The "new Calvinists" need some old fashioned discipline.
Coming on the heels of "Noels Story" we now have "Esther's Story" and these and scores of other stories are saying that Sovereign Grace Ministries is a denomination with real abuse issues.
Based on the non response by C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris to all the allegations we can assume that the "apostles" are going to stonewall the situation unless forced by bad publicity to do otherwise.
Side note here…when your church is run by men who call themselves "apostles"…run.
Whenever leaders refuse to respond unless threatened in some way, they have ceased to be godly men and are nothing more than followers of their own enlightened self interest.
Right now SGM appears to be nothing more than a religious organization operated by and for the benefit of the select men in power.
Mahaney and Harris need to either step up and address the carnage they are overseeing or be dismissed as pious frauds who have succumbed to the lure of ecclesiastical power.
Then there's Mark Driscoll.
Help me, Lord.
After informing the New York Times that he would deal with dissenting elders by "breaking their nose" he is in hot water for linking from his website to a site that talks about "Christian sex".
I can't in good conscience link you to that site.
It's graphic.
Very graphic.
What we have happening among this group is authoritarianism and an underlying misogyny that I find incredibly disturbing.
What Mahaney, Driscoll, Piper and the rest of the new Calvinists promote quickly trickles down to independent churches that parrot what they see their beloved leaders doing.
That's a problem…
Calvin would roll over in his unmarked grave if he knew what was going on under his name.
I don't think God is real pleased either…
Rave: New material from Dr. Rod Rosenbladt over on New Reformation Press.
"When Good Fathers Die, It's Always Too Early (MP3, 2003) "
I listened to part of it last night and this is powerful stuff.
The first century Church demonstrated to the world a love through Christ that broke down long-held societal and inter-personal barriers. Women, slaves, prostitutes, poor, and others who were either disenfranchised or second-hand in status found standing with God and with each other that was revolutionary. The revolution didn’t last. Since then, the powers of prejudice, status quo, classism, clergy vs. laity, and a host of other maladies have shaped the expression of Christ from that which transforms society to one that lags behind society. The names and ‘movements’ you’ve listed today shame the name of Christ and deny His transformational power. The Church used to be ‘cutting edge’ but evidently needs some radical pruning itself. May each of us have ears to hear, eyes to see, minds to discern, and hearts which obey the Savior, Jesus.
Happy REVEREND Martin Luther King Jr. Day!
A man who lead a movement, headed by his Southern Christian Leadership Conference, where they sang explicitly Christian songs, prayed overtly Christian prayers and changed the heart and soul of a nation.
The laws that changed came later.
May we see new men of God, laity and full time ministers, stand up for what’s right, for their convictions, and see the heart and soul of our modern nation change again.
“Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty I’m free at last!”
Michael -
Out of curiosity, why is Piper included in the above? It seems to me he is unrelated to anything there.
Michael and Filbertz, a huge “Amen!”
Tim and Michael, I wondered that too.
Tim,
Piper is always appearing with and working with Mahaney and Driscoll.
He is someone I have huge respect for, but I have to hope that he uses his influence to bring some accountability to the clan.
The need to protect the “clan” grows with time and attack. The more a group like this perceives danger from the “outside” up go the defenses like a blowfish. Expect plenty of stonewalling, spin and finger pointing toward the victims.
The nonresponse of these ‘leaders’ is very revealing. That, in and of itself, is reason enough for people in these churches to put on their running shoes.
“The “new Calvinists” need some old fashioned discipline.”
I wonder if there are any “New Lutherans” churches out there? Independent churches that have adopted Lutheranism?
Michael, how could you? Rants & Raves on MLK day?
Kudos for a man who can rebuke his own tribe…. TY Michael.
Just to be the agitator….
**Side note here…when your church is run by men who call themselves “apostles”…run.**
Maybe a larger discussion of titles would be in view by such a comment. There are a number of things to consider…
1. There are 5 titles given in the text of scripture to particular people in the church with leadership responsibilities and gifts…
Apostles… found 78xs all in the NT
Prophets…475xs about 1/4 in the NT
Evangelists…3x all in the NT
Pastors… 9x…1 in the NT… OT refers to Kings… 0x in ESV
Teachers…70x…all but 7 in the NT
(these are English words but they are illustrative of the point)
Other words include Bishop, Elder and Overseer…
2. Why do we have a preference for the use of Pastor and Evangelist which are the least used over Apostle Prophet and even Teacher which are the most used in scripture?
3. The warning against pretense is well aimed. The idea that everyone who has such a title is full of pretense is another matter altogether. It is sometimes simply the culture of an organization. Some men simply call themselves apostle because they are in such a tradition. It sounds normal rather than pretentious.
4. The age-old issue among protestants is that the “apostle” has gone off the scene… For dispensationalists this is a matter of fighting the charismatic movement. For evangelicals it is a way of fighting the Catholics. Some of course fight both thereby.
5. Even on this blog…John Calvin is functionally an apostle. He is certainly quoted often enough and with the idea that ….once spoken …his word binds. Luther is similar….
So is the point here that there are no apostles or that the title is simply wrong to take…
I was raised with two very opposite admonitions….
1. Let no man call you by your first name…a title is necessary to avoid folksie familiarity and disrespect.
2. Just call yourself by your first name… it was good enough for the Jesus it is good enough for you. All titles are pretentious.
Anyway that should do for a conversation provocation.
Pope Dread
Babs,
“Luther is similar….”
Hmmm, The Apostle Martin… it has a nice ring to it.
Michael -
Thanks for the clarification. Piper certainly has enough respect among that crowd to provide a great call for reform. Hopefully he’ll do so.
That’s the Spirit MLD…
As for Driscoll… he has a passion for us to know about his virility. As for his christian nymphos… well he is wedded to the information age. And he is obviously devoted to carnal knowledge…
As for his advice about particular sexual practices… hmmm… well I do remember the first shudder that went through me the first time I heard of such a thing…THE HORROR…one can only hope that Mr. D. is reciprocated on his advocacy of happy endings.
Punful Dread
PX2,
You make an excellent point…and that’s the reason this group needs to get a handle on these behaviors before it expands any more.
I thot we’d settled the apostle question … it’s ok, if it isn’t spelled with a capital “A.” And, if it isn’t a tradition of centuries in my church, it probably isn’t a bona fide title now. Michael’s warning makes all the sense … IMO
I can not stand Mark Driscoll!!!
I’m still holding out hope for these SG guys to respond. Having been intimately associated with the inner workings centralized CC’s, I now how much is going on all at once. There can be a concerted effort to rightly shield the leaders from certain information. However, when that information is as weighty and troubling as the aforementioned stories it baffles me as to why there has been no public response by the senior leaders (that I’m aware of).
So much of the underlying issues/problems that stir beneath the surface of churches and formulate the topics of frustrated conversation can be quelled I feel, if the senior leaders just stop ignoring the public’s problems and write a letter, blog post, public email or something letting the people know that they are doing SOMETHING about it. When the body feels the suspense that silence brings they grow increasingly more aggravated, and consequently resort to more high profile means of trumpeting their cause.
God Bless you Michael
I commented about Driscoll and the NYT over on Imonk the other day.
I should be honest before I begin. I am not a Christian. I think it’s true that Christians are first, manipulators and liars, to themselves and always to others.
I have attended both Calvin and Regent (Vancouver) college with only regret in my heart for wasting my precious youth.
Martin Luther King was not a Calvinist by any stripe and it’s telling Calvinist are ready to consider MLK a Christian. MLK was a great man who used religious sentiments to do the one thing we primates love to do most: gain power. MLK in my honest opinion was a genius and the comments made by others here only confirm this. You Calvinists are doing a great job in moving your ignorant tribe forward but eschewing the racism which made and kept you relevant in years past.
Dread,
I’ll take a quick shot at it.
Isn’t the concern re. modern day apostles over the fact that the 1st century guys laid down doctrine, and were personally sent ambassadors of Jesus, including Paul, who was commissioned by the resurrected Christ.
Modern day “apostles” don’t lay down doctrine, since that has been completed. They didn’t have a face to face with Jesus, that we know of. What would be their function? As we no longer need a John The Baptist, do we still need “A”postles?
I don’t think it’s a matter of dispensationalism, but of function. What do modern day apostles do, and why are they deserving of that title, and how does that title jive with the 1st century Apostles.
Out for a hospital visit.
I see a true and general sense of the word “apostolic” in leaders who initiate ministries and labor for their maturity by personally mentoring other leaders in a team environment and modeling the life of the disciple.
I could also see an “apostolic” individual as one who brings a body or group of church bodies into a renewed walk and expression of already revealed and accepted doctrine and truth.
However, I believe that today we see apostles whether possessing such a tile or not as those who almost function as pseudo mediators in terms of grasping and walking in truth and love.
Jesus hated the deeds and doctrines of the nicolaitans vic,
Bill praying that your visit would provide encouragement and comfort by the Spirit to those you encounter. Planned or not.
I just can’t help but think that we will sooner or later see some scandal of a sexual nature attributed to Driscoll. No prophecy here, just a gnawing gut feel.
Sorry, Dread, but you’re continously trying to pigeonhole anyone who doesn’t believe the apostles ended in the first century as “dispensationalists.”
Bullcrap and horsepuckey.
It’s the view of the large majority of Protestantism, mainline and most evangelical. It has a lot more going for it than any other view. I’m far from being a “dispy,” yet this is what I affirm.
Martin Luther is sure as hell not an apostle — neither is Calvin or anyone else after the apostles. I’m a Lutheran because I believe the beliefs of the church are closest to God’s Word.
Besides, I have to spend half my time disavowing things Luther said.
Thankfully it’s easy. We’re not bound by anything he said outside the Lutheran Confessions.
Linnea, I sure pray that would not transpire. His wife is a godly woman.
Poolplayer,
Welcome to PP.
Where the hell on PP is anyone connecting MLK to Calvinism? I must’ve missed it.
Also, how do you know MLK was or wasn’t a Christian? Please enlighten me.
MLK was a Baptist. But his daddy named him for the great Reformer
after a trip to Deutschland.
Poolplayer,
Where did you see what you spoke anyone connect MLK with Calvinism?
Are you on the right blog?
Vic–I pray not, too, but Mr. Driscoll spends a lot of time camping on this topic.
Hey Poolplayer!
Thanks for the honesty! Just so you know, not everyone in this particular tribe (this blog) is a Calvinist and I’d venture to say there’s probably some that feel exactly the same way as you do about people that call themselves christian. Yep..the church is full of manipulators and liars…but, not all christians are..and when you find those that aren’t, it’s hard to know what to make of them. It’ll do your head in, that…
It’s funny to me that you’re writing a post about tribal thinking, racism and groupthink, yet you’re making such broadbrush statements yourself. ‘Sup with that?
Maybe Poolplayer slept through his theology classes at Regent and Calvin.
Go gently here….
Another view…
“Jan 19, Anniversary of Martin Luther King, Jr.
Question of the day:
What have I learned from Martin Luther King, Jr.?
Isn’t it surprising and amazing that a man who almost perfectly parallels the Biblical prophets would arise in our country and in our time? It should not be surprising if we knew more about the prophets and about Martin Luther King, Jr. too. We would see clearly how he was chosen, formed, used, and rejected—and, an imperfect human being like the rest of us.
King was a Christian theologian and pastor, yet very critical of how Christianity had misinterpreted its teacher, Jesus of Nazareth. He was an insider/outsider.
He was from an oppressed class, and yet rose above his own tribal anger to link many social issues, especially non-violent social action. He was a seer and then a doer.
His final address showed the seeming foreknowledge that many associate with prophecy, as well as radical God-centeredness, personal surrender, and clarity of message.
Martin Luther King, Jr. was an American Christian Prophet, given in our time by God to give people clear hope for social change without violence.”
peace
“Side note here…when your church is run by men who call themselves “apostles”…run.”
Driscoll has preached that he sees himself more as having the gifting of an “apostle,” a leader of leaders, the number one man in the number one position, than a mere pastor - one who gets down and dirty with the flock.
I’d say that means “when your church is run by Mark Driscoll…run” more than anything to do with a particular title used by people in other traditions.
But then again, I MAY have mentioned once or twice how I feel about Mark Driscoll
LUTHERAN!….
Take a valium… I said**For evangelicals it is a way of fighting the Catholics.** perhaps I should have just said protestants there. Or maybe I should have said “Lutherans too” since that is all you really want to be called. Anyway… I am aware of the historic Protestant position that apostles left the scene and gave us the deposit of ‘Apostolic doctrine’ known as the New Testament. You overheated when I actually acknowledged your position which was basically anti-Catholic because of the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession.
All I point out is that Luther certainly functioned as an Apostle in your church in that he SET THE FOUNDATION… of the Lutheran… rather than Catholic church… what has Luther got for his heritage? Not only the Reformation but the complete fragmentation of the whole of Christianity… while you are bullcrapping my comments you need to realize that the whole of Christianity is drinking the elixir that was brewed by Luther and stirred with his pen.
Anyway…I was just opening a discussion and asking some questions. But if I use Luther’s sola scriptura I will either come up with the Catholic Apostolic Succession or the newer idea of the restored apostolic office…. I WILL NOT COME up with the cessation of the apostolic gift from the text of scripture… rather it is rooted in the traditions of the Reformation.
Poolplayer: “I think it’s true that Christians are first, manipulators and liars, to themselves and always to others.”
Player, there’s no denying that there are many Christians that fit this bill. Likewise, there are many who do not name Christ as Lord that also fit the bill. However, I just have too many christian friends that, despite faults, are open, honest, compassionate, and caring. Please be careful of the broadbrush.
Bill,
Modern day apostles do what apostles always did… they set order… settle disputes of doctrine… and lay the foundation for the church in places where it is not laid.
