A couple of years ago when the scandal in Albuquerque had come to a well publicized head the outcome of that scandal was decided in Costa Mesa.
Surrounded by the evidence that we presented as well as that which he had commissioned himself, Paul Smith put his hands in the basin, wiped them on the Stipe Report and said "I find no fault in this man".
The only men who could have sanctioned Skip Heitzig refused to sanction him and he was free to rebuild his kingdom.
That brings us to today's stories.
Over the weekend we were broken and enraged reading "Noel's Story" on the Sovereign Grace Survivors blog.
That story, along with many testimonies there and at the SGM Refuge paint a picture of a denomination with deep structural dysfunction.
Let me be clear.
Just as have seen with Calvary Chapel, not all these churches and pastors are bad.
What is equally clear is that there is something in the denominational DNA that lends itself to legalism and the kind of ministerial abuse chronicled in Noel's story.
It's also clear to me that there is no structure in place for the congregants to report abuse and see it corrected.
Because these blogs and other sites have chronicled many cases of abuse without a positive response from leadership, it is also clear that leadership is unconcerned by the issue.
It's time to make them concerned.
C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris are the visible leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries even if they are not the legal leadership.
They are also the darlings of the neo Reformed branch of evangelicalism lecturing on every conceivable topic at conferences all over the country.
It's time for them to step up and deal with their own backyard or be marked out as those who allow abuse to occur by omission.
With great power comes great responsibility…
These men have the power to make a difference for the Noel's of their flock.
Will they?
That leads us to our next story where once again there is a wild pig loose in the vineyards of the Lord.
Todd Bentley is beginning his comeback.
It was suggested here that we help expose him and I got all excited…until I realized he's already been exposed.
He is a documented liar, fornicator, and adulterer.
What else do you need?
You need the same "apostolic leadership" that were fighting over the reigns to the gravy train to step up and take responsibility for their actions and sanction his.
Here's why it won't happen.
Todd knows where the bodies are buried,(but not resurrected) he knows the tricks to make glitter appear and oil leak from your hands and he'll take the whole phony carnival down with him.
The "renewal" created Bentley, now we all get to live with him.
Will Bill Johnson, Randy Clark and the "apostles" step up?
Maybe, but I think there's a better chance of me seeing an angel fly by leaking oil and coughing glitter.
In both situations it's incumbent upon those who can make a positive difference to do so.
We'll see what happens…
Do you really want to compare a condemnation of Bentley to the pope’s condemnation of Luther as a wild boar? (Or did I miss the reference?)
Bentley is a living example of 2 Timothy 3:1-9.
1. But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3. unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4. traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5. having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6. For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7. always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8. Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
9. but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
Praying this morning. Praying that God moves in this situation…that He stirs His Spirit in His servants. Praying that those who are weak and covering sin or ignoring sin would be convicted and moved to act. Praying for those with conviction and courage to stand and not waver. Praying for those who would abuse and manipulate that they would be brought to their knees in humility and repentance.
God, move. Don’t let this be yet another time that Your church fails in weakness. Bring us back to You….protect the innocents, heal those who have been abused and burn in us a desire for You to be glorified in Your church.
Regarding SGM…
CJ Mahaney - you can say something. PLEASE do so. Noel’s story is sickening, and to think that shepherds of God’s people had no desire to protect the sheep is abhorrent.
Has anybody gone to CJ Mahaney or Josh Harris or the specific people from Noel’s story according to Matthew 18? Anyone know?
I didn’t finish Noel’s story…didn’t have the gastrointestinal fortitude…
C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris you can actually do something. If you want simple notoriety then you already have it and will find those who will allow you to retain it.
If you want to be a point person amongst pastors who love the Jesus who shepherds his flock and his beloved then we are watching.
By your actions or lack thereof we will accord you as a person of notoriety or a true shepherd who will even sacrifice their reputation in this life in order to do right by the blood bought people of God.
I have a prayer request….my aunt is in the hospital in very serious condition…don’t want to get into the specifics here…thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
Hi. I am the moderator of the “SGM Survivors” blog. Someone asked if either CJ Mahaney or Josh Harris has been approached according to the Matthew 18 principle. The answer is yes, many times over. I personally have not contacted either of them directly, as my husband and I did not ourselves have a bad experience with SGM. We just left because, as I stated in the blog’s very early days, we felt there were too many “cultural oddities” within SGM and that it did not fit our family very well.
But MANY others have sent the blog’s link to both CJ and Josh (and, I believe, SGM’s offices) over the course of this past year. Likewise, I know that at least one individual wrote them via snail mail and also faxed SGM’s offices. My contact info is clearly available via a tab at the top of the site.
We’ve heard nothing from them. But through their minions (local pastors who talk to loyal SGM members, who then come around and defend SGM on the site and attack those who post their stories of abuse), they “pooh-pooh” the blog by saying several things.
They say that these are “anonymous” stories…as though anonymity prevents truthfulness. Tell that to the FBI, which spends lots of government dollars establishing anonymous tip lines. Just because someone chooses to post something without including their name and address, that does not automatically mean that what they post is untruthful, any more than that an anonymous tip cannot lead to the arrest and conviction of a criminal.
They say that these stories only reflect one side - as though if we were to just hear the pastors’ side of things, all would be well.
They say that these stories happened a long time ago. Not true. The most recent tale of child sex abuse, in which SGM pastors ignored the victim and had to be subpoenaed and forced to testify in court, happened in the spring of 2008. While it’s true that many of the stories shared on our site did happen 10 or even 20 years ago, SGM has never publicly repented of the systems that made those stories occur. And they continue to foster the controlling behaviors by having a pyramid-style leadership structure, with narrowing spheres of accountability, the farther up the leadership food chain one goes. You are absolutely correct in that there is no system in place for the average SGM member to address problems or injustices.
The whole experience of starting this blog and then being bombarded with all these stories has made me feel like I am living in some parallel universe. Everywhere you turn, it feels like Sovereign Grace Ministries is only gaining in credibility. Mahaney and Harris truly ARE the “darlings” of a certain growing segment of Reformed Christianity. SGM’s music is gaining in popularity.
And yet I know what comes through on our site, and more importantly, I know the even greater abuses shared with me privately, via email, from people too scared and too broken even to comment on an anonymous blog.
It’s crazy.
Michael/Moderators,
We need the email addresses of the SGM leaders so we can start an email campaign similar to what we did with Toyota for DMW. Can someone provide those so we can get started?
“There’s a better chance of me seeing an angel fly by leaking oil and coughing glitter.”
Michael…………lol!
I would say the same about Mahaney and Harris speaking out. Like Smith with Skip, its easier to turn your head hoping the criticism will go away. We need more men like Tom Stipe, who had the courage to speak the truth in love. It can be difficult to speak out about your own, but to ignore wrong only condones it.
On another note, my wife and I traveled north over Christmas break. We attended the church that tour us apart five years ago. Now, under new leadership, that church is again reaching out blessing the community with the hope that Jesus brings! It was a wonderful experience!
SGM leadership sounds like Nixon and his cronies…
“Stonewall!
Stonewall!
Stonewall!”
I should add that the issues with Sovereign Grace Ministries go a lot deeper than the stories of abuse by pastors.
SGM uses all the buzzwords of Reformed Christianity, but within the confines of a committed SGM experience, those buzzwords will take on other layers of meaning. In other words, the outside world will hear a talk by CJ Mahaney or Josh Harris and think that what they are saying is perfectly normal, biblical, and correct. And it IS. But then again, it isn’t, really, because some of the terms Mahaney and Harris use mean different things to them than they do to your average Bible-based Christian.
Here’s just one example: their talk about the “importance of the ‘local’ church.”
Within SGM, there is (as there is in other Bible-based, cult-like organizations) a strong sense that SGM is superior to other churches. Oh, they never come right out and SAY this. But they do indeed teach it in a myriad of ways. They talk all the time about the “importance of the local church.” What they actually mean, though, is the “importance of the local *SGM* church.”
SGM confuses sharing the Gospel with sharing SGM.
Here’s how we can know this is the case.
SGM supports very little - if any - actual missionary work, in the traditional classic sense. They openly will talk about how they are called to minister to the “local church.” They view “missions” as taking place within the “local church.”
That still sounds good to most Evangelical Christians, particularly those of a “Reformed” bent.
But again, with the redefinition of terms, SGM is NOT talking about the actual “local” church, as in “any good Bible-believing, Gospel-proclaiming church that is in the neighborhood.”
Rather, SGM “spreads the Gospel” (in other words, “does missions”) by planting more SGM churches.
All it takes is a glance at their church-planting strategy to see how redefined this “gospel” really is.
When SGM plants a new congregation, they do a lot of market research as to where the SGM lifestyle will work the best. Then, the “sending church” finds perhaps 20 or so families who are willing to sell homes, make job changes, and move across the country to the new location.
To me, that began to sound more than a bit cultic. But perhaps to you, it still sounds good. I don’t know. But here’s the deal. SGM almost never plants a church in an area that doesn’t have very many churches. No. They almost always seek out upper-middle-class suburbia, and they will locate smack-dab in the middle of a neighborhood that already has several other Bible-believing, Gospel-proclaiming churches. To illustrate: right now, SG’s latest church plant is going to be to Colorado Springs, Colorado, the Evangelical Mecca of the U.S. Several families are selling homes at a loss in Arizona and moving without jobs so that they can be part of this “great mission” to “share the Gospel.” But given how many good churches already make their home in Colorado Springs, one can only conclude that what they are REALLY sharing is not the Gospel, necessarily. It’s simply got to be more about Sovereign Grace Ministries, since within Colorado Springs, there must be a church on just about every corner. Those can’t ALL be “unbiblical” churches, right?
SGM’s church-planting approach is Exhibit A in the fact that, as cults do, SGM believes its “take” on Christianity is better than that of any other church. When they talk about the importance of the “local church,” they are referring to the “local” *SGM* church (and MAYBE churches affiliated with John Piper, John MacArthur, or a couple of their other favored gurus). SGMers will often commute an hour just to attend a Sovereign Grace church, so there’s nothing “local” about it.
Redefinition of terms.
Even if there were NO stories of abuse, I believe there is enough within the Sovereign Grace Ministries paradigm to warrent extreme concern.
Thanks for allowing me to run off at the mouth (keyboard) here. Normally, I do not comment on other blogs, but I feel compelled to explain a bit more about my concerns.
Morning Folks. Kris, thank you for your input. You said in your post that “everywhere you turn, it feels like SGM is only gathering credibility”.
Not so…. though I can’t prove it. The world is much bigger than SGM’s so called influence.
What disturbed me in Noel’s story was the fact that she kept trying to deal with the church leaders that clearly were not going to help.
Friends, the world is so much larger than our little bitty circles of church stuff and church people. GET OUT! People can be used and abused, but where there isn’t a lock on the door, GET UP and GET OUT GO ON…. Why are we so blind to submit to crap like that, SGM, Todd Bently, and the other deflied “pastors” we know of. MOVE ON! Give place for wrath, for vengence belongs to the Lord!
God’s realm of believers is huge. There are decent (not perfect) fellowships out there. Go, and let go and don’t give a rat’s rear what other churchy people thing about you. Who cares? Don’t play the victim in the name of righteous indignation. God is able!
Noel should have gone to the police first and left the church stuff out of the picture to obtain some kind of justice for her child and legit help for the boy and his mom Dee Nial.
This kind of stuff brings disgrace to the Name of Jesus Christ who has given us everything necessary for life and godliness in Him and the true knowledge of His Word….. not the contorted version of the Word that is spoon fed by defiled leaders! Rise up and press onward to the upward call!
ok I’ll calm down now.
I didn’t make it through the article. Maybe I’ll come back to conclude it. It really tied my stomach in knots. My heart wants to say that Pastor’s aren’t capable of such filth but sadly I know that’s not reality.
If one of those Pastor’s had laid the trip on me to search my heart and my sins after what happened to that child I would have floored him on the spot and then laid the same trip on him as he was deciding what to do about the blood pouring out of his broken nose.
You don’t mess with any person’s child under any circumstance and that includes what those involved with this family “counseled” as far as I read are concerned. Nothing makes my blood boil more than the attacks on the most defenseless among us.
The man next door to us several years ago scared our young teenaged daughter to death as he went to her window and invited her over to his place and described her room to her. I went over there and it was only God’s grace that kept me from tearing his head off.
Some serious house cleaning needs to be done. This is so sickening.
paigemom,”Noel should have gone to the police first and left the church stuff out of the picture to obtain some kind of justice for her child and legit help for the boy and his mom Dee Nial”
I hope everyone here can see the sanity and logic of your post!
God keep
Kris,
Welcome!
Can you get us contact info for Mahaney and Harris?
Kris,
Thanks for your input here. No need to apologize for running off the keyboard!
When I left CC, I considered going to the local SGM church. Then I downloaded a sermon by the pastor - who sounds JUST LIKE John Piper(I mean, like he has all the vocal inflections of JP’s down pat.) I thought that was a bit much to take, so I declined.
Paige Mom: Thank you for your sanctified. rant. Being under and in a system that manipulates a true believer’s love for God is what makes this so sick and perverse. Noel was seriously conflicted and confused as a result of the combined perversity of these so called pastors.
Noel and her husband did eventually find the persevering wisdom from God and followed through doing the right thing. I am sure that Noel and her husband are dealing with enough shame and struggle as is.
But the weight of sin and the blood is upon these pastors and the pastoral system and mentors who trained them and oversee them.
Yes, Victorious, Noel did honestly what she thought was the best, Christ honoring things. But, she, like I did in my former situation, and so MANY other women (in particular) that I know are in a nearly cult-like state of being controlled, thinking that this is what God expects of them: to be treated like garbage and take it with grace in the Name of the Lord Jesus and forgive and love the perpetrators with a Stepford Wife attitude. . It’s called Doormat 101 and I had a Master’s Degree in it.
