What did you teach?
What did you learn?
Did you hear the Gospel?
We have a special word this weekend!
Sarah has been investigating the subject of the Sabbath and I love what she has discovered.
Take the time to think through this and let's discuss it.
I want to challenge us to something today, and it is something familiar and possibly rejected for various reasons by the majority of us.
Sabbath keeping.
I would suggest that many of us have given no thought to keeping the Sabbath, others have rejected it as part of the rituals of old, and others simply cannot fathom a way to incorporate Sabbath in their lives. I would hope, and love to hear, that some of us are keeping Sabbath intentionally, creatively and worshipfully.
I know that I have missed something enormous. I have missed an opportunity to teach my children about the rhythm of life that God ordained, blessed and commanded. I have missed the rest that could empower the work that He has called me to. I have missed the delight and joy of walking in what He has not only commanded, but has ordained as holy. So, will you consider with me if Sabbath is worth our time? I have seven reasons I think it is…
First: Quite simply, because it is a command. This is not just one of the ten commandments; the command and the implications are repeated throughout Scripture. See our other thread on the texts to have just a starting place. Within just the framework of the ten commandments, however, the Sabbath command is the only one that is stated differently between Exodus and Deuteronomy. In Exodus the emphasis is on imitating God: do this because this is the example of God in Creation. Deuteronomy emphasizes instead that the Jews are no longer slaves and required to work as slaves: observe the Sabbath because God rescued you with His mighty hand. Keep this command to imitate God and to remember that He has brought us out of the slavery of the world. Note also that the Sabbath command is the hinge between the two “tables” of laws, we keep the command because we love God and in it we express our love of neighbor by allowing them to enter Sabbath with us. The servants are to be able to rest as well.
Second: It is acknowledgement for us and testimony for the world that God not only created us, but sustains us. Do we believe God will sustain us if we take our hands off everything for a day? John Piper: “Exodus 20:11 and Deuteronomy 5:15 and Exodus 31:13 teach that the sabbath is a way of remembering and expressing the truth that God is our creator and deliverer and sanctifier. We are dependent on him for all we have in the world, for our deliverance from enemies, and for our holiness. He has indeed designed that we work. But our work neither creates, nor saves, nor sanctifies. For these we depend on the blessing of God. All things are from him and through him and to him. Lest we ever forget this and begin to take our strength and thought and work too seriously, we should keep one day in seven to cease from our labors and focus on God as the source of all blessing.”
Sabbath always means that you have to stop. Marva Dawn www.marvadawn.org has lectured and written extensively on Sabbath Keeping, and she notes four elements that are always true: Ceasing, Resting, Embracing and Feasting. In these she also sees theological connections. Ceasing is our repentance, Resting is to truly learn grace. There is no performance that can earn us this rest, it is totally gift. Embracing is sanctification, as God changes us as we experience Sabbath keeping. Finally Feasting is eschatological. We celebrate now the feast that we will one day enjoy.
Third: The rhythm of working and resting is what we were created for. When we only work and neglect the rest we disregard the rhythm God has blessed and hallowed and we reap the results. Weary physically we open ourselves to emotional and spiritual weariness. We have to be sustained by the rest of Sabbath to be able to engage the toil of the week. Abraham Heschel: “Six days a week we wrestle with the world, wringing profit from the earth; on the Sabbath we especially care for the seed of eternity planted in the soul… The Sabbath is not for the sake of the weekdays; the weekdays are for the sake of Sabbath. It is not an interlude but the climax of living.”
The rhythm that is established empowers and delights and enlivens, it is not meant to burden. Marva Dawn suggests that there is a tension of grace and law. We are commanded to observe, and yet in observing we find enormous blessing. Still, we resist, primarily out of fear: fear that we won’t get everything done, fear of what others will think, fear of financial loss. Fear of coming face-to-face with ourselves. Fear of the legalism of our forebears. We have to discipline our minds to go beyond these fears; we have to walk in obedience and in trust that God will continue to sustain.
Fourth: God blessed and made holy a TIME. Other religions beside Judaism and Christianity, bless and make holy places. God has set apart time. This again is testimony. Heschel: “In the tempestuous ocean of time and toil there are islands of stillness where man may enter a harbor and reclaim his dignity. The island is the seventh day, the Sabbath, a day of detachment from things, instruments and practical affairs as well as of attachment to the spirit.” Paul Stevens, a professor at Regent College who deals specifically with marketplace issues, says the following: “We have to stop viewing time as a resource to be managed…there is never enough of it. Squeeze out of a day as much as you can, and you will end up sacrificing other things like sleep and “filling cup” needs. Robert Banks…. “Our present experience of eternal life should call us to question the desperate business which marks so many Christians. To engage in frantic activity is to become enmeshed in the time patterns of the world, which will one day come to an end and is even passing away.”
Fifth: Because we are created to delight in and rejoice in God. The blessings of the Sabbath are at our fingertips, but we have to discipline our minds to Stop. Rest. Still, Sabbath is not simply leisure. It is not lazy. It is intentional, and it is set apart to rest in God. This is a day of dwelling in our being different. It has been said that it was the Sabbath that kept the Jews, not the Jews who kept the Sabbath. How much more so for us now, in the midst of a world driven to exhaustion and constantly seeking peace and rest in the accumulation of things, can our keeping of Sabbath be a testament of our difference.
In this I think there can be enormous creativity, and I would highly recommend anything of Marva Dawn’s for inspiration. There should be rest. We should sleep on Sabbath!! There should be feasting, and Dawn suggests that the feasting should be in music and creation and art and our senses and yes, in food! She has wonderful suggestions on families involving their children in ideas of how to keep the Sabbath, how to play and rejoice and rest on the Sabbath. This should be a time of delight, not burden. A time to set aside anxiety and rejoice that God has and will continue to sustain us. Just remember that Sabbath always means stopping, and celebrating and resting in God’s presence.
Sixth: Because if we keep Sabbath it will impact every other day of the week. Heschel: “But the Sabbath as experienced by man cannot survive in exile, a lonely stranger among days of profanity. It needs the companionship of all other days. All days of the week must be spiritually consistent with the Day of Days. All our life should be a pilgrimage to the seventh day; the thought and appreciation of what this day may bring to us should be ever present in our minds. For the Sabbath is the counterpoint of living; the melody sustained throughout all agitations and vicissitudes which menace our conscience; our awareness of God’s presence in the world.”
The world will exhaust us. There will always be injustices and battles and poverty and fears and anxieties that need to be dealt with and addressed. But we cannot change the world; we have to be faithful to act where we are called, but the Sabbath reminds us that ultimately it is God who will redeem. It is God who will bring Justice. It is God who will bring rest. And reminding ourselves that the battle lies with Him transforms how we re-engage when come back into the world. The rhythm of weekly Sabbath keeps us firmly placed in the reality of God.
Seventh: Because it can't hurt. What would happen if for the next six months, for the next year, we kept Sabbath weekly? What would happen? There are seasons for all of us. Seasons when we have to work hard, and seasons where we are able to rest more, but Sabbath allows us to be set free in the midst of whatever season. Hear this from Piper:
…there is one other passage that clarifies a common misunderstanding of the sabbath. It is Isaiah 58:13-14. It is a shame that for so many people sabbath keeping is thought of solely in terms of what you can't do. Its original intention was certainly intended to be good news not bad news. The sabbath command is in fact a command to experience joy.
If you turn back your foot from the sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly; then you shall take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride upon the heights of the earth.
God's Purpose for Us on the Sabbath
God's purpose for us on the sabbath is that we experience the highest and most intense joy that can be experienced, namely, that we "take delight in the Lord." And yet what he finds again and again is professing Christians who prefer little human-sized pleasures from things that have no close relation to God at all.
So… will you try?
I know that it is nearly impossible to try to think of a whole day of Sabbath for some of you who are working more than one job, for the bi-vocational pastors, and even for us moms. But will you try? Will you desire this rest? Will you acknowledge this is a command of God? I think that the biggest thing we have to do is be creative. Marva Dawn talks of one friend who is a nurse and sometimes has to work on her Sabbath, she does little things to set it apart: she gets snacks that she only allows herself on the days she is working on Sabbath. And she tries to do the jobs no one else would want to do as a blessing to her co-workers and as a “Sabbath gift”. So, pray that God will inspire you with creativity in how we do this. But do it. And especially for those of us with children, let’s teach them of this rhythm that we are created to walk in.
Please take this a blessing, not burden. Don’t regret not having entered Sabbath rest before. Don’t become anxious trying to figure it out. Seek God, and if by His Holy Spirit you are prompted that this is true, He will make a way. But we have to be intentional.
And with that, I won’t be online today!!! I am starting my Sabbath this week. No computers, no phone calls, no texts. I have to trust that if this is a word that God has placed on my heart He is able to sustain and bring that word to you. Be blessed, blog family!!! Rejoice!!! God is gracious.
A few Scriptures to think about in regard to Sabbath. Some of these will be touched on in the other thread, and I’ll leave the most of the discussion on the Ten Commandments to that thread. I’m not going to go into depth here, but just offer these as some points of reference to think on. There are more that address our resting in God, and feel free to bring those to light:
Exodus 20:8-11, Leviticus 23:3 and Deuteronomy 5:12-15. In all of these verses the basic command of keeping Sabbath is presented. Aside from the comments in the other thread, note that in each it is a “Sabbath to the Lord.” This is not merely a day off, or a vacation. This is a moment in time set aside and made holy by God; it is intentionally stopping and resting in the presence of God.
Exodus 31:12-17 The importance of Sabbath is shown in these verses. It is not just about us and our rest, it is testimony to the world of the character of God.
Psalm 23 Marva Dawn uses this Psalm as a wonderful example of Sabbath-keeping. * God causes us to lie down and rest by waters that are without strife or conflict. * God restores our soul to who we truly are; there is intellectual rest.
He guides us in pathes of righteousness, renewing our mind. We have been trained by the world to think efficiently; on the Sabbath we can think differently. Expand your thinking!!! Be creative!!
In the valley…there is emotional rest. Moves from the third person to the second, not the Lord is, but Lord You are. In times of suffering, I do not fear because You are with me.
Your Rod and Staff comfort me. Sabbath is a day to celebrate in our discipline
Prepare a table in the midst of my enemies. Social rest.
Feasting!!! Our eating has become a strain; we eat in front of the television. Makes us tense and hyper. The table is a place of friendship, fellowship and repose. Nourished in body and spirit. Take time with meals on Sabbath. Eat special things. Again, be creative!!
Psalm 127 Read verse 2 first: “It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest, eating the bread of anxious toil; for he gives to his beloved sleep.” Verse 1 is the foundation: “Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.” Our efforts, our working, in itself will accomplish nothing. It is created and sustained by God, and we can rest in that.
Isaiah 30:15-18 In returning to rest you will be saved, not in relying on the strength of horses and ourselves.
Isaiah 43:1-7 What is my vision of myself? Do I base it on what I do, or on the fact that I am the Beloved of God? Marva Dawn suggests from this passage we can boast in God, that we are to be God’s person in the world and the doing follows. We are to be first. I am God’s child, and because I am set free to be His child, then I am set free to be whatever His gifts have caused me to be. I find who I am as I rest in Him, and that happens in context of Sabbath. Silence and intentional focus on God provide the context in which we come to deeper understanding of
who we are.
Mark 2:27 - 28 The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Rejoice and celebrate and be creative in this rest. It is not something to restrict man and to be a burden. If we do not have both the love of God and love of neighbor we run the risk of requiring of our neighbor something God has not called them to. Our desire in Sabbath is also to merciful to our brothers, including the servants and the sojourners in the benefits of Sabbath rest.
Ephesians 2: 8-10 We need to learn to rest in grace. Stop being driven by productivity and accomplishment. By grace we have been saved, and this not of your own doing.
Excellent, Sarah.
I am convinced! I am shutting everything down, and my Shabbat begins now. Be blessed beautiful blog family
This is a glorious topic. Im so grateful to see it brought forward,
having been convicted in this area and having seen the fruit of Sabbath keeping in our own family.
Looking forward to reading some possible clarification on this:
“The sabbath command is in fact a command to experience joy.
If you turn back your foot from the sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly; then you shall take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride upon the heights of the earth.”
specifically what would entail:
Not going your own way,
Not seeking your own pleasure
or talking idly
Then… ( meaning if we do the aforementioned?)
you shall take you delight in the Lord,
and He will make you ride upon the heights of the earth
Today is the Sunday before the Feast of the Nativity (Christmas). On this day, we commemorate the ancestors of Christ and the readings are the Hall of Faith in Hebrews and the genealogy in Matthew. Fr. Luke’s homily was about the importance of the Incarnation. Unfortunately, I was developing a migraine so that distracted me from fully participating this morning and we went home right after and didn’t hang around for coffee hour. (I’m snuggled up under the covers in bed now, the migraine pill is taking effect, and I’m feeling much better.)