I know the tradition well… that the apostle went off the scene …as MacArthur postulates because the foundation is laid… I just say it ain’t so.
Apostolic doctrine and Gospel are established not to added to or subtracted from… The church has historically agreed on that. But not this point. All I was doing was laying down some talking points on the matter.
I can hear the Missouri Synod horse hooves beating … a posse is on the way.
Cheers
Lute and Babs,
As my mother would say, “Don’t MAKE me pull this car over!!!!”
Kev, I thought your mom always just said “KEVIN…WAKE UP!!!”
OH Captain My Captain…
Standing on Desk Dread
I like what Dread said about Ephesians 4:11:
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastors
Teachers
And their relative frequencies in the NT.
And that IS different than how we in the modern American church treat the 5-fold ministry.
I’ve looked and have yet to see any scriptural evidence that some but not all of those 5 ministry offices ended.
But I DO see NT evidence of false prophets, false teachers, and false apostles, and implied evidence of false pastors/shepherds (and hirelings in John 10).
The closest man of God I know who could be considered an apostle has never called himself that nor asked or permitted people to do such a thing.
Evangelist-Captain James T Kirk
‘Just to be the agitator…’ (Dread)
Well, if Dread can be an agitator, why can’t I?
Not only the Reformation but the complete fragmentation of the whole of Christianity… while you are bullcrapping my comments you need to realize that the whole of Christianity is drinking the elixir that was brewed by Luther and stirred with his pen.
Again, you’re bullcrapping my bullcrapping. Read some more church history. The entire Western church fragmented centuries before, first with the RCC and later with the EO, and lots ore.
If you think church history isn’t littered with Church fragmentation, think again. You’re again fixated on Luther. Truth is, he was the ultimate church conservative. Blame Protestant fragmentation, if you want, on the post Lutherans.
“if I use Luther’s sola scriptura I will either come up with the Catholic Apostolic Succession or the newer idea of the restored apostolic office…. I WILL NOT COME up with the cessation of the apostolic gift from the text of scripture”
If only the discussion was based around the “sola scriptura”…
Without going into a lengthy explanation for now, I agree somewhat with Dread in the matter. There’s not a question in my mind that Luther could/should be viewed as an apostle (small a; not capital A)…as could others who, through the centuries have been responsible for large church movements. That doesn’t mean that his words were inspired by God as Scripture; simply that God used him in an apostolic role for the Church. (Not unlike Barnabas & Apollos) Even capital “A” Apostles could be wrong from time to time (see Peter & Galatians).
Where I might differ with Dread (I dunno; he might agree) is that there’s a vast difference between the Church looking back & affirming that someone is/was an apostle, and some guy claiming the title for himself. Guys who run around with the title “Apostle” scare me.
PoolPlayer, “I should be honest before I begin. I am not a Christian. I think it’s true that Christians are first, manipulators and liars, to themselves and always to others.”
ahh an honest man … according to our Lord, you are a rare one … we Christians do have trouble when we get bogged down in “method Christianity” and honesty is not our strong suit. It does tend to hypocrisy, but not damnation… Perhaps, you’ve been following men and not God? Because it sure sounds like you’ve looking hard at them.
Sovereign Grace Ministries may say they believe in Calvinism. The name “sovereign grace” from what I have seen is just another way of saying one is Calvinistic. At least some of their actions seem to contradict what they say they believe.
My understanding of Calvinism is that it teaches that God chooses who will be saved and subsequently those who God doesn’t choose for salvation have no chance of salvation. Put another way, Calvinism teaches that God doesn’t give all people what they need to be saved. Some have in essence been reprobated by God. I know there is a spectrum of beliefs but believe what I just shared is the basic tenant of Calvinism.
Putting this another way, Calvinism teaches man has no choice with regard to salvation. If God wants someone to be saved, then according to Calvinism, the person will be saved. Conversely, if God doesn’t will someone to be save that person has no chance of being saved. I don’t agree with Calvinism but hopefully I have a good understanding of what it stands for.
The contradictions I see are:
1. They say they believe in a Sovereign Grace but then hold pastors accountable for the inappropriate actions of their adult children. This includes requiring some pastors to step down due these adult children actions.
I do understand where scripture talks about the requirement for an elder being one who keeps his children under control. I have seen cases where children of unbelievers are better behaved than the children of some Christian couples. I do wonder how far this scriptural admonishment should go. Also, what can be done or what allowance have they made for some of the pastors children being reprobated by God as their doctrine teaches may happen?
2. It has recently been shared where at least some of the parents exert an estreme amount of control over their adult children. This certainly shows a lack of belief in a “sovereign grace” that their name implies.
This is a serious question that may save a lot of people some depending on how we answer it.
I think it is good to point out problems like in SGM and Costa Mesa, or Albuquerque but here’s my question: Do they owe us an explanation? This thread started citing the no response from CJ Mahaney and Josh Harris but do we expect them to answer and even if they do owe PP an explanation for their actions? I highly doubt they will.
If we take the info provided by PP as information and a help to help others we will do well. But if we feel we are owed an answer we may be frustrated when they don’t.
“…some headaches…”
The apostle controversy again.
Apostle with a big “A” is one who was there and was commissioned by Jesus to tell of His life and teachings. Both Peter and Paul refer about the words of the prophets and the Apostles. Meaning OT prophets as in the Law and the Prophets and NT Apostles who saw and were taught by the Lord first hand.
Apostle with a little “a” is “one who is sent.” To be sent one has to have someone who sends. These men and yes I believe women can be apostles in the sense they go and establish works.
Apostles with big “A” had ability to write scripture about how and what Jesus told them.
Apostles with little “a” get to repeat and pass on to faithful men what the Apostles with the big “A” left us. Nothing new and no new revelations about Jesus.
Too simple for many, especially those who want a title. Probably why Luther and others never accepted the title, they were humble.
Poolplayer: “I think it’s true that Christians are first, manipulators and liars, to themselves and always to others.”
CK:”Player, there’s no denying that there are many Christians that fit this bill.”
Perhaps herein lies the problem….
in the notion that “christians” are characterised by manipulation and lying… and many fit that bill.
May God forbid!
“so called Christians” maybe.
But NOT those who deny themselves and follow Christ.
Though they may they slip occasionally, those who follow Christ,
will be known by their love
will be known by their Honesty
will be known by their care one for another
Is Michael requiring SGM to respond here?
CJ and his band of merry men are likely hunkered down in their SGM bunker waiting for this storm to pass.
This webpage among many others is doing what it can to disappoint the lot of them.
I have heard story after story about the micrimanagment of adult children. Their parenting teaching is extreme at best and, seeing the common denominator that seems to run through these seemingly disparate behaviors/teachings is fear.
I have also heard of pastors being forced to step down because their kids did horrid things like elope. eeeekkkk run for the hills. I know one prominant so-called Apostale whose child actually did some things thaat are not quite legal. I will not name names because I like the kid and feel sorry for him-her (I won’t even reveal the gender.) Said Bigwig knows about this because the kids sibling dropped a dime on him-her (!!!) and the kid has been taken off the face of the non SGM map and uberobserved. But, funny, no one at SGM knows about this (and a lot of you would recognize this bigwig’s name if I dropped it.) So can anyone say hypocracy? No disciplinary action, no shock and righteous indignation.
Oh, and Driscoll, I agree with Linnea, the man his far too ocd about sex not to have some deviancy in one of his closets. At the very least, his poor wife (forgive the bike analogy,) is likely ridden hard and put away wet.
Poor thing, I don’t envy her.
Drew,
Great definition.
It doesn’t matter how popular someone is — that doesn’t make him (or her! an Apostle!
There have been more books written about Martin Luther than any other
human being, save Jesus. Does that make him an apostle? Sorry. No.
Don’t agree? See Drew’s last post.
Steve Hopkins: Do they owe us an answer? No. Do they have an obligation to Christ to speak clearly to the people of God? Yes.
If not, how can they say that they themselves are pursuing the proclaimed foundation and purpose of their ministry which is to speak the truth in love?
Drew -
Good explanation…I’d agree with that. You said it better than I did.
Luther was an apostle! Whether you like it or not!
Vic
Maybe they are obligated to Christ to speak clearly to the people of God?
They probably feel they are pursuing the proclaimed foundation and purpose of their ministry which is to speak the truth in love.
Regardless of their obligation and whether they should respond, I have learned one thing that has helped me endure the injustices at the hands of ministers who should know better and act better: People, christian, pastor or what ever are no damn good
A pastor shared those words with me 30 years ago. They have helped me navigate stuff like this
I don’t think I am good enough to be a “B” postle. I may qualify as a “C” postle but never an “A” postle
Lutheran -
I’ll assume it’s me. 
Luther may not have (would not have) accepted the title, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t an apostle (little “a”). One of us must have read Drew wrong, because we both agreed with him & came to opposite conclusions.
Most of the comments above I agree with… Tim is right we do not normally ascribe to ourselves the title… though Paul certainly asserted his apostleship… indeed that he was not less than any apostle.
I also agree with most of the Big A little a assertions of Drew based mainly on the issue of the canon of scripture being complete. Apostles today are not writing scripture. Though I see little difference among Calvinists between the way they use the Institutes and the way they use scripture… Certainly many seem to confer upon Calvin an apostolic interpreters status… His word is given precedence over others. Sorry… offensive but true in function.
Finally… WE can lay this to rest for my part and skewer these lascivious and lewd calvinists …
oh yeah… .Lutheran…
You are always such good sport in a fight…
Two punches and its over…
Frederich the Wise Guy Dread
Steve, thanks for the answer and I appreciate the angle that you take which is one of providing comforting help grounded in wisdom.
At the end of the day that is where I try and need to end up. But the peace of God that sustains me also compels me to proclaim with the voice He has given me.
I think the collective voice of the PP and other conversations it has sparked or helped will enable a movement of people or an individual to retain a greater measure of love,light and saltiness in their thoughts, actions and interactions; therefore retaining or gaining practical value in the hands of the Lord.
Dread,
The vast majority of Calvinists have read neither Calvin or the Institutes.
Most would consider the Westminster Confession to be more authoritative.
Steve,
How about an opostle, but you have to agree to hang upside down!
Oh,
You guys are saying Luther was a small “c” apostle?
OK. Whatever.
Good point Michael…
“Two punches and its over…” LOL!!!
Ok I have paroused the questionable web sites referred to by Driscoll and others… And I will stimulate the conversation.
1. Christian books that graphically describe sex acts; including questions of oral and anal sex have been on the market for a long time. They seldom create so much as a stir. How different are these sites?
2. How do Christians get healthy sexual information that uses words and questions that are not in the Bible? Are these sites to be damned for dealing openly with these serious questions… I mean a large portion of our adherents came out of perverse and addicted lifestyles of sexual lewdness… Where do they get their questions answered.
3. Is the objection because of the potentially defrauding nature of the sites… in other words are we upset because these people talk openly about their strong passions and how to righteously assuage them? What exactly is the problem?
4. These web sites actually may keep people out of porn and porn shops for information and products… is that not a reasonable matter?
What are we cursing Driscoll for… other than being a jackass? I mean he glories in that.
So there is the beach ball….bounce it around gang.
How offended are you folk at this…?
I can site a number of dangers but I am not sure that these guys should be censured completely…
There He Goes ADread
Michael, is it even possible to be a Calvinist having never read Calvin or the Institutes?
That’s like saying you’re a Calvary Chapelite and have never studied the Blueletterbible online.
I seldom post here (when I do, more seldom do they get responded to) but I’m saddened by statements about Driscoll like:
Linneas,
“I just can’t help but think that we will sooner or later see some scandal of a sexual nature attributed to Driscoll. No prophecy here, just a gnawing gut feel.”
& DB
“the man is far too ocd about sex not to have some deviancy in one of his closets.”
As a pastor myself, the thought of others in the body even THINKING things like this about me trouble me…let alone POSTING their thoughts in a public forum as this.
Personally, I feel Driscoll goes way to far on the casual “sex talk”, but to make speculations about potential future failings is VERY far from a heart that prays for this man’s Godliness nor does it in any way showcase God’s grace. Truly, there must be a better way to discuss a Pastors “shameful speech” w/o, equally shameful suggestions of what could/may happen.
peace
Hi Michael,
I was so glad to see that you have picked up on the SGM story, and your readers are showing interest as well. I’m not familiar with all your writing, but I was really encouraged to see you point out the following, “What we have happening among this group is authoritarianism and an underlying misogyny that I find incredibly disturbing.”
Yes! I am so happy to see you include this as one of your main criticisms of SGM, for it is certainly one I share.
As someone who was in SGM for more than a decade, I can tell you that, regardless of how often they say (and they say this often) that they are celebrating the “differences between men and women”…women are definitely suppressed and regarded as the lesser sex.
All of this stems from the SGM belief that Jesus Christ is not equal to the Father within the Trinity. They believe that Christ is eternally subordinated within the godhead, and use this as a basis for their belief in the eternal subordination of women to men.
I’m sure you are familiar with this problem. Kevin Giles points out, “This new teaching on the Trinity came to full fruition in 1994 with the publication of W. Grudem’s, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Zondervan, 1994). Two chapters in this book outline his doctrine of the eternal subordination of the Son in function and authority. The impact of this book on evangelicals cannot be underestimated. Over 130,000 copies have been sold and the abridged version, Bible Doctrine (ed. J. Purswell; Zondervan, 1999), with exactly the same teaching on the Trinity and women, has sold over 35,000 copies. For Grudem the Son’s role subordination, like that of women, is not a matter of who does certain things as we might expect on seeing the word “role,” but rather a matter of who commands and who obeys.”
CJ Mahaney is in complete agreement with Grudem over this, as he is with Randy Stinson and others of the CBMW, of which Mahaney sits on the board. Mahaney’s wife Carolyn teaches all the women to allow themselves to be led by men in general, so as to “affirm” the men as the leaders of the human race, both in the church and in the home.