Noel was lied to in the Name of Jesus, and yes the pastors and their mentors are ultimately responsible for polluting and contorting the Word of God, but somewhere along the line, we pew sitters (or church leaders) have got to find the door, hit the road and never look back!…..without feeling guilty and not discarding Real Faith in the Real Jesus! Sometimes assigning blame accomplishes nothing…. but protecting oneself is life preserving!
Obviously, this topic has hit a nerve with me. …..breathe
Kris,
What you’ve said is very valuable. Thanks very much for sharing.
Paigemom,
I’m with you totally, that it’s a big world and a big church world out there. I often shake my head and wonder why people put up with the Todd Bentleys of the world when there are so many better places to be. Just put on your running shoes and show some courage.
Unfortunately, there are some ‘mitigating’ factors that can make it hard to leave. For one, that’s all you may know in the church world, esp. if you were ’saved’ in a SGM or CC or whatever.
Plus, in these churches that tend to have people wrapping their whole lives around it, as opposed to mainline churches where people lead much more balanced lives, it’s really tough to leave such a church, especially emotionally and with the people. They stay for the eggs.
I’m so thankful that the fundagelical world was never all I knew in the Christian world.
A third factor is that conservative religious people have a tendency to blindly submit to authority.
Fourth, if you’re in a spiritually abusive church and that’s all you know, you don’t have anything to compare it with. It’s like the frog that gets dropped in the saucepan full of cold water. You can turn the heat up very gradually, and then
the frog gets cooked, but then it’s too late.
One thing I found really scary from Kris’s post: the use of language
that looks normal on the surface, but there are hidden meanings. That’s what groups like the Mormons do. Not saying SGM is Mormon or anything, but I believe it’s a very, very, very bad sign.
Lutheran
You said. ” Unfortunately, there are some ‘mitigating’ factors that can make it hard to leave. For one, that’s all you may know in the church world, esp. if you were ’saved’ in a SGM or CC or whatever.
…..if you’re married to the pastor for 30 years.
Thank God for His Deliverance…..
and now for the opportunities to lend a hand to the drowning gals who show up on our doorstep. amen
I think it’s the “blindly submitting to authority” that is the telltale symptom of something being seriously amiss. Sad.
When you hear your pastor say, “No one else in the area teaches the Bible like we do..”, that is a subtle hint, to not even think of leaving the church.
I heard it in CC, and I have heard others say it about the church I attend now. Kind of a bummer…
Wow, this isn’t exactly what I was expecting to have with my coffee this morning. I got about 3/4 through the SGM / Noel story. I’m thinking,… what has been said by others… I would have gone to the police earlier and left the “church” pretty quickly. If these guys do not know how to discern who is a victim and who is a wolf, I would not want them any where near my family. In the case of sexual abuse like this, the man of God needs to wield the “jawbone of an as$” and rescue the victims as much as possible. If this was my three year old daughter, I would be blogging from prison after I ripped someone’s head off. You can figure out which one. AAAAARRRGGGHHH!
As far as Bentley goes,… well, let’s see how far he goes. Do we need to buy tickets?
Kris,
If you’re still here, just curious…
What kind of training do SGM pastors receive? Is it internal,
learning as they go along? Are there any seminaries?
Papias
I used to hear those words repeatedly! That should be a catch phrase that signals “Run like he$%!”
Papias, unfortunately those types of statements are all too common.
Men comparing themselves to men. Insecurity in Christ.
I can’t even bring myself to read the SGM story.
As far as Bentley goes, he has to keep it going. He can’t dig ditches and he’s too proud to beg.
So, he’ll continue to cheapen the value of the Father’s estate and sell it off to willing compromiser’s for 10 cents on the dollar. They are lining up even as we speak.
Say, didn’t Jesus give a parable to that effect?
So much for Apostolic alignment.
What really troubles me is that I was so naive I didn’t see the signs. I was a pastor, and you would have thought I could see the signs of elitism. With a rare exception the only guest speakers were of the same affiliation. I remember after 9/11 pastors from other denominations met to pray, we had our own. Time after time, from the pulpit, other churches were criticized for not teaching the Word. Well known authors were blasted from the pulpit. I sat there and shook my head in agreement. What a fool I became!
Michael,
“Paul Smith put his hands in the basin, wiped them on the Stipe Report and said “I find no fault in this man”.
In all fairness to Paul Smith, I think you should amend your statement to read:
Paul Smith after considering the Stipe Report and his own research, said “I find no fault in this man worthy of removal”.
Liking him to Pilate seems a bit ungracious to me, especially if you knew Paul as I and others do.
I’m not saying Paul is incapable of error, or that I agreed with his conclusions, or how he handled things.
Lutheran,
re your 11:09, SGM has a 9 month pastors college.
Michael-thank you so much for posting this!
Bob,
I think everyone thinks their church does it better to some degree or another, otherwise they wouldn’t attend where they are (just ask MLD if he thinks the Lutherans have it more right! -
)
The key thing is being humble enough to admit you may be wrong in that assessment, or even doctrinally, and be gracious in your dealing with other brethren.
One of the fears within the varieties of pentecostalism (I still consider myself doctrinally and in practice a pentecostal) is that men would somehow quench the move of the Holy Spirit; however that may be recognized or defined directly or simply implied.
Some major on this more than others but even CC has distributed it’s own version that finds it’s place amongst the official and unofficial distinctives.
There is often an unstated or unchallenged fear that planning for and carrying out an order of action to shepherd the people of God in the midst of this movement will ruin the work of God.
However, was there a greater move of the Spirit then when the Holy Spirit came upon Christ at His baptism? Jesus was pretty methodical and intentional in His teaching and ministry and yet was the Spirit quenched as a result?
Jesus is my pentecostal pastor vic,
Bob, what I was getting at was this fear has an effect on our sensibilities that goes beyond plain old peer pressure IMO.
The wisdom you have gained is and will be harnessed by the Lord for His glory and the good of the brethren you influence.
AB
I can honestly say that I never felt that any of the 5 churches that I had the privilege to pastor had the corner on the market. I know of many pastors who feel the same way. There is nothing wrong with feeling that your church has is right. The problem is when the pastor stands in front of the people and makes the proclamation.
As far as MLD goes, he believes the old Barry Goldwater saying: “In your heart you know he’s right”.
And Barry was right….that is to the right of Genghis Khan.
Contact info is sparse. SGM and CLC, where Josh is Sr P, are on the same grounds. The only email address one can find is:
covlife@covlife.org
SGM has a contact form on their website. Below are their addresses and phone numbers.
Covenant Life Church
7501 Muncaster Mill Rd
Gaithersburg, Md. 20877
301-869-2800
Sovereign Grace Ministries
7505 Muncaster Mill Road
Gaithersburg, MD 20877
Telephone:
800.736.2202 / 301.330.7400
Fax:
301.948.7833
Jim or Kris,
Has there ever been a newspaper article anywhere about any of this
abuse? Not just the one that you linked us to.
One thing about the SGM pastors that you hear over and over, especially by regular members, is that these pastors are “imperfect.” What you don’t hear very often, if ever, is these “imperfect” pastors admitting their imperfections/what they have done wrong. People do make mistakes, but one should own up and admit them.
Steve
First post to this blog.
One big difference between Lutheran pastors and those from the high profile churches (CC, SGM etc) is that no one can name any Lutheran pastors
Welcome to the PP Steve
“The problem is when the pastor stands in front of the people and makes the proclamation.”
Bob, Amen!
LOL on the Genghis Khan thing!
MLD -
Ummm…what about Martin Luther?
Lutheran,
SGM trains its pastors in a 9-month course at what they call their “Pastors’ College,” (or the “PC”).
What is actually studied there is NOT specifically publicized. To attend, one must be selected through an arduous and quite mysterious process. One key part of this process: if a man expresses an interest in the PC before his pastor/authorities deem him to be ready, he will probably NOT be considered for candidacy, unless he’s a son of a current SGM pastor or “apostle.” Demonstrating openly that one feels called to the ministry, prior to one’s SGM pastor/authority recognizing that gift in one, is considered a display of arrogance.
I have received email from one woman whose husband attended the PC. I don’t know precisely when they were there, whether this was recent or several years ago, but she described a grueling process of reprogramming, “discipleship” relationships that required her husband AND her to lay themselves completely bare to their “mentor” couple and have every last sin and weakness probed. From her descriptions, it was obvious that SGM systematically breaks down its pastoral candidates until they are utterly submissive putty in the hands of their authorities.
After the 9-month course at the PC, these men will be sent out to serve. Typically they are not immediately given a senior pastorate, but sometimes they are. Nobody knows precisely what these guys are paid, but SGM pastors make a nice comfy living. Folks have spoken frequently of pastors able to afford very nice homes and the typical perks of a middle- to upper-middle-class family. It is almost unheard of for a Sovereign Grace pastor’s wife to work outside the home, so one of those “perks” is a stay-at-home wife who typically will homeschool her children.
As you might be able to tell, I think that SGM’s system for indoctrinating its pastors and inflating them with a strong sense of their own “authority,” and then keeping them very tethered to the organization through cushy wages, is really ingenious, ESPECIALLY when you consider that their PC “degree” is essentially worthless anywhere else.
The PC is quite expensive, too. Again, exact fees are not disclosed, but people have bandied about the figure of $40,000. For one year. Please understand, I don’t know for sure if that’s accurate. I’m also pretty sure it refers to the whole cost of school, not just tuition. In other words, the $40k figure likely means what it takes for a man to quit a job (if he already has one), move his family to Maryland, pay for housing and living expenses, buy books, and pay whatever SGM charges for the classes.
Thanks for the welcome, by the way.
MLD, no need to name the pastors when a man’s name is found on every local church marquee and denominational letterhead.
Steve,
Welcome!
MLD,
I knew I could draw you out of the woodwork!
My old Lutheran pastor’s name was David Showalter.
Tim,
I think MLD was referring to nondead Lutherans.
Marty’s been dead for, oh, 500 years or so.
Kris,
Appreciate all that you know!
Their pastor’s training kind of sounds like a parallel universe.
Kris
Welcome to the PP!
As you might be able to tell, I think that SGM’s system for indoctrinating its pastors and inflating them with a strong sense of their own “authority,” and then keeping them very tethered to the organization through cushy wages, is really ingenious, ESPECIALLY when you consider that their PC “degree” is essentially worthless anywhere else.
What a dangerous system…
Lute -
“nondead Lutherans.”
How can you tell the difference?
Good one, London.
But watch your back…
They are the one’s not drinking beer!!
Hey Hopkins….you can add that one to your new joke book!!
Gotta be better than anything you’ve written so far!
This is just for Lute and MLD!
http://kevingpowell.blogspot.com/2008/05/famous-lutherans-to-make-us-feel.html
Another Steve…Alright!!! question is how does he spell his name; Steven or Stephen.hmmmmmm
A man was on a train and walks the isle asking are there any Presbyterians here? No answer. “How about an Episcopalian?” No answer. “Any Baptist?”
Finally a guy speaks up and says “Im a Cc pastor, can I help you?” and the guy says “No, you’re not help. I m just looking for a bottle opener for my beer bottle”
“…no help…”
Kris,
“it was obvious that SGM systematically breaks down its pastoral candidates until they are utterly submissive putty in the hands of their authorities.”
They are called the Manchurian Pastor.
SteveH.,
As long as you’re editing, is there really and island on a train? “and walks the isle” should be “and walks the aisle”.
MLD,
What’s the trigger?
NEW JOKES Steve….we’re looking for NNNNEEEEWWWW jokes!:roll:
I was a member of one of these churches for nearly ten years and I can assure you they abuses their authority.
They take patriarchal teachings to an extreme, Noel’s husband, for example, was told to, “Control his wife.” How offensive.
They seemingly took the interest of the perp (male) over the victim (female.) There is a general pattern of male centeredness.
They strongly advocate draconian parenting methodologies that create passive obedient children who, as a result, are particularly vulnerable to predation.
They tend to isolate themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ and there is a hirarchal system in which all guidance and correction flows from the top down and never in the opposite direction.
The common denominator in this family of churches is fear. People live in fear, they are motivated by their leaders with fear (anything from you must whip your toddler lest he become a nightmare to you must tithe or you will lose money through disasters right to modesty checks and sniffing out indwelling sin in everyone.
People are encouraged not to trust their own guts or the good common sense put inside everyone.
Noel’s story is but the tip of an iceberg.
Catchy tune there AB
TonyP,
“Pastor, can I ask you a question?”
tony
always a heckler in any comedian’s audience
The fact that pastors are out there perpetrating these things is bad enough. But when those that are called to judge/reprimand them instead cover them up or brush them under the carpet it becomes even worse.
I weep with the idea that every day people come to the house of God and are violated mentally, emotionally, financially, spiritually. The wrath that those who do these things will experience will be beyond severe.
Can they be reconciled? Yes. Can/should they be forgiven? Yes. IF there is TRUE repentance.
Watch out Tony or he’ll put you in a headlock and give you a noogie until you cry.
DB,
“Noel’s husband, for example, was told to, “Control his wife.” How offensive.”
How offensive? How about how impossible!!
Spoken by someone married 40 years at the end of this month
MLD,
The eyes glaze over and up comes the double-barrelled bible? “Must indoctrinate, must indoctrinate…”
SteveH,
heckleheckleheckleheckle…….
AB,
Thanks for the song. I have the CD.
I haven’t played it for awhiel and learned some things — didn’t know Stormin’ Norman Schwartzkopf was a Lutheran. I knew Bach was, but not Pachelbel. I knew Dana Carvey was.
Garrison Keillor’s an honorary Lutheran. If it looks like a duck, etc.
DB,
Welcome to the blog!
How difficult is it for someone to leave? What if you’re just a regular member and not in leadership?
London,
I am a MANLY man! I DO NOT cry! I sob gently in my closet after everyone has gone…..
