"The Body of Christ in all her glory" is available from Amazon and we have a link set up in the left hand column.
"This book details how God used a woman's 2 1/2 year struggle with lung cancer to teach our church what the body of Christ is really meant to be and how it should function. Our experience of learning to love this family through our actions brought revival to our church. This story also includes the lessons of faith that the Lord was teaching me at that time, preparing me to pastor. Finally, it includes my thoughts and insights on what the Bible says about what the body of Christ is and how it is supposed to function."
The reviews here and on Amazon are all five star so get a copy for yourself and lets support our brother in his ministry.
If you already have it and would like to discuss it, here's the place.
Michael,
You are very kind. Thank you.
“Betty had a persistent cough that just wouldn’t go away. I led the home fellowship in prayer for Betty to be healed from her cough on a couple of different evenings.”
“… she had a rare form of lung cancer…”
This is very familiar to me, this is what happened to my father… the cough, the cancer and death.
Jim, in chapter 2., we realize the importance of home fellowship and how it can change a person’s life. Enhance life. Prayer life.
Proverbs 3:5-6 “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.”
Jim writes: “As heart strings were being pulled over this couple, everyone in the fellowship began to consider what they could do to help this family through such a time as this. Little did we all realize how the Lord was beginning to orchestrate His purposes by allowing these fiery trials to happen in the lives of this family and church body.”
He also wrote, “I have met a complete stranger who is a brother or a sister in Christ and because of the bond that we share in Christ, in just a short amount of time I have found that we have become close friends, sometimes even closer than my biological family.”
Ecclesiastes 4:12 Solomon wrote on the value of friendships in helping us as God’s people to fight our common enemy: “And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.”
Jim, sharing this verse with us opens my eyes more to what God is teaching us about His Body of Christ being “One”. That is simply beautiful.
Michael,
Thank you for this post! I’ll try to keep attentive to this feed throughout the day and after church tomorrow.
Jim,
Been looking forward to your book. I’ll be sure to get a copy. Blessings to you!
Thanks Kevin. Amazon.com has the best prices, and you have to order it online.
Solus Christus,
Ah, I see you have been posting already…
This book has been very encouraging to be,
My Mom died of cancer 4 years back, with an entirely different response from the church…
This book gives me hope …
That there are churches who do function as a caring, loving, involved family, and while its not only a realistic possibility, Jims book shows the fruit of what happens when the body does.
Sister Christian,
Hi, yes, I remember you mentioning that sad news about your dear mama, and the path your church decided upon.
This book does give a person hope and shows us how we can be towards others.
I have a feeling, Sis, we are getting into chapters that may be difficult for both of us.
Jim,
Yesterday, I noticed your book is being sold at Target too. Anyway, I saw it online/Target. FYI.
Sister Christian,
On pg. 22 regarding the church: “Make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose, ” Phil 2:2
Jim wrote: “The bonds of friendship in Christ are so precious that we must not allow our ourselves to break them because of our own selfishness and self-centeredness. We Christians must always strive as much as is possible to be of one mind and purpose in Christ.”
Solus,
The book is being sold at all of the online bookstores in this country, and many also located all over the world.
SC,
UGM.
Jim,
I am very surprised that you would spend so much time (and even notice this much) on Betty’s self-esteem and self-image. Not only notice, be care and evaluate/learn from her experience.
Okay, this is where I cried… “Her value she was realizing was not what “people” thought of her but what her life meant to God, and she knew that God looks on a person’s heart and it is the heart that either pleases or displeases Him. She knew as a child of God how greatly God loved her because He had sent Jesus to die on the cross for her plus He had saved her life right out of the pit of sin she once had lived in.”
JimB,
I’m looking forward to reading your book…thank you for writing it.
SC and Solus,
Have you read chapter 5 yet?
Solus,
A lot of this type of information about how Betty came to deal with the fact of her cancer came through conversations with my wife and other women close to Betty. Before beginning to write this book last year, I didn’t realize the real struggle that Betty had gone through with these kinds of things, and this was because she talked and cried a lot with the other women in our fellowship, but not so much with the men.
When I wrote these things about Betty, I wanted to give information and minister to others who would be in a similar situation because I knew that they would be asking those same questions, especially women.
Reading page 28 about witnessing to others… and being His mouthpiece and share the great and incredible news.
I mean this in the kindest way to the pastors here… but it’s hard to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with people out in this world, out of the blue. Pastors, please think about something for me… if you didn’t preach on Sunday’s sermons and didn’t have contact with anyone in your church for the whole week… no counseling, would you be sharing God’s Word a lot? Take last week… did you share the Gospel with anyone (excluding church people)?
I’m curious. It’s difficult for me.
Last night, my younger, favorite brother called me and we talked for an hour. We began talking about the economy… quickly turning to the book of Revelation. Babylon Dread, our Rev. Study came in so handy!
Anyway, I shared so much with my brother. He wanted to hear/know more. God spoke to my heart and I poured out my soul to him…. God’s Word. It was awesome.
Jim,
I am starting Chapter 4 now. The other night, I said Chapter 5, but it was 4 … and it was midnight 12…ha. My eyes were tired.
Jim,
Please tell me something important… in detail, please.
How did it feel when you received your first published book in the mail? Like the very first one. Did the publishing company send you a carton filled with books? How did you feel when you saw your first book and held it in your hands?
It must be a wonderful feeling…
Solus,
Betty was a very unique Christian, and to imagine that she did these things as a brand new Christian makes her story even more amazing. I have never known anyone who because more focused in such a situation in sharing the gospel as Betty, and she did this daily witnessing for hours with an oxygen tube up her nose and breathing heavy because she couldn’t get enough air.
Solus,
They initially sent me three of the books for my approval. I wanted them to change some things on the cover, and a second editor had reviewed the book after I had sent it to publishing and she found like 20 typos that needed to be fixed. So, I was kind of relieved seeing the book, but then I also realized I had to immediately get to work detailing the changes I wanted completed.
Whenever you publish a book you spend so much time and often agonize over it, plus you have a burning desire to see it get out to people, so waiting for that first book is like being a kid and counting the days, hours, and minutes until Christmas. At least that is the way it was for me.
Jim,
I’m glad your wife and Betty’s friends shared those things with you, and that you had the wisdom to include Betty’s sufferings with self-image and self-esteem in your book, because those are things that a woman would experience.
Actually, the guys suffer from it too, Jim. It bothered my dad when he lost his hair. He had beautifully, thick wavy hair. He was so handsome and strong. It was hard on him to see himself change… lose his hair, lose weight, appear older, skin changes too. It’s very sad and difficult.
Jim,
Thanks for telling me. Yes, I would imagine it to be like a kid at Christmas too. I’m happy for you, your wife and your church family.
The title of chapter 3 is “Accepting Who You Are in Christ” …
which must mean, that for most … this is difficult?
Jim, as a pastor (and with your experience, or any other pastor), IYHO do most people accept who they are in Christ?
Jim wrote: “She knew she was loved and accepted by Christ and her life was now not about her desires or plans or achievements, it was about Christ living through her and accomplishing on a daily basis the things He wanted to do through her.”
Jim asks us:
“But, I would ask you the reader if you have come to this same place in your life yet?”
“What forms your identity and defines who you are?”
“You may consider yourself a Christian and even attend a church but is your identity defined by that which Christ has done and is doing in your life?”
“Is your life today and each day summed up in Christ living though you?”
Honestly, I could spend a lot of time on these questions. I am anxious to hear Sister Christian’s comments, maybe even her answers if she desires to share them with us.
Solus,
>>IYHO do most people accept who they are in Christ?
I would say that most Christians today are not very biblically literate or mature spiritually and so they need to be taught to come to understand who they are in Christ. We tend to get our understanding of our lives and our value from the world and our upbringing, however growing in the grace of God involves for most unlearning virtually everything that they know about what life involves. This is a big process and takes years to occur.
Jim,
That’s an honest answer, I agree. Also, agree that it takes years to occur.
I need to break this down…
For me, to know that you are loved and accepted by Christ is huge in itself. To know and accept Him means you have received God’s gift.
A time comes in one’s life that personal desires, plans or achievements are no longer priorities, there is no hunger for it any more, no fulfillment. Something has changed in the heart, mind and soul.
A hunger for Christ and His Word escalates above personal desires, a stronger desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord. A temporary confusion can take place, because gears are shifting into a new direction—focused upon Him.
I am not sure how to answer the questions below.
“What forms your identity and defines who you are?”
“You may consider yourself a Christian and even attend a church but is your identity defined by that which Christ has done and is doing in your life?”
“Is your life today and each day summed up in Christ living though you?”
Okay, Thats what I get for being late again!
You are having a great discussion on this, and
Solus Christus,
You are bringing up such good points and asking terrific questions!
“Jim wrote: “The bonds of friendship in Christ are so precious that we must not allow our ourselves to break them because of our own selfishness and self-centeredness. We Christians must always strive as much as is possible to be of one mind and purpose in Christ.”
AMEN! Oh how we should strongly consider those words,
and make every effort to work through conflict,
to love one another….
to encourage one another,
we can be diverse and disagree at times, yet still be kind, strengthen and keep the bonds of friendship
Havent read chapter 5. Only through to Ch 4
“What forms your identity and defines who you are?”
“A time comes in one’s life that personal desires, plans or achievements are no longer priorities, there is no hunger for it any more, no fulfillment. Something has changed in the heart, mind and soul.
A hunger for Christ and His Word escalates above personal desires, a stronger desire to live a life pleasing to the Lord. A temporary confusion can take place, because gears are shifting into a new direction—focused upon Him.”
Solus, You have stated EXACTLY what I wrestled with for years, about 7-10 years ago…
a temporary confusion does set in as gears are shifting into a new direction- being focused upon Christ, His kingdom.
“What forms your identity and defines who you are?”
so when this question is asked,
I can recall we were very heavily involved with CC,
missions, the CC magazine, CCBCs etc.
One day while cleaning the house.
(and this doesnt happen very much) I sensed God say clearly to me:
“Where is your identity? Is it in CC or in Christ?”
and
‘If I called you to go anywhere in the world, would you go alone?’
well, without hesitation, I said, its in Christ of course!
then slowly, ever so slowly, all things CC went by the wayside for various reasons.
I eventually left CC and went to a small SBC church with a few saints,
and I realized after all had been stripped away,
How much my identity HAD been in CC moreso than in Christ.
This isnt to take a shot at all things CC,
But to say:
It may be very easy to find oneself identified by the church and the organization, they attend, their loyalty being so much to the organization.
and to almost lose their main identity, which is in Christ.
Hi Sister…!
Oh Hi Solus Christus,
There you are!
Sister,
Your 8:50… yes, I agree. Sometimes, we have to “be still” for a period of time and work through it in our own heart.
