I first heard about David Di Sabatino because of his research on the Jesus People Movement.
Since then he has created one of the most fascinating documentaries I've ever seen, "Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher.
Now, he's back with a highly controversial new film about Christian music icon Larry Norman, "Fallen Angel".
The world premiere of the movie is at the Cinequest Film Festival in San Jose on March 1st, 2009. For more details, check the site at www.cinequest.org
PP : People keep bringing up "the motive" behind the films you make. What was the motive behind the Lonnie Frisbee film and the new Larry Norman documentary? Why Frisbee, why Norman?
DDS: Lonnie was a great story, and I was enticed by it by the nature of the way that people would speak about him, as if somehow they had walked with an apostle of faith. It was a story that seemed to have been ripped out of the pages of the Bible, the real Bible… not the one that has been utilized to promote the circus that purports to follow its lead.
I think there is a huge disconnect between the people who say that they are speaking on behalf of God and what I read in the Bible. When I look at the story of Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard, I see this great figure connecting them, someone that God would choose, but nobody else. God is so far out ahead saying, “I am going to choose this kid that struggles with what is going to become the most feared stigma in the near future.”
To me he is a much more interesting story than any of the other figures just because his life seems so biblically rich. For some reason, the powerbrokers don't like having a Rahab in their lineage. They'll say otherwise, but I am pretty sure that they felt the need to distance themselves from him and his influence. I think too many people can't step back from saluting the institution to see the grandeur of God in this story.
As for Larry, I have always been a fan of the man. His music has always been near and dear to my heart. In fact, I owe a great debt to him, as do a lot of people. His music provided the soundtrack to my early spiritual journey. For about 10 years that music was very important to me. I didn't really listen to him all that much after 1990, but when I started to turn my hand toward documentaries on this subject, he was a natural follow-up to Lonnie because of the degree of difficulty in telling the story.
I like difficult stories.
PP: Going back to the "Frisbee" documentary…in the time since you made the film are there things you have learned that change how you feel about Frisbees impact on the Vineyard and CC or how Frisbees legacy is handled by both organizations?
Things you would like to add?
DDS: I don't think I would change anything about the Frisbee documentary. It is always difficult to listen to some guy email who came to Calvary in 1980 and once had lunch with Chuck Smith tell me how wrong I got everything. But that is the nature of the beast. People are entitled to their opinion. I always tell them the same thing. Feel free to send me your documentary, book, painting or piece of furniture that artistically expresses your opinion.
Institutions are funny things. They are susceptible to things that have both positive and negative consequences. If you choose to align yourself with one, you might not be able to speak out loud lest ye come under the wrath of the henchmen that circle the king. There are a few guys I know that are like that character in the Lord of the Rings whose speeches are intended to vex and control the situation the way they see fit. Why the king can't see these people for what they are… one of life's mysteries. But I watched some honest guys come under extreme pressure because they wanted to be honest, but that kind of brutal honesty costs… and it costs big.
Too… how many people got so bent out of shape because the doc said that both Chuck Smith and John Wimber pushed Lonnie out of their lives. With Wimber it is obvious. With Chuck, Sr., I think he protests that because he allowed Lonnie to come back later on. While I don’t think it was as grievous as Wimber’s dismissal, I think there was a clear message sent to Lonnie that he was never going to fit in. Why, for instance, was Lonnie never ordained by Calvary Chapel but had to seek ordination from another organization someone else? But having said that… what is the big deal about saying that a guy that was shepherd over thousands of people coming to him dropped the ball with one? If that is the worst that is said about any pastor, I’m not sure that is such a bad mark against them.
PP: We got some comments claiming that you were not a believer, even one calling you an "enemy of the Gospel".
While I think it's irrelevant to the merit of your films would you be willing to tell us about your faith?
DDS: This is the interesting thing about your site, Michael, and even some of the comments that you make. I go in to www.phoenixpreacher.com on occasion and read this tendency to anathematize anyone who has a different take on things. Mark Driscoll is not a Christian because he speaks openly about oral sex. Todd Bentley isn't a Christian because he does what he does. On and on. You have your favorites and as long as everyone lines up with them, they are okay. If not… too bad, so sad, thanks for playing. Now depart, ye cursed…
That's a tough room.
I think that if you or I met the prophet Ezekiel or Hosea brought his whore wife over for dinner or John the Baptist sat at your table and demanded to be fed locusts and honey, we'd call the cops never mind anathematize them. I always ask people when they start parsing the life of Elvis or Bono or some lesser mortals and whether they are heaven bound what their reaction would be if the Apostle Paul showed up a few years after his conversion to speak in your hometown church, and he had been responsible for killing your parents. Not likely you’d be dropping a bundle in the offering that night.
God uses some of the most screwed up people to do his bidding. I think that story is sometimes tough to deal with. I sure don't like it at times, but nobody left me in charge.
As for me and my journey, I am not one to give in easily to tests of spirituality. I have the same reaction as Seinfeld's George Constanza to his father's testing his mettle during "the feats of strength" at Festivus. But I will say three things. First, I am not sure what the word "Christian" even means anymore. The word has been so abused by people claiming to be one and others slapping that label on products, it has lost its flavor, if it had any to begin with. (If memory serves, it was a term of derogation in its original use.)
Second, only people who know and interact with you in your daily lives have any right to answer that question. So, my wife, my step-kids, my friends. Some woman who emails me looking for clues on whether I measure up to her image of what Christianity means. Probably not. Finally, if someone has to explain their faith because it will assuage some sort of need for people to categorize, then I am all for obfuscation. Not just to be a pain, but with the hopes that the wrestling will cause people to explore and discover the wideness of God’s mercy that seems challenged by someone like me or someone much more important and visible.
PP:In recent days Charles Norman (Larry Norman's brother) has become more visibly active in denouncing you and questioning your integrity and trust worthiness.Why is he doing so and what is your response? Did you send him the movie?
DDS: Part of Larry's dysfunction was that in order to hide some of his bad behavior, he would threaten and bully anyone who was threatening or questioning his created reality. He used a form of "Christian guilt," pushing the person back by speaking about forgiveness and not lapsing over into bitterness. If you’ve ever heard the song “Shot Down,” that was a perfect example. If that didn't work, Larry would then use smear tactics to ruin that person's reputation.
This happened over and over and over again.
When he came after me, all I did was decide to shine a light. It wasn’t done in revenge, like he has claimed, but had been planned well before I even started talking to him. (In fact, when Matt Coker of the OC Weekly came by to do that cover story, he mentioned that I was telling him about Larry and following up the Lonnie doc with Larry. And that was BEFORE I even spoke with Larry.)
Ever since the day I told Larry that Randy Stonehill sat in my living room to give me a four hour interview, Larry started a smear campaign. He was deathly afraid of the truth coming to the surface. His closest friends say this fear was worse to him than the threat of hell itself. I am sure that this is going to get worse before it blows over. That is what was modeled.
Larry was a brilliant student of human psychology, and he knew what buttons to push to elicit responses. For years I'd watch him throw the first punch then run into the corner, put ashes on his face and claim the other guy started it. I think over time people began to see he was the boy who cried wolf, and most discerning types in the CCM industry left him alone.
I don't think that any of this poor behavior takes away from what he sewed to the good, because I think there was a complex set of circumstances that contributed to him being that way. None of that takes away from his personal responsibility, but it does make the behavior a little more understandable.
But documentary films aren't about what might be or how forgiveness overrides all that stuff… it is about the truth of what happened. And the film is about the manner in which three people who were closest and were hurt the most by Larry forgave him. This story is very different than the Lonnie one because I honestly went looking for another King David story, but what I found was King Saul. People are going to go mental when they read that because, apparently, you’re not supposed to say stuff like that. I’m not sure why. It is the truth.
As for the motivation of the story, the Bible records the adulteress affair of the King who had concubines a plenty, and yet wanted what he wanted because he could reach out and make it happen. It also tells of the dastardly deed he did to cover it up, and the punishment that was meted out upon him for doing these things. And yet, he was called a man after God’s own heart, however hard that is sometimes to understand.
I am a fan of the guy who took his life into his own hands to tell that story. I would imagine that he came under terrific pressure to not tell it. He may have even lost his life. I wouldn't imagine that the King's relatives would be too happy for that story emerging in the Jerusalem Times. And yet, we take great spiritual insight from that story. Those that say they follow this man Jesus, they above all people should be honest, even if it is difficult, even if it hurts in the telling.
PP :You've seen things and spoken to people in the church that most haven't. What has surprised you the most?
DDS: I am not sure the word "surprise" is a word I would use to describe about myself in many situations. What bothers me is the disconnect between the raw honesty of the Bible and the manner in which the institutional church conducts itself. I get the sense that the biblical writers didn't have an eye on political correctness when they wrote. The graphic sexuality of Song of Songs to the harsh statements of the prophets to the holistic nature of Jesus.