Also, a headlock is hard on a guy with a neck as “full” as mine, and noogies work best when someone has hair.
MLD,
ROTFLOL.
I’ve been married over 30 years, and I second what you said!
I’ve (largely) said my peace over at the Open Blogging thread.
The story is disgusting and horrifying. The reaction of the pastors is almost as equally disgusting and horrifying.
We are Christians. We are called to represent and live for a holy God.
Things like this most certainly do NOT represent a holy God, and may just be a filthy stench in His nostrils that He will not tolerate.
Look into our lives and find sin, and tell us to yank the planks out of our eyes, before we criticize this. Fair enough. Just yank the plank out of your own eye before you do.
Lyle Lovett! WooT! I may convert
This is a good song/video for this tribute to Lutheranism thread.
You have to scroll down and click on the song called “Church” Can’t find the song on youtube.
http://www.lylelovett.com/#/video/
London,
From the looks of that video, Lyle seems to have converted to Southern Baptist!
LOL! dude, I grew up southern baptist and never saw anything like that till……well you know.
I have been steaming over this child abuse story ever since I read it. I have been wrestling with the question of why these church leaders ultimately chose the perpetrator over the victim. I haven’t seen any hint of the usual suspects (rich family, prominent church leader, attorney, big talker etc.) and in fact it looks like the family of the victim had much more to offer the church than the family of the perpetrator. I am left to suspect that this travesty is at least partly due to this crazy modern cultural phenomenon of egalitarianism. We are just too nice, and too obsessed with trying to minister to everyone. We want to be compassionate with everyone. And in the process, we are sometimes unable to be truly compassionate with those who need it most. In Corinth they didn’t minister to the pervert and his family, they kicked him out of church. He needed the cold hard reality of rejection. And in his case, it apparently worked (or at least that’s what we tell ourselves.) Nowadays we are so politically correct that we don’t want to brand anyone as being wrong. We just say that we are all wrong, just in different ways and to different degrees. So we take a three year old rape victim and a 16 year old pervert and tell them to both say they’re sorry and let’s move on with our public relations machine. That just doesn’t work for the family of this poor baby and they ultimately become the problem. Our prophet is Rodney King, as he appeals to us, “Can’t we all just get along?” To which I answer, NO!! We all can’t just get along! Not as long as there are perverts among us. And if somebody doesn’t have the guts and integrity to step up and lance the boils on the butt of the church, the losers will be those who need us the most. The victims who won’t just play along because they can’t play along because they hurt too much, will look like the problem because they are demanding so much time and energy from the corporate managers. Sometimes you just have to choose who you will minister to. To not choose is to choose. And if we can’t figure this out, a lot of houses of cards will fall as a result.
Sorry for the rant.
I was looking for this great song he has called “God will” but I can’t find a video for it except a couple cover videos that aren’t very good.
Some people might find it amusing, but I do…It has to be heard sung though…not just reading lyrics.
Later
might not find it amusing…
Only Lyle Lovett can make a public service announcement great. Man.
Actually, there are quite a few Lutherans in Texas. The LCMS has a university there, I think in Austin.
Dave,
I respect your rant and your POV…
But I just don’t see the connection here. It’s a lot more complicated than just one thing, and I don’t even see this as
a cause. But I could be wrong.
This is manipulation, pure and simple. It’s lots of things — authoritarian control, taking advantage of people who are weak and/or suffering, etc. Primarily, trust has been violated.
I’d like to hear from the SGM folks what their experience has been.
Here’s a brief list about the causes —
Undue Loyalty to Leaders - The leadership is held to be anointed by God and followers taught they should submit in anything it requires. It is taught that God will bless that submission even if the leader is wrong.
Authoritarian - The system is characterized by rules and a power structure that is unaccountable to those who follow.
Appearance is Everything - As Jeff VanVonderen says, “How things look is more important than what is real.” (Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, page 130)
Perfectionistic - Works are necessary for salvation, to keep one’s salvation, or to keep God’s blessing.
Unbalanced - There is usually a majoring on minors that makes the group distinctive from others.
Jeff VanVonderen observes that the symptoms exhibited by one who suffers spiritual abuse are point by point the same as a victim of incest. Each is a case of a trusted caregiver violating that trust in one of the most intimate parts of our human nature.
http://www.watchman.org/cults/spiritualabusebible.htm
Lutheran,
I agree with all you say, and these are certainly characteristics that allow this kind of thing. But what I am thinking about gets more to the center of why this was dealt with the way it was, and why leaders tend to turn on those who need them most. Your analysis shows why they get away with it.
To James T Kirk,
Concerning the Matt 18. Noel and I spent 1999 to 2002 in more than 20 attempts at Matt 18, from our pastors to John Loftness, he was the highest we could go - CJ was off limits to talking directly with us.
It was a stone wall.
Lutheran
Your 1:25 is spot on!
Quote from Luthern quoting VonVonderin,
“Undue Loyalty to Leaders - The leadership is held to be anointed by God and followers taught they should submit in anything it requires. It is taught that God will bless that submission even if the leader is wrong.”
These leaders are elevated. They have the metaphoric keys to the executive bathroom. Questioning them doesn’t bode well and some of them consider themselves apostles.
“Authoritarian - The system is characterized by rules and a power structure that is unaccountable to those who follow.”
Totally. They are obcessed with authority and it flows from the top down. They do not answer to anyone but themselves.
“Appearance is Everything - As Jeff VanVonderen says, “How things look is more important than what is real.” (Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, page 130)”
Yes. They want everything to look good.
“Perfectionistic - Works are necessary for salvation, to keep one’s salvation, or to keep God’s blessing.”
From beating babies to tithing to modesty checks to looking for indwelling sin to homeschooling to kissing dating good-bye.
“Unbalanced - There is usually a majoring on minors that makes the group distinctive from others.”
They do not interact with other local churches. They keep to themselves. They are ingrown.
These people operate out of fear and they keep people in check using classic fear mongering techniques.
Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Jeff VanVonderen is an excellent book.
Dave, no apologies needed. I agree with you completely. Sometimes among people, there will be no peace.
The Word is clear: “insofar as it is possible, live at peace with all men.” That does not mean for us to go the PC route and embrace a false peace and pat each other on the back.
This church missed a huge opportunity to really get the Word off the page for both correction and ministry. Shame on them for minimizing the sin.
I think we should just “white wash” the whole thing. Remember what is important here is the on-going health and welfare of the organization and there will always be casualties.
These things just happen in warfare, you know!
Mt 16:19* “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
We have been given the Keys —
I think one of the keys we have been given is a key to close doors to protect our family from harm coming in
I think one of the Keys we have been given so to go out and open prison doors to set captives Free
Another Key is to open the door and lead people into the Kingdom.
Any thoughts on other keys and what we ought to do with the Keys of the Kingdom
Like maybe we need to open the doors to usher some abusive people out and lock the door behind them?
Or the keys to the warehouse of the riches that are in Christ Jesus our Lord
Drew,
Tell me you’re not thinking of switching churches…
Here is a real life solution to an abuse problem.
Our youth pastor told the story about how a couple of years ago he had to accompany his former youth pastor to the police headquarters.
What had happened is this former youth pastor he was going to the police with was found to have been having affairs with teenage girls under his pastorate. As part of his penance the elders had him go personally to the police and turn himself in.
Our you pastor was shocked at this man’s confession to the detective, but he said it changed his life to hear this man and the horrible deeds he had done. It made him take his eyes off men and lay them at Jesus feet.
Wouldn’t this solve a lot of problems if more Elders would require such consequences!
Lutheran:
Sorry my bucket of white wash is empty.
I’d like to second or third Bob Sweat’s recommendation of any books or anything by Jeff VanVonderen to help you recover from this horror. My
favorite is “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.” God bless all of you.
Folks, a few of us have decided to sit this discussion out. It probably needs to be talked about but I get tunnel visioned sometimes and every thing looks negative. It’s my problem and no one else.
Im going to take Sarah’s advice and reflect on the Lord and feed my spirit. I am just too weak sometimes to think about these things among the other crap that happens in my own town and my own movement.
I am certain you’ll all understand. No dissing of any one or rebuke for posting this…like I said it needs to be talked about but I am not strong enough for a second round of Bentley
Unless it has 4 wheels and it drives
If you want to see something amazing take a look at this:
http://vimeo.com/1778399
As I said already, the Bentley will drive again.
Did I mention that even after being totally debunked, ole’ Peter Popoff raked in 23 million last year? That’s right! 23 million! Mostly from selling “anointed” sea salt from the Dead Sea. I kid you not!
Scott,
Goes good on fries…..makes em taste “holy”.
James T. Kirk:
Our children were abused while we attended SGC/Fairfax. We DID go to the police and the pastoral staff refused to cooperate with our detective, give necessary information or testify on behalf of our child. Which resulted in a subpoena for 2 of their staff members.(March 2008)
We knew these pastors for over 10 years and we explained that their appearance in court would of kept our child off the witness stand and would keep our child from having to relay their nightmare to the entire court.
Their response to this was “No, I have my churches reputation to consider.”
As a point of clarification, minutes before the trial started we discovered that the perpetrator had decided not to fight the felony charge and the pastors did not have to testify.
We have not heard from one staff member to inquire as to the welfare of our child. That was 10 months ago.
Happymom,
First, my heart goes out to you.
What would you like to see happen now and how can we help?
Michael,
First let me express my gratitude to you for posting this sad story. I have been following it. I hesitate to comment.
In response to your last question to Happymom, may I ask what your thoughts are? Aside from posting the link to Noel’s story, it seems like there’s nothing that anyone can do to help this organization recognize the grave mistakes they have made.
I do not know. It is very very sad.
Sidney,
The more we publicize these abuses and the more specifically we can shine a spotlight on certain people the better chance there is in forcing someone to take positive action.
You can make a difference.
You have to believe that.
Personally, I need to pray and assess how much I have left in the tank and see if the Lord would have this community engage this situation in a more serious fashion.
Let me say it again…you can make a difference.
Happymom,
My heart goes out to you. This is so sickening. I can barely see straight, I’m so angry.
Sidney,
I think one thing we can do, we’re doing — warning people about
SGM. I’m hoping someone in the media has the b**ls to do some investigating.
Others of us have been through spiritual abuse. I’m hoping that it might help a little to know you’re not alone. But I’m not trying to minimize what any of you have experienced, either. If I have, I ask your forgiveness.
Here’s suggestion. Go to:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Churches/USMap.aspx
Click on local churches and email a link to Noel’s story and a link to this thread today to the Pastors. Perhaps many of the local Pastors that are a part of the SGM Network haven’t heard about this story yet.
Of course be gracious
I don’t know the email addresses of CJ or Josh Harris, but Aron Osborne is one of the “regional apostles” and his email is aosborne@gcchurch.org. Believing him to be a man of integrity, I’d be curious as to what he’d say if someone emailed him about Noel’s story, but I don’t have the guts to do it myself and possibly get blacklisted by my whole church…
Sidney, Happymom, Kris, DB and any others who are coming here because of this story. May I add my prayers to the others being offered. Praying that our God who knows all suffering and rejection will be close to you in these times, that He will teach you to rely on Him in a special way through this. Praying that He will hold tenderly Your children and minister to them through you. Praying as well for strong and bold people to be raised who will add their voices to yours. May our gracious God send His Spirit before us….convicting hearts where needed, and comforting and protecting hearts where there is abuse and pain.
Michael…praying for great wisdom for you on the edge of this battle. Strength and wisdom, for you my friend, and protection of your heart and spirit.
AmFrench, why would you be part of a church you might be blacklisted from for asking a question?
That’s a good question–but the short answer is that I’m only 18, live with my parents, who love our SGM church, and my closest friends all go to our church, and if the pastors didn’t like my question, which I’m half afraid they would, I anticipate loads of conflicts with the parentals and being looked down upon by my less-close friends at our SGM church.
AmFrench, my apologies. As you are living with your parents, the choice is not yours. I apologize for presuming. Please forgive me and know that you are being prayed for.
AmFrench,
I admire you for posting that SGM regional apostle’s e-mail address.
Even though you are only 18, posting that may very well bring some awareness and pressure to bear on the situation.
…God have mercy
AMFrench, you are a brave young woman (I believe woman, if you’re a dude, sorry.)
But, folks, fear is dripping out of her posts; she rose above the *fear* to ask her question and post the email addresses.
She could face real reprisals.
This is wrong. God is not the author of fear.
Michael,
While I’m not sure what the ramifications would be if the client/clergy privilege were to be challenged, there needs to be some modification to this law when it comes to information regarding abuse and children. Pastors should be required to report these crimes and also notify church members who could possibly be at risk.
Having already buried a child many years ago, there are few things as painful as walking your child through the horror of abuse and the subsequent effects of that, but to be emotionally tortured by those who are supposed to care for the flock, regardless of one’s church affiliation, is just incomprehensible.
I would like to see sgm repent for this behavior, own what they have done and seek forgiveness.
Happymom….there is nothing worse to me than the abuse of a child. And I think anyone who is able and does not help a child who is facing abuse bears a heavy responsibility. I feel helpless in this situation and pretty much like a spectator…however we can join with you in prayer and I will be interceding from my home.
I cannot imagine the grief you have been through and the pain.
I know I am being redundant today, but it is all I can offer…on my knees for this whole situation.
Am French, I’m so sorry.
Also, I believe that all the pastors’ email addresses are their first initial AT church domain DOT org.
For example, JHarris@covlife.org
or CJMahaney@sovereigngraceministries.org and I know he used to be CJMahaney@covlife.org
How about SShank@whateverthedomainisforhischurch DOT org.
Thanks for the welcome to those of you who said!
Happymom, I am desperately sorry about your child.
Lastly, “Nomans”…your name links you back to http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com I see. I must give a plug for this wonderful ministry! I just finished day 21 of Lord’s Table.