Yes, i would agree. If we would only have people,
Pastors like Jim, and others to help the body in this area.
Sister wrote, “Solus, You have stated EXACTLY what I wrestled with for years, about 7-10 years ago… ”
Okay, Sis, then what happened?
Sister (9:05),
What you describe, leaving your church and “going it alone” so to speak (France)… you and your hubby… aren’t we supposed to work as a Body? I’m not picking at you, because I tend to do the very same things. Honestly.
And, I don’t really mean totally, alone. Alone with Christ.
Sister wrote, “It may be very easy to find oneself identified by the church and the organization, they attend, their loyalty being so much to the organization.
and to almost lose their main identity, which is in Christ.”
Sister, I have always found it easier to be with Christ alone.
Well, it started about 7-10 years ago. when i went to Ukraine and Russia
as I stepped out on a mission trip to India,
got trained in leading mission trips,
began to take out teams to Europe, Australia, Nepal,
God began to open my eyes to HIS WORLD,
and to His Children.
and I got the sense that so many people were content playing church,
Not that church is bad in and of itself, but its what were are doing
and we are not entering into the fullness of Christ.
For example, the Wesley brothers played “church’ if you will for years. Until they were broken, physically, intellectually and spiritually, they got to the pinnacle of what they thought they were…then God broke them , and then they were filled with His Spirit, and began to live life abundant, as Christ filled their life with rivers of living water, flowing…
that began the “great awakening” of revival.
Sis,
Do you mean that people get so busy for Christ that they forget Him?
Guys, I have to hit the hay. Its late here and 5am comes early. Thank you for all of your thoughts today, and for reading and reviewing my book here. I’ll check out what you write in the morning. God bless –Jim
“What you describe, leaving your church and “going it alone” so to speak (France)… you and your hubby… aren’t we supposed to work as a Body? I’m not picking at you, because I tend to do the very same things. Honestly.
And, I don’t really mean totally, alone. Alone with Christ.”
No, I know your not picking at me, Im glad you asked,
because the notion struck me as odd, going alone,
we were always taught to go having a “care team”, to be “supported by a church” I dont discount that way.
But God has led us on another path,
we know of others who have forged new ground, where they went “alone”
Gladys Aylward is one I can think of off the top of my head.
and I have thought Chuck Smith… Jim and other pastors feel free to correct me, But I think he went out alone, God called him to something new.
Its not something we planned to do.
For I always thought we would be working with CC as it had been such a part of our lives for 20 years
Playing church: Being at church, doing church socials, Bible studies, etc., but they were not feeding the poor, clothing the naked, caring for those suffering or living on the street, loving a neighbor, sharing God’s Word themselves, etc.?
Maybe, more importantly, they were not doing these things themselves… directly.
I have found that a person really doesn’t get as much out of it if they write a check. To me, loving thy neighbor teachings is the actual act (physical). Not that funds are not needed too, they are, but something huge is lost when a person in not physically and emotionally involved.
Like you mentioned, you went out into the world and did these things…
Hey goodnight JimB, and to your beautiful bride too!
Thanks for making this available to us and to the body!
JimB,
Goodnight. Please tell your wife hello for us. We appreciate and respect her love to Betty and making this book available. Blessings
Sister (9:41),
Yes, I understand completely. God has called me out alone too. Like you said, it was never planned in your wildest dreams. Actually, it seemed impossible at the time and a little scary. But, that’s the beauty of it, God brings everything together as far as your needs to make it work. And, He does His works inside you to give you the strength and courage, faith.
You made a great point, Sister Christian, Jim was called out alone. I’m sure a lot of pastors and people in ministry. Called out by God to follow Him. Followers of Christ… and it’s not always easy, but so very rewarding.
Solus, your 9:42
perhaps the danger is when the church acts as any other social club,
especially when they cater to preferential treatment to certain classes of people, etc, and they simply serve the “institution” or the machine, and forget to care for the orphans and widows,the poor.
It has to be done in a healthy way. One cannot demand that these things happen, or pressure epople to do these things, it does have to be an inner working and prompting of Gods spirit.
those who are newly saved, often need traige, and need to be helped to understand their identity in Christ, before they can go out and minister to others in a consistent way.
Thats what I love so much about Jim Bs book and the story that is told,
because its the body being filled with Gods spirit ministering to one another in love. Not by compulsion.
Another healthy aspect of the book is that serving Christ doesnt necessarily maen one has to go to the ends of the earth.
we are called to serve and love in our communities,
yet, we are not to neglect the world either.
Perhaps thats what God means when he says we are to walk circumspectly,
Sister Christian,
You wrote, “perhaps the danger is when the church acts as any other social club,
especially when they cater to preferential treatment to certain classes of people, etc, and they simply serve the “institution” or the machine, and forget to care for the orphans and widows,the poor.”
Yes, when kingdom building becomes more important than the people. And, it’s not only true in the church but within our own lives. When we care more about stuff, more stuff than people or God and sharing His Word.
Yes, it does have to be done from the heart. And, only God can change the heart.
You wrote, “Thats what I love so much about Jim Bs book and the story that is told, because its the body being filled with Gods spirit ministering to one another in love. Not by compulsion.”
I haven’t read the whole book yet, but it sounds like … like that campfire spark, but it’s people. A light in people that sets off another person… and they want to love one another.
Solus,
Just getting into chapter 5 myself. Time for me to sign out,
How bout if we discuss it tomorrow, btwn 7-8… Ill try not to be late!
Okay, goodnight, Sister.
Sister,
I will try to meet in the morning, but it may be a very busy day for us. If morning does not work, possibly tomorrow night. Have a wonderful day with our Lord.
Solus, yes the evening 7-8 would be better for me.
NightowllivingwithfiveearlybirdsSis
Sounds like a good book
Sis C.
I can really relate to what you are talking about when you discuss realizing that your life in Christ was lacking and how it was really life in church.
After we arrived in the Philipines and the newness of every thing wore off ,we found ourselves going through a dark and heavy tunnel of depression.
We realized that our Christian life had in reality been a life of church busyness and when all of that was stripped away,going on the mission field, we were relatively empty. For 10 years our lives had been filled with work, ministry and church activities. (worship leading, teaching, board meetings, Sunday School, retreats, etc). When we hit the Philippines,that was all gone and it was just me and hubby and our 3 kids….24/7.
As we struggled with issues in relating to one another, we discovered that the REAL problem was that we had left our first love…. our walk with Jesus had become so shallow. Without knowing it, we had replaced loving and being loved by Jesus and instead were living lives filled with Christian busyness and activity. Now I am not saying church activities and ministries are wrong. I believe every Christian should be an active member/part of a church fellowship..but we need to keep our first love.
Hubby and I had been so busy DOING, that we had spent very little time LOVING & BEING in Christ.
We had been so busy DOING ministry instead of seeking Him in His word, listening to Him in prayer, BEING a worshipper. Just loving Jesus.
There is a BIG difference in attending a worship service and loving, walking with and truly worshipping Jesus.
It was one of the most painful and difficult times in my life but I am so thankful that the Lord had me go through it and opened my eyes and my heart to know and experience anew, a living and growing relationship with Jesus. Now I walk with Him into my church life and activities and I am not afraid to say “No” I can’t do that…. I am not being called to this or that activity or outreach.
I read recently a quote that said that sometimes we Christians get so caught up with being in the word that we forget the GOD of the word.
Jesus first. In Him we live and move and have our being. Without Him I can do nothing.
I am looking forward to reading you book JimB.
What a lovely post, Nonnie.
We enjoyed this day so much. God gave us wonderful blessings today.
Hopefully, more will come to join us in our conversation (everyone is welcome).
Jim/Sis, I am starting chapter 8.
“What forms your identity and defines who you are?”
“You may consider yourself a Christian and even attend a church but is your identity defined by that which Christ has done and is doing in your life?”
“Is your life today and each day summed up in Christ living though you?”
Jim, how would you answer these questions?
hi Solus Christus,
I just logged on a few minutes ago.
Reading Nonnies post above about church activity in abundance,
and having left their first love.
Its like a wonderful husband who is leaving on a buisiness trip,
and he is so busy doing all thats on the honey do list,
and the wife gets a little pensive and melancholy
the husabnd is wondering why shes not happy, because he is doing so much for her, busy with all the little things that needed to be done around the house before he goes away.
he looks at her and asks why the downcast of heart and she says,
“Im just wondering if you are going to spend anytime with me before you go… yes, these things need to be done, but to spend a little time with you, thats what I desire the most”
Hi Sister Christian,
I am familiar with that story. My husband used to travel a lot too.
Now we know how God feels.
Nonnie,
You know what? As we are sorting through our closets and boxes and momentos and such, ( You are familiar with what it takes to prepare to move overseas! whee… more work than we imagine)
I found a card you had sent me over 11 years ago encouraging me on the birth of our little girl, who’s not so little anymore…
It was soooo very sweet to find.
Im sure that though you were busy at church,
So much of Gods light still shown through you
and ministered greatly to others,
I know you and Mr. Nonnie were a great blessing to our family in the busyness of it all.
Its about our identity in Christ,
Our love relationship with Him,
That is to supercede all other tasks.
and as our love relationship with Him is right,
we can in confidence say, no to certain activities.
Jesus had a million directions He could go,
but He always walked in an ““Otium Sanctum” a Holy Leisure
he was never troubled and rushed about by over activity.
Though He had much to do, He was guided by the Will of His Father
and it would seem that as we draw close to our Lord,
we would find comfort and confidence to also walk and do The will of Him who sends us.
Sometimes, the answers to the three questions Jim asked… sometimes, perhaps, we “think” too much about those things, make it more difficult than it really is. (?)
Life involves tedious tasks… constant, repetitive and boring tasks at times.
We leave our parents, find a job, benefits, strive to make more money because a person has to… to make ends meet. We begin a family, medical expenses, food, clothing, entertainment… and buy a house, furnish it… the yard, plants, it is never ending. We all know what happens when you fail to pay the car payment or mortgage, or a credit card. Life is not a bed of roses.
Some people in this world work hard and others expect someone else to pay their bills for them.
Then, there is education expenses, college, sports… it’s endless.
I tend to believe that small, daily acts of love are what keep this world balanced… and going. Christ lives in us through these small acts of love (IMHO).
In Chapter 4: Everything Jim wrote about regarding Betty’s cancer, her struggles, the people, the kindness shown to her and her family, Jim’s behavior… the community… EVERYTHING Jim described is the way I was raised and he could have inserted all the people in my life as a child/teen…
To me… this is love. This is Christ. People like Jim describes don’t “think” much about those questions, they act upon what is in their heart.
“To me… this is love. This is Christ. People like Jim describes don’t “think” much about those questions, they act upon what is in their heart.”