All of this reveals to me a much more fully-orbed worldview than I see reflected when I find myself perusing what is coming down the pipeline of the evangelical community. I am not saying that there aren't things to cheer about. The church is not a monolithic entity. But there is always the need to reform.
PP: Finally…you have the floor. What do you want us to know about you and your work?
DDS: If you ask me about what I am doing with my work, I would say that when I created the Frisbee I decided that what I didn’t want to do was create something that was similar to a Thomas Kinkade painting; these wonderful otherworldly landscapes where life is bathed in this cascade of light and fluorescent greens and yellows. I don’t like movies that tie up all the loose ends or music that has taken all the mystery out of life. If you ask me why I think so much artistic creation from the church falls flat, I would say that it isn’t honest. There is something in being brutally honest that is compelling. It is the reason that I was drawn to both Larry and Lonnie, because at certain levels there was an honesty to them that was far deeper than most, even if that didn’t always continue. People do not naturally like honesty. Heck, I don’t like it either some times. But I am not sure we can take much more of the alternatives.
PP: Thank you very much for sharing some time and your thoughts with us, David.
this was an outstanding interview, both in queries and responses. There is much to consider and weigh. DDS places a finger on one issue that occasionally pops up, and that is the fundamental misunderstanding and mistrust of art and expressive media. It shapes much of the difficulty in this very discussion. Thanks to DDS for the courage to venture into this nest of amateur pugilists.
Wow! A lot of material there…
Here’s my favorite quote:
” Feel free to send me your documentary, book, painting or piece of furniture that artistically expresses your opinion.”
Good interview Michael. While I really enjoyed Frisbee, I never was a fan of Norman so I’m not sure if I will see David’s new venture. I do feel that David’s answer to the question about his faith offer real insight to the attitudes many have about Christianity.
My favorite part was when DD condemned the room for being so tough & judgmental, and the proceeded to be judgmental towards the room. I’m sure DD was absolutely right when he proclaims that we’d show John the Baptist the door…I’m so glad he has that kind of insight about us.
Fascinating.
Thanks to DD and Michael. I always love to see how a creative mind works.
Neither Frisbee nor Larry had anything to do with my Christian life, but I found the interview interesting in Mr. Sabatino’s responses to criticism.
In the interview he uses the same tactic of hitting first and then retreating to the corner mentioned of Mr. Norman to defend himself. I also tire of the straw man argument so often used comparing every odd and wacko contemporary hero with the prophets, Rahab and John the Baptist.
Finally if honesty is what is essential to him then let’s go and look at people like Amiee Semple McPherson, the founder of the Four Square Church.
If there is one good thing about all of this “honesty” is it has driven me to scriptures and the God and Savior behind them. People who put their faith in Frisbee, Norman, Smith, Wymber or even Sabatino will be sadly disappointed.
Tim
I felt DD assessment of how the church would react to John the Baptist and others was pretty accurate. I’m sure there would be exceptions, and that might be you. I have believed for years that if Jesus were to walk on the earth again, it would be Christians that would nail Him to the cross once again.
What is so difficult about just taking in the interview without having to pick it apart? Some of you are doing exactly what DD pointed out in his interview. Does anyone besides me get tired of all the nitpicking?
Im with Tim
Sounds like DDS is just another guy pissed off at the church and expresses it by s picking off some of Christianities leaders. His comments drip with anger at Chuck Smith, and the Jesus movement.
Bob:
Don’t like that argument even though there may be some truth to it. Why? Because we paint the picture that He, Jesus, may look like a Bently or a Frisbee to us. The truth is Jesus looked like a respected Jewish Rabbi from Galilee, with one exception He put himself into the position of God!
If this (respect young Rabbi) is the model how then would Jesus look today? I would submit He would not look like either Frisbee, Bently, or even Chuck Smith.
Lute,
One person’s nitpicking is another person’s discussion.
Lutheran:
I think that is the whole point of posting an open comment interview. It allows people to respond It either proves or disproves the point of the interviewee and I think it grooms all of us, including Sabatino.
I know when Jesus comes again, no one will mistake Him for anyone else. So what we would or would not hypothetically do is kind of irrelevant. The brush is too broad sometimes. Makes for a bad painting.
Steve
I agree. DD is “pissed off” at the church. But my point is that many people people are upset with the church. We don’t have to agree with them, but we should listen. Some of the greatest lessons I learned when I was a pastor was from pissed off people. That might not make any sense to any of you.
Bob
Respectfully, I am kind of pissed off at the church too…but I won’t take cheap shots at people like Larry Norman or Lonnie Frisbee to bring Chuck Smith or any one else down and I certainly won’t do it after they are dead! He’s very cowardly…IMO
Bob
Can we still be friends
be careful about dismissing out of hand people who are pissed off at the church…some of us post here regularly.
“So what we would or would not hypothetically do is kind of irrelevant. The brush is too broad sometimes. Makes for a bad painting.”
TonyP
I respectfully disagree my friend. The Jesus that I read about in Scriptures would not fit into the cookie cutter mold that many Christians have placed Him in. Call it broad brush, straw man, or whatever you like.
If the Jesus that I love and serve were anything like the Jesus I read about and hear preached about by some, I would run from Him not to Him.
Steve
Always man!
Steve
Read your 7:45 before your 7:39. I think we are closer to agreeing that disagreeing. I’m not getting on DD bandwagon…………….I just feel he made some valid points about how some view Christianity.
Fil
didn’t diss the pissed of christians in fact I named my self as one of them…I just don’t like his tactics.
He is to Christianity what Hamas is to the Jews. He fired his gun then hides under women and children
Now that comment ought to get a response!!!
Hey, are we having fun or what!!
Bob
I know….just used your comment to make mine…after my last statement, you may not want to line up with me too quickly
Drew
I has nothing to do with what Jesus would look like but everything to do with what He would teach. The legalists rejected Him then, they would reject Him today.
DDS used the illustration of David’s sin being exposed. First off it was by a trusted respected friend and confidant. It was brutal, and honest but in the context of building up not tearing down.
Secondly, Nathan had demonstrated his loyalty to David and earned the right to be heard….I don’t think DDS fits tht criteria
Lastly, a guy by the name of Shimei denounced David as we was forced out of Jerusalem. It was only by the mercy of the king he didn’t take drastic action against him. But later Shimei was killed because the mercy of David and Soloman had run it course. In other words he dug his own grave.
So I wouldn’t be quick to associate my self as being “biblical” in outing Larry Norman
His motivation for doing the documentaries don’t fir the criteria
OK…I’ll shut up now
Bob:
What he taught is not my position. Whay you and many imply is Jesus would be some radical hippy type person. Scripture and history shows us He was very Jewish and a very Galilean Rabbi. He not only held the Law and the Oral traditions completely He knew them better than the Pharisees themselves.
Frisbee, Norman, Bently and most if not all of us would not hold a candle to the type of knowledge and respect Jesus had. Let’s face it the Man was perfect.
Oh well there is nothing to win here of point to prove. Additionally yes I think most people are mad at the church, something Sabatino does not hold any rights to.
Come on Steve, you’re on a roll.
Bob,
“If the Jesus that I love and serve were anything like the Jesus I read about and hear preached about by some, I would run from Him not to Him.”
I would agree to that Bob, but the broad brush that is used to paint Christianity as a whole does a great disservice to those that preach the Jesus of the Bible.
I never discount the angry/hurt people, because I am one too.
Yes, I know it’s hard to beleive, but I HATE the way the name of Christ is peddled by some.
But it is not all. That was my objection to the broad brush. It is not a straw man, it has meat on the bones. I just get kind of tired sometimes of everyone beating down the church. THose of us that pursue the things of God with reverence and fear tilt against windmills every day. ANd all you usually hear about are the bad guys.
Not tooting my proverbial horn here BTW, just pointing out that sometimes even in Christian circles bad news sells better than the Good News.
I’m not saying Jesus would be some radical hippy! I’m not talking about when Jesus returns again for His church. I’m speaking hypothetically…….If He preached the same message today as He did 2000+ years ago, it would be the legalistic Christians who would reject Him. That’s my opinion!
Hoppy…posts overlapped. I prefer to consider myself indignant rather than p.o.-ed, and I’ve learned to be entertained by the foibles of my fellow followers & celebrate my own. One can’t live the other way without getting headaches, heartburn, or hemorrhoids.
It does sound as though DDS began his work on the LN project well before Norman’s death.
TonyP
Based on what I know of you, I would not place you in the same crowd.
Bob:
OK I missed what you said since my discussion was about what Sabatino brought and what I thought you said.
I do have one question, maybe it’s more than one, what did Jesus preach which would be rejected today?
Michael…great interview, and that’s all I’m gonna say!
Personally I believe no one here would listen to Jesus if He came today. Why? Because He was (would be) born a Jew!