Furthermore, Mahaney nearly always refers to Jesus Christ as “The Savior”, emphasizing His role.
It’s bad. And SGM is one of the worst. Over and over SGM and Mahaney emphasize that this issue, male and female roles, are at the heart of the gospel, and any attempts to tamper with their stance (SGM, Grudem, CBMW, etc) reveals an attack from the enemy to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fact of the matter is, if Mahaney’s followers didn’t believe him on this, his whole authoritarian-pyramid-structure of leadership (with him at the top) would come tumbling down. Perhaps he is sincerely misled, but he is certainly bound and determined to sincerely mislead others!
At least that’s how I view it.
Thanks for blogging about this!
“I think the collective voice of the PP and other conversations it has sparked or helped will enable a movement of people or an individual to retain a greater measure of love,light and saltiness in their thoughts, actions and interactions; therefore retaining or gaining practical value in the hands of the Lord.”
amen Vic
People need books on how to do the dirty deed??? Hmmm, back in the day, we just figured it out in the back seat!
What’s wrong with this younger generation?
I guess I can tie a previous conversation on Sanctification to this thread with the mention of Rod Rosenbaldt over at New Reformation Press.
This T-Shirt explains our position in it’s entirety. You need to read the description on the right hand side.
http://www.newreformationpress.com/clothing-apparel/tshirts/weak-on-sanctification-tshirt.html
can’t Christians do ANYTHING
without consulting their pastor, a book, a site, or each other? JeezoPeete we’re lame sometimes.
Here’s may take on the Driscoll public s@x talk. I think it’s driven mainly by MEN who want their wives to do things they’ve seen in our p$rn saturated society and need their “Godly” Leader to define and sanction what is and isn’t acceptable. Once he proclaims it “Clean” and totally acceptable, the women must then “Submit” to their husbands, if not…
“There is nothing more terrible than to be using the means of Grace
The house of God, the glories and the blessing of the gospel
to serve some personal selfish end.”
D.M. Lloyd Jones
“If you are not conscious of God pronouncing judgment upon the Christian Church at the present time, I almost despair. Can you not hear it, can you not see it? Why do the common people in all countries find the church almost fatuously ridiculous? It is Gods judgment because of the abuse and the misuse.”
“I solemnly suggest to you that the explanation of the state of many countries in the world at this hour is the abuse and misuse, the misappropriation of the things that God has given us and their use for our own unworthy and selfish ends.”
D.M. L-Jones
Dread, I would like to hear Mark say strongly with authority that there is ruling principle of love that is over and pervades all areas of marriage including the physical/sexual one.
“Dwell with your wives according to understanding as heirs together of the grace of God.” I agree that converts are coming out of perverse/twisted/confused mindsets and lifestyles.
How about the emotional hurt and confusion that the women have experienced? Is it about giving the men the physical techniques and experiences that are approved are disapproved in this new age of pseudo spiritual/intellectual sexual knowledge?
Or is it about the self control and self denial that the men can practice; gaining honor for themselves and thereby giving honor to their wives in the process?
It seems to me that these poor women are now in the name of Christ being pimped out to their husbands by their pope; MD.
Setting Dread up for a spike vic,
claireon: Thanks for pointing out the “eternal sub ordination doctrine” of CJ and Wayne Grudem and how what might seem at first glance to be an issue of splitting hairs when looking at the nature and function of the persons of the Godhead; is actually a big deal when it is applied and carried out to illogical extremes in real life.
SC: Good quotes from MLJ. What book?
WRT Driscoll,
Isn’t he the one that blamed Haggard’s (sp) wife for Haggard’s homosexual acts because she, “Let herself go” and made the poor man stray?
His sex talk is all about men getting what they want instead of the sex act as an expression of love between the married couple. His focus is, ahem, less than sympathetic to his appetites and, yet once again, the women under his influence are told that submitting to the will of the husband is her biblical duty (as is not gaining weight, apparently.)
And speaking of Haggard, he’s a good example of someone obcessed with being anti-gay and we find out he’s gay himself. It’s my working theory, what’s going on with Fred Phelps should be left to the individual imagination (if my theory is correct.)
On another subject, thank you once again for exposing SGM and Mahaney. It’s long overdue.
Victorious,
Its “The Path to True Happiness: John 2 ”
There is so much tremendous and powerful teaching in this book,
that I wish I could type faster to present more.
“It is no use talking about your great love for Him,
If you are not obeying Him. The one who keeps His commandments is the one who loves Him,
Or finally, listen to Pauls writings to Titus:
This is a faithful saying,
and these things I will that you affirm constantly
That They which have believed in God,
might be careful to maintain good works.’
Very ordinary is it not? Fill the waterpots ( as he is speaking on the water to wine miracle, and the servants obedience to His commands) Be careful to maintain good works.
There is no bypassing the commandments. they are commandments of God, and Christ did not come into the world to do away with them.
He came to fulfill them and to enable us to fulfill them.(Rom 8:3-4)
So we must keep the commandments
Obedience is basic and there must be no argument about that.
Obedience presupposes everything else.
If I am doing my utmost to keep the commandments,
and be clear that I must keep them,
and maintain good works,
and observe His word
he tells us to “Fill the waterpots”
That we might be filled with the fullness of God.
He commands, and as he commands,
He gives us the power.
He enables us to do what is impossible.”
Well, somebody besides Christians are noticing Driscoll’s obsession. Apparently there is an amateur p@orn film competition in Seattle and this year the requirement for entry is “that each video must either be shot on the campus of Mars Hill Church or have Mark Driscoll pictured in it.”
Victorious:
Some Chapter headings:
The person of Jesus Christ
Trust and Obey
A superabundance of Blessing
The cleansing of the Temple ( One Solus Christus would appreciate!)
True or Temporary Believers ( Lots of practical advice here)
“The vital issue: is The Lord Himself and our relationship to Him.”
DB,
I am not defending Driscoll here, but have you heard his series on “Song of Solomon”? I ask because he had some pretty stern things to say to men in regards to intimacy, and never presented it as a wife just lying there and taking it.
If anything, he was very hard on the men. I just don’t think it is right to state things without being sure of the truth of what is being said, especially when someone’s character is involved.
Linnea…may everyone who participates in making those films be confronted by Jesus when they come on Mars Hill campus or encounter Mark Driscoll. May what they mean for mockery turn out to be used to bring lost souls hope.
Sarah that is a good prayer!
What is interesting to me is that in Seattle, when Mars Hill is talked about, they are known as “the Jesus Church”. Could this be one of the reasons that the film festival folks think it is funny to mock and jeer at Driscoll and the church he pastors? Just asking?
I’d much rather have a guy like Driscoll being heard than Joel Osteen,, but that is another topic altogether.
Sarah…amen.
You know I dont find MD’s sex talk all that interesting, silly but not interesting, and it does not shock me what so ever. Now hearing a preacher in a dark suit speak in KJ English espousing with great elegance that God “let all those Jews get killed because they killed the Lord Jesus”, now that shocked me. Hearing a very conservative Proverbs 31 women think all babies, who die after or before death with go straight to hell, that also shocked me. Of course not as much as my reaction shocked them that I did not believe what they were saying.
The thing that did “shock” me was the cavalier attitude that was expressed about the young man that called him as expressed in one of MD’s books. I am always shocked when I see people in authority make lite of a soul in distress. I have seen it personally, especially at funerals and people in grief.
I have been on the receiving end of that mocking. You know if one of the biggies on radio or tv spent maybe 1/1000th the time on such issues as SGM or Bentley as they do on some openly gay bishop being elected to a Communion most of these same people think is a cult or apostate anyways. Things like sgm would simply not happen.
Another observation not a rant: it is amazing listening to the bible answer man and actually tracking how much time is used for marketing. Dont fault the man a bit, not at all just an observation.
Maybe the Seattleite folks in the world while mocking MD are betraying what their conscience is telling them that life and your identity is not just about sex whether the Christian version or the unregenerate perversion.
For sure we do not want a victorian mindset of repressing or rejecting sex but what about discretionary view of sex in the midst of so much more in this life Christ has gained for us.
Scott 2:32…
spot on.
There is a way to honor and glorify God in the beauty of intimacy within marriage.
There is a way to profane it with the lusts of the world and with the lust and gluttony of the flesh.
God will give people up to their own hearts lusts and to walk according to their own counsel, that is a sad fate indeed.
There are things which have been presented by Driscoll in sxuality that is much of the world, and the CN site he is reportedly linked to stinks of the defilement of the harlot and does not glorify our Lord.
Which is better,
To walk pure and upright before the Lord, pleasing Him
Or to walk in the lust of the flesh, pleasing oneself?
As the other article stated , we are bombared with sx, constantly.
One cant even go into the grocery store, and not see front cover magazines that are giving in your face advice on sxual conduct.
One thing I know, there is a greater intimacy that should be focused upon, which is being largely neglected.
When the greater: the spiritual/emotional/intellectual intimacy and bond is cultivated in marriage
the physical one will fall into place and it will be far more glorious and fulfilling than all the gimmicks and techniques the world can offer.
All the taudry acts, advice, toys and gimmicks will not solve a problem in the marriage,
However, if a marriage is full of tender intimacy, great love, spiritual unity in the bonds of Grace, the ways of the world applied will only cheapen and weaken the relationship.
I’ll put my head on the block and side with Dread and Stupar.
A few observations on my side:
1 - Does Driscoll go a little too far? Perhaps. But honestly, I wish I’d had pastors who talked frankly like that when I was younger. My birth father did all he could to warp my view of s*x, but by the grace of God that changed, though it was a struggle. I had tried to ask those tough questions as a new believer, and all I got was a loud thud of nothing. Personally, I say it’s about time they get tackled frankly and honestly.
2 - As for his wife… what is not being mentioned is that quite often she is there with him answering these tough questions. You can see & hear there love and respect for one another, and their deep concern for those they’re addressing. If one doesn’t agree, fine. But at least tell the whole scope of the story.
3 - One site I perused is called “The Marriage Bed”. Roughly 90% of the advice given and questions asked are from woman. You have older woman who could not enjoy s*x, except by the grace of God, because of what they were tought by their own mothers. They now rejoice in their freedom and are helping others walk through these things. I also read quite a few testimonies from married woman who truly want to perform in certain ways who feel hurt that they can’t because their own husbands were drilled with do’s and dont’s.
4 - Driscoll quite often hammers on the men to meet the physical needs of their wives and not think only of theirs.
5 - I’ll use one married couple in my own church as an example. She, from a non-christian & more liberal background. The husband from a more legalistic background. The wife started listening to the “Peasant Princess Series” as well the Woman’s theology classes. All of a sudden I thought they had been taken over by aliens. I have never seen them so infatuated with each since then. I praise God for that.
Back to my cave.
Today’s church does not need apostles or Apostles, it needs bishops who are have apostolic succession.
Also:
>>> you need to realize that the whole of Christianity is drinking the elixir that was brewed by Luther and stirred with his pen.<<<
This is not true.
Where is the leading of God’s Spirit and the presence of agape love in all this “how to” and “what’s O.K.” sex talk? Can’t God’s Spirit direct Christian couples in what God has blessed and ordained re. sex?
Must we take our cues from MD and others?
I guess Christian couples have been cheated by God for centuries until the sex analysts came along. Thank God, we can all enjoy our marriage beds now, now that we have been told what is O.K.
Sheeeeesh!
“When the greater: the spiritual/emotional/intellectual intimacy and bond is cultivated in marriage the physical one will fall into place and it will be far more glorious and fulfilling than all the gimmicks and techniques the world can offer.”
SC, I think you hit the nail on the head here. The physical intimacy lacks something without the spiritual/emotional/intellectual intimacy and connection. If a couple gets the first one going, the second will fall into place, and then the two aspects will enhance each other.
A large number of the organisms on this planet are capable of the physical act. The act in and of itself is not all that special without the emotional and spiritual connection (at least IMO).
I’ve said it before - if I had to choose between the first one or the second one with my wife, I’d choose the first one hands down.
Then again, just having a choice would be nice
Xenia
Amplify please
Bishop Dread
Eric H…
Good work… in truth I have seen too many marriages die the death of a barren bed… not childless …sexless…
Information is not bad… And many marriages lack healthy information…
… men don’t know about female orgasm
… women don’t know about male sex drive in any healthy way
… couples do not know about various dysfunctions and are embarrassed and ashamed to face any number of things I might name..
… I can go on endlessly about couples who have shut down in terms of sexual intimacy and are dying a slow death of lovelessness
… there are no generational avenues that are easily available, elders and youngers often fail to talk in helpful ways.
If you read some of the content of those web sites you find numerous testimonies of liberation… yes.. the potential of defilement remains…but I rejoice when people get help.
I cannot be as condemning of Driscoll’s effort as I might. There are many things I do not like about this man… but his boldness in the matter of sexual wholeness is not the focus I would have..
In past postings I have been critical but on closer exam I have less objections…
Pastors …give your people healthy information and resources. And call them to holiness and to cherish one another.
Nomans, your 2:32, that’s the first “atta boy” I’ve gotten on the PP in months! I must finally be on to something
Nomans, ooops, I meant your 4:13
Scott…
I’ve been upbraided for saying something in public, instead of saying it behind closed doors!
Linnea…
Some things are just better left behind closed doors >smile<
Dread,
For a man who believes so much in the power of the Holy Spirit, you seem to hand this area of sexual intimacy over to the “professionals”.
I still ask, “Where is the leading of God’s Spirit in all this?”
Submitted with respect and frustration about “where we ought to find answers”.
As a pastor, I have grown tired and am heart broken over the areas of sexual sin and “sexual problems”, and of the fact that married couples are running to the professionals instead of being humble and broken before God.