(sorry…hope that was OK to do)
Wow … this is so hard to read. This brings back many very unpleasant memories. However … as hard as it is to think about … it MUST be thought about & discussed. As ugly as it is to discuss … bringing it into the light is the beginning of the solution to this problem that sadly seems to be growing. Silence just allows the problem to continue and even at times gain strength.
Thank you all who are sharing your stories and thank you to those discussing this terrible problem as well. You are all light bearers.
Happymom,
A few months ago, an angry judge asked a SGM attorney-
Do you think clergy privilege is to protect clergy or laity?
These little men were trying to hide behind a strawman and lost. They actually seemed to think that the law was there to protect them.
If the “client” waves privilege, there is none. Doctor, lawyers, clergy-it makes no difference. The law is in place to protect the client.
Lutheran-there are hundreds of stories on sgmsurvivors and sgmrefuge. I just spoke to a guy who just found us, and spent 22 hours reading the 2 blogs.
Oh yea … thanks bunches to those who provide a safe place for these stories of abuse to be told. Thanks Michael & Crew … thanks Jim!
Someone asked why people stay in these situations, one thing is fear, fear of loss of community that can be a very powerful tie. Also the us vs them end time type rhetoric something like a remnant mentality. During the y2k lie, which was completely manipulated by many ministries some folks ran up to the hills to wait it out and the coming “Anti Christ” (TM). Same think happened with the Camping crusade to make people leave all the churches for Bible fellowships. People become so invested that they cant imagine life apart from the group. When I got the boot, I was giving between 20-40 or more hours a week, some fifty one weeks a year. Basically I was told grow up, in a way that is true.
We cant need our personhood by the organization, even though you are lead down the primrose path. I mean the group I was in went on and on about us being family, we love you, we are here to help. Your not bothering us and other drivel. I dont give that much mind anymore. An adult person should not need that from a faith community. I can tell you that the most horrible pain I have ever felt has been the spiritual pain of being abandoned. Granted that is completely pathetic on my part, rather stupid as well but that is one main reason people put up with such stuff like TB or SGM or what ever.
For those who have been hurt by those in the position of authority, I offer abject and heartfelt apology. I know I have not been the one that has done it (nor will EVER be), but I reach out to you for the horrors you have had to experience. I know that the ones who have done these things may never tell you they are sorry, nor ask for your forgiveness, but as one who bears the responsibility of the position, I offer what apology I can. I mean this from the bottom of my heart.
For those that may breeze through here looking to see what that “Michael” has chosen to dig up against the brethren now, This is a REAL problem. One that bears the mantle of condemnation. I freely join what effort I can to help you Michael.
Happymom I am deeply sorry.
Grizly and happymom,
Thank you for the answer.
I *in no way* am making excuses for SGM people, there’s NO accusation in my question.
I’m glad to see Matthew 18 was followed BY YOU; a true miscarriage of divine justice when it’s not carried out by others!
God bless you and your loved ones…
fyi
“AmFrench, why would you be part of a church you might be blacklisted from for asking a question?”
FYI - You have no idea the amount of fear they put in people. I have been gone for over 10 years and yet I just read her post and I “feel” her fear. At SGM it is a fearful thing to be in the presence of a pastor, to talk to a pastor, If one talks to you - you might leave rejoicing like one of the lepers that was cleansed. To ask a pastor a question that might be confronting one for sin - nope - no way - that is terror.
Luthern - “Plus, in these churches that tend to have people wrapping their whole lives around it, as opposed to mainline churches where people lead much more balanced lives, it’s really tough to leave such a church, especially emotionally and with the people.”
You are dead on with this and alot of the other thoughts you posted here. When you are in SGM - really in - there is no other life. When I first started going to a non-SGM church it felt weird to have days go by without church contact. At SGM it is part of your life everyday. I now have a more balanced life and it is so peaceful and healthy and good. Jesus everyday! Jesus first! I love my church - but Jesus is the Way, the truth, and the life…not SGM, and not even my new church that I love.
Here are some SGM leaders email addresses:
Mark Mullery (senior pastor in Noel’s Story):
mmullery@sovgracefairfax.org
All the pastors at CLC:
allpastors@covlife.org
Dave Harvey (head apostle):
DHarvey@Covfel.org
Danny Jones (regional apostle):
ddjones@metrolife.org
I’m looking for more.
All,
This last week we were out of town at a wedding and family reunion. Of course, there was lots of surfacey talk, but one conversation really reminded me that spiritual abuse is not confined to one denomination.
An adult cousin, now a psychiatrist, talked at length with my husband about how he continues to examine how he became involved in his 20’s in Opus Dei, a catholic cultic organization. He described three sites which independently provided Opus Dei “awareness”. One of the sites missed one day in renewing their domain name. The moment it ran out, Opus Dei bought up the domain name and shut down the site.
I am amazed at the long arm of control exercised by those who seek to capitalize on spiritual zeal and direct it for their own purposes.
I positively adore Mrs. MLD’s uncontrollable nature!
Wow. Hearing this stuff brings back memories for me, too, but they’re distant now. I just hope folks with these raw wounds will believe that you’re not alone, and that over time, it can get better. It’s really, really, really tough because your trust has been violated. Sometimes it’s a back and forth process, not smooth and not without confusion.
Amen, Lutheran. And, though painful, it is truly a blessing that God is revealing the truth.
Dear Lutheran,
I think that is where the rest of the body of Christ is so important. I have had alot of healing come through my pastor without all the crazy stupid emotional attachment or demands that I lay down my life on his doorstep. There are times we need to actually hear that God wants us to come to Him, that He loves us, that there is always Hope in Christ, etc.
I have been in a mainline church for a year now and I have grown closer to God than in my 20 previous years; although, those experiences like SGM are what brought me to the end of self. I now just want to serve Jesus and love others the way He has loved me.
The people in mainline churches must reach out to those that are controlled and abused by “the church”…
Sites like this and others are very helpful.
Thank you all for the prayers and concern. God is our refuge and strength and He continues to care for us in so many ways.
I receive emails from SGM’rs every day. THE common thread is fear.
I helped start a church in 1996 that was adopted by SGM. I resigned from membership in 2006. Did not start my blog until June of 08.
My wife and I were high profile, and had many friendships there-some 20 years long. Many 15 years long, as the church was started from a split.
Guess how many of our former friends would talk to us after we left, before I started the blog.
3
When you’re out, you’re out, and if you were high profile (ie dangerous in the minds of these insecure men) they employ their famous scorched earth policy.
Control, fear, and manipulation are SOP in SGM’s playbook.
This “family of churches” will not reform. The younger men are sons or son’s in law of older pastors.
I’m praying for a mass exodus…
You know, the more I hear this title of “apostle” used of a man/woman in modern times, the less I like it. I don’t know if there is a man/woman around who can properly carry that title without abusing their authority. Also, if a person is truly functioning as an “apostle” would he really want to have that title? Why? It seems like these modern “apostles” relish and promote their titles. PC has never promoted himself as an apostle though others have remarked at times that if anyone were a modern day apostle it would be him.
So, I’m into lists. This is what I’m thinking so far, anyone else want to add to what we see in Noel’s story:
a) Not standing on the side of the truth, covering up the truth
b) Hindering and discouraging proper investigation to be made of incidents that by law must be reported
b) Partiality
c) Siding with and aiding offenders instead of their victims
d) Victims constantly manipulated to push everything under the carpet for the sake of allowing an offender to not face justice
e) Allowing persons accused of acts of pediphilia to be around children after accusations have been made
f) Endangering the most vulnerable and helpless, children
g) Lying and deceiving victims (for instance about court dates)
h) Being more concerned about the machine than the people
i) Shepherds who are protecting and interested only in themselves
j) Abuse of authority
If a man or woman is going to abuse their authority does it really matter what title they have? I don’t think so…
They could be called pastor/apostle/teacher/CEO/CFO/Manager/banana head…it really doesn’t matter. It’s not the title bestowed on someone that makes them abusive, it’s the lack of respect for other people that makes them abusive. IMNSHO.
London -
I agree. Though it seems that the folks who covet the “higher” titles are more prone to acts of abuse to begin with.
I like “banana-head”…I might have to add that one to my card.
London,
The problem with the Apostle title at SGM is that this “family of churches” which is what they call themselves but really it is a denomination….is not like normal families. This is one big Papa family.
A few men control it all - hundreds of church and lots of people. The apostle in Maryland tells the pastor in California to boot a person out the door - they better be airborne - or the California pastor is fired. Then SGM will have a relative from Maryland take over. I joke but this is very serious. This role is actually acted out at SGM it is not just a title.
You can slice and dice, analyze and parse the causes of spiritual abuse all you want.
Take a look at the list in my 1:25.
That pretty well covers it.
I think the modern apostlething can certainly aggravate things in such an environment. But I was in a CC where a similar atmosphere prevailed from the SGM folks, and as far as I know, CC doesn’t teach the modern apostle thing. So you can’t parse it and pin it on any one teaching.
Duo- that would be “Sr. Banana Head” wouldn’t it?
Top Banana works too.
“The story is disgusting and horrifying. The reaction of the pastors is almost as equally disgusting and horrifying.
We are Christians. We are called to represent and live for a holy God.
Things like this most certainly do NOT represent a holy God, and may just be a filthy stench in His nostrils that He will not tolerate.
Look into our lives and find sin, and tell us to yank the planks out of our eyes, before we criticize this. Fair enough. Just yank the plank out of your own eye before you do.”
WELL SPOKEN BRIAN D!!!!
Butterfly-
First of all, welcome…second…I don’t know anything about SGM so my post really wasn’t directed at that group. It was to JimB’s comment.
I, like Steve said above, have decided I don’t have the fortitude for this particular conversation right now, so really, I shouldn’t have stopped by. Except I saw JimB’s comment and decided to pipe in.
Hope you stick around. Kewl gravatar btw.
“I’m praying for a mass exodus…”
Jim:
Do you think that might have to come from mass awareness?
Well, this should be brought up in the members meeting - OH, they don’t have member’s meetings.
Listen up folks, if a church doesn’t give you a voice, don’t give them your attendance - there is a reason they don’t have meetings.
MLD,
Well put.
I will never, ever again be part of a church where the member doesn’t have a voice and a vote. Never.
Butterfly,
So glad you’re here. As others have said, please stick around!
I’m so glad you were able to hook up with a “normal” church. Any church that becomes ‘totalistic’ (where they’re the center of your life) should be avoided, IMHO.
I was absolutely shocked that it took the “senior” pastor so freakin’ long to get involved in this situation.
I’m sure the church is large but it seems totally ridiculous to me that he didn’t get personally involved in such a major situation.
And then I love how he came in at the end and said, “now we’re going to get this taken care of.”
what a travesty…
MLD & Lutheran,
Having been a part of churches without membership/voting
and now being part in a church that has membership and voting.
I see the wisdom in meetings, membership and voting combined.
and agree with both of you! (its great when we agree!)
Only being a part of the church for 3 years, still we havent seen the downside yet.
In past churches that have had meetings, but no membership,
We often saw how the pastor manipulated people to get them to agree to his way and when that didnt happen,
He later placed the hit on the board and said the “board decided to”
so He deflected the accountability and responsibility and did as he pleased anyways.
I greatly see the value in open book church administration,
open meetings where the voting has value
where you are a part of the body and the direction,
as well as being able to see where the congregation and voting stands
So far this organizational structure has been the healthiest.
Its highly doubtful we would ever go back to a non membership church
Ryan Couch,
I believe it was established in the now-over-a-thousand comments that, at the time of this crime, the church where it happened did not have a senior pastor. They had ‘other’ pastors.
They were being governed by the “head” church, maybe an hour away. This also just happens to be where the “headquarters” of the denominations resides.
They ALL knew. All the way up. So, no, a senior pastor didn’t step in for a couple years. And neither did all the apostles and bishops and pastors of the “mother” church.
Sister,
Yes it is nice to agree.
Even if the pastor doesn’t like the vote or ’strong arms’ people, at least everyone knows what is going on. The results may not be different but it was open.
And dang it, if I don’t like the color of the new carpet being discussed, at least I can say so!
Who is CJ Mahaney and Josh Harris? I know them by reputation (isn’t Harris the guy who couldn’t get a date
)
Are they the founders of the church? Is Mahaney the Pope of SGM or is he just a pastor with people over him.
As London would want to know, what does the Organizational Chart look like?
London, and Luthern: Thanks for the great welcome. I do like the site.
MLD - Thanks for the great laugh, “isn’t Harris the guy that couldn’t get at date” - too funny!
MLD - Harris took over the control of Covenant Life Church (the first and main SGM church)for CJ - who is the head of Sovereign Grace Ministries. CJ controls everything from what I understand. He would be the pope. There is no one over Him. He states he gets accountability from other SGM pastors. So, his accountability is his employees - Can anyone say, “Yes Sir”
Sis,
My experience has been that a church where there’s member voting, it’s more mundane and not as dramatic as a do-it-on-the-fly type church. But it’s much healthier for everyone involved — the process and the outcome — as your experience seems to bear out. Doesn’t mean there aren’t issues that come up, but issues will come up no matter what type of structure you’re working with.
I’m with MLD — the only thing I know about this group is the Josh Harris book on dating. It was pretty well trashed in my kids’ Lutheran youth magazine as being way too legalistic.
Sidney…ok I didn’t read the comments. I just read in the main article that the lead or senior pastor came in super late in the situation to save the day.
Butterfly,
Thanks for laughing and thanks for the info.
All I really know about CJ Mahaney was a picture someone posted in the past of him playing one on one basketball with Johnnie Mac.
Any SoCal people awake - Are there any SGM churches here in SoCal? I don’t think I have seen any signs.
Ryan how do you handle Facebook and PP at the same time?
MLD…looks like there are 3 in So-Cal
San Diego, Pasadena, and Irvine
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Churches/USMap.aspx?st=CA
According to their web site, there are only 4 SGM churches in all of California.