Solus,
What a blessing that you grew up in such a church!
that is a reflection of Gods love, being filled with Gods love
They cant help but to do whats in their heart.
And, we are fooling ourselves if we think those very same people don’t get stress out, upset about life, worry about a bill being paid or how they are going to provide for their families during difficult times. These very same people scream at their kids sometimes, get angry… and sin.
With that said, the home fellowship that Jim speaks about is stirring in my soul. I can certainly understand how and why such a fellowship (away from church, but including church) would have made such a huge difference in Betty’s life, and the lives of those around her.
Sister,
It was my church, but maybe even more… my immediate family (especially my mom and grandparents and aunts and uncles and close friends). Actually, our community was very much like Jim describes (and still are today).
But, Sister, they were (are) not perfect (including me) … and I have never known a soul who lived every moment for Christ.
Solus,
Chapter 5 was quite short
i really like the last paragraph:
Brendas parents never built a financial empire, in fact never even owned their own home ( most of us dont anyways, The banks do
So it seems maybe they were the wiser for it!)
These things were not important to them, they lived to serve the Lord, assist their children and serve others and this was their treasure in life.
When I think of that passage,
I think of Jesus words,
lay not for yourselves treasure on earth
But in heaven
where you treasure is, There your heart will be
where our treasure is, our hearts will follow.
What we value, our desires our efforts will seek out.
If we see the value of God, of loving God, of loving others,
in seeking to please Him, our hearts will follow.
dont you think thats true Solus?
Sister!!!! Can you believe that paragraph? It fits you perfectly right now in your walk with Christ. Almost scary…
Does God want you to wait?
I will place those questions on the back burner.
pg 33: “I brought back every single one of my bad experiences of my life and what I found each time was God’s promise for forgiveness for our sins: “He had cast my sins as far as from the east is from the west.”
Sweet.
Solus,
why do we keep getting hung up on the “perfect”
John says we will sin,
but we are to confess our sins.
But what we are not to do is to practice sin
Live a lifestyle of sin,
But to follow after righteousness,
We are saved by Grace,
But Christ in us, gives us a new direction
we are to encourage one another to do good,
we are to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel
Loving God, Loving our neighbors,
its not burdensome, is it Solus
to Love our neighbors, and to love God
We dont hate them and wish them ill
You know, my Grandparents never told me they loved me
My family( on my Dads side) were very loud people
they were very direct, bold and blunt in their conversation
they didnt have fluffy, touchy feely, politically correct speech with professional and graceful flair…
But you know something,
I knew they loved me, I knew they loved each other
they wouldnt let a soul go hungry
they would give the coat off their back to one who didnt have
they didnt demonstrate their love in word
they demonstrated their love in deed.
Did they cuss, smoke, swear? at times yes. Were they overweight? Often times
Yes… But they loved, They loved God and they loved others.
and Gods word tells us love covers a multitude of sins doesnt it?
Solus,
Does God want me to wait? wait for…?
Sister,
pg 59 “We knew we were in one of those cycles where God just wants you to wait…”
Wait to sell your house and move to France. I thought that’s what you meant, possibly.
“Betty was now coming to grips with the fact that she would most likely have to be ready very soon to face that judgment day with Jesus Christ and she wanted to make sure that when she left this life that she would have as few regrets as possible when she had to stand before Him for His evaluation of her life” pg 33
Do you find that to be a very positive way to look at how we conduct our lives? Living it in such a way that we will have as few regrets as possible on that day we have to stand before the Lord?
Solus Christus,
Oh, ha… thats why I didnt understand,
Im not to page 59 yet, Im only up to 52…
Im going to have to catch up tonight!
But in reading that paragraph,
yes we are in a slightly similar situation,
the housing market has fallen,
but its different for us in that
we have no equity in this house…
we will have to carry the loss.
What ever God determines that to be,
God has provided our Visas,
God has provided the finances so that our air tickets are paid in full.
We are trusting God has spoken to us to sell
and That being the case He will provide a buyer
( we still appreciate prayer… for God tells us to pray!)
Solus and SC,
Sorry I am late to the discussion tonight. I got a phone call from an old friend and finally got off.
I wanted to mention something about chapter five, the chapter that talks about my wife’s family and upbringing. One of the reasons that chapter was written was the fact that in the middle of my writing of the book that my wife’s mother passed away. I really loved her and my wife’s family, even as much or more than my own. I was really brought to consider them and how they had affected not only my wife’s life but the lives of the children, and even my own life and the lives of my children. Incredible people, incredible life’s lived for God. I actually wanted to write more about them but ended up editing out some because I didn’t feel I could make them so much of a focus.
Actually, much of the creative process for me involved hard choices of what to include and what not to include about the story. I for instance had written a whole bunch of stories about my grandfather and grandmother initially that I finally had to edit out because it cluttered the flow and the points being made in the study.
Solus, are you still online?
Im thinking that this time might be too late for Jim,
we might have to meet earlier in the day for discussion!
JimB,
good evening and…
Oh, well, while i was typing there you are!!
Solus,
>>pg 33: “I brought back every single one of my bad experiences of my life and what I found each time was God’s promise for forgiveness for our sins: “He had cast my sins as far as from the east is from the west.”
There is a funny story associated with this. Last March, my wife and I were traveling between St. Louis and Georgia following my son’s baseball team on the spring break baseball tour. I had written the book but was in the process of editing it, and I was trying to learn of any stories about Betty that I could. My wife is kind of funny because she is not like a lot of women in that she doesn’t talk as much with me as most women do with their husbands. Its been said that a woman needs to say 10,000 words a day and that for a man its only about 300. But, she doesn’t even come close to that unless she is chatting with other women. With me sometimes I have to coax her to talk freely. Its not a bad thing its just who she is.
Anyway, during this whole trip I kept prodding her to try and remember stories about Betty that I might consider for my book, or perhaps just clear up timeframes for things happening, etc. Well, we were in this restaurant somewhere in Missouri eating a meal and discussing Betty, and all of a sudden she says to me, “Well, its just like that dream that Betty had.” I said, “What dream?” Then she said, “Oh, you remember that dream don’t you?” I said, “No, tell me the dream.” Then, she proceeded to tell me about that dream.
I later got more information about the dream during that trip because I was texting and talking with Betty’s best friend during that time, the woman I call “Vanesa” in the book. Vanesa helped me so much with the book it is amazing. She read a few different versions of it and corrected times references, and she told me many of the stories in the book. She is such a good friend!
SC,
Good evening to you. What chapter are you currently reading?
Hi Jim,
I am catching up reading this thread, I was doing homework w/family.
So blessed today reading three more chapters, but the questions worried me a little…
If I delay in answering it’s because of mommy duties…
Im in Chapter six, where Betty is healed, in remission and Don building the beauty shop in the basement, expressing His love for her: for her to be able to work at home, as well as him buying the Bicycle parts and assembling them together… thats outstanding!
Solus,
Is tomorrow a better day for you? we can meet earlier,
I was thinking of retiring early tonight myself
Solus,
>>“What forms your identity and defines who you are?”
>>“You may consider yourself a Christian and even attend a church but is your identity defined by that which Christ has done and is doing in your life?”
>>“Is your life today and each day summed up in Christ living though you?”
>>Jim, how would you answer these questions?
In asking these questions, I was trying to get the reader to really think about his/her own life in relation to what formed the basis of their self image/worth. I wanted the reader to consider whether their life’s worth was based upon what people in this world value: what you own, your status and station in life, your family pedigree, nationality, etc. Betty as a new Christian was forced to look at herself in regard to these things because her whole physical image was going to radically changed due to her battle with cancer, and she was a woman who had always been put together well and in fact her career was based in some degree upon her physical looks.
For myself, my whole self worth/image is based upon who God sees me to be. In spite of my sinfulness and unworthiness in every sense of the word, the Lord chooses to call me His son and to love me unconditionally. He considers me the apple of His eye, and it is my relationship with Him that means all to me.
Sister, yes, in the morning. I will be in/out… tonight, darn homework!
Jim,
Your wife’s upbringing is so very important because these are the things we pass down to generation-to-generation. Also, the stories you mentioned, perhaps another book for those precious stories.
I loved the dream. Especially, about the sins no longer being remembered. Gosh, Jim/Sister, I hope it’s really like that in Heaven.
Jim, I’m glad you wrote this because this is where I am right now:
“For myself, my whole self worth/image is based upon who God sees me to be. In spite of my sinfulness and unworthiness in every sense of the word, the Lord chooses to call me His son and to love me unconditionally. He considers me the apple of His eye, and it is my relationship with Him that means all to me.”
Originally, I thought of “perfection” … which is impossible for me.
Solus Christus,
Jim B,
I look forward to tomorrow then
Jim/Sis,
My 9:44 is wrong. I’m not there yet. I am trying to get there (as Jim describes). I am on the verge of ‘maybe I am okay’ in God’s eyes. That has been my prayer for a long time.
Sister (8:38),
A beautiful post. It’s true, so often our conversations flow in “perfectionism”. I agree with your comments about sin and loving thy neighbors.
Sister… you wrote, “they didnt demonstrate their love in word
they demonstrated their love in deed.
Did they cuss, smoke, swear? at times yes. Were they overweight? Often times
Yes… But they loved, They loved God and they loved others.
and Gods word tells us love covers a multitude of sins doesnt it?”
That’s beautiful. Love does cover a multitude of sins. And, that is what I was trying to say about my family, friends and community. They were not perfect, but they loved others and cared for others, like your grandparents. But many of these very same people… cussed, drank and carried on … but still, they sure knew how to love one another.
Jim makes some really good points later in the book about this, that I will get to later.
Sister, you make some excellent observations in your comment.
My grandparents (especially my grandmas) were very affectionate and always told me they loved me. Strong, faithful women. But they did not come into my life until later (age 7 up). Much damage had already been done, but thank God I had them in my life. I felt safe and loved with them.
Jim wrote, “In asking these questions, I was trying to get the reader to really think about his/her own life in relation to what formed the basis of their self image/worth.”
Jim, you ask… ‘what formed the basis of their self image/worth’
Jim, for some, it is what they were told when they were very young, over a period of years (and how they were treated).
I am not sure it is possible to re-shape and re-mold an “image”.
I do believe it is possible for God to heal and bring change to your heart to show you His promises, how everything He created is good (and in His image) and how precious we all are to Him and how much He loves us. These things give me some peace and hope.
Betty’s story about her growing faith, her sons, sharing God’s Word with all she knew and came in contact with is beautiful. I relate to remission of cancer, as my father went through all that (along with the treatments).
