The trailer is out for the new Larry Norman film "Fallen Angel".
The older I get the more I believe the lesson behind all the exposes is to never do anything noteworthy enough to be noticed lest you end up in the next one.
There is some "take heed lest you fall" value I guess in knowing that Norman had a dark side and that A.W. Tozer was a lousy family man and that A.W. Pink was just weird…but if the darkness is the story instead of the blood of Christ that justified these men this is nothing but sinful voyeurism.
We don't have to protect the flock from dead men.
At least that's what I think this morning…
Another matter now..
I am a supporter of Israel and a progressive dispensationalist.
Lets make that clear.
However…
Why doesn't the church demand that Israel move toward religious freedom?
Why do we hold rallies for her and never mention that we would all get arrested for proselytizing if we attempted to carry out the Great Commission inside her borders?
How come the friendship seems very one sided?
Do we deny a part of our faith by not demanding the freedom to proclaim Christ?
Just asking…
I've had bronchitis since Christmas, so I start the year behind again…be patient please if you're expecting something. 
FIRST!
Good morning, Michael. How are you, my friend?
Morning,CK!
I’m recovering.
Off to work for a couple hours now…
Kind of early to be heading off to work, isn’t it?
For the reasons you mention above, Michael, I usually say that I’m a cautious supporter of Israel.
“…but if the darkness is the story instead of the blood of Christ that justified these men this is nothing but sinful voyeurism.”
That pretty much nails it right there. Thank you Jesus for Your shed blood!
Third!
Morning guys/gals.
Just because we support Israel, does that allow us the right to force the religious freedoms of our country on them? (BTW I agree that they SHOULD allow religious freedom, and am also angered that they have the audacity to arrest those that are most on their side). They are a sovreign nation. We give money/support to countries that KILL missionaries, burn down churches, imprison people for decades in prisons worse than we can imagine. The very UN that makes world level decisions is poulated by countries of that same caliber, and hold their meetings on our soil. Dictators from those countries come here and call for our extermination. Yet we let it slide.
Christianity is not a this for that issue IMO. Do we drop support as Christians to any of these nations if they do not extend to us the freedom we have here? Do we quit going forth and declaring the gospel? When do we get to draw the line at who deserves the Gospel?
I have the utmost respect for missionaries, they go places and endure things I cannot imagine. Most of them, from what I have read and heard, would never reject the possibility to tell one more person about Christ. Regardless of the situation.
Was supposed to be third, but got flying fingers syndrome….
“A Bible Story by David di Sabatino.” What the h@#^!!!!?
CK,
You okay? You appear to have hit a few keys amiss. Did you mean, “What the hook?
hock?
hank?
heck?
host?
Hi Tony! Yep, sometimes my fingers speak before my mouth. I like the sound of “What the hank?” but people might take me for a Hank Hannegraaf fan. So maybe I’ll try “What the hock?!”
TonyP, thank you for saying it for me and better this am…
Israel (geographic for the naysayers) is walking a fine line of courtesy to the U.S. Christians and respect for that important segment of their population who are devout, militant followers of the First Testament. May God open their eyes.
CK,
Psalm,
May He indeed.
I’ve stated my position clearly about the Norman video in previous threads. I feel Sabitino is taking advantage of our need for “dirt”. It is nothing less than Gonzo Journalism–National Inquirer crap. If he’d been alive in David’s day he would have done a video of his life and the was a womanizer and a poor family man. If he’s been a live in Christ’s day, he may have done a piece for the Jewish leaders on how Jesus was actually an illegitimate child of Mary.
In the past few months after hearing Sabitino was working on this piece, I have had time to think. I still can’t see what good it does for the Normans or the family of Christ.
Are we surprised that a person–any person even a famous one has sin in their life! Come on. Paul was a killer of Christians, Peter had compulsive tendencies…I could go on and on
Folks don’t watch this video and don’t buy it! If Sabatino and other like him realize there is no money to be made (even just covering his expenses) and there is no audience, he may stop. If we don’t send the message now, then it will only get worse.
Steve,
Is that the same Gonzo from the Muppets? Because I didn’t know he writes.
Fallen Angel is a misnomer. Underachieving Saint or Sin-entangled Brother may be closer to the truth, but the careless exaggeration in the title bugs me right out of the gate. Hype simply annoys me anymore. When a producer or advertiser utilizes hype, it makes me think the substance ain’t up to snuff. Besides, the Bible urges us to assist the fallen brother taking heed to his sin lest we, too, fall. It commands us to urge one another on toward and in love. I doubt whether this video will contain those messages.
fil,
But if we reach out in love, how can we show that horrible sinner how horrible he/she is? Plus there’s not alot of money in love…
TonyP,
as they say, it costs too much not to.
The message that may come out of this video is that American Christianity has some serious issues with hero worship and idolizing ‘the Christian version of the worldly act.’ Again, the bible warns us not to lay hands too quickly on a person who is immature in the faith or he may be overcome with pride and fall. Perhaps Norman isn’t the real focus here, we are. Maybe if we viewed the video as an expose’ on Christianity instead of Norman, there would be value.
When the Lonnie Frisbee movie was in the works, I found Sabbatini’s site (was over 3 yrs ago) and e-mailed him.
He is not a believer., in fact had some really starnge theology-I don’t rememebr what it was specifically but it was odd.
In my opinion, he had some important things to bring out in referecne to the history of the CC movement -I learned alot-I never knew about Frisbee and was wondering why in all the books I read (S. Smith’s) I never heard about him.
But it was clear to me in my few e-mails with David S. that he was not a believer and thus an enemy of the gospel. That sounds harsh but it’s reality. So his motives are questioned.
S. Smith= Chuck Smith
Fil
Yeah…What you said!! Perfectly stated
Concerned,
How do you know Dave isn’t a believer? Really? You have no authority or right to judge. Please be careful about what you assert.
I figured some political humor might be in store. The following is a funny and true story shared by a teacher who teaches AP Government at (Name deleted)High School . In class they were discussing the qualifications to be president of the United States. It was pretty simple. The candidate must be a natural born citizen of at least 35 years of age.
However, one girl in the class immediately started in on how unfair was the requirement to be a natural born citizen. In short, her opinion was this requirement prevented many capable individuals from becoming president. The teacher and the class were just taking it in and letting her rant, but everyone’s jaw hit the floor when she wrapped up her argument by stating…
“What makes a natural born citizen any more qualified to lead this country than one born by C-section?”
And someday she’ll vote! She probably drives already……
scotty,
with seventh graders, they say and write gems like that daily. I stay in education for the sheer entertainment value.
The debate over this movie mirrors the ones on other threads.
The shock over the sins of famous Christians is simply another statement on the fact that evangelicalism has a deficient view of the nature of sin and an exalted idea of human holiness.
The reality that we are simply beggars telling other beggars where we found bread has been replaced by the illusion of mostly complete sanctification.
…so Michael, I shouldn’t change my name to Baker?
Fil,
But… What about Pastor Wonder Bread?
“Just because we support Israel, does that allow us the right to force the religious freedoms of our country on them? (BTW I agree that they SHOULD allow religious freedom, and am also angered that they have the audacity to arrest those that are most on their side). They are a sovreign nation. We give money/support to countries that KILL missionaries, burn down churches, imprison people for decades in prisons worse than we can imagine.”
If you would be so kind, can you name the other countries in the world that the Church, not the United States, but the Church supports in the same way they support Isreal? Do we as a Church Give money to China? Libya? Iran?