Bob…that’s what tabs are for. Just go back and forth
I will say that everything I’ve ever heard or read from CJ Mahaney has been really good.
I’ve listened to some of his messages and they were very good I read the book “The Cross Centered Life” and it was amazing.
Wow - what a cool thing to get perspective from people outside of SGM that haven’t been there before. It is very cool to me that the kids’ Lutheran youth magazine described Harris’s book as being way too legalistic. That is very cool that they had that kind of discernment. It is just really neat to read all of your posts. Very refreshing!
Years ago, when we homeschooled our kids, Josh Harris’ father was a big cheese. He used to speak at homeschool conventions, sold tapes, etc. We finally quit going to homeschool conventions because the whole movement seemed to be taken over by Reconstructionists. Is SGM involved in the Reconstruction movement?
Xenia,
Jim from SGMrefuge could answer that better than I. But, I can tell you that they are Calvanist to the utmost. Most of their messages share about indwelling sin, how depraved we are, and there is a huge mandate to observe and watch for other peoples sin and then to correct them; which means, tell them what their sin is, they must agree and repent, if not than their sin is pride or fear of man. So no matter what - if contronted you are - in sin. Your only hope is to humbly agree and submit to whatever their counsel is for you.
Butterfly,
Wow.
Major bummerama.
Would “sin sniffing” be appropo to describe this?
Isn’t CJ Mahaney the guy who is teaching Mark Driscoll to be humble?
Hi Everyone,
I like this website. To whomever phoenixpreacher is, well done!
As a woman who was molested as a child and never thought to tell a soul, I appreciate you posting Noel’s story here, allowing her a voice on your board.
I am Stunned. I was in an SGM church for 15 years. I deeply loved, and was committed to my church family.
I thought I’d introduce myself so I could answer Lutheran’s answers about “sin sniffing”. Good guess, but to many of us there it was talked about as the “Sin Police”, though I sort of think “the Sin Gestapo” is more accurate.
Well, good night and God bless,
Stunned
Hi stunned, welcome to Phoenix Preacher!
Dave, yes.
Stunned and I were in the same church and had experiences with the same big cheese.
If you are told you are in sin the *only* proper response is to agree with the assessment and repent. I once was with a group of pastor’s wives who were relating how frustrating their toddlers were. They started telling one another how many times they spanked their toddlers the previous day. One, in particular, told the group she must have spanked (with a rod, mind you,) 40 times that day.
I was flabergasted so I sort of spouted out (before I had the sense to keep quiet,) 40 times in one day? and they all looked at me like, “Of course.” and I said, “If I spanked my kid 40 times/day it would be what that day was about and I, personally, would ask myself what I was doing wrong instead of spending my day hitting a toddler.”
Of course I got confronted.
And I said I would take their council under prayerful consideration. (which sort of stunned them,) but they assigned a pit bull (in the form of our care group leader’s wife,) to harass me until I went to the pastor’s wife and apologized.
After about two weeks, I finally went and apologized. Anne-style (if you know what I mean.)
We were eventually disfellowshipped (or, as I like to put it, dismembered.)
The fear, it is real. Those of you who have never been involved with SGM may not understand, but I *still* have bouts of fear as a result of being vocal about the abuses in SGM. As I type, I have waves of fear. And the leadership couldn’t be more arrogant. Months after we weere dismembered, one of the pastors actually called up my husband and ordered us not to discuss our circumstances with anyone. Can you believe that one?
And I was in our new church and there have been several instances to contrast the two environments. Our family was invited to the pastor’s house for lunch.
I lived in a state of panic for the entire week. In the SGM church, an invitation for lunch by the care group leader of, horrors, the pastors only meant they had some sin to point out and a bout of repentence and humbling, etc. Well, the new pastor and his wife only wanted to share a meal with us. No agenda! As we were driving home, I was so relieved, dh and I couldn’t believe we just had lunch and pleasent conversation with a pastor.
That is what normal healthy people do. Imagine that!
DB, I can concur with the fear thing. I say I am fearless and I will speak out, but even now I can relate to the waves of fear coming whenever I speak out know that someone from SGM who knows me (or not) will be aiming their condemnation and hate at me. I guess when I say I’m fearless, I mean fear will neither stop me from speaking out the truth or stop me from enjoying God now that I finally know who he really is!
And since we personally did not experience the same levels of horror as some others at the hands of SGM pastors/leaders, I have taken it upon myself to speak out for the ones that either are too young or too afraid to speak for themselves.
God has heard our many prayers, he is answering even now…mercy will triumph judgement.
Again this morning coming in and just listening….praying for all of you. Praying for protection and guidance and strength. Praying for the children. Praying for the leaders that the Spirit would convict and bring repentance.
Thank you.
Just to clarify, I am generally extroverted and opinionated.
I am not a timid fearful person.
I have petitioned senators, skied glaciers in British Columbia, I have taken intimidating classes as a middle-aged student. I do not shy away from challenges or adventures.
But yet, the waves of fear.
DB…may our God wash over you waves of compassion that bring peace and strength and cast out the fear.
DB, thanks for the story, this is exactly the type of thing that many of us have experienced in “tightly run” churches.
Even a genuinely Christian organization can be cult-like, and the attempts to “enforce” what is considered “righteousness”, such as what you describe so well, do not of course enforce righteousness, but they do create a climate in which for many the only reasonable solution is to leave.
This is what happens when authority is given to those who are not yet mature enough to exercise it lovingly. I have been both perpetrator and victim!
But thanks be to GOd that if we continue to show up we will grow up.
Thanks for showing up here.
Providing a forum for this sort of sharing is PP at its best.
Skiplink, You are correct in your post..good behavior is not always righteousness. Good behavior can be fear, manipulation, control, longing for acceptance. Good behavior does not make one righteous -
We actually had a leader at SGM that would ask people when he saw them, “How is your behavior”…
I wish I had thought to say, “nailed to the cross”…how is yours?
Someone earlier (Dave Rolph) mentioned that he’d enjoyed CJ Mahaney’s messages and books.
This is a really important point.
As moderator of the survivors blog, I’ve sometimes felt like I live in a parallel universe. Among those who have heard of them, the general opinion out there about SGM is very good right now. SGM’s in-house music is sort of “up and coming.” CJ Mahaney can be a very dramatic and entertaining speaker. CJ’s books have impacted people. Both CJ and Josh Harris come across as well-spoken nice guys in interviews.
Yet I’ve heard all these stories. How can this be? How can both be true?
I finally realized that these two very different sets of facts could both be true at the same time.
Please note that NO ONE is saying that CJ can’t preach a good sermon or write a good book. He obviously can…and that’s one of the reasons why the “survivors” who were mistreated stuck it out for as long as they did.
I would respectfully submit, though, that in at least SOME of Mahaney’s teachings, he engages in at least some of the redefinition of terms that I mentioned in a previous comment. This is not evident to most people outside of SGM or anyone not attuned to hearing it.
Also, I think it was Butterfly who said that SGM is “Calvinist to the extreme,” or something like that.
I’d say that that depends on how you define Calvinist. SGM thinks they’re “Reformed” in doctrine. But they’ve only picked out certain Reformed elements. They definitely believe in indwelling sin. But the concept of election? Well, all the true Calvinists I’ve ever known were able to have peace in their walk with God because the concept of election - that they could know without a doubt that they were one of the chosen - sort of counter-balanced all the talk of the indwelling sin and the total depravity.
Within SGM, election is mentioned, but no one really believes in the reassuring aspects of it. We have VERY RECENT stories (as in within the past few months) of a SGM area leader calling into question the salvation of a teenaged boy, a pastor’s son, in a semi-public meeting, because the kid hasn’t been very demonstrative about his faith. Mind you - it’s not because the kid is radically badly behaved, beyond perhaps some typical teenaged sullenness and angst. It’s just because he hasn’t yet begun talking a lot about his faith and throwing his hands up in the air during worship time. The sad thing is that I am fairly certain (I don’t know positively, but I am fairly certain) that this kid HAS at points professed faith in Christ. In every other truly Reformed situation, that would mean that he was “in.” But in SGM, it seems that they aren’t real sure about that.
So I’d say that SGM’s brand of Calvinism (”Reformed-ness”) is much more along the lines of Puritanism.
Good morning and welcome all,
I am lifting up in prayer all those stuck in the SGM “church”. Church is supposed to be a place of love and fellowship. To hear that this is so rampant still really blows my socks off. My mother’s family was polygamist Mormon, from the same area as the wonderful Mr. Jeffs I might add, and as a kid growing up when we went to visit it seemed so wonderful and loving. It was only later that my mom began to relate the stories of the abuses that she had witnessed/endured in the name of “Christ”. The fine leadership folks at SGM sound oh so familiar.
Skip,
Good morning - “Even a genuinely Christian organization can be cult-like,”
Why do we qualify it, why don’t we just label them as a cult? Cult has nothing to do with religious affiliation but with behavior of the group and the leader. You can have religious cults and you can have non religious cults.
Hence, let me be the first - based on what I have heard here to declare SGM a cult. Now it’s in the open.
Living the Cross-Centered Life is a book that has some very great points, but it’s also a book where C.J. redefines legalism in a way that allows him to be legalistic and deny the accusation, if he wants (”Legalistic? Not me. Legalism is this, this and this”).
I hear these stories and my heart is broken, because God’s people are hurt and frightened of an institution they should NEVER be hurt by or frightened of, and the risk is run of the Son of God and Lord of all coming off like a hateful, spiteful tyrant because of his people…not to mention the work of the enemy in this and many other situations.
Maybe this is why “revival” doesn’t come to America…
MLD
Good point! If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck………………
Bob,
It sounds simple. If someone were to say to me “hey I went to this SGM church the other day, do you know anything about them?” The proper reply would be “They are a cult, watch out.”
Out for my walk!
Kris,
“I finally realized that these two very different set of facts could both be true at the same time.”
Well said! After having been part of a church that has gotten off track with no consistent method in place to address problems in my view their good side is what makes them so dangerous. If they didn’t have a good side there would be few if any who would attend and support these ministries. The better the good side … the teaching/music/outreach … whatever… the more potentially dangerous it could be … more people will flock there and trust & support it more completely. People more fully support, stay longer and put up with much in a place where much good is done. Add the fact that our church and church friends become much like home & family … closer at times. It’s a very hard thing to leave ones church especially knowing how those who left before us were so easily ignored/forgotten as long as the seats filled up again. They were treated as the problem and now here you are in that same place … confused and hurting. That kind of manipulation is strong.
That being said I believe there are some in leadership positions who honestly don’t believe they are manipulating in a bad way. Or maybe better said … part of a manipulating process. They are focused on the good and miss the flip side that is so potentially dangerous to so many. In my understanding it’s dangerous for those on both side of leadership. If there is no means in place to properly handle problems when they arise then there is no end to the ways that those ministries could get off track. Noel’s story is a clear example of just how off things can become … sad to the point of sickening.
I think I may join Jim in his prayer for a mass exodus. Still I will continue to pray that those at the top who are in position to correct this destructive and growing problem will do so … those in-between as well. Maybe that is God’s plan … everyone is to do what they can … work as a body.
Praying for those of you that have been hurt in your churches. Don’t let any man ( or woman) keep you from Jesus. He will never disappoint you. Praying you find a place of fellowship where you will e embraced by grace and truth in Jesus Christ.
Don’t give up.
Welcome here and much love to you!
Thank you everyone for sharing. This is well, amazing.
I have a comment about the books –
There are so many books in Christian circles that aren’t even written by the ‘author.’ They’re ghostwritten, often. Christian
book publishing is no different from secular book publishing — same pressures to make a profit, etc.
What happens is that someone from a church or fellowship or certain denom. or whatever writes a book. Everyone comes away thinking, “Gosh, they’re together, “Gosh, they really have a close walk with God,” or whatever. In fact, an attractive book can be a PR tool for a dysfunctional person or church or denom. or whatever.
I have no idea about the SGM authors. That isn’t even my point.
A book is not reality.
Be discerning. Don’t be fooled.
“There are so many books in Christian circles that aren’t even written by the ‘author.’ They’re ghostwritten, often. Christian
book publishing is no different from secular book publishing — same pressures to make a profit, etc.”
I second that. Christian publishing is a *business*…and other than its content, it varies very little from any other book publisher. To find a “big name” author who actually does the majority of their own writing is pretty rare.
Didn’t we hear that about some of Chuck Smith’s books when something in them was in question? Or was that just books that he endorsed?
Nancy -
I personally don’t have much insight into TWFT’s publishing…it’s a different animal than Tyndale, Zondervan, Thomas Nelson, etc. From my understanding, most of Pastor Chuck’s books are adaptions of some of his sermon series. But that’s just hearsay - Dave Rolph or one of the other guys might be better suited to answer that.
Nancy, it was one of Chuck’s books. Chuck Jr. had inserted some emergent thoughts into it prior to publication.
Tim,
I work at The Word For Today.
Chuck’s books are taken from transcripts of his sermon messages. Those are cleaned up by the writer then submitted to Chuck for review.
Once approved by Chuck, the books are released to market.
Well, there you go then. Thank, AB!
Captain,
Yep, those insertions slipped through the cracks and created quite a stir.
After that policies were put into place to insure that won’t happen again.
Captain,
Not to let The Word For Today off the hook, but the book in question (When Storms Come) was a collaborative effort with Thomas Nelson Publishers.
The problems occurred because the book was “fast tracked”. Everyone wanted it out right away to bring encouragement to Katrina survivors, so some steps in the proofing process were missed.
We at The Word For Today take full responsibility for this, and once the errors were noted the book was recalled and pulled from it’s distribution channels.
