"I humbly ask this in the name of the One who changed my life — Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, [pronounced in Spanish], Jesus — who taught us to pray:
That was Rick Warrens prelude to wrapping up his inaugural prayer with the Lord's Prayer.
Isa is the Arabic or Muslim name for Christ and the inclusion of the name in the prayer was an obvious ecumenical bone thrown to the Muslims.
That's not good…
The Muslim Isa is not my Jesus…in their doctrine he was not crucified for the sins of the world but was a forerunner of Muhammad.
My Jesus is God and he ain't anybody's forerunner.
My Jesus isn't ecumenical…he divides people into two categories.
Sons of His father and sons of the devil.
“Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.””
(John 8:42-47 ESV)
That designation is determined by how you define Him.
“Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
(Matthew 16:13-18 ESV)
I like Warren and I respect him but his first responsibility is to be a representative of the one true and living God.
That means sounding a clear note and giving a proper answer to the question “But who do you say that I am"?.
The mythological Isa of Islam can't save anyone.
Jesus saves.
Period.
Update:
On the other hand…Tim (who works with a mission organization) has a different perspective.
"This is ridiculous. I’ve got on my desk 3 testimonies from Arabic speaking believers (which I cannot share more details of) who referred to Jesus as “Isa.”
There are a lot of Arabic Christians in the world who have come out of Islam that call Jesus “Isa.” Are they any less saved than those of us who call upon the English transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua.?"
I may have stepped in it this morning…or maybe not.
We discuss…
I’m a little confused here. Does that mean by using Yeshua and Jesus (Hispanic pronunciation) he was throwing the ecumenical bone to the Jews and Latinos? Not trying to start an argument, honest question.
Warren did fine. I’m not going to participate in this thread.
Amen, Michael. Amen.
I have to agree wholeheartedly. The Muslims recognize Jesus as a teacher/prophet, not God. He is God. He is the way, the truth, and the life.
I’m glad he mentioned Jesus, but he should have left it at that. The other folks know what they call Him, and what they believe.
At first, I thought Warren may have been patronizing Islam with the Isa word but then I actually heard the prayer and wasn’t bothered by it. I may be mistaken but could it be those of us who were bothered by the use of the name “Isa” are importing to much Muslim baggage to the word?
Granted, is was the Arabic name of Jesus he chose to use and not French, or Russian, of Tagolog. But using your mode of reasoning, my friend, Yeshua, the Jewish name we sometimes times call Jesus, was a radical who who was executed by the Jews as a criminal.
So, are we making more of this than what was intended? I dunno
If we want to critique a prayer (and I use that term loosely in reference to this man) let’s talk about Gene Robinson’s!!!
Bob
WE asked the same question only your was more cogent
Steve…I’m kind of with you. I’m a bit divided on this. When I heard the prayer it made me kinda turn my head…but if I just heard the prayer and knew nothing else I would take it at face value that he was simply using a variety of languages.
However…hasn’t he made some outreaches to the Muslims that are somewhat questionable? If that is true, and if MLD is correct that he went and taught synagogues about how to be better Jews, well, that colors things a bit for me.
I don’t know. But, when there is a question and we play into the question and make things more vague, that can be dangerous.
This is ridiculous. I’ve got on my desk 3 testimonies from Arabic speaking believers (which I cannot share more details of) who referred to Jesus as “Isa.”
There are a lot of Arabic Christians in the world who have come out of Islam that call Jesus “Isa.” Are they any less saved than those of us who call upon the English transliteration of the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua.
Why not just pray in the name of Jesus? Was he praying to the crowd or to God? Jeus knows what everyone else calls Him. Those that call Him by other names know what they call Him. I again state I’m glad he prayed in Jesus’ name, but why add the extras? Just wondering.
As for Robinson…….yeah……..ummmm……….yeah………
Jesus’ mother tongue was Aramaic. In his own lifetime he was called Yeshua in Aramaic, and Jesu in Greek. This is like calling the same person John when speaking English and Jean when speaking French: Jesu, pronounced “Yesoo”, is the Greek form of Aramaic Yeshua. (The final -s in Jesu-s is a Greek grammatical ending.) Yeshua is itself a form of Hebrew Yehoshua’, which means ‘the Lord is salvation’. However Yehoshua’ is normally given in English as Joshua. So Joshua and Jesus are variants of the same name.
It is interesting that Jesus’ name Yehoshua’ contains within it the proper Hebrew name for God, the first syllable Yeh- being short for YHWH ‘the LORD’.
Yeshua of Nazareth was never called ‘Isa, the name the Qur’an gives to him. Arab-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as Yasou’ (from Yeshua) not ‘Isa.
I hope I am overreacting to be honest.
Tim’s perspective is unique and needs to be heard and evaluated.
I know how it came across to me and how it appears to have been understood in Islamic circles…but I could be wrong.
That’s why we allow comments…
Tim, I get that, but why didn’t he rattle it off in the language of the pygmy tribes in the rainforests? People will call Him by many names, but when I pray I pray to Jesus (Western translation) and others will translate it to what they recognize. I assume (with the inherent potential for incorrectness THAT brings) that Rick also prays to Jesus (Western translation), so why add the extra versions? I’m still glad he mentioned Jesus, but it did seem a little extra inclusive to me. But that is of course my OPINION.
In my humble opinion, finding common ground is effectual and powerful, and I think Warren did a great job…
And no Tim, your friends aren’t any less saved.
Good morning Beautiful blog family!
Well, for what is worth, I feel there was nothing wrong with the prayer. I still applaud Warren!!
TonyP -
“why didn’t he rattle it off in the language of the pygmy tribes in the rainforests?”
Probably because he didn’t know it.
Sounded to me like he was trying to address every language in the audience that he was standing in front of…or at least, as many as he knew.
Tim
Great point!
Am I gonna get beat up today? Cuz my wife knows where I am.
Tony…I don’t think there were any pygmy tribe members at the inauguration, although I could be mistaken. Could he just have been using the other languages so the people could feel more a part of the prayer and say a hearty amen?
I’m on the fence a bit on this one…but wasn’t it said the other day that we should first seek the best of our brothers and sisters when there is a doubt?
Tim,
Bet the Africans have a name for Jesus that is different. Why would he not have found that one? THere was a vast amount of black people attending, and it WAS a monumental event for them.
Tony…this might be the first time you get beat up on here! It’s about time!!!
Jesus has lots of names… There are lots of languages on earth. We are to evangelize to all of them.
Warren made it clear that he was praying to the one that taught us the Lord’s prayer. That is clear enough for me.
Rick’s prayer was very moving to me and I am very glad he mentioned Jesus’ name, but I also want to understand this part of the prayer. When I first read Michael’s post… sorry, but I thought Michael was really wrong. This morning, doing some quick research on the name “Isa” I found a few things that are a concern:
“Wiki” - Jesus in Islam (Arabic: ????? `?s?) is a messenger of God who had been sent to guide the Children of Israel (ban? isr?’?l) with a new scripture, the Inj?l (gospel).[1] The Qur’an, believed by Muslims to be God’s final revelation, states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid him in his quest, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles, all by the permission of God. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but rather he was raised alive up to heaven. Islamic traditions narrate that he will return to earth near the day of judgment to restore justice and defeat al-Mas?? ad-Dajj?l (lit. “the false messiah”, also known as the Antichrist).[2][3] Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God’s will. Islam rejects that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, stating that he was an ordinary man who, like other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God’s message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing the notion of God’s divine oneness (tawh?d). Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Qur’an, such as al-Mas?? (”the messiah; the anointed one” i.e. by means of blessings), although it does not correspond with the meaning accrued in Christian belief. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter’s coming.[3][4]
This “Isa” is not the “Jesus” we know and love.
But, neither is the Jesus that the Jewish people speak about.
Josh,
But by his being inclusive to some, but not all, did he offend someone? If he had just stated Jesus (Westsrn translation), those in attendance would have understood Who he meant as an American pastor who speaks English, right? So , by adding some other names, but not rattling off all the rest was he showing preference to some groups?
I know he was not BTW, just pushing the other side.
sarah your 8:24,
I agree, and I believe he had the very BEST of intentions. But I just feel that he didn’t need to range out that way. I am STILL GLAD that he mentioned Jesus on a worldwide stage, but he could have left it at that. Since I wasn’t asked to give the prayer, I will never know how I would have done it, probably MUCH worse.
But Michael did post this for comment.
PS I bruise easily…..
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Isa (Arabic script ????) is an Arabic name corresponding to Jesus in English. It is a common male given name for the Arabs and other Islamic peoples.
Arabic-speaking Muslims refer to Jesus as Isa, while Arabic-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as Yasu (Arabic script ????). Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam (see Islamic view of Jesus), and his name is used in these two forms in the Qur’an and Arabic versions of the Bible, respectively.
- it seems he should have used the name Yasu, not Isa.
Maybe we ought to focus on the Obama national health care program he intends to institute. If he succeeds then it is just another step toward a dependency upon Government instead of God-which I contend people really want and it has been that way since the fall(not that any one should be deprived of health care. Don’t put those words in my mouth)
To me that’s more dangerous and worthy off discussion than whether Rick Warren has some hidden demonic agenda (not that this issue of Jesus or Isa shouldn’t be discussed but lets not swallow a camel and choke on a gnat)
Like I said…I’m still unsettled on this one.
Steve..only thing that comes to mind is that Warren is a minister of the Gospel, and it is important to think about how is presenting Jesus. It is important for all of us to think about how we present Jesus in the opportunities given to us…and so it seems worthy of discussion.
Obama’s health plan is important and worthy of discussion, but haven’t we hammered each other pretty good on politics the last couple days? I’m sure there are loads of places discussing all aspects of Obama’s plans.
I updated the article with Tim’s comment…it’s a very good point.
Thanks, Michael.
In my very quick search on the web this morning, I would not even post some of the things that Muslims believe at Isa and Jews and Christians. Frankly, it’s scary. There is no love.
I would have to believe that using Isa was simply using the word without fully understanding it. I didn’t know the meaning until this morning (reading Michael’s post). When I heard it in the prayer, I simply thought it meant the same Jesus we all know and love.
I will say, Michael has taught me to search for truth and not believe everything I hear to be true (even though painful at times). Michael has also taught me the meaning of keeping God’s Word pure, the importance of it (and checking it out to confirm the truth). When man starting twisting God’s Words or truth then problems begin. We all probably do this at times, but mostly, because we do not know the truth or made a mistake unintentionally. This also shows us how important it is to lovingly correct someone when we do make a mistake with scripture.
There has to be a reason why “Isa” was spoken in the prayer. I look forward to hearing the reason.
When we speak about Jesus Christ the Son of God we need to be very clear who we are talking about. He is the Gate to the Father. Period.
Sarah
I agree with your comments about the discussion and didn’t mean it should stop. And yes we are pretty much tired of discussing politics at this time BUT having said that, we as Christians need to focus our attentions where the real problems lie and that IMHO, is this hope that President Obama is the Savior who will save us from our dependency upon God, (which the framers of the constitution at the very least acknowledged, and at best depended on), and usher in a dependency upon government. Finally, many are saying or inwardly hoping, “WE can get this God thing over and done with. WE’ve been waiting for the right man. Now he is here O BA MA HO SA NNA
Im like a dog on a bone on this issue I know. I will not leave it but try and use tact in talking about it
Steve,
My gosh, NO ONE mentioned or suggested … “domonic agenda” …
Try a possible miss-understanding of a word, possibly.
RW is a very good man who loves our Lord.
Steve…I agree, we need to not be naive and we need to pray for great wisdom and discernment in these times. Didn’t mean to sound knee-jerk reactive to your comments. There are extremes in every camp, and the extremes in Obama’s camp do think he is the answer to all the problems.
On the Isa issue of all the other translations of the Jewish name Yeshua he could have chosen he chose the Arabic one–the one Islam would use–Can we deny that he was indeed throwing the Muslims a bone?
Of course he was. But is it a bad thing that a Christian would do that in a Christian prayer?
Here’s the full text of Warren’s Inaugural Invocation:
Let us pray.
Almighty God, our Father, everything we see and everything we can’t see exists because of you alone. It all comes from you. It all belongs to you. It all exists for your glory.
History is your story. The Scripture tells us, “Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God. The Lord is One.” And you are the compassionate and merciful one. And you are loving to everyone you have made.