If you take away the name of Israel, and insert any other nation on Gods green earth that Removes Bibles from homes ala Ferenheit 451 and burns them in the village square with the Mayors support and blessing, thats citicenzs climb over walls with Barbed wire to beat worshippers and attack a Pastor, eventually throwing him into the Baptismal and ruining the Worship of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, That detains American Pastors at the airport until the Swear under written oath NOT to spread the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that closes the Church of the Nativity on Easter Sunday to keep worshipers out, that decides which declared Christians are allowed to visit thier families on Christmas. Thank God for the Roman Catholic church, they at least remembered the Palestinian Christians, who have been in this place since Christ walked the earth, a chance to have a Christmas service after Isreal removed thier right to go to worship on Christmas.
The record is long and disgusting, and the church still sends monetary and physical support to Isreal, and for the Most Part ignores the Palestinian Christian. Say that Palestine has never existed or whatever else, but tell that to those who have worshipped Christ in spirit and truth for 2000 years in the same church that St. Mark the Gospel Writer preached in.
Sorry, again should have just gone away I know.
Blessings
Lutheran,
How do you know Dave isn’t a believer? Really? You have no authority or right to judge. Please be careful about what you assert.
I knew there would be a problem with my statement.
He is a universalist if I remember correctly.
I would not have said that if it wasn’t clear to me.
You can e-mail him and ask him directly if he is a Christian.
I am sure he will get back to you.
Filly, here’s one for ya!
A Meal To Die For! http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4632991n
Eric,
You’re asking legitimate questions, ones that we need to think about and talk about.
However, we won’t have dialog unless we dial the passion down a notch and remember we’re talking with family.
I would like us to both think on and discuss these questions…
Speaking of documenting things, I know that Christians have been involved in humanitarian support for Jews in Israel, but I didn’t know that there are Christians giving monetary support to the government? How do they do this?
Perhaps a better title for this film would have been “The life and Times of the Common Christian.” subtitled “The Man for whom Jesus died.”
‘He is a universalist if I remember correctly.’
Concerned,
Wow.
So you’re judging someone’s salvation by something you ‘may remember correctly’?
Here’s Luther’s commentary on the Eighth Commandment:
‘Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor’
What does this mean? We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, nor defame our neighbor, but defend him, speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.
You could have just kept quiet and not said anything, Concerned.
We all need to be putting the best construction on what others say, not the worst.
Eric,
from a present-day practical standpoint, your observations/objections are meaningful and accurate. Evangelical/Fundamentalist christians have given Israel a blank check or a free pass, regardless of their performance. Often what is overlooked is that a change of heart regarding one’s view of Christ isn’t political or social pressure, but the work of the Holy Spirit wooing, drawing, and enlightening the person/people. To pray for the peace of Jerusalem is a much more valid tactic than withholding financial or political support, for it partners with God himself in the process. Give the $ to missionaries. For Israel to have a place in future prophetic scenarios will be a work of God, not a manipulation of mankind, Christian or not.
Lutheran,
You could have just kept quiet and not said anything, Concerned.
Michael, would you care to delete my comments about Sabbatini?
I stand corrected.
Wow Lutheran, I think you are coming down harder on me than anything I have said and are judging me, and attributing to me motives that are not accurate.
Josh Pollack noted in the Jewish World Review that a signi?cant chunk of donations to the United Jewish Appeal are from Christians. Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, director of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, a Chicago-based organization, consisting mainly of Evangelical Christians donors, have contributed over 5 million dollars to the United Jewish appeal in 1997 and in 2006 the yearly donations skyrocketed to 39 million dollars. The Jerusalem Post suggested he claimed his organization to be the largest single donor to the United Jewish Appeal. Rabbi Yechiel’s statement may be hyperbole but it demonstrates how important Christian ?nancial contributions are becoming in Israeli fund-raising activities. But it doesn’t just stop with Eckstein. He is taking advantage of a grassroots movement in the Evangelical/Pentecostal world that is being demonstrated in many ways. The Israeli newspaper, Ha’aretz, reported that television evangelists raised over $20 million dollars to help Jewish immigration to Israel in 1997. Ann Lolordo of the Baltimore Sun found that ?nancial help for Jewish settlements could be found in the Christian Zionist community, and ironically not found from western Jewish ones. She detailed a number of Christian Churches and organizations funding endeavors such as the $5,000 dollars raised by Judy Campbell and the New Life Church in Colorado, or Ted Beckett, a Colorado developer, who started the Adopt-a-settlement program and contributed over $50,000 dollars over a two-year period. The Fellowship Church of Castleberry, Florida, donated over $100,000 dollars for a dormitory and conference center at a West-Bank settlement called Kiryat-Arba.
The First Assembly Church of God in Melbourne, Florida has donated the same amount to Jewish settlements on the occupied West Bank. Vicki Hearst, daughter of the late wealthy businessman, Randolph Hearst, has given an undisclosed signi?cant amount of money for facilities on the West Bank Jewish settlement of Ariel. Pastor John Hagee’s Cornerstone Christian Church in Texas donated over 1.5 million dollars to the United Jewish Communities for “Israel-related causes”. And in 2006 it is alleged he raised over 7 million for Jewish groups. He also founded on February 7, 2006, Christians United For Israel an Evangelical equivalent of AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) to lobby the American congress to support Israel. In that same year, Hagee was the recipient of the Humanitarian of the Year Award by B’nai B’rith. The amount of money from many of these groups may seem insigni?cant, but there are Churches and organizations all over the world doing the same thing, cumulatively adding to Israel’s economy. There are so many pro-Israel Christian groups that if one does a Google search, it will bring up over 250 organizations. It is dif?cult to assess the yearly economic contributions to Israel, but four of the larger well known ones, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, International Christian Embassy of Jerusalem, Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, and Chosen People Ministries, collectively receive donations over $33 million US every year.16 This Christian zeal enters directly into modern-day Israeli politics. I was at the International Christian Embassy Feast of Tabernacles celebration held in Jerusalem in 1986, where the then Prime Minister Yitzhaq Shamir was given a standing ovation by a thousand or more Christians as a sign of prophetic allegiance. This was not a one-time occurrence. The latest annual rite occurred in 2007 and consisted of an estimated 7,000 Christian pilgrims from 90 nations. Benyamin Netanyahu, a former Israeli UN representative and Prime Minister, frequently spoke in Churches. He still is a cherished idol in the Evangelical community, as re?ected by this blogger on Netanyahu when he announced participation in a previous Likud leadership race, “I believe that Benjamin Netanyahu is the chosen man of God to help lead Israel through this very dif?cult time.” The Knesset has formed the Christian Allies Caucus because of the decades of warm political, economic and social relationships between the Evangelical Christian Community and Israel”
Sorry I know its long. BTW the same Benjamin Netanyahu that the Christians support so vigorously, is the one who was backing the even more stern anti-missionary laws in 1997 and again in 1999.
And yes, i know we should discuss this, but I cannot do so without getting worked into a lather. And the earlier comments are why, we as a church support no other government in the world with as much fervor, and certainly no other government who beats, abuses, attacks and treats like dogs our brothers and sisters. We do so to the shame of the Lord, and by spitting on the blood of the Martyrs who have fallen because of this Anti-Christian crusade against those who are under Israeli control. Yes, they kiss your westen Christian butt as you get off the plane, and kiss your hand. Just as they beat the butts of your brothers and sisters, who according to some, because they have Palestinian in front of Christian dont even have a right to exist.
I’ll shy away from the Israel deal, gets people’s blood up. I’ll go with fil and just pray.
Eric,
I love you, brother.
Eric…this is said with complete humility and sincerity.
Have you been to Israel?
I’m sure you have many sources for your assertions about Israel and their government.
But I have been there and so has Steve Hopkins (multiple times) and I didn’t find it to be as you described.