The home fellowship and church fellowship is interesting and inspires me to start a home fellowship group. Jim, all this time, I thought you were the pastor. You must have been a teacher to this home fellowship (correct?). It’s beautiful the way everyone in the church and community pulled together to help one another… and how it continued even later. How this “Body of Christ” spread and were sensitive to the needs of others. Not all churches see this today, Jim wrote, “Soon it became just the routine in the church that if anyone simply saw a need in the body they didn’t ignore it or wait hoping someone else more qualified or with more free time or resources would meet it, they simply met the need themselves. People were volunteering to help each other out in various ways without even being asked.”
This is what my mother taught me:
Jim wrote, “Something else that was happening at this time was that as everyone was just content to serve in any capacity that they could, no one cared if their efforts were noticed or that they received any kind of credit or glory for what they did.”
This is the most beautiful part about Crescent H. F. “Those in the body of Christ at CHF were finding the true joy, happiness, and contentment that occurs in one’s life when self is dethroned, and they learned the joy of serving others through the power of the Holy Spirit. They were thinking of how they could bless others instead of dwelling upon their own desires and needs.”
One of my favorite parts of the book so far is pg 52 & 53, when Jim tells about Betty’s sons, Jeff and his wife, Rachel; and Sean who all came to know the Lord. Even with all their sins and what some might call “colorful lifestyles” focus was on loving them, sharing God’s Word with them, encouragement, never forgetting them, praying for them, etc.
When I read all these things about Betty’s sons, I thought: The sin doesn’t really matter. What is important is we do not give up on one another and love and wait for non-believers to receive Him or those who are lost, to return to their first love. The focus is placed on restoration with Him.
Once these boys returned (or came to know Christ Jesus) it reminded me of Betty’s dream, all that truly mattered is that they were reunited with God, the sins were washed away a long, long time ago.
Wow, I have got to get this book. Thank you Solus and Sister C. and Jim for this wonderful and edifying discussion. I am going to order it from Amazon today so it will be waiting for me when I get to the states next week.
Sis. C. that card must have been sent to you when I was visiting stateside one summer. I remember we ran into each other at CCBC. I remember our time together. How fun that we will soon be “neighbours” again. Just a Eurostar train ride away!
Praying for your house situation.
Never forget that with our God NOTHING is impossible and His plans and timing is perfect for you and yours. Abide in His love daily and you will be delighted to behold how He works everything to good and for His purposes and His glory.
1 Sam. 7:12 …. Hitherto hath the LORD helped us.
He is not going to fail you now.
I’ve been out all weekend entertaining family who came in for a weekend visit, so I’ll catch up on the this thread later today…
Just wanted to say I’m looking forward to reading your book, JimB.
SC,
Yes, at our church I was an elder, home fellowship leader and teacher, and I played in the worship team during all of the events of my book.
Solus,
The wonderful thing about knowing Christ is that His love for us is not dependent upon our performance. He doesn’t love or value us one bit less when we don’t match up to His standard of righteousness. He is like most of us with our kids, we may be perturbed at them at times, maybe even a little angry, but we never love them less because of things that the do or do not do. God has a purpose for you reading my book it sounds like!
Wow, what an amazing thread. I have been blessed greatly by JimB’s book, but not nearly as much as I have from knowing JimB and “Brenda” for many years!
Ordered my copy…looking forward to reading it.
Good morning,
Glad to see the attention Jim’s book is getting. Its been a few weeks since I read the book but glad I did. I would offer a word of caution here. And its this. What Jim is describing was not a “goal” but an outcome. What the folks in the book experienced was a fruit, the result of if you will, discipleship and investment toward Christian maturity. Did it help everyone grow more? You bet. But these folks were already in a place where they could grow. Investment had been made. If we in our own churches seek to reproduce the same experience by setting the experience up as the goal, we will then be acting out of possibly a shame based maybe even work based platform. We will be disappointed and act as if we did something “wrong” because we didn’t have the same experience. And of course we will never have the same experience if that is our strategy. We seek to grow into the image of our Savior and obey. Experiences will come our way but the experience is not the goal. Christian maturity is the goal. I can assure you the untold story behind this book is Jim’s life long commitment both to himself, his family and to those he serves to exactly that, grow in Christ. While this is a great story, its is also the evidence, the outcome, of folks who are committed to becoming mature Christians.
On the road to maturity Jesus has all sorts of magnificent stories and experiences that confirm His presence in our lives, the lives of others and our church lives. I hope that as you read Jim’s book you have a renewed commitment to getting on that road for that road’s sake.
The book is a great testimony to what does and can happen when folks surrender and allow Jesus to be Lord.
Jim M.
As I skim several of the posts I will offer again my advice on putting first things first. You will never have a positive view of yourself, seeing yourself as God sees you, IF you make that your goal. Seeing yourself as God sees you, having a healthy self image or self esteem, is a fruit. Its a by product. Joy is another great way to understand the nature of the thing. If you set joy up as a goal, “I am going to be joyful….” you will never have joy. Joy is a by product, its an outcome, and can never be experienced IF you set it up as your goal or target. Actually the reverse will happen. The more you set joy up as a goal, the less joy you will have.
We as fallen human beings want the outcome, the experience, without traveling down the road to obtain that experience or outcome. If you set becoming like Christ, Christian maturity, up as your goal and do the work to accomplish that goal, as an outcome and often times to your amazement and surprise, one day you realize that “Wow, I’m seeing myself as God sees me. When did that happen?”
Hello Jim,
Who are your comments directed to? What did you read that you feel one needs to be cautious?
Sister Christian (8:48pm)
Yes, I find it a positive way to conduct our lives. To review, repent and ask God for forgiveness and to have few regrets as possible.
Sister Christian (8:28)
Sorry, I missed this last night when I got busy with overseeing homework.
Brenda’s parents sound like wonderful people with a true heart for our Lord. I have had the pleasure of knowing a few missionaries who work very hard all their lives, live with very little and are complete servants to our Lord. God bless them. These are the people I probably most respect in God’s Kingdom, along with people like brian (who serves others daily with very difficult needs). Notice, these people work very hard in difficult, painful and dangerous places going most of their lives with very little comforts.
Although, I do not believe there is anything wrong with owning your home and business (tent maker) and serving God and sharing with God’s kingdom. It’s usually these people who are financially supporting ministries, etc. It’s all good for the Kingdom of God and we are not to compare each other’s gifts. Those who followed Christ owned their homes and businesses and followed Him. The Bible tells us that several of the women followers provided finances to Jesus’ ministry.
Yes, Sis, I completely agree about the treasures and where our heart is, truly.
Regardless what we own and do with our lives, God knows our hearts.
Solus Christus,
It all goes back to knowing Christ, being in Love with and obedient to Him.
Living in simplicity, living humbly, graciously, giving, caring.
With whatever we have and all we do, living for the glory of God.
For some that means, like we are doing, selling our house, our belongings, (remember the other house i sold, the one with the raspberry bushes and roses that I loved? God told me to open my hands and let it go… and then later… with the proceeds from that He gave me the opportunity to buy the church, that Lord willing we will be able to restore and put into the hands a body of believers that gather there)
Those who live a quiet life, working and maintaining, living in their communities as a testimony and a witness unto Christ I doubt it matter if they own a home or rent, does it,
Whether we are abased or abound, we are to be content,
Godliness with contentment is great gain.
Jim Middleton and GRB Dave,
Welcome to PP!
Its great to have you join us, that you for the encouragement and the admonitions
“The book is a great testimony to what does and can happen when folks surrender and allow Jesus to be Lord.”
Amen!
Hi Ck and Mk,
The book is very encouraging to read… well worth it!
Nonnie,
I look forward to us being neighbors soon.
A couple more months… Hoping I might be able to get away and to come up and see you! That would be amazing! Is there a book aid near you?
Are they still in operation?
Your words of wisdom are greatly soothing for a slightly anxious soul!
GRB Dave,
You made me cry today when I read that. I love you bro!!!
Jim Middleton,
Hey, how are you doing brother? Thanks for posting.
Solus,
I don’t think Jim was speaking to any individual but only making general comments. I think what he was saying was that the reason why the people in our church reacted the way that they did was because they were healthy sheep who had been taught God’s word well and put Him as Lord over their lives.
This is definitely true. The spontaneous response of the people in our fellowship to the needs of this family and then towards each other was the fruit of the ministry that had gone on for a long time in that church. We weren’t preached at either telling us that we were supposed to do this or that in relation to meeting their needs. It was the response of love, the fruit of the word and love of God in the people’s lives.
To try to enforce this sort of response on a body of believers would not produce the kind of fruit that the Holy Spirit produced in the people’s lives.
Good point Jimbo!!!
I am blessed to have three people very close to me read this blog today, two of whom posted. My wife read the posts today and when I asked her why should didn’t post she said that having one blog addict in the family was enough…
Jim Middleton,
Your folks were very much like my wife’s parents, such caring, generous, and hospitable folks. I used to love going over to your parents house for a meal, it was always quite a treat for me as a college student!
That’s right Jim. I have seen too many churches chasing experiences others have instead of building their own foundation and allowing God to bless them accordingly. When folks are commenting that it would be great if their own churches did so and so or such and such it causes me to be concerned about what they are really describing. The lack of fruit, the lack of the evidence of love, is corrected by Biblical maturity not by chasing or desiring some experience. How many churches transplant programs that work in one church but fail miserably in another? Typically it has worked in one church because a foundation of Biblical maturity was in place FIRST.
Betty’s story is a great story on several levels. It is a great story all by itself. It is also a great story to demonstrate what the commitment to Christian growth and maturity your church practiced produced in the lives of its members.
If we want experiences in our own church lives like Betty’s story, the path is to renew our commitment to discipleship and maturity.
To me that is one of the great challenges of the book.
Jim
Nonnie, MK, Captain Kevin and Linnea,
You will enjoy the book. We look forward to hearing your comments.
GRB Dave,
Welcome to PP.
Hello Jim,
I understand what Jim M. meant, about trying to enforce this sort of response on a body of believers.
Jim Middleton,
Perhaps you could sort this out for me:
when you write:
“When folks are commenting that it would be great if their own churches did so and so or such and such it causes me to be concerned about what they are really describing…”
Did you get from the posts Solus and I have been interacting with here that impression?
Because I think we have mentioned something to the effect that this type of behaviour cannot be mandated or forced upon a group.
I believe we all agree here:
The goal:
healthy sheep who had been taught God’s word well and put Him as Lord over their lives.
and
It was the response of love, the fruit of the word and love of God in the people’s lives.
as Jim B stated in an earlier post.
The problem is that there are those people who have been in churches where they were not properly taught,
while they may have been taught the word “technically correct”
they may not have been taught how to properly apply the word of truth to their lives, people desiring to know the word of God for head knowledge, But not a hunger and desire to know God of the Word and as you say, making disciples who are committed to growth and maturity and making Jesus Lord of their lives.