I tooted my horn once…it wasn’t proverbial, more like apocalyptic.
fil,
:lol
You got me…..
Drew
Grace
Drew—
Are you saying we’re anti-semitic?
If DDS is off the mark then God will use his own creative means to discipline His child and bring Him into conformity with the image of Christ.
I may not agree with DDS every tactic, motivation or attitude; but God allows us to deal with issues from different angles and perspectives and holds us accountable for our words.
At least DDS Words are out in the open and he is willing to own them.
free press for the state and church vic,
vic,
Whose words are not?
Linnea:
In a way yes. We seem to think a modern Jesus would come to a Christian church (kind of ironic since there wouldn’t be a Christian church). If this was the year Jesus began to preach his message it would be only to Jews and we would be the Romans or Greeks. The best we would/could be is “God Fearing Gentiles.”
But yes I believe the Christian church in general is somewhat anti-semitic at heart. It’s part of the Christian church’s history, just the facts.
TonyP: DDS was/is addressing the issue when the people of God under the cloak of the institutional church are not forthcoming with truth because they claim or fear it will hurt the cause of Christ when it actually may help His people.
That is my take.
DDS claims that his story is about several people who were deeply hurt and slandered who were able to forgive without any validation or repentance on the part of the perpetrator of their hurt.
Let’s watch the documentary and see if that is true or not.
Vic
Let’s not watch the video if we have to pay to do it.
His is nothing short of tabloid Christianity. He’ll just keep barfing this crap out as long as there is $ in it. Seems hypocritical to me that we would be attracted to this kind of stuff. On one hand we want the Christians to at the least act differently than the culture we live in yet we won’t put our foot own and say we will not be party to stuff like this that exposes our brothers.
Ham saw the nakedness of his father and ws ready to expose it. Shem and Japheth wouldn’t even look at their father in that state and backed in to the tent with a blanket and covered him.
Norman may have been wrong in many of his practices but we as Christ’s followers are called to be different. Rather than expose like DDS, I choose to come along side brothers while they are alive and work to help and correct.
BTW
I have no personal interest in Larry Norman. I didn’t even like his music
“Those that say they follow this man Jesus, they above all people should be honest, even if it is difficult, even if it hurts in the telling.” DD
Well, glad he said that!
“First, I am not sure what the word “Christian” even means anymore. The word has been so abused by people claiming to be one…”
Wow. What a great interview.
This is the homegrown internet in action, at its finest.
Congratulations to Michael and David.
Superb job, guys, really.
Steve, to be honest I have not watched the video on Frisbee and am not going to rush out and watch the deal on Norman either. Maybe I can just bum them off of Rolph.
My point. If we want to accuse DDS as a hack opportunist without regard for virtue; then let’s test his stated theme of the documentary and see if it measures up. Besides DDS is canadian and one of primary pursuits in life is to give Yanks a hard time. Just kiddin. That’s for you DDS.
Noah’s incident with drunkenness and shameful action was a one time occurrence, not a repeated pattern of unrepentant disregard for other people in the body of Christ.
I am all for engaging brothers and sisters in dealing with issues in this life but many do not share that mindset or course of action.
Be careful of the assumption that DDS is actually revealing “truth.”
I knew Lonnie and Larry quite well. Lonnie more than Larry. Larry is a story because he struggled with his giftedness and tendency to be a complete jerk to everyone he knew. He was very self-destructive. Easy story. On the other hand the story of Lonnie requires a discussion of the Holy Spirit. His work, power, manifestations and relationship to true revival. Lonnie’s name was associated with the movement of the Holy Spirit. DDS not only never met Frisbee or ministered with him, he does not have the biblical literacy to engage in a discussion about the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Am I judging DDS? Absolutely, I’m judging his art, its relationship to reality and I’m not confused about whether I follow Jesus or not.
Good discussion today!
Waiting for Rolph to weigh in.
End of Argument!!!!
Pastor Pastor said it all. Amen!
Hopkins,
Good point!
I thought that the interview was pretty good and did what an interview should do - the interviewee answered the questions.
I thought that he was pretty straight forward as to his views and purposes for making the documentaries.
It’s funny, I came to Christ in 1981 at Greg Laurie’s church and had never heard of Lonnie Frisbee before the talk of the documentary - and come to find out that Frisbee was Laurie’s mentor.
To this day I don’t think I have ever heard a Larry Norman song (if I have I was unaware that it was him.
I did see the Chuck Smith documentary - that was hard hitting.
“You have your favorites and as long as everyone lines up with them, they are okay. If not… too bad, so sad, thanks for playing. Now depart, ye cursed…
That’s a tough room. DD
David,
Not having much association with either Lonnie or Larry from either a public or personal standpoint, you certainly have caught my interest regarding their lives, how they interacted with the church and how the church has interacted with them.
I have always appreciated your participation here, the insight and challenges you bring on many fronts, especially the light in which you present these two personalities in all their mystery, glory and difficulties.
For a person who likes to see brutal honesty, and considers it essential to those who follow Christ, Im surprised you are not giving this site more credit…. and Michael:
PP can and likely will continue to be a tough room,
However, Michael has proven to be a most gracious host,
willing more than anyone I have ever met,
to allow and work through the most trying of topics,
allowing people to speak honestly ( if they so choose to do)
for the growth and health of the body of Christ,
My experience and opinion on this (small and insignificant as it is)
simply comes from over 3 years of solid participation here.
it has been a rare occasion for him, or anyone else for that matter to say…”depart”. Yet even with that being the exceptional case , there has always been a door left open for their return.
Most people leave on their own because they got P.O’d or felt it wasnt worth their time or effort….
Anyone willing to stick around, work things through, make the investment into this community, have been welcome to do so, even if there is striking disagreement at times.
However, I must say that I am looking forward to the expose on Evie.
MLD
too funny
MLD,
Now that is hilarious. Word Records pixie doll. They got so mad at her when she grew up and got married. She ruined their marketing plans by actually becoming an adult.
This was a very interesting interview. However, I have a problem with his answer on his faith.
When a Christian is asked about their faith, why would he/she dance around the issue?
Yes, I agree there are things in “fundamental” Christianity I don’t want to be associated with and some Pentacostal branches I don’t want to be a part of, however, I don’t care if you are CC, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Orthodox or ???. If you are a Christian.. a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, why couldn’t you just point to a scripture as to what the plumb line of your faith is. For example:
Rom 10: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I have a problem with his “answer” on his faith. Because of this, I would not spend any money that would go into his pocket on this project.
Pastor,Pastor,
She grew up? She’s an adult? She’s not 15 still? Hmm, now I’m upset!
Just my two cents here…
The only person who profits here is DDS. Nobody else does.
Why go back and stick your hand in the septic tank of someone’s sin and dysfunction. Im’ dysfunctional. You’re dysfunctional. Larry Norman was dysfunctional. Why focus on the the minutia of “dysfunctional?” Why go back to someones vomit and pick it apart?
There is a time to move on and I believe that time is now, because time is short. As a believer I have more important things to focus on.
I was a huge fan of Norman and Stonehill, D.A.. As a teenager with no role models in my life, I was influenced by them and others. The Lord used their respective gifts despite all of their shortcomings and flaws. I appreciate their music for what is was and I choose to just let the past be the past. I choose to see Larry as Jesus does.
I seriously doubt people will come to Christ through this documentary. If it doesn’t build up, strenghten and edify, then I chosse to leave it alone.
This is my favorite part of the whole interview. Agree 110%. It’s a problem not only in the arts in church, but also for much of what goes on in churches in general.
“If you ask me why I think so much artistic creation from the church falls flat, I would say that it isn’t honest. There is something in being brutally honest that is compelling”
Good job on this guys.
Nonnie,
“This was a very interesting interview. However, I have a problem with his answer on his faith.
When a Christian is asked about their faith, why would he/she dance around the issue?”
I think I can answer that. In a Christian to Christian conversation, if I were asked “are you a Christian?”, I would look to motive of the question and therefore I may dance around a little to not be cornered in to some legalitist’s trap.
Asked the same question by an unbeliever, I would give a more direct and confident answer.
Nonnie,
glad you brought that up…
I was wondering about the ambiguity as well.
How would that line up with Jesus’ proclamation,
“32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
Is there a middle road in ambiguity?
Lute- nope, you’re not alone.
Matthew 10:32-33
and Luke 12:8-9
MLD: Are you a Christian? Is this a Christian to Christian conversation?
Good answer. Sometimes you gotta dance in order not to be taken down by “friendly fire”.
I thought the point of his “dancing around” was that he wasn’t going to give satisifaction to the accusations of him being a hater of God or the gospel or whatever the question said. too lazy to scroll up to find out…
why would you put more fuel for the fire out there if you’ve been burned once already? Don’t blame him one bit.