In fact I remember sharing the gospel with some locals without any fear of arrest or persecution.
I attended CC Jerusalem where there is a growing body of believers who are reaching Russian immigrants and preaching the gospel unabashedly.
There are many Christian churches in Israel including two CC churches (Jerusalem, and Tel-Aviv). I know several people who have done internships or are serving at CC Jerusalem and to my knowledge these churches exist without any persecution.
Clearly this is not the same as Red China, North Korea, or many Muslim countries where churches can only exist underground.
I am not advocating or criticizing support for Israel monetarily but I have never heard or seen the violence or persecution against Christians in Israel as you purport.
TonyP
Thats just the problem, when Christians are shown what is actually happening, instead of reacting, they retreat until the bad stuff goes away and they can pretend it isnt there. Wish I could just do that, but I can’t.
I know this is a very pro-Israel group. And I have tried in the past to hold my ire down, though it has flared on occassion. I cannot do that anymore, and I reallt dont think this is a just bury our head in the sand issue. Brothers and sisters are being abused, thier homes siezed to make settlements that Christians have paid for and actively support.
Again, for effect, if you have given money to these organizations, or your church has, YOU have actively paid to have Christians evicted from thier homes.
Ryan,
With all due respect have you ever been to the west bank or Gaza? Or do you doubt the Roman Catholic Church having to send a Priest into the occupied territories because Israel refused them the right to worship at the church of the Nativity.
Until you have been to the Palestinian settlements, you really have no more information than I do.
Thats like saying, LA is a beautiful city, I visited Burbank, and the hollywood hills and didnt see a gang violence problem.
I have talked with David DiSabatini quite extensively and I certainly think he is a Christian. But his work should be judged on its own merit, not on whether or not one agrees with his theology.
I have seen the film, at least in one of its earlier versions, and I offered input, suggestions and criticisms where I felt appropriate. I am always sad to hear my brothers and sisters criticize something they haven’t seen. And a trailer and a title don’t give you enough information to judge a film. Proverbs 18:13 says, “He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame to him.”
I probably shouldn’t say anything more about the film at this point, as I signed a non-disclosure agreement, but I’m fairly certain I knew Larry better than most, and loved him deeply until the end, and yet I saw beauty and profundity in this film. The film isn’t perfect, the filmmaker isn’t perfect, its subject wasn’t perfect, but there is beauty and power there if you look for it. If you are used to Christian propaganda rather than art it might make you uncomfortable. But in a world (even a Christian world) that is so full of lies and pretending, I am refreshed by truth… even ugly truth. The truth sets you free.
Alright, this thread and the Resolved thread, taken together, is why many Christians are double-minded and therefore, unstable in their praxis.
On the other thread, a passage from Romans is being quoted to show that God does everything for us, including sanctification. Nothing is from us; all is from God. So why are we critical of ANYONE? If they aren’t properly sanctified, what did we expect them to do about it, if it’s all of God? Is is Larry’s fault that God didn’t properly sanctify him? And the video’s maker- if it is all of God, then how can we fault him if God didn’t do much with him? (As far as we know. I don’t know anything about either of these men, other than what I read here on PP.)
How, following this reasoning, can be be critical of any Christian if it’s all of God? Yet every week on this blog, Christian after Christian is held up for scrutiny and criticism- for what, exactly? Not being properly sanctified by God? Maybe they were waiting for Him to do it all for them and it never happened. (I can relate.)
For years I heard conflicting teachings, often in the same sermon. I’d hear “It’s all of God, we can’t do anything and to try to do anything is akin to working one’s way to heaven” and out of the same mouth would come “Read your Bibles if you want to grow as a Christian.” If life became difficult I’d get “Have you been reading your Bible? Are you abiding?” Yet next Sunday would come another “There’s nothing we can do ourselves” sermon. No wonder I was confused.
Dave, since you’re a movie critic now, can you give me any input on Jim Carey’s new movie “Yes Man”? I was thinking about going to see it but have some reservations
Eric,
Please do me the courtesy of backing away from attacking ME. I understand your point, you are allowed it. But everyone that I know who has BEEN to Israel has given me a much different take. How am I burying my head, because I refuse to rant and rail at you or come to your side of the argument? I have been called to avoid arguing, especially with the brethren, and am STRIVING to do so.
Eric,
It is not common for Americans to go to either of those areas…I am not denying violence in Israel and I know that there is much Palestinian blood shed (that is an entirely different issue and one that is very polarizing) but what I’m taking issue with is your assertion about the persecution of Christians in Israel in general.
Those hot spot areas are not safe for anyone to live…whether that is the Muslims or Jews fault is the polarizing issue but that is not what I’m referring to.
The Palestinian Christian is an endangered species.
When the modern state of Israel was established there were about 400,000 of us. Two years ago the number was down to 80,000. Now it’s down to 60,000. At that rate, in a few years there will be none of us left. When this happens non-Christian groups will move into our churches and claim them for ever.
I fear that when/if the last Palestinian Christian leaves extreme groups will move instantly to our churches and schools and have a field day hatching world plots. It would be too late for Bush (or Kerry) to do anything about it !!
Palestinian Christians within Israel fare little better. On the face of it, their number has grown by 20,000 since 1991. But this is misleading, for the census classification ‘”Christian’” includes some 20,000 recent non-Arab migrants from the former Soviet Union.
So why are Palestinian Christians abandoning their homeland?
We have lost hope, that’s why. We are treated as non-people. Few outside the Middle East even know we exist, and those who do, conveniently forget.
I refer, of course, to the American Religious Right. They see the modern Israel as a harbinger of the Second Coming, at which time Christians will go to Paradise, and all others (presumably including Jews) to Hell. To this end they lend military and moral support to Israel.
Even by the double-dealing standards of international diplomacy this is a breathtakingly cynical bargain. It is hard to know who is using whom more:
bullet The Christian Right for offering secular power in the expectation that the Jewish state will be destroyed by a greater spiritual one; or
bullet The Israeli Right for accepting their offer.
What we do know is that both sides are abusing the Palestinians. Apparently we don’t enter into anyone’s calculations.
The views of the Israeli Right are well known: they want us gone.
Less well known are the views of the American Religious Right. Strangely, they find the liberation of Iraqis from a vile dictator just, but do not find it unjust for us to be under military occupation for 38 long years.
Said Senator James Inhofe (R-OK):
“God Appeared to Abraham and said: ‘I am giving you this land,’ the West Bank. This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the word of God is true.’”
Inhofe must have got it wrong. Promises are being made to earthly Jerusalem, that again, God did not make! . For Paul wrote that the Holy Land was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants. These are the Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and Jews, who have been living in the land for thousands of years. The Bible never mentioned that God promised it solely to Jews. Anyone can be a Jew, but not anyone can be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants. James Inhofe and followers are unable to tell the difference between Jew, Israelite, and Israel.
It is very clear, that in Israel, there will be no continuing city!
bullet (Hebrews-13-13-14) Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His Reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek on to come!
bullet His Promise to Abraham! (Hebrews-11-10) For he looked for a City which has foundations (Christ The Foundation) whose builder and maker is God!
bullet (16) Now they desire a better Country, that is, An Heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He HAS prepared for them a City!
Heavenly Jerusalem, of Heavenly Israel!!
House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-TX) was even more forthright:
“I’m content to have Israel grab the entire West Bank…I happen to believe that the Palestinians should leave.”
There is a phrase for this: Ethnic cleansing.
Silencing us, from seeking your support and enlightening you about our suffering, goes counter to what Jesus has mandated us to do. We all know that Muslims and Jews get ceaseless support (political, spiritual and financial) consecutively from Saudi Arabia and America respectively; We, the Palestinian Christians, get nothing from the Australian and other Western “Christian” governments. (The Pope has been an exception.)