Where is the seeking of God in these things?
Where are the breakthroughs of self sacrifice and agape love in the bedroom?
Where is the leading of God in these things?
I have talked to women that listened to the MD article, and have been slashed open again by his charismatic exhortation for wives to “be in the shadow of their husband”, and to “taste the fruit”.
I am not broadbrushing the fact that godly people who are not pastors can help the saints.
What I hate is this public sharing of intimate information about what is and isn’t OK in the bedroom.
If well meaning Believers have been led astray by bad teaching pastors re. money, what will happen now when Christian Nymphos are speaking about how to be a dominatrix in the bedroom.
Come on folks…….I hate this “conversation”. Maybe I ought to bow out.
Well, if churches are going to be involved in teaching lifestyles issues, especially those that enhance family life - Mrs. MLD has recommended that the church teach me how to work on the cars.
I went slumming, and Lighthouse Trails has a different take…
“For those who are wondering why Lighthouse Trails is covering issues regarding “sexual spirituality,” we believe what is occurring with Mark Driscoll, Rob Bell (author of Sex God), and many others (including Focus on the Family’s marriage speaker, Gary Thomas) is a disguised version, perhaps at an infant stage, of New Age tantra…”
That didn’t take long.
And….
“I still ask, “Where is the leading of God’s Spirit in all this?””
Perhaps raising up people (albeit, imperfect redeemed sinners) to grow a pair and open their mouths?
I don’t want to be argumentative, but as someone who was heavily affected in this area (my “father” allowed me to sit on his lap & watch po*n as a 5 year old, not to mention his violent behavior & adultery). I still say it’s about time.
And to be honest, though God saved me in August of 1989, part of the reason I remained single was because I was afraid I’d be the pile of dung my father was.
I read my Bible, I know what is says about being a new creation in Christ, I prayed, I begged to have that fear removed. It wasn’t until almost 3 years ago and very “from the gut” discussion that it clicked that I’m not my father.
Now I look forward to and desire a partner.
Gay “Bishop” Gene Robinson’s Prayer Kicks off Inaugural Events.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWWAnitUCw4
Eric….I am glad for you.
I certainly don’t mean to minimize or take away from God has done in your life.
I’ll step out of this discussion.
Scott,
I am glad that I wasn’t at Robinson’s prayer - I am sure that I would have booed.
His talk (I have trouble calling it a prayer) was a classic example of breaking the 1st commandment.
MLD, he opened with “Oh god of our many understandings.” What’s wrong with that?
He almost followed my recommendation from last week when I suggested that he open with “to whom it may concern.”
Prez Elect Obama has invited all kinds of people to participate:
New York – Archbishop Demetrios of America was invited by President-Elect Barack Obama to participate in the inaugural ceremonies in Washington D.C. In particular, on Tuesday Jan. 20, the Archbishop will attend the Inauguration Ceremony on Capitol Hill, from 11:30 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. The next day Wednesday Jan. 21, at 10:00 a.m. Archbishop Demetrios will participate in the Inaugural Ecumenical Prayer Service at the Washington National Cathedral which will be attended by President Barack Obama and Vice President Joseph Biden.
Xenia,
“Archbishop Demetrios will participate in the Inaugural Ecumenical Prayer Service at the Washington National Cathedral ”
Does the EO fight over this, allowing the priests to pray at Ecumenical services? We in the LCMS had a big fight when one of our guys participated at Yankee Stadium after 911.
We don’t like to hold our God up as one of many.
Dread, I am all for information that leads to true godly liberation where there has been shame, ignorance or confusion.
However, I believe that this need to take place in a focused ministry where individual couples can get the encouragement and information in light of their unique and specific marriage from a pastoral team.
That is where the information can be conveyed along with the calls for discretion that arise from agape love and the Holy Spirit enabled self control and wisdom that accompanies it.
I apologize if my emotions muddied the waters. I agree with Vic, and pray that all be enjoy every blessing that God intends.
There is nothing in the advice of these postings by pastors that I object to…. But I am not sorry the information is available online or otherwise… and I will reiterate what I said earlier…
Almost all of this information was already published in Christian books… just without the interactions of testimony…
Anyone object to the books that actually show illustrations… by this I mean Christian books…
So we can change the subject now… I really have nothing to add.
Changing the subject to your Captain, my Captain reference, BD, I graduated from the Dead Poet’s Society school back in the era when it was pretty much as depicted in the movie. So of course it brings back memories.
Pastor Walden gave great insight in “As a pastor, I have grown tired and am heart broken over the areas of sexual sin and “sexual problems”, and of the fact that married couples are running to the professionals instead of being humble and broken before God.”
This is truly something I have dealt with, not necessarily “sexual sin”, though many have thought I was gay because I live a celibate life. But I “run” to professionals because I am in stark terror that if I lean, in any way, for any length of time, for any reason, on the faith group. I will admit I went to a professional to help me, and I am totally ashamed of this, the constant chronic pain I was, still am, dealing with. With in the faith community, expressing such needs, cant be an option, it causes way to much inconvenience. And I do not mean that as an attack on the Church, something I would give my life for, God giving me the strength.
But in the modern evangelical community there is such an almost pathological need to be independent, autonomous, efficient, effective, successful, etc. I have leaned on a Pastor a total of 2 or three times in my past 28 years, I try to keep track of such things. I consider that four or five times way to many. I do what ever I can to never even hint at need, leaning, etc. I have humbled myself, to weeping, basically it was viewed as a joke. Maybe it was, I really dont know.
But it was, still is a constant theme in the faith, dont be a pest. I can honestly say, outside of this blog I have troubled no one with anything other then a pastor saying the memorial service for my sister. I will admit having been troubled by me leaning in such a way. Some may think I drone on this point, but in every single “hassle” I have ever come into contact it has been because I needed. I do try to repent of needing. I was able to get through my sister’s two year battle of cancer and death with out shedding a tear, private tears yes, but public, not a one. Deep down it still tears my gutz out, and I am ashamed of that. I miss her, but dont talk, outside of here, never have talked about it.
I would love to go to a pastor, I would not in the real world as that cant be an option, outside of the Catholic Priest I confessed to some many years ago. But I can say I have been autonomous these many years, other then this blog, I am working in that area.
Oh, brian, how long are you going to allow this one jerk pastor to shade your views of all the wonderful, loving, compassionate pastors in this world?
Why don’t you just say it… the guy was a real jerk and he was extremely cruel to you and he hurt you deeply.
You wrote, ‘I would love to go to a pastor…’ Brian, go. You may be amazed how gracious and kind he is to you. Go… brian.
brian,
It kills me to listen to how much pain you are in over this guy.
We all love you. Go talk to a kind pastor that you know, trust and feel comfortable with. Talk with him, cry or whatever you need to do to get this stuff out. Blessings
Solus it was not one “pastor”, I apologize if I lead that way. It has been a recurring theme in my “christian life”. It may well be me, maybe I am to sensitive etc. But of the many years I have been a “Christian” it was in many ways constant, staying out of the way, dont bother folks etc. I will gladly admit it is in me, I am doing something wrong but it is not one person, it is a recurring echo that is deafening. “Brian go” To be honest and I mean this as no disrespect and I understand your point, am grateful for your kind words etc. This is not an option right now.
The people I speak of are not really jerks, it just seems to be the way things are. I could honestly care less about me, if it would help, God send me to hell, if it granted one of those folks I have been a teacher with some grace. I am not a very clear communicator, but every single phrase, word, comment etc is always related to my students. I will admit I am not clear. But it was not just some “Pastor” I struggle with. I have blown off many whom have spoken things to me that I cant repeat. It is just a constant drum beat of autonomy I struggle with. Maybe I am the only one hearing it. All that aside I do thank you kindly for your gracious words.
Brian,
I am sorry for your pain. You misunderstand me and the context of my statement. That’s OK though…but hear me just a bit.
There are many good men here that would spend much time on the phone with you. Dread, Hopkins, others. I would, if you deemed me safe enough.
Your perception of the church demanding that we be super saints is skewed. Perhaps some Believers expect that. Ignore them Brian. Ignore them.
As a Father pities His children, so the Lord pities us, for he knows we are dust.
Brian, may I encourage you, in faith, to pray for saints that you can commit to, and who will commit to you. Community is so important, and God has people, a pastor, and a church for you.
Blessings…
Bill Walden:
I pray you didn’t get a tone of anger from what I wrote. Yes, I get a bit riled up anytime I think about my father. I’ve forgiven him, but it doesn’t mean I smell roses at the thought of him either.
The sad thing is, I had met a few woman over the years I was crazy for. I could just never allow myself to go that far (marriage) because I truly wrestled with the idea I could would have been a horrible husband/father like he was.
The very idea of cheating made me ill, I’d flare up if I saw someone in public mistreating their child, and porn never was never my thing. Yet still, I wondered if it could have been possible genetically.
Anyhow, so I spent all those years just immersed in either music, work, or study.
Through very “blunt” counsel, and the Holy Spirit’s conviction it just clicked. That kind of fear was contrary to the fruit of the Spirit.
I do respect your convictions.
Brian,
If I recall correctly, you did mention several people who hurt you (in ministry).
I guess, you sound (to me) like you really need a friend to talk with in person. Another man, who loves Christ as much as you do, obviously. You mentioned your sister tonight, I remember the lovely stories you used to share with us, the stories about her… and a few of your friends who passed away.
I hope and pray that God sends you a fine friends whom you can share these stories with and have coffee and get some of these things off your chest. It’s okay to cry… for those we love.
Okay, perhaps they were not “jerks” … but, I do not like the way they treated you and hurt you. So, please forgive me for calling them “jerks”…
You know, Brian, you are such a humble, giving man.
We all struggle with things, Brian. Trust me, you are not alone, so please, don’t feel badly. Reading your posts make me be more compassionate and appreciate those who do the things you do… sorry again for my getting angry at the people who hurt you so deeply. Honestly, if they could read all the notes of yours that I had read, they would hang their heads in shame and cry asking God for forgiveness. I hope they never know how much you have been hurt.
I do pray God does something wonderful in your life so that you feel better in your heart. Blessings
Thank you all for your kind words, I will consider what you said. God bless.
What is clear in all this public talk about s*x and what is right and wrong is that p*rn and the popular video/music media are major factors. Without them the pace and expectations would not be what they are today.
I enjoy movies but what I noticed this holiday season was this, there were no marriages in the films I saw (7 Pounds, Bed Time Stories and Benjamin Button). Romantic s*x (and not so romantic) abounded and yes even in the family picture “Bedtime Stories” there is the implication of unfaithfulness and s*x (they have a Paris Hilton character).
So what do we expect but confusion, conflict and problems in this area. On top of it we have Driscoll pushing women (reference to web site) who are modeling his expectations. It makes me wonder what he watches?
The answer is both men and women need to commit to a life of conflict resolution when they marry. It is part of the deal, “for better or worse,” because these words weren’t just speaking about finances.
I have been staying out of this conversation because I’ve already stated my position on Driscoll and sex in the church.
But I will say this…
It is one thing to have an opinion about Mark Dricoll’s preaching, his style, his philosophy of ministry, etc.
But it is something all together different to judge the man’s motives and his character.
Like most pastors I’m pretty opinionated…just like the other night when I took part in a city wide worship/prayer service. There were many things about the evening I didn’t like (the cheesy stuff coming out of the other pastors mouths, the turn to your neighbor and say something really cheese ball, the repeat after me garbage, the weird prayers, I could go on and on) but I allow myself to question these people’s sincerity or motives it puts me in a bad place.
If you can’t stand Driscoll and Mars Hill I have no problem with that but please don’t pretend that you have a read on his heart because I’m pretty sure that is more offensive than anything Driscoll has to say.
Hi,
Not to distract from all the “sex” talk - but can someone explain to me the term “new Calvinists” as how that relates to SGM….and how that is different from other calvinists. Thanks!
“What Mahaney, Driscoll, Piper and the rest of the new Calvinists promote quickly trickles down to independent churches that parrot what they see their beloved leaders doing.”
of course the same could be said about many others.
The desire within the church to be in fellowship ( be in community, affiliate, denominate, whatever) has produced the illegitimate child of misplaced loyalties in that we become followers and respectors of men rather than of God.
We attach ourselfs to the greatness of other leaders, hoping that it will rub off and that the franchise status will enable our churches to grow. Everything is absorbed and integrated and discernment is thrown out the window.
Ryan,
Cheesball…………… laughed all the way through your post…..
As far as seeing the heart….
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Rave: Being an American on this amazing day of 2009!
Brian,
I do not know what you have been through but I can tell you that most pastors are good men. This might help you to beleive me when I say that: I have been spiritually abused for 20 of my 26 years as a Christian. I have been financially scamed, controlled, and brought to the point of suicide. This was with two different churches. I have also been to two great churches and I am in one now. One that never sees me as a burden and that has given me acceptance and freedom to grow. I now serve wholeheartedly in my church. I am not a burden. But I will say that Jesus said, Come to me all you that are burdened and I will give you rest. There is a rest for you, but you might have to take some risks to find it. I had to take a great risk in going to my new church because my old church follows you around so they can “tell” on you to any new church you attend and make sure they know all your past sin. I took the risk and it was so worth it. Take some risks and get out there and if it doesn’t work out try again. I have to tell you some great words that got me to step out and that was the Church was God’s idea not man’s (upon this rock I will build my church). It is God’s idea - it can’t be all bad - get out there. Most pastors have good hearts and love Christ.
london,
We’ve just changed from one set of power brokers to another….. not much, if anything will change.
Whatever Centy. I’m still proud to be an American today. You can choose not to be if you want…up to you…cause…after all…it’s a free country!!
Butterfly,
Traditionally, Calvinists have usually been part of specific denominations that held to the Westminster Confession of Faith as their standard.