Jeff,
Whether we like it or not much of contemporary history will be recorded by profiteers and paparazzi. What I appreciate about an interview like this is that we get to read, decide and respond.
Your response is filled with wisdom.
Nonnie,
I was challenged by what you had to say as well.
I like the tension of learning in this conversation. .
Me too, Vic
I do, however, wish we could stick to the content of the interview, rather than speculating about motive of heart.
This thread reminds me of what Kathryn Kuhlman said to Jamie Buckingham concerning his then-forthcoming biography of her.
She told him to tell the whole truth just as it happened.
And there was certainly some severe unpleasantness.
That is one thing I respect about Christianity.
It’s all hidden under the blood, and it is all in the light at the same time.
Thank you, Jesus.
I believe Dave Rolph made the statement a few moths back that DD was a Christian. If I’m wrong, then put it on the list of other things that I have said that were wrong.
Jones - You better be praying for me!
I knew Lonnie and Larry both quite well. I have seen both documentaries, but didn’t pay for either one. There were things in both that I disagreed with, but I thought they were mostly fair. Nothing in either story caused me to love either man less. There is nothing in either story that diminishes how special both of these guys were. In my opinion much more damage is done by people who want to propagate the bigger than life myths of our heroes, rather than those who expose their flaws, regardless of motivation. The Gospel ought to free us from the threat of the truth about us. Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. That is the truth. And we will begin to understand the Gospel when we begin to rejoice in our thorns in the flesh, because of the fact that His strength is perfected in our weakness. I am ashamed that the church forces people to pretend so much, and to fear the revelation of who we really are apart from the grace of God.
Pastor, Pastor:
..requires a discussion of the Holy Spirit. His work, power, manifestations and relationship to true revival. Lonnie’s name was associated with the movement of the Holy Spirit.”
A sincere question. How would you approach and discuss what could be learned from the recent past from a pastoral perspective in order to respond to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with in the midst of another revival; should God choose to revive what He began in terms of the recent revival I speak of?
Not saying that God is not continuing this work, but what if He brought the extra ordinary manifestations and accompanying fruit again?
I know that could be another thread or even book, but thought I would ask while you are around.
It would be sweet to see an expose on Stryper and the yellow & black lycra they had painted on their bodies!
DDS, are they in the docket?
Sorry, my intent was to take Lonnies name completely out of the post to ask my question about recent revival.
Pastor, Pastor
I love the dialogue here. It sharpens me and allows me to see how other folks process and think.
On any given day, my opinions and thoughts change, depending if my team won the day before.
I guess I am just weary of all the time, energy, attention spent on things that we can never change or altar.
Philippians 4:8 ” Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy–meditate on these things.”
I understand we come from different perspectives of our “Christian” walk with Jesus, but I don’t see how using the Holy Scriptures would not unite us in answering a question, regardless of the motives or background of the person asking the question. Regardless if the person asking were a believer or unbeliever.
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
It is the person of Christ that unites us. Not our dogmas, our churches, our dispensations, but Him. We know Him through His Word. To me is seems so simple. But maybe I am too simple.
“She told him to tell the whole truth just as it happened…
And there was certainly some severe unpleasantness.
…It’s all hidden under the blood, and it is all in the light at the same time.” Frinn La Skip
“imo much more damage is done by people who want to propagate the bigger than life myths of our heroes, rather than those who expose their flaws, regardless of motivation. The Gospel ought to free us from the threat of the truth about us. Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. That is the truth. And we will begin to understand the Gospel when we begin to rejoice in our thorns in the flesh, because of the fact that His strength is perfected in our weakness. I am ashamed that the church forces people to pretend so much, and to fear the revelation of who we really are apart from the grace of God. Dave Rolph
Dave,
Would that also help us a Christians breathe easier,
Knowing that if ever our faults were to be known/exposed,
and yet we have the confidence that as we have confessed and repented,
We are indeed cleansed and washed and covered by the blood of Christ,
showing all the more the glory and greatness, mercifulness and justice of the God we love?
Sister:
“For a person who likes to see brutal honesty, and considers it essential to those who follow Christ, Im surprised you are not giving this site more credit…. and Michael:
PP can and likely will continue to be a tough room,
However, Michael has proven to be a most gracious host,
willing more than anyone I have ever met,”
Good comment!
Dave R said, “I am ashamed that the church forces people to pretend so much, and to fear the revelation of who we really are apart from the grace of God.” Thanks Dave!
Thanks Micahel and DDS for the interview.
I know that my heroes had flaws, but I also want to know how they dealt with them and (hopefully) overcame them.
Nonnie: You are foundationally simple in the right way with that Scripture.
DDS…go after Sandy Patti next! Fundies are suckers for songs that end with a soprano flourish!
Sister,
Exactly. We don’t trust the blood of Jesus, or the fact that salvation is indeed an act of grace. We are afraid that if we teach and believe the truth it will lead us to sin more. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I understand grace, and the pressure is really off, it leads me to such a wonderful gratitude, and the response is a much easier and more willing obedience. Pretending is killing us. Satan is still the father of lies.
Ain’t nobody going after Stryper while I have something to say about it.
I came to the Lord through reading some of Michael Sweet’s lyrics.
But I am sure someone has already “exposed” them.
Rolf,
How much easier it would be to be ourselves, honest with our faults, struggles, even our dreams and desires IF others were too…but the pretending or suspicion, or fear, or distrust hamstrings our fledgling efforts. You are right about grace, yet grace needs to be extended person to person, not only from Father to sons/daughters.
Dave R:
You sound like a Calvinist!
Dave R. - Not intended to be an insult.
And for you Stryper fans. I think the band was an excuse for Christians to wear spandex and let their hair grow out (men).
Papias:
when you write. I would agree:
“I know that my heroes had flaws, but I also want to know how they dealt with them and (hopefully) overcame them.”
Not having any heroes per se, But certainly with those who are sitting before us as guides and role models,
Because this is the glory and the hope of the gospel message isnt it?
Isnt that partly how discipleship works?
Filbertz,
You are correct. We make it unsafe to be honest. God doesn’t. It is ironic that some people here feel that it isn’t right to bring up someone’s sins after they are dead. And yet, it sure isn’t safe to bring it up while you are alive. So when does the truth come out? I look on some of these so-called “exposes” like an autopsy. There are things that aren’t safe to do on a living person, so we do them on cadavers, hopefully learning something that will help the living. There will always be those who prefer the bliss of ignorance.
Most of my thoughts have already been trumpeted…
I love the self-righteousness indignation.
Lord Thank You that I am not as DD Dread
I hereby donate my life to science. Please be gentle with me while I am alive, but feel free to pick my life apart all you want after I’m gone. I hope you can dig something up that will help someone understand a little bit more about the wonderful grace of Jesus in the process.
Dave’s on a roll today…
“Make mine a kaiser roll, please.”
Kaiser Soze Papias
Michael, excellent interview.
And props to DiSabatino for honestly and throughly answering each question.
DAve
I am thankful for the blood of Christ and am totally confident it covers all sins. It’s the frenzy of his people to flock to this stuff that bothers me. If we condone it this type of activity saying “it’s all under the blood” where will this tabloid style of Christianity stop and what are the boundaries? Is any thing off limits?
SC,
I got just done with a book by Martyn Lloyd-Jones - “Great Doctrines of the Bible”.
And while I would never presume to argue with the good Doctor, I did find some of his logic and approach to interpretation…wanting. And I say this with the utmost respect…he didn’t convince me of the Reformed view of Eschatology.
Vic,
I’ll give a shot. What both Smith and Wimber had in common is how they chose to deal with the “manifestations” that accompanied Lonnie’s ministry. In early CC history the shaking, slain in the Spirit and speaking in tongues were explained in the then accepted doctrine of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit.” That was basic Pentecostal theology and was never frowned upon in early CC. After some relationship with Kuhlman’s ministry and Lonnie’s departure the “slaying” manifestation grew more prevalent at CCCM. That is where Chuck chose to draw the line while continuing to encourage laying on hands and healing.
Fast forward to Wimber while still a CC in Yorba Linda. Lonnie preaches on a Sunday night for JW and the manifestations show up. People laying on the floor speaking in tongues, shaking and prophecying. JW was mortified but curious. After speaking to many who assured him that this was the stuff that the Jesus Movement was made of he pursued the manifestations as a function of “Signs and Wonders” and sought to normalize the practice within the church and seminars. JW became a Vineyard and with no place to draw the line the behavior got crazier and more outrageous. That’s when “prophetic” behavior like barking and running around the room acting like an eagle and other nonsense became normative. Wimber finally tried to “draw the line” at the foot of the Airport Vineyard in Toronto but it was too late. The crazier the meetings the more it was associated with revival, the HS and the presence of God, the door was open for distortion and a repeat 20 years later with TB. As you know people are very divided over what revival means. I know this, that in it’s purest form the presence of God leads to true salvation and empowering and I would love to see the real deal again.