Prior to the 1967 war, the Christian youth at the Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist and other churches in Bethlehem used to pray and rejoice and have a good chat with hundreds of American Christian pilgrims. In particular Texas and California were two places from where many came from to visit us in the Holy Land. Today only fading memories prevail. Christian families have vacated Bethlehem. The remaining Christians are paying the price by experiencing curfews which last for weeks. They remain sandwiched between Muslims and Jews without drawing the slightest concern from the many so-called Western Christians.
So why do American Christians stand by while their leaders advocate the expulsion of fellow Christians? Could it be that they do not know that the Holy Land has been a home to Christians since, well … since Christ?
Do not think I am asking for special treatment for Christians. Ethnic cleansing is evil whoever does it and to whomever it is done. Palestinian Christians — Anglican, Maronite Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Armenians, Baptists, Copts and Assyrians — have been rubbing shoulders with each other and with other religions: - Muslims, Jews, Druze and (most recently) Baha’is - for centuries. And we want to do so for centuries more. But we can’t if we are driven out by despair.
We are equally frightened by those who commit suicide bombings. None of us Christians have condoned it or even contemplated the idea. Our commitment to Jesus’ teachings will never shake our resolve in this matter.
American journalist Anders Strindberg makes a clearer conclusion. He says Palestinians are equated with Islamists, Islamists with terrorists. Presumably because all organized Christian activity among Palestinians is non-political and non-violent, the community hardly ever hits the Western headlines; . Suicide bombers sell more copy than people who congregate for Bible study.
What we seek is support: material, moral, political and spiritual. As Palestinians we grieve for what we have lost, and few people (the Ashkenazi Jews are one) have lost more than us (the Ashkenazi Jews are one). But grief can be assuaged by the fellowship of friends.
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About the author:
Prof. Abe W. Ata was a temporary delegate to the UN in 1970 and has lived and worked in the Middle East, America and Australia. Dr Ata is a Senior Fellow at the Institute for the Advancement of Research, and lectures in Psychology at the Australian Catholic University. Dr Ata is a 9th generation Christian Palestinian academic born in Bethlehem.
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As the Palestinian Christians are decreasing in high numbers many wonder what the value of a pilgrimage is today to the sacred land where our Lord was born. Christina might be unknown to many but for some, who have grown up with Christina since 1992, they have seen her first go to Church and become knowledgeable about the symbolism of the Orthodox Church in terms of why we light candles and why we kiss the priest’s hand in the very popular, “Christina Goes to Church.” Young children have seen Christina grow closer to God as she practices her numbers in “My Orthodox Counting Book,” and learns the alphabet in “You Are Special,” reflecting how wonderful the Christian identity truly is in our multicultural world today.
Finally by elementary age, Christina, the ideal Orthodox Christian character illustrated originally by a beloved friend, Antonia Marshall, finally learns why some people become priests in “Christina Learns the Sacraments.” Since it is natural to grow closer and closer to God, this “ideal” little Christian child learns more about people who have deeply devoted their lives to God in “Christina’s Favorite Saints” and “Christina’s True Heroes.”
One such saint mentioned who has contributed tremendously to preserving our Christian presence in the Holy Land is Saint Helen who found the Life Giving Cross in Jerusalem. Without the great works of St. Constantine and Helen, we would not have the most precious Christian sites that one can visit in the world today. Even Present George Bush admitted this fact in his recent visit to Palestine.
Christina being so curious, adventurous and pious must visit these holy sites with her family, timeless of any violence and catastrophe taking place in the Land of Christ’s holy resurrection. This magnificent trip to the Holy Land is exactly what Christina and her family accomplish in the story during the pilgrimage of a life time in “Christina Goes to the Holy Land.” They actually walk in the footsteps of our Lord and Savior, step by step and see where He was born, baptized, and said “no” to Satin on the Mount of Temptation.
The new book in the Christina Series is a simplified coloring book of the holy sites based on the original Christina Goes to the Holy Land entitled “Coloring with Christina”. The coloring book will make a great gift for children less than six years of age or for any child who will enjoy walking the footsteps of Christ by coloring.
Coloring with Christina also includes simple text for children to explain the importance of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Christ and Jerusalem as the place of Christ’s Holy Resurrection. Furthermore, it’s spiritually enriched with quotes from the holy gospels making it wonderful for bedtime reading or Sunday school classes that have time for supplemental and enriched learning.
The Holy Land can no longer survive without pilgrims coming to venerate the precious and holy sites of our Lord and Savior. Since September 2000, the Second Uprising, the violence and bloodshed has kept pilgrims away but truly what the Holy Land needs in order for more jobs to be available in the Christian community is for the pilgrims to return and continue to venerate and walk in the footsteps of our Lord and Savior. If the visit of the President of the United States accomplishes nothing in creating a just peace for all people at least it should encourage others to make the pilgrimage of a life-time.
Christina visits the one and only all-Christian village left in Palestine, “Taybeh” where the church is making efforts to build homes and help with university tuitions, realistically referring to the Taybeh Orthodox Housing Project and the Taybeh Education Fund, http://www.saintgeorgetaybeh.org. Now Christina has a new mission to go back to her school, church and American community and let them know of this great need.
Knowing the generosity of Christians abroad and American people at large, for sure the Taybeh community will be saved for another few thousands years to come in order to maintain its true unique Christian identity. The village of Taybeh, has the innocent character of being Christian since the time of Christ in the Biblical land of Judea now on the highest mountain region of the West Bank producing by the way the highest quality olive oil and finest beer in the Middle East. Taybeh is the Biblical town of Ephraim where Christ came for a retreat right before His crucifixion mentioned in John 11:54.
If you have never thought about such a pilgrimage, think about it today. A visit to the Holy Land is the ultimate way to show support and solidarity for the small struggling Christian community in Palestine. But please ask for a Christian tour guide and stay on the East side of Jerusalem where most of the faithful work in the hotel industry. We urge you to show financial, social, emotional, spiritual and genuine support for the Christian community in the Holy Land. Please come and pray with us at Saint George Greek Orthodox Church of Taybeh, after all, the fictional character “Christiana” has done so.
Note: Coloring with Christina is available from Holy Cross Bookstore, Religious Education Department of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and St. Nektarios Press.
——————————————————————–
JERUSALEM: Orthodox Jews set fire to hundreds of copies of the New Testament in the latest act of violence against Christian missionaries in the Holy Land.
Or Yehuda Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon said missionaries recently entered a neighborhood in the predominantly religious town of 34,000 in central Israel, distributing hundreds of New Testaments and missionary material.
After receiving complaints, Aharon said, he got into a loudspeaker car last Thursday and drove through the neighborhood, urging people to turn over the material to Jewish religious students who went door to door to collect it.
The books were dumped into a pile and set afire in a lot near a synagogue, he said.
The Israeli Maariv daily reported Tuesday that hundreds of Jewish religious school students took part in the book-burning. But Aharon told The Associated Press that only a few students were present, and that he was not there when the books were torched. Not all of the New Testaments that were collected were burned, but hundreds were, he said.
He said he regretted the burning of the books, but called it a “commandment” to burn materials that urge Jews to convert.
“I certainly don’t denounce the burning of the booklets,” he said. “I denounce those who distributed the booklets.”
Jews worship from the Old Testament, including the Five Books of Moses and the writings of the ancient prophets. Christians revere the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, which contains the ministry of Jesus.