“You will never have a positive view of yourself, seeing yourself as God sees you, IF you make that your goal. Seeing yourself as God sees you, having a healthy self image or self esteem, is a fruit.”
Jim M.,
Are you saying that a person who does not have a healthy self image or self esteem has no fruit in their life?
I look forward to your response.
When I got the first copies of my book, I began reading a couple of chapters a week to our home fellowship group during our midweek study. I would read and then we would discuss what I had read.
One night after I had read to the group, and we were about 3/4 of the way through the book, a woman in our group commented: “Well, now we know what is expected of us.” I hadn’t really expected that response.
But, I answered her: “No, that is not really how the events came about. We weren’t “expected” to do these things, or really even admonished to do them. I was great love and simply responding to the Lord as He was leading, teaching us and working in our lives that caused this response. It wasn’t legalistically imposed in any way.“
That should be “It was” not “I was”.
JimB.,
That’s what my hubby says.
But, he always has his nose in the newspaper in the mornings and watches sports at night! lol
Solus,
>>That’s what my hubby says.
I lost the context of what you are refering to here. Which comment are you referring to?
Sorry, Jim. I have been jumping around reading posts I missed last night. About your wife not blogging… one blog addict in the house is enough. That’s what my hubby says about me.
Sister Christian wrote, “For some that means, like we are doing, selling our house, our belongings, (remember the other house i sold, the one with the raspberry bushes and roses that I loved? God told me to open my hands and let it go… and then later… with the proceeds from that He gave me the opportunity to buy the church, that Lord willing we will be able to restore and put into the hands a body of believers that gather there)”
Sister Christian, yes, it will be very exciting living in France for a year. You have a newly refurbished home awaiting your arrival and that lovely rose garden. You will probably receive many visitors!
Solus,
I see!
Re: Sharing in each other’s joys and sorrows… and a contest to find the most caring child:
One of the sweetest stories I have ever read is here in Jim’s book:
“The winner was a four year old boy whose next door neighbor was an elderly gentleman who had recently lost his wife. Upon seeing the man cry, the little boy went into the old gentleman’s yard, climbed onto his lap, and just sat there. When his mother asked what he had said to the neighbor the little boy said, “Nothing, I just helped him cry.”
The people in my life (past and present) have always practices simple acts of love (like Jim describes in his book). These people are not scholars, not even teachers, but Believers who love Christ and live their days caring for their families and neighbors and sharing in simple ways, work, etc.. They would not even consider their good deeds as “works” as it comes natural to them in every day life. My mother always taught me what Jesus taught His disciples in Matthew.
On page 39, I particularly love what Jim wrote, along with scripture:
“In contrast, the Pharisees in Jesus’ day did not do their good deeds in secret but in the open so that they would be seen by others doing them. But this was not God’s will for His people. In Matthew 6:3, Jesus taught His disciples that when they were giving to the poor they were “not to let their right hand know what their left hand was doing.” In our lives as Christians, God wants us to not be calculated about the kind and good things that we do. There should be a certain unconscious or maybe even a child-like aspect to the charitable things that we do in responding to needs as they arise. This child-like unconsciousness should characterize us in the body of Christ in the good deeds we perform.”
I love this paragraph:
Pg. 56 “It is within the church community that we are all strengthened and encouraged. A bunch of logs burns brightly together but one set apart soon begins to lose its heat and its glow. So too when we separate ourselves from fellowship in the body of Christ we weaken and soon lose the glow of our light and fervor for the Lord. This is surely why the writer of the book of Hebrews admonishes us to support each other.”
“We Christians also struggle with temptations, sin, and spiritual warfare. We are in warfare because we belong to the Lord and yet live in a world under the dominion of rebellious spirits led by Satan. We need the body of Christ because we are strengthened when we meet with the body. To meet with the body of Christ causes us to take a walk in God’s light and even causes us to be cleansed from sin.”
Amen Jim.
“Are you saying that a person who does not have a healthy self image or self esteem has no fruit in their life?”
Not sure how you got there nor how to answer it.
Hello Jim M.,
I read it from your 10:01 am post and trying to understand it.
“Jim Middleton
Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:01 am
As I skim several of the posts I will offer again my advice on putting first things first. You will never have a positive view of yourself, seeing yourself as God sees you, IF you make that your goal. Seeing yourself as God sees you, having a healthy self image or self esteem, is a fruit. Its a by product. “
Jim B.,
The story you share about your grandfather (when he received Christ) is amazing. I am surprised you addressed him that way, but glad you had the courage … and love.
Also: I appreciate your honesty about your finances… so, Jim, life isn’t a bowl of cherries for Pastor’s either?!
Jim, every time I drop a bill in the mailbox, I thank God for giving me the means to pay it.
I wasn’t sure how non-Christians would respond to my book, but I tried to write in such a way that it would not be in your face and push people away who do not know the Lord. I quote a lot of scriptures and speak a lot about the truth, but the scriptures and my observations about the church are sort of a footnote to what was going on. The amazing thing to me has been that a number of non-Christians have read the book and they all told me that they really liked it. Usually books that have a lot of scriptures and deal a lot with the truth are not read or liked by many non-Christians.
Also, some Christians have read the book several times and have said that they have gotten new things from it every time.
Solus,
A year or so before my grandfather passed away, I heard Walter Martin preach on deathbed conversions, and basically I followed the way that he said you need to approach them. Such a person is standing at the gates of hell and you have to grab them out of the flames using all of the force you have within you.
Folks,
Its that time of the night again… Have a good night all, and thank you so much for all of that you have shared. Great thoughts. God bless–Jim
Solus,
Thanks and I understand where I posted that self esteem is a fruit or by product. I did not anywhere post anything close to what you are asking about self esteem are producing no fruit. I can’t clarify a question when that question has nothing to do with what I posted.
If I could I would.
Jim
Jim M.,
I obviously miss-understood (sorry). I wanted to make sure that is not what you meant. Thanks for responding and have a great morning!
JimB.,
I am reading the part about Betty and Don moving to the new house in the country and how the Body of Christ helps them. It’s beautiful when Christians come together to help one another. I come from the midwest, this is how people live every day. They help one another. If a farmer gets hurt or sick and cannot plow his field, the farmers surrounding his property come to plow his field for him. They take care of one another during difficult times, good times too. Like a huge family. When one suffers they all suffer. When there is joy for one, there is joy for all.
When my father and grandmother passed away, dozens of people from my hometown brought food and goods to the house. The pastor came to our house several times. People cared. Many of the people in our world today have never witnessed or experienced this kind of love; when your heart is broken and you sob with pain… the Body of Christ embraces you and sobs with you. When life is joyful and things are going well, the Body of Christ celebrates with you. It’s so beautiful.
What you are describing is a huge family. The Body of Christ.
Jim, just realizing, that’s why you titled your book, “The Body of Christ in All Her Glory.”
This is the most beautiful part to me: pg 79
Jim wrote, “Don and Betty were moving out of free of charge. The body of Christ at Crescent Heights shone with the light of glory of God and one would have had to be blind not to see it.”
The words, “… one would have to have had to be blind not to see it.”
Exactly, not a word had to be spoken, their (His) light was so bright that words were not necessary (therefore, making it all the more beautiful). No one sought personal gain or attention, they simply loved.
Solus,
In my first cut of writing the book, it was when I had finished writing the last paragraph (the second to last chapter in the book now) that I suddenly realized that this phrase that I had repeatedly mentioned in my writing came from the scripture in Ephesians 5 where Paul writes about Christ washing us with word that He might present us as the church in all her glory. Then, it occurred to me that it also had to be the title of the book itself because it expressed most what I had written about.
Jim,
“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory.”
Jim, this is beautiful along with all three paragraphs at the end of the book (I peeked
).
I’m glad Don bought Betty that house. I can relate to “cleaning” the way she was, a woman does that before having a baby too. Betty wanted everything in place for her husband and children. She thought of them first, and they were thinking of her first. Her life was special. God didn’t give up on her because of her sins; he formed and shaped her to become the woman He intended her to be. God used the Body of Christ to accomplish His will. God loved her all her life and was waiting for her. Gosh… that brings tears. And, in doing so… so many other lives were also changed and touched. May Betty rest in peace.
Now, Jim, I get to read about your church planting…
And, we can’t forget those who came to Christ because of her (His) light. Her sons came to know and accept Jesus (and probably others).
Solus,
No problem. I am more than happy to engage in dialog. Didn’t want you to conclude that I was unwilling to further the conversation. At the same time I couldn’t answer a question that had nothing to do with what I posted. If you’d like to discuss how the benefits of the Christian life are experienced I’ll be more than happy to talk about such. A positive self esteem is a benefit, a fruit, an outcome, not a direct target to be pursued. Way too many folks who are quick to label themselves with the “problem” of low self esteem are at the same time their own worse enemies in trying to have a positive self esteem. Those same folks have set “feeling good about myself” up as a target or a goal to pursue. That strategy is immediately doomed to fail you see. They are trying to achieve a thing, a positive self esteem, with a strategy that will never work. So they read endless books about “having a positive self image…” and despite a great deal of well intentioned and earnest work, still feel badly about themselves. Probably even worse as now they have all this “work” they’ve done and they are still struggling with low self esteem. They must really be messed up if after doing all that work they are STILL feeling badly about themselves.
You see the setup is wrong. A person will never feel good about themselves by setting “feeling good about myself” up as the goal.
For me joy is really the best example to understand this process. Joy is a by-product never an end game. Never the target or goal. You can’t have joy if you pursue joy.
When you read stories like Betty’s story we all will do well to keep how it is everyone in this story was setup to have their magnificent experience. The investment in their Christian maturity came first. Then once the need arose, meeting that need was natural if you will. It was “normal” for folks and their church to respond as they did. It wasn’t artificial. It wasn’t a “program”. It was the Body of Christ living.
We all want and desire that same kind of experience. God wants it for us. We won’t have it by seeking the experience. We stand a chance of having experiences like it by pursuing Biblical maturity. The path to what Jim describes is what he and his church practiced. They were and are committed to Christian maturity.
While I might not be 100% correct I’m pretty sure all of what God has in store for us to experience comes that same way. We pursue becoming conformed to the image of Christ, then all sorts of experiences or fruits come our way. One of those “fruits” is a positive self esteem.
Can you image Paul stopping a missionary journey to attend a conference on “How to have a positive self esteem”? Seems ludicrous doesn’t it? Yet despite all his history (remember he basically was a murderer) and shortcomings I don’t once see Paul struggling with perhaps his self esteem being low and getting in his way of doing what Christ wanted of him.