Papias,
was your 11:04 addressed to me?
You might have to expand you comment a little more if it was…
thanks
Steve,
I respect your perspective immensely but I don’t see this as being tabloid journalism at all. I see it as bringing up some really profound issues. But even if I were to concede that DDS has sinister motives (which I decidedly don’t) I still see a huge lesson here. Lonnie, Larry, and all of us, are forced to play a game that is rendered unnecessary by the cross of Christ. The fact that we are shocked and disturbed by revelations that should have been obvious to us reveals our own discomfort with the truth. This is why Paul self-identified as a chief of sinners. We don’t have to hide any more. We don’t have to pretend. That is a glorious truth, and our sin provides the perfect backdrop for the majesty of the grace of God. And we will finally understand this truth when our response to accusations of our sinfulness is met with the proper response, which is “so what?”
Sister Christian,
Yes, my 11:04 was addresses to you as a reply to my earlier comments. Sorry if I sometimes come off as trite: its me trying to multitask.
My point before was that people we respect and hold in high regard are not infallible.
My point with bringing up the book by the Doctor was this: I wanted a good understanding of where he was coming from on Eschatology, but I didn’t get it from what I read. I was disappointed by his rational for interpreting Scriptures away.
IMO it is a decided lack of honesty that has damaged more than one pastor’s walk. If I am honest with myself, I stand in a pulpit by God’s grace alone. Jesus is the reason I am there, preaching the gospel. When I start to overlook my faults/sins, believe the hype, and feel better about myself (ala the Pharisee and the tax collector) I am in serious danger. Once I feel I deserve it, I deserve to lose it. IMNSHO.
Luke 18
11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
Seeing the fact that others, which to some are heroes/idols, have sinned brings comfort to those same people. They are given hope that even these giants of faith had sin, so maybe, just maybe, God will still love them in spite of theirs. Maybe they can still do work for the kingdom.
Peter’s rebukes by Jesus, his denial of Christ, these were placed in scripture for all the world to see. It gives us a lesson of hope to know that Peter came out the other side. Seeing the sins of those we revere should not necessarily detract from their influence. It should be a reminder of God’s ability to use the foolish things to accomplish His will.
Dave,
Your 11:15 says it all and reflects what W. Paul Young said a few weeks ago……”I have no secrets.”
Pastor, Pastor. Thank you very much. I will join you in hopeful, longing, expectant prayer for the real deal. You seem to express the strong desire present in the heart and vision of an evangelist; I can resonate with that.
Perhaps we can be the seasoned and hopefully broken(speaking of me) pastors who are ready to be entrusted with the care of those purchased with His blood and regenerated by His Spirit.
Dave Rolph has pretty much said all I have to say today…or ever.
Unfortunately, I’ll keep talking but I hope that message never leaves my lips.
Great stuff today Dave.
Dave Rolph said:
” When I understand grace, and the pressure is really off, it leads me to such a wonderful gratitude, and the response is a much easier and more willing obedience. Pretending is killing us. Satan is still the father of lies.”
Amen, I totally agree.
Has anyone seen the move “The Apostle” Written, directed and acted by Roberb Duvall. One of my favourite movies. A story of God’s abundant grace in a scoundrel’s life.
If you haven’t seen it, rent it or buy it. It is a beautiful picture of God’s grace, but not easy to watch.
P squared -
That idea of “I have no secrets” can be incredibly powerful when viewed from the outside. If you ever run into someone who’s totally screwed up pretty much everything that churches usually say matters, and they are willing to just admit that with no defensiveness or excuse making at all…it’ll make your head spin.
well…maybe not your head…but it has made mine spin
oops, make that Robert Duvall.
“I still see a huge lesson here. Lonnie, Larry, and all of us, are forced to play a game that is rendered unnecessary by the cross of Christ. ”
and such is the case…… I am saddened by the realization that we live in a day where much grace is requested for self, and very little is apportioned to others. And as i was reminded yesterday, people really don’t know the whole story.
Papias: Not sure what part of MLJ doctrines you were reading. But I remember reading a portion on eschatology not too long ago.
As best as MLJ tried like all of us to parse the Scriptures and compare with other theologian’s parsings and summaries. . he was also reacting to shallow representations of how other doctrinal viewpoints had in impacting the attitude and actions of their proponents.
My point. He was trying to respond as best as he could to the Word while reacting to the men around him, just like all of us.
Nonnie,
Just the mention of that movie brought tears to my eyes. Powerful parable.
I thought that Duvall’s ‘The Apostle’ was the ‘I’ of Romans 7 put on film.
vic: I know. The series GDotB is not his last and only statement. And MLJ is not the only voice of Reformed E.
But as Johnny Mac said, “Reformed people have good theology when it comes to salvation, but not so good when it comes to E.”
Remember, this is all in the context of being “somewhat disappointed” by those we esteem. I am not using this as a soapbox.
On the other hand, Facebook continues to being very interesting…
Nonnie, been quite awhile since I saw the movie. It was reported that the filming of certain scenes brought actual people who were watching the filming to faith in Christ.
Michael,
So, can I leave now?
Seriously, this was a great discussion. I need to bail now to go work out and then I’m visiting George Sabolick, but I’ll catch up later.
By the way, I have spent quite a bit of time interacting with dds and I believe he is a Christian. He likes to mess with people when he thinks they are testing him. (Kind of like Jesus and Bob Dylan, two of my heroes.) David is a lot like our own dear Skip Franklin. They both enjoy pulling peoples’ chain and they are amused when we react in a predictable way. They both annoy me; never more than when they are right.
I am blessed to hear so many of you like that film as well. I have loaned it to people and some have returned it to me with a “deer in the headlights” look.
I am so profoundly grateful for God’s grace in my life and I am amazed each time He gives me the opportunity to share His love with others or encourage a wounded believer.
Without seeing the Larry Norman DVD, I am guessing it makes him out to be a scoundrel as well, but I do hope it points to the cross of Calvary and the never ending mercy and grace of God in a man or woman’s life. I do hope that the glory of God’ grace and forgiveness found in Christ is the ultimate message of the DVD.
Nonnie. Are you talking about loaning it to people in the UK? The Apostle portrays brash American culture and Christianity at it’s best and worst.
Vic, Yes you are correct. Loaned to folks here in the UK. Maybe it is the culture that threw them off rather than the theology of grace. Thanks for the insight.
I guess I figured if they could understand and accept me, they could understand The Apostle.
I suppose if we got in touch with our ‘inner scoundrel’ we’d be more approachable…
nixon/fil
David, if you’re reading this, a question - why not put the Frisbee and Norman documentaries on iTunes for download or rental? I can’t be the only person who prefers immediate download of a digital version of a movie (or documentary) I can watch on my laptop or iDevice over ordering a DVD, waiting for its arrival, and having to put the disc in my computer or DVD player to watch it.
Fil,
Your “inner scoundrel” and my “wretched man that I am” could have some great fellowship together. We could invite Dread’s “damned but forgiven” and Michael’s “hopeless but heaven bound” and turn it into Matthew’s party. We could break out the old “Chief of Sinner’s” writings and revel in grace.
Pastor, Pastor, My hubby and I will bring the Apostle DVD and popcorn!
PX2,
We’ll have Fil bring the food and I’ll bring the beverages…
Great stuff you shared today, my friend…
BrianD,
Excellent question…
Michael, I’d be all over it if I could download it off iTunes.
Part 3 of my series on Christianese:
http://briandblog.com/?p=396
Everyone, I ask that you just take a few minutes of your time and read it, and just be fair, and just comment if you want, and just…
Nonnie,
That’s right we can’t forget to invite the sisters.
Hmmmm…. Stryper does have a new album coming out this year. What I’ve heard sounds good. A bit of personal trivia…. I bought “The Yellow and Black Attack” and Slayer’s “Haunting the Chapel” the same day…. ON VINYL!!!!
Papias, it was a combination of Vengeance Rising and Guardian for me. Vengeance scared me and got me thinking and going to church.
I met Guardian on their first tour, they were staying with a family I knew. At a big get together the original singer (Paul?) introduced himself and asked me if I was a Christian. Well, I was going to church so I said “yes”. Then he asked me “why?” I was stumped and not long after that Jesus got a hold of me forever.
Anyhow… not much to say about Stryper. It is well known bassist Tim Gaines had to quit touring with them because he got sucked into the rock-n-roll lifestyle. They allowed him to record with them, but took a session guy out on the road.
Now…. Roger Martinez would make an interesting story. Going from being one of boldest frontmen I’ve ever seen to spewing utter blasphemy.
“I have believed for years that if Jesus were to walk on the earth again, it would be Christians that would nail Him to the cross once again.”
Bob Sweat
7:23 am
You’re absolutely right…and we’d be sooo sure we were right and He was wrong…and we’d have 5 theological points and maybe even a few youtube videos to back us up.