Now, today, we rejoice not only in America’s peaceful transfer of power for the 44th time. We celebrate a hingepoint of history with the inauguration of our first African American president of the United States. We are so grateful to live in this land, a land of unequaled possibility, where the son of an African immigrant can rise to the highest level of our leadership. And we know today that Dr. King and a great cloud of witnesses are shouting in heaven.
Give to our new President, Barack Obama, the wisdom to lead us with humility, the courage to lead us with integrity, the compassion to lead us with generosity. Bless and protect him, his family, Vice President Biden, the cabinet, and every one of our freely elected leaders.
Help us, O God, to remember that we are Americans, united not by race, or religion, or blood, but to our commitment to freedom and justice for all. When we focus on ourselves, when we fight each other, when we forget you, forgive us. When we presume that our greatness and our prosperity is ours alone, forgive us. When we fail to treat our fellow human beings and all the earth with the respect that they deserve, forgive us. And as we face these difficult days ahead, may we have a new birth of clarity in our aims, responsibility in our actions, humility in our approaches, and civility in our attitudes, even when we differ.
Help us to share, to serve and to seek the common good of all. May all people of goodwill today join together to work for a more just, a more healthy and a more prosperous nation and a peaceful planet. And may we never forget that one day all nations and all people will stand accountable before you. We now commit our new president and his wife, Michelle and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, into your loving care.
I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus, who taught us to pray:
“Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.”
Steve,
I completely disagree…:-)
The problem is sin and unbelief just as it has always been and the cure is the same as He’s always been.
The rest is nothing more than distraction..
“The incense was accepted with God as it went straight up into the air, mounting till it seemed to join the clouds and lose itself. Brothers and Sisters, our intercessions, when they are sweet to God, go straight up to Him. Do your prayers always do that? Have you ever prayed thinking, “Well, that is a very nice expression which I have used. My learned Brethren will be pleased with that. My spiritual friends will be able to join in that and they will think, ‘What a spiritual man he is to pray as he is now doing.” Ah, my Brother, the smoke is blowing down, you see—blowing away towards man’s nostrils, and not towards God. So much waste and only waste! The prayer which God accepts is offered to Him alone.” Charles Spurgeon
Are we forgetting that this was a Believer making holy intercession in prayer? This was not a sermon. Warren was *praying* to our God. Our prayers are to ascend to Him and not be mini-sermons to each other. Much can be learned from hearing the prayers of a man of God, but that is not the purpose. The purpose is to commune with our Lord, and to intercede for others. I joined Rick in his prayer as he spoke those words and uttered a loud “Amen” when he was done. Should we be analyzing a man’s heart-felt communion with God?
And also the video of the prayer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EDQ84LvKwI&feature=related
Solus,
You have me smiling this morning.
Warren did leave it up to individual to interpret the “name,” I guess. I hadn’t really thot of it in that light . . . would it have improved things if he had defined Him as Immanuel in his prayer? dunno . . . I suspect that Warren knew who he was praying to . . . if you asked him who Jesus is, would he say, He is The Christ, The Son of The Living God? . . . something to think about this morning . . .
“Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;”
Solus
My respected freind. If we step back and take in all the rhetoric about Rick Warren, a professed evangelical, whether it be the use of the name Isa in a prayer, his methods of proclaiming the gospel to the unchurched, his book Purpose Driven Life, the not mentioning of certain words in his messages, that is exactly what is being said about him!
Now I am not a Rick Warren guy and know very little about him but from my little corner of the Christian world, whether it be CC, PP or Light house Trails, it sure sounds to me like the subliminal message is this man is not from God and there is the smell of sulphur around him
Thanks Scott. I couldn’t find the actual prayer on the web.
I believe it is simply a miss-understanding of a word “Isa”…
“I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus [Spanish pronunciation], Jesus, who taught us to pray:”
Good Morning All-
Like many, I can go back & forth emotionally on this, but I think it’s a ’slippery slope’ kind of thing. I understand the idea of speaking to folks in their language as we evangelize, but that’s not what Warren’s prayer was doing.
As Christians, we pray in Jesus’ name. When Warren, or anyone, says “in Jesus’ name, Amen”, there is a Biblical understanding of what that means. If anyone, in any language, wants to know what he means by that, they can look it up in their own language and understand what ‘we’ mean when we say that.
When Warren uses ‘Isa’, he doesn’t know what the hearer’s definiton is of that word, and as we’ve seen here by our studious PP’ers, it means many thing to many people.
I guess it boils down to a Clintonian, “it depends on what your definiton of Isa is”, and Warren doesn’t know how that will be defined.
Also, in these situations, it sometimes doesn’t seem like much at first glance, but they often lead to the next time, where the next efforts at inclusion water things down a bit more.
I saw this firsthand as the “ecumanical movement” swept through the Lutheran Church (LCA) to the point of it’s demise (assimilation into the ELCA).
Michael
I agree that the problem is sin but I see Obama enabling that sinful tendency. We’ve had the echo of Christianity to guide us sine the constitution and maybe even before, we’ve at least had those ideals before us and the struggle to persue them. But as Americans, those who hold power have jettisoned those and with them any thought of God.
But President Obama, represent the new power that will finally take us away from the archaic notion that God has a standard and we all fall short of it.
Frind, we are on the same page and YES, God is sovereign but we still make decisions and that is an antimony
Steve,
I consider you a friend and I care about you, but your 9:03 comment scares the h*ll out of me. I really don’t know what to say to you…
That is really a terrible thing to say about this man.
I hope and pray you ask Michael to remove your post, please.
“ecumenical movement”
At least I think we are on the same page!
About the last week of December, Warren had a luncheon with Islamic leaders in Washington. I listened to the event for about an hour and a half on CSPAN where Rick Warren espoused the goodness of people and how we can all get along to achieve great and mighty things. During that entire luncheon I did not hear him utter the name of Jesus one time. He did a little better here with the “Isa” comment but I was disappointed to hear an evangelical leader find compromise with the religion followers of Islam. It doesn’t surprise me to learn that many Evangelicals think that Yaweh and Allah are one in the same. Poor teaching going on in the churches concerning what Islam is what makes for compromising Christians. Perhaps Warren does not know what Islam means to Christians today. Certainly, George Bush showed his ignorance by calling it the religion of peace, perhaps this shows how much we need to learn still.
sort of
His Kid and Spurgeon sound right to me . . . but that is not to discount the fact that we should be jealous of Our Lord’s **name,** eh
Please Note has described my concerns to a tee…excellent post, my friend!
This is why most public events have ceased to have prayer. No prayer at sporting events…school assemblies…soon there will be NO prayer at inaugurations…
We are demonstrating why this morning…
The Inaugural prayer and the one by Gene Robinson were so highly politicized as to nearly remove them from the category of prayer…they become speeches with partisan postscripts.
God Save the Queen Dread
Puzzletop…that’s the context I was talking about in my 8:08. At face value, the quote might be simply misunderstanding, but context of the other things, might make Michael’s original post more valid.
Sarah, Puzz…yes.
I’m grateful that we are concerned for the precious name of our Savior, Jesus.
But we must remember that all of our prayers are less than holy. It is only through the intercession of our Lord Jesus Christ that our feeble, weak, and flesh-stained prayers can be transformed into that which is acceptable to God. We can go on and on about this one word that a Believer used as he lifted his eyes to God, or we can meditate on our own prayer lives and be thankful that the Holy Spirit sanctifies them.
Hey everybody…I emailed Michael on this yesterday because I was concerned about it. Like many of you I’m conflicted…I want to believe the best but it seemed rather weird.
Here is a blog post that you might find interesting…
http://www.loveforthetruth.com/2009/01/20/praying-in-the-name-of-isa/#comment-12
I must get to work…thanks to all for being thoughtful.
Btw, if you’re weird like me and like to go back and read Inaugural addresses of dead Presidents, give George Washington’s speech a read. Man, have we dumbed down in 200 years or what?
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=11&page=transcript
Please Note -
“When Warren uses ‘Isa’, he doesn’t know what the hearer’s definiton is of that word, and as we’ve seen here by our studious PP’ers, it means many thing to many people.”
I would agree with that argument to a point - but when “Isa” is surrounded by “Yeshua” & “Jesus”, and immediately followed up with the Lord’s Prayer, what other conclusion *could* a Muslim come to other than Warren was addressing the Jesus of the New Testament? It seems to me that RW tried to make an effort to define the Jesus he was referring to.
As to all the quotes from Wikipedia: I think we all know that Wiki isn’t exactly the best source for authoritative information. I’d encourage you to find a Arabic-speaking Christian who’s come out of Islam & ask *them* what believers call Jesus.
Michael has been encouraging the PP flock to keep it’s head up. Not give into the doom & gloom of our present economics, social erosion, etc. Pointing out that God is a sovereign God that rules not only over our basic needs and cares, but also the affairs of history and nations.
Therefore, it’s in the spirit of that hope, consolation and exhortation from the Leader of this blog, that I shall lay aside any further concerns about what and how Rick Warren prayed at the Inauguration of Barack Obama. Amen!
Doulos,
Excellent point.
Interesting how context can go both ways with Warren.
Pray for Warren and pray that the sulfur smell is coming from our catalytic converters
we have been creeping ever closer to the edge of the abyss for about 100 years now, tho - IMNSHO
This site has been a blessing this past year, but Michael’s web-site here is distracting me from things I need to be about - either the Lord’s return/rapture of the Church is about to occur and the details of life are irrelevant or I need to be about those “details.”
God keep
Scoot.
Our token blog socialist…
As long as you promise to take care of us, we will submit!!!
As per Please Note and Michael’s applause…
Lest we leave aside that he also used the name Yeshua… I actually have friends… mostly of the former sort…that will not allow those around them to pray in the name of Jesus… as that is improper since God speaks Hebrew…
I just hope the Almighty can sort this out in the tongues of heaven as supposedly this prayer was addressed to Him.
Return To Sender Dread
‘Now I am not a Rick Warren guy and know very little about him but from my little corner of the Christian world, whether it be CC, PP or Light house Trails, it sure sounds to me like the subliminal message is this man is not from God and there is the smell of sulphur around him’
Steve, you need to explain this statement of yours, please…
Do you believe this?
Love you Steve, but your 9:03 about Warren is off base. Rick Warren is not the model that I prefer as a pastor, but I believe he loves the Lord and serves Him well.
After reading some of the comments on this thread, I don’t think I would being willing to pray aloud at any PP gatherings.
This is why having public prayer at the inauguration is kinda dumb.
What they should have is prayer services in churches and the host pastor doing the prayers. The President and his entourage can go to that church and join in prayer. If he wants liberal prayer, he can go to a liberal church - if he wants conservative prayer he can go to a conservative church etc.
But no matter how you do it in public, it doesn’t work.
I was talking to my Jewish mother yesterday and she said “your Rick Warren did a good job. He did not offend anyone.” See, that’s the problem.
This is not hair splitting when it comes to definitions that cults and world religions use when they say or mean God or Jesus. It is absolutely essential that when you speak with a follower of Mohammed that he understands you are talking to him about the Jesus of the Bible. The God-Man who is the only way to salvation. The follower of Islam has another gospel and another jesus they have pre-packaged from the Koran. They are not one in the same nor is the Triune God the same as their Allah. Definitions are important if you are going to proclaim the Gospel effectively to the lost.
Nomans,
I thought a little grandstanding was appropriate for the moment.
Actually, I didn’t really give much thought and analysis to Rick Warren’s prayer. The benediction though was…
“I would agree with that argument to a point - but when “Isa” is surrounded by “Yeshua” & “Jesus”, and immediately followed up with the Lord’s Prayer, what other conclusion *could* a Muslim come to other than Warren was addressing the Jesus of the New Testament? It seems to me that RW tried to make an effort to define the Jesus he was referring to.”
Thanks Tim!
I’m sorry friends, but dissecting this prayer the way some of you have is hair splitting. I should have done the same as Xenia and just stayed away from this thread.
Jesus offended many…
I’m with Bob and Xenia…
Hey Michael,
Try something. Only post stuff for the next few days that has a positive connotation, and allow only positive comments. I’m interested to see how many heads explode….
BTW I’m cool with that. Think I’ll hang out on the prayer thread. If anyone needs prayer, let me know.