This Wed is Nativity! The six-week fast will end and we are having roast turkey, mashed potatoes, gravy, Christmas pies, cookies and cake and all manner of festal goodies. We’ll attend Liturgy at nine and we are very happy that part of the family is coming to church with us. After Liturgy, we’ll distribute presents to friends (amaryllis bulbs and cookies) and then the family will eat a delicious egg-and-meat based breakfast at our favorite greasy-spoon. (We haven’t had meat or eggs since Nov. 15). After that, we will return home to Seaside and open up the presents (this will be the second time, for some family members) and later on we’ll eat the turkey dinner. Christmas lasts from Wed til Theophany (12 days later- thus, the Twelve Days of Christmas) and we will be eating hearty for the whole time. Then comes Theophany, which I will explain when we get to it.
Christ is born- Glorify Him!
Me too. Sabbath beginning right now on Sunday afternoon.
Amen
No rest for the weary.
Thanks Sarah- that was a great article.
I personally don’t see going back to the Law to seek rest. I am sure that I am missing something.
I remember as a Jewish kid sabbath keeping was a real burden - cooking all the food ahead of time, having the lights set on timers so you didn’t have to switch them on (remember, no lighting fires) covering all of the mirrors in the house (never figure that one out) and everyone overly anticipating the end of sabbath.
Vocation is doing your job as serving your neighbors, which includes your family. I think in a NT way, that that kind of work is resting in Jesus.
The sabbath predates the Law and is a creation ordinance.
Here’s what we do over here at our house.
Saturday evening, I start feeling “churchy.” That is, I start anticipating Sunday morning. Many believers prepare for Sunday by attending Vespers on Saturday night. Since our church is so far away, we don’t attend Vespers at our own parish but once in a while attend Vespers at the local Russian church. Generally speaking, we slow down after dinner. Nothing overt, just a general preparing ourselves for the next morning. No food or drink after midnight is the rule for those who will be receiving Communion. (That means no breakfast and no coffee.)
On Sunday, we make the 45 minute drive to church. The scenery is beautiful- ocean, marina, agricultural fields, rivers, mountains, redwoods. This puts us in a worshipful frame of mine and we are pretty peaceful by the time we arrive.
Liturgy lasts for two hours. Afterwards, there’s coffee hour and maybe after that we are invited to have brunch with friends. These are always very simple meals. If there’s no invitation, we might eat breakfast at a diner, depending on the season.
Back home, I take a long nap. The rest of the day is spent in leisurely pursuits, usually reading, in my case. Dinner is “fend for yourself.” After dinner, It’s back to work because I have to prepare for the upcoming week’s classes and so does my husband.
So basically it’s a very restful, peaceful, enjoyable 24 hours. Nothing burdensome.
Xenia,
“Generally speaking, we slow down after dinner.”
I do that every evening - usually asleep in front of the TV within an hour of dinner.
I don’t know what peaceful Sunday mornings are. Out of the house at 7:30, drive to my son’s house 45 min away to pick up my grandson (on weeks he is at his dad’s) and 20 min back to my daughter’s to pick up her 2 kids. Get them all strapped in and drive 20 min to the church with Bible songs a blasting.
Race each kid to their class while my wife goes to our class to get us a seat. At 9:55 run around to 3 classes picking up the kids (while my wife gets us seats in the sanctuary) and then the fun starts with the kids in church for 70 min.
When service is over, out to the courtyard to get the kids donuts and juice, followed up by cleaning the table and sidewalks of the same donuts and juice. Back to the car, strap them all in and make the return trip to their homes.
The morning always ends as I look at my wife and say “what happened?”
I preached out of John 2:12-22: Jesus clearing the temple.
MLD,
Good for you grandpa … well done! Really … well done!
Sabbath…..rest, slow down, lie down in green pastures…. soul restoration. We all need it.
Life is pressure filled enough, but often, being a Christian/churchian heaps many more “to do’s” upon us; continual frenetic activity, trying to “please” God and “be” the Holy Spirit in everyone’s lives, to study, to evangelize, to achieve, etc.
I do believe God wants us to stop often to praise Him, consider Him, thank Him, enjoy Him. Rest in His Embrace and quit acting like we can improve on what He has done for us.
I like the word Sarah used “the rhythm” of the week. Very good concept. Remember, when God created the world or when the Word was written, the world wasn’t yet locked into Monday through Sunday.
When my four kids were young, I tried the concept of Sabbath. The novelty wore off. Some aspects did stick, like candle light dinners, turning off everything (including power to the whole house at the box).
Just to sit together (dining room), speaking of our day without tv, radio, internet, gadgets and the quest for “stuff” produces a restorative element of peace, that creates an awareness of God in all things of daily life.
Like sleeping each night, a weekly refrain from over-activity would be the healing refreshment that many souls deeply need.
IMHO, this is what The Sabbath is for.
MLD, I think if and when we start bring our granddaughter to church with us, things will become a little more hectic. You are a good grandpa.
Hey all…just catching up. We’ve had kind of a wacky Sabbath here today, although better than most of the last year.
MLD…I’m just curious your take on the other 9 commandments. Honestly, if you don’t feel a draw to the Sabbath I’m not going to convince you by argument that you need it. I think what I have come to, especially through this study, is that we are created to have a rhythm. As Michael alluded to, it is part of the creation…God established and made holy the Sabbath from the very beginning. We disregard it and think of it as optional at our own detriment.
If we don’t keep Sabbath I don’t know that we are in sin. I can’t get past it being a commandment, and so I guess at least for myself I would say we are. But, much more than that I simply think I’ve missed out on a tremendous blessing in disregarding this call.
Sorry…one more thing. You mentioned the legalism you witnessed as a child. When we lived in Lynden, WA we talked with a lot of the older folks in the Christian Reformed church we were a part of and they had similar experiences. Still, as you have argued elsewhere, simply because a truth of Scripture is abused doesn’t mean it isn’t still a truth that should be recognized.
Genuinely, my main hope with the article is simply to get us thinking. And to get us desiring this rhythm of rest and celebration. Making a day set apart and different. It’s a wonderful opportunity as a parent to teach our kids that there is something different about this day, for a reason. And I pray that my kids grow up remembering it to be life giving, and not burdensome.
Christ is our Sabbath rest. The Sabbath is the shadow - Christ is the substance.
Sarah,
Please don’t take my comments as trying to take away anything you feel led to do. Paul spoke to this very issue and if you feel called to do this, then it is something you must do.
“MLD…I’m just curious your take on the other 9 commandments.” To me, the 10 commandments were given to the Jews as a part of a larger set of laws (613) under which they lived in a theocratic system. I think that Jesus gave us a new set of commandments.
I look at it this way, what if I recommended that we go back to the dietary Laws as a way to draw closer to God and to eat healthier? I think what we are saying is that Jesus isn’t enough, let’s go back to something that we can experience first hand.
The above are my thoughts for me and are in no way meant to influence others.
Living as I do in the former home of the Worldwide Church of God (Armstrongism), we have a ton of Sabbattarians in the area. This subject always gets a bit dicey. Technically, every born-again Christian could be termed a “Sabbath keeper” because as Patrick wrote, “Christ is our Sabbath rest.” (As made plain by Hebrews 4) If we’re going to be keeping Sabbath because it’s a command, then we’re (1) missing the point, (2) placing ourselves back under the law (Mt Hagar, re: Galatians).
However, if we’re keeping a weekly Sabbath out of a desire to enjoy the rest of the Lord, then praise God. We aren’t to judge anyone for keeping it or not keeping it.
In different news, we covered all of 2 Timothy 3…I probably bit off a bit more than we could chew for 1 week, but I couldn’t justify taking the 1st 2/3 of the chapter on it’s own. In it, Paul continues to point out sinful teachers & their disastrous results on the culture, he shows Timothy an example of true discipleship in his own suffering - and shows God’s answer for both. We’re equipped to deal with sinful teachers & prepared to endure suffering through the Holy Scriptures.
MLD,
My vision of you has always been exactly as you describe in your above post about God, His Word, your wife and grandchildren.
MLD…I agree with the reference to Paul. Let’s see how this year unfolds…maybe my presence will become so joyful and peaceful that you’ll all be enticed to join me in doing some type of Sabbath
And Tim…yea, it can get dicey. There is so much legalism that can be tied. Maybe using the term commandment is not helpful…but I do see that Sabbath is part of the created order. Is that fair? That there is something in us that needs this rhythm, and again I think we need to be creative in how we implement that. I would challenge you pastors to think on this though, because I really do think we are missing something by driving ourselves so hard all the time. There is something significant to acknowledging that care of God by taking our hands off for a little while. I’m still thinking it through myself.
Thanks all..sincerely. This has been a blessing to have a venue to think and write a bit. Michael has been gracious to let me post a bit, and you all have been extremely kind to me. Even MLD
Sarah -
I think that’s fair…and I agree that we do ourselves harm when we drive ourselves constantly with no break. Most physicians will tell us the same.
As long as time off resting in the Lord remains a blessing & a gift, it’s a wonderful thing. It’s when it becomes either a burden to keep or a means of justification that it’s harmful. I’ve heard dozens of local testimonies of people living like sailors-on-leave throughout the week, but still consider themselves “holy” because they kept the Saturday Sabbath.
Tim….that’s another point that I could go on and on about. The whole quote from Heschel…that if we allow the other days to simply be profane, the Sabbath will do us no good. The other idea, from Stevens, that we should approach time as redeeming time rather than managing time.
I guess the main thing I came to through this is that here is a wonderful opportunity for us to be different. And it is something God ordained and called holy. Here is a chance to live in a way that is not dictated by the world. The balance is to do so with rejoicing, and I wholeheartedly agree with that..watching the danger of it either being a burden or a mark of being “super spiritual.”
Pineapplehead,
Give me some more on the clearing of the temple please….
For all full-time ministers out there,
WHAT DAY do you take a sabbath?
Or
How do you observe some form of sabbath?
We take all day Mondays…
(Maybe we’ll REST tomorrow by having my wife go into LABOR–ha ha)
Using Sunday as the “Christian” Sabbath has a lot of history behind it, but for most it was simply called, “the Lords day.”
This past year I spent hundreds of hours personally studying the Sabbath and the 4th commandment. Why? Because it is the only commandment almost all modern Christians blow off and say, “I am not under the law.”
As Michael said it is not just part of the Law but was established in creation.
MLD has stated what a burden the Sabbath was in his childhood household and he quickly reminded us of the similar burden we have in our preparation for Sunday church.
I think we have to go back and look at Jesus’ very words which indicate He did not abolish the Sabbath by His actions but established He is the Lord of the Sabbath. In simpler words He owns the Sabbath.
Am I a Sabbath keeper? I really think I should be.
Of course being a wild branch which has been grafted into the vine, the Apostles agreed I did not have to be compelled to do so. Lousy excuse, isn’t it!
Drew,
“MLD has stated what a burden the Sabbath was in his childhood household…”
I don’t think that my point was the burden or as Sarah had pointed out the legalism. I just always thought it odd, that you had to do all of this ‘preparation work’ so that you could avoid work.
Here is something to think about - if we are going to turn off our phones, TVs and computers are we also going to stay home and keep the car in the garage. Once we begin looking at what ‘cease’ means I think we will begin to heap guilt on ourselves for the things we fail to ‘cease’
Can you listen to music on your CD’s or is that like having the TV on? This is how the Pharisees had it all screwed up in the end.
MLD -
Exactly. Is it really a Sabbath if we don’t go into the office, but still mow the lawn, rake the leaves, and cram everything else into 1 day on the weekend?
MLD…
For me, and from what I gather from Marva Dawn, cease is to stop being focused on what we “have” to do, stop trying to sustain ourselves and turn to focus on God instead.
And you guys have not responded at all to the concept of creativity in this. You have not responded to the positives….what about the concept that this is a testimony of God sustaining us?
Why do most of us instantly try to point out all the negatives of Sabbath Keeping, rather than looking and saying, “Wow, yeah, here is something God has ordained, Jesus didn’t seem to negate, and might be a really good thing.”? Why do we find excuses not to keep Sabbath?
I understand it may look different for everyone, and I think there is some freedom. The bottom line is taking a day to stop consuming and performing, rest in the knowledge (and trust!) that God truly is the one who sustains us, and rejoice in that.
For me here is what Sabbath will look like this year:
Saturday evenings close to bedtime Steve and I will have communion, and our oldest Zachary will probably have that with us. We will have a time of prayer and worship and we will go to sleep. Sunday mornings we will go to church. Yes we will drive there. We already have had the practice of having all the clothes ready to go the night before so we avoid some of the frantic nature of Sunday morning…we did that before Sabbath keeping.
We will go and worship and we will not see it as a hassle to the best of our ability. We will come home and we may roast hotdogs in the fireplace and eat them on paper plates so we can burn the plates. And we will giggle with the boys when we do that. Or we might have a roast that I prepare the day before and it cooks while we are in church.
