steall TV’s they go on Government backed vacations to Spas at the cost of $640,000. And they dont even have to say sorry.
A while back Richard Abanes posted a link to an Obama ‘Tax savings’ calculator that supposedly calculates your ‘tax savings’ under the Obama administration. In fact, they have a current ad running on tv in which they claim the Heritage Foundation confirms and supports these calculations. However, the Heritage Foundation released the following statement today:
“The Heritage Foundation today asked Barack Obama to immediately pull two ads that misrepresent the views of Heritage’s Rea Hederman. The campaign has released a 30-second TV ad with false information and repeats it on the campaign website. The following letter was sent by Heritage lawyer Alan P. Dye to the Obama campaign.
Dear Senator Obama:
Two recent campaign advertisements seriously misrepresent the views of my client, The Heritage Foundation. They suggest, quite falsely, that The Heritage Foundation and one of its analysts support your tax plan.
The print ad on your Website as well as your ad entitled “Try This” reference a quote from policy analyst Rea Hederman. In fact, Mr. Hederman never said what is quoted there. Rather, the words you quote are from a New York Sun reporter who interviewed Mr. Hederman and summarized his views erroneously.
That the reporter’s summary is erroneous is evident from the actual quotes from Mr. Hederman presented in the article, which make it quite clear that Mr. Hederman believes your tax plan would be bad not only for the country, but for the middle class. By omitting the direct quotes from Heritage that are contained in the article and attributing to Heritage a conflicting statement not made by its analyst, the advertisement appears to be an intentional attempt to mislead.
Surely there can be no doubt within your campaign as to how Heritage truly views your tax plan. When one of your economic advisors, Jeffrey Liebman, made this same misrepresentation in a September 4, 2008 letter to The Wall Street Journal, Mr. Hederman promptly sent a corrective and very public letter. It appeared in the September 16 issue of The Wall Street Journal under the title: “A Bad Plan That Is Less Bad Is Still Not A Very Good Plan.” In it, Mr. Hederman strenuously decried Mr. Liebman’s blatant misrepresentation and set the record straight.
The Heritage Foundation believes that your advertisements’ use of its name is not only not a fair use of its intellectual property, but is an intentional attempt to mislead and misinform voters. As a responsible candidate, you should insist that your campaign cease to run these false advertisements immediately.
Very truly yours,
Alan P. Dye”
Scott,
Here is the latest advise on the economic crisis. I have checked it out and it is true.
If you had purchased $1,000 of AIG stock one year ago, you would have
$42 left.
With Lehman, you would have $6.60 left. With Fannie or Freddie, you
would have less than $5 left.
But… if you had purchased $1,000 worth of beer one year ago, drank
all of the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum recycling
REFUND, you would have had $214.
Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink
heavily and recycle.
It’s called the 401-Keg…..
MLD! I love that!!! LOL!
In addition, my son is calling his 401k plan his 201k plan now
Lute - that was hilarious!!
MLD…too funny.
London,
Glad you liked it…those guys crack me up!
Twenty years of tutoring the next president of the United States about those United States, here’s how you retire:
http://www.foxnews.com/video-search/m/21322171/web_exclusive.htm?pageid=23170
BORRRRRRRRRRRRRING!
That’s not a boring video at all. Like I said, looks like the KKK of the U S of A has been berry berry good to ole Jeremiah.
Did you notice, hardly a tree in the neighborhood
Let me repeat:
BORRRRRRRRRRRRING.
No one cares about this stuff. Except the choir.
I voted today (early voting in TX)…so at least it’s over with me. Now I just need to sleep from tonight till Wednesday & ignore the meantime.
Can’t wait until Thursday. Cause wednesday will be someone whinning about election fraud and thursday we can go back to battling the ODM’s.
Looks Like Rev Wright has moved in with the Copelands, Didnt they have some Republican presidential hopeful everyone was drooling over in thier pocket before ole McCain took the Nomination and all of a sudden wasn’t such a bad dude after all?
They are all crooked,McCain prost*tuted himself for the bail out pork, Obama is Whor*ng to the Oprah crowd.
At least my third party vote means I can sleep at night even if it is a “wasted” vote of clear conscience.
Isn’t today Thursday??????????????
“If Obama loses it will spark the second American Civil War. Blood will run in the streets, believe me. And it’s not a coincidence that President Bush recalled soldiers from Iraq for Dick Cheney to lead against American citizens in the streets.”
I guess I’m not the only one.
Source: http://www.observer.com/2008/politics/erica-jong-tells-italians-obama-loss-will-spark-second-american-civil-war-blood-will-r
Sunamijim posted: “If you look at past riots, like WTO, G8 summits, etc. They are the same demographic as B.O.’s get out the vote soldiers. These guys riot when things don’t go their way.”
Michael and any others for what it is worth: I literally watched the WTO Riots start in Seattle at Lunchtime, I was there praying and trying to share and interject in their rally that sparked the wildfire of hate in their rioting.
I watched the rioting and destruction all week long (during the work day).
I also watched a Republican Conservative Christian (Sheriff Dave Reichert) live out his faith literally on the streets and restore order and peace for all.
The Seattle Police Chief (formerly assistant chief in San Diego)made a bunch of wise a** remarks about tolerance, etc, but did nothing for the people.
Historically in the last 60 years has there been any grass roots Republican Conservative rioting? Just a question.
I think sunamijim is just wanting to discuss a situation. Since when did discussion become divisive unless someone throws out the quick charge that it is “divisive” before discussing.
Sunamijim~ I saw that article this morning and thought about posting it, however, I figured I’d be accused of being a racist or at a minimum Lute will post BOOOORRRRIIIINNNGGGG!
Hi, Scott,
I won’t say it…
Hi, Lute! Happy Reformation Day! I’m dressed as Martin Luther with my 3 ring stein and all!
I had a sad conversation with a young gal at our church, she is voting for Obama cause “he seems nicer”
sunamijim,
Would it have been a more fruitful conversation if she had said that she was voting for McCain because he was a prisoner of war?
Also, nice is a good character point.
MLD,
I’m with you. I’ll take nice over nasty, any day of the week.
It may come as a shock, but in a post-modern world, to many people, especially the younger crowd, how you act is just as important, if not more important, than what you say.
Scott,
I lift a stein to ya!
Happy Reformation Day!