Bob,
Either way the listener had to make a decision what Jesus to pick from. Was it Jesus of the New Testament behind Door #1 Or Jesus of the Koran behind Door #2 or was it Jesus of the Obamamites imagination behind Door #3. It’s not the best way to proclaim the Gospel. I could be wrong after all Barrack didn’t pick me to give the benediction. He did however pick Rev. Lowery and his prayer of invocation was an obomination.
Jesus taught the disciples and those around Him how to pray.
I do not recall a record of Jesus praying in public other than teaching the Lord’s Prayer. One would think Jesus would have prayed with those He taught in the temple.
Jesus prayed alone in the garden of Gethsemane and at night, away from the others.
Jesus teaches us not to use prayer as gaining spirituality and calling attention to ourselves (as the Pharisees practiced).
On one hand I regret writing it.
On the other hand I was asked to comment and it’s being discussed all over the net.
This is by far the most balanced discussion I’ve seen so far.
I didn’t see RW’s prayer.
Did the context of his prayer point to the fact that it was Jesus of Nazareth that he was praying to, in spite of the apparent poor choice of names?
His ignorance of the significance of the name “Isa” may have been the case. As was noted on the link posted by Ryan, Arab Christians call Him Yesua.
Someone might have done that research for Rick and gotten it wrong.
Michael
PP is like Fox News
Michael…we’ve grown a little in learning how to interact with some tact and respect. Strong opinions are one thing…arrogance and disdain another. It is good to be able to think these things through in the space of safety of family.
Just to clarify, my take isn’t on Warren’s intent, or to try to measure his heart or anything like that.
My concern is for the audience. Many of the folks following & endorsing Obama have followed all of this from the moment Oprah endorsed him.
If you recall, Oprah has a ’spiritual leader’ named Ekhart Tolle whom she teaches an online 10-session course with on Tolle’s New Earth religion, where he interchangeably uses Jesus, Yahshuah, and other names, quotes Jesus hundreds of times, and incorporates many Buddhist principles. From what I know of this, there isn’t anyone I’ve seen post here that would agree that Tolle is representing the same Jesus we follow.
Now I AM NOT trying to equate Warren with Tolle, or do any type of ‘guilt by assoociation’, or anything else here.
My point is simply that I fear when any Christian (Warren or otherwise), uses this same all-inclusive language, it further endorses the “all religions are the same” mentality that is prevalent today, and not only undermines what the Bible presents, but gives credence to Tolle, and others.
Psalm 146
1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 I will praise the LORD all my life;
I will sing praise to my God as long as I live.
3 Do not put your trust in princes,
in mortal men, who cannot save.
4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.
5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
whose hope is in the LORD his God,
6 the Maker of heaven and earth,
the sea, and everything in them—
the LORD, who remains faithful forever.
7 He upholds the cause of the oppressed
and gives food to the hungry.
The LORD sets prisoners free,
8 the LORD gives sight to the blind,
the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down,
the LORD loves the righteous.
9 The LORD watches over the alien
and sustains the fatherless and the widow,
but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.
10 The LORD reigns forever,
your God, O Zion, for all generations.
Praise the LORD.
It’s rather simple to me — it was a prayer to the nation of all peoples, of all different backgrounds, national origins, and languages. It communicated the person of Jesus of Nazareth to these many individuals using different languages:
1. Yeshua - Jews, Hebrew
2. Isa - Middle East/Arabic World
(NOT the Koranic or some Islam version of Jesus)
3. Jesus - English/American, Western World
4. Jesus (Spanish) - Mexican Americans/Latino/Hispanic
(35.3 million in US).
It’s a tempest in a teapot, IMHO, that seems to be brewing just so people can fight and argue and grip — yet again. here is an interesting article at http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/true-name-isa.htm which reads:
“(A) What is Jesus’ original name? (B) What is the most appropriate way of rendering (transliterating) a name in a different language? . . . There is no disagreement about the fact that Jesus was not an Arab but a Jew who lived in Israel and was born into a family of pious Jews. He had without question a Hebrew name. His original (i.e. true) name is neither European nor Arabic, so it was neither Jesus nor Yasu’ nor Esa. A close phonetic transliteration of Jesus’ Hebrew name into modern English would be Yeshua’. . . . (B) is a very different question. How are names in one language most appropriately rendered in another language, particularly if the two languages in question have different alphabets? Should it be Mohammed or Muhammad, Mecca or Makkah, Koran or Qur’an in English? Should the quranic name of Jesus be transliterated as Esa (the spelling used in Abualrub’s article) or ‘Isa which seems to be the more common spelling? . . .To summarize, Jesus’ original name was certainly not Arabic — neither the version Esa, found in the Qur’an, nor the version Yasu’ used in Arabic Bible translations. His original and therefore true name was Hebrew. The linguistically most appropriate transcription of the Hebrew name Yeshua’ into Arabic is Yasu’, the very name that has traditionally been used by Arab Christians, probably already before the advent of Islam. Since Esa was not Jesus’ original name, it cannot be maintained that it was divinely revealed since that would imply that God revealed a wrong name. Therefore, the name Esa was invented just as Yasu’ was invented, the difference being that Yasu’ is the linguistically appropriate transliteration of Yeshua’, while Esa is not. The only question remaining is how did the name Esa arise?”
Clearly, what we are dealing with here is a language/semantic issue — not some kind of clever, subtle, diabolic attempt to push the Muslim Jesus as the real Jesus. Somehow, somewhere, someone (likely one of Warren’s researcher’s) just saw ISA as the Muslim name for Jesus.
RA
I think most muslims know full well that Warren is a professing christian.
I wonder if they were offended that their “Isa” was misrepresented in his prayer.
We should go on the muslim blogs and find out!
M I just wonder if RW had mentioned the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, if he would have used several differen languages for Abe and his progeny?
Why the heck can’t we just speak English in this country???
Rich……………Long time no see!
Rich-
I don’t recall anyone here saying that it was a “clever, subtle, diabolic attempt to push the Muslim Jesus as the real Jesus”.
If you have to accuse us of that to make your point, maybe you don’t have one.
And Rick’s a smart guy and has prayed for years; do you really think he had someone write his National Prayer for him?
I guess you would know better than I.
RA: “Somehow, somewhere, someone (likely one of Warren’s researcher’s) just saw ISA as the Muslim name for Jesus.”
Seriously? With his interactions with Muslims, you honestly believe he didn’t know the name Isa in relation to them? He needed a researcher for that? Hmmm.
Couldn’t stay away (shocker). Found a site that is NOT wikipedia with some verse references form the Koran
http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/islamic_jesus.html
I don’t know enough about the actual Koran, but this guy uses specific passage references. If I could find this as the second listing of a Yahoo seach, surely someone else could have…..I’m just sayin’….
TonyP.
That is the same site I read early this morning, and it scared me. What they believe about Christians is very frightening. And, about the meaning of “Isa”.
Hello Richard, hope you and your wife are well.
So….can I ask a question…and I’m not baiting. How would you who were pastors have prayed? I would assume that you would have written out your prayer beforehand and thought through what you were presenting. So, in doing that would you have been posturing or preaching in your prayer at all? Would there have been “points” you wanted to bring across in the five minutes you were given the audience of the American people? Genuinely…how would you have approached this?
Warren had no other time to speak but to pray, and I would think, for me, that would be an incredibly humbling task. And it would bring to mind a thousand things I would want to address. Part of my awareness would absolutely be the mixed culture and the fact that he was leading a prayer in front of many who do not believe in his God. If there was a way, in my five minutes, to bridge something and somehow cause them to engage, I would hope I could do that.
More than that though, if given just five minutes, I would want my prayer to be clear. I would want to give no misunderstanding, in front of all of America, who I was calling upon to bless and strengthen and protect our president. I would want to honor God, and I would want to be able to pray my prayer in sincerity and without hesitation.
I think Warren was sincere…that came across. I think he was genuine. I think he was sincerely praying and not just “preaching” in his prayer. And I think he got a lot right. But, I think he could have been clearer…and I think that is what gnaws at most of us when we approach things about Warren. He does so many things right, and seems to have an enormous heart of compassion…but he also seems to hold back just that last bit where he could bring clarity.
And, I know for me, the gnawing feeling has to do with his interaction with other faiths to this point. Has that softened him some in his presentation of the Gospel, and his desire not to offend? I have no idea.
I’m nobody and it really doesn’t matter much what I think in the grand scheme….but I want to get something from this discussion. And here’s what has struck me. When my friends who do not believe hear me speak of God, or hear me pray, or see me write about prayer on FB…do they know who I am talking about? In the context of how I engage with them and my world the rest of the time, am I consistent and do I make clear who it is I believe in? I’d have to say I stumble at that sometimes…and maybe this morning Rick Warren is realizing he stumbled a bit with this and could have done better. May it draw him closer to Jesus, and more intent on proclaiming the Gospel with sincerity and clarity.
Just my, um, twenty cents or so.
Solus,
I agree. I attribute no nefarious intent by Rick’s choice, I also agree that it may have just been a misuse of the name. But on a stage such as that one it would be a fairly large distinction.
I have a good friend who’s spent quite a lot of time in India working with several different Muslim tribes. He says the only way to get them to listen to you at all is to say, “I am a follower of Isa.” Otherwise they see you as an enemy.
However, using Isa, he’s had many deep and profound conversations with Muslims telling them about Christ.
If it’s not wrong for Jewish Christians to call Him Yeshua, it’s not wrong to call Him Isa either!
TonyP.,
Agreed, but just as with the oath, mistakes happen… to those at the very top, to each and every one of us. I am glad the President took the oath again. Not because he had to, but because he wanted to, for the People. To be clear.
Just observing today.
Sarah,
First would be the question of how a Baptist made it past the screeners
. I hope would have found a way to share the gospel and then ask for a blessing on the administration and country.
Then I would have screwed it up somehow, I’m sure.
The worldwide stage comes about maybe once in a lifetime (more for guys like him, but not on this scale), and that was his chance. And I’m sure he knew that he would be dissected afterward.
Solus,
I’m glad he did too, for the reasons Tim stated earlier. People need to let him be the President, and then judge his actions and results from that. Quit trying to depose him on a technicality.
Tony…
I would have messed up somehow too! You know…it just struck me that God is so much bigger than this. I know, I’m dense sometimes. Only He knows what this prayer has sparked all over our country…the dialogues like this taking place all over. And somewhere in those discussions, maybe some are seeking to understand who this God of Rick Warren’s is..and may they find Him. May God bless Warren’s intent, if not his precision.
Louis-
That’s the point here, at least the one I’m trying to make.
You wrote “However, using Isa, he’s had many deep and profound conversations with Muslims telling them about Christ”. If you are having a conversation, you can clarify what you mean when you say Jesus. or Isa, or Yeshua.
This was a prayer, and to leave it open to folks to define it in their own terms is not what I’m called to do Biblically.
And to reiterate what Tony said, no one here is assigning a nefarious intent to Rick Warren. And no one is saying he can’t make a mistake.
We are simply discussing the possible ramifications of a current event, which is what we often do here, especially if they involve fellow Christians.
Louie,
Very cool about your beloved books. Meet Martin Luther’s Disciple on this site… he has 10,000 sermon recordings in his library.
And, he knows them all by heart!
Rick Warren was not in the pulpit, community center or living room as the case may be of recognized gathering of believers; other wise known as the church.
Rick Warren may be a pastor but please he was praying, not preaching, not meeting with a head of State of some foreign country.
Rick Warren was functioning as an ambassador and I believe rightly representing Jesus in this very limited context.
#1 He could have organized a protest and shouted through a megaphone from behind a cement barrier about how Jesus was being misrepresented.
#2 He rightly represented Jesus as one who was alive and changes the lives of those who exist in this world of flesh and blood huan beings.
That is going to cause some people hearing the prayer to think or allow thinking Christians to springboard off the content of Rick’s prayer and bring out the connection between the historical resurrection and the Risen Jesus of today offering the rule of redemptive love in His name and by His gospel.
I see the Sovereignty of God at work through active people who can simultaneously assess the challenges and seize the opportunities of their culture without setting aside an active trust in their Redeemer.
Louie-
Oops, I’m sorry I called you Louis. I’m glad Solus posted so I saw my error. Please forgive me, I meant no disrespect.
I had an Uncle Louis growing up & just thought I read Louis.
Sorry about that.
“Today, in his Presidential Inauguration prayer, Rick Warren prayed in the name of “Yeshua”, “Isa” and “Jesus”.