I will read sometime during the day…hopefully in the tub with the door locked. We will lay around and rest some. We will probably play games with the kids. And through the day we will talk about God. We will find ways to make that happen.
We may go for a walk. But we will cease thinking about what the world says is important, and we will focus our attention on God. We won’t watch tv….we wont buy anything.
So….that is what we are thinking right now. I am frustrated that you insist on speaking so negatively about Sabbath. It is something ordained by God and called holy. If you don’t want to participate, fine, but stop saying that those of who are will eventually hit some snag and it will become a burden.
Sorry…but you guys just seriously are missing the point.
Sarah -
Your proposed Sabbath day with your family sounds great. Restful, creative, and full of worship.
Here’s the snag that I’m running across (and I certainly don’t mean this to be aggravating - but just to discuss the idea): how do we teach others to do something similar without inherently imposing restrictions upon them?
I believe that one of the reasons that the NT repeatedly talks about the Sabbath in terms of something not to divide over is because the desire to rest on a weekly basis must be something that comes from within; not imposed from without. There is a very fine line between ‘wanting’ to keep the Sabbath & ‘having’ to keep the Sabbath…and history tells us that people have a terrible time distinguishing between the two.
Morning Sarah and friends…. Last night I was remembering Romans 14 and the discussion of day keeping, festivals, food restrictions, etc. It’s a great view on the topic of doing these things “as unto the Lord” as our own worship, and not for the pressuring of others, and I gather that is your intent Sister Sarah.
I am currently in a season of enforced rest. It’s a struggle to actually embrace it as a gift and not give in to the guilt and compulsion of constant “doing”. Since I can’t escape it, I have to accept it and deliberately thank God, praise God and wait for God.
Blessings ya’ll…… James T Kirk, I’m praying for your family.
If you surf the web, there are some interesting, natural and pleasant ways to encourage labor. I won’t give any details here
Tim…you tell me. I have rarely heard a pastor teach on this subject at all, and almost never positively. Honestly, I think the vast majority of people, pastors included, think it is not necessary.
Marva Dawn makes a fantastic case for it, from a positive viewpoint. When we begin to understand the blessing of Sabbath to us, and the testimony it can be, I think people desire to begin practicing Sabbath.
I think it is interesting that, as Drew pointed out, this is the only of the ten commandments we feel the freedom to just completely disregard.
Morning Paigemom….I have been praying for you this weekend. Praying for strength and refreshment for you!!!
Sarah,
I personally do not teach a need to keep a ‘formal’ Sabbath. I do teach that we need to rest, relax, and worship our Savior - but ultimately it is He who is our Sabbath rest.
I understand the argument that the Sabbath is part of the created order, but I also don’t see how the formal celebration of it can be separated from the Mosaic Covenant. Nowhere in the NT is the church commanded to keep the Sabbath, and in the best opportunity the Jewish believers had to pass it to the Gentile believers (in Acts 15), they passed it up.
For me, then to go back and tell people (not your words): “If you *really* want to experience good fellowship with the Lord, then you’ve gotta find some way to take 24 hours off in rest” - there’s no way to escape a legalistic trip.
What I *can* do is exalt God, exhort people to look to Him, be thankful for His salvation & our Savior. If from that, someone decides to spend a 24 hour period in rest, then praise God.
Tim, honestly, and I know this will sound harsh, but I think pastors need to see the blessing and benefit of Sabbath keeping before the congregations will see the relevance. I gave just a glimpse of the material I had. Piper and others have some good resources.
I understand the fear of legalism in this issue. I understand that we have freedom. And in general I wouldn’t push this heard, but in dialog with a pastor….I want to push a little harder. I think you get that, and you get my heart.
I’ll leave it at that. I hope some are encouraged to at least think on this from the things I suggested above. All around me I see people who are discouraged and frustrated and overwhelmed with how much they have to do to survive. To me, in this time, Sabbath is a way of saying that God is still sovereign and we can rest in that. No one has addressed that issue…everyone just gets lost in the argument of legalism.
Sarah -
It’s not that I don’t see a blessing in resting in the Lord. It’s that I don’t see a theological basis or command for a New Testament Christian to keep a formal Sabbath day.
I am sorry that I’ve been aggravating in the discussion…that has not been my intent. Blessings to you & I hope your Sabbath celebrations with your family are truly wonderful.
You’re not aggravating…we’re just hammering it out. Two different view points. We’re good. Do me a favor and read Piper’s article sometime when you have time and let me know what you think…you can email me at FB.
Mark 2 (NIV)
23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
The idea that you present, Sarah, and how you are going to fullfil it is good in my estimation. What we have to be careful of, I agree with Tim, is making any set of ideals “mandatory”.
The Sabbath was made FOR man, so that he would stop and rest. God knows us, He knows we will run till we cannot run anymore, so He gave us the direction to take a day off. We were not made FOR the Sabbath, it is not the reason for our existence, it is for our well being. Knowing that (and agreeing with you that some form of rest is crucial to our life) there cannot be a set guidance for keeping it.
Our problem as people is that we want someone to set it out in stone for us. “Well, if I’m supposed to keep it, HOW am I supposed to keep it?”
You say you are not going to buy anything on that day. What if for someone else they want to buy their food on the way home so they don’t have to cook? Are they voiding their Sabbath observance?
The problem to me doesn’t lie on a mature christian and their exercising of this freedom, it is in how to explain it to a new christian without legalizing it.
Again, I don’t want to diminish the idea you present. A day of rest in the Lord is NEVER a bad idea, but I think we must be careful to make it a mandatory issue.
P.S. I’m thinking of doing something similar with my family, to use Sunday as a day of worchip and family. We don’t do that enough.
It’s been a long time since I posted on your blog. I get Google alerts about Sabbath discussions and this one came up. I thought I would let you know what’s happening with our fellowship of about 150 in Northeast Indiana.
I am blessed that you all are actually discussing and considering the Sabbath commandment. I simply encourage you to ask YHWH to show you the Truth and be willing to lay down preconceived notions. I can tell you, after having observed Sabbath for 4 years now, that it is a blessing, a delight, and pure joy. Sabbath begins at sundown Friday evening. We have a normal supper and spend time together either at home with our immediate family, or we get together with some others in our fellowship and break bread, fellowship, and discuss the goodness and Word of our Creator.
When we wake Saturday morning we spend the day in rest, Bible reading, fellowship, and family time. I’m a member of our worship team and we come together at 3:30 pm on Sabbath and spend time together and then the rest of the body begins showing up around 4:30 pm. We have a common meal, and fellowship beginning at 5pm.
Around 6:15 or a little later we will have either a time of worship or begin Bible discussion. We don’t use a pulpit teaching format, we have an open discussion of the text we’re studying for the week. Our schedule right now in in Genesis, Jeremiah and Romans, going through portions of these books each week. Our children are with us in the sanctuary through the whole meeting. We have our sanctuary set up with tables and chairs and eat and have our discussions all in the same room.
The formal meeting time ends around 8:30 pm and everyone hangs out at together, sometimes as late as 11pm or midnight. It’s a wonderful time of family, food, continued discussion in the Word, and joy.
We do this every week. Each week is a little different. Sometimes we have some worship music first, sometimes last, sometimes both, sometimes not at all, as the Spirit leads. And it is amazing the insight and revelation that is provided as the Spirit moves among many in the discussion. It gives us an opportunity to really dig into portions, ask questions, and not just depend on one man to come with all the “answers,” We’ve been doing this for 2 years, as of this February 7th.
This is a Holy Convocation, as Sabbath is a Feast of YHWH as ordained in Lev 23. It is the communion of the saints, coming together to share from the table of the LORD.
It is an absolute blessing, given to us by our Creator, whom we love, serve, and obey, by grace through faith. By the way, I think the Isaiah 58 text is specifically about Day of Atonement, but the Sabbath principle stated applies to the weekly Sabbath as well as all the Sabbaths as part of the Feast schedule of YHWH.
Read Isaiah 56 for some insight on Gentile inclusion in Sabbath and the covenant.
We certainly don’t have it all figured out, but are trusting, as we simply obey what is written, by grace through faith, that HE will show us. We are grateful to HIM for HIS mercy that covers us, as we are sinners just as John said. But we don’t want to practice sin. We want to practice righteousness, as HE defined it. By HIS grace we are working to accomplish that - HIS work in and through us - Eph. 2 8-10. It is an incredible journey that gets better all the time.
I pray you are blessed as you consider the beautiful Sabbath gift of YHWH.
-Banner
I give y’all. I’m not going to debate it. Hopefully some will be encouraged to think more seriously about the implications.
The last thing I’ll offer is that no one has yet responded to the issue that the Sabbath is a testimony and acknowledgment of God’s sustaining us.
I’ll leave it at that…I’m off for awhile to homeschooling and homemaking.
OK historically the Christian church did hold Sunday as the Christian Sabbath right up till probably 50 years ago. The Puritans held it very high and even as a kid in the 60s there were “blue” laws in most states to keep businesses closed.
My best memories of growing up was EVERYTHING was closed on Sunday. But the money changers couldn’t resist and slowly but surely businesses began to be open 7 days a week. The original meaning behind the 7/11 stores was they were open from 7am till 11pm 7 days a week. Boy have things changed!
But the real problem with Sabbath is, like all laws, people start to make it a measure of others spirituality rather than a personal time given in remembrance to the Lord.
To me the real point of Sabbath is not rest, because the God who created all does not need rest, it is a time to stop and say, “look what God has done!”
Remember He said it was good.
We can rest almost any day of the week but if the heart does not reflect upon God’s creation in our life then it becomes nothing more than ego centered rest, which is not a Sabbath at all.
Tim you ought to teach people to have a Sabbath rest.
TonyP:
The problem with most church attenders today is they “go” to church, they don’t live it.
The faithful people of Israel didn’t do Sabbath they lived it and this is something we can only pass on by example.
If any of you drives 20 or 30 miles to attend “good” church, it is my personal opinion you will never have a Sabbath on that day.
Drew -
I do teach people to rest. I don’t teach people to keep a distinct Sabbath day. I see the difference between the two as pointing people to our Savior, and teaching people to follow the Mosaic Covenant.
TonyP:
The problem with this discussion is two sides will always exist, those want to follow a Sabbath and expect others to feel the same and those who’s hackles come up at the slightest sound of any sort legalism.
I just look at the word, scripture, and ask, “should I be doing these things as a follower of Jesus? It says Son of Man is “the Lord of the Sabbath” and since He is my Lord what would He want me to do!
PS I am a terrible Sabbath (Saturday/one day of the week) keeper.
Tim:
Sounds good. I find many teach that the main purpose of the Sabbath was a God forced physical rest. Yes I have even read all the stuff about how a body needs at least one full day off.
So what does our modern culture do? They take one day off and go and exhaust themselves in some recreation activity. It’s rest from the day to day grind isn’t it?
I contend the point Jesus continued to make by doing stuff on the Sabbath, like healing and having His Disciples pick grain, was to point out to the Pharisees, the keepers of the Oral Traditions, who the Sabbath belongs to.
I don’t think anything changed from creation to the resurrection of Jesus, the Sabbath was created for man to remember what Jesus had and will do for His creation.
How do we remember such rest?
I think that people who look to things like Sabbath keeping (and there are other things) are trying to figure out a better way to ‘touch’ God or be in a closer position to be touched by God. Much of this is lacking in today’s American Evangelical church.
For many, church and Christianity are just a knock off of what the world does. Look around, the pastors dress like the world of today in an effort to look relevant. Last year we teased about the poster A Believer had produced for the prophecy conference and the pastor in his blue jeans, untucked shirt with one hand in his pants pocket. We sing songs that sound like Rock & Roll, even Rap and we make sure that everyone can see the performance on the stadium like Jumbo tron.
Messages are carved out of life’s felt needs and nothing is done to observe life’s seasons. So what do we get ‘after’ church?
But I thought about this while I was on my walk today. In churches that are liturgical and more formal, the things of this world are left behind. I won’t even make a claim here for this discussion that any of it is Biblical, but just a tried and true way to make church church - a time to come out of the world. Pastors dressed in uniforms to provide a sense that something is different. Hymns are sung that match what is happening in that portion of the service and ‘rituals’ used that focus our minds on a reality happening right before us.
As for observation, which I think many are looking for in a Sabbath, we follow a church calendar that requires observances outside of the church building - something to take home with you.
Just as an FYI for those unfamiliar with the church calendar, it crams the 33 yrs of Jesus’ life into a 12 month calendar (that’s how you end up with the annunciation of Mary’s pregnancy happening right before Easter.)
So perhaps a lot that happens when folks are looking at things like Sabbath, happen with us throughout the course of the year. Advent for example is a 4 week period of time preparing yourself spiritually for the Christmas event/season - and Lent is a time of doing similar for Easter.
OK, I ran out of stuff to say to have a smooth ending. But, this was in my email this morning from ChristianBooks.com for those who want to start their Christian year right. Can you find the Christian message here?