In recent years groups like SGM have risen up that hold to Calvinistic soteriology, but depart from Westminster on many other points of doctrine.
Calvinism has become more mainstream, a process that started in 1973 with J.I.Packers “Knowing God” becoming a best seller and introducing Calvinism to many.
Cent, you are a prophet today.
However, in regards to our country what London says is also true. At least the power brokers have given us freedom to roam and run.
Someday that may be adjusted to a big cage and long leash.
Today, like all inauguration days is a great day - regardless of party affiliations or political thought. It represents the transfer of power in a peaceful and legitimate way that is seen in very few places in the world. It is a time to rejoice.
Drew:
“The answer is both men and women need to commit to a life of conflict resolution when they marry. It is part of the deal, “for better or worse,” because these words weren’t just speaking about finances.”
That ranks in the Top 10 for succinct and on target truth telling on the PP and beyond!
Butterfly,
Traditionally Calvinists usually belonged to denominations that held to the Westminster Confession of Faith.
In recent years Calvinism has become more mainstream and more popular, a process that started in 1973 with J.I. Packers “Knowing God” becoming a huge best seller and exposing many people to Calvinism for the first time.
It gained momentum through people like MacArthur and Piper who were Calvinistic in soteriology but rejected the WCF on other doctrinal points.
These are the “new Calvinists”.
just as a side note…
I stopped raving about being an American many years ago…..
I don’t know if anyone’s still watching the live coverage. If so, can I ask any poetry fans about the ending poem? To me, it’s just droning on & on, monotone, and with no point. But I’m not a poetry fan. How does it rate?
BTW - I loved the John Williams piece. That was great.
I’m not thrilled with President Obama’s speech…but then again, I didn’t expect to be. Congratulations to him anyway.
I was blessed by Rick Warren’s prayer. There was no doubt about it that He was praying to and in the name of the one true God, the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ. And I was blessed by what he prayed for our new president.
May God bless him and may he bless God with his life and depend upon Jesus for his wisdom and strength. Amen
centy,
“I stopped raving about being an American many years ago…..”
You mean for the past 8 yrs?
I haven’t watched any of the inauguration - did Warren give an altar call or did he miss the opportunity?
The recitation of the oath of office by Obama went TERRIBLY wrong. I was sort of cringing as I watched that.
How?
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/262133.html
I noticed that too, Scott. I wonder if it was because he was nervous.
I didn’t see that as something gone terribly wrong, I saw it as nerves.
I think that the Chief Justice should just say the whole oath and then the President just says “yeah, what you said” and be done with it.
The hype and expectation for this inauguration were so hyped, that I guess my expectations were a little too high, that’s all
Just yesterday, a CNN Reporter was suggesting that the words of his inaugural speech would some day be chiseled into marble. After what I just saw, me thinks not.
The oath was choppy, but I thought the speech was amazing.
It appears that it was Justice Roberts who got the oath wrong and that stumbled President O.
Nomans, I’m glad you were inspired, I really am.
MLD, okay let’s blame it on Roberts now
I’m always amazed with inauguration day…what a wonderful country we live in.
I’m with London and MLD –
God bless President Obama and his new administration.
Rom. 13:1
Scott,
http://blogs.abcnews.com/legalities/2009/01/chief-justice-f.html
Nothing can thwart the plans the God has for His church, not even the gates of hell.
Resistance has never killed us, rather it has been the catalyst for growth.
In my opinion, peoples rights are more damaging to the church than opposition.
There is not fear in our future…
It is as sure as our God.
God bless America, this world and our new President Obama. Rick’s prayer was beautiful and very touching, he did a fine job. I’m so glad he mentioned the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus.
Solus, did you like the benediction given by Rev. Lowery?
‘Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get in back, when brown can stick around… when the red man can get ahead, man; and when white will embrace what is right. That all those who do justice and love mercy say Amen. Say Amen’… “
Scott,
“That all those who do justice and love mercy say Amen. Say Amen’… “
Sounds like it is right out of Micah 6:8
He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.
If anyone is interested, I linked to the transcripts for Obama’s speech and Warren’s invocation on my blog:
http://briandblog.com/?p=384
I liked Lowery’s benediction, even more than Warren’s…
There are only, oh, 2,000 or so Scriptures that address justice
and fairness…
Obama suggested today that one of the ways we’re going to make it through the dark economic days ahead is through:
“the selflessness of workers who would rather cut their hours than see a friend lose their job which sees us through our darkest hours.”
I’ll be keeping my eye open for that one.
Scoot
One mans altruism is another mans socialism
Warren said this?
“I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Essa (ph), Jesus,”
Isn’t that a weak statement? Doesn’t that leave open to pluralism “and to whomever has changed your life?”
Why didn’t he make a bold claim “I humbly ask this in the name of THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN CHANGE LIVES…”
Warren weenied out!
I liked everything I heard and saw this morning, all except Aretha Franklin’s hat. And even that had a certain whimsical charm.
I loved Rick Warren’s prayer and I loved PRESIDENT OBAMA’s speech. I am prepared to appreciate all the good in Pres. Obama and pray that God will correct all his mistakes.
Nomans, exactly. What’s that old Beatles tune say? “You say yes, I say no, you say why? I say, I don’t know. You say goodbye and I say hello!”
Charles Stanley had a good point this morning. Whether we like the new president or not, he is in place by God’s design. We need to pray for him, whether we like him personally or not.
God knows what He is doing, and I don’t recall Him asking for advice (mine or others). I have a tendency to grant entirely too much credit to man, and forget that God is in charge. I may not agree with President Obama’s politics, but I pray that God will stand by him and direct him to His glory. I pray that he will make good, Christ-centered decisions. I pray that he will surround himself with good and godly men and women. I pray that his family will be blessed by this opportunity.
I pray that he can help our country through a rough road ahead. I pray for his health and safety.
Proud to be an American TonyP.
“Warren weenied out!
maybe Ken Graves was right………………….
Reading the words of some who choose to pick apart every word make be grateful that I no longer pastor a church!
Warren didn’t weenie out. He extolled the sovereignty of God and displayed a joyous celebration of Obama being elected as President of these United States.
Rev. Lowery on the other hand, was still playing the race card even after a black man had just been sworn in as President.
Bob,
LOL.
No matter what your political persuasion, we’re commanded to pray for the new president. Can I get an amen?
Xenia,
That was quite a hat!
I celebrate the system our forefathers left in place. Not a perfect one, best the best one men could devise. I marvel at the peaceful transfer of power our Constitutional Republic Government affords us. There’s nothing like it, nor has there ever been since the days of men.
Scott, I agree with your take on Lowery. It showed his lack of understanding beyond his own world. His statement was presumptious, prejudiced and offensive to white people.
Lutheran
Maybe I was unclear……………I am troubled by those who choose to pick apart the words of Rick Warren. I appreciated his prayer!
centy,
White people aren’t allowed to be offended…
Centy and Scott
I have come to the conclusion that in no way can I understand the plight of a black person in this country. It has taken 4 Constitutional Amendments to give them freedoms that white people enjoy. Every time one amendment was ratified, some white people found a loophole until the next amendment was ratified. And bigotry remains. I understand that all the laws in the world will not be able to end hatred, but I understand those who have been on the receiving end of it enjoying their day.
I grew up in a home that taught and verbalized the very bigotry that I now abhor. I find myself torn…….while I definitely have disagreements with our (I did say our) new President, another part of me is thankful that I lived to see this day.
Yes, Lowery’s prayer might have showed a lack of understanding beyond his own world, but maybe some of us need to be thankful that we did not have to live in his world!
Bob,
I picked at Warren’s words because Scott was picking at Lowery’s.
MLD, okay, so now you’re blaming it on me? LOL!
Bob,
I do not want marginalize the struggle that many minorities have dealt with just to live in this country. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood, served in the military with many friends who are minorities, I have worked for minority owned businesses and a few times found myself to be the token white person in the company.
Lowery’s statement was insensitive and stereotypical and it is fuel to perpetuate prejudicial attitudes and actions. I don’t want to dissect it any more than that.
centy…anytime I can make someone laugh I’m pretty happy about that.
I didn’t listen to all of RW’s prayer, but I did catch the part where he mentioned all the translated names of Jesus & the Lord’s prayer. I thought it was great…sure circumvented all the PC pressure that I’m sure he got about perhaps “not saying the name of Jesus.” I’m not sure he said it in English, but he sure said it in 4-5 other languages.
Sure is a lot of paranoia coming out of the PNW this morning.
What does mentioning Jesus’ name actually accomplish here? Did it guarantee that God heard the prayer like the magic word? Did it convert someone by hearing the name? Did it reassure people that Jesus is an American?
Was Rick Warren more effective than Kurt Warner?
Ok nobody really took this on so I will…
Yesterday the sex-blog talk left some of us advocating information and some advocating greater seeking of God…not enemies I might add.
HOWEVER… advocating information does not mean to me advocating the particular information that was given. The sight is named after a condition given to female sex addicts. The sight goes on to mildly advocate (really with all the information given it is a tacit advocacy)practices that are more than questionable. I expected someone to take up the battle. None did so I will speak the other side briefly.
On the particular site a whole series of education principles was given for what can only be called sodomy. Guidelines on how to prepare for the act were punctuated with health tips because it does carry with it some serious risks. Anyway… a Christian site has no business advocating practices that make the participation in sodomy acceptable and agreeable. This is the kind of egregiousness that was offending Michael …I believe….and I want to be clear is offensive to me as well.
Further I think it is destructive to holy and righteous goals. Enough said about it. My overall point is that real information is needed…for very righteous reasons…such as saving marriages. However, the information highway has many dead ends and cautionary holy leadership is needed. Remember the tree of knowledge of good and evil is death.
As for the inauguration… sheesh how horrible to completely blow the swearing in. I can just see the Internet postings about how we REALLY do not have a president and that type of thing is just nectar to conspiracy fools.
Dr. Ruth Dread
Stop trying to throw cold water on such a memorable and historic day, MLD!
MLD….
Actually Kurt had a better day… and represented Jesus much better.
Touchdown Jesus Dread
For those of you follow the SGM, Esther, SGC Chesapeake story, Esther emailed various “apostles” this morning and asked me to post her email.
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/20/steve-shank-dave-harvey-gene-emerson-cj-mahaney/
The poop hits the fan in Chesapeake on Sunday night. Please pray for a God honoring resolution.
MLD -
“What does mentioning Jesus’ name actually accomplish here? Did it guarantee that God heard the prayer like the magic word? Did it convert someone by hearing the name? Did it reassure people that Jesus is an American?”
Give the guy a break already. I’m not a RW fan either, but at least it was a Christian prayer. It wasn’t like V. Gene’s the other day…at least you knew who RW was praying to.
Besides, I would have thought liturgical Christians of all people would appreciate him leading out in the Lord’s Prayer.
“We may avoid this (sinners) place by assuming the role of correctors. With our doctrines neatly tied up we are evangelical experts with a keen sense of theological smell. We love to correct but not be corrected. Like the Pharisees of old we keep ourselves out of the sinner’s place by putting others in. We are so full of knowledge that we have no room for a broken and contrite heart. Yet even Henry Martyn, great saint as he was, recorded in his diary, “I have resolved never to reprove another except I experience at the same time a particular contrition of heart!” He found he needed to live in the sinners place.”
-From “Reality” by Stanley Voke (out of print)
Tim,
I did appreciate the Lord’s Prayer. Maybe Rick is a closet liturgical guy!
Dread, actually the conspiracy will probably come from those who will infer that Roberts (Bush appointee) was just trying to make Barack like a tool
Here are some sweet words on Inauguration Day from the World
Nutcase Daily — always nice to put yourself in the place of God,
Who says plainly in His Word to pray for those in leadership:
“That’s why I do not hesitate today in calling on godly Americans to pray that Barack Hussein Obama fail in his efforts to change our country from one anchored on self-governance and constitutional republicanism to one based on the raw and unlimited power of the central state.
It would be folly to pray for his success in such an evil campaign.
I want Obama to fail because his agenda is 100 percent at odds with God’s. Pretending it is not simply makes a mockery of God’s straightforward Commandments.
So you will not see me joining in the ritual of affirming Obama and his mission in public or private prayer this week – or any other week.”
Here’s the entire putrid article:
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86469
Lute -
I saw that Farah headline yesterday. I’m wondering if Farah has ever read 1 Tim 2.
Maybe MD needs to make his wife the deaconess in charge of the website.
Tim,
You totally missed the point. I had no problem with RWs prayers - it was benign and will be forgotten by all who heard it except God.
My dig was at all the people who seemed to have gotten dizzy that he mentioned Jesus. I guess the question to them would be, why?
On the link posted at Driscoll’s site…
There is a great need in the church for sex education…my experience, growing up, has been that the church in general has not wished to discuss it under any circumstances and that finding good, quality Biblical teaching on human sexuality was like looking for Playboy must have been back in the ’50s.
But there is such a thing as going too far. I cannot go as far as Driscoll has, nor can I recommend it to others, without much reservation.
Tim,
I guess he doesn’t need to. He knows better than God.
Over at the SGM site … that posting by Esther… ok… I read two of her rambling letters… honestly I ended up skimming some… I have been at this a LOOONG time… something is not right about that stuff.
I can guarantee you that I do not embrace the way those guys govern people in their church…but … I do not like what I am reading.. it simply is not right.
MLD -
Maybe because so many Christians shy away from the name of Christ when it counts. RW, of all people (Mr. Seeker Sensitive himself!), actually said a blatantly Christian prayer.
Personally, I just don’t get the nit-picking with him today.
BD~
So Glad you spoke briefly to the other side.
Dread, you lost me…are you critical of the letter or what the writer is describing?