It seems, the three names Warren used were to imply the three “Abrahamic Faiths” (as they are so-called), Judaism, Christianity and Islam.”
Ryan Thank you for posting that link.
Sarah, I see what your saying, for such a momentous occasion, for one to possibly be more clear.
Please Note~ Your wisdom is greatly appreciated,
Now when you speak of Oprah and Tolle and how they use Jesus name in their 10 course session….
Are they Saved because they believe( do they believe) in Jesus?
What does it mean to believe in Jesus?
Muslims call God, Allah, the French call God Dieu,
and Spainish Dios, and we can go on down the line for the various languages of the nation…
But what does it all boil down to?
Well said Vic!
The ODM’s are loving PP today.
You guys are not going to believe this… now the President is being harassed by the press because they were not present during the second oath, nor one of “their” photographers.
I am going to bow out of this conversation about RW. I believe RW is a very good man who loves our Lord and this country.
I thank my Lord God, a follower of Christ gave that prayer for our country (and the world), mentioned Christ “Jesus” in the prayer, taught the Lord’s Prayer (as Jesus Christ taught the prayer… taken from the Holy Bible’s New Testament) to this beautiful world God created and shared it with all mankind.
Vic,
Did he mention Jesus was God? No, he thanked Him after praying to the Father, and mentioning Isa who by what I can find is a prophet and nothing more. That He changed his life is true, but so can Dr. Phil for all the masses know. How did the gospel come out in this venue? The more I read this the more potential for slipping I see.
The problem Rick faced is that we on the sidelines wanted to hear him pronounce the Gospel: Jesus Christ crucified and risen for the forgiveness of sins. The way, the truth, the life. The Alpha and the Omega. The only path to heaven.
Rick was called to say a prayer for the administration, and he did that. The rest is up to God to work with.
I’ll follow Solus and just watch.
I am offended when people pretend to pray, but they are really just giving a speech. It happens all the time, in all kinds of venues and churches. I’ve done it myself. I’m sure it offends God more than the use of a particular word. I figure that on inauguration day God was thinking, “Hey Rick! Why are you talking like that? Why don’t you talk to ME?!”
Whatever the intent of the linguistic game at the end of the prayer, I doubt that it fulfilled its intended purpose. I am quite certain that non-Christian Jews aren’t blessed to hear someone pray in the name of Yeshua. In fact, this would be likely to offend them more than if you just say Jesus. And using the Arabic name is just so obviously pandering that it can’t have made much of a positive impact. Same thing with using the Spanish pronunciation for Jesus.
But this is what happens when you give someone too much time to think about what they are going to say in a prayer, and especially when you allow staff involvement in the process. An invocation isn’t supposed to be a speech, for crying out loud. How about just saying, “God, bless this special occasion, and bless our new President. Amen.” But now you know why they don’t ask me to do these things.
Rick Warren is a great man, who is a wonderful ambassador for Christianity. I just wish they wouldn’t dress him up in a monkey suit and make him do these demeaning jumps through hoops. It is beneath him.
Would anyone like to join me in the closet…
Nobody judges prayers there….
But somebody hears…
or so I heard.
When You Pray Dread
“You guys are not going to believe this… now the President is being harassed by the press because they were not present during the second oath, nor one of “their” photographers.”
Solus, why not have the press there?
Why take a second oath at all if the people he represents arent allowed to see?
TonyP :”The problem Rick faced is that we on the sidelines wanted to hear him pronounce the Gospel”:
Tony that is the problem. Being on the “sidelines” and not in the game or engaged in the battle. Not saying that is true of you in any facet of your life or sphere of ministry.
Dave Rolph: I think Rick exhibited that He was talking to God n prayer and also trying to deliver a people appeasing speech through the medium of prayer in a monkey suit at the same time.
Let’s go engage someone outside the faith with Rick’s prayer as the starting point of conversation and come back and discuss our findings in a week.
“Would anyone like to join me in the closet…
Nobody judges prayers there….
But somebody hears…
or so I heard.”
Dread,
I also heard
That God hears
The prayers of those
who go each to his own closet
Let us be known as people of prayer,
More than people of idle chatter and endless rambling.
May our words be powerful, though few
and may they be supported by the foundation of prayer
and the desire to please and glorify Our Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ
Rick did in a public forum what we are all commanded to do–pray for our leaders. I’m so grateful that as of today anyway, he could stand in that moment that was watched by the whole world and pray to our Father.
Where is the grace and mercy extended to our brother in Christ who (I hope) was led by the Holy Spirit to say what he said? Do we not believe that the Holy Spirit can present His message even when we fumble over words?
God uses a sincere and obedient heart, and my prayer is that Rick was obedient to do and say exactly what the Holy Spirit led him to do and say. If he did, then this whole conversation is moot.
Dear Great Mixed Martial Artist in the sky,
We implore you to forgive your servant Dave for seeking to make some sense of things when all you really want him to do is create a rumble. And we pray that you would open his eyes to the great value of preachy payers, politically correct prayers, and most of all purpose-drivel prayers.
In Andy’s name I pray. Amen
“Any walks with me, Andy talks with me, Andy tells me I am His own.”
preachy prayers, not payers.
A Believer.
and Amen
pzz
AB
What does Dave know anyways? He’s the one that got behind the pulpit wearing a tee-shirt that read “CHURCH”.
AB really meant preachy payers
Been away from the computer in meetings HO I DONOT BELIEVE RICK WARREN IS A MINION OF THE DEVIL!!!!! I am saddened that that sentiment would be attached to me at all. Forgive me for not being clear–I thiought5 I was–what I was intending to say was from the rhetoric from Light House Trails and even my own CC movement, many believe he is in deed anti christian.
I donot hold to that view at all. While I donot use the same methods he does and have a different vision for my small little church, I have never once been critical of the man or even his methods. I consider him a brother in the Lord and fellow laborer in Christ.
I hope that clears it up. If not tell me and I will again express my support of the man as a being a Christian who is concerned for the lost.
Another good reminder about why I never pray in public!
Sarah
In answer to your question “How would I have prayed” I would have prayed essentially the same prayer Rick Warren did. Only problem no one would have made a big deal of it because I doubt any one would have felt I had some other agenda…as so many think Rick does…I don’t :-)feel that way about Rick…just want to make that clear. Some do…I am not one of those.
His kid,
when you quoted Spurgeon, this phrase arrested my attention:
‘What a spiritual man he is to pray as he is now doing.” Ah, my Brother, the smoke is blowing down, you see—blowing away towards man’s nostrils, and not towards God. So much waste and only waste!”
and then you followed up with another post which included this:
But we must remember that all of our prayers are less than holy. It is only through the intercession of our Lord Jesus Christ that our feeble, weak, and flesh-stained prayers can be transformed into that which is acceptable to God.
Isnt the point Spurgeon makes,
that not all prayers are accepted by God?
The ones men pray to be seen and approved of by men,
But those that are made
“Brothers and Sisters, our intercessions, when they are sweet to God, go straight up to Him.”
Now can we conclude there are prayers which God deems are sweet and go straight to Him, and there are prayers that displease him, and are blown as smoke into the nostrils of the men to whom they were purposed to please?
Cross out- “But those that are made”
Should read
Isnt this the point Spurgeon makes,
that not all prayers are accepted by God?
The ones men pray to be seen and approved of by men,
are not acceptable, but contemtuous,
and yet he says:
“Brothers and Sisters, our intercessions, when they are sweet to God, go straight up to Him.”
Now can we conclude there are prayers which God deems are sweet and go straight to Him, and there are prayers that displease him, and are blown as smoke into the nostrils of the men to whom they were purposed to please?
Michael,
I love the pic of Warren you chose for this thread.
It looks like he’s channeling the spirit of “Big daddy”.
http://xanaduwriter.com/images/burl_ives.jpg
Either that or someone just stepped on his foot.
Sister Christian,
If I understand your question correctly, then my answer is yes. I believe there were words spoken by the Pharisees that were not prayers at all, meant for men’s ears and not God’s. And yes, that displeases Him. The honest and sincere prayer to God is sweet to Him.
London
My brother doesn’t know why his site is down. but here is where you can go to view it http://www.philiphowe.com/chrishopkinsillustration/
Steve,
Tell your brother he is a great artist! Those pictures are awesome.
lookingatsomeoneeslseslinkTonyP.
“Dear Great Mixed Martial Artist”
I give you 10, for you did nor say “Ultimate Fighter”.
Steve,
So glad to hear you do not feel that way.
Steve~~
I think it was this post:
“Now I am not a Rick Warren guy and know very little about him but from my little corner of the Christian world, whether it be CC, PP or Light house Trails, it sure sounds to me like the subliminal message is this man is not from God and there is the smell of sulphur around him”
that scared Solus so…
when read quickly, sounds like you were in the same camp.
I had to go back and read it again a little more carefully,
after what you posted at 12:14
Solus and Sis
Thank you for pointing out my failure to communicate properly. I want every one to know that I have never opposed Rick Warren nor challenged his intentions. I would hate for any one to think that another pastor or Christian brother thought he was some how demonic.
I will try and communicate better
However, I cannot make any promises that my typing skills will improve
If I understand the Acts 2 account of Pentecost and the nature of the tongues used on that day I see that men were addressing God in the hearing of other men. In that context of communication it was pretty straightforward. Biblically informed Jews before biblically informed Jews.
That sparked a conversation that formed the backdrop to the well known sermon of Peter.
call me a hack missiologist vic,
TontP
I will tell him…second thought; I won’t. I don’t want it to go to his head
Steve,
Yeah, brothers can get like that.
Well, you can have the compliment for him then.
Steve,
I’m so glad you don’t think that way at him (sorry to hear others do). You can see in my posts how surprised I was. I brought it to your attention because I care about you (so that you could correct/remove the post if it was wrongly stated).
I’ve written several things that were miss-understood.
Cheers Fide
Later
” . . . [pronounced in Spanish], Jesus”
Warren is smart in a good way, imo. He not only wants to see immigrant reform but also see immigrants transformed!
I should have signed off the last post with,
Jesus is the Immanuel with no borders vic,
His Kid,
its likely we are speaking the same thing on this;
Yet, perhaps its error to think that this praying to men is solely restricted to the camp of “Pharisees”
when you write,
“The honest and sincere prayer to God is sweet to Him.”
I would agree, yet how can one know, whether it is?
I suppose it is futile to debate whether Warrens prayer was acceptable to God, or whether it was for the “hearing and praise of men” For only God would know for certain, right?
My concern is that just because someone sounds good in their delivery and it makes us feel good, and just because they say, God, Dieu, Dios, Allah, or Jesus, Yeshua, Isa,… what is the meaning? It seems so watered down anymore…whatever it means, Like Please note pointed out, “whatever the meaning of “Isa” is.”
As Please Note also pointed out earlier, Tolle and Oprah mention Jesus name repeatedly… But whats the value?
Im concerned about the vagueness of what it means to be a follower of Christ or to repeat His name…and people potentially being mislead into thinking that if they throw out his name in the same manner as one would stroke a rabbits foot,
( Not saying Warren is guilty of this BTW)
that they are good with God.
Im concerned that people think they can behave in any manner they please and it will be acceptable to God because they cover it in His name.
The pharisees called upon the name of YHWH, used it in Holy reverance, and yet, they were not accepted before God…
and even Jesus Himself said:
many people will come to me in that day,
saying ”’LORD LORD”’
and he will turn to them and say depart from me,
I NEVER KNEW YOU, workers of iniquity.
Now those are the words that scare me, not only for me, but for others
Obviously its possible for one to call Him Lord,
But Christ will turn Him away on that day…
What makes the difference?
again I ask
What makes the difference?
HK~
“For only God would know for certain, right?”
might it also be correct to add…
and our Spirits would bear witness with His spirit,
if our prayers are offered up sincerely to God and not for the pleasing of men.
Hey Steve….thanks for answering my question! And I think you are probably right!!!
Sister Christian,
I think you and I are on the same track here. Prayer is a matter of the heart and it is therefore impossible to judge another man’s prayer, no matter how ‘right’ the words seem that he/she is using. Only God can do that, and yes, I believe our Spirits bear witness with His Spirit. We know when we are being overwhelmed and amazed by His Presence in our own prayer closet.