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content?page=2137309&p=1143109
MLD - “I think that people who look to things like Sabbath keeping (and there are other things) are trying to figure out a better way to ‘touch’ God or be in a closer position to be touched by God. Much of this is lacking in today’s American Evangelical church.”
I’m curious if you have ever read or listened to anything Marva Dawn has said on Sabbath. She comes from the Lutheran tradition.
MLD -
The CBD link does at least have 1 Bible on there.
Sarah,
No, never heard of her before this discussion.
But here is what Luther said in the Small Catechism -Luther in discussing the 10 commandments usually ended each with a positive.
C. The Third Commandment
You must keep the Sabbath holy.(Exodus 20:8)
Q. What does this mean?
A. We must fear and love God, so that we will not look down on preaching or God’s Word, but consider it holy, listen to it willingly, and learn it.
With Banner Kid having posted I hope this discussion doesn’t digress into a specific day that is kept as the Sabbath.
To me, and I have taught this and continue to reinforce it, a Sabbath or a time of resting is essential to our physical, mental and spiritual well being. The human body was created to work or labor for 6 days and rest one.
IMO the resting is physical and for the purpose of feeding the spirit. Because we were created to live in relationship to the Father, Sabbathing or resting is re-enerrgize the spirit which is the hub of the wheel to the human psyche.
Imagine a wagon wheel with a hub, spokes, and the exterior wheel. The exterior wheel is what touches the earth or the ground, the spokes support the wheel but it’s all connected to the hub. If the Hub is not intact or broken, the wheel fails. Using that illustration, the hub is our spirit. And a sabbath or time of reenergizing the spirit is securing the “hub”.
The problem is we often times replace a sabbath with recreation. We get a week end off and we go skiing, or playing golf, or camping or what ever. Or we mistake sabbathing as watching television, or a movie…none of which are bad and have their place. But a Sabbath is for the purpose of revitalizing the hub of the wheel–the spirit. So we take in the word, we pray, we slow things down, we change the pattern of our life to feed the spirit. In a sense, we shut down our physical life and exercise our spirit in spending time with Christ who said’ I am the branch you are the vine; without me you can do nothing”
That’s my take on Sabbath
Added thoughts about Sabbath…
1. Man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man… Mk2… let me emphasize that; God’s last act in creation was rest but Man’s first day in creation was rest. God labored unto rest…man labors out of rest. God created and then he said to man… ‘come enter into my rest.’ Sabbath was the sign of the covenant of life.
2. Sabbath (rest) was lost in the fall. For the man it meant futility would enter his work and for the woman, suffering enters her labor. These loses were constant reminders of the alienation from God. Loss of rest was a driving force to send mankind back to God.
3. The earliest faith saw the restoration of rest as the sign of God’s final and complete restoration. Remember Gen. 5 and all the geneologies of the line of Cain and that of Seth? Tucked away in that story is the picture of God’s covenant of preservation with Noah, well sort of. The son of Methuselah was Lamech and the son of Lamech was Noah… He got his name from his father’s prophetic declaration over him…that he was the ONE who would give rest from labor. Noah means ‘rest.’ Ironically Noah worked harder than anyone building his ark. But those who entered the ark, were also entering God’s rest from the storm that was coming.
4. Rest comes to be a synonym of faith… you see faith does not labor but it rests… to have faith is to rest in the revelation of God. When we rest we are trusting God not our labors. We rest in God. I Cor. 2:5 gives us a hint on that.
5. Abraham illustrates this point over and again but especially when we read that Abraham was ‘looking for a city with foundations whose BUILDER and maker is God. Abraham wants to live in the city of God’s building not in the land of his conquering.
6. Jesus calls on us to rest in him as our SOLUTION… Matt.11:30 He becomes our Sabbath
7. Hebrews makes entering rest to be synonymous with salvation. Heb 4-5. In essence he makes life in the Holy Spirit to be our Sabbath. It is a kind of a re-entry to Eden. We come to Eden, we eat of the tree of life…we enter His rest. Hebrews 4 tells us five times that entering rest is the nature of our salvation.
However, KEEPING SABBATH is not what it means to experience this … We are told to not let anyone judges us about Sabbaths. Col 2:6 Gentiles are never ordered to keep Sabbath as a means of rightness with God. In fact Sabbath Keeping is the ONLY commandment not repeated in the New Testament.
The article above is in no way commanding us or judging us for not keeping Sabbath…it is simply restoring the glory to the day that has been diminished by a crude and selfish culture.
Grace and Peace
“The last thing I’ll offer is that no one has yet responded to the issue that the Sabbath is a testimony and acknowledgment of God’s sustaining us.”
That’s the whole point of it - The Creator who provided all that we need for life and godliness in Jesus, the Living Word, from the foundation of the world. In six days HE created it all and ceased on the seventh. We honor the seventh because HE is the Creator who created the world and everything in it, including us, for HIMSELF.
Check out Exodus 16, the giving of manna and the Sabbath day - provision. It’s all about trusting HIM, HIS Word, HIS Promises of blessing, they come through obedience to what HE has said. When you
This is not about trying to appease God or trying to curry favor with HIM. It’s simply that, out of love for HIM, we choose to obey HIM. It’s not forced slavery. It’s being a bondservant - a willing slave. It is joy.
“We come to Eden, we eat of the tree of life…we enter His rest. ”
What does Revelation 22 say about eating of the Tree of Life?
And there it is…I knew you (BK) would interject that bit of legalism
7th day sabbath was never a part of the christian tradition. It was a Jewish tradition continued in the NT by Jewish believers but never imposed upon Gentile believers. If it were important the first
Christian council in Acts 15 would have mandated it.
Your choice to observe Torah is your way of expressing worship to God, but you are incorrect to infer that my love for Christ and joy in service is any less than those who keep Torah.
To even suggest it, is spiritual arrogance and makes you a modern day Judaizer
That eating it will heal the nations…
We already debated Rev… I will Sabbath from that debate on this point
blessings
Steve:
“The problem is we often times replace a sabbath with recreation. We get a week end off and we go skiing, or playing golf, or camping or what ever. Or we mistake sabbathing as watching television, or a movie…none of which are bad and have their place. But a Sabbath is for the purpose of revitalizing the hub of the wheel–the spirit. So we take in the word, we pray, we slow things down, we change the pattern of our life to feed the spirit. In a sense, we shut down our physical life and exercise our spirit in spending time with Christ who said’ I am the branch you are the vine; without me you can do nothing””
I think I said this but I also think Steve’s comment needs to be repeated.
WHY? Because we don’t get it! Sabbath rest is, was and always has been about time spent reflecting on God, not us! The problem is things always become legalistic and someone will evaluate someone’s salvation on how the rules are kept. This is the problem with people and is being touched on in today’s new thread.
Never forget where you came from and why His grace has settled on you!
Steve and Drew….on the issue of leisure. I think this is really key. Some people take the idea of “Sabbath” as simply a day to be lazy. Sabbath is to be a day “unto the Lord”….not simply a day to goof of. There should be purpose in our rest…unto the Lord.
I think this is a whole other area that could be discussed. We are so inundated with “leisure”…video games, tv, sports etc. Sometimes a day of rest just sounds silly. But, Steve your points are dead on. This is intentional rest.
Also…in the concept of feasting. We allow ourselves every whim during the week (obviously…speaking very generally), so the concept of feasting can lose it’s meaning as well. But if we are living more simply, something we may all have to be doing in the days ahead, how much more can we rejoice in having something “special” as part of this day.
Just a few more ideas. Thanks for engaging with this!!!
Question: For someone like me, who rarely sleeps more than 5 or 6 hours a night, would it be appropriate to take a nap “unto the Lord” as part of a sabbath rest. I’m not asking this to be silly or annoying; I really want to know what you think.
Kevin…absolutely. I would say yes. What I came to after the studies I have done, and they are not exhaustive and I know others will have a different view, was to be creative. For some working in the garden is a chore…for some it is a time of peace and creativity and restoration. I think sleep is a part of the Sabbath….what more poignant time do we have of recognizing our trust in God but that when we let go of everything and are completely vulnerable. He lays us down to rest. So…as far as I am concerned, yes!!!
Hi All,
I come from a legalistic background. But I am tying to keep the Sabbath. Having come out of a controlling church background I had God speak clearly to me that He is good and therefore all of His words are good and are not to be rejected. Keeping the Sabbath is in the top 10. It is not legalism anymore that not committing adultery would be considered legalism. But, again, you have to read the word for yourself and hear what God is speaking to you. I would never judge anyone for not keeping the Sabbath, and what someone else does on that day might be different than what I do. Sometimes for me joy upon joy - I get to spend the day alone seeking God; other times I spend it with a friend - other days I take a long nap…but that is a day that should be different than the other six. It should be a day that is more than running errands, or serving until exhausted in your church, there should be time in there set apart for God…and really which of us doesn’t enjoy that time? Sometimes, making the time is the challenge..but when was the last time any us said, Gee, I wish I hadn’t wasted that hour seeking the Lord” It is good to spend time with Jesus Christ! Very Good!
Butterfly,
Welcome and thanks so much for posting your thoughts on the sabbath
they really blessed me! So much joy and godly wisdom in your words.
Wow,
It’s been a long time since I visited this board, and I can’t believe how the Judaizers and pseudo-Adventists are in control here!
Please, be a Berean and examine the Word.
Gal 4:21-24 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Where were the ten commandments delivered? Was there a Sabbath commanded by God before Moses? If so, where are the scriptural references that command man to obey a Sabbath?
The Sabbath was for the Jew.When were you a servant in Egypt?
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Gal 4:28-31 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Here is Sabbath keeping according to the Word, none of this “I feel churchy stuff” none of the esoteric kick back and relax and spend time with family stuff. The time is to be spent wholly thinking on God, His words, His ways, and Him alone. No starting the car ( kindling a fire to burn gas) no picking up anything, not even sticks, or you deserve the death penalty, no leaving the house for anything including church, or to run to the store, or to a friends, or to the lake, no letting anyone work on your behalf, paid for or not, no buying or selling, even online.
Not only that, the sabbath of the Bible is not just Saturday, or Sunday, it is all of the Holy Days. Are you keeping them as well?
It is impossible! You will fail! That is the point of the Law! It is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, because even our best righteousness is a dirty tampon. Christ came to give us true liberty, to break the yoke and bondage of the law. If you desire to be under the law, and under its bondage you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5.
The Sabbath is the only one of the 10 commandments not directly reiterated in the New Testament, that is why Christians are not under the law to obey it. Not only that, but Deut.4:12-13 makes it clear that the ten commandments are the old covenant, if you are truly dead in Christ, then you are free from the law of sin and death, and under a new covenant. Under the old covenant they were sprinkled with the blood of animals, under the new covenant, if you celebrate communion with Christ, you are partakers of His Blood shed for you. Read Hebrews 10
Heb 10:16-24 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
The first covenant was written on stone, the new in our hearts.
Heb 8:6-13 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
You want to obey the commandments? Here it is
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
If you start teaching that we need to obey the ten commandments, then you are walking a dangerous line.
2Jn 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I contend that if you think all Christians should obey the Sabbath, you are not preaching the doctrine of Christ, but a false gospel. On the other hand, if you want to observe a Sabbath, go right ahead, do as your convictions urge you, just don’t impose your Sabbath keeping laws on the liberty we have in Christ.
Dear Watcher,
I would never say that all Christians should obey the Sabbath.
And I don’t obey the Sabbath - I obey Christ. Christ is the one that is speaking to me about keeping the Sabbath and that before this post ever came up. I will obey Christ and that is not legalism. For me it is about obedience and love - not legalism. It doesn’t have to be the same for you. This is just what God is speaking to me and maybe there is a reason that He wants me to honor the Sabbath. Maybe that will speak to unsaved people around me about my commitment to Christ, maybe to other Christians I know, maybe God just wants me to have freedom to have more time with Him (something I love), maybe it will build my character as I choose to sit at His feet instead of being a Martha. I just know that for me is is something God wants. And I want God.
Watcher on the wall,
im surprised that you write:
“I contend that if you think all Christians should obey the Sabbath, you are not preaching the doctrine of Christ, but a false gospel. On the other hand, if you want to observe a Sabbath, go right ahead, do as your convictions urge you, just don’t impose your Sabbath keeping laws on the liberty we have in Christ.
If you read through carefully,
It would prove the tone of this thread is of encouraging people to explore the benefits of a day of rest…the rest of the Sabbath
even as Butterfly so graciously shared:
“you have to read the word for yourself and hear what God is speaking to you. I would never judge anyone for not keeping the Sabbath…
…and really which of us doesn’t enjoy that time? Sometimes, making the time is the challenge..but when was the last time any us said, Gee, I wish I hadn’t wasted that hour seeking the Lord” It is good to spend time with Jesus Christ! Very Good!”
Its highly unlikely anyone here would judge someone for not keeping the Sabbath.