Tim,
Like I said earlier, I started it in jest when Scott picked apart Lowery’s prayer.
Lute -
I actually feel sorry for the guy. If I’m being generous, I have to believe that Farah’s promoting what he thinks is righteousness. Yet in his zeal, he’s placed himself on the opposite side of the clear directive of the Scriptures, and he tries to twist Romans 13 to support his point of view.
He’s so anti-Obama that he can’t understand what he claims to uphold. Truly sad.
In terms of Farhah’s article as I read it yesterday.
#1 I knew that it would raise Lute’s blood pressure and he would react with a regurgitating rebuke.
#2 I see where Farah is in error regarding ITim.2 specifically in terms of “giving thanks”. We are to give thans that God does raise up men in a system of order. We can give thanks and pray for these men specifically that they would govern as honest servants who labor for the benefit of others and that they would recognize Christians as those who indeed can function as salt and light in our society.
#3 I see Farah reactinng to the “Christian cheerleader” mentality that we have to pray for every little aspect of their lives in a “positive” way.
#4: The goal in ITim.2 is that we would be live out our transformation in a way ordered by peace where our reverence and deference for God’s rule takes great precedence over the actions and dictates of a temporary governing structure and rulers.
Living in a peaceable way ordered in terms of godliness does not mean we have to be mindless cheerleaders with plastic smiles jumping up and down in the stadium of political correctness.
MLD -
I’m hearing it in all kinds of places (beyond this blog). Some folks just want to complain.
Sorry if I’m nitpicking the current nitpicking.
Scott,
I slipped out as my hubby treated me to lunch.
Scott, I missed that… but, I suppose if a person experienced all that he has in his lifetime he may have a right to make such a comment… and we can take it, right?
Oh, I loved Aretha Franklin’s hat! She is so beautiful. A lovely voice.
MLD, you are misrepresenting me and I demand apology immediately!
TonyP… I am proud to be an American too. I love Sean H.
MLD… alter call… lol You are being a tiny bit mean today.
Scott,
“Rev. Lowery on the other hand, was still playing the race card even after a black man had just been sworn in as President.”
Would someone post on my blog to see if the comments are messed up or if no one truly is commenting at all
Did you hear all those people singing “nah nah nah nah hey hey hey goodbye” as George Bush was taking his seat today at the inauguration? Nice, eh? A new era of hope, respect and non-partisanship has begun today!
Vic -
Here’s the meat of Farah’s point:
“I want Obama to fail because his agenda is 100 percent at odds with God’s. Pretending it is not simply makes a mockery of God’s straightforward Commandments.”
What Farah forgets in his twisting of Rom 13 is that Paul wrote that during the pre-Christian Roman Empire. Christians were a persecuted minority, and yet he still exhorted the church to pray for the government that God has placed over them.
Does that mean we need to pray that Obama gets all of his agenda passed? Of course not. But ought Christians pray that President Obama would make Godly decisions? Absolutely.
There’s a world of difference between praying for someone to fail & praying that they’d follow Christ.
MLD,
“Martin Luther’s Disciple
Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am
What does mentioning Jesus’ name actually accomplish here? Did it guarantee that God heard the prayer like the magic word? Did it convert someone by hearing the name? Did it reassure people that Jesus is an American?”
MLD, People heard the Word of God, His name… now come on, admit you are wrong. Millions of people heard God’s Word being spoken and learned a prayer and how to pray. Confess…
MLD, so? What’s the problem with what I wrote? That’s what I believe he was doing. Don’t you respect my right to have an opinion too?
MLD wrote, “Tim,
You totally missed the point. I had no problem with RWs prayers - it was benign and will be forgotten by all who heard it except God.”
MLD, Oh, Baloney!
I hear ya Tim. Other factors that cloud the waters. Emperors were not elected in Rome by the people; and the Roman system with the mighty hand of the military was ingrained and in place.
We have a newly elected President who professes Christianity in an ordered governmental system that is governed by the people and for the people which is being transitioned to something other than that.
This newly elected President espouses not only perspectives but will render decisions that will continue to ensure the destruction of life at it’s inception and derail liberties afforded us for centuries.
I again disagree with and depart from Farahs’ revolutionary mindset, but I understand the other extreme he is reacting against.
M…L…D,
Be honest, and tell us the whole truth, how many hot dogs did you eat at Costco this morning?
Scott,
“Don’t you respect my right to have an opinion too?”
Of course I do - that’s why I didn’t comment on your comment and offered my comment on the other preacher boy.
Solus,
Do you remember what Greg Laurie’s prayer was about at the RNC convention? (no Googling). No one listens and no one remembers.
I have a nephew who went to the inauguration with his class - when he gets back in a couple of days, I will ask him what RW said and see if he listened.
Solus,
No hot dogs. I am on a diet - I need to get skinny like BrianD and Tony P are doing.
My daughter signed me up for an 8K run with her towards the end of Feb. I am in training to lose 25lbs and be a lean, mean running machine by the date.
6 lbs down since Thursday. Costco dogs are sin!
Eric Hoffman….if you are still reading…thanks for the response.
Glad that you got that good counsel and that the lie has been disarmed in your life.
Dread….well said about the dangers of the information highway and about some of the particulars on that site. Thanks for that.
Blessings all…
MLD, you’re losing weight? Now that’s “Change I can believe in!”
MLD,
The sin is not in the dog, but in the glutton which consumes it!!!
BTW I’m on low carb, so hot dogs are A-OK
Vic,
Revolutionary?
Revolutionary?
I can’t believe anyone would even attempt to defend this crap.
Thank goodness for freedom of speech.
Vic, meet George Orwell. Peace is freedom.
Revolutionary: No —
RE_ _ ARD_D
Regarding the need for all this specific positional s@x instruction, why didn’t Paul the Apostle see fit to add these instructions into his epistles? Especially to the Corinthians, they lived in one of the most s@x driven cultures known to man.
I still contend this is being driven by men, not women. Most men’s bubble is completely popped when they discover that s@x is why down on the list of things women consider most important to them, somewhere below doing the dishes
Tony P,
“The sin is not in the dog, but in the glutton which consumes it!!! ”
It sounds better my way.
Lute: If you listen carefully. . . Both sides are accusing each other of submitting to and fulfilling the Orwellian prophecy.
I love how conservative/rightwing Christias play the victim card:
“Wow, the culture sucks — might be persecuted…would the church make it?”
In the next breath, they’re crapping their pants over a Democratic president.
Can’t have it both ways.
Lute you forgot to include Fundagelical and R_T_RDED.
I’m having fun with you.
Depenze vic,
MLD,
I don’t recall listening to Greg’s prayer. But, when God’s Word is spoken, I do believe some will listen and remember and the Holy Spirit will touch them. Such a prayer may cause some to go home today and open their Bibles and/or hear the Lord and respond.
Good for you about the race and weight loss!
I love how Liberal/leftwing Christians cry wolf when someone points out the obvious, demand that everyone jump on the bus, however, spent 8 years ripping on their President George Bush as a Warmonger, Dufus and Village Idiot.
Can’t have it both ways.
MLD,
Whatever gets you through your diet….but hot dogs are gooooooood.
Be careful, extreme right wingers…on your way to obscurity and marginalization, you just might find, in the words of Mr.
Larry Norman:
“You’ve been left behind…”
Lute,
Got a rave amongst the rants?
Lute: Just let it all hang out man…. On the other hand.. .
None of us can fly on one wing whether it be the left or right; or we will all be left behind.
Brian D
I just do not think we have enough information here to take a firm stand and I am uncomfortable with a great deal of the revelations that Esther has made…
Like I said I have been a pastor for a long time and have been the object of accusations. Something bugs… someone is working very hard to control how this thing is postured.
I would probably not answer critics either on that stuff… way too many pitfalls…
Thanks for your take, Dread…
The only thing I’m certain of is that this isn’t my fight…and that whatever wrongs are being done here, I want them to be made right.
And that I know people who hold Mahaney and Harris both in high regard…and this whole deal gives me pause on account of that alone.
Just for fun, I thought some of these Bush statements were pretty cool - remember, I funnin’
‘The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country.’
- George W. Bush
‘If we don’t succeed, we run the risk of failure.’
- George W. Bush
‘One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that one word is ‘to be prepared’.’
-George W. Bush
‘I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future.’
- George W. Bush
‘The future will be better tomorrow.’
- George W. Bush
‘We’re going to have the best educated American people in the world.’
- George W. Bush
‘I stand by all the misstatements that I’ve made.’
- George W Bush
‘We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe.’
- George W. Bush
‘Public speaking is very easy.’
- George W. Bush
‘A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls.’
- George W. Bush
‘I have opinions of my own — strong opinions — but I don’t always agree with them.’
-George Bush
‘We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur.’
- George W. Bush
‘For NASA, space is still a high priority.’
-George W. Bush
‘Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children.’
-George W. Bush
‘It isn’t pollution that’s harming the environment. It’s the impurities in our air and water that are doing it.’
- George W. Bush
MLD,
My personal favorites are (and I like Bush):
“You’re working hard to put food on your family.”
and
‘Too many OB-GYNs aren’t able to practice their love with women all across this country.’
These bring a smile to my face.
Thanks for the laughs, guys.
Good times
“‘The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country.’
- George W. Bush”
lol!!!!!!
he probably did more to contribute to a democratic sweep last novemeber than we know……………
If I were one of Bush’s aides, I would have told him to say nothing more than hello unless he had a teleprompter.
He’s just a “good ole guy”, and my guess is returning to Texas is something he has looked forward to for months.
I voted for Bush both times. It seems as though he listened too much to Chaney and Rumsfeld. The thing I appreciated most about Bush was his refusal to fly the political windsock before making a decision. Public opinion polls did not govern our country during his administration. I admire that!
Isn’t the teleprompter something most of our last several President’s (including our new one) needed? Except for Bill Clinton. He can ad-lib (bull-crap you) with the best of ‘em!
I suspect before our current President’s run is over, there will be a vault full of mis-speak(s), literary blunders and gaffs. Thousands of “Uhs.” I can guarantee that
Bob are you saying that he listened to Cheney and Rumsfeld too much but that was better than listening to the people?
MLD
Not sure that Donald and Dick gave the best advice. He should have listened more to Powell. Maybe even Bill and Hillary.
MLD…
You said, Warren said this?
“I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Essa (ph), Jesus,”
Isn’t “Isa” Jesus Muslim name? and also when Mr. Warren was praying, it seemed he quoted the Koran ……
and evangelical christians are OK with this?
Yes.. I agree… he “weineed out”.
what do you think?
maybe this brings clarity to my above comments..
Rick Warren in Inauguration prayer: “You are the compassionate, the merciful one…”
Following right after “Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.”
“The compassionate, the merciful” is, of course, a reference to the invocation at the beginning of every chapter of the Qur’an except one: Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim, “In the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful.”
Making sure everyone feels included — terrific. But the prayer indicates yet again that there is little general awareness of the reasons why the term “Judeo-Christian-Islamic values” is a misnomer.
Wellgrounded,
He probably accidentally picked up his notes from his Muslim conference a couple of weeks ago.
“And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth”
I think Rick Warren said all he was permitted to say. He did fine.
Rant: I am tired of hearing how the troops in Iraq are fighting for our right to vote. No, they are not. America’s right to vote was never threatened by Iraq or even Afghanistan. The last war the US fought for American freedoms was the Civil War and half the country was on the wrong side for that one.
Re: Warrens prayer
I think he took into consideration non-believers who are seeking spirituality very much the same way that Paul did.
Acts 17:22-23
So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious.
“For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.
Sometimes I think we forget that judgment begins in the house of the Lord.
When dealing with the unregenerate, it is kindness that will reveal God in us, to them.
Warren was not praying for a Christian nation…
He was praying for a post-Christian nation.
(Unless you count WW2, I suppose.)
Well said, Norman.
RW is kinda hard to nail down. I had the problem last year when he spoke at several Synagogue 3000 events and told the crowds that he was not there to speak to them about Christ, because he had too many Christians to talk to. (I never understood that one - why does he need to evangelize Christians?) He told them that he was there to help them make more Jews and he was teaching them Purpose Driven Judaism.
Now a couple of weeks ago, he was doing the same with the Muslims.
Thank you, beautiful friend of many names
Warren was praying and not necessarily preaching.
His prayer was sincere and truthful and was a testimonial; referring to the one who “changed my life” rather than the lame prayers that ask God to do something for us materially, ignoring our need for Him to do something about us.
He understood the universal recognition of Christ, addressed Him personally as a Redeemer and ended His prayer demonstrating that He was under Jesus authority in repeating the disciples prayer. “Our Father . . .”
The content of His prayer can be used by us in conversations with the diverse and changing cultural demographics of our country. We can fill in the details.
I am going to try and use it as a conversation starter.
“with” s/b “within”.
Nomans great post and prophetic as to where our nation stands in regards to Christ. Yes judgment begins at the House of God. Did you see the Barna poll that said that 1 in 3 Christians believed that Jesus sinned.
Oh Vic…
How sad.
Anyone notice Dick Cheney in the wheelchair today –
resembled Mr. Potter?
is there a way to email Michael who runs this site?
Thanks!
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
Nomans
You are correct that Warren was praying for a post Christian nation. This changing of the guard between President Bush and President Obama represented that cultural change.
Bush, was the last of the old regime, Obama the first of the new that doesn’t not necessarily adhere to the God of the bible. Please realize that is not a critique of President Obama but a commentary on the state of the union. The president reflects the attitude of America and most in this post christian culture we live in. We acknowledge a God but one made after our own image.
We are in interesting times
IMHO,
Even though Bush recognizes the God of the bible, I believe we have been a post-Christian nation for some time…
I still could never bring myself to the place where I would feel comfortable passing judgment on where Obama stands with God.