That’s why analyzing the rightness or wrongness of this man’s prayer does not set well with me. We are treating it as if it was a sermon preached. I remember a quote that said, “Representing God before man is one thing, representing man before God is quite another.” Preaching to man is a very different thing from interceding for man before God.
Classic blast from Scottie… “Channeling the spirit of Big Daddy”
This may actually be the most useless day on PP EVER!!
Cat on a Hot Tin Dread
Can I talk to myself, too?
I can? Thanks!
Wrong thread, Brian. You’ll just confuse the masses here.
His Kid…
The only thing I would add to what you are saying is that Warren most likely wrote out (it looked like he was reading it…maybe?) his prayer beforehand, and I would say he considered what it would be saying to people as well as what it was saying to God. Whether he was actually trying to preach through a prayer, I have no idea…but I have to believe he thought carefully about what he was saying and how it would be received by the listeners.
Again, I take this as a word to me…to be careful in how I present God when I pray and others are around who don’t know Him.
Not a huge deal, but I do think when you pray before the entire nation you know people are going to look carefully at what was said. It’s quite different than praying in small groups, or even before our congregations…prayers that often are spontaneous.
First, I posted this on my blog. I’m starting a series on that thing that every Christian who’s been in the church for even a short time knows and loves:
Christianese.
http://briandblog.com/?p=389
Dread….maybe for you. Has me thinking. I’ve already been challenged by an atheist for something I posted about prayer on FB. I think it’s worth thinking about. At least it has been for me.
But Tony, it’s the most active thread.
I also want people to see this.
http://boarsheadtavern.com/2009/01/22/2748/
Ingrid’s not the only one who reads the PP. iMonk does, too
Hop-a-long
Chris’ sites back up now. I wanted to show someone “Black Angel” cause I LOVE that one. It’s not on the other site…
You should tell Chris that I’d like that one for my birthday this year.
Dread-
It’s good you’re here to judge us that we shouldn’t be judging.
Like sarah, I got a lot out of this, too. It made me articulate what was bothering me, and then see others’ points of view.
Michael even added an addendum to his original thread, and everyone was respectful.
If you don’t like a thread you can just not post; you don’t have to come on 4 or 5 times & tell people how useless their opinions are.
PN, agreed. This conversation has been informative and civil.
I still think Michael should take a couple of days and post nothing but bunnies and sunshine. That would give some folks complaint backup.
A little off topic - but everytime I hear Perry Noble I laugh. Is there anyone who stands on a stage in church who is a bigger jackass than this guy?
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2009/01/purpose-driven-hireling.html
I tuned my classroom television on for the inauguration and my students all heard RW’s prayer loud and clear. Who says you can’t get prayer in the public schools…?
As far as all the discussion regarding his content, the only ones I haven’t heard griping about his prayer are the gays.
Given the controversy, pressure, competing interests, scrutiny, and politics involved, I thought RW did a fine job. Can’t imagine what that circus is like.
TonyP, rabbit hunting is a favorite pastime of mine…
fil,
MLD,
That guy makes my scalp itch…..I only saw half of it and wanted to scream.
Please Note
Now THAT was a useful opinion…
Back into the closet…where the gays are out and so is prayer…
Come on guys a little levity elevates the whole lump.
Offthread Dread
Shows you how slow I am! It took me a while to realize that Michael’s thread topic “Isa” Big Mistake is a play on words? Duh me?
MLD,
I watched that clip from Noble. My first thought was, “What a twit.” My next thought was, “Wow! An honest mega-pastor!” While it disgusts me to hear a so-called “pastor” telling his people that he doesn’t give a rip about them, in the back of my mind I hear this voice saying, “This is not a rare attitude, just a rare admission.” On the other hand, I bet this guy can really pray up a storm.
I kinda like Perry Noble. In a manly heterosexual way of course
He says some good things - “you don’t want to know me you want to know Jesus” - but also has some things that he can be rightfully criticized for.
Maybe he should get to know his people a bit more (though, with 10,000 of them, that’s a tall order). Maybe he should give a rip.
Or, while he and the other kings are scratching each other’s backs, they’ll find that the people are bailing left and right.
How many shepards does a flock of 10,000 sheep have? Does he notice if one strays? Does he notice if one is wounded? Probably not. Churches need to maintain a size that can allow the pastor to minister as well as preach IMO.
Not only does he need a church of manageable size, but he needs to ask ‘what good it does to continually add numbers’ if the ones that he has (in his own words) make him feel uncomfortable?
This guy is wacked. In the interview he did last week with his Chief Technology Officer (BrianD’s linkathon) he gave similar comments about his ‘flock’.
Could you imagine when someone would cry out “Jesus, Jesus” that the Lord would say “go talk to Andrew, I have important stuff to do.”
Tony, many churches tell you to ‘feed yourself’.
I think the idea is to put people in small groups, and have the small group leader be their shepherd.
The pastor of a megachurch cannot totally fill that role. No way; too many people. He shouldn’t sacrifice his family on that altar.
But, I don’t think that interacting with no one is the answer either.
Take my answers for what they’re worth, by the way. I’m not a pastor. I don’t know what it’s like.
In fact, I could very well be wrong in what I believe about this.
It’s one thing to say that “the ‘Senior’ Pastor is too busy to know the flock but he tries the best he can” vs “I don’t give a rip and you make me feel uncomfortable”
But tell me that this attitude doesn’t flow down to his underlings.
MLD, you are right, and I think this is an issue that might become a big problem to the megachurch kings in coming years, especially as they seek to hold onto and add people.
My gut tells me that many people won’t put with a leader of their church who doesn’t even know what’s going on in the church.
It’s like a mayor who only pals around with other mayors and the governor and senators and congresspeople, and a few celebrities, and has no interest in what’s going on in his own city.
BrianD…for what it’s worth, that is one of the key problems I have with mega-churches, and I think MLD is right that the attitude of the senior pastor filters down to those who are supposed to actually do the pastoring.
Just my 2 cents (at least I was brief this time!)
It’s one thing for a pastor to make his family a priority & his 1st ministry (which is *right*, IMO); it’s another to give the impression that he doesn’t care if the congregation drops dead.
Sarah,
MLD is right about that, too.
(MLD, you’re right)
Noble is a classic example of someone who has no intention of being a pastor. He wants to be a CEO of a business venture, in this case it happens to be a church. From his platform, he is able to sell books and videos and be in a position to accept speaking offers and honorariums.
When the church takes place in your living room, you do not have to put up with a pastor who does not care. You put him out the door and put him on your prayer chain.
Tim,
We know he can’t be a real pastor if he refuses to go to potlucks.
that is the qualifier.
MLD
Perry doesn’t care that you don’t like him.
It kind of makes one wonder why someone who doesn’t want to be a “shepherd” would call himself a “pastor”. Surely he could make up a fancy-enough Christianeze title that would be more descriptive. “Head Teaching Elder” or somesuch. But “Pastor” certainly doesn’t fit.
MLD,
POTLUCK!!!! Now you’re speaking the ole Baptist lingo.
Tim,
Amen.
MLD -
I didn’t think it was possible to be a *Christian* and not go to potlucks.
MLD~
while I get what (Perry Noble?) is saying about the importance of people
knowing Jesus, over knowing their Pastor…
For goodness sake… Thats was so very sad…
why in the world do people flock to his church?
like Dave Rolph stated:
While it disgusts me to hear a so-called “pastor” telling his people that he doesn’t give a rip about them, in the back of my mind I hear this voice saying, “This is not a rare attitude, just a rare admission.”
Hey MLD~
I was just reading this morning that Dietrich Bonhoffer (sp?) was a Lutheran. Is it true? From the bits I have read about him, he appears to be more of an activist in his faith than a pacifist.
Bob,
But I do like him! Comic relief - and his wife dresses him funny.
Bob,
Perry does care that MLD doesn’t like him. When him and I were talking earlier, he said that is one of the things that keeps him up at night.
And less money in the bucket….
Tim…how about itinerant preacher. Then he doesn’t have to worry about commitment to a group.
Hey MLD…did you see that?! I actually agreed with you!!!
Hey everyone,
Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0r_FbARIn8
Get used to Perry Noble. He’ll be around awhile.
Megachurches are the denoms of the 21st century.
Sister,
Although Bonhoffer was a Lutheran, his theology was quite confusing as were many of his writings. He was greatly influenced by Karl Barth and the neo orthodox movement (which was actually a reaction to the liberal stance the European Lutherans were takimg) - but then he also ended up at Union Theological Seminary which was about as liberal a university as you could find.
But I will claim him as a Lutheran any day. European theology was really screwed up in the late 19th century, early 20th century - however today it is almost non existent.
Sarah,
“Hey MLD…did you see that?! I actually agreed with you!!!”
Sign of the end times!
‘Get used to Perry Noble. He’ll be around awhile.
Megachurches are the denoms of the 21st century.”
I think you’re right. And I think it’s sad to see the body short change themselves in so many ways. What people are willing to give up in order to vicariously associate themselves with perceived greatness.
Lord have mercy.
an interesting read on “Isa”
http://www.answering-islam.org/Intro/islamic_jesus.html
I think this was a sloppy attempt to be all things to all men
The thing that bugged me the most about what Noble said is that he doesn’t have time to spend with people who make him uncomfortable. Everyone in my church makes me uncomfortable at times. Today was my counseling day and the whole day was uncomfortable. I spent an hour crying with a couple whose 15 year old son just died suddenly. Talk about uncomfortable. But that is nothing compared to having nails driven through your hands and feet. Come on!
Anyone who is not willing to deny oneself, take up their cross, and follow, is not even worthy of the title “Christian” much less the title “Pastor.”
In this clip, Noble challenges the people to give him one scripture that says people need to know their pastor. If the Good Shepherd said “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me” then shouldn’t under shepherds who take the title of “pastor” conduct themselves likewise?
I can’t personally and intimately know every person who comes to my church. But I am available to all of them when they have needs, and I get to know as many of them as I can. I care about them. The day I stop caring about my people, and what they think, is the day I hang it up for good.
His Kid-
“Should we be analyzing a man’s heart-felt communion with God?”
After posting Spurgeon just before this you can honestly believe that is what Rick was doing?
“Brothers and Sisters, our intercessions, when they are sweet to God, go straight up to Him. Do your prayers always do that? Have you ever prayed thinking, “Well, that is a very nice expression which I have used. My learned Brethren will be pleased with that. My spiritual friends will be able to join in that and they will think, ‘What a spiritual man he is to pray as he is now doing.” Ah, my Brother, the smoke is blowing down, you see—blowing away towards man’s nostrils, and not towards God.”-Spurgeon
This could not be a clearer picture of Rick’s intent. To please men. His prayer was not, could not be heard by God. His very attitude of needing to use a name pleasing to men assures this. Why does he even think this is necessary. Again to do nothing more than to please men.
Somehow I think you missed the entire point of your Spurgeon quote. We are not to pray to be pleasing to men. There is no other reason on earth or in Heaven for Rick to have used these other names. Does God not know who He is? His entire prayer is contrived and false. Nothing more than a show. Maybe he should have reached out to pedophiles, or murderers, or Buddhists. Oh sorry forgot, he’s supposed to be reaching to God, not anyone else.
IMO, he did nothing but bend over backwards to please our new Universalist President. What else is Rick willing to compromise for the sake of being unoffensive or to be pleasing to men?
God Bless you in your 3;33 comment Dave!
May He continue to increase you in the compassion, love and care for those to whom he has called you to tend and to feed.
May He strengthen you as you deny yourself, pick up your cross, follow Him…
as you seek to walk by His Spirit, in accordance with his words,
That goes out, not only for you,
But each and every pastor who posts and reads here
who desires to do the same.
Hi Dewd,
No, I don’t think I missed the point–that *was* the point I was trying to make. Our prayers are to be directed to God, not to men.
I believe we are in dangerous territory when we presume to judge another man’s heart, though.
And there are other possible reasons for Rick using the language he used–I think you’ve made a leap in saying you can discern his intent.
In the context of the prayer, all he was doing was saying the name of Jesus in different languages. Isa is just the name of Jesus in Arabic (also Farsi). Many believers in the middle east refer to Jeus as Isa. I thnk someone wants to pick a fight for the sake of fighting.
Keith Jay….just curious, did you read the entire thread?
A Believer,
That was so beautiful! What a fine young man. Thank you.