Thanks Tim … if memory serves … I think it has been said that CS hasn’t even read all the books that have his seal of approval so to speak. Not sure if that includes those that state him as the actual author. Either way … if true … always found that to be odd because even as a very little known artist … even I don’t put my name on something without much scrutiny. And … that’s just artwork for enjoyment … not written word that so many people look to for spiritual guidance. Now to allow my name to be placed on another’s work … yikes … that’s another animal and seems even more odd to me. Not good practice in my view. If the stated author of the work isn’t even the truth … why trust what it says?
AB,
Yeah, there is a new policy that someone is actually going to read them?
A slick modern Puritanism blended with a dysfunctional “shepherding movement” foundation and I say DANGER.
Yes, I have read some books. Looked into SGM for myself a year and a half ago. Downloaded lot of ministry material. Good stuff in terms of it’s theological content on the surface; can make it my own without being a part of SGM.
But I have to follow and apply this for myself and in looking to others: Jesus said “I know your works”, not “I have read your books”.
Nancy -
What you’re probably remembering is a discussion between myself & RAbanes concerning Chuck’s approval of a book that was condemning the “Purpose Driven Life.” Richard was arguing that since PC had a radio program interviewing the author & was having the author speak at CCCM that night, that inferred that PC endorsed every line/inference in the book itself.
I made the point (having worked in Christian radio programming for years with a major speaker/author) that PC may have been only vaguely familiar with the book, as he was interviewing the author. In my experience, these books are given to a program’s host a few days in advance, where they have time to review it & are given a written list of the highlights. So whereas PC might have read the book, it didn’t mean that he knew every line, nor did it mean every word in the book have his endorsement.
The discussion went on from there - but I think that’s probably what you’re remembering.
“A book is not reality.
Be discerning. Don’t be fooled.”
Lutheran, I agree. Like all of you, I enjoy a good read. I have my favorite authors, and own every book that some have written. But the book does not make the person. Words can be cheap. Putting thoughts on paper does not always mean those thoughts are embedded in the heart of the author. For instance, I have listened to great teachings from the pulpit by men who were far from living what they were teaching.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not expecting perfect from pastors or writers. When I stood before people as a pastor, what I taught was as much for me as is was for them. I believed that I could not ask from my people anything that I would not require of myself. I’m speaking about those who teach and write things that are contrary to the very way they choose to live.
When John Stott writes a book he lays his cards on the table. He thanks by name his secretary, his current research associate,and his editor(s) official and unofficial.
He also interacts with others who have written things in agreement with or differing in their outlook in order to state his point as he also interacts with the Word.
Hey, don’t they teach this to everybody in school.
Nancy,
In the case of the Word For Today, the source material wasn’t another authors.
Again, the content was entirely taken from Chuck’s own sermon transcripts.
Chuck doesn’t consider himself a good writer in the sense of proper organization of material for content flow, proper grammar, spelling, and maximum clarity (speaking and writing are not the same thing), so he has selected writers assist him.
Even after that, Chuck is supposed to read the final draft before printing (Thanks Dave!) to make sure the book accurately reflects his views and what he was communicating in his sermon content.
The case of Chuck Jr.’s involvement with the afore mentioned book was the exception rather than the rule.
Thanks again Tim … I do remember that but not just in that case … if memory serves … it’s come up in other cases as well. Always found it an odd thing. Guess I went to the same kind of school as Vic.
Bob,
“Putting thoughts on paper does not always mean those thoughts are embedded in the heart of the author.”
Amen Bob.
I have seen things in Chuck’s books that reflect that.
In his latest end times book, he comes dangerously close to espousing a partial rapture theory ( the idea that carnal christians will be left behind).
Yet if you pressed Chuck on this, he would probably say that only unbelievers will be left and that a carnal lifestyle could indicate a heart of unbelief and that self examination would be in order to see if one was truly in the faith as opposed to deceiving themselves.
AB,
I get that part … not everyone is a writer that has something important to say. But … I still think it’s odd even if it’s an exception and not the rule to put ones name on something without carefully making sure you agree with it. Didn’t this come up with the old Larry Taylor books as well? If memory serves … the defense that CS didn’t really read the books even though they had his seal of approval written in them? It’s been awhile but I remember that being brought up at that point as well. CS is too busy to read all the stuff that has his name attached and all …
Sorry for the rabbit trail all … my questioning brain was just being overactive again.
AB. Do we not own our own words? If Jesus said we would give account for our idle words should we not be accountable for our written words?
Chuck came dangerously close to espousing a partial rapture decades ago. My english teachers made me rewrite in order to clarify my thoughts.
Well said Vic!
Vic,
Yes, we are to own our words.
As far as TWFT is concerned, I think he tries to do just that.
As has been pointed out, mistakes have been made by TWFT, and I’m sure Chuck would admit to making them also.
Vic, you have heard Chuck preach long enough to know that Chuck would be the last person to advocate taking all his words as absolute truth. They are just his thoughts and are to be evaluated Biblically.
That burden lies with the individual believer. I’m sure Chuck has no interest in spoon feeding people who are too lazy to rightfully divide the word of truth for themselves.
PC has always hinted at a partial rapture and when pressed he still does. But he should probably include in his books a statement that says, “AB and some other scholars disagree with me on this.”
wait a minute………………..
I’m with Vic on this one. When you put it in print, it is an endorsement, a statement of faith and not something that you throw out there arbitrarily without being responsible for your remarks. Do you really think people are going to purchase books on doctrine and faith if they don’t consider the information true and the author trustworthy and reliable?
If there’s anyone who is in the Minneapolis area, or can get to Minneapolis, the first week in February and can take off work to see the Desiring God Conference…
Tony Morgan is giving away 2 tickets at http://www.tonymorganlive.com
and Carlos Whittaker is doing the same at http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/01/bruised-by-some-good-teaching-giveaway/
AB, how does your defense of the mindset of Chuck square with Paul’s admonition to Timothy to take heed to yourself and to the doctrine.
Are pastors called to let the people of God figure out doctrine for themselves? Doctrine needs to be stated clearly and defined and supported accurately and owned personally by those who espouse it.
As much as the “Be a berean” is tagged onto a sermon like the fine print on a contract, it should be followed with a “I need to be like a Timothy.”
LOL Dave!
I don’t think anyone considers me a serious scholar though! Not even me!
We both know that Chuck will never, NEVER grant any assurances to wayward believers who seem content to persist in their sins.
I think he enjoys being vague on this issue for that very reason. But I trust you on this since I know you know Chuck well.
Here’s a recent exchange between C.J. Maheny and James McDonald at a Pastor’s conference. I find it very interesting…
http://blog.harvestbiblefellowship.org/?p=1138
“PC has always hinted at a partial rapture and when pressed he still does.”
That’s a news flash.
I thought Chuck was very straight forward with me years ago when I called him on TEMA and asked him this very question regarding the partial rapture………………….
BrianD,
I am waiting for them to give away Super Bowl tickets. I don’t want to waste my luck on conference tickets.
Vic and Centy
All I’m saying is that Chuck has no Papal infallibility.
Of course he believes his teachings and perspectives have solid Biblical backing or he wouldn’t make them.
I don’t think we are disagreeing here.
PJ, interesting in a good way or not so good way?
Chuck doesn’t want to give false assurance to anyone who isn’t walking in fellowship with the Lord. He leaves a lot of possibilities open in that regard, in the area of who gets raptured and in the area of losing your salvation. He doesn’t want to be as dogmatic as say a John MacArthur, who basically thinks most professing Evangelicals are going to hell, and he doesn’t want to give false assurance to someone who could potentially be in danger. Nebulous on purpose, and a case could be made that God does the same thing in the Bible.
‘Do you really think people are going to purchase books on doctrine and faith if they don’t consider the information true and the author trustworthy and reliable?’
Are you kidding?
It’s done all the time.
Every Christian writer should be like Rev. Stott, and acknowledge everyone who helped him. He’s one guy that writes his own. It’s
obvious. You can tell.
Partial rapture? What is that? Part of your body goes up and part stays on earth?
Brian,
I find it interesting in a good way. It beats shop talk about lighting, sound systems, fund raisers, or attendance boosters.
“John MacArthur, who basically thinks most professing Evangelicals are going to hell”
Dave, lol! Grace to You!
…and I think that exchange gives us some real insight to where Mahaney, at least, is coming from.
I thought Mahaney’s statement about his own sin is kind of strange. McDonald seemed more honest. I would want to give CJ the benefit of the doubt so I’ll hold back my gut feeling on this one. But you have to wonder, don’t you, about someone who specializes in humility?
“But you have to wonder, don’t you, about someone who specializes in humility?”
LOL…………. yeah, I do. and I stopped believing in Santa Claus when I was five ……
PJ,
I watched the clip and am now listening to his lecture at the conference as the clip was short.
What I am looking for is this - does he allow his church peeps be the worst sinner that they know and offer them Christ’s unconditional forgiveness?
I will report back.
I’d like to ask CJ’s neighbors how humble they think he is…
Dave, Vic, and Centy and others.
It wasn’t my point to get into a discussion of Chuck’s views on partial rapture.
Apparently TWFT has done well in reflecting that properly.
That was probably a poor choice on my part to point out that things in print may not always clearly reflect what the author believes, as Bob alluded to.
I’m busy, so I’ll back out of this discussion.
Let me close on this.
We at the Word For Today are really trying to accurately represent what Chuck teaches on various subjects. Sometimes we have failed at this, most times succeeded.
Please pray for us as we endeavor to do this.
Lemme see ….
One minute into listening to the interview on the clip Rolph posted was enough to make me suicidal… not really…but there is just way too much self contemplation for me.
Incipient in a conversation like that is the humility of my self-abasement.
Those guys wore me out ….
I am going to agree with CJ… he’s definitely the worst sinner…there he wins… we can now change the subject.
Chief Sinner Dread
oops I guess that was posted by Peter John
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the children of God… I Jn 3:1
I think I will focus on that bit of the equation… He is the lifter of my head.
People who lower their head from the camera and insist on their sinfulness creep me out….
Love Child Dread
This is starting to make sense. If I say that I am the worst sinner there is, and everyone else plays along and says they are the worst sinner there is, we are all even and everything is fair. But as soon as someone doesn’t play along, and they say, “Hey wait a minute! This guy who forcibly raped my three year old girl is worse than I am” and the fearless leader has to say, “No, you need to see yourself as the worst. Go repent.” The house of cards, that is built on pretending and old school puritan self-loathing has now been upset, and the worst person is now the one who points out that the emperor has no clothes. We must exclude them. They have upset our balance where we all pretend we are the worst, knowing secretly that we are the best at being the worst. Fascinating study in manipulation and abnormal psychology. Remember how humble Jim Jones was? (Not meaning to imply that CJ is the next Jim Jones. Just that the same psychological manipulation is going on, probably unintentionally.)
Dread,
You are absolutely right. And when someone says “I am the worst” their greatest fear is that someone will agree with them.
Dave,
Perhaps true humility would be owning the truth.
Things like I am a great artist and scholar!
AB, will pray for you my friend. BTW. I wanted to mention that I took my “former” CSN black polo, washed and dried and hung it up nicely in order to proudly wear it.
I always liked the logo and now I can just tell people that a graphic artist friend had an inspired idea and designed the logo.
So what of Paul’s confession that he was the chief of sinners?
…and Isaiah saying, “Woe is me. I am undone and a man of unclean lips”.
PJ: Both confessions came about in comparison to and in the light of the presence of Jesus who justifies and cleanses those He convicts.
Peter-John
You know full well what Paul’s confession was… it was his exhortation that if he could be saved anyone could be saved.
It was not his hand wringing self loathing way of life…which I do not think he had
Isaiah’s woe is me was his call and submission to God. We all have had the moment or the season of being cut to the heart
Grace is when someone forgives you and does not spend the rest of their life reminding you of their benevolence.
God forgives us and elevates us to sonship
Dread,
I see what you are saying. False humility is such subtle thing isn’t it? Even deprecating yourself is a way of exalting yourself in everyone’s eyes. Yuck!
Maybe the most humble thing to do is to confess to being prideful, putting self first, being self-centered, self-serving, and even self-effacing for show. Maybe its not about realizing how horrible my sin is but rather about how little concerned I am about the sinfulness of my sin.
We had a couple leave our church once after sending me an email accusing me of being prideful. How do you humbly deny being prideful? I wrote them back and agreed with them, and told them that I am also a failure in many other areas of my life at times. They still left, but we remain friends.
Vic,
Right. The standard is the guy who raped the three year old. It’s not CJ or you or me. The standard is Christ. Does that then not make each of us the chief of sinners?
Terrible typo: the standard is NOT the guy who raped the three year old.
BrianD,
When you go to the Desiring God Conference, could you please ask Mark Dever and John Piper to address what we are hearing about SGM? I mean, it sounds like a pervasive, longterm problem of crime and cover-up…add to that the declaration that Martin Luther’s Disciple made, based on what he has read here, that SGM is a cult.
You’ll probably find CJ Mahaney trolling around there too. Maybe you could ask him to, once and for all, PLEASE cause significant and major reform in his ministry, beginning with integrity and living under the law when it comes to child molestation, abuse and rape?
Thanks!
Sidney
AB,
I will pray for you and the others who are attempting to put into print CS views. I have thought for some time now that the task before you and the others is a very difficult one. I started thinking that back when Larry Taylor’s books written while he was part of CC were being discussed. Seems to me that CS may use vagueness as a tool for good but in doing so he may also be leaving too many doors open for mistakes to be made in not only documenting his teachings but also in applying them.
JimB
Good response to a bad situation…
I have had similar moments… someone accuses me and I know that I am not guilty of their charge but am guilty of worse things.
Glad they left in peace
Paul’s statement about being the chief of sinners was in the context of his past life, as a murderer of Christians. A couple of verses prior, in the same context, he says Jesus “has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry.”
Comparing ourselves among ourselves is something Jesus told us not to do, but if you do it anyway, and say you are worse than anyone else, you’d better be prepared for people to agree with you, instead of piously saying, “Oh no brother. I am worse than you.”