Sister Christian,
Thank you for your kind words. I deeply love God and this topic is meaningful to me because it is something I have thought alot about lately. Isn’t God good to want us to rest? It is something some consider legalism but I think it is just the opposite. It communicates to me that it is ok with God for us to just rest, to just be, to sit at His feet. There is a new sabbath rest talked about in Hebrews where we rest from working for our salvation and trust in Christ. I also think there are great benefits to taking time to rest and focus on God. The sabbath to me - is good.
“I dont obey the sabbath -I obey Christ. Christ is the one that is speaking to me about keeping the Sabbath and that before this post ever came up. I will obey Christ and that is not legalism. For me it is about obedience and love - not legalism. It doesn’t have to be the same for you. This is just what God is speaking to me and maybe there is a reason that He wants me to honor the Sabbath…
… maybe God just wants me to have freedom to have more time with Him (something I love), maybe it will build my character as I choose to sit at His feet”
Beautifully said Butterfly… I echo your thoughts here!
watcher on the wall:
why do you attack that which God does not?
Romans 14 is pretty straight forward in this:
One man considers one day more sacred than another;
another man considers every day alike.
Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
17For the kingdom of God is… of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,… anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
Watcher, you don’t need to mount a defense against a troop of imaginary Seventh Day Adventists because no one here fits that description. The only one here insisting that his way is the right way is… you.
Here is another of Gods perspective on the sabbath from Isaiah 58
13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.
While in that passage, what an interesting potrayal on fasting!
6 “Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the straps of the yoke,
to let the oppressed [2] go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn,
and your healing shall spring up speedily;
your righteousness shall go before you;
the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’
If you take away the yoke from your midst,
the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry
and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
then shall your light rise in the darkness
and your gloom be as the noonday.
11 And the Lord will guide you continually
and satisfy your desire in scorched places
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters do not fail.
12 And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt;
you shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
you shall be called the repairer of the breach,
the restorer of streets to dwell in.
As I said before,
“On the other hand, if you want to observe a Sabbath, go right ahead, do as your convictions urge you, just don’t impose your Sabbath keeping laws on the liberty we have in Christ.”
Sister Christian - thank you for both of your posts above. What an encouragement. Yes! Yes! Yes! …keep yourself from doing as you please..there is nothing wrong with that! And most surely - I would never say that all christians must do as I do - that would be very scary alot of the time! I just know what God was speaking to me. For me I just don’t see a reason to not take a day of rest…I can see lots of reasons to do it. But wow, I have no problem if a brother or sister wants to be out and about, doing, and working on that day…while I am enjoying the Lord and getting rest.
Dear Watcher,
I agree with you about Liberty. It is interesting that you referred to it above as “Sabbath keeping laws.” When I referenced the 10 commandments it was only a small part of what God was showing me. Actually, the conviction for me started from the book Nehemiah. If one has faith that there is no longer a need to keep the Sabbath - that is their choice and I wouldn’t say they are wrong. But, whatever is not of faith is sin. God has spoken to me to keep the Sabbath and if I make it a habit not to - then for me it is sin. That does not mean that it is sin for you or that I would look down on you. It is just a good idea to visit the idea and look at what scripture says about it.
Xenia, I never insisted my way was the only “right” way, 90 % of my post was directly from Gods Word, and His view of the Sabbath. Where do I mention my way as the only correct way? God’s is true, but let every man be found a liar.
Apparently the only one who has it right is Marva Dawn, a contemplative woman pastor ordained by the Lutherans against God’s Word. Marva is all messed up when she preaches that the gospel should be read from the center of the church to prove Christ is in your midst. That proves nothing except that someone knows how to read the Bible, and that they are standing in the center of a church while doing it.
God ordains men as pastors and teachers and elders over the church. It is only in modern history that feminists have convinced churches that they should be allowed to pastor.
Matthew Henry puts it this way
” 5. According to Paul, women must be learners, and are not allowed to be public teachers in the church; for teaching is an office of authority, and the woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence. But, notwithstanding this prohibition, good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the holy scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother? 2Ti_3:15. Aquila and his wife Priscilla expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly; but then they did it privately, for they took him unto them, Act_18:26. 6. Here are two very good reasons given for the man’s authority over the woman, and her subjection to the man, 1Ti_2:13, 1Ti_2:14. Adam was first formed, then Eve; she was created for the man, and not the man for the woman (1Co_11:9); then she was deceived, and brought the man into the transgression. ”
I have to agree, we are free to regard any day or festival, and free to eat nearly any meat we desire, I have no qualms with your observing one day or another of worship. The passage in Romans 14 does not explicitly mention the Sabbath, but speaks of food and festival days, although some include the Sabbath as well.
Our fellowship meets on Thursdays, are we in sin? We don’t meet on Saturday or Sunday, is that sin? Am I saying everyone needs to meet on Thursday only? No, I am not. Am I saying you can’t meet on Saturday, Sunday, or any other day? No.
All I am saying is that there is a trend in the church, in part promoted by the Adventists, the JW’s, and a few christian sects, to return to the law and Sabbath worship in particular. The words confuse some believers, and cause them to think they are somehow in sin for not following the Ten Commandments, even though Christ’s death would not have been necessary if we were able to obey the law.
Here is some of the confusion and legalism I see here,
“I personally don’t see going back to the Law to seek rest. I am sure that I am missing something. ”
“The sabbath predates the Law and is a creation ordinance.” This is an Adventist/ JW/ Millerite position
No food or drink after midnight is the rule( i.e. “law”) for those who will be receiving Communion. (That means no breakfast and no coffee.) (a man made law, found nowhere in the Scripture!)
Sarah said that she thought to not observe the Sabbath was sin and Sarah has stated that she thinks we are in sin if we don’t keep the Sabbath when she said
“God established and made holy the Sabbath from the very beginning.We disregard it and think of it as optional at our own detriment.”
“If we don’t keep Sabbath I don’t know that we are in sin. I can’t get past it being a commandment, and so I guess at least for myself I would say we are.(in sin)”
Drew said
“Because it is the only commandment almost all modern Christians blow off and say, “I am not under the law.”
Christ is our rest, He entered into rest, he finished the work of salvation. If you want to take a day of rest, go right ahead.
“I would suggest that many of us have given no thought to keeping the Sabbath, others have rejected it as part of the rituals of old, and others simply cannot fathom a way to incorporate Sabbath in their lives. I would hope, and love to hear, that some of us are keeping Sabbath intentionally, creatively and worshipfully.
I have missed the rest that could empower the work that He has called me to. I have missed the delight and joy of walking in what He has not only commanded, but has ordained as holy.
She says we need to obey it because
First: Quite simply, because it is a command.
(The law!)
however, the Sabbath command is the only one that is stated differently between Exodus and Deuteronomy.
(Just two of the five books of The Law)
“Lest we ever forget this and begin to take our strength and thought and work too seriously, we should keep one day in seven to cease from our labors and focus on God as the source of all blessing.”
Whose law is this, and where in the New Testament is it found?
Watcher….fair enough. I shouldn’t have said that I thought it was sin….that was wrong. I’ll take that rebuke and accept it.
As Xenia and Sister Christian have pointed out…the tone of this thread has been to try to engage with Sabbath as something that is beneficial to us. Jesus did not tell us not to practice Sabbath, rather he showed that there is freedom in Sabbath and that He is Lord of the Sabbath. Again the references to Romans….we are not told to *not* practice, but are told we have freedom.
I do believe, especially in todays day and time, that Sabbath could be something that brings real spiritual health and healing to many people. We are told by the world that it is time to panic and time to work harder in order to simply get by. We are fearful of our economics, we are engaged in leisure that brings no spiritual health (just hear me out…I’m not saying to never play football etc). What could it mean to take one day and say, “God will sustain me, I trust that I can take a day to rest unto the Lord.” That is really the main thing I wanted to bring out in this.
Again…I’ll receive your rebuke, and I hope no one feels judged by the article. Truly, it was brought with the intention of getting us to think differently about something we may have just brushed off.
Watcher, “All I am saying is that there is a trend in the church, in part promoted by the Adventists, the JW’s, and a few christian sects, to return to the law and Sabbath worship in particular. The words confuse some believers, and cause them to think they are somehow in sin for not following the Ten Commandments, even though Christ’s death would not have been necessary if we were able to obey the law.”
I do not think that Jesus came to abolish the law but to fulifll the law. We are to not throw out the entire law and just ignore it. The law leads us to Christ because through it we see our sin compared to the standard of God’s holiness. The law shows us God’s holiness and His Character. If I were to kill, use God’s name in vain, covet, steal - or to not rest - that would be something I would do that would reflect my own natural character and not God’s character. We are to want to be like Christ. I do not think God would freak out over the fact you meet on Thursdays and I don’t think the day itself is as Holy as the principle. God rested…we should rest. It is part of His character. I drink coffee on my day of rest. I will do work on my planned day of rest if I must work or if it is a chance to win an unbeleiver - and take another day instead. But, as a principle it is good to set aside a day - 24 hours - to rest - to slow down - and focus on God more than myself or my work.
Watcher,”Matthew Henry puts it this way
” 5. ….women must be learners, and are (not allowed) to be public teachers in the church; for (teaching is an office of authority), and the (woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence). But, notwithstanding this prohibition,… Here are (two very good reasons given for the man’s authority over the woman), and her subjection to the man, 1Ti_2:13, 1Ti_2:14. Adam was first formed, then Eve; she was created for the man, and not the man for the woman (1Co_11:9); then she was deceived, and brought the man into the transgression. ”
This description by Henry is lacking. The parts in parenthesis are parts I think could have been communicated better. Words like “not allowed” “office of authority” “usurp authority” “be in silence” do not bless most women and our words should build others up and not tear them down. Sadly, many Christian men and churches have used these verses to control, belittle, and devalue women. Men and churches that don’t allow for any imput from women or that treat them like they need to be controlled and silent. This is not in keeping with the idea of biblical headship. Jesus is submitted to the Father but still has authority. The proverbs 31 woman had decision making authority in the household. Even if woman was not to be a pastor, or elder, there is no reason for women to not be in leadership within the church in functions where it is not teaching men such as leading worship, children’s ministry, acts of kindness ministries, service to the poor, etc. Sadly churches have made women less and less and do not allow them responsibilities where they can use their gifts. They often will say they think women have equal value - as long as they are cooking, cleaning, and doing a man’s laundry…there is more to being a helpmate then what some churches teach and more roles then housework…and much better ways to communicate worth, value, and roles to women.
Watcher, I am not a feminist and yesterday was the first day I have ever heard of Marva Dawn. However, I do believe this: in today’s world, people are exhausted. Their lives lurch from one thing to the next. Long ago, the Lord thought it was a Good Thing to give us a day of rest, for our sakes. I believe this is still a Good Thing. I don’t see any scripture verses that contradict this. I see verses against Judaizing, but not against taking a day to rest.
When people are having an amicable conversation about the joys and benefits of resting once a week and someone, rather grumpily, posts a list of verses that throw cold water on the practice- who’s being the legalist?
The modern church is not being affected by the JW’s and the Adventists, for crying out loud. If anything, this Sabbath-keeping idea comes from Messianic Judaism, which is affected by Dispensationalism. Following the Law slavishly and using pseudo-Hebrew jargon- that’s legalism. Deciding that it’s a Good Thing to take a long nap on Sunday? That’s not legalism- quite the opposite.
I’m way late to this, but compelled to speak.
I asked Sarah to put this together out of a real concern that we weren’t created to live the way we’re living.
Most of us are very tired, very stressed, lacking both peace and joy from living at full speed on the edge of exhaustion.
The objective was to stop and think, to have a discussion…not to make theological declarations or add a commandment.
She found some profound thoughts, some fresh ideas and presented them for our consideration.
Per usual, we couldn’t bear to stop and think, but reacted out of whatever tradition we are from.
I needed this article…I need a license to stop and rest and worship.
The culture revoked that license and we’re paying for it in broken bodies, broken minds, and weary spirits.
I need a Sabbath.
Thank you, Sarah.
Michael,
Enjoy your rest. You have earned it.
Michael -
With respect…if there’s an article posted about the benefit of speaking in tongues & 7 reasons why we should seek the gifts, then you ought to expect some discussion from people wondering whether or not the gifts are valid for today. Why would a discussion on the Sabbath be any different?
For the most part (with only 1-2 exceptions), I think people stayed civil & engaging. Wasn’t that the intent?
TonyP,
What rest?
One of the things that I got out of that article was that sometimes we need to be creative…my schedule simply doesn’t allow for a Sabbath.
To be blunt, my schedule is killing me and I think I’ve got lots of company.
I have to find a way…I truly don’t believe that we are created to run 24/7.
There was rest built in to creation, our creation and we’re trying to override the owners manual.
Tim,
I’ve just got this gut feeling that we’re all pushed to the breaking point and we’ve baptized that culturally.
I really do believe we need to at least consider that we are running off a cliff and God didn’t intend for us to do so.