His Kid,
when you write:
“Should we be analyzing a man’s heart-felt communion with God?”
If one cannot say,
“His entire prayer is contrived and false.”
How can one say…
“it was heart felt to God?”
Im just curious,
when people say,( or rather judge if you will)
“His heart felt prayer” or to say his prayer is heart felt.
and thats okay
But to say,
its contrived, or was to please men,
then one is judging wrongly.
Dont take what Im saying to be antagonistic
I am trying to understand the perspective presented here.
“There is no other reason on earth or in Heaven for Rick to have used these other names. Does God not know who He is? His entire prayer is contrived and false. Nothing more than a show.
IMO, he did nothing but bend over backwards to please our new Universalist President. What else is Rick willing to compromise for the sake of being unoffensive or to be pleasing to men?”
here dewd4jesus makes me think…
Why pray in three/four names,
Why not just the one?
If he is indeed praying to God? HMMM something to ponder
Sister Christian,
You’re right. I can’t judge that Rick’s prayer is heartfelt any more than I can judge that it is to please men. But I do believe that he is my brother in Christ and for that reason I want to believe the best of him.
As far as using three/four names…when I pray with other people (not alone in my prayer closet) I often use words that are inclusive to the other Christians with me, because I try to be aware that we are coming to the Lord as a group, I try to pray in a way that we are all truly praying in agreement and together…where two or more are gathered. It seemed to me that Rick was using language that included all the Believers so that we could all be in unified in praying for our leader as God commanded us.
A.BD - room in that closet for one more?
Perry Noble: Read Ezekiel 34 and then go re-read what Jesus said to Peter at the end of John’s gospel.
Sister Christian-
You got my point right on the money. Why write it the way he did? Why address God in multiple languages? He understands them all. He knows who you’re talking to. There is no other reason to do so except to appease men. IMO.
His Kid- I do not, nor am able to discern Rick’s heart. However, I can discern the spirit in which his words were written and prayed. Let’s not forget we do have gifts available to us. My other question would be:
If you don’t think that this Spurgeon quote applies to Rick, then what is your purpose in posting it? I think you will find The Spirit gave it to you. We are not called to judge men. But we are called to judge what comes out of their mouth.
Do I have discernment in this matter? Since it’s what I asked for, and God is faithful, I’d have to say yes. Of Rick’s heart, no, of the blatant premise of trying to appease men, especially the Muslims of this country, yes. He fit himself right in with “The One’s” Universalist views. The Lord said He would be an offense. But somewhere we’ve gotten this notion that we must do everything we can to keep Him from being an offense. If I speak the truth and someone is offended, sorry, but what more an offense to patronize people and not present them with the Truth. It is misleading to the Muslims of the world, and to believers who are not spiritually mature enough to discern for themselves, to include a name which represents Jesus as just a prophet, it confirms for the Muslims that He is who their scriptures say, and confuses immature believers that this prominent “man of God” would use this name from an opposing religion.
But, who else is he possibly addressing by using this? Not God. He knows who He is. If he had simply used Jesus, not anything else, would there have been any confusion as to whom he was praying to? No. But there is now?
Vic- agree that this can be an opening, a springboard into conversation. But we also need to remember that that door needs to be opened by the Spirit first. Always ready, doesn’t mean just using it because it’s there. If we’re not Spirit led into the conversation, it’s of our flesh and amounts to naught. Not saying you’re implying anything but that, just a danger to be aware of. Just because it can be an ice breaker, doesn’t mean it always should.
All- To those of you who know me, howdy! To those who might, howdy too! And those of you who don’t, you’re probably better off anyway. I look forward to enjoying the blessing of being a part of the discussions on PP. Have been a lurker for sometime. My hope is that the Lord will give me something to say that will be a blessing to us and bring glory to Him.
Jesus Dewd: You look familiar.
Let’s try putting a couple of things in context.
Did you have a conversation with Rick about why and how he composed his prayer? Spiritual gifts are defined for us in the Scripture for the edifying of the body and are valid in expression in the context of the one another commandments of Scripture.
I.e. you and Rick either present together with one another or in conversation together.
Oftentimes spiritual gifting (though well intended) is used subjectively as a reason to cover and add weight to opinion which may or may not have a foundation of plausibility.
As to the Spirit’s leading. Some objectivity to provide a challenge to our subjectivity.
Jesus in John 16 in reference to the Spirit’s ongoing, normal and comprehensive activity that forms the basis of and validates our witness.
John 16: 4-11
““I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.”
This ongoing work of the Spirit commenced on the Day of Pentecost recorded for us in Acts 2.
Welcome to the PP.
I did read the whole thread, and it saddens me to see someone, who in his own heart, was trying to be true to his faith pray for the new president, and at the same time share how Jesus changed his life. Would it have been better for him to have just said, “Lord, please guide and direct our new president and keep him and his family safe.”? Probably, but it buggs me to see everyone pick this guy apart. I have no alligences here, I am just a believer in Christ with no agenda. Having spent a lot of time in the Middle East and having shared my faith with Muslims, I preach to them Isa. Christianity is a political thing to them, so I don’t preach Christianity- I preach Isa. They have a respect for him, so that is a good starting point.
In my humble opinion, all Warren did was make an attempt to tie Isa into the Jesus of the Bible. If it was a clumsy attempt, the Holy Spirit can work it out in the minds of those who heard it.
For what it is worth, a friend of mine from Seattle named Tom Griffith wrote two books in the 80s designed to witness to Muslims. He had studied the Quran extensively and used passages in it to preach the gospel in his books. It was his contention that if a Muslim really believed the Quran that he would have enough information from it to believe in Christ for salvation. I can’t and won’t defend his books because I didn’t even read them. But, I thought it was worth mentioning in relation to Rick Warren’s prayer.
Keith, though not a missionary to Muslims in terms of direct experience nad calling I have nevertheless spent a considerable amount of time in conversation with those who expended their lives in Muslim countries sharing the Jesus of the Gospels.
I validate your witness and the works done for the glory of God amongst the people of Islamic cultures.
I’m not a missionary, I’ve just spent a lot of time over there over the past few years and try and take opportunities to share the Lord.
I thought it was a good prayer, and I choose to believe the best about RW. I think his use of Isa was more ignorance than malintent.
I’ve only read about half the thread so far, but I kept waiting to see posts from Richard Abanes. Oh Riiiiiiichaaaaaarrrrrd!
A woman who has posted her in the past is struggling right now and needs prayer and encouragement. Her name is Rachel and she has a blog at http://www.notesfromthewell.wordpress.com where her last two posts describe her trials.
If you would maybe you might visit and drop her a note to encourage her and let her know you’re praying. Thank you. Allan
Cap’n Kevin….he’s on, just one post…somewhere up there.
I first saw references to Warren’s prayer at Jihad Watch. Robert Spencer noted that in the prayer, when Warren used the phrase, “the compassionate, the merciful’:
“The compassionate, the merciful” is, of course, a reference to the invocation at the beginning of every chapter of the Qur’an except one: Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim, “In the name of Allah, the compassionate, the merciful.”
Here is a link: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024478.php
You may call it coincidence or not. My own opinion is that Warren has had enough encounters with Muslims to be well aware of what he says.
I also know that Warren spoke at the 8th Annual Muslim Public Affairs Council in California in December. He appears to have been a main speaker. A search can be done so that a personal evaluation can be made.
Because Jesus was born a Hebrew a case can be made for using Yeshua. However, we are not an Arabic speaking nation. I looked at Wiki, and according to the 2000 census, after English, the top ten languages spoken in our country by population numbers are Spanish, Chinese languages, French, German, Tagalog, Vietnamese, Italian, Korean, and Russian. Polish is 11 and Arabic is 12. Why didn’t Warren speak the name of Jesus in these other languages as well?
hmmm, read all the thots presented here today, I think -
I’m trying to separate two concerns: the very legitimate instinct to defend our Savior’s name and a critique of a public prayer … if I were a follower of the Qaran(sp?), would I come away smug that the prayer “respected” my view of Jesus or would I note this man’s focus on Jesus? If I were a follower of the Qaran, I might be offended as he wasn’t praying to my god. Warren was obviously making Jesus the focus of his prayer.
Perhaps, what is needed is a Church that **worships** the name of Jesus once “we leave the building.” I need to be more jealous of my Savior’s name when I’m out and about … just still pondering
my thoughts on the Warren prayer:
My ears perked up when I heard the name Isa, & I immediately thought the same things as Michael.
True, the Jesus of the bible is misunderstood thru the eyes of Muslims, whom they call Isa in Arabic. So, is it misleading to associate the word “Isa” to the Biblical Jesus? If that is misleading then wouldn’t the usage of Yeshua, too?…After all, the traditional Jewish understanding of Jesus, Yeshua in Hebrew is also convoluted and tainted.
What about Paul’s address to the Mars Hill gang about the “unknown God”. His idea of the Unknown God was pregnant with life, beauty and salvation thru Jesus, while the Greeks’ understanding was far from close to Paul’s. Could not Paul, while being judged by this same matrix be accused as being, “ecumenical”.
Personally, I think that Warren was operating in the same attitude as Paul at Mars hill, and thru wisdom choose these words carefully.
I find it interesting that we spent an entire day deciding whether or not a well know Christian and pastor’s use of the Arab name for Jesus was responsible or not.
Is it that important? Aren’t there other more productive issues that warrant our efforts? And when the time comes will be give those issues as much attention?
I think it’s a greater infraction that I can’t get people to serve our kids in SS than whether Rick Warren used the name Isa in a public setting of a diverse culture.
I think it’s a crime that people will watch the tv show Lost and not minister to their neighbor
This statement is not intended to speak ill of the people here nor of the question asked that started this thread. Simply to get us to think a little about where our priorities are
Bryan Stupar
Met a guy at Western Seminary last week who came from your church. He’s up in the Portland area working with another guy with skaters. We had a good conversation. Seemed like a bright guy…can’t remember his name though
Steve…was his name Tim? Did he have glasses?
The guys who pastors Eden bible church is from our fellowship too.
http://www.edenbible.com/
We had a truckload of San Luis Obispo people migrate to Portland..
Some Thoughts,
Islamic worship is growing all around the world, and in Europe it is a major force and has even displaced Christianity in adherents in some countries. Rick Warren’s use of the name Isa in his prayer was thinking not of all of the languages in the world, but of all of the religions. The Quran is written in Arabic, and though it is translated into other languages, it is the Arabic that the Muslim’s believe is inspired. That is why Rick Warren used the name of Isa, right or wrong.
“I looked at Wiki, and according to the 2000 census, after English, the top ten languages spoken in our country by population numbers are Spanish, Chinese languages, French, German, Tagalog, Vietnamese, Italian, Korean, and Russian. Polish is 11 and Arabic is 12. Why didn’t Warren speak the name of Jesus in these other languages as well?”
No doubt, his selection was for a very specific purpose,
Does any one doubt that Rick Warren paid careful attention to every word he said?
Sis -
Is there any reason to assume that RW wasn’t trying to *reach* Muslims with his prayer & point them to the Jesus of the Bible?
I’m really in a strange position here. I have no affinity for RW at all. I can’t stand the PD Church stuff & think it’s been the downfall of many good churches. Yet here I am defending RW all day. Go figure.
Bryan
I don’t know if Tim is his name. He didn’t have glasses although he may have worn glasses. He said he was on staff with you; big but well trimmed guy with closely cropped hair. There was another guy with him smaller, who wore glasses who may have been Tim.
The young man I spoke with may have been in his 30’s; was personal, friendly and articulate. Does that Help?
Why would a bunch of people from SLO migrate to rainy (but very cool) Portland?
May have worn “contacts” not glasses
Bryan -
If it helps, I wasn’t the one Steve was talking to.
Tim
I am with you on Rick Warren..I don’t know about him or what he does and am rather indifferent to his ministry but your points are right on concerning this matter. Hold the line Bro.!
“I think it’s a crime that people will watch the tv show Lost and not minister to their neighbor…
…Simply to get us to think a little about where our priorities are.”
Steve Hopkins,
Its a shame that many will devote more time to a TV show, than taking time to minister to a neighbor.