Calev Myers, an attorney who represents Messianic Jews, or Jews who accept Jesus as their savior, demanded in an interview with Army Radio that all those involved be put on trial. He estimated there were 10,000 Messianic Jews, who are also known as Jews for Jesus, in Israel.
Police had no immediate comment.
Israeli authorities and Orthodox Jews frown on missionary activity aimed at Jews, though in most cases it is not illegal. Still, the concept of a Jew burning books is abhorrent to many in Israel because of the association with Nazis torching piles of Jewish books during the Holocaust of World War II.
Earlier this year, the teenage son of a prominent Christian missionary was seriously wounded when a package bomb delivered to the family’s West Bank home went off in his hands.
Last year, arsonists burst into a Jerusalem church used by Messianic Jews and set the building on fire, raising suspicions that Jewish extremists were behind the attack. No one claimed responsibility, but the same church was burned down 25 years ago by ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists.
All of this by people who live there and call upon the name of the LORD. Again, people who live every day in Isreal and the contested territories. I have plenty more, so what you saw and what they live are completely different. And the American Pastor was detained last year 2008 for violating the anti-missionary laws. But I wonder just how much money CC gives to Israel, and just how big of a blind eye that can purchase.
scotty,
on the advice of a trusted brother, I’m avoiding YesMan due to its crude/inappropriate content…the stuff that doesn’t make the previews. but I’ll defer to Siskle and Dave-bert on this one…
Got it, shouldn’t have come back I know.
Still praying for eyes to be opened.
Eric,
that was almost as long as Jonathan Edward’s “Resolutions.”
Christians aren’t doing so good in Iraq, either:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/24/iraq.christians/index.html
Hi All,
I know the pastor of Calvary Chapel Tel Aviv. There has been persecution, but it is not from the government, it is from the ultra orthodox jews. Some of them refer to themselves as anti-missionaries.
Well im sure at least the brotheren here will condemn the things going on in Iraq, after all it is a Muslim country.
Eric,
You’re still loved, whether I agree with you or not.
thanks, Eric… I have to leave it to the consciences of the individual Christian. But one thing I do know is that the Israeli government was unhappy about this one: “The Israeli newspaper, Ha’aretz, reported that television evangelists raised over $20 million dollars to help Jewish immigration to Israel in 1997.” Many of these folk are indigents that the government can’t/won’t support and, I understand now, some of these want to go back where they came from. Your plea for us Christians to wake up and smell the coffee is valid. If you’re giving to support a secular work in Israel, you are not scoring points in heaven anymore than giving to the Red Cross. IMO
I’ve never been to Israel, but one of my beautiful daughters participated in a prayer walk around the top of the wall in Jerusalem. They did so with permission from the government who knew exactly what her group was praying for. Being secularists, the government had no confidence in the efficacy of prayer, but they did risk repercussions from both Jews and Muslims in allowing this to happen. I think that they know who their friends are and are being as pragmatic as they can. That’s all…
One must be honest enough to realize that they’ve got one heck of a problem. Job one is not getting over-run and thrown out or worse themselves. Those bad guys don’t hesitate to hide behind the skirts of good people. The Palestinian Christians don’t/can’t exactly stand out from the crowd of bad guys over there. Quite a dilemna, isn’t it?
Some say, that the Jews left/ran voluntarily in the first century. dunno - I think we’re seeing a stunning fulfillment of prophesy. There is tremendous drama, tragedy and romance in the regathering. Either way it is a stunning drama. IMNSHO
Randall Price has some good teachings (CD/DVD) on the subject of Christian support of Israel.
“Or Yehuda Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon said missionaries recently entered a neighborhood in the predominantly religious town of 34,000 in central Israel, distributing hundreds of New Testaments and missionary material.
After receiving complaints, Aharon said, he got into a loudspeaker car last Thursday and drove through the neighborhood, urging people to turn over the material to Jewish religious students who went door to door to collect it.
The books were dumped into a pile and set afire in a lot near a synagogue, he said.”
Cap’n, the mayor isnt the government?
eric,
frustration often gets expressed more clearly than the truth. It’s like the studies on non-verbal communication being 90% of what is perceived, irrespective of the words used. Most here are not dismissing your concerns out of hand, but are trying to balance them with their observations and input. All of us have much to learn in this instance, but please try to speak in a tone that educates, not that resembles fingernails on the blackboard. The value of your words is being lost in the tone that surrounds them.
Anyway, im walking away. So have at er. Explain away the misdealings based on your short visits to Israel, and thier allowing you into the Disneyland areas of the Holy Land.
I will keep praying for those who *aren’t* suffering at the hands of this wonderful godly country. I will make sure to tell them that apperently, thier homes werent taken, thier children killed and beaten, and they arent blind or maimed because of Isreals *non* ethnic cleansing.
http://www.youtube,com/Watch?v=MXMYvdWED-o
Correction
http://www.youtube.com/Watch?v=MXMYUdWED-o
…shouldn’t a movie ‘trailer’ come after a movie?
Scott,
I haven’t seen Yes Man but I don’t like the title or the trailer, or Jim Carrey’s theology so a big thumb’s down from me.
fil,
What do you want to call it? A preceder? Doesn’t flow, man……..
Or precursor?
Or foreshadowing?
Eric, can I assume that your perspective is colored by a disbelief in the regathering being prophesy fulfillment? Otherwise, you’re coming down too hard on your fellow Christians …
The real question I have is why does Larry Norman even merit a documentary?
Here’s how my New Years has started.
An 18 year old daughter came of a very good friend of my wife and I came to visit us on the 31st because she was depressed after breaking up with her boyfriend. She informed my wife last night she was pregnant.
Her father, a confessing Christian, left the family for another woman a number of years ago and her mother has worked her tail off to raise three children on her own.
So what does she do now? Pray for this 18 year old young woman and the life she holds.
And I have no time to see a movie about Norman.
I just came back from Israel a few weeks ago and there is certainly propaganda flowing from both sides. But the idea that the Israeli government is torturing the Palestinian Christians is ridiculous. I have friends who live in the West Bank, and it is the Muslim Palestinians who are giving a hard time to the Christian Palestinians. There is certainly enough blame to go around for all sides when it comes to the Middle East, and blind loyalty is uncalled for. I certainly wouldn’t give the church’s money to the nation Israel, or to the United States for that matter. But a lot of these horror stories are like the ones told about the US because of things like Randy Weaver.
TonyP,
a teaser…a temptation…a preview…a hint…a snapshot…a glimpse…
We already have a term for what comes after the movie…the credits.
ah…I know. An ADVERTISEMENT!
Dave, what’s wrong with Jim Carey’s theology? I thought he was a Universalist?
Eric,
Yes, the mayor is the government. I was only sharing what I was told by someone who has been entrenched for several years now.
Scott,
Sort of, but he believes everyone is going to hell. I can’t support that.
fil,
An advertisement? Too old-school. It’s a commercial now.
Personally I like “tidbits”, y’know like the little tasty parts before you get to the real deal and get sick cuz you had too much?
He believes everyone is going to hell? Darn! No wonder he he was such a big star in Dumb & Dumber!
Drew, Praying for your 18 year old friend. May the Lord draw her close to His heart and show her how very true and real Romans 8:28 is!
Pretty scary that the ODM site can discuss with us here….
How strong IS it????? Has it formed true AI??
Concerned- David S. has been part of this blog for a pretty long time. He hasn’t been around much lately, and he usually gets “in trouble” when he’s here anyway
People know him pretty well so that’s probably why your judeements on whether he’s a christian or not aren’t going over very well.