Sarah made a conscious effort to avoid legalism and just offer something to consider.
For me, it’s almost not an optional consideration anymore.
Weight Watcher
You exposed your intentions when your used the term “contemplative”. My friend, you have created a straw man to promote an argument and unrest on the issue of (ironically) the Sabbath.
No one here is referring to the 7th day when they refer to “Sabbath” but simply a time, period of spiritually refocusing. You have gone off into this fear thing saying there is a move among the church to institute a 7th day Sabbath.
I am a pastor and have never heard of such a thing and even if it is true, which it may, most christian I know would not go for it. We know our freedom and our Christian tradition.
You’ve stated your position now it would be best to back off…you are doing nothing but creating problems that don’t exist on this thread
The seventh day rest goes back to the beginning. I’m still unclear why Adam & Eve (pre-fall) or even God for that Matter, would have needed a day of rest to rejuvenate their bodies?
Scott -
God didn’t need it; He gave it. Genesis tells us that He blessed & sanctified the 7th day because God rested from His work. (Gen 2:3) The only implication is that God stopped His work of Creation because it was complete; not that He was tired in any way.
As for Adam & Eve - I assume that they took a 7th day rest because God set it aside. But now that I think about it, I’m not sure there’s any Biblical reference to them actually resting on the 7th day themselves.
Is anyone aware of any Biblical record that Adam & Eve actually enjoyed the Sabbath? Honest question…
“Is anyone aware of any Biblical record that Adam & Eve actually enjoyed the Sabbath? Honest question…”
I can’t recall ever reading that they did. Nor do I recall God commanded them to do it.
Michael,
Scripture for you today. I hope it will give you some peace.
Psalm 23 (NIV)
A psalm of David.
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.
Isn’t our blogging time our Sabbath rest? Is not this the time that we stop our normal daily activities (if the boss isn’t looking) to reflect on the things of God?
Scott
Jan 6th, 2009 at 9:16 am
The seventh day rest goes back to the beginning. I’m still unclear why Adam & Eve (pre-fall) or even God for that Matter, would have needed a day of rest to rejuvenate their bodies?
I picture God taking time on the 7th day to just enjoy…He looked at all He created and said it is good. He stopped and took time to enjoy His Creation. We get to take time to stop and enjoy the Creator. It is to be a good thing. I enjoy my time on the blog but it is not the same as just sitting at His feet, meditating on His word, sitting by a pond and reflecting.
I do think our world keeps us too busy and even our service can keep us to busy. We need that time with the Creator so that we can be refreshed. I think it at times is better to do less for God and just be with God. I know alot of Christians that are wearing too many hats to even get to enjoy that they are sons and daughters of the living God.
Steve,
Although you may disagree with me, and although you may feel I am presenting issues and concerns not implicit in this subject, I am sorry you feel the need to belittle someone or resort to name calling.
“We seek to lovingly speak grace and truth into our culture with our lips and our lives, our words and our works. (Matthew 28:19–20; Luke 19:10; John 13:34–35)”
“No one here is referring to the 7th day when they refer to “Sabbath” but simply a time, period of spiritually refocusing. You have gone off into this fear thing saying there is a move among the church to institute a 7th day Sabbath.”
If you have read the entire thread, you would see that the 7th day , as well as just a time of quiet or refreshment is being discussed here. I am sorry that you see my comments as fear based, obviously, if there are folks that have made it clear that they see a possibility for the Sabbath to become legalism, then there is a reason to sound a warning.
You call it a straw man to use the word contemplative, but I think it may reveal your bias towards the same to argue it a straw man term.
“You’ve stated your position now it would be best to back off…you are doing nothing but creating problems that don’t exist on this thread”
Back off? That’s a pleasant way to start a fight, pastor. I was under the assumption, perhaps groundless, that the thread was for open discussion of ideas, and I was under the impression that when we see a brother or sister going off in error, we are to correct them, not tell them to get lost and call them names as they leave.
I remember schoolyard bullies doing the same thing.
If you feel I am mistaken, you will win my ears more readily with kindness leading me towards repentance than you will calling me Weight Watcher,( by the way, I am not overweight, are you?)
You were very clever to say I am creating “unrest” on the subject of rest, but this issue goes back as far as the founding of His Church. Perhaps you can remember the book of Acts and it’s discussions on this, as well as most of the letters of Paul to the various churches and pastors.
Tim made a valid point when he said
“With respect…if there’s an article posted about the benefit of speaking in tongues & 7 reasons why we should seek the gifts, then you ought to expect some discussion from people wondering whether or not the gifts are valid for today. Why would a discussion on the Sabbath be any different?”
Is the sabbath, as Sabbath, valid for today. I don’t think anyone can deny that we all need to set aside time daily and weekly to seek the Lord, to spend time with Him, and to listen to His words from His word as the Word ministers to us in our lives. Deciding to make time for that, on any day of the week is a good thing. Certainly, who would expect any relationship to thrive without time spent together? I just do not see a command to observe a Sabbath as described in the Old Testament.
I do not see a command to return to the old covenant. The ten commandments are the covenant. We honor and love God, and we do those things that honor Him because of what He has done for us, not because we “have to”. The things we do for the Lord are a direct response to all he has done for us, a “get to”. Galatians makes that very clear.
We get to spend time with Him, it is a privilege, not merely a law or commandment. If we love Him, we will make time for Him, because we want to. We always make time for the things that are important to us, and if a Sabbath observance is important to you, you will make time for it. Again, though, Jesus is our Sabbath rest. “take my yoke ” he says.
The law was a burden, a yoke of bondage that He freed us from. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and lowly in heart, “and you will find rest to your souls.”"
Cast out the bondwoman, the Word tells us in Galatians.
Act 15:5 But some of those rose up from the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the Law of Moses…And much disputation having occurred, rising up Peter said to them: Men, brothers, you recognize that from ancient days, God chose among us that through my mouth the nations should hear the Word of the gospel, and to believe…Act 15:10 Now, then, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we had strength to bear?..Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to put not one greater burden on you than these necessary things:
Act 15:29 To hold back from idol sacrifices, and blood, and that strangled, and from fornication; from which continually keeping yourselves, you will do well. Be prospered.
That is my prayer and hearts desire for all believers in Christ, that they may be prospered and that they might stay free from the burden of the Law that we have been set free from in Christ. That includes believing that somehow putting oneself under the yoke of bondage to observe an old testament/old covenant Sabbath Day will somehow make one more spiritual.
The life is in the Blood of Christ,(Heb 12:18-24) not in the blood of animal sacrifices, we are sprinkled in His Blood, the blood of the new covenant/ new testament. The sacrifice of Christ is tied inseparably to the covenant, the Sabbath is tied inseparably to the Ten Commandments, which are the old covenant( Exo 34:28, Deu 4:13), which was sealed with the blood of lambs and bulls.(Exo 24:8)
Butterfly, thanks for sharing and participating. And you too Watcher. You shared some good insight. I get a little nervous myself when Folks start talking about keeping “The” Sabbath. That little word “The” can carry some pretty strong connotations.
Watcher
You said “Is the sabbath, as Sabbath, valid for today. I don’t think anyone can deny that we all need to set aside time daily and weekly to seek the Lord, to spend time with Him, and to listen to His words from His word as the Word ministers to us in our lives. Deciding to make time for that, on any day of the week is a good thing. Certainly, who would expect any relationship to thrive without time spent together? I just do not see a command to observe a Sabbath as described in the Old Testament.
Thats the point we all agree upon! I know most of the people here and none of them is arguing we return to a 7th day Sabbath. It appears to me you are assuming we are, hence, the straw man comment.
Again, for clarification, most here are talking about the principle of Sabbath not a Sabbath day…something you obviously agree with.
One person chose to sabbath on the 7th day but also said she was not placing herself above anyone else nor even suggesting it was TE day when we are to rest.
As a pastor, I am protective of people, and I felt your comments where condemning and possibly just misinformed possibly in the use of the term Sabbath.
The matter is open to discussion and I am not the one to open or close down dialogue here but it is my nature to step in and protect the weak from “bullys” as you said (a reference to me–and I am not but that’s OK).
So instead of talking about what we don’t like about each others posts, let me ask you where we agree…maybe that will get us both pointed in the right direction
WotW
“We get to spend time with Him, it is a privilege, not merely a law or commandment. If we love Him, we will make time for Him, because we want to. We always make time for the things that are important to us, and if a Sabbath observance is important to you, you will make time for it. Again, though, Jesus is our Sabbath rest. “take my yoke ” he says.
The law was a burden, a yoke of bondage that He freed us from. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and lowly in heart, “and you will find rest to your souls.””
I whole heatedly agree! No argument from this pastor!
WotW
So where is it we disagree? I am confused
Good points too. Looks like everyone is in agreement! Next!
I think Watcher was concerned about the use of the word “Sabbath-keeping,” which is understandable, I guess. Possibly he was thinking about the extremes of Messianic Jews and Adventists. We don’t have any of those folks here on PP, but maybe Watcher didn’t realize that.
If Watcher is concerned about Messianic craziness, where ordinary Gentile believers take on the trappings of Jews by celebrating OT holidays, wearing prayer shawls, inserting the random Hebrew word into every sentence, calling Jesus Yeshua, etc, etc, etc, well, I agree with him. But he is wrong in his original assumption that the folks of PP are Judaizers and crypto-Adventists. Sheesh!
Seriously, Watcher. All most of us wanna do is take a nap on Sunday.
X
Yeah, you might be correct. That is why I tried to clarify that when the term Sabbath was used it was in reference to a principle not a day of the week.
What also may have thrown him/her is that some one (maybe you) chose to rest on the 7th day. But he/she may have took that to mean you were imposing that on others but that was/is not the case
This was said by one poster, and quoted again by another: “The law was a burden, a yoke of bondage that He freed us from. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and lowly in heart, “and you will find rest to your souls.””
How does this fit with Paul’s statement that the Law is spiritual, holy and good, and a delight? That doesn’t sound like a burden to me.
What is burdensome about taking a day off work?
Why is Sabbath keeping any more burdensome than murder, lying, adultery or honoring father of mother?
With all due respect, none of this is logical, let alone Scriptural.
And as for Sabbath after the garden and before Sinai: Look at the story of the giving of manna and how he gave it six days and not on the 7th so as to test them to see if they would keep HIS commandments or not. This was before Sinai.
Just because we don’t see it mentioned after the garden and up to the manna incident, and we don’t see it reiterated in the New Testament (I think it is) does that mean it is not valid?
As for Acts 15, the council didn’t reiterate commandments against lying or murder, so does that mean they’re OK?
These are legitimate questions that deserve Scriptural answers.
I don’t see any clear Scriptural references to Torah being a burden. I don’t see any reference to being freed from Torah. I do see that we are freed from bondage to sin. And sin is defined by John as lawlessness.
I don’t see any reference to Sabbath being abolished or no longer to be kept. I don’t see any reference to it being changed to Sunday.
Honestly think about it. Why is simply doing what Jesus said end up being thought of as legalism; “If you love ME keep MY commandments.”?
I’m not trying to be offensive, but attempting to get you to consider it from a purely Biblical perspective.
I don’t find keeping Sabbath, according to HIS Word, obeying HIS dietary commandments, and observing HIS feast days, any more of a burden than not committing murder or lying. In fact, the commandments about lying or murder (in our thoughts at least) are much harder!
It is by grace, through faith that I am saved, not of works, but a free gift from HIM. But I am, because of the continued work of grace in my heart, HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, that HE prepared beforehand, that I should walk in them.
Jesus is the Word from the beginning. HE has not changed. Peter said, in 1 Peter 1, that Jesus was the one who spoke through the prophets and they preached repentance to Torah, to the Living Torah - Jesus.
I’m not angry with any of you. I am not burdened. The joy that I experience with my family and my extended church family is awesome. There is not burden there. It is a loving community of people who relate to one another and to or Creator out of love, according to Torah; loving HIM with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself.
Dismiss me as a legalist if you must. But I really don’t think I’m a legalist. I just want to be legal. I don’t want to break God’s Law because I love HIM. HIS grace does the rest in and through me. For it is God who works in me, both to will and to do, for HIS good pleasure.
Peace,
Banner
BK
“Dismiss me as a legalist if you must.” I’ll take you up on your offer. You’ve been here before insinuating that we are not “biblical” because we do not keep Torah. You’ve said if we love God we will keep Torah insinuating that because some don’t we are somehow less Christian.
Keeping a time of rest is biblical and smart but a specific day–the sabbath as you are stating is no where in he Christian tradition other than, as I’ve said before, in the first century church which were mostly Jews.
The same restrictions of Torah were not foisted upon believer the Gentiles which was the purpose of the Acts 15 council. Your argument from silence–they didn’t rule it was wrong to lie or murder so it must be OK goes beyond the scope and context of the passage.