We need to feel good about ourselves. Absolutely! Any one who says a positive self esteem is unimportant is off their rocker….. But we don’t there by pursuing positive self esteem as a goal. We get there by pursuing Christ and Christ likeness and to our utter amazement, we find we have an unimaginable value to ourselves and to the Lord. And at the very moment it dawns on you how the Lord has given you a great gift of worth, self esteem, right at that moment, you drop on your knees and worship like never before.
I hope that makes sense.
All of the Christian life is a gift, an outcome, waiting to be experienced by following a living Person not by pursuing experiences after experiences.
I want churches and all the “Betty’s” of this world to experience what Jim has documented in his book. We and they won’t get there by setting up some kind of program to minister to the Betty’s of this world. By pursuing the experience. They’ll get there, I’ll get there, by pursuing maturity in Christ.
Jim
Jim M.,
Good morning and thank you for coming back to discuss these issues.
I only inquired more about the self-esteem, self-image subject because many of the people who visit this site have been abused, deeply hurt by the church or suffer from depression. I’ve never been hurt by the church, nor do I suffer from depression but I’ve witnessed some pretty crazy things in a church before; and at a very young age I was verbally abused and physically beat which has caused me to suffer some of these things re: self-esteem. But it was because of the way I was miss-treated very young. Jim, it’s difficult to shake, but God’s Word and love and promises bring peace in my heart and mind.
Jim M., your post is inspiring to me (and I’m sure will be to many others). I appreciate the way you call them “benefits of the Christian life”. It is sad that people are being taught (by church, leaders) that to acquire a better self-esteem or any personal improvement really, you have to buy a book and follow this program. If we go in the Christian bookstores today… that pretty much all we see “how to” do this and that to get … whatever. Exactly, what you said about having all the “work” to do.
Jim M. wrote: “When you read stories like Betty’s story we all will do well to keep how it is everyone in this story was setup to have their magnificent experience. The investment in their Christian maturity came first. Then once the need arose, meeting that need was natural if you will. It was “normal” for folks and their church to respond as they did. It wasn’t artificial. It wasn’t a “program”. It was the Body of Christ living.”
Yes, everyone in the story who came forward and extended their love to Betty and her family experienced something beautiful within… but first, they felt a love in their heart and loved her. You are right, it wasn’t artificial. Your comments about “programs”… I completely agree.
Your story about Paul is so true. We have become such wimps today.
You wrote: “But we don’t there by pursuing positive self esteem as a goal. We get there by pursuing Christ and Christ likeness and to our utter amazement, we find we have an unimaginable value to ourselves and to the Lord. And at the very moment it dawns on you how the Lord has given you a great gift of worth, self esteem, right at that moment, you drop on your knees and worship like never before.”
Jim M., exactly. Pursuing Christ and Christ’s likeness. I find comforts in seeking God’s Word and promises, how He created us and how much he loves us. These things along with prayer can wash away many struggles that people have today.
Jim M., “And at the very moment it dawns on you how the Lord has given you a great gift of worth, self esteem, right at that moment, you drop on your knees and worship like never before.”
Amen. It’s also important to notice in Jim B.’s book that all those acts of love are what many would describe as small, sweet little deeds (but perhaps not all that significant, many people want to do big, glorious things, great things). You will also notice that much of the kindness and love shown in Jim’s book didn’t cost money, but invested time in a person’s life.
I believe many churches and leaders (ministries) have become lost. Their “programs” cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and they are so structured in “doing” stuff… and to become known for what they have accomplished that they have lost the experience of knowing a simple, sweet kind of love. I also noticed in Jim’s book that these people didn’t desire or seek recognition. They were not boastful or filled with pride. It was quite the opposite.
Yes, your words do make sense and they are inspiring.
I’ve experienced what Jim describes and in my humble opinion I believe it is that kind of love (the Body of Christ) that God intended. There have been many people in my life as those whom JimB describes in His book (and I love and cherish those saints).
Thank you for sharing them with me.
Jim M.,
Have you checked out any of the other threads on this blog? This blog truly is one of the most provocative blogs on the internet for Christians today. Perhaps 20 people regularly post, another 20 perhaps post occasionally, but thousands read the posts.
One of the things to recognize about this blog is that the posters here range widely in their doctrinal perspectives and traditions. We have regular posters who are from CC, Baptist, Lutheran, Emergent, Reformed, European Orthodox, Catholic, Agnostic, etc. I don’t know of another debate I have ever entered into with any group that drew from anything close to this spectrum. Now, over the period of over four years that the blog has been operational all of us from our various traditions have learned for the most part how to respect and communicate with each other in such a way as to learn from each other. You will learn that many things you have taken for granted your entire Christian experience you will find are questioned.
London, one of the posters here described the pp experience to a guy whom many of us were disagreeing with thusly:
“Tim Wirth….we are known here for the fights and the good and the swearing and the joking and the cussing and the shouting and the kindness and the cruelty and the compassion and the stomping off and the coming back and the stomping off again and the obnoxiousness and the charm and the hostility and the crabbiness and the piousness and the sarcasm and the honesty and holiness and the humility and the abrassiveness and the sweetness and the blatantness and the variety and yep….the weird reality show that we are here.
Pretty cool huh?”
I hope you stay around here because you have much to share and I know you will learn tons also!
Solus,
“…you have to buy a book and follow this program.”
You left out this more common scenario. Church A notices that the folks in Church B seem to have a “better” Christian experience than the folks in Church A. So Church A sends a delegation to Church B to discern why. Those concerned and well intentioned discerning folks check out Church B and then come back to Church A with the “news” that Church B’s people are having a better experience with their Christianity because Church B does “X”, “Y” and “Z”. Church A decides to implement “X”, “Y” and “Z” and works very hard to do so. They go to training seminars, may even spend 40 days doing such and such and this and that and after a few years of implementing to their very best “X”, “Y” and “Z”, church A falls apart, dies and sells their property to a growing Lithuanian Orthodox Church who move in their icons and paintings. And mostly the folks at Church A blame the church for abusing them and burning them out. The good caring and well intentioned believers from Church A are angry however being “good” Christians will not openly discuss or acknowledge their anger and as a result are left with the only option which is to internalize their anger. And since God made us in a particular way, a way that won’t allow us to carry internalized and unresolved anger for months and months as anger, folk’s anger turns into depression. And one of the the last things those folks from Church A want to hear is maybe the whole setup was flawed and that flawed setup and quite possibly their own expectations led to their downfall and their current complaint of depression. And of course the very LAST thing of their list of last things is ever return to church.
You left that out…..
Jim
Jim, oops… I am worn out after reading what I left out!
Solus,
How far have you read now?
Hello Jim B.,
I am on the first few pages of Chapter 10.
Sister Christian… have you finished the book yet?
Jim B.,
Your book inspires me to start a home fellowship. How many people belonged to yours?
Can’t believe Don and the kids came to the fellowship the day Betty died. This confirms how close the Body of Christ can really become, like you said in the beginning… like a real family.
Gosh, Jim, pg 95 is really sad. Betty would have sobbed with joy, having her husband, children and family all together on this day. What a wonderful way to show your love to the one walking into Jesus’ arms.
Solus,
We had about 10 total that came to the home fellowship.
pg 99 “The body of Christ is meant to be a family. This is obvious in 1 Corinthians 12:21-26 where it is written that we are to rejoice with those who rejoice and sorrow with those who sorrow, that the weaker members of the body need care and special attention and thus we are to show abundant honor to them, and we are to show the same care to everyone.”
Jim, that is exactly what the fellowship did… you all rejoiced together and cried together and you took care of the weaker members of the body, giving them special care and you gave honor to Betty. You showed the same care to everyone… even those who were in prison. Just because people sinned and did wrong, you took them in and placed them under Christ’s wing and taught them His Word and simply loved them… and allowed the Holy Spirit to work in their lives… all was in God’s time.
JimB-
Should I e-mail you my address so you can send me an autographed book
Vanessa and Brenda are quite the girlfriends! Make-up and Chin hairs … lol
God made girlfriends for these purposes, Jim.
Please Note,
Be glad to: jbomkamp at yahoo.com
Please Note, you will enjoy Jim’s book.
Geez, Jim, you are one tough pastor! A “Metaphorical kick!”… first grandpa and now Vanessa!
Hi Solus,
are you still online?
Jim, this is sad… and then, you cried when you told her not to.
Solus, you have mail
This is very beautiful and true: “Betty demonstrating for us the mystery of the fruitfulness of God’s love not so much in the way she lived for Him but in the way she died for Him.”
Hello Sister! You’re tardy once again.
I will go check it, Sis.
Solus Christus,
Im almost to chapter 8
Solus Christus
Check, theres 1 more
JimB-
UGM
Thanks Solus.
Hey Sis!
Jim B~
Isnt this an amazing place…
its our beautiful blog family that you describe!
“One of the things to recognize about this blog is that the posters here range widely in their doctrinal perspectives and traditions. We have regular posters who are from CC, Baptist, Lutheran, Emergent, Reformed, European Orthodox, Catholic, Agnostic, etc. I don’t know of another debate I have ever entered into with any group that drew from anything close to this spectrum. Now, over the period of over four years that the blog has been operational all of us from our various traditions have learned for the most part how to respect and communicate with each other in such a way as to learn from each other. You will learn that many things you have taken for granted your entire Christian experience you will find are questioned.”
Much like out on the mission feild too!
Hi Please Note!
Ive been praying for you! How is your wife?
send her my kindest regards!
Sister Christian,
Thank you for your kind note. I love it! Beautiful!! I received both notes.
Sister, I sure enjoy our conversations about the Lord. Even though sometimes we struggle with a few things about sin/salvation, I want you to know that I love you very much… and it’s okay with me that we are learning God’s Word together and don’t always see everything the same way. Blessings
SC-
You’re too kind, thanks for the prayers!
My wife is doing better, thanks. I will let her know you said ‘hi’ in the morning, as she is worshiping at St Mattress at the moment
Hey, is that lighthouse on the Oregon Coast? I have a very similar pic on my fridge.
Solus,
Did you laugh?
Sister Christian,
UGM again.
JimB,
Which part are you referring to?
Solus,
Vanessa singing…
Solus,
It was hysterical happening after what I had said to her.
Jim, you must be referring to the make-up part. Yes, I laughed.
You wrote such nice things about Betty (p 111, 112). Betty probably had no idea she had touched so many lives, yours and Brenda’s… Vanessa’s. It is really sweet and kind what you wrote.
Yes… yes… there are so many sensitive parts in these chapters, I didn’t dare write yes or no. Yes, I laughed the way you spoke to Vanessa. And when Vanessa was so brave… THEN, you cried, after she was strong…
I thought (about you) … “cupcake”…
Chapter 13… “Where Do We Go From Here?”