Or 7 or 8 theological points…several…
10. 10 Drew Jan 26th, 2009 at 7:35 am Bob: Don’t like that argument even though there may be some truth to it. Why? Because we paint the picture that He, Jesus, may look like a Bently or a Frisbee to us. The truth is Jesus looked like a respected Jewish Rabbi
… If this (respect young Rabbi) is the model how then would Jesus look today? ”
With all due respect,
Jesus was all THAT respectful…letting adultresses go, overturning tables, making and using a whip, spitting, calling religious leaders “white-washed tombs” and “sons of the devil”…
Brian D:
You’ll be holding your breath for quite some time with iTunes.
I’ve had a deal in place with them for my companies MMA and BJJ catalog for about 2 years and they’ve yet to do anything…. besides fight with the major studios over pricing and leaving us little guys waiting.
I highly predict the Tito Ortiz / Ken Shamrock documentary alone would sell VERY well for us.
Pray for wisdom at iTunes.
I’m not taking potshots at the church, I’m realll slow making accusations against men of God.
(Which makes me a little difference between me and Sr. DiSabbatino, it seems)
Eric Hoffman said “Roger Martinez would make an interesting story. Going from being one of boldest frontmen I’ve ever seen to spewing utter blasphemy.”
I would agree that Roger M would be good.
How about Gary Lenaire from Tourniquet?
From Wikipedia “As evidenced by his recent writings, Lenaire has turned away from the Christian faith. He has written various essays dealing with topics such as philosophy, science, religion and skepticism, however, Lenaire does not consider himself an atheist. Lenaire’s philosophical position is Naturalism. A book by Lenaire, “An Infidel Manifesto: Why Sincere Believers Lose Faith”, was released in October 2006″
How about Gustauv who played accordion for the first group to play “A Mighty Fortress.” back in Luther’s day - a mighty fall
James T Kirk,
In all honesty if Jesus came with the same radical and revolutionary message aimed at the Evangelical Pharisee’s of today I’d follow him all over again. I’d probably be another loud mouth Peter but I would stumble after Him. If He came and condemned today’s legalistic pretenders that serve up more shame and guilt than grace and transformation, I’d put my boat and pole in storage and go fish for men with Him like there was no tomorrow.
Papias:
That was sad too. But Roger just completely flipped. Reading the “Satanic Bible” would be like reading “Bambi” compared to the vile Roger is spewing.
As a young dude, I was inspired by Roger. He was just so bold. My final band even recorded a cover of “Burn” for the second demo we did.
MLD:
Nothing should ever be made about an accordian player…. EVER!!!!
I dunno…looks like this accordian player could definitely play some guys under the pavement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVbuIZ-5-8o
Michael,
Good interview! I like David D. because he’s a real person, creative, audacious in his quests and never boring.
Pastor, Pastor,
I wonder if we know each other. I was at CC Yorba Linda during that time, Sunday nights up in the bleachers. Email me if we are old acquaintances, if you don’t mind.
pastorbillwalden@gmail.com
Warning: if you reveal your true identity, I’ll rat you out.
Good interview Michael.
Was it just me or was DDS’s answer in regard to his faith kind of weird?
I understand his reticence to use the word “Christian” it can mean different things in different contexts…but he never answered the question.
huh…
I hope that any dirt that comes forth either during or after my life is agreed to by my wife.
She and my kids would be affected. So, if I become incredibly famous, anointed, and am used of God to start a revival, if DDS or anyone else wants to do a documentary on me and my dirt, please check with my wife and kids first.
If you don’t, I will posthumously get you via Raul Ries.
Pastor, Pastor….
You said “DDS not only never met Frisbee or ministered with him, he does not have the biblical literacy to engage in a discussion about the doctrine of the Holy Spirit.”
I know Dave personally. How did we meet? We both graduated from the same Pentecostal Bible College. So I know that DDS has the ‘biblical literacy’ necessary to engage in a discussion about the Holy Spirit.
Tim:
A new commandment….
“Thou shall not steal ones thunder while ribbing with MLD”
Uhm… thanks!
I am a little disturbed at all of the folks that are so disappointed (PO’d) with the church. That is like being disappointed with another man’s wife isn’t it? The Lord loves his bride, and I am glad for that. I don’t respect DD for skirting the issue of his own faith,… man up and answer that question. “I’m not even sure what a Christian is anymore?” That is a chicken liver response from a guy claiming to be a teller of the truth. No respect from me. As far as the integrity of the docs, I don’t know either man, and both are with the Lord, I think it’s His business, we are just sick voyeurs.
do…not…post…what..you…are…thinking…right…now…london…just…go…away…and…have…a…cookie…..
I have absolutely NO interest in this thread or DD videos.
Does that make me shallow and uncaring?
James T.
“With all due respect,
Jesus was all THAT respectful…letting adultresses go, overturning tables, making and using a whip, spitting, calling religious leaders “white-washed tombs” and “sons of the devil”…”
With all due respect if you go back and read the text you will see he turned over the tables of men who sold junk to His fellow Jews to sacrifice with, He let adulterous women (and the man who never stepped forward) go after they were told to sin no more. With all due respect go back and see why these men were called whitewashed and sons of devils.
Jesus was call a Rabbi because His teaching had authority and Jesus was respected enough to be able to sit and teach scripture with interpretation at whatever Synagogue He visited.
With all due respect.
I could be wrong but the Jesus of scripture was nothing like the Frisbee of the past or the Bentley of the present and any comparison, when looked at closely, will demonstrate the width of the chasm.
I sorry get fired up when men are compared and attempts are made to bring them up to Jesus (or maybe bring Jesus down).
I just don’t understand the ambiguity. I understand being disillusioned with the Church…but often what we hate about the Church is what we hate about ourselves. We are the Church, you can’t distance yourself from yourself.
But back to the ambiguity…you can’t answer a question about your faith with vague ramblings about what you don’t like about the Church and then say “only people in my life can answer that question.”
That sounds like pragmatism…if it works then it’s real.
I love the Church. I have never understood when people say that they hate the Church or they are mad at the Church.
Don’t they really mean a church or a pastor or some leadership team?
I love the Church and I think that the Church is alive and well on planet earth! I think that the Church is just as strong and dynamic as it was on the day of Pentecost.
So what are people bitchin’ about?
MLD! You and Jesus agree!
I have had some conversations with David concerning this subject. He is addressing the “institutionalized” Church. This can and often does get in the way of the real Church.
There is a distinction between the visible church (all those professing Christ), and the invisible church (all those known by God).
That should read “all those known by God to be His.”
Drew,
First, ***I*** did not bring up Bentley or Frisbee and compare Jesus to them.
I DO look at the context of Jesus’ statements and actions…and also see that they mattered little to the religious leaders of His day, they missed the truths found in scripture, they misunderstood His actions and words, and the leaders of those synagogues you mentioned kicked those He healed out and eventually said “let His blood be on our hands and on our childrens’ heads.”
Jesus was not CONSIDERED either respected nor respectFUL to the religious leaders in His day from beginning to end.
I AM NOT dragging Bentley or Frisbee into the comparisons with Jesus.
Jesus’ revolutionary and often offensive actions and words were and are worthy of discussion alone.
AB,
“He is addressing the “institutionalized” Church.”
I understand the difference between the visible and invisible church. Can you give an example of the institutionalized church?
Has anyone mentioned the latest news about Ted Haggard? I don’t have time to look at comments through the different threads, but wanted to be sure Michael had a heads up. I feel like I”m going to throw up.
Hi Shannon! You have been missed !
Shannon,
We’ll talk about the latest tomorrow.
You are missed, my friend.
Ah,.. back to Ted. That will be refreshing.
Jesus also showed AMAZING compassion, not always to who the religious leaders, shoot even Jews in general, would show compassion to.
WHO would be the modern equivalent of the good SAMARITAN?!?!
An Al Queda member?
An abortionist?
A transexual?
An AIDS activist?
Rick Warren? (For kingdomwatcher and other ODM’s lurking here)
(BTW,
I do not have an axe to grind against the church)
As much as I seek Jesus, sense His presence, I wonder how easy it would be to miss Him in the flesh. Only one male disciple was listed at the foot of the cross.
How easily to I get pissed at someone from a different Christian tradition, and would Jesus “push my buttons” like He did so many others?
If you don’t want to hear it from me, ask Bob Sweat.
Either way, don’t let yourself and those you love off the hook too easily in this mental exercise…
MLD,
You’ll have to take that up with David if he decides to respond here at all.
Institutionalized was his word used in conversation with me. I feel uncomfortable defining that for him as I didn’t press him for an explanation.
I just felt the conversation here was implying that David is anti-church, when that isn’t the impression I got from him at all.
I do see him being “anti” the things he sees wrong.