Folk Banner has been here before and he would be a Judaizer like Paul had to deal with in Galatians. I am certain that BK is a nice person, a committed Christian, and sincere in his beliefs. He is concerned with holiness and us walking the talk like we all should be But even so, in his doctrine simple faith in Jesus for salvation is not enough.
Don’t be taken in by his incorrect doctrine as a means to Holy living.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Hallelujah!
Banner, did God command Adam & Eve to observe a 7th day Sabbath?
The problem with all the Sabbath keeping arguments is the Law was never meant for salvation and it was given to the nation of Israel.
This subject of Sabbath keeping as a requirement for those who have been grafted into the vine was discussed by the first church council and they did not require it of us “wild branches.”
Additionally all of the “perpetual” commandments given to the nation of Israel are there to remind them of what God had done or to point them at God and His glory. Even before the Law they (the fathers) built “standing stones” or named the location or person as a remembrance.
So should the wild branches be required to continue these practices given to Israel? Scripture tells us the decision has already been given to us. But if the law is truly on our hearts we will be compelled to seek and give God His due praise and remembrance, Law or no law and Sabbath day or no day.
PS. For most of us Sunday is no way, no how even close to any resemblance of a Sabbath!!
Scott:
“The seventh day rest goes back to the beginning. I’m still unclear why Adam & Eve (pre-fall) or even God for that Matter, would have needed a day of rest to rejuvenate their bodies?”
Because it was not about physical rest. But I stated that before.
“Because it was not about physical rest”
Thank you
BK, Here is how we are free from the law…
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
“How does this fit with Paul’s statement that the Law is spiritual, holy and good, and a delight? That doesn’t sound like a burden to me.
What is burdensome about taking a day off work?
Why is Sabbath keeping any more burdensome than murder, lying, adultery or honoring father of mother?
With all due respect, none of this is logical, let alone Scriptural. ”
Here BK is how it is scriptural, the law is for law breakers and the disobedient, of which I am cleansed through Christ. I have been washed, sanctified, and justified in the Name of Christ, and by the Spirit.
The law had dominion over me as long as I was alive, but in Christ I am dead, buried, and risen to a new life, as portrayed in baptism.
“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Romans 7:2″
We are free from the law
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. ”
We are free from a specific day of worship
“Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. ”
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
BK ,
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
Gal 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Christ has made us free!
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Watcher,
Do you ever sin and if so how do you know you sinned?
Watcher,
We are free from the law when it comes to justification. Our legal standing is assured that we are forgiven because we trust in Christ work on the cross. You are justified if you never keep the Sabbath one day - or if you keep it on Tuesday. Sancification will look different because we are all in different stages of growth and ways we are trying to conform more to the image of Chist. For some of us that will include taking a day to rest, for some it won’t. It is not a big deal if you do or don’t it is between you and God. When it comes to sanctification I don’t want to erase all God’s commands in the Old Testament because I still think they reflect a part of God’s character. Will I try to keep them all - of course not. Will I tell you that you are in sin if you don’t keep all the laws I keep - of course not. There are some laws that cause serious harm and those we must confront - whether or not you keep the Sabbath is not one of those.
Watcher,
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day…..
No one hear judges you if you don’t keep the Sabbath or a New Moon celebraion….likewise, no one else should judge me if I feel like God wants me to keep the Sabbath.
It just really isn’t that huge of a deal.
Butterfly~ You said:
“I would never say that all Christians should obey the Sabbath.
And I don’t obey the Sabbath - I obey Christ. Christ is the one that is speaking to me about keeping the Sabbath and that before this post ever came up. I will obey Christ and that is not legalism. For me it is about obedience and love - not legalism. It doesn’t have to be the same for you. This is just what God is speaking to me and maybe there is a reason that He wants me to honor the Sabbath. Maybe that will speak to unsaved people around me about my commitment to Christ, maybe to other Christians I know, maybe God just wants me to have freedom to have more time with Him (something I love), maybe it will build my character as I choose to sit at His feet instead of being a Martha. I just know that for me is is something God wants. And I want God.”
You said that Christ is the one who spoke to you about keeping and honoring the Sabbath. This is not a trick question, however, did He tell you which day of the week you should do that? In other words, which day of the week do you keep the Sabbath?
I don’t the NT requires any one keep THE Sabbath but man was created to keep A sabbath. He doesn’t even have to do that but if he chooses to it doesn’t improve his standing before God.
It is a principle that the body and the spirit were created to to rest one day in 6 and it is just wise for our mental health and physical health to follow the manufacturers suggestion for the use of this body.
But again just so there is no mistaking, when I use the word “Sabbath” I am not refering to a day that one is obligated to keep but a principle that the human body needs rest
Scott,
I try for Sunday but that is not always possible and if not then I try another day, and some weeks I just can’t. I aim to keep it with grace that sometimes I just won’t be able to.
Do we get a 3 day weekend if we keep The Lunar New Year on the 26th?
Butterfly, alrighty then, thanks.
Because I’ve been without work for mos., am I able to “Store up” my Sabbath credits and use them in the future when I get back to work? You know, work 7 days a week for a few years?
Scott,
Too funny!
Just remember that you can’t take those credits with you when you die - so if you don’t use them you lose them. Which means when you get to heaven you will once again have to rest…sorry!
Ahhh yes! When I get to the other side, I won’t need no Sabbaths! Hey! Did I just use a double negative?
Scott,
What a time that will be!
All this talk though has gotten away from the point of the post which was, “I would hope, and love to hear, that some of us are keeping Sabbath intentionally, creatively and worshipfully; and is keeping it worth our time.
I do beleive as I read God’s word that He wants me to keep a Sabbath. I felt convicted for not making any effort to do so. I intentionally and worshipfully attempt to. I can’t every week, and sometimes I can’t on Sunday. But, I have put off work that needs to be done in order to keep it, I do try, and I love having time to read my bible, to pray, to worship, to rest…finding the time is always a challenge, saying no to those in my life that do not keep the Sabbath and want me to work is a challenge, but I try, and am under grace in my attempts and on days I just can’t. That to me is where my liberty and freedom in Christ comes. I make an effort and want to honor God by setting aside a time for Him, but am not freaked out or under condemnation if I cant.
Butterfly, I’ve never done an exhaustive study on the Sabbath. As far as what the particular customs of the Jews were and how they specifically viewed the Sabbath. Someone may prove me wrong, however, I suspect the Jews really didn’t view the keeping of the Sabbath the way you and others are describing it’s primary purpose. Especially the devotional component and emphasis you are describing.
Scott,
I have not studied it either. I do know the bible talked about Jesus teaching in the synagogue on the Sabbath so I think it included that. I think it was intended to be a day of rest since that is what God did on that day. I think the Jewish people turned it into a legalistic effort rather than a blessing and started creating rules for the day - like how many steps you could walk or what would be considered work hence it was wrong to them for Jesus to heal someone on the sabbath. I go by the God example and not the Jewish example. I think God called it to be a day of rest and a Holy day. As a day Holy to the Lord is where I feel worship comes in. It is not Holy based on my actions but on His holiness and that is why I take time to worship on that day.
Butterfly, fair enough.
God instituted an official legal requirement through Moses while the children of Israel were in the wilderness. It’s noted in Exodus 16. One of the main requirements was that they were to remain in their place on that day. In other words, not go anywhere. The penalty according to God in Exodus 31:15 for them not keeping the Sabbath was death. Why do you think God established that requirement?
Scott,
I don’t think that God meant for them to not go anywhere but to not go out to gather manna that day - they were to gather twice as much the day before. In Ex 16 he still calls it a day of rest. In Lev 23 He declares it a day of sacred assembly.
I am not sure why the penalty is death. I do know that alot of sin in the OT required death for example anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. I think it shows us the seriousness of sin and should be reflected on when we read that the wages of sin is death and that is what we all deserve whether we keep the Sabbath or not. I for one think there is still enough scripture to think that we should observe a Sabbath but I don’t think it needs to be done in legalism but that it is a way to honor God. I do not and could not follow all the commands of the OT or even know them for that matter or follow all the holy days listed in the OT; but I just think there is still something special about the Sabbath. I don’t think there is enough support to tell anyone it is required today but I think there is alot of scripture that supports it being something special that God had between Him and man and I see no reason not to give a day to God.
Since people keep bringing it up here…what do you guys know about Seventh Day Adventists? What are the pros and cons in your opinions.
Not thinking of switching just that alot of the folks at the church i’ve been hanging around are “former” SDA. When people that are still in a group together say “former”, it makes me a bit skeptical that they’re not still carrying the same DNA…
So…any thoughts?
London,
Never been to SDA - I did have a friend that was raised in a SDA church and she described it as legalistic; but, I have no experience with them, been to alot of other churches though…
yeah…me too. Don’t know much about them either. The feedback I get from them is that it’s incredibly legalistic. Had a conversation with pastor dude which makes me wonder about how SDA sees the roles of men and women.
Somethings just not sitting right with me…
Hi London,
We have dear friends who have been SDA for 20 years, in my limited exposure,
what I have found is that some assemblies are more legalistic than others.
My Moms neighbor, a SDA, was a wonderful kind woman, we had many talks about the Lord over the course of several summers. Yet she was a bit adamant at times to press me towards worshiping God on Saturday.
probably not much help to you though.
Saturday day??
I wonder if that’s why we meet on Friday night. I’ve yet to figure that one out….
THEY….why THEY meet on Friday night….eeek
London, I do know that SDA are extremely legalistic when it comes to food & a Saturday Sabbath observance.
Butterfly, actually in Exodus 16 it says, “Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”
Of course as the ceremonial part of the law developed under Moses in Leviticus, there were more Sabbath observances added in some of the feasts as well.
I guess I struggle with how motivated an individual would have been under the Mosaic Law to have the kind of devotional experience you are describing as God’s “original intent” for the Sabbath, when the penalty for not doing it under the Law was death.
Scott -thanks…no issues with food legalism there
Dietary laws are not in effect, but we still have to eat.
The Sabbath as law is not in effect, but we still have to rest. Not as law, but as a principle that will bless us if we honor it.
Obviously, for someone who ministers on Sunday, it ain’t Sunday.
So it is a good idea to rest periodically, not to meet a divine requirement, but to edify yourself (New Testament thinking!).
The concept of rest is interesting and diverse. I like to rest by watching Sports Center and drinking a couple of beers. Ahhh! the joys of Sabbath rest!
Some things I found in looking up scripture ref. to the Sabbath:
“And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done.
And He rested on the seventh day from all the work that He had done.
Then God blessed the seventh Day and sanctified it
Because in it He rested from all the work that he had made.”
Gen 2:2,3
Because He rested from all the work He had Made;
He blessed the seventh day and set it apart as Holy.
Some blessings in connection with Honoring the Sabbath:
And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD
to serve him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to worship him,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.” Isaiah 56:5-7
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.” Isaiah 58:13-14
It was not okay to buy and sell on the Sabbath. Nehemiah 13:16-18
an instance in the NT where the sabbath was observed:
Luke 23:56
“Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.”
It is interesting How Jesus said “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27
It was okay to do good on the Sabbath Matthew 12:12
To heal on the Sabbath Luke 13:16
To teach on the Sabbath
To gather on the Sabbath Acts 13:44
Col 2:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration
or a Sabbath day. (In keeping it or not keeping it?)
17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
To gather on the sabbath, as in assembly, not as in gathering sticks!
As a new believer, here are the verses that a brother shared with me, and the Holy Spirit convicted me with, about it not mattering to us here today in NT times which day we worship on:
Colossians 2:16-17 (NASB95)
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Sister Christian, talk about gathering Numbers 15:32-36
32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.
Some one mentioned earlier regarding the severe penalty of breaking the Sabbath and why that was…
Scott, you highlighted one of those verses @8:52… quite severe.
Some how that brings me to thinking about Achan,
How he took and hid that which God commanded them not to partake of.
It aways struck me as rather severe that the whole household was put to death.
Thats a horrific thing to consider, a whole family being put to death for one mans sin?
Yet at the same time,
does anyone see a correlation of a man who participates in that which God calls us not to do?
Specifically, Adultery, Fornication (which would include PRn)
and especially if he has hidden/buried it from the entire assembly?
It will eventually be brought out into the light,
and the havoc it wreaks upon the entire family is destruction.
Would anyone concur, that the severity of the punishment God gave in the old testament, relays a principle that still may hold to New Testament times, that when a person does such things, it doesnt just affect the person who did the act, but brings forth horrifioc consequences to the whole family?
and perhaps thats why God judged it so harshly then?
Just some thoughts Ive been pondering on…
Not attempting to be dogmatic,
wondering what others think on this too…
We have some friends, a couple, raised SDA.
They’ve moved on — for the most part.
I know one of them often feels lured back to it. He’ll admit that it’s quite legalistic, but the draw is at a really deep level.
My take is that legalism is always a draw for the Christian. Old Adam loves legalism. But when you’re raised in a tight group like the SDA, I think it’s even harder to resist the pull.