That and it’s not kosher to put somone else’s email up on a public blog. Generates spam…
Just so you know….
judgements
typing w/o contacts
p.s. “kosher” is in no way a comment on anything jewish. i just was trying not to write the word “cool”
no you don’t want to use the word “cool” that is not kosher I found that out the hard way
whoever it was that gave me a hard time for using the word cool I’m just kidding and I don’t even remember who you are.
You could try “un-awesome”.
Or non-neat.
Concerned,
I have met with DavidD and he is a solid follower of Jesus!
You need to post a huge retraction for judging him is such a soulless manner. Your opinion as to how his orthodoxy compares to yours is fine but to call him an enemy of the gospel is absolutely uncalled for and completely without grace.
You are totally out of line.
Hi everyone.
44 minutes on the treadmill today. I’m a wuss compared to MLD
BrianD,
44 mins longer than I did (or will do, to heavy for my treadmill ain’t that a hoot?
). You go, boy!!
Tony, go find a mean dog and kick him or toss a rock at him.
Let him chase you around the block, or even to the other end of town. The farther the better.
Repeat daily, for a month (make sure you’re on a healthy diet, too).
You’ll be light enough for that treadmill before you know it
There is a great deal of history between the Christian west / east as well, and Israel Especially Jerusalem. Keeping the pilgrim roads open was one of the major reasons for the crusades, that and a response to aggression. I think what many of us dont understand was the huge economic impact Relics held to the early and medieval church. Some historians go as far as to say the routes used to go see relics or find relics. I think the need to keep the physical historic parts of the faith runs deep in all faiths. Holy places tie people to time, give them something to hold onto so to speak.
A huge part is economic as well, economics always defines policy as it is one of the most important if not the most important factor. It maybe should not be that way but it is, always has been and most assuredly always will be.
BrianD,
My wife got a bike and one of those things that cart your kids around (which is attached to MY bike BTW)for Christmas, so now we can go bike riding as a group. We start our new diets on Monday. Keep us in your prayers.
Good for you, Tony!
Nomans,
Thanks!
Hey G!
Best of luck to you, Tony!
Hey all, please pray for me. It is a very hard day. I guess the reality of divorce is setting in and it hurts alot.
Thanks
cycling back to Eric … haven’t forgotten the need to pray for his family, finances and health … above all else
Patrick, I’m sorry that you’re hurting today. I’ll be praying.
Psalmy, Good reminder.
Patrick, praying for you. With God all things are possible.
Patrick and Eric,
You and your situations are both in my prayers.
Nonnie,
That is true, but I don’t think restoration is going to happen.
Fox came out with an interesting article about Hamas from the son of one of it’s leaders. May bring some light to those who struggle with Israel
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475226,00.html
Yeah, cause you know Fox news does nothing but tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
Actually Hoppy that’s a prtty good article. I just love to make fun of you…couldn’t help myself.
“prtty”!!!! can you explain that word for me please? ha ha ha ha
and :-0 because you say I type like a dork!!!
If the shoe fits….
Im going to get some mileage out of that one
These days there is so much manipulation and trickery going on. Whose report is trustworthy? … I do remember long, long years ago seeing a report on this unbelievable sect observing some sort of strange ritual where all the males, including toddlers (don’t remember any old guys) took to the streets in a mass milling around (or so it seemed) beating themselves on the head until they drew blood (their own). So here was this large crowd of, what seemed to be happy, gross people with blood streaming down all over themselves. If someone had asked me where the middle east was I probably would have guessed the center of China … I was glad that these people and their part of the world, wherever it was, had nothing to do with me and mine … it was good to be ignorant
praying for you Patrick
“…it was good to be ignorant”
Don’t know that we can afford such luxury now
Patrick re:
Nonnie,
That is true, but I don’t think restoration is going to happen.
I am sorry if it seemed I was trying to give false hope or flippantly throwing a scripture verse at you. What I want to do is gently come alongside you in your hurt and sadness and remind you that our God is great and to seek Him first. May He be your strength and comfort as you continue to serve Him and pray for His will. I will be praying for you and your wife this weekend.
I never said you type like a dork.
I said you are a dork.
Nonnie,
Do not feel as if you were flippant, I understand your motive and am thankful.
There is just a strange sense when then is no hope yet all the hope in the creation. I am in this place.
London
I know you are but what am I
I am rubber and you are glue; every thing you say bounces off of me and sticks to you
besides DORK stands for
Diligent
Organized
Righteous and
Kind
That’s me to a “T” so I guess I am a dork!
I know your reprobate brain is short circuiting itself for a response but don’t try. It’s so small and feeble you might do irreparable damage to yourself
Patrick,
Joining Nonnie in prayer for you.
May Gods grace strengthen you in the inner man,
May He fill you with hope and peace and joy in the midst of this trial where there seems to be none.
Praying for God to sustain you, fill you with courage,
a longing after Him,
for great wisdom and grace for this day and the days to come.
Sorry Hop-a-long, I was opening Christmas presents. Got a pink POGO printer! woo hooo
Gotta read your post (pretty good for an old guy btw) and then come up with a response.
Give me a minute… LOL
Thanks Sis!
You and your hubby mean alot to me.
Uggggggggh! OMG! You’re right! I’m so out of practice with this game that I can not come up with a suitable response in a timely manner.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-17452526.jpg?size=572&uid={AA919975-2342-4986-9A7A-6726982EC976}
DanG!!! You’ve jinxed me! Now I can’t even post a link correctly….arrrrrrrghhh!
http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-17452526.jpg?size=572&uid={AA919975-2342-4986-9A7A-6726982EC976}
OH BLAST!!!!
That site has those images blocked! It’s a bl**dy conspiracy! I just know it.
http://wine.appellationamerica.com/images/appellations/features/wve-white-flag-260.jpg
London
Settle down…just admit you’ve lost this one, like so many of the others or else you’ll blow a gasket in your brain and I’ll feel badly about you being in the hospital attended by nurses named Helga with fat ankles and thick fingers
just breathe in and breathe out…in-out…that’s better
Eric,
PP is big enough for you to “let ‘er rip” every now and again (but I don’t run this place).
Isn’t Jerusalem referred to as “Sodom and Egypt” in Revelation 11:8?
Sola- did you not see my 4:00.
The thing is, you’ve been “gone” for so long that I was lulled into thinking you were always just going to come on here and be pastorish (boring) so I wasn’t excepting you to come out of your corner so quickly and so strongly.
This is the first…and last…time I’ll ever admit you actually managed to score a point.
waitaminute…..This is still Filly using Steve’s computer!!
Now THAT would make sense that you actually scored a point. Fil is funny…you…ummm not so much.
Yea, I saw the 1600 post (for you that’s when the big hand is on the 12 and the little hand is on the 4 and it’s afternoon)but because of your last comment “This is the first…and last…time I’ll ever admit you actually managed to score a point.” A white flag isn’t going to cut it. I need you to “tap out”
Besides; I’d like revel in the moment just a while longer
OMG what a stretch…I can’t even believe you went there…well, maybe I can
And don’t call me Sola! I’ve come out of the closet…I no longer want to hide the real me…I am not ashamed that I am Steve Hopkins
You should revel in it! It’s the only time it’ll ever happen. and only because you caught me by surprise.
http://www.ratemyeverything.net/image/9456/0/Surprise_Attacks.ashx
I’ll NEVER tap out….EVER….
I just want to know whose underwear that was on that stick at 4:00.
Hmmm, maybe I don’t want to know…..
God made me this way and I don’t care if the whole world knows “I’ve gotta be me…”
Come on…Tap out…just do it…you feel the arm around your neck and you are about to go to sleep…it’s the only move you have left
Of course I’m going to call you that. Get a grip.
But…I do concede it was a stretch….but it was all I had at the moment. People do odd things when they are grasping for straws ya know.