For quite sometime after I chose Christ back, it wasn’t plainly evident in my lifestyle or choices.
Interesting times indeed!
Dick Cheney looked liked Mr. Potter in a wheelchair? No, he looked like a man that was in excruciating pain from having pulled a muscle in his back. Something I can relate to as a few weeks ago I pulled an abdominal muscle and could hardly walk.
Noman
yes, I agree. My comments were not in reference to either man’s character but their world view. I am praying and supportive of our new president but I think that much of the hope many have is that not only has there been a change of presidents but ideologies.
Yes, we have been post Christian for quite some time but it took a while for the executive office to catch up. Now the transfer is complete and people will be free to accomplish the American agenda: “The Pax Americana. And it is my opinion that anything that upsets that whether right or wrong, will be deemed dangerous.
But what do I know? Im just a pastor
And a wonderful pastor at that…
BTW Listen to the rhetoric of the news people. “He’s the mark of a new era with new ideals” Tom Brokaw
“The axis is beginning to tilt…it’s a new era”–Brian Philips NBC
Nomans
Aaaaawwwwweeeeee shucks
Didn’t GW refer to an “axis of evil?” Maybe…well…you know…
Listen to the chants from around the world
O -BA -MA…..O -BA -MA….HO -SA–NNA…HO-SA –NNA (Save now)
OK I know it’s a stretch and I wrote this tounge in cheek but he is considered to be the messiah–the savior of all of our problems.
Let’s see about George Bush and the Bible - from his ABC interview Dec 8th; I believe that Bush is a Christian, but a pretty dim bulb.
Steve, are you going to have Bush out to teach a Bible study.
MCFADDEN: Is it literally true, the Bible?
BUSH: You know. Probably not … No, I’m not a literalist, but I think you can learn a lot from it, but I do think that the New Testament, for example is … has got … You know, the important lesson is “God sent a son.”
MCFADDEN: So, you can read the Bible and not take it literally. I mean you can — it’s not inconsistent to love the Bible and believe in evolution, say.
BUSH: Yeah, I mean, I do. I mean, evolution is an interesting subject. I happen to believe that evolution doesn’t fully explain the mystery of life and …
MCFADDEN: But do you believe in it?
BUSH: That God created the world, I do, yeah.
MCFADDEN: But what about …
BUSH: Well, I think you can have both. I think evolution can — you’re getting me way out of my lane here. I’m just a simple president. But it’s, I think that God created the Earth, created the world; I think the creation of the world is so mysterious it requires something as large as an almighty, and I don’t think it’s incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution.
MLD
I am not commenting on Bushes Christianity…simply that America has officially made the transition from a Christian nation to a post Christian. The last domino to fall was the presidency.
Bushes theology represents a little of both world views. He represented the country in transition. Again, the change is complete.
I am not a pundit..I am just a pastor who deals with the change in the Christian world every day.
Government was never designed to be our answer…
It is the backdrop of the church, not the for-front.
Jesus made that clear.
Like I said earlier;
Nothing can thwart Gods plan for His body.
If the church can thrive under Nero & Hadrian, it can certainly thrive under Obama
The markets couldnt even rally in celebration to the new tune of change
“The Dow’s showing was its worst ever for an Inauguration Day.”
We need to make tough choices,
and yet they spend 150 million on an inauguration party?
The indulgence has only just begun
No
Amen that because God is in control of world affairs not governments.And if you believe the bible what the bible teaches and are not Amil there are difficult times ahead for Jews and christians.
Now that comment ought to piss a few people off!!!
Got booted from posting on Pete’s blog…..:( deserved it but hurts anyway dang it. Anyway, here’s what I tried to post…
Rick Warren is my newest hero. In about 10 seconds he went from beloved former pastor to superhero. Folk were “afraid” he’d mention Jesus. DID HE MENTION JESUS!!!!! My fellow non-heteros will be in serious trouble with me if they dare criticize him for QUITE awhile! This man who went from door to door, sharing the Gospel, sharing Jesus, LOVING folk and building a church on such folk….Rick Warren, a self-described “nerd” and he gets to pray the invocation at the inauguration of our first black president……and he mentions Jesus……just a bit. YAY, Rick!
Am I No?
Silly Fide…
You are going to stir up trouble NOW???
After we have survived a day of political speak without any conflict?
Kat!
How are you?
I have been praying for you…
<3 N
My flavor of A-millism believes the world will get worse before the Lord returns. It’s the post-mils who expect everything to get better.
Catie Couric interview
This was more than the election of a president but the beginning of a whole new way
Actress Cicily Tyson quoting a line from a movie she was in “He’s the one”
Obama
said his presidency marks the end of the petty grievances that have crippled this nation. Can any one tell me what those petty grievances are? Could they be the Christian ideals this country was built upon?
My Christian world hasn’t changed.
My God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
He has given us a template for how to survive in the “wilderness” and maybe if things get bad enough people will actually pay attention to it.
I utterly loathe politics.
Michael
and neither has mine but we are left overs from a prior era…I guess. Soon we will be gone
I agree with Michael’s post 100 percent.
Steve,
Can you list for me how your church has been affected by this post Christian change?
I will guarantee you that when I go to my church on Sunday, nothing will be different, except one of the prayers will change from “guide and bless our president, George Bush” to “guide and bless our president Barack Obama.” The Liturgy will remain the same.
The unconverted hostile unbelievers in this nation have always been so and remain today. I think that it is funny since most, if not all of the praying these past couple of days has been from Christian ministers.
Where are you getting your information? I remember Jerry Falwell crying about the same thing in 1978 and Billy Graham doing the same in 1958 and Willian Jennings Bryant doing the same in the 1920s.
Steve, we will not be gone! Have some faith! We may need to go underground, but the gates of hell are not going to prevail, not today and not ever.
I’ve been reading over the body of that inaugural address. Obama sounded just like that saber rattling Bush a couple of times. I wonder if some of those top secret briefings he’s been able to view over the past few weeks has had an effect on him?
Amen, Michael!
Scott, yep, and I bet he now knows what’s hidden in Area 51.
“I utterly loathe politics.” Michael, since when?
Area 51? What’s that?
He probably now knows who was on the Grassy Knoll, too.
God always has a remnant…always.
I am at perfect peace knowing God raises up rulers and He takes them down.
I will keep doing what I’m called to do, just like I was doing when the last president was elected and hope to be doing when the next one is sworn in.
Oh, I see Xenia, you’re trying to make me look like an extreme nut case. Thanks.
“God has covenanted to care for His people and He is most pleased when in the face of temporal difficulties they turn to Him in faith to rescue them.
Should the prophecies of persecution and economic disaster come to fruition, have we prepared ourselves and our people to trust God?”
Michael
“Nothing can thwart Gods plan for His body.” Nomans
Those words are certainly appreciated especially in the wisdom they were derived
We as believers need to recalibrate upon the things that are most important.
More and more we will be seeing,
Those who serve themselves, under the guise of serving others
clouds carried about by the winds,
late autumn trees without root
stars for whom is reserved blackness and darkness forever
those who walk according to their own lusts
who mouth great swelling words
flattering people to gain their own agenda and advantage
“But you beloved,
Build yourselves up in the most holy faith
praying in the Holy Spirit
Keep yourselves in the Love of God
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ
unto eternal life”
No Scott, I was agreeing with you and then wondering what other things he knows now that he didn’t know last week. Seriously, I was agreeing with you. Sorry it came out otherwise. Forgive me.
What else can you accuse me of inferring? How about radio transmissions from Mars being transmitted through people’s tooth fillings?
MLD: “Where are you getting your information? I remember Jerry Falwell crying about the same thing in 1978 and Billy Graham doing the same in 1958 and Willian Jennings Bryant doing the same in the 1920s.”
Wow, MLD…I knew you were old, but, you remember the 20’s!!! Wow!
Night all.
Sasquatch?
Xenia, okay. I’ll take you at your word.
Amen, Amen and Amen, Michael
The Philadelphia Project?
Scott, what about the UFOs?
The one-world Beast computer in Brussels, Belgium?
SSHHH!
black helicopters everywhere…
But, you can only hear them if you are wearing your tin foil hat.
P.S. Amen, beautiful sis
So how is the Obama thing any different than when Bill Clinton took office in 1993. He was liberal (moved towards the center as time went on) and had control of both Houses and the Court.
And the Christians went nuts back then too - and we survived.
666 secretly imbedded in barcodes?
MLD, I remember that.
Dan Quayle said election night that everything would be okay. Christians still went nuts
BrianD, I remember Quayle’s speech. He said something like “If the Democrats run the country as well as they ran their campaign, we’ll be ok.” I thought that was pretty gracious of him.
I vaguely remember that, Xenia.
I think we’ll be okay this time around, too.
Rant, This place isn’t the same without dusterino AKA dusty! I’ll have to have a stern talk with the young lady!
Rave, I’m shallow and I admit it but I sure am stoked Jack Bauer is back!
I have a Salem Kirban, Constance Cumby, and various prophecy books in my library! Let the bidding begin.
God bless!
I actually picked up a Guy hitchiking in Nevada back in the late 70’s. The first thing he did was try to turn the radio on. When I asked him why he was doing that, he told me that he had to receive a message from the C.I.A. through the radio transmissions.
OK OK
The Jerry Falwell remarks…The beast…Brussells…666
Go ahead make me out to be a knuckle dragging fundamentalist. But I think things will begin to change and hat it means to be a Christian will change too. We are already seeing the shift. Kimball observed of te younn American “We like Jesus but not the church”
It’s just begun. The Jes they “like” is any thing like the Jesus of the bible. He resembles more of a gnostic Jesus
I have a typing impediment BTW
“…Kimball observed of young Americans “they like Jesus but not the church”
Steve…it’s those knuckles dragging.
Steve,
“He resembles more of a gnostic Jesus”
Is that the cultures fault? Is it the government’s fault?
Or is it the fault of crappy preachers/pastors/teachers?
What you described is the crumbling of the church from within - NOT any act of our culture or governments.
We have met the enemy, and it is us.
Steve,
I find this very frustrating.
We are focusing on our negative perceptions and fears instead of wrapping the Word of God around ourselves and walking in peace and confidence that God will care for His people.
Maybe I’m in gross error, but this fixation on temporal events is deadly to spiritual and emotional health in my opinion.
AllI am saying is with Obama, the transition to a post christian culture is complete. This country was built by men of varying doctrines but a faith in the absolute reality of the bible. That is not the case today. Again, Obama, while I am sure is a good man, and I will support and pray for him, represent the end of an era (his words)and the beginning of a new one where we are not driven by biblical values but individual freedoms
I think Steve is making an observation about history, and it’s a valid observation. Before a certain point in time, America was a certain way (Christian?) but now we have fully entered into a new era (post-Christian.) This is probably true although I am not one who believes the US (or any nation) is a “Christian” nation, but Steve’s making a good point. We are in a new historical classification, possibly.
“This country was built by men of varying doctrines but a faith in the absolute reality of the bible.”
Poppycock.
That mythology is not only historically inaccurate it’s utterly irrelevant.
Preach the Word, love your people and rest in the will of a sovereign God.
MLD
Maybe it is bad preaching. You are preaching to the choir on that one! But what came first’ bad preaching or a call for more self serving sermons?
Michael I believe God is in control and no world government capable of derailing his plan (I am very Calvinist in my understanding of sovereignty. It’s the issue of election I can’t quite wrap my brain around yet and even then I believe in 1 Jn 5:1 that he does the conceiving and the birthing)
But I still believe this election marks the end of a transition in culture that has been taking place for quite some time.
But I’ve said all I need to say. Anything more would be argumentative. So I’ll shut up
Thank you beautiful Nomans!
My heart is heavy today… I grieve for the direction of this nation.
As if sacrifice is going to solve our problems.
The moral fiber of this nation continues to unravel.
Lies and deception are becoming the norm for the sake of gain,
throwing more money into the system will not counteract the systemic poison.
We have entered a new era, though. When I was at the university last year, a depressingly large percentage of the kids in the classes didn’t understand biblical references. That is to say, if we were studying an old Christian mosaic of, say, Daniel in the Lion’s Den, a good number of kids didn’t know the story at all. This is a new development. When you tell someone the Gospel these days, you have to start from scratch.
X
That’s what I am saying. thanks for that. I am not a conservative wrapping my christianity in the Republican party and thus saying now that the democrats are in power we’re sunk. I am saying there has been a changing of the guard
Sounds like the Country as it moved west. Once we got out of the colonies and the eastern states, the west was built on individual freedoms.
I don’t know where you get Obama’s lack of faith or that he is not personally guided by that faith. Heck they all went to church this morning. Now, they may not have been thinking of much in the spiritual realm, but culturally they are maintaing that”Christian” image.
If what you are saying is true, they would have foregone ALL of the religious trappings of the inauguration - no church service today, no service at the National Cathedral, no pastors praying etc. I think that you are pretty wrong here.
Nite all. Thankful for my Jerry Falwell night light in my room. I feel safe
Hopkins…focus on what you should be focusing on would ya??
A new president = new joke potential
Quit being such a gloomy gus
Xenia,
Half the kids in the universities today are from India and Asia - so yes, they are week on the Christian Bible stories.
Michael,
“fixation on temporal events is deadly to spiritual and emotional health in my opinion.”
A “fixation” would likely not be helpful,
But isnt there a balance? To have spiritual and emotional health one should also be aware of the realities, and the current conditions of our times.
In congruence to Seek God in light of the awareness of our times?
MLD, these were white kids.
Wellgroundedfaith -
“Isn’t “Isa” Jesus Muslim name? and also when Mr. Warren was praying, it seemed he quoted the Koran ……”
Shouldn’t we give RW the benefit of the doubt & assume he thought that “Isa” was Jesus’ Arabic name rather than a specific Muslim name? I’ve heard Arabic Christians refer to Jesus by “Isa” as well. (I don’t know if that’s the general designation for Him, but that’s what I’ve heard.)