But as far as taking time here, to post and dialogue,
for me, especially on this issue,
Sine Im preparing to go into a country where 25% of the population is Muslim and Growing, and one of my dearest friends is a missionary in Indonesia where roughly over 90% are muslim…
This is of great concern to me,
Its not Warren using the word Isa, as others have stated,
Esa, and one of my other Muslim friends states that most of the muslims she knows use, Eisa for Jesus…
Its HOW the name is used,
and its used by Muslims who hold to Islamic beliefs, as well as Christians who call Eisa their Saviour.
I think one aspect revealed is the lack of understanding of How to effectively reach out to Muslims, as we should…
another reasom for my participation here,
Is that it is one of the best places for me,
to test what I sense God is showing me,
in a safe environment, to get feed back from the body of Christ,
causing me to search the scriptures more intently,
to pray more, to develope my understanding of others veiwpoints,
and so very much more.
I for one, am so thankful for these conversations,
especially when pastors integrate with the laity
in honest and caring ways for the edification of the body,
and for the building up of the saints
and for the defense of the faith.
The true faith and the true Gospel.
Steve Hopkins~ ( Still want to call you Sola Fide!)
besides, I think Im more typing challenged than you are,
and it helps practicing to type…
so , in the mean time…please be gracious in regards to my typing errors…
Sis
I appreciate your love of Gods Word and passion for holiness so much…
Just wanted you to know that.
You are a defender of the sacred.
Sister Christian,
I feel this way too…
“another reasom for my participation here,
Is that it is one of the best places for me,
to test what I sense God is showing me,
in a safe environment, to get feed back from the body of Christ,
causing me to search the scriptures more intently,
to pray more, to develope my understanding of others veiwpoints,
and so very much more.
I for one, am so thankful for these conversations,
especially when pastors integrate with the laity
in honest and caring ways for the edification of the body,
and for the building up of the saints
and for the defense of the faith.
The true faith and the true Gospel.”
Jim B~
“Rick Warren’s use of the name Isa in his prayer was thinking not of all of the languages in the world, but of all of the religions.”
Well at least three… Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
but how would that fit with him saying it in Spanish?
Why not French, Chinese, and Korean?
HMMM…..
Wast it some in this very group that were saying RW wouldnt even mention Jesus name?
Now he does and he is blasted for how he chose to use Jesus name…
Is he ever going to be spiritual enough for some?
OOOh and where is the apology from those who said he wouldnt even use Jesus name in the prayer now that it is over and he most certainly used it, in different languages, followed by the apostles prayer?
Another reason for my participation here is Michael introduced me to a whole new Jesus. A Jesus who offends. A Jesus who puts His Father’s Kingdom first. A Jesus who loves people, nurtures, loves and cares for them… teaches them about His Father’s kingdom. The past few weeks, I have been reading about the Jesus of Nazareth and while reading about Jesus, I thought about Michael… when I read the words… “the most dangerous and radical man ever to walk the face of the earth.”
Tears spilled from my eyes, because I love the dangerous and radial Jesus. And, Michael showed Him to me. Michael showed me Jesus’ righteous anger, a Jesus who defended His Father’s House of Prayer, a Jesus who loved and was courageous enough to stand against the Pharisees; and a Jesus who healed, showed mercy and grace…
Beautiful, Solus…
Well at least RW put whatshisname on everyones lips…
What He Said Dread
Why is Rick Warren praying to the Goddess Isis?
Sis and Solus
I think it’s good to discuss this issue and here on the PP. But my earnest question is; does it deserve an entire days discussion in light of other important issues…It’s just a question and an observation and I think you guys know me well enough to know the spirit in which I ask the question
Solus,
That post meant more to me than I have words to express.
Thank you
“Sis -
Is there any reason to assume that RW wasn’t trying to *reach* Muslims with his prayer & point them to the Jesus of the Bible?”
Tim,
Im concerned about the vagueness of what it means to be a follower of Christ today, at the flippancy by which many toss around the name of Jesus,
many of my unsaved relatives say “Jesus” and” Jesus Christ”
But does saying His Name, draw people to Him?
or to repeat His name…and people potentially being mislead into thinking that if they throw out his name in the same manner as one would stroke a rabbits foot,or carry a talisman
( Not saying Warren is guilty of this BTW)
that they are good with God, that they are protected and covered?
Isnt it more than just repeating his name?
Im concerned that people think they can behave in any manner they please and it will be acceptable to God because they cover it in His name.
The pharisees called upon the name of YHWH, used it in Holy reverence, and yet, they were not accepted before God…
and even Jesus Himself said:
many people will come to me in that day,
saying ”’LORD LORD”’
and he will turn to them and say depart from me,
I NEVER KNEW YOU, workers of iniquity.
Now those are the words that scare me, not only for me, but for others
Obviously its possible for one to call Him Lord,
But Christ will turn Him away on that day…
What makes the difference?
again I ask
What makes the difference?
What makes the difference, if we call Him, IAM, ISA, Eisa, Jesu,
Jesus, with an American, British, Spanish or French accent, The Living Word, we can even Call Him Lord….
But what makes the difference between those who he says:
Well donr thou good an faithful servant, enter in to the joy of the Lord,
and Depart from me, I Never knew you, you workers of iniquity?
They both called Him LORD.
Now I realize, I detracted from your question a bit,
as far as Ricks prayer, Ive only thought about it in light of this thread, then reading it, and watching it.
reading Spurgeons quote, arrested my attention:
‘What a spiritual man he is to pray as he is now doing.” Ah, my Brother, the smoke is blowing down, you see—blowing away towards man’s nostrils, and not towards God. So much waste and only waste!”
Im more inclined to think in light of several comments he made,
in addition to using the four names, was to capture public and the Presidents sentiments, not the ear of God.
Its only what I sense in my spirit.
But it not my inclination that counts, is it?
Its Gods…
Freak,
I dont think its the same people who were posting RW wouldnt use the name Jesus, that are the same ones discussing his use of four.
Sister,
“The pharisees called upon the name of YHWH, used it in Holy reverence, and yet, they were not accepted before God…”
It wasn’t their behavior that endangered the pharisees - they were the epitome of ‘following the rules’. In fact, they thought that following the rules was ‘cool’.
Now, I do agree with you about saying ‘the name of Jesus’ - people, especially preachers use it like a mantra. I don’t think that when the scriptures says to ‘ask in my name’ that Jesus meant for people to tag it on the end of prayers.
Solus Christus, Amen! Wonderful words sister!
Nomans, Thank you so very much.
Steve, the big guy from western was probably Dave Berry, the guy who now pastors Eden Bible. The little guy was Tim Fox. both are very good friends of mine.
Over the past 3 years we have seen over 50 people leave SLO to go to Portland for various reasons ranging from: cheaper homes, Western University, join a cult…(just kidding), Church plants, jobs.
One of these days I’m gonna get up there to visit all SLO diaspora church family.
Christianese for nitpicking:
Straining at gnats while swallowing camels.
All choked up,
Anne
Michael
“I think it’s good to discuss this issue and here on the PP. But my earnest question is; does it deserve an entire days discussion in light of other important issues…It’s just a question and an observation and I think you guys know me well enough to know the spirit in which I ask the question.”
Its good to ask the question Sola Fide. and it bears worth consideration,
Ive been discussing it, because thats whats being discussed today,
One of my friends is asking for prayer for their adoption process of an Indonesian baby, in a muslim country,
One of my friends is asking prayer for his application to the Sherrifs academy, to be able to provide for his bride
One of my friends is concerned because they are overseas and only living on $200 a month support
One of my friends is serving with his wife in Juarez where people are being murdered at a rate of 100 a month, and they are asking for prayer for safety and effectiveness to reach out to those who are lost and dying…
yes, Im sure we could find alot more thing to talk about that may be of more value,
But, whats of value to me, and whats of value to you
might not be what others are interested in talking about.
When i go back into an Atheistic country,
and the conversations will be much more intense and divided
it will be quite important to know how to engage with tact and understanding, yet firmly rooted in the scripture.
I wont have the luxury to spend as much time here.
Next week, I begin the last three gen ed courses to complete my seminary program,then packing and moving, so I wont be able to participate as much,
Maybe I overindulged this week…
actually,
it would be nice to discuss, JimBs book
“The Body of Christ in all her Glory”
Its awesome, and I hope to share some quotes here, as its been a tremendous blessing to read.
Interesting to me that today no one mention that the first presidential order from this administration was to close Gitmo.
Pretty sure no matter what you call him, Jesus isn’t to fond of torturing people…
but what do I know, I don’t pray right either…
Steve,
Earlier I tried to steer the conversation away from RW and on to that clown Perry Noble - he is a much greater danger to the church than Rick Warren.
Between him and Steven Furtick you wonder if people in the Carolinas are under some sort of spell.
Sister Christian,
I just received JimB’s book: “The Body of Christ In All Her Glory”. I plan to start reading it in the next day or two. I would love to discuss Jim’s book online with you.
Sis, I showed the book to my husband and said, “Honey, I blog with the author of this book.” I was sort of boasting…
He said, “Really?” “Really, honey.” He said, “Cool.” lol 
My husband knows who Jim is because I read some of his posts to him now and then.
Solus,
I would LOVE to discuss the book with you! My husband and i are reading it together, we are at Ch 5.
In the Intro: he speaks of campfire logs burning and crackling, sparks flying. Every once in awhile, the spark doesnt die out, but catches and ignites a new fire…
His hope is that this story will spark and set our hearts ablaze for Gods Glory and for revival in the church.
“The body of Christ, as the salt and light she was meant to be to the people of this world”
With an intro like that,
we can really look fwd to the discussion,
in unity, love and grace! Im excited ru?
London,
End the torture,
yet its being reported that many families who lost loved ones during 9/11 are anything but thrilled about the way he has gone about it.
Sister Christian,
It sounds like a wonderful book. I will start reading it tomorrow morning. Maybe we can take one chapter at a time (?). Let’s ask Michael to create a place for us to discuss Jim’s book… Oh, M…i…k…e…y. Steve, are you game?
Good for Obama, I’m not for torture either.
Hopefully his very next step will be to shut down the baby butcher factories.
Nah, he’ll probable save the fireants instead.
MLD,
Have you read Jim’s book?
btw: I received “The Fire and the Staff” too. Thick…
Solus,
is there a good time we can set aside for discussions too?
Wanted to welcome:
Keith Jay,
Freak
Some thoughts
and
dewd4 jesus.
Not sure if you have each posted before,
Thanks so much for your contribution and insight today!
Hey Everyone-
My pastor always taught me, ‘Be careful never to judge another man’s prayer’
I’ll leave my thoughts at that.
Blessing
I echo Sister Christian’s welcome to the new posters, and hope they’ll stick around and continue to post.
Especially dewd4jesus - you know why
Thanks for the welcome, but i’ve been here awhile. Saw the topic and remembered back when Concerned and the ODM supporters were blasting RW and saying he wouldn’t use Jesus name, I said then that he would and asked them if they would eat thier hats if they were wrong. Of course instead the topic just gets diverted to hoe he did it wrong, so they don’t look like hypocrites.
Would be awesome to see just one of them own up to thier hypocrisy and post a retraction of thier besmearching the man of Gods name. Wont happen of course, but it would be refreshing
London
Re: Gitmo
His closing down the place was probably more political than any thing. I think it’s going to take 4 years before it’s really shut down from the “torture”. Never mind the fact that of the 200 or so prisoners that were returned to their homes 65 were re arrested for terrorist acts against our country.
Just for the record… EVERYONE I heard talk about Warren and his prayer LOVED IT….
The all applauded the way he got around those who would hinder him from using Jesus name….one of the best comments I heard was …. “Hey Warren really did a number on the politically correct crowd by saying Jesus name every way you can think of.”
At the time I just thought he prayed a Jesus storm over them and then when I actually saw what he said… I had to come to PP to find all the indignity… The peeps thought is was great.
Looking Forward to TGIF Dread
Dreadlock
I never thought of it like that!!! Pretty awesome…Ha!
What’s that saying Hoppy…oh yeah…”Better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to prision”
btw- it was written in the 1700s BC (before culture)
Of course it was political. It’s what people across the world have been asking America to do for years now. There’s got to be a better way, a higher standard than that for American prisions. That’s not how America should treat people. and yeah, yeah, I know they are accused of being potential terrorists. What about that other saying we used to have round here…something about “innocent until proven guilty” something like that anyway…
A much bigger issue to me is the growing intimidation on the part of so-called messianics … most of em are wannabes… against anyone who actually uses the name Jesus. It is not even likely that his own mother called him Yeshua…
There is so much of a gathering storm on this issue in the grass roots it is going to be a big problem and divide a great many churches.