Michael,
I can’t tell you how much this Haggard thing makes me want to make a visit to reporters in my town where my abuse/misconduct happened. I am praising the Lord that the news is referring to the relationship as abuse, even though he was over 18. Because that is what it is. But wow, amazing how the church I was at never offered me a dime for my silence. Makes me want to speak out loud and clear.
I am P*SSED!!!
I’m applying for a job tomorrow in person, so that will take much of my day, but I’ll try to be on as much as I can.
Love you, thanks for missing me, sorry I’ve been gone lately. Lots of stresses going on here.
I’m going to have myself a glass of wine and watch The Bachelor now….
Love, Shannon
James T.
“the leaders of those synagogues you mentioned kicked those He healed out and eventually said “let His blood be on our hands and on our childrens’ heads.”
What you are referring to is in Jerusalem and by this time they were looking for any chance to have Him killed. They wanted Him killed, not beacuse He healed but because He held Himself up with God and this was blasphemy to them!
John 9:34 “and they put him out.” Speaking of the whose eyes were healed. To put a man out of the Synagogue was very serious, it amounted to total exclusion form his people. Sad isn’t it he went from blind in the eyes to being put out by men blind to Jesus.
Jesus’ answer, “For judgement I came into this world, that those who do not see may see; and that those who see may become blind.”
You got to keep it in context!
It sure sounded like you and others continue to compare every radical wacko, who eventually falls when his humanity and sin is discovered, with Jesus.
Jesus came to die! That is the context!
His miracles confirmed His authority and ability to die for our sins!
Pastor Pastor:
“In all honesty if Jesus came with the same radical and revolutionary message aimed at the Evangelical Pharisee’s of today I’d follow him all over again. I’d probably be another loud mouth Peter but I would stumble after Him. If He came and condemned today’s legalistic pretenders that serve up more shame and guilt than grace and transformation, I’d put my boat and pole in storage and go fish for men with Him like there was no tomorrow.”
So why aren’t you doing it today. Jesus is alive and well, has left us His words, both OT and NT, and calling you to do just what you stated above!
This talk of “if Jesus came today I would…” drives me nuts. We have no excuses to not be radical and on the move with Him right now!
It’s OK to tell me to calm down.
This conversation reminds me of this old John Michael Talbot song, Would You Crucify Him?
Sometimes in the cool of the evening
The truth comes like a lover through the wind
Sometimes though my thoughts have gone misleading
She’ll ask that same old question once again
(Chorus)
Would you crucify him?
Would you crucify him?
My old friends
But would you crucify him?
I’m talking ’bout the sweet Lord Jesus
If he’d stand right here among you once again
She’s asking how many times
Will you look down to the harlot
Looking through her tears pretending you don’t know
But you were once just like her
How can you be now so self-righteous
When in the name of the Lord you throw the first stone
(Chorus)
So now I turn to you
Through your years of your robes and your stained-glass windows
And do you vainly echo your prayers say your pleasing the Lord
Profess the marriage with your tongue
But your mind dreams like the harlot
And if the judge looks to your thoughts can’t you guess your reward
Yet how many times have you quoted from your Bible
To justify your eye for your eye and your tooth for your tooth
You say that he didn’t mean
What he was plainly saying
And like the Pharisee, my friend you’re an educated fool
Drew -
Calm down.
There…did that help?
Mel Gibson used his own hand to drive the nail into the cinematic Jesus’ hand in “The Passion of the Christ”
I need a third person for my GOD’S WEIRD AND WACKY box set.
This is still a tough room. But that’s okay.
Enjoyed reading your comments.
The only one I am sure about being Christian are my dogs; unconditional love, no matter what I do. Glimpses of the divine on earth, except with wagging tails.
=)
dd
DD….
I gotta watch your films… just to see what all the excitement is about… as for Christianity and who is one….
Methinks you hold your cards close .. but have definite beliefs
Me also thinks thou art a provocateur par excellence
that is if thou art he
DD,
Per A Believer’s post at 6:20 & 7:01 and my post at 6:35 - would you please explain what you consider the “institutionalized” church?
DD,
It can be a tough room…and I respect you much for engaging it.
Thank you for taking the time to make us think.
Jesus said that the Pharisees were like the tombstones that were painted white. The Pharisees made themselves look pure and clean, yet inside they were full of dead man’s bones. The church has not just recently started white washing the stories of its heroes. This has been going on since the dark ages, at least. The truth behind the succession of popes for instance is so filthy and corrupt that I feel like I’m going to get violently sick reading about it.
I don’t know of a single missionary biography that is not white washed. The missionary biographies, if they include the stories of the dark side of their heroes, usually present that part in the person’s life as his BC life. It is as if the person accepted Christ and rarely ever struggled with sin, rarely ever fell into the mud spiritually, etc., but constantly had victory in every area of their life.
I think that today in the church people have such a tendency to knit-pick others to pieces, while giving themselves a huge amount of slack, that leaders in the church are afraid of the Paranas that would rip their flesh off if they were to be brutally honest about their lives. So many people have such a hard time accepting the smallest flaws in a pastor or leader, at least that has been my experience. Many pastors won’t even have friends because they are afraid people will find out who they really are. I wish that people would judge themselves with the same ferocity that they judge others. There is just so much hypocrisy in the church today, sigh…
Hi Linnea,
I’m doing so much better! Thank you for your prayers for me. You can email me privately if you want. The other sisters in here prayed for me too. It is amazing how quickly one’s life can change.
In between lots of tears and fears, I asked God to redeem the situation for His glory, to teach me all I needed to learn from it. I still pray that. No sense wasting any experience.
I will never be the same. Life is fragile. I love everyone here, but I did realize from that situation that I needed to be connected to a local church closer to home. We have found a precious church family and already are settling in.
Continue to pray for me if I come to mind. Turns out it was just a little tiny bump in the road, but at first I thought it might be a huge mountain. Either way, God held me, and He would be ever as real if it had been a huge mountain.
I always seem to enter this chat room when it’s sleepy time…smile…
You better watch it MLD.
I suspect you may get an answer like this.
Q: “…please explain what you consider the “institutionalized” church?”
A: ” The one that belongs in a padded cell.”
Well spoken, David. Spot on with all that you have said. I’m looking forward for the film’s release in Australia.
Apple of His eye,
So glad to hear you are doing much better!
and that
“Turns out it was just a little tiny bump in the road, but at first I thought it might be a huge mountain.”
Im sure Dusty will be glad to hear of it too!
Blessings to you!
Blessings on you too Sister Christian and Dusty and Nomans, and all praying hearts here and of course Michael…
I probably missed this somewhere along the way, forgive me if I’m asking old news. However, Is David Di Sabitino a Pastor in Toronto Canada?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMQRk4H2mZg
MLD,
I have always been troubled by our use of the word “church.” We say we understand that the church is made up of people, and that because God indwells (or “tabernacles” among us) that we carry it around with us. And we pay lip service to the fact that the “church” is not the four-walled building that we go to on Sunday.
But often, we then go and betray our understanding of that by believing that what goes on at that four-walled place called “the church” is really what is important spiritually… and the only place that God moves and works and uses us.
The reason I wish to make a sharp distinction has many reasons, not all of which I can go into here (for sheer boredom’s sake… and something good must be on television). First, I think what I am saying is biblical. Second, I think that the spirit of antichrist can be evident in those places just as often as anywhere else. I grew up at a church that sucked the life out of everyone who ever had any spiritual gumption. My friends and I call it a spiritual Auschwitz, but that is being kind (yikes…). Third, I think there is a malaise with organized religion that simply cannot be explained away by the fact that we, the complainers, are disaffected or embittered. Again, the church is no monolithic… good and bad is evident to me. But to not speak about the bad in a hope of reforming it… I am not sure those people really love the church.
As for the tests of my spirituality… again, I am not crazy about answering such questions, mainly, because I think it should be obvious.
But I answer this because, for one, I am not so diffident that I don’t understand or relate to the folks on here. I am not that far removed from that. . . I spent lots of time with old Italian ladies in black dresses who loved Jesus but could care less about who Athanasius was or why the Cappadocians were so important to the foundation of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit (… and who cares but ten boring guys, anyway… right? Right.)
I am a church kid. I have been to Bible college, seminary (cemetery, for some), grad school and am a lifelong student of the bible, theology and pop culture. I am engaged and interested. And I don’t mind that you wrestle with it. It is good to wrestle. I once did and it helped me a lot.
I can still sing the hymns… I am not bitter against the church… I love my wife… my dogs… and the ability to do these movies that will hopefully shake a few cobwebs out.
Hope that helps.
ciao,
dd
Thanks Michael!
and dang it dd, if while you were gone, you didn’t learn how to write a post without that one little sentence at the end that ticks everyone off. good for you…..boring…but good
My friends and I call it a spiritual Auschwitz
I have been a firsthand witness to this kind…
It crushes me.
love it. thanks. will see the movie when it comes.