That one I’ll take back.
Im trying to help you here
Was it underwear??? See….I kinda thought that…but then, I thought NYAH! It’s just a white flag.
Thanks alot AB for helping THE OTHER SIDE!!!!
Not “Grasping at Straws”…”Gasping for air…the sleeper hold
AB
They weren’t mine…not big enough
Steve….don’t do it…you know dang well I will NEVER, EVER, EVER tap out. You’re going to have to live with the fact that you forced me to choose to pass out. It’s goin’ be all your fault when I do.
Man, I am ON today!!!
ondone
You really need to tap out before it gets really ugly for you…gotta go back to work
London,
Our internet filter banned your last link. I couldn’t see it.
It must have a been desperate move….
Never, ever, ever, ever….If you’re going to do it, you better just do it cause if I’ve passed out from you being a bully, I still can’t tap out and therefore I WIN!!!!!
(i grew up with brothers remember…)
It did? It was supposed to be a shark coming up out of a kiddie pool. Had the word “SURPRISE” on it…
Sorry if it was anything else!
So Low!
NO!!!!!!! NEVER!!
I’m not sure passing out is a winning technique.
See now you are delirious…can’t think straight…making bad decisions it’s not a pretty picture…but it’s your picture
Steve, you can never win.
If you make me pass out. You loose
If you don’t make me pass out. You loose
Gee, didn’t Chris ever teach you anything?
If this was America’s Funniest Home Videos perhaps passing something else, or a kick to the groin…
AB- who’s side are you on anyway?!?
I gotta catch up on this discussion… well I have no interest in the Larry Norman bits but I am always up for discussion about ISRAEL.
So here are some thoughts…
1. Michael makes a GREAT point in asking his question… I will go further… to support the policies that have led to the systematic displacement of some Christians and the persecution of others is virtually a denial of the Christian faith and a participation in the spirit of antichrist..
2. Further, the co-opting of the evangelical and charismatic communities by the piecemeal exegesis of already fulfilled biblical passages is vulgar at best. The absence of serious thought on these matters boggles the mind. We must figure out how to properly support Jews(who have suffered enough)without allocating to them the benefits of the covenants in a nilly willy fashion.
3. In general American political policies have led to the decimation and elimination of Christian communities in Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria and otherwise. What Eric points out about Palestine is repeated everywhere American interference has gone…
We have completely deafened our ears to our Christian brothers and sisters by sacrificing them on the altar of cheap oil, and zionistic politics.
Wake Up America Dread
That reminds me of a song….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0EJm_AQ_VQ
I can’t believe your timing Dread.
You would post that right after “A Trauma To The Groin” on You Tube…..
ROTFLOL
Ha!! You can have AB on your side!
I’ll take Dread….now you’ll both loose!
Ooops,
Make that right before……
JTK,
Thanks bro but no it is more than just blowing a gasket. And I cant relate in words what I feel very well anymore aperantely. Used to love the back and forth and all. Dont see much sense in it anymore, its all just blowhards defending thier stance as right. Not saying anyone here is a blowhard, just thats what all these religious diatribes have become to me.
You may very well be right, and I may very well be just being duped about it all and Israel may very well be the innocent victim in the whole mess. But after what I have seen and heard from these brothers and sisters, my heart bleeds and when I read people time and again posting how innocent Israel is in all of this mess in the middle east, and then I see people who have lived and worshipped Christ since the time he walked the earth suddenly removed from thier homes… I cant play the debate game any longer.
I apologize for my diatribes, they brought nothing to the table and offered no peace to the souls thousands of miles away. And they just made me realize how silly the whole game is, and what the stakes truly are.
Anyway, im sorry to any I have offended. It truly wasnt my intention to harm anyone, I am just a little too invested too debate back and forth.
Blessings all, and thank you for the prayers. We are getting by and God makes a way each and every day to make it to tomorrow. He is faithful and just even when we are not
I just want to point out once again I had NOTHING to do with the pictures or videos that AB posts!!!!
I am in no way implicated in any of his hijinx! I’m just an innocent bystander.
Thanks,
the mgt
Ok second thought….
After watching the trailer I might find the Norman piece interesting. But I agree with Rolph…let the truth be told… no matter what.
Ok Steve Hopkins….
I’m tapping out. This time and this time ONLY. But only cause I gotta go off for dinner and it’s hard to eat with a broken throat.
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/ejc/sodegurumajime.jpg
Yes!! Awesome!
Dread
You and I like Okra but on the issue of Israel we will venture into diffeernt directions. With that disclaimer, how can you say prophecy is fulfilled?
I see prophecy as being fulfilled all the way to the New Heaven and the New earth. Like a glass of water, prophecy is filling until it is “fulfilled”
For instance, Jesus in Luke 4 quoted Isaiah 61:1-2 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
Luk 4:20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
He didn’t quote the rest of the passage “…and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn” or “to grant to those who mourn in Zion– to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified” because they were events yet to be fulfilled.
So I see prophecy as a picture that began to be filled in and painted beginning in Genesis 3:15 and will only be completed when there is a ndw heaven and a new earth
Steve,
The conversation about that could go on and on…. I know. But I am sure that you would not say that Is 61:1-2 is yet to be fulfilled. Jesus is what that was. I do not think you are looking for another anointed one to come besides Jesus and fulfill that.
I am simply asserting that many times people claim that the Jews on the Mediterranean today are there as a fulfillment of scriptures that I would argue were already fulfilled… To illustrate; I would argue all day long that Jer. 31 points to Jesus and his new covenant people not to present day Jews and the land they occupy. Further Eze. 37 is oft pointed to as well… and that WAS also already fulfilled.. If it involves national Israel, we are constantly told that repeated fulfillments are possible … I say not so.
But for sure there are some curious claims in scripture for fulfilled scripture concerning Jesus….
Out of Egypt Dread
It is interesting. When things happen in the Middle East, my Evangelical friends send out alarmist emails about how this is fulfillment of prophecy, etc. how we must support Israel, etc. Meanwhile, my Orthodox friends send out pleas for donations for humanitarian relief for the Palestinian Christians. It’s like these groups are practicing two different religions, I swear.
Babs
My point is only a portion of Isaiah 61 was fulfilled. That’s why he read just the first two vv saying this has been fulfilled in your hearing. the last part of vs 2 was yet to be fulfilled by the same Jesus at a later time. Prophecy was not limited to an event but life a picture continues to be colored in by events and time until it is truly “full and filled”
I’ve got to go bust just wanted to share my opinion from my studies on the matter
The older I get the more I believe the lesson behind all the exposes is to never do anything noteworthy enough to be noticed lest you end up in the next one.
Amen to that one.. how true. The moment you get popular the spears start flying
There was a hit Song about David, and that is when spears started flying in his direction
1Sa 18:7 And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.
Steve,
I am sure you know that it is not a stretch to say that the vengeance of our God was taken against rebellious Israel in 70 AD when old Israel was destroyed for not keeping covenant…
Spear Chucker Dread
Wooo Hoo Friday night church night!
Is That Right Sarah?????
Xenia- it’s funny how much our thinking lines up these days.
L,
Dewd looked all over for your email but I cant find it. if you get a chance can you mail me at opendoororting@gmail.com and get the facebook darnit.
I don’t wanna do Facebook cause I don’t wanna put my real info. out there.
I’ll shoot you an email right now….
LOL, ya no one ever lies in thier online profiles. Coo…. im ghost
Earache - UGM…
London, I have noticed that too.
The older I get the more I believe the lesson behind all the exposes is to never do anything noteworthy enough to be noticed lest you end up in the next one.