Jim, please, Don’t tell me the church only gets one chapter…
Solus,
The story is not going where you think it is going…
Guys,
I have to hit the hay it is way late here and I get up fairly early these days. God bless–Jim
Jim,
I am skimming pages of Chapter 13 and the Epilogue… I thought you were going to plant a church? Where is it going, Jim? Sniff, sniff… I’m a little upset about not hearing about the church plant, selling the house … are you going to give me a hint or do I have to continue reading?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Don’t tell me you are going to be like Pastor H. G. Bosch (Ch. 2) and unpack your wagon…
I have been told that the best is yet to come. Good night Solus!
G’night Jim…
I am going to go get my book light clip and go read the last chapter (13) (and the Epilogue)… it appears these two chapters may be rather deep. Besides, Sis needs time to catch up on her reading.
Night everyone and Sis, thanks so much for the kind notes.
p.s. Jim, that make-up story: My sister and I made that promise to one another when we were about 10 years old (that we would do what Vanessa and Brenda did for Betty). Night. Night Please Note and Sis.
G’night Solus!
Sweet Dreams To All…
Nite Solus, Please Note and Jim…
Ill catch up, on the reading and join you all tomorrow Lord willing!
Jim M.,
Last night for our midweek study, our church began going through The Truth Project. Wow, I was really impressed with the first of the twelve videos that we watched. The project is designed to give people a Christian world view and thus be able to appreciate the Lord more because of the fact that He has spoken to every issue and in every arena of life.
I kept thinking about our discussion about self esteem/image as I was watching last night. In the first video, he brings out how that what Jesus said that He came to do is, “I came into the world to testify to the truth.” Then, he continues on and talks about every way in which coming to know with Jesus involves coming to the truth. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. We are sanctified in the truth. Jesus constantly said, “Truly, truly.” Which is where our word “amen” comes from. Finally, Jesus said to His disciples, “and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”
One of the reasons that we have to be growing in our relationship with Christ and that having a good self image/worth is a by product of this relationship, is because getting to know the Lord and growing in the Lord is the process of having the lies this world has bought into revealed for what they are and coming to the know the truth about God, the world, and ourselves. You can’t just find a little piece of the truth about God and yourself and then as a result you will have a good self image/worth.
Your thoughts?
Good morning,
I have not participated in The Truth Project but I certainly agree with what you have posted. I would add something to this however, “the lies this world has bought into”. The target for the truth while one would hope the lies “out there” would be addressed is not the lies the world has bought into. The target are the lies I have bought into. Its real easy, too easy maybe cause the size of and the evidence of the lies “out there” to focus on them. Doing so is a distraction. I am not free to the degree that the truth addresses those lies. I am free as I am addressing, identifying, targeting, uprooting, challenging the lies which I consider true. Its the lies I believe in, have bought into, when replaced with the truth that make me free. And its more than that. When one deals with lies, untruths, etc., that is only part of the work on the road to freedom. It is when I move past the “lies” that I believed and believe in, acted on in my choices etc., to how I have not only believed in lies but am a liar, it is accepting the full truth of the who I am that I get to Christ’s freedom.
Wish it weren’t so but Paul penned Romans 7 before Romans 8. Romans 7 without Romans 8 is pure misery and works and hopelessness. But Romans 8 without Romans 7 is denial. We of course do not live in Romans 7. We live in Romans 8. What I think we have a tendency to do as we grow in Christ is we conveniently forget that no good thing dwells within us. It is always amazing to me how far Paul had come, how much ministry he had accomplished, how committed he was when he wrote things like he is the chief amongst sinners.
As you have noted freedom comes from the whole truth, not grabbing on to a part of truth and hanging on to that part for dear life.
It seems to me I can do very little to impact and change the lies the world has bought into. Certainly have tried. Can’t say I’ve been all that successful. I can however do a great deal about the lies I have bought into. Am continually surprised to learn the extent that I have done so.
Come Lord Jesus come…..
I took a quick look at the Truth Project. Looks pretty good. If Ravi Zacharias endorses it, I’d say go for it. I’m probably going to look deeper into it and consider participation, etc.
Let me know how it goes for you and your folks.
Jim B,
This is a short read. It used to be a book. Went out of print however it is so good the folks who own the rights to it put it on-line for free.
It is about Guilt and Shame and Alcoholism. We’ve been meaning to do an intervention but just haven’t found time to get to Green Bay…. No really, its a great read but what I’d like you to do is read it from the point of view of the church. Read it from the point of view of this question, “What does ‘the truth will set you free’ look like?”
We throw terms around all the time. I’ve become more sensitive to while those terms are 100% true, what do those terms look like in practice? How do those truths look? So yes, 100% true, the Truth will set you free! Ok, what does that look like in practice?
This little article by Kurtz that has nothing to do with the church, it at the same time has EVERYTHING to do with the church.
See if it answers some of what you asked about my thoughts regarding your previous post and The Truth Project.
Jim
http://hindsfoot.org/eksg.html
Jim M.,
I read about half of that, not exactly what I call a short read. Did you ever read, “The God Players” ? It was written by one of the original people in the beginning of AA in order to explain how the concepts of AA originally came from the scripture and were part of a totally spiritual and biblical approach to life and healing. I still refer to principles in that book at times.
Haven’t read it. With Kurtz booklet think “how the Body of Christ is the place Truth sets you free…” more than about AA.
When you finishing wading through that little booklet by Kurtz, here is another link. It is Wesleyan but we won’t hold that against them….
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/06-10/06-6.htm
The point of view is the Body of Christ and how “The Truth shall set you free…” looks.
Just a quick point. Not trying to divert the thread from Betty’s story to AA or recovery. Trying to further the dialog regarding the Body of Christ and how Betty’s story is a great illustration in the real world regarding the points made in both of the links I provided. Both links are not off the subject. The substance of both is right on target to this thread.
Well, it looks like everyone else was as busy as I was last night. Thursday night has turned into my busiest night of the week because I am trying to get the skeleton outline for Sunday’s message completed so that I can email it out to the Sunday School teachers for their Sunday morning study (the kids go through the same study as the adults at our church on Sunday morning). So, last night after my fulltime job I studied for 2 ½ hours and then spent 2 hours typing up the outline. Maybe, we could all plan to meet this evening? I can stay up a little later since it is Friday night and I get to sleep in an hour later.
Jim M.,
I hear you that in the church we should confess our faults and sins one to another, and speak the truth in love to each other. This is part of the growth and healing process for believers. The problem I have with the AA program is really two-fold:
First, they tell you that you need to have power of some sort bigger than yourself that you acknowledge. A worshipper of Baal could make Baal his god and supposedly have all of the same results. This secular and pluralistic approach also attempts to solve man’s guilt and shame using a means other than the cleansing of the blood of Jesus applied through regeneration and the Holy Spirit (1 John 1:9).
Secondly, accountability is a good thing but you can’t make people accountable in the church. People can always hide and deceive if they are disposed to do so, and believe me I have tried many times to hold people accountable and it has never worked. Usually they just get mad and leave the church. It also makes for a works/legalistic approach to brothers and sisters in Christ. Accountability is something that if a person is willing to make themselves accountable to someone or some group it is great and a huge blessing in their lives (for the power of sin is in hiding), but enforced it often leads to abuse.
I’m sorry if I am missing the point you are trying to make here. I’ll read the other article later. Derailing of threads happens all of the time on pp, it is the way we individually tend to approach them often.
Jim M.,
The other issue I have with AA is that you never really become transformed. Once an alcoholic you are always considered an alcoholic. A childhood friend of mine died a few years ago and I looked up her brother to talk with him. He has been a believer for 30 years now but he had backslidden for many years and found himself in an alcoholic lifestyle. He was still actively involved in AA after ten years off the bottle. I asked him why he didn’t move on with his life and he told me that once you’re an alcoholic you will always be one and that you have to stay in treatment forever because once sober your just on a dry drunk. Helping others in the same lifestyle you were in is also key to your healing. 2 Cor. 5:17 says we are new creatures in Christ and all things are new for us now that we are in Christ. Our lives transform (Rom.12:1-2), we don’t just quit doing certain things for a time.
“The problem I have with the AA program is really…”
Don’t want to make my links about AA. Want them to be about the Body of Christ and the “how it looks…” issue.
If you can read both. If you can’t, read the second Wesleyan one. But both are excellent and Kurtz provides much more information regarding why “how it looks” works.
Jim M.,
I read the Wesleyan article. It was slow getting going but the last part of the article made some good points about trust, communication, and openness and how these things are key ingredients in bringing about revival. That is good stuff Jim!
Its amazing how quickly we in the church turn from what makes for real fellowship and spiritual growth to institutionalism…
This ties to your book.
In order to have healthy Christian fellowship, the church must give priority to creating and maintaining situations which promote openness and honesty in daily Christian living.
It is only through open relationships that we really get to know each other. Knowing is a full exposure of oneself to another, a personal sharing in full trust. Such openness has a risk involved for if such a relationship is not governed by love it can be brutal. Francis Schaeffer declares that “genuine love, in the last analysis, means a willingness to be entirely exposed to the person to whom we are talking.”
And the conclusion….
There emerges from this study, ” Shame vs . Guilt: A New Framework for Evangelism and Fellowship in Wesleyanism, ” certain important practical implications for contemporary Wesleyan theology and practice.
First, while the crisis experiences of regeneration and sanctification for Wesleyan theology and preaching are necessary and crucial, a greater emphasis must be put upon the maintenance and development of dynamic, growing relationship with Jesus Christ or the result will be stagnation and stultifying legalism. A small group atmosphere of love and trust is a safe place for open sharing and exposure of one’s innermost self. Large relatively impersonal worship services seldom provide this climate. The genius of the early Methodist movement lay in the weekly class meeting which provided the fellowship of the small group with its open, honest sharing of personal religious experiences through confession, forgiveness, and mutual witnessing to the efficacy of divine grace (cf. James 5:16-20).
Second, the Spirit filled life-God intoxication-helps release one from a self oriented life primarily concerned with covering or protecting the self from feared shameful exposure. The Spirit helps one to live an open life released from shame domination, an over concern for one’s self and what others think of him, liberating him to experience the true perfect love which Wesley so ardently emphasized .
I hope you can dig through Kurtz. The stuff on commonality and mutuality is spot on in regards to why we need to eliminate the pretense that characterizes our typical church experience.
Jim M.,
Good points Jim. I think the process of revelation begins with “me” opening up but it is also dependent upon bonds of trust that need to be built. In other words I think that what you are speaking of begins in small steps and can only proceed as an exchange between people in a give and take sort of way. Otherwise, it would be too threatening to people, especially the men.