Oh darn the whole thing anyway. Like Dread said, it’s all too introspective. I’ve got more important things on my plate than analyzing my own depravity all day today. “Why sit we here until we die?”. Peace…
I would also add that Jesus and/or the Father reserves the right to exercise direct corrective and/or maturing discipline towards those He has justified and cleansed or He will also choose to use indirect means such as consequences that can follow our actions.
I am pretty sure that Rolph and JimB and A Believer and such all make me look pretty good…
Yes I am a rat but compared to THOSE GUYS….
Saint Dread
Peace to you Peter-John
Good to see you rise again…
Grave Digger Dread
hi family
I think a clearer understanding of the Reformed view is in order. Much of it is not false humility but an understanding of human depravity. That even our repenting needs repenting of. We need to ask forgiveness for even the way we ask for forgiveness. That’s the idea. We are chalk full of self deceit, false humility, and ulterior motives. Tim Keller, Mahaney, and even Mark Driscoll all would espouse that.
To put it in that context gives these Reformed guys like Mahaney much more of a benefit of the doubt.
Dread,
PJ,
Perhaps the apostle Paul was simply alluding to the fact that he had murdered christians.
Do we not generally consider murder to be the chiefest of sins?
In one sense all sins are equal, but in another they are not.
I’m just thinking out loud here.
-truthfully only a little bit of scholar Believer
Boy, I feel a bit awkward here saying this, but I never took Pastor Chuck’s writings to be the final word - but more the thoughts from a pastor/teacher’s perspective.
I don’t think I ever read one of his books thinking that he had done the heavy lifting, as a trained theologian would do. I think his books should be used as the starting point to further study, before jumping into some seminary professor’s 4 volume treatment of Christian doctrine.
If he is fuzzy in some areas, those points should become clearer as we move on.
If there is one thing that I have learned in discussing this issue over the years with John and Dave is that Pastor Chuck has his limitations and does the best with what he has. The problem is with people who go no further than what Chuck writes.
The above statement is in line with my New Year’s resolution to be kind and considerate - how am I doing?
if we are cleaning the temple….again…we should have the right tools…
http://www.surplusandadventure.com/images/product/main/knee_pads_black.jpg
these are for Nomans
http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smap/images/item/n/08a/ux_a08012600ux0003_ux_n.jpg
It is funny how people who have been indoctrinated in this self-loathing, false humility thing always quote Paul’s statement that he was a chief sinner (out of context, ignoring the reference to persecuting the church) but then they fail to mention Paul saying that he wasn’t inferior to any of the other apostles, that he was more dedicated than any others, and that he was blameless as far as the Law was concerned. One verse where Paul says he is the chief sinner, and chapters where he compares himself favorably to the other apostles. How convenient.
As George Burns once said, “The most important thing in life is sincerity. If you can fake that, you’ve got it made.”
Hi Dusty!
Jim B: “I’d like to know if CJ’s neighbors think he’s humble.”
I’ve heard that his neighbors all go to his church.
MLD,
You almost had me fooled there for a second.
hi nancy…you have been missed a lot…so good to see you.
Pete,
You are fooling yourself. Don’t think for a second that these guys you mentioned don’t think they are better than you are. And for the record, I think you are better than any of them.
mld…………
I thought some one else had stolen your moniker and gravitar…. you’re doing well………… lol
…better looking maybe.
Rolph, LOL.
Dave,
of the doctrinal positions now, I wouldn’t have been in a position to look at other, and perhaps deeper teachings without that base.
As you know, my whole Christian foundation was built on the teachings of Chuck and Greg Laurie. Even though I may disagree with a few
I am grateful for that.
“As George Burns once said, “The most important thing in life is sincerity. If you can fake that, you’ve got it made.””
Gotta love that…
Now that would take true humilty. To admit at a pastor’s conference, “Yes, I think I’m better than you. Better in my teaching ability, better in my administrative skills, better as a people person, better in general. And I am sorry that I feel that way”. Wow!
Pete,
Come on, we all think it. What if we just cut the crap and admitted it?
PJ said, “And I am sorry that I feel that way””
Shouldn’t it say, “And I am sorry if you…” Isn’t that how all apologies should start?
Thanks Dusty … I really missed being part of PP. Usually my life is just too full of many things I have to do but today I have a cold and am attempting to keep my germs to myself. The upstairs hallway that doubles as my office is one of the only places I can be without sneezing on everyone. So here I am … yeah!!!
MLD,
I understand and appreciate that. And I have to say, you make Lutheranism look better than anyone I know. Seriously, you are in a really healthy place with the Lord, and the church.
Rolph,
I think it depends on the pastor’s conference you go to.
At “Preach the Word” at Greg Laurie’s church, listening to Swindoll, Greg, Bob Coy, John MacArthur, James McDonald, Jack Graham, and others I can tell you I was NOT feeling that way! Quite the opposite, I drove home feeling almost defeated.
MLD,
“The problem is with people who go no further than what Chuck writes.”
Right on the money!
Dave,
Your 11:30 is right on target. In my opinion, being humble is speaking truthfully about yourself in comparing yourself to others and to God’s standards.
A real danger to making truthful statements about ourselves in comparison to others is we usually lack the complete data to make those assessments accurately.
Whereas I think we can all agree that all of us fall far short of God’s standards to varying degrees. but even determining that degree is questionable in my opinion. Especially in light of this comment by Paul.
1 Corinthians 4:2-5
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Dusty,
You’re getting it. LOL
Dave and Centy
Thought I would let you know that Neil Diamond is in Bakersfield tonight. I’m sure he will sing Shilo.
so pete…..are you saying it’s not worth the price of the cds?? I really wanted to go to that conference, but could not justify the expense
Bob, are you going?…… who is the opening act?
The best apology I have ever heard was from Todd Johnson…very humble, warm and heartfelt…we all could take lessons from him.
Someone told me once that a couple had come up to a pastor we all know and love after a church service one night and was knit-picking him about his life and sins, and such, and that he said to them, “If you knew half of the truth about me you wouldn’t even come to this church.”
Centy
I’m not going. I’ve been to four of his concerts and nothing has come close to his Greek Theater Hot August Night Concert in the early 70’s. Someone my age shouldn’t be on a stage trying to act like they’re 30.
Dusty
Todd is the real deal. I worshiped at his church during Christmas break. He is doing a great job.
so, I guess I’ll forget that image of Bob Sweat screaming with a lighter in his hand…………….
Nancytheoverworked, I am sorry you are sick…but glad that we get to visit with you when you are.
Pete,
I had the same feeling after Preach the Word. Thank God for our conferences.
Dusty and Bob. Todd Johnson. Amen. Without guile.
hey Bob!! it’s 50 degrees here. gotta go into town in a bit. think I’ll take the bike…….8)
Todd Johnson is better than CJ Mahaney.
The guilt and smallness that you Pastors feel after going to one of those Mega Pastor conferences, is how I feel when I listen to Dave Ramsey talk about business and finance
CJ is about as humble as Paris Hilton is chaste. The man pontificates (excuse the pun,) about humility in order to justify the sin-sniffing finger-wagging that is his speciality.
To the best of my knowledge, the man has never actually responded to a specific situation by humbling himseslf, apologizing, seeking forgiveness, and restoring himself to his brother or sister.
No, he’s the Pope of SGM and he has his Pastors to insulate him against the accusations of rabble like me.
Hey, CJ, if you googled your name and hit paydirt here, this is a perfect opportunity to prove me wrong; go to Noel, apologize to her, make things right with her family and, for God’s sake, do something to protect children in your family of churches from predators.
Hint-hint, getting rid of the draconian parenting teaching would also keep the little ones from being such easy targets for perverts.
Not being so patriarchal would keep the males from tinking they have some innate privilege. Establishing a policy of zero tolerence for covering up a rape and turning on the victim would be a grand gesture.
Bob,
Neil Diamond creeps me out big time! An old guy like that singing “Girl, you’ll be a woman soon…” Yuck!
Who is Todd Johnson?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwbzfUmIg4I
almost as bad as listening to Neil Young sing anything these days….
however….. Neil Yound is better than Neil Diamond….
Dave……………I knew bring his name up would get you!
Bob,
I’ll bet Nomans is trying to charter a jet right now for Bakersfield!!!
Thanks again Dusty. I really don’t feel too bad … I don’t get real sick often because I put my years in working with germs … I mean children.
I was a teacher for years and like most teachers cold be used to make vaccines. 
The problem is even though this cold isn’t making me very sick I have learned that those in this house that I pass it onto get things much worse. One has celebrated many Birthdays, one only one birthday and another isn’t too old or too young to handle the common cold but is an asthmatic … doesn’t mix well with colds. Better for all if I hang out in the hallway a bit.
Centy,
Don’t you dare blaspheme Neil Young!
Neil Yound?
http://www.classmates.com/directory/public/memberprofile/list.htm?regId=8682050057
Man, I need to get out more!
nancy, keeping your girls safe from your cold is probably the only time you get to rest.
nancy,
“I don’t get real sick often because I put my years in working with germs … I mean children.”
That’s how I look at my time with the grandkids - I call them the Germinators!
ok Dave.
but i wonder if Neil Young will do a re-release of “Old Man”?
maybe he’ll call it “Young Man”…..
“young man take a look at my life, I’m a lot like you…”
OK,
I listened to Mahaney’s hour long talk at MacDonald conference. Not harmful.
However, he kept going back to a point “how am I aware that God is working in your life?” and he kept going back to behavior identified as the fruit of the spirit.
I would have liked to hear him say, at least once, to give some comfort to people, “we know that God is working in your life because He promised to work in your life.”
My concern is that the message was to pastors who will now probably miss that point.
Sidney,
I said nothing about going to the conference.
All I did was post links to two bloggers offering free tickets to their readers.
Hey…
Anyone have a jet I could borrow?
The sad thing is that men are traveling the super apostle/communicator circuit gaining letters of commendation from each other and subtly redefining the God ordained role of shepherding the flock.
This way they are retaining the tile of pastor in the eyes of the public while abdicating the responsibility.
Marginalize the ministry and you easily manipulate the people.
Will or could God bring revival with our present mega church structure and culture intact?
DB,
“To the best of my knowledge, the man has never actually responded to a specific situation by humbling himseslf, apologizing, seeking forgiveness, and restoring himself to his brother or sister.”
What is the response of those who serve under him as to why that is? I ask because the subject of not apologizing also came up when discussing CC. I’m wondering if the same kinds of reasons are stated. I even ran into a form of it first hand. The abusive CC pastor I served under seems to believe he shouldn’t apologize because Chuck Smith doesn’t apologize. Oh … that reminds me … there’s another one of those vagueness things where CS is hard to nail down.
MLD, if you want to hear some of SGM’s more harmful teaching, I would check the church websites, I can even recommend some to you if you like, or some of the other ex-sgmer’s here could. They will be on pretty good behaviour when out in the real world, or at least a different bubble…
BrianD,
Too bad. Well, if you know of anyone who is going, could you please pass on that message?
Then, ask them to slide on over to http://www.sgmsurvivors.com and post their response?
Thanks. Nobody connected to SGM in any way seems to know the answers.
Vic,
“Will or could God bring revival with our present mega church structure and culture intact?”
As to will God … I would say probably not. Could be why we are starting to see so many cracks developing in both.
Nancy,
I don’t know who your pastor was but I have seen Chuck apologize and say he was wrong many times. Anyone who has been around him for any length of time would never say something like that.
Dave,
Absolutely correct about Chuck Smith….ooh, and thanks for sticking up for me.
Neil
After watching the link PJ posted, perhaps some of the SGM survivors may feel CJ Mahaney using “I’m ’sorry’” would only be appropriate if it was being used as a self-deprecating adjective.
Dave,
The pastor I speak of was part of CCCM. During the time I was at that church he considered CS his pastor. That being said he still could have misunderstood CS’s views on apologizing. That’s why I starting asking others.
Over the years on PP I have asked many including yourself if they have ever heard CS apologize and only you and I believe Oden said they had. If I am remembering correctly … most without question said they hadn’t. I don’t think it’s something I would have forgotten because it has been a very confusing thing even to this day for me to reconcile. I didn’t mean to imply that no one has ever heard CS apologize. If it sounded that way I’m very sorry. The point is apologizing doesn’t seem to be something many people have witness CS do. In addition to that it appears he hasn’t been willing to make many visible corrections. I believe not being willing … or taking the time … or thinking he should for one reason or another … whatever … to make corrections is causing a great deal of harm and a big part of the root of what is causing struggles within CC and possibly SGM as well. That’s why I asked the question. It has been my question for years really because I believe it may be at the root of why CC will not make the necessary corrections to stop the abuse in some of the churches that are under it’s banner.
I believe CS’s vagueness in this area … or possible conflicting teaching … whatever … has left an open door for great harm. If only those very close to him … a select few … or less .. are the only ones who have any evidence of him apologizing it can and in my view has led to trouble.
“I believe not being willing … or taking the time … or thinking he should for one reason or another … whatever … to make corrections is causing a great deal of harm and a big part of the root of what is causing struggles within CC and possibly SGM as well”
Nancy,
You’re not implying that Chuck Smith has any responsibility in the whole SGM mess are you? If so, that’s unrealistic and unfair.
Nancy,
Where is the documentation that he teaches pastors that they should never apologize? And don’t get me wrong. Although I have had Chuck apologize to me, I have also heard him apologize to many other people, not just to those who are close to him. But why is this such a big deal to you, that you would have to take a straw poll on this for years? You made the statement that Chuck Smith doesn’t apologize, and I’m telling you that isn’t true. I don’t hear you apologizing for making a statement about him that isn’t true. How many witnesses would I have to bring on here before you admit that you are wrong?
Cent,
No … not at all. Just struggling with my wording today I guess … as usual … uggg. I meant CS not correcting his own mistakes … and SGM possibly not correcting their own mistakes. The connection possibly being neither may be willing to correct themselves.