DiSabatino is telling another story. Wonder who will be next? Wonder is someone will do an expose on him?
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God…. we’re all so screwed up……… everyone of us has enough sh*t in our stall to amuse those who just can’t help wanting to konw the dirt.
zionist cent
“The moment you get popular the spears start flying ”
I have been told pretty much from day one of my Christian life I swim very near the shallow end of the spiritual pool. But I actually cut alot more slack for people in the lime light, unless what they do hurts people with disabilities, a tender nerve for me. Take Rick Warren for instance, I cant stand purpose driven anything, his news interviews etc, but the guy makes a dent, a big dent. So the rest is just fluff, as I know people who have the perfect gospel spew but they make you want to have nothing to do with Jesus. You see that alot on blogs. It does not mean I accept what they may do, no more then the evil vile stuff I have done.
For example I think there is a difference between what Mr. Haggard did, and what the author of the Shack did. In bloggdom in appeared the evil TH did was get caught and right before the election, the evil of the shack was far worse. I dont get that. The scales seem a bit off, God said a lot about scales. One of the reasons, no the only reason I steer clear of getting back into “official” ministry is I might fall into the same sin of needing or leaning on the group, which means I would have to leave in shame again.
I think that is why I am just so disappointed in the last year, I tried very hard to get back into church and ministry but that terror is still there. The fear I might make a mistake.
I know that is why I operate way under the radar.
Centorian,
Happy New Year. I couldn’t agree more.
Hope you and your family enjoyed your Christmas and this new year brings you much joy, health and many good things.
Whew, glad I missed that match between London and Steve!
thanks solus … Happy New Year to you too. Dell sent me a new hard drive for Christmas since the old one died.
Centorian,
Glad to hear it!
Santa brought me a new iphone. I just wanted to make a few calls, but this things has so many gadgets on it… it’s amazing! I love Santa!!
It appears the Mr. Bentley is making a come back. The decision to go private is a good move from a marketing stand point. There is less oversight, though you loose the tax benefit you dont have to put up with as many pesky questions.
http://tinyurl.com/tbcomeback
Again this is just some blog reports. I knew he will be back and I believe his next business venture could be much more profitable. Sad about all the collateral damage, though completely irrelevant, it is still unfortunate.
I find this whole discussion about Israeli policies and attitudes towards Christians fascinating. I always have been suspicious but this is galvanizing my opinion about Israel making dupes out of evangelicals to use their money, and industries for a one-way type of relationship. The warm nostalgia of listening to Skip Heitzig talk about his time in the kibutz (however you spell it) is losing it’s luster with each post.
Brian.
Isn’t Bentley following the same roadmap what Jimmy Swaggart is doing now?
‘Apostle’ Bentley will no doubt rise again….
The story of his fall and rise again will be the subject of a book and a famous series of sermons that will chronicle his amazing restoration by god(little g intended) He will have a visions to report and angelic assistance to vindicate his return… He is a marketer extraordinaire.
He is more indestructible than a cartoon superhero… let us pray he spares us the spandex.
The gullible masses will scarf up his inflated price wares, they will pay his fees for conferences and enhance the coffers with add on love offerings… As for the whole business aspect … nah… he will just form his own non-profit.
Hold on folks it is going to be interesting…
The Curious Case of Benjamin Bentley Dread
hey! maybe DiSabatino can do an expose on Bentley next!
I cannot bear the thought of Mr. Bentley’s return to the lime light.
I don’t understand the point of such a documentary as this one. I’m not soft on sin for a minute. Why expose someone’s sin, especially afer they’re gone? We are all called to walk in holiness, period. Some do, some don’t.
We don’t know who among us is a Judas Iscariot. We don’t know who is amazingly clever in their disguise, but known only to God a traitor to His truth.
We all have the capacity to sin and cover it up. To think a documentary would be made about our lives after we’re gone, to expose our sin, it doesn’t seem right, or Godly. I pray to never disappoint another believer, or stumble them in any way. I pray to always hold a standard of holiness before everyone I meet. But if I fail to do so, I pray God’s forgivness and man’s forgivness would be poured out on my life.
It takes a mature believer to not spill the beans to everyone on the ’scoop’ he has on another believer. Come on…There but for the grace of God…Meekness, self control, rather than exposing…One of Noah’s sons felt justified in exposing Noah after a sin…It wasn’t a Godly move…We all have to be careful…our hearts can be deceptive…
Just my thoughts…I haven’t posted in a very long time, so I’m making up for time a little…Love to everyone too…I missed you all…
Apple!
I have missed you.
I have been praying…
First let me preface this by saying I understand this is pretty much emotionalistic tripe and is rather pathetic. So with that I think why people gravitated to Bentley was the need for community, they should not need it, but it seems to be what draws them to such events. The other thing is that the young especially are having their world view challenged, extremely effectively by “the world”. Personally the evidence is very credible and the predictability of the models are often supported by direct observations, for example the formation of extra solar planetary systems. We now possess direct visual evidence, and in the very near future very clear visual evidence of earth size planets.
Imho the rebuttal seems non existent or laughable though it is not. Does that make sense? I think it starts with dialog, this takes time, which makes it untenable.
hey what happened to my question to Dread?
PT they are both working the business, creating an effective down line and revenue stream.
Nothing in the spam filter, L
Hmmmm…wonder if I posted it on some other thread?
I saw it posted so I know I typed it. I need to stop multi-tasking….
DON’T say it Hopkins!!!
Crud…have no idea.
DREAD…can an “apostleship” be revoked?
Seriously, can it?
L
the gifts and callings of God are without repentance… but those of man are completely revocable ….
One would say yes for example Judas being replaced by Matthias some would say Paul could also be the replacement to the gentiles. If you are a self proclaimed apostle then no.
Judas “quit” that’s not the same as having it revoked.
BD- has that ever happened?
Could those guys who “appointed” him or whatever that was called…could they say “wait…we take it back”? and has that ever happened? or is that never going to happen because then they would have to admit they didn’t hear from God (if in fact they didn’t which of course, I am inclined to believe)
I think God isn’t in “show” business in that way.
you don’t have to answer if you don’t wanna…just curious…
“DON’T say it Hopkins!!!”
O.K., I’ll say it.
Uh…wait…you know where I live…uh…never mind…
Thinking on this, did the role of apostle end with the closing of the first century ? Closing of the Canon? Does the role of apostle continue today? What is an apostle, though the Beginning of acts seems to point that out, which is why I posted my response. Of course I am still trying to figure did the apostles actually write the NT Gospels, epistles, etc. This figures into the NP of Paul as put forward by folks like NT Wright.
1. no
2. no
3. yes
4. depends on who you ask
5. someone did
Babs
My friend you said, “I am sure you know that it is not a stretch to say that the vengeance of our God was taken against rebellious Israel in 70 AD when old Israel was destroyed for not keeping covenant”
It IS a stretch for me because the destruction of the temple in 70 was not specifically stated as a judgment upon Israel and therefore, we can only surmise it was a for not keeping the covenant.
If my facts are correct, the destruction of the temple was a result of the Jewish wars which began in 66 and Israel was not rebelling against God it was Rome (although the rebellion you mentioned may have been for rejecting Jesus as Messiah). They were in fact trying to preserve their nation.
So again, it is a stretch for me.
Thanks Steve… but I think the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was at the prophetic word of Christ…
Mk13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “ ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
I can go on… but you get the point. God used the Romans the same way he used the Assyrians and the Babylonians before them…
Except this was different as it was the rejection of Christ….
Luke 19:41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
Our disagreement on this is well stated… but thanks for the banter…God bless you
Thanks for the attention folks - this story needs to be heard. Much love to my buddy Jim
Guy