When did we stop believing the best about Christians?
Rave:
The great people of Alaska for unveiling this work of art.
http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=9698958
(everyone in the PNW who are freezing their bums off during the current warming trend will like this)
Sister Christian,
My heart was heavy too earlier this morning, but after I listened to the prayers and speeches (and some prayer of my own) the heaviness lifted and my focus is on trusting God. I trust that everything will fall into place as God wills.
Xenia,
“MLD, these were white kids.”
Where did you go to college, Bob Jones University?
Sis,
No, I don’t think so.
We should be way out of balance on the side of knowing, understanding, and believing the word of God that applies to any temporal situation.
What i see is people watching TV and listening to the radio and believing that those reports are the last word.
They’re not.
They are temporal, temporary situations that God is in complete control over.
People are way out of balance in the time and effort they devote to knowing Fox news instead of God’s word.
Balance is very overrated…
I just went out back and yelled to Mrs MLD to “dig that bunker faster!”
Steve, you have a Jerry Falwell night light? I have a Dr. James Dobson one. Still works after all these years. Sometimes I change up and use my Jimmy Swaggart one too.
Tim,
“Shouldn’t we give RW the benefit of the doubt & assume he thought that “Isa” was Jesus’ Arabic name rather than a specific Muslim name?”
That’s more of a problem than the one Steve was peddling. Why are we so damned afraid to speak English in this country??
MLD, I went to University of California, Santa Cruz which is infamous for being mostly white, except in the science and computer departments, which have many Asians. In my European history classes, we were almost all white. Some hispanics.
brian,
re: your comment @10:19 PM yesterday (Jan 19) on being hurt by pastors.
Sorry this is so late. In the conservative Lutheran churches, confession as a formal practice of the church still survives (although stripped of the Roman accretions of pennance and prayers to Mary) The Pastors take a solemn vow in their ordination never to break the seal of the confessional, and are bound to hear the confessions of all who seek to confess.After you confess your sins, the Pastor proclaims Christ’s forgiveness and in the Name of Jesus forgives your sins.
During a particularly long and dark period of my life, I sought out my Pastor weekly for confession. Week after week I would recount and confess my many and very ugly sins and struggles. Week after week he would ask if I was sorry for my sins and wished to do better. He would then place his hands on my head and proclaim Christ’s (and his) forgiveness of my sins.
Man, it was powerful. It changed me deeply. The work of the cross was applied to me in my own particular sins.
You probably aren’t Lutheran, but don’t let that discourage you from finding a Lutheran Pastor and availing yourself of confession and absolution. If you have questions youcan email me at http://www.newreformationpress.com.
I’m sorry you have been forced to bear your burden alone among hirelings.
God’s Peace
Sponsor an Executive today! This clip is only 1:37 seconds long, but well worth your time. Please consider the plea in the video, please! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDC0qcf0kzE
Michael:
“God always has a remnant…always.”
According to Ingrid at SoL, 7,000 apparently:
“One gushing young woman on Al Mohler’s Facebook page today described how she was just going to love the new President and pray for his beautiful family and just respect and honor him with all her heart. This is the kind of thinking that has already institutionalized evil in this land and that allowed the slaughter of 50 million children while millions of evangelicals played church. Christian pietism can be deadly. Just ask the 6 million Jews in Lutheran Germany. American GI’s had to march these same German “Christians” past the mounds of corpses at Buchenwald and Bergen-Belson to show them what such piety cost the Jews. Evangelicals have now made peace with baby butchery and gay rights. That leaves a remnant that still believes what God said in His Word. Praise God there are still at least 7,000, and we will never join the cause of evil spearheaded by Barak Obama.”
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/abominations/hate-crimes-agenda-already-posted-on-white-house-site/
“People are way out of balance in the time and effort they devote to knowing Fox news instead of God’s word.”
Michael,
If it is as you say, and people are spending more time and effort devoted to Fox news than they are in drawing near to God and His word, You righlty state.. thats not balance.
and Yes, I would greatly agree with you when you write:
“We should be way out of balance on the side of knowing, understanding, and believing the word of God that applies to any temporal situation.”
MLD -
MLD
“peddling?”
Man yer gettin’ mean in yer old age! Looks like compassion is no longer one of your strong suits
MLD
Why don’t you tell us all the correct way to believe…God please for give me for having a differing opinion than your servant MLD
Steve,
I meant no offense - a poor choice of words. My apologies.
Here is Francis Schaeffer bemoaning Obama’s presidency and the end of Christian culture.
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsy-4m2pcHg&feature=related
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb4qgWigu64&feature=related
Oh wait, this was 1982
MLD
Thanks…I apologize too…I have a short fuse sometimes
Franky, however, supported Obama.
Can any of you guys direct me to a good resource that talks about what Happened to Paul aft acts 28? I’ve done some research in the past and have use Conybeare and Howsen but my books are packed away.
I would appreciate any help you guys can give
Steve,
I feel badly that you’re so gloomy about the new Presidency and what you think it represents.
What MLD said is true — Schaeffer bemoaned this 35-40 years ago.
When I went to a Big Ten University in the mid 70s, the profs. were
already heavy into post-modern thinking.
Besides, I always thought Christianity can thrive under any type of political system.
I really like what a theology prof. at my son’s Lutheran college told him — my son asked how things would go under an Obama administration.
His reply (similar to what MLD said earlier): “Spiritually, we’ll be fine.”
almost 10 in the West and the world hasn’t ended…
Last I heard, Ingrid goes to a Missouri Synod church (oh well, can’t
win ‘em all…)
So where does her 7,000 remnant leave the 2.5 million LCMSers? I guess maybe 1 person out of each of the 5,000 or so congregations will be saved.
Why don’t we start guessing who!!
Lute,
Who is Elsie M. Esser?
Nomans, you are a dear heart! I am good…..Laura and I are speaking again, ended up at her parent’s house after church Sunday. We prayed together. I am cautiously optimistic, few expectations, however.
Tonight I am exhausted….I think it’s the 7 days in a row with fewer than 5 hours sleep per night. I MUST catch up!
PRAISE report: After over 10 years not being able to navigate certain places without severe panic attacks, I can now take the toll road from San Juan Capistrano to it’s end without screaming in terror! I can now drive myself to church in San Diego without freaking out. I am rejoicing. This means I can attend the church I love anytime I feel so lead. Thankyou Precious Lord!
Lute/MLD and all
For clarity, My comments are observations of the times in which we live. In reality they have nothing to do with Obama being president. The times have been changing at Lute says for quite sometime, and him personally. It simply marks the change has officially taken place. Again, I believe the president reflects the face of the country.
Will Christianity survive…a remnant. God will see to that. But it is my opinion that Christianity will by enlarge morph into something other than the Christianity of the bible. Culture is already ripe for that. I mean no offense to any one when I say this but the Homosexual issue with break the back of traditional biblical Christianity within the next 25-50 years. While we need to learn to deal with the issue compassionately, respectfully, we simply cannot accept it as an alternative life style. But that goes against the mode of the the time.
Either churches will be forced to accept that life style of be trampled underfoot as culture moves forward.
A remnant of the church will keep the scriptures but my opinion is culture is on a slippery downward slope (it has been but it’s picking up steam).
I don’t think of myself as doom and gloom any more than when I gave my daughter the keys to the family car even though I knew there was an accident probably in her future. Sorry if I am bumming people out but I am just making my own commentary. I see it as more objective than Eore (Winnie the Poo) theology
Filb,
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Kat
Rejoicing with you. Thank you Lord Jesus.
Lute
“I feel badly that you’re so gloomy about the new Presidency and what you think it represents.”
Thanks but I don’t feel like I am being gloomy. In fact I feel I am being fairly objective. Culture, as you have said, has been changing since the turn of the 19th century. Even so, biblical Christianity has remained pretty much in tact. But the onslaught against it and those who take the bible as is as inspired has been increasing. President Obama simply represent the transition is now complete. The slippery slope culture has been on is gaining momentum and the assault upon biblical Christianity will only increase. With out wanting to offend any one, the homosexual issue is what will break the back of biblical Christianity. YES, we need to learn to deal with the issue in a compassionate respectful way, but we simply cannot agree that is is a life style supported by scripture. But already there are those who do and many doctrines in the next 25 years will begin to fall like dominoes. Those of us who hold fast to the traditions the church has taught on this issue and others will be sen as archaic, and out of touch.
Mine is an observation and like I said I don’t see it as gloomy any more than when I gave my daughter the keys to the family car knowing an accident was probably in her future. It’s a logical progression of things as I see it. But like I said, I am just a pastor and these are mu opinions
But God will have a remnant. Always. And noting a problem is the first step in addressing it
Culture has been changing since the day that the first human being breathed their first breath. Change didn’t start in the 19h century.
just sayin’
London
not gonna nit pic words witcha…gets me away from the point I am trying to make
I’m with Michael.
More time in prayer.
More time in study and “meditation” on God’s word.
More time in fellowship.
Rest easy…..God’s on it.
Did I say meditation? Sorry Michael, LHT has probably flagged this sight as lost…..
Do what you want to do Hopkins. I personally am choosing the road of optimism, hope and celebration with millions of other people, christian and non-christian, across the globe who are happy that the US had made the choice we’ve made.
I choose to assume the best about this country and it’s new leader until I see evidence to the contrary.
Knock yourself out being cynical about it if you want.
So why is that because I have made an observation about what I believe this election means and just because it’s not all Pollyannaish that I am considered “cynical”
What if I were on the Titanic and I happened to see the iceberg coming? Do I not have some sort of responsibility to sound a warning?
What if my daughter when she was 3 or 4 reaches in the medicine cabinet and grabs some pretty colored pills and starts to take them; am I not morally obligated because I know the outcome, to take the pretty pills from her hand even though she says “Awww daddy your no fun”?
The way I understand your meaning of cynical is “Don’t bug me with a downer right now. Even if it may be true I just don’t want to think about it”
If you were driving down a road and I told you that up ahead the bridge was out and if you didn’t take a detour you would crash to your death, would that be cynical?
Inauguration and celebration is over. Time to face reality before it’s too late.
I apologize to Michael and you for bumming you guys out. But the time for those who hold to a biblical worldview to act is now. I know that rains on some people’s parade but that’s how I see it.
I think President Obama has already singed legislation giving access by the Attorney General’s office to President Bushes files. He is shutting down Gitmo and thumbing his nose at those who lost family in 911. Come on
I don’t think I am belittling the sovereignty of God when I say wake up. I know he’s in control but to do nothing saying “god’s gonna work it all out and it doesn’t matter that whether I care or not is fatalism. (I know you don’t believe that Michael).
So…. Ahhh. I’ll just shut up. I promised that last night and didn’t. Sorry
No matter how I try to explain my views, they will be seen as cryptic.
What is coming that God is not aware of?
What more actions can we take other than to love our people, preach the Gospel and teach folks that God is faithful in every circumstance?
Why aren’t we focusing on the greatness of God instead of the negative circumstances?
By the way, it’s not just you…I’ve never seen such negativity through out the church.
Michael
“What more actions can we take other than to love our people, preach the Gospel and teach folks that God is faithful in every circumstance?”
All you get from me on that one is AMEN! I think I am sounding a warning not to be deceived. And to hold fast to what we know is true and to sound the call to come to Christ; and not waiver from what the bible says is true. That’s my point. Hold Fast!!!
I really don’t want to bum you out just reinforce what you said.
BTW, Michael, you ought to listen to my Acts 21 -28 teachings. You’d think I was a Calvinist! I love the Sovereignty of God! It is the pillow upon which I rest my weary head in times like this
Steve,
I won’t tell CCOF.
You are getting the brunt of my frustration with many other folks…I apologize and trust that you understand.
We need to teach folks to hold fast indeed.
I fight having a negative attitude. As I understand it, one of Obama’s first actions will be to sign the Freedom Of Choice Act, furhtering abortion in this country and increasing financing of it abroad.
If that doesn’t make a Christian angry, there is some incorrect thinking going on. There are some things we ought to be angry about…
…and yet…
We cannot lose our footing, we must rest in God’s sovereignty, and we must with the best attitude possible and in God’s grace serve Him and love people, and plead with them to turn to Jesus.
Blessings…
One thing more….feeling negative doesn’t make one negative.
If that’s not a famous quote, it ought to be.
“So why is that because I have made an observation about what I believe this election means and just because it’s not all Pollyannaish that I am considered “cynical”
What if I were on the Titanic and I happened to see the iceberg coming? Do I not have some sort of responsibility to sound a warning?”
The way I understand your meaning of cynical is “Don’t bug me with a downer right now. Even if it may be true I just don’t want to think about it”
Steve, I for one really appreciate your posts on this topic, and Im largely in agreement with you on all points…
Sadly, even if you see the iceburg and give the warning, many people would rather “party on”
and by the time everyone sees the evidence… its going to be too late to do much about
Im not so much negative as I am grieving the state of this nation,
the compromise, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God…
But yet, how do we, as Michael points out,
in our walk with the Lord,
How do we effectively minister to others in this climate?
and what is going to be….
(and I know God is sovereign,
But to watch this train wreck in slow motion, its painful none the less….)
But yet, how do we, as Michael points out,
in our walk with the Lord,
How do we effectively minister to others in this climate?
and what is going to be….
I think we stay true to our values. People are so used to everyone being afraid to speak what is Truth. I think people need to see Christians that won’t bow. We have good examples from scripture (like Daniel) on how to respond when the culture is serving other gods. There are times when the best we can do is be faithful with whatever God has for us today, remain obedient to His word, and seek Him. I think we cannot allow compromise in the church. God is not suprised by the climate of our society but when He comes…w