Likewise there is a growing and coming war over holidays…. the Messianic line is that Christians are practicing paganism… this idea is catching some footing… I expect it to be incredibly dividing. There is such a growing Jewish ethnocentrism among us that we are going to be astonished. Get ready to be called an anti-semite if you do not conform to this whole movement. Already I am hearing Paul called an anti-semite in some quarters.
Kosher Dread
I can think of some GREAT ways to close GITMO…
L
When I say it was political, I meant that signing the decree to close it “doesn’t” close it. It will remain open for 4 more years. So he wins in that people get to cheer and chant O BA MA and George Bush picks up the tab.
Innocent until proven guilty is in reference to those accused of a crime. These people are prisoners of war and fall under the guide lines of the Geneva convention not the US constitution.
But of course the detainees in Gitmo are not considered soldiers Under the Geneva Convention because they don’t wear uniforms!
L
What I am saying is of those we release to ease our conscience, many return to their country to fight again…against us. Doesn’t make sense to me.
I like MacArthur in the South Pacific. He threatened to bury each Muslim who fought against Americans in pigs blood.
Sounds a little more humane…:mrgreen:
Where’s Jack Bauer when you need him
So are you saying because it will take 4 years (where’d you come up with that btw?) he shouldn’t do it? Are you also saying that he should just hold all those people in that prision as “pows” because some of them MIGHT go back and fight against us?
Just trying to get what you think the guy should do…sounds to me like it’s just another case of damnned if you do, dammned if you don’t.
I prefer MacGyver
L
What I am saying is that although he signed to release the prisoners, it won’t actually happen for 4 years. Some are under the delusion that they’ll all be back home with their families next week or something.But it ain’t so…so it was a wise political move: he is seen as keeping his promise but in reality, the pows will remain in custody for 4 more years and be interrogated. So he wins on both end. He keeps the detainees for 4 more years and looks like a good guy.
No, I don’t see the reasoning in releasing known demonstrated terrorists to hurt innocent Americans again.
Where’d I come up with the 4 years…It’s the reality of the decision and it’s been on the news…not NBC OR CBS OR ABC…my god they elected the guy and certainly want to see him succeed so I wouldn’t expect them to report that little bit of truth because it might taint their messiah’s image. But other news programs report it.
Most will still remain in custody just transferred to other prisons. There is talk about reopening Alcatraz
Oh the “other news’ programs
The ones that always tell the truth about everything. I guess I don’t get that channel on my tv.
To me it’s at least movement in the right direction.
And Steve, how would you determine which of those people are innocent and which are going to go blow up innocent Americans. Many of those people haven’t even had a trial yet.
It’s the torture I have issues with, and the not getting a fair trial, or any kind of trial for that matter. If they are POWs then fine, call them that, just don’t torture them in the name of “innocent Americans”. That goes against the Geneva Convention and it’s ethically reprehensible.
SJH- I’m wiped…I’m going to go to bed. Yak atcha later.
L
I so wish folk would get off’a’ Rick Warren’s back. I also wish that folk would not keep repeating that “gays hate Rick Warren” as if ‘we’ are some giant monolith with one brain, one breath, one opinion. I LOVE Rick and admire him greatly. While I am not a friend of his personally, I was once in a home fellowship with folk who WERE close friends of his. I have ALWAYS been aware that Rick did not share my views on homosexuality. I have had many spirited discussions at Saddleback with the folk who staff the “Salt and Light” group. They are the folk who challenge many moral issues: among them homosexuality, abortion, etc. While his stand on Prop 8 was highly irritating to me personally, I was NOT surprised.
Kat(a ‘gay’ who loves Rick Warren)
I just read through a big chunk of the blog in one sitting, and I think I understand a bit Dread and Steve’s frustration. Not to draw this out, and maybe I am off, but it feels a bit like we just kept talking past each other. We kept coming on and just re-iterating our thoughts rather than really engaging and moving to what the point means for us personally. Sister Christian did try to make some application, and I tried once…but mostly it’s the same thoughts repeated a lot. And, I’d agree that that can get tiresome and not benefit a lot.
So, I’m sitting here this morning with just a little coffee in me, and I’m wondering what we do. When Michael posts threads, I think he ultimately wants us to do more than just lob thoughts at each other. He wants us to engage in a way that maybe impacts how we think and act outside the blog. (I know….I really am brilliant!)Can we come in a way that we try to engage to be challenged and changed, not just to entrench more fully in what we already think? When Michael is working and can’t be on as much, how do we take a thread like this and think about it in a way that helps us live out our faith in our real world?
I don’t know…I may be reading too much into this. Just my ramblings this morning.
They may close Gitmo, but I’m praying for torture to be instituted in public school classrooms.
Sarah, I agree with you. It seems as if we are not interacting here. I hope I did somewhat when I responded to what SteveHopkins said…..but I must admit that I too, wanted to share my opinions. That’s good, but I needed to do better and also acknowledging the posts of others. Regarding Rick……he’s a wysiwyg kind of guy. NO hidden agenda, and he’s the least changed person I know who’s gone from relative obscurity to the National limelight in a few relatively short years. Let us also not forget that his family is going through a HUGE trial right now with the illness of his daughter-in-law. (okay, what’s that got to do with his spirituality?
HE LIFTS UP JESUS! IN THE PRAYER HE LIFTED UP JESUS! HE DIDN’T WATER DOWN OUR SAVIOR JESUS! Folk were ‘worried’ that he’d end the prayer with “in Jesus Name”……because it wasn’t “inclusive” of non-Christians. He not only did that, he went much, much farther than that. Like Steve said, gays picket him, the church doesn’t like that OH MY GAWD HE SAID ISA!!! He caught the attention of some Ayyyyyyyrabs! I’m thinkin’ if I can love this guy and cut him some serious slack, so can the rest of Christendom!
hmph! (rant over) :o)
CaptKevin, regarding your 5:52……I feel much that way when I am in the middle of teaching cutandpaste to 32 kindergarteners! Oy VEH, it’s scary! If I had my way, white glue would not be allowed until 5th grade! BTW, they HAVE instituted torture in public schools…..but it’s the teachers who are the recipients……and white glue is it’s name!
Kat…you crack me up.
Regarding Pres. Obama’s executive orders on Gitmo…
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17841.html
Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
Sarah 5:23…well said. I didn’t participate in the discussion yesterday for some of the reasons you suggested.
It’s a new day, though, and kat and Capt. Kevin must face torture in the classroom (I know it well!) Prayers for you teachers today.
“When Michael posts threads, I think he ultimately wants us to do more than just lob thoughts at each other. He wants us to engage in a way that maybe impacts how we think and act outside the blog…. Can we come in a way that we try to engage to be challenged and changed, not just to entrench more fully in what we already think?”
Wow.
OK, if that is what you want, here is a suggestion:
Use the term “concede” or equivalent once in a while.
As in, “I concede that Todd appears to have made some mistakes.”
I have used phrases like that perhaps five or ten times in three years of posting. Not enough. “Yes, you have a point that…”, “I admit that …”, etc.
Other than Dave Rolph and Dread admitting that I did in fact prove that Todd Bentley preached the gospel, I very rarely see that sort of graciousness here.
We are all so eager to come back with our rebuttal that we cannot respond with any sort of recognition that the person on the other side may have a point.
That is what I call “moving the conversation forward”: Establishing what it is that we agree upon, in order that we may move on to clarify exactly where it is that we disagree.
Sarah (5:23) wrote: “Not to draw this out, and maybe I am off, but it feels a bit like we just kept talking past each other. We kept coming on and just re-iterating our thoughts rather than really engaging and moving to what the point means for us personally. Sister Christian did try to make some application, and I tried once…but mostly it’s the same thoughts repeated a lot. And, I’d agree that that can get tiresome and not benefit a lot.”
Sarah,
Can you explain more of what you are saying here, please? About you and Sister Christian’s comments compared to the rest who posted yesterday.
I really don’t understand what you are saying. Thanks.
Solus…Sorry, I probably shouldn’t have isolated just Sister and my comments. I had a post asking the pastors how they would have prayed, and tried to think through the implications of how I pray when unbelievers are listening. Just trying to understand more than simply the implication of RW’s use of Isa. Sister Christian made clear that she was trying to understand the dialog because of the implications on how phrasing will be seen when she leaves for France and is in a less Christian country.
I was prompted by Steve’s post…his frustration that maybe we are spending a whole day discussing something that deserves some time, but not a whole day. I was trying to think through how we take a thread like this and allow it to impact us in our “real” world. I was just thinking out loud…but not very clearly.
Sarah wrote (5:23): “When Michael posts threads, I think he ultimately wants us to do more than just lob thoughts at each other. He wants us to engage in a way that maybe impacts how we think and act outside the blog.”
Sarah, the “Headline” yesterday was “Isa” Big Mistake?
Yesterday, Michael brought to our attention the “word” ISA. Michael asked us a question about a word (its meaning). Michael teaches us to “pay attention” to words and God’s Word, carefully. Regardless of who the speaker or teacher is (which means a great deal to me). Focus is on God and His Word. Keeping it pure, understanding it correctly, etc. Michael’s focus or intent (IMHO) was never to discredit any person or prayer (or prayer, as Daniel’s post suggested). The focus was on a word and if it was used correctly.
So, yesterday was educational in the sense that we all learned what the word “Isa” truly means (and what it does not mean); and how each of us define the word: “Isa”. I really don’t see this thread as “lobbing thoughts” at one another. We searched scripture and history and cultural differences.
http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/movie_sounds/sounds_files_20081223_3107713/airplane/surely_a.wav
Sorry, Solus. It’s just what struck me this morning, and as I said I didn’t express my thinking very well. Should never type before finishing that cup of coffee.
Sarah,
Thank you for explaining it to me. I learned a lot yesterday.
Sarah, you asked a couple of good questions: “When Michael is working and can’t be on as much, how do we take a thread like this and think about it in a way that helps us live out our faith in our real world?”
I will probably get in trouble for this… but, IMHO placing photos of people bring on personal attacks. The comments slowly becomes directed at the person featured rather than the subject being discussed. Yesterday, and many other days, would be better (IMHO) if the subject was discussed and not so much the person. But, it’s not my blog. The only time my heart gets really heavy here is when I feel like another person (the one being featured in the photo) is being hurt in some way. Other than that, I love it here. Thanks Sarah.
I love the PP…you guys always make me think. Sarah, (my daughter’s name is Sarah) if your comments were to others to give me a chance to express my thoughts, thanks, but I feel people interacted with me…If I am talking past people, then thanks again for you gentle reminder and coaxing.
Bottom line is I have always felt the PP folks have been patient with me and given room for this blow hard to bloviate (thanks Bill for the word).
Now, I on the other hand can learn to be a bit more compassionate…but I will never learn to type better or hit the spell checker before the send button
There’s a spell-checker available in wordpress?
I was really blessed and encouraged by this article about how race
relations are improving and how our kids are and will benefit from it.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/22/martin.sasha.smile/index.html
For those of you who say Isa is not a valid expression, your logic runs something like this:
Jewish beliefs about Yeshua - false
Hebrew Christian beliefs about Yeshua - true
Therefore, Yeshua is a legitimate name for Jesus
Some Catholic beliefs about Jesus - false
)
Evangelical beliefs about Jesus - true
Therefore, Jesus is a legitimate name for Jesus (this one was kind of obvious
Muslim beliefs about Isa - false
Arab Christian beliefs about Isa - true
Therefore, Isa is NOT a legitimate name for Jesus?
Talking past everyone?
Prayer is suppose to do that…
but hey…it was a vigorous day with lots of discussion and Dread was one of the guilty ‘talking past’ parties…
Anyway…tomorrow …already IS another day.
Scarlet O’Dread
Sarah…..re: cracking you up…..you made my day. I love to make people laugh. Went too far on Pete’s blog and got myself a very long time out……anyone feel like going to bat on my behalf?
SIGH! I think his waterloo was of me threatening to rip out some guy’s non-cranial hair…..was a joke, I was on a manic hight. I went too far, now I’m banned so I can’t apologize…..so what do I do? I like Pete…..don’t like that I pissed him off… :o(
anyhoooo, guess I gotta watch myself….very, very tough.