I’m at work and can on breaks hit the web. I don’t want the anchor of this thread to get lost. Betty’s experience, your church’s experience, as reflected and documented in your book. Kurtz and the Weseleyan article answer the question “why” you had your collective experience and how “the Truth shall set you free” looks. There is a reason why you folks experienced what you did AND its not some secretive process that only you folks had a chance to experience so that the rest of us are out of luck. Those two articles point to “why” it worked. Common parts of both articles are things like smaller groups, risking honesty, etc.
My input in the thread started with what folks are looking for in our Christian walk can best be categorized as fruits, our outcomes, of pursuing Christ likeness. The links I provided just add more to that point. If we want what you documented in your book, there is a way we can set ourselves up to have a shot at experiencing the same kind of feelings, closeness, etc. It is not by seeking the experience. It is in honest risk taking fellowship we both tell the truth AND follow The Truth. Both Kurtz, AA aside, and the article on the Weselyan web site help understand the facts of it, the how it works, if only to answer the question for folks, “Okay, what do I have to do so that I can just maybe, just possibly be loved like Betty and love like Betty?”
I’m not sure if that makes full sense or not.
JimB.,
Good Morning,
I am speechless. Honestly, I don’t even know where to start first regarding discussing the last chapter (and Epilogue) of your book, “The Body of Christ in All Her Glory”.
First: Jim, please confirm for me… was this church (and the church you pastor now); are they CCs?
Secondly: Reading the last few pages, I thought of a couple people… Nancy, especially, came to my mind; and Dusty came to my mind and all the people here who have been hurt by a pastor or a church Body. This really brings tears to my eyes because these people who have been deeply hurt… they especially need to hear these words, scripture quoted with explanations and God’s truth. This last chapter (and Epilogue) would bless them greatly.
Thirdly: Jim, I really hope we can take these subjects in sections because by simply skimming over them gives them no justice. It’s like when we are all so busy and read something and say, “Oh, that was wonderful!” But, then, we go on to the next thing (or next book) or whatever and don’t really dive deep into what we just learned and apply it to our lives—never giving it full understanding.
I hope we can do that, perhaps on a new thread(s)… a continuation of this book, but a part 2 or something.
I also think about Paigemom. How deeply she was hurt and how she now goes through such struggles. I hope and pray she feels the Body of Christ wrapping around her and feels our (His) love.
Michael, you also have witnessed first-hand how the Body of Christ and a pastor is to conduct itself and how not to…
Michael, everything you have shown us relates to how a pastor is called to serve with love and humility… and how important it is to keep the Body of Christ pure. How important the Shepherd’s role is and when the Shepherd has strayed from the path.
Gentlemen, is Chapter 13 (Where Do We Go From Here?) and the Epilogue (Pastor to Pastor: a Pastoral Perspective (probably my favorite part of the book) worthy of separate threads so that these words don’t get lost???
I hope and pray that our friends take the time to read the whole book and save these two chapters for last.
Betty’s story is beautiful and sweet and a glorious testimony to how good our Lord truly is; but her story goes much deeper. This is a story about love, the Body of Christ in all her glory and how the Body of Christ becomes glorious and how important it is that she remain pure.
Sister Christian,
Have you finished the book? There are some areas I am anxious to discuss with you and Jim. Blessings
Solus,
Your back! I was wondering if the thread had run its course. I’m glad you finished the book and were impacted by those last two chapters. A lot of people have told me that they thought they were the best chapters. I don’t know that we are going to get a new thread for this, especially since Michael is away for a couple of days. If one of the moderators could make a decision soon that would be good.
>>First: Jim, please confirm for me… was this church (and the church you pastor now); are they CCs?
Yes, this was a CC church, and I am a CC pastor here in GB: http://calvarychapelgb.com
>>Secondly: Reading the last few pages, I thought of a couple people… Nancy, especially, came to my mind; and Dusty came to my mind and all the people here who have been hurt by a pastor or a church Body. This really brings tears to my eyes because these people who have been deeply hurt… they especially need to hear these words, scripture quoted with explanations and God’s truth. This last chapter (and Epilogue) would bless them greatly.
Waiting the fourteen years before writing this book gave me lots of time to frame the things that the Lord has taught me about the church. I am far from being a perfect person in any sense of the word, but I have tried to incorporate what I have learned in the churches I have planted since that time, and that means leading by example (again amidst failings and falling short). When some of the people in our church here read my book they made comments though like, “Now I know why our church is the way that it is,” “this is the way we have been treated here at the church,” etc.
I am planning to be around most of the night except for our prayer meeting from 7-8pm (central).
JimB.,
What I am about to say, I mean with the kindest intention, respect and love:
>>First: Jim, please confirm for me… was this church (and the church you pastor now); are they CCs?
Yes, this was a CC church, and I am a CC pastor here in GB: http://calvarychapelgb.com
JimB., I came from a community exactly as you describe in your book. The pastor of your (and Betty’s) church and the church you pastor today are exactly like my childhood pastor. A true Shepherd who loves, cares and protects their flocks.
Then, I moved far away and witnessed another form of worship and Shepherd-style and teaching … in one or two churches and my heart sank and was saddened, my heart, soul and spirit spiraled into confusion; and then, my eyes were opened.
JimB., this is the part I mean in the kindest way… “The Body of Christ in All Her Glory” (along with a few other pastors I have met here) give CC a good reputation, restoring my faith in that movement and cause me to step-away from believing they are all the same. The last two chapters of your book cause me to drop to my knees and praise God for His Word, His love and His beautiful Body—that surrounds us, waits for us and encourages us to become a part of… so we can know Him to the very fullest.
Thank you so much JimB., I hope we can have another Part 2. thread about where we go from here… Maybe we can all talk tonight.
God bless you, your wife and the churches you, obvious, love so much.
p.s. Remember, sometime some day we have to talk about the church plants, etc.
“I am a CC pastor…”
But we don’t hold that against him….
Jim M.,
Michael,
Can we please, pretty please, have a thread titled:
Pastor JimB’s Book - Part 2, “Where Do We Go From Here?”
Or, whatever is appropriate and okay with you and JimB.
Sister Christian is going to love these two chapters.
Almost everything we… including Sister Christian (and many others) post about is regarding Chapter 13 and the Epilogue.
Solus
Done
Solus,
Thank you for your kind words. I have been truly blessed in the churches that I have attended. I have not experienced the kind of abuse that others here have mentioned. I have learned a lot here about the type of abuse that has been occurring in a lot of other denoms around the country. That has made me even more resolute on providing the safest possible place for people to fellowship and have a church home. We some incredibly loving saints serving here at our fellowship, and truly we are a family here.
Part 2, “Where Do We Go From Here?”
In a small way that is what I’ve been addressing with my links.
JimB.,
Okay, 1) I missed a couple things: pg. 90 re: internship training, the experience, learning, teaching, being around people… walking through this journey with Betty, her family and the church you attended and the body of Christ… this journey you were on … God has been preparing you, Jim B. This is what you meant earlier in the story, when you commented (along with Jim M.) that many people today want to skip this part of the journey.
JimB. wrote, “I had learned what the body of Christ was supposed to do and be, and also what the role of a pastor should entail.” Jim, I am going to repeat this part. I HAD LEARNED WHAT THE BODY OF CHRIST WAS SUPPOSED TO DO AND BE, AND ALSO WHAT THE ROLE OF A PASTOR SHOULD ENTAIL.”
JimB. … This is what God taught you…
“I also learned what it meant to walk by faith and to be a good steward of the things that God gives you. God had confirmed to us our calling as well as His timing for us.”
Humm, our “calling” and His “timing”… that is amazing, Jim!
2) You lost me on page 91 at the bottom of page where you write, “Brenda and I realized that for now and for everyone’s sake, we needed to keep our new plans and this man’s phone call a secret.”
JimB., What happened? You didn’t finish the story…
Jim M. (4:37) “That’s right Jim. I have seen too many churches chasing experiences others have instead of building their own foundation and allowing God to bless them accordingly. ”
Now, I understand what you meant. So true, Jim M.
Jim M.,
You wrote on 1/29/09 5:56 am “… Its the lies I believe in, have bought into, when replaced with the truth that make me free. And its more than that. When one deals with lies, untruths, etc., that is only part of the work on the road to freedom. It is when I move past the “lies” that I believed and believe in, acted on in my choices etc., to how I have not only believed in lies but am a liar, it is accepting the full truth of the who I am that I get to Christ’s freedom. …”
Jim M., does this apply to all of us? Everyone?
Solus,
>>2) You lost me on page 91 at the bottom of page where you write, “Brenda and I realized that for now and for everyone’s sake, we needed to keep our new plans and this man’s phone call a secret.”
>>JimB., What happened? You didn’t finish the story…
What I was referring to was the fact that it was the day that Betty had died, and yet we were making big plans that God was orchestrating. But, we didn’t think we could tell anyone about these plans right now because of the grieving that they were going through. It would have thrown everyone over the edge. We had to keep this secret for a couple of weeks or so.
Sister Christian,
Come over to this thread…
JimB., I see. I kept waiting for you to share the story about your house selling and leaving the church and moving to your new place and starting a new church.
Have you ever told this story?
Solus,
I haven’t written about it really. We could discuss it at some time. Each church plant is a huge story in itself. I felt like I lived 7 years in the 3 1/2 years in which we planted the Montana fellowship.
Sister Christian,
Yes, the loud singing of praise music is beautiful.
Jim, I bet it is a huge story in itself.
“…that many people today want to skip this part of the journey.”
“Now, I understand what you meant. So true, Jim M.”
We all want shortcuts. And based on my experience in other places in the world, wanting shortcuts, which is probably an indication of the fallen nature of man, is universal.
The other thing is people who have the kind of experience Jim B writes about are sometimes there own worse enemies. They move to a different location and then try to duplicate the previous experience. Well intentioned mind you. Not judging anyone. Two things happen. First by not having the same experience they tarnish their earlier experience. Second, they limit God. The pattern is we grow and mature in Christ, Christ uses us as HE sees fit. By seeking to duplicate the previous experience they are more than likely cutting themselves off from even BETTER experiences.
Its not any more complicated than what Jesus has already provided in terms of the process or structure if you will. It goes like this…. “Seek FIRST the Kingdom of God, then ALL these things…” Its not rocket science.
“Jim M., does this apply to all of us? Everyone?”
I’m not exactly sure what you are asking. But my reflex reply is “Yes”.
If you have a moment read the link to the Weselyan article I posted several posts ago. Lies deals with guilt. Being a liar deals with my shame. When I can deal with my shame, I start to experience freedom. The “how” we deal with shame then is a big deal. Please try and read the Weselyan article. Not trying to turn everyone into Methodist here.
Pastor Jim B
Found these theads to be inspiring. Maybe I’ll buy the book after all. Curious though as to why you consider your 3 1/2 years in Montana feeling like 7.
Respectfully
Fleshdead