The Sabbath is an interesting discussion. But I have a question; why do people so quickly start claiming “judaizer” when anyone even suggests we should keep some of the 10 commandments as followers of Jesus?
Maybe we have a little rebellion in us? “You can’t tell me what to do,” kind of thing?
Submission to God is not a requirement of our culture so I admire those who voluntarily do these things. Maybe all of should read Romans 12:1 a few times!
Thanks Lute!!
That really a lot!
That really helps a lot!
Scott, I think you have to read the whole chapter in Ex to get the context.
JimB
Colossians 2:16-17 (NASB95)
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Which is what I was trying to share with Watcher. This is why I will not judge someone that doesn’t keep the Sabbath - but also why I don’t think Watcher or anyone should freak out if I want to honor God by keeping it. To not judge goes both ways-don’t judge those that don’t and don’t judge those that do.
I understand that the reason Christians celebrate a Sabbath of sorts or go to church on Sundays was because the Lord rose on a Sunday and that was a sign that things had changed for NT Christians. I think SDA people go with the idea that the actual 7th day is Holy. But, really, as Christians shouldn’t every day be considered a day to live in holiness or at least give it our best attempt? I think it is good to just take a day to focus more on God and less on ourselves whatever day of the week that is & I just don’t see where that can ever be a bad thing if it is not done in legalism.
Butterfly,
I think you have a really balanced view about the use of the Sabbath, and I salute you. It’s not easy to strike –
Lutheran…I second that. Thank you for your input here, Butterfly. I think you really understand what the intent of the thread was about.
Drew
Thr only person who attached the term “Juadizer” to BK was me. He has a history here of promoting Torah keeping along with your faith. We’ve had many discussions in recent years on this blog about these issues. He insists that a truly born a gain believer will keep the commandments insinuating that to not is to not be truly born again.
That was an issue in the early church and Galatia and the term used for that person was Judaizer
Drew, I agree with your 11:24 post.
London -
SDA carries some baggage with it. It’s more than just worshipping on Saturday…their history came out of the Millerites who kept setting dates for the Lord’s return. The writings of their founder (Ellen G. White) are generally considered to be on the same level of Scripture - early Adventists took her prophecies as the firm word of the Lord.
That’s not to say every Adventist holds to those beliefs - but that’s definitely their history.
Oh - and of course ex-Adventists probably don’t hold those beliefs at all. But hopefully that was obvious.
I’m still a bit fuzzy this morning. More…coffee…
Tim,
A razor works better when your fuzzy.
Butterfly, I have read all of Exodus 16. What did I miss regarding the Lord commanding the people to remain in their place on the sabbath?
The sabbath that God instituted for the Jews under the Mosaic law with all it’s conditions and consequences looks NOTHING like what Christians and even Orthodox Jews are calling a sabbath today.
I get a little squeamish when someone says, “The Lord told me I need to keep THE sabbath.” That’s all.
I agree that Butterfly has demonstrated a good and healthy balance with regards to her desire to consciously take a day to slow down, rest and to have a contemplative and worshipful mindset toward the Lord. No problem there! Go for it!!!
In fact, Butterfly is at liberty to add a few candles, background instrumental music, icons, beads, prayer books and prayers of Saints of old, head shawl, and a little mood lighting and smoke to accentuate the experience too!
I think MLD smokes on the Sabbath.
What a very odd turn this thread has took.
In a culture where people are very intentional about scheduling around favorite television programs and sporting events, the idea of a time dedicated to rest and refreshment in the Lord is scorned.
Whether the law is binding or nor, the Bible is clear that it’s precepts are good.
We suggested that perhaps one of the reasons for the high anxiety and stress in our lives was the result of not being intentional about rest and reflection upon the goodness of God…not in any legalistic or dogmatic fashion but as a point to consider.
I believe we were created to live in rhythm with creation and part of that built in rhythm includes rest and worship.
A sabbath is part of our DNA in my opinion and denying ourselves that rest makes us prone to break downs of every conceivable sort.
I am choosing to become intentional about it…for my good, not God’s.
Scott,
But I don’t go out and buy them on the Sabbath.
oopps - last one to AB.
Michael,
I recognized (as did most of the others, I’m sure) what the intent was for this post. The only issue I had was the “Sabbath keeping” mention. For those that understand the freedom from the Law we have in Christ, the idea that Sarah presented we understand, but to those that still struggle with keeping/not keeping the Law, it could be read differently.
“We suggested that perhaps one of the reasons for the high anxiety and stress in our lives was the result of not being intentional about rest and reflection upon the goodness of God…not in any legalistic or dogmatic fashion but as a point to consider.”
I wholeheartedly agree that we NEED to stop and be renewed both physically and spiritually. But when the word Sabbath is presented, it brings up the ears of both sides of the legalism fence. And as many pass through here that may not know their freedom in Christ, I for one want to make clarification.
If I have offended you or sarah, I appologize. It was not my intent to blast the idea itself. I know Sarah’s heart and understood her take on it.
London, so as not to take this any further off the topic, the best site I know of for information from a Christian perspective on the Adventists is ExAdventist.com.
TonyP,
Not offended at all, just puzzled.
I’m a Puritan at heart, so modern priorities don’t fit me well.
By the way, there are excellent scholarly arguments for Sabbath keeping.
I’m not necessarily convinced, but the arguments are biblical and compelling.
Michael, you outta be grateful (which I know you are) that you have a job that tires you out so much you need a sabbath break
As for the thread taking a strange turn, I sorta felt the same way on the Cleansing The Temple…Again thread. Talk about a strange turn, LOL!
Scott,
I’m very grateful…but I’m also a pastor, blogger, father, and friend and doing none of the above well or with joy.
I think I’ve found what I need to do…obviously others mileage may vary.
and doing none of the above well or with joy.
I want you to have joy…
Michael,
I pray that God will bless your dedication to resting in Him and give you the path to do so.
Michael, sorry about that! I forgot you had your hands full way before you went back to work! I hope you regain a sense of joy in your spirit in the coming mos. I certainly can relate to how you feel.
Probably didn’t help that the Vikings let you down…again.
Indeed, the founding of the SDA was very sectarian. As I recall, many of Miller’s followers sold all their goods and sat on rooftops waiting for the Lord’s return. Miller had it down to the day and time…
There’s an SDA tv network that shows up on our set. You won’t mistake the people on there for anyone cool, anytime soon.
They also seem to be big on an end-time, Revelation-as-totally-literal mindset. I’ve seen and then quickly tuned out their prophecy programs.
As an interesting aside…the SDA got its start in the “burned over” district of Western New York, in the same area where Joseph Smith and Charles “Chuck” Finney were from. Miller was a big millenialist.
William Miller was a farmer in rural Vermont when he went to a revival and joined the Baptist church in 1818. He spent 14 years studying the Bible, accepted literally all its prophecies, especially those on the Second Coming. He became an advocate of millenialism, the time when Christ would reign on earth for 1000 years of peace. He went on tour after 1832, spoke at revival meetings and predicted the Second Coming was going to be 1843. After a brilliant comet filled the sky Feb. 28 to Apr. 1, 1843, he changed the date to Oct. 22, 1844, but it turned out to be the “Great Disappointment.”
http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/civilwar/01/burned.html
Scott,
“As for the thread taking a strange turn, I sorta felt the same way on the Cleansing The Temple…Again thread. Talk about a strange turn, LOL!”
Scott, you’re just jealous because you weren’t the one who found this gem.
http://www.pinksheepofthefamily.com/2008/01/if-tae-bos-billy-blanks-richard-simmons.html
Scott,
BTW, the other day I decided to look at some very old PP threads. Talk about strange turns and thread insanity!
Reviewing them had me shedding tears of laughter!
PP is a much tamer (and less funny) place now than in days gone by!
I even saw your name in there (ScottH) contributing to the madness!
AB~ That praise exercise video was a trip! That dude had amazing timing on his clap!
“A sabbath is part of our DNA….”
Good word!
Steve:
I did not point the Judaizer directly at you but the general tone I hear from “Christians” when any scriptural position comes up which actually demands we examine our own lives.
Paul said we used to be these people, liars, fornicators, adulterers and on. But in today’s church we can’t even talk about these things without being called “intolerant” or “judgmental.”
Maybe all of us need to look closely at the Law and forget the Judaizer stuff and see how we compare. No not about salvation and faith in Christ, but personal spiritual sacrifice and worship unto the Lord.
I know I fall short every single day.
And I do understand what you say about those who would have us Torah focused. I almost agree with them up to the point where Law keeping becomes our focus. I do believe if we were people of scripture we would be far more satisfied in Him and thus glorifying Him.
Just think if all of us Christians honored the Sabbath of our Lord who it belongs to what rest we might find?
When Butterfly wrote earlier;
“I don’t obey the Sabbath - I obey Christ.”
FB Meyers words came to mind as he wrote in
“Fit for the Masters Use”
perhaps it will be a blessing to some.
People ask me if I believe in progressive or instantaneous sanctification. I reply- first, I do not believe in sanctification, I believe in the Sanctifier. I do not believe in Holiness, I believe in the HOLY ONE, a person, not an attribute, but Christ in my heart.
Instantaneous? Yes, in this way: that in one moment I can take up the true attitude towards Christ; but progressive, because stage after stage He will carry on His work in me, weaning me, saving me from the love and power of sin, deeper, deeper, deeper down in my heart. I take up the position suddenly, yet apply the position all along my life.
is this not true? Today you see things to be wrong, that five years ago you permitted, and five years from today you will see things wrong which you now permit. Evidently the work is progressive. God sheds light upon our life. It is but the twilight at first. In the twilight I can see a chair, a piano, and a table but that is all. But the twilight merges into morning and morning light, I can see smaller things: The ornaments, the pictures that are on the wall. But morning becomes noon, and now I see the dust is gathered that I could not see at twilight.
So, God deals with you and me. He does not turn the heart upside down and empty it of every sin at once. First the twilight, and we put away obvious sin, then morning, and we put away other sins we did not see before, then eleven in the morning and we put away deeper sins that we had missed; until it comes to meridian and in that perfect light we put away more sins, the small dust we had missed. We see deeper, deeper down and every year man is saved more completely from the power of known sin, so it is gradual.
I think it is perfectly absurd for a man to say he is perfectly sanctified. He is not within a thousand miles of it.
Still, up to the limit of our light, God can keep us from known sin. i say that again, up to the limit of our light- twilight, morning, noon- Up to the limit of our light, God is able to keep us from all conscious and known sin.”
Luthern, Thank you!
Scott, I think if you read Ex 16: 24-30 the whole picture is that they went out to “gather” manna on that day when God said there wouldn’t be any because of the Sabatth; and that is why they were to stay in their place as in don’t go trying to gather manna that day. I think the whole counsel of scripture supports going out on the Sabatth to worship as Jesus taught in the temple on the Sabatth and was out healing people, hanging out with the disciples eating grain, etc. But again, the Sabatth for me is not legalistic. It looks different for me almost every week and I don’t feel any pressure about what I should or shouldn’t do. I keep it in freedom. The one thing that is always really different as I started trying to honor the Sabatth is that I don’t just think what do I want to do that day or what can I get done that day. I think Sunday is coming up, how can I spend extra time with the Lord, and I try to get more done on Saturday in order to free up Sunday. I also think that we are in freedom and if people’s schedule is too busy to try that every week then why not purpose to set aside one Sunday a month - like the first Sunday of the month and just schedule that day as a Jesus day? Scott, thanks for getting that my heart in it is to honor God, to be obedient, but to also have balance and freedom.
And as a side note, for me “mood” is just quietness. Our world is so loud. There is noise going on 24/7 and man I just love when it is quiet. I can skip the candles, background instrumental music, icons, beads, prayer books and prayers of Saints of old, etc. I most certainly will skip the head shawl (I am not all that submissive :), there the truth is out. Butterfly flies free and does not like being too grounded!
Dear Sister,
Those words are such a blessing. I fear I am showing my emotional side as I tear up. That is amazing! Thank you for sharing. I love this….”He is not within a thousand miles of it”. How easy it is for some to think they are so holy compared to others and this is why scripture says to not compare ourselves. We are not within a thousand miles of God’s holiness, now that should end all mindless striving. Beautiful.
“I do not believe in sanctification, I believe in the Sanctifier” - I will be printing this and meditating on it for a long time.
Beautiful - Thank you for posting it !!!!!!!!!!!!
Butterfly said “…(I am not all that submissive :)”
See! I knew if kept it up, the truth would finally come out!
Just kidding!
Blessings.
Drew
I know you didn’t direct the comment toward me and even if you did I wasn’t offended. I have some history with BK that you may or may not be familiar with and he is into (as you know) Christian keeping the Torah. His reasoning is if you Love Christ you will. His reasoning breaks down though when you press the issue and ask what if I choose to not keep Torah?
He insists that “You will and it’s not law but love”. While he will not openly admit it in print the inference is if you don’t keep Torah then you may not be saved. So his is a works oriented faith and so like the Judaizers