Would you pray for Bart Millard’s daughter (guy who sand “I can Only Imagine”)?
She was JUST moved into the ICU with RSV. She’s a few days older than my new daugter.
DD, I do give you kudos for doing the interview and engaging us here. Thank you.
Sorry, but I tend to be in the camp with Steve, Pastor Pastor, and others who feel this is just tabloid/paparazzi-style journalism. I was never a Norman fan, although I was aware of his influence on early contemporary Christian music. The man is dead, what good does it do to dig up the skeletons?
Oh my goodness, yes, JTK! Thank you for posting that. Signing off to pray now.
praying Kirk
I am happy to hear that DD still sings hymns and loves his wife and dogs.
Still waiting to hear if he loves Jesus too.
Scott… that is my cousin. He is in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (PAOC)… as are three other cousins.
Capt. Kevin… not a problem. This is a new thing, being honest in church circles. I am certain that many pastors think this is a horrible thing to be doing. Not so interested in Larry so much as the other folks finally getting their turn to chime in on what went on.
Nonnie… I love Jesus. He mows my lawn and does a fine job of it. (Come on… I’m owed that one…thanks AB).
dd
dd,
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Best,
-g
We love Jesus yes we do, we love Jesus, how about you?
Actually Jesus said that we would love Him by keeping His commandments in the context of abiding in His love. We love because He first loved us.
‘the man is dead, what good does it do to dig up the skeletons?’
CK,
I’d like to hear you and the other critics say that to the Australian family left with the fallout — a young man neglected for years and years during the formative years of his young life.
But I guess God doesn’t care about justice and fairness, eh?
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
DD…Ok, you made me laugh.
But now I will walk away. A little sad.
Lutheran,
Non-celebrities don’t have the right to tell their story, if it in any way taints one of our celebrities. You’ve been at PP for a long time to have not learned that lesson yet. It is a recurring theme.
This film is actually the story of Randy Stonehill, Pam Norman, Tom Howard, Terry Taylor, Ed McTaggart, Alex McDougall, the various staff members of Solid Rock, as well as Larry’s alleged son and many others. But they don’t deserve a voice because they aren’t as famous as Larry. And if you listen to their story you find that they all still love Larry, and always did. And yet a bunch of people who didn’t even know Larry are sitting in judgement of a story they haven’t even heard, because it just might shake their fantasy.
In the same way, David’s film about Lonnie was the story from the perspective of Lonnie’s wife Connie, and of Kenn Gullickson, Chuck Junior, and a lot of unfamous people. Even in the areas where I disagreed with their perspective, I had to respect their right to tell their story. Everyone deserves that.
Don’t kill the mailman.
Dave
Again, I have the hugest respect for your opinions and never take them lightly. But my criticism of DDS is not that he picked on Larry Norman and is critical of him and thus, shaking “my fancy” or opinion of him, I won’t buy or watch the documentary simply because I don’t think Christians ought to be involved in this type of terrorist journalism.
People will flock to this stuff yet have every excuse for not coming to church, reading the scriptures or getting involved in service or spreading the gospol. It’s the worst type of hypocrisy and I choose not to support it.
Any way I’ve made my position clear and need not comment about it any more. (BTW Dave you taught me that!)
When Larry Norman died last year David was quoted as saying he wouldn’t be surprised if that turned out to be a ruse or a hoax and he was really alive and well and living in Thailand. The quote stood out among a crowd of quotes from people who knew Larry for different lengths of time at different times in Larry’s life.
Going on the basis of what has been trailed so far regarding the documentary on Larry Norman it seems that David is majoring on and giving the most attention to people who he says were wronged by Larry 30 and 20 years ago respectively… so a lot of focus appears to be on his 2 divorces, the break up of the original Solid Rock Records roster circa 1980 and the claims that Larry had an illegitimate son in 1988.
The title “Fallen Angel” comes loaded with a comparison between Larry and Satan (heaven’s worship leader falling and being cast out of heaven) and juxtapositioning that title with a documentary about one of the first people to do Christian rock to a good standard seems pretty sensationalist… and the comparisons between Larry and the devil run through the 4 minute trailer… one interviewee says during the trailer ‘why was the devil singing the good music’ while Counterfeit King from the sountrack plays in the background etc… but hey this is ‘a Bible story by David Di Sabatino’ and its about how the 3 people closest to Larry and most hurt by his wrongdoing forgave him.
I’m sure we could have a pretty good discussion of what a Bible story means to people here. For some here it will carry connotations of God’s Word or truth, inspired by God, whereas with DDS it just seems to mean a bit of a juicy story with larger than life characters and God being at work among the mess and rubbish.
Time will tell whether David’s film reflects God’s perspective on Larry’s life or the incidents the film concentrates on.
Any comments I DO make will be for people not to buy it or watch it in hoping that when DDS sees it is not profitable to make these type of documentaries he will cease.
I am sure he does a fine job technically. When he translates that talent into something productive, then I will encourage people to purchase it.
These threads are not edifying, IMO.
Love God, love your neighbor.
I’ve got to share this
simultaneously with posting here I am studying and writing a sermon about Jonah for Sunday. I am writing about the hypocrisy of Jonah who loves gods mercy when it is extended to him but despises it when that same character quality of God is expressed to the Ninevites–a people he believes is worthy of judgment. I suck at typing and so I typed “fudgment” instead of “judgment”
OK back to the serious stuff
Can i ask David if he’s still around what he thought of the OC Weekly article? I’m thinking specifically of the bits where it says that after his divorce in 1980 Larry disappeared from public view and was rumoured to be living in a cave in the Hollywood Hills. It’s on record that Larry moved to England and helped set up Chapel Lane Records and as well as recording his own stuff there he produced, engineered, co-wrote and sang harmony on albums by Alwyn Wall, Norman Barratt, Lyrix / Mark Williamson Band and Shelia Walsh and that on top of those recording commitments he toured in UK, Europe as well as playing occasional concerts in USA. The same article also says that Larry claimed he set up charities which sponsored children in the third world at the same time as refusing to take responsibility for an illegitimate son… I still haven’t had any answers to my questions on the OC Weekly website asking which charirites did Larry claim to have set up and for the OC weekly to provide references along with the relevant quotes so that people can check out the OC Weekly’s “research”.
Michael has called for a Day of Prayer and Fasting - want to join in?
Hoppy, I hear you!
DD, I hope that you DVD reveals the grace and forgiveness of Christ. If in showing the “fallen angel” of Larry Norman, you expose the mercy and grace of our incredible God in broken people’s lives, then I applaud you!
Steve, I think you are highlighting a serious question, one of the kind that this site often serves to help us all understand a little.
Under what context is it wrong to tell the whole story, warts and all?
We all agree that the scriptures often tell the whole ugly story, even about heros.
What is it then that could make it wrong to tell such a story?
Is it the manner in which it is told? Is it the motive?
Frin La Skip (anagram for skip franklin i think!)
When the bible tells a story it is to lead us to Christ, or to reveal that the sovereign plan of God cannot be derailed by our mistakes or to reveal the great mercy and grace of God. They serve the purpose of God to reveal something of his plan, nature and character
While I know there is a time to expose issues that happen in the body of Christ for the protection of all, I don’t think that is the purpose of Mr S.
Simply put this particular vein of documentary that DDS will no doubt continue to produce IMHO, has no place among Christians and the body of Christ.
This particular documentary may reveal (as has been stated) the love of God through the people Larry hurt (and let’s be honest he hurt a lot of people) but that fact will be at the mockery of DDS in the hands of a sovereign God. From what I’ve seen and heard of DDS I don’t think his intent is to do anything but damage the reputation of Larry Norman, or Chuck Smith (in the case of Frisbee) But let God be true and every man a liar
Hi Frinn
who says a 2 or 3 hour documentary is the whole story on Larry’s life or his relationships with the people Dave Rolph says have been allowed to tell their story? David has said in the interview he didn’t listen much to Larry after 1990 and he’s said elsewhere that he didn’t record anything much worth listening to after 1978-ish… there’s 20 or 30 years of concerts and albums and songs that aren’t getting much of a look in in David’s “whole story, warts and all” style documentary.
Another reason why it’s not the whole story is that Larry Norman, his family, and many of his friends and colleagues and collaborators from outwith the Solid Rock Records era (lets says 1975-81) have not been interviewed to give a balanced side or another perspective.
From what I’ve seen so far in the OC Weekly write up and David Di Sabatino’s posts on various Yahoo groups I would also say the quality of research and checking sources outside the years following 1980 may also mean we don’t get the whole story on this DVD although we may well get a lot of attention on the warts.
Dougie Adam,
All your points are well-stated and, I think, fair. I’d love to see someone else do a documentary that has a better balance. So far dds is the only one who is telling the story at all, but if someone would present another take on it I for one would welcome the effort. As I have stated