Nancy,
A lot of people will say things that Chuck has allegedly said, or stretch and take out of context what Chuck has said in order to give credibility towards and justification of their own actions. Don’t be so quick to believe it, even if they were on staff at CCCM.
Dave,
I truly hope I am wrong. I don’t recall you saying that you ever heard CS apologize in front of many. Now I’m really confused … why no corrections then??? Please prove me wrong … please! I mean that!
Dave…can I butt in and just suggest that the discussion on SGM is stirring things for Nancy, plus she has much on her plate. Just suggesting let’s not be too harsh…it is possible that a pastor has suggested these things about CS, and if false he would be the one who needs to apologize and be dealt with.
Nancy did say. “I didn’t mean to imply that no one has ever heard CS apologize. If it sounded that way I’m very sorry.”
I’m not saying don’t bring the truth out, and I think Nancy is strong enough to handle being corrected…but especially on this thread, let’s do so with much gentleness. I think wounds are fairly raw here today.
Just suggesting…
I understand all this. I’ve had the “Chuck Smith” card played on me by some people that were spiritually immature, legalistic, and over zealous in furthering their own agendas. That is not Chuck Smith’s fault, nor is he responsible.
Cent,
I’m not usually quick to believe things … that’s why I’m still asking questions. I have asked many over the years and certainly didn’t just take the word of a clearly abusive pastor. CS views on apologizing and especially making corrections even when clearly needed have been confusing at best.
Nancy,
I’ve heard him say he was wrong to thousands, as well as to many individuals. But that doesn’t mean he says he is wrong about anything, just because someone somewhere thinks he was wrong. He doesn’t throw out gratuitous apologies, but they are regular and sincere.
Let me give you one example, that relates to the handling of this molestation situation. Several years ago a young man was molested by a staff member at our church. The staff member was instantly fired, and counseling was offered to the young man. We talked to the authorities, who told us that it was up to the victim to report the crime, as he was 18 when he reported it to us. It would be wrong for us to report it, as it would violate this young man’s privacy. The young man was struggling with what to do and asked for a meeting with Pastor Chuck and myself. Chuck apologized profusely to the young man, even though he wasn’t the one who hired the offender (I was) and he couldn’t have possibly done anything to prevent it. The young man said that he was struggling with whether or not to report the offense to the criminal authorities. He was concerned for the possible bad publicity that might hurt the church. Chuck immediately told him, “Don’t worry about the church. If it will help you to report it, and if it helps in your healing, then we will stand behind you doing whatever you feel the Lord wants you to do.” I believe the young man began to heal at that very moment. And he is doing incredibly today. That’s just one story. How many do you need?
Nancy…sorry, in my post sounded like you needed to be corrected. I have no idea…sounds like this could be a dialog that Rolph and others could help work through.
Just wanted to interject that we have a lot of new people here on this thread, and wanted to suggest we move through this dialog with gentleness.
Maybe I should go back to lurking…my words aren’t coming out very well either.
nancy,
I’m pretty sure of who you speak………….. he is friends of a former pastor of mine……. and birds of a feather………..
I gave up trying to figure this all out, but I know given the chance, man will screw it up ever time….. I think that would called total depravity
one more thing….. it’s amazing how time has a way of revealing things, that is, things eventually come to light
Nancy,
I’m sorry. I’ll take Sarah’s counsel and drop this.
Cent,
I hear you to a point about playing the CS card. I’m not at all saying that CS should … or could … correct everything that is said about his views. But … some correction is possible and also necessary at times.
Sarah,
Your words were perfect.
You did well, Sarah.
Might I suggest that some people have played the Chuck Smith card to make excuses for their own wrong behavior towards others, and that not only is Smith not responsible for some idiot using him, but wouldn’t know about it (because none of these jerks are going to report themselves to CCOF)?
I tried to play the Dave Rolph card one time. Got me absolutely no where!
Scott,
Good way to get thrown out of almost anywhere.
Thanks Sarah.
Thanks Dave,
I’m okay. I want to be wrong about this but at this point I’m just confused by what seem like contradictions. I believe what you say about CS yet have heard/read others(excluding my ex-pastor) I believe as well. Conflicting???
What I’m not confused about is corrections are needed and CS is one man who can make some of the corrections needed. That is why I focus on him & others like him. I have nothing against CS personally. For that matter I acknowledge his God given abilities. My prayer is he will use them fully to prevent further abuse.
Dave, are you still doing the His Channel thing Tuesday nights? Haven’t seen any mention of it here in awhile.
Sarah,
Part of the reason I could say I’m okay is because of your kind post. Thanks again.
perhaps we should print PP playing cards…
Nancy,
Why would you be confused about conflicting information regarding anyone. Not just Chuck Smith.
All of us have friends and enemies. Even our friends can have conflicted feelings about us, and we ourselves are not always consistent if we are honest with ourselves.
Even if we could always be consistently right, that in and of itself would get us enemies who would speak out against us.
“Woe unto you when all men speak well of you.”
Nancy…I’m really glad…we care deeply for you.
Brian…thanks!
Dave…have I told you how much respect I have for you? Thanks so much for hearing my heart.
Centy,
Who gets to be the joker?
Brian,
We took off a few weeks of His Channel Live for the holidays. In the mean time the company that does it ran into some financial issues. I always worked for free but they still have to pay camera people, producers, sound people etc. Anyway, we are on hiatus until some issues are resolved. They will probably be rerunning some of the old programs in the mean time. The say they want to start it up in a few weeks. We’ll see.
Tony,
Definitely A Believer.
Sarah,
The feeling is mutual. (Hanging my head as I type.) I am a much worse sinner than you are. I wish everyone could see my humility as I say this. Is there an emoticon for a humble face? IMHHHHHO, you are the greatest!
Dave, thanks for the update!
Maybe you could get a Macbook and do a show yourself over Tokbox or Mogulus. We’d link to it and sponsor it. There’s no telling who you could interview
BrianD,
Have you taken to speaking in tongues? Tokbox, Mogulus??? Those sound really spiritual.
Dave,
“The man who would use a humble emoticon would have no need for one.”
-Anonymous
Norman @ 3:19
YEP!!!!!!!!
Now, now London and Norman,
I’ll have no one trying to edge in on my rightful place!
http://www.batmania.com.ar/images/images_revista/joker_13.jpg
London, I don’t know - what about Hoppy?
He tells real good jokes!
I believe that the concerns being voiced about CS have to do primarily with Calvary Affiliate Churches and the model of governance promoted through CCOF directly or indirectly.
The Moses Model breaks down with the normal demands of providing for a governance of God across a fellowship of churches that can be embraced for the benefit of the regular people who comprise these New testament Fellowships. It is not a normative reproducible model day in and day out.
Peter might have lead in the role of preaching the gospel and affirming the churches that were born as a result but he did it on a team of twelve appointed by Jesus.
Twelve that Jesus took the time to develop. Even the one to twelve ratio of Jesus to the apostles cannot be exactly reproduced because no one man has the capacity of nature or godliness that Christ possessed and expressed.
Even the unique gifting and authority of apostleship enjoyed by Paul is described in Corinthians in concert with a church body and the complete variety of gifts given for the edification of the body.
I think the issue really is, How Spirit filled do we really want to be in every dimension of existing as the church and witnesses of Christ? How much do we really want to develop in maturity as a corporate body and fellowship of churches?
Yes, it is more complicated; but can be addressed with a greater labor of love, work of faith and patience of hope of being led by the Spirit and choosing to intentionally follow.
Entrepeneurial men may indeed be used of God as catalysts to spark a fire of the Spirit, but do not know how or care not to confront a wildfire of pride and the flesh.
Contrary to popular opinion a team of shepherds can and will provide for the flame of the Spirit to continue. The only flame they will quench and put out are the flames of the flesh driven wildfires.
We are in a spiritual battle. Rambo has made lots of movies but has never been engaged in nor won a war to ensure the well being of others. But real men have worked in concert together to do just that.
Leaders play a huge role in the state of affairs as to how the body is doing.
Hey!
http://adiamondinsunlight.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/464px-joker-ritz.jpg
AB,
Not so much confused about the conflicting reports … that part alone wouldn’t confuse me. I get that because of the reasons you state. Although I don’t recall Dave ever saying/writing before that he heard CS apologize to thousands even if he did there is still the inconsistency in some of CS actions … or maybe inaction is a better way to say it. Why not attempt to deal with the gorilla in the room so to speak? CCCM is governed one way yet CS/CC still teaches another … stuff like that is confusing. Why teach one thing for years and now do another???
Sorry Jack, the bar has been raised.
http://www.cinematical.com/media/2007/11/joker113007.jpg
Pastor Chuck is a married man - you know he says “I’m sorry” quite often!
Yea … what Vic said.
MLD you are so nice today. Is your wife taking notice.
Hi Nancy,
I’m not aware of any official CCOF doctrine on apologies.
Do other churches or denominations have those?
I’m with you though Nancy. If an apology is necessary give it. I don’t know if Chuck owes anyone an apology right now or not.
I’m also unaware of any official or unofficial CCOF or CC policy that deems apologies unnecessary.
It sound like your ex-pastor owes you one though!
MLD,
Yea … but does he do anything to change what he said he was sorry for.
I know you have me beat in married years but I’ve been marries long enough to know the answer too. No confusion on that one.
oops … that married not marries
AB you can look at an apology in a technical task oriented way and treat it like a rule or you can view as an instrumental moment and action that serves to validate wrong done to real people and as a catalyst that serves to promote actual and real reconciliation and restoration in relationships that have great value to Christ.
The actual practice of the one anothers in the N.T that flow from the greatest command of Christ to love another are dependent upon an exercise of mutual trust. When trust is broken it is worth whatever effort it takes to promote restoration of trust.
If this is such a vital dynamic of body life the leaders should be diligently involved in ensuring that it enjoys a healthy presence amongst those entrusted to their care.
AB,
“Do other churches or denominations have those?”
Once again, the Lutherans step up to the plate.
http://www.ctsfw.edu/bsmith-cts/etext/boc/ap/
Fred, let me quote Roger Rabbit on this one…..
OH PPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEZZZZZZZEEEEEE.
Vic,
“Entrepeneurial men may indeed be used of God as catalysts to spark a fire of the Spirit, but do not know how or care not to confront a wildfire of pride and the flesh.”
Are you implicating Pastor Chuck with this, or is this a general “if the shoe fits” exhortation to all?
Vic,
You have been speaking in generalities that no one would dispute in your last few comments.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone advocate the position that apologies weren’t necessary for wrongs done, be it CC or any other religious group.
AB, on the one hand if you are in the shoe store and the shoe fits; on the other hand. . .
“Surrounded by the evidence that we presented as well as that which he had commissioned himself, Paul Smith put his hands in the basin, wiped them on the Stipe Report and said “I find no fault in this man”.
The only men who could have sanctioned Skip Heitzig refused to sanction him and he was free to rebuild his kingdom.”
I have served in various leadership capacities at 6 Calvary Chapels, been a part of starting two more and been around a whole lot of conferences and plenty other informal teachings and trainings by no names and Chucks boys.
Seen a lot of unresolved and unaddressed issues that impacted others and some significant ones that struck some great blows to our family over the course of several decades.
I have watched parallel universes exist for quite a while. People are marginalized in the name of the movement.
MLD,
LOL!
Along with criticism I try to include solutions that bring what I believe to be valid doctrinal content.
AB, sorry if I am a little pungent. You might have been joking but it appeared to me that Nancy was being marginalized. gotta run aout for a bit.
Check out this story:
Billionaire Merckle commits suicide
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f9557fac-dc05-11dd-b07e-000077b07658.html
I can’t believe I missed the Neil Diamond conversation earlier today. Bob, he hasn’t been singing Shilo on the current tour. Saw him in San Diego back in October. Haven’t missed a show since 1986, and it was one of his best, mostly because he pretty much acts his age now. Of course, it couldn’t compare to Hot August Night, but I wasn’t there. I was only 10-years-old at the time, and hadn’t yet become a ND fan.
PJ was here too? Sheesh…Neil Diamond and Peter-John Courson in the same day. It’s probably a good thing I can’t blog from work.
I wonder if Axel Rose will open for Neil Diamond….
Vic,
I already addressed the problematic statement you quoted above (taken from this threads intro) earlier.
Paul did gather information about the Skip Heitzig situation and I suspect knows more about it than anyone here. There is a lot more data about all of this than is published on this site. I’ve seen the file folders! (not looked into them)
For me to cast doubt upon the validity of his actions once informed, without having total access to the information he does, is not really that gracious in my opinion.
Comparing Paul Smith to Pilate isn’t helpful here simply because we may disagree with him and his conclusions.
For example, I know without a doubt that Paul doesn’t consider Skip to be “blameless” in the matter. He just didn’t feel after reviewing the information available to him, that Skip’s errors made him worthy of being disfellowshipped.
I do acknowledge that others may have come to different conclusions had they had full access to the same information, and I respect and honor that. They just didn’t happen to be the ones finally entrusted with that decision.
With that said, I think all of us agree that there are problems within the CC system and that they do need to be corrected. I also do not wish to see the movement marginalized.
AB,
I know you were addressing Vic but may I comment on what you just said about marginalizing the movement?
Vic,
Nor do I wish to see Nancy’s concerns marginalized. What was done to her rightfully demands an apology and correction.
If systemic problems exist across the board within the CC movement that encourage more of the same kind of abuse, of course that should be addressed.
The CC movement has always had to dance a fine line between giving the autonomous churches within the fellowship freedom to follow the Holy Spirit’s leading, and effectively implementing disciplinary policies. Hopefully with God’s intervention they will strike that balance better in the future.
Sure Nancy,
Fire away!
Centy,
Probably not. ND doesn’t have an opening act, just does the full 2 and a half hours himself with no intermission. Hope I have that much energy when I’m 67 years old.
Capt,
Do you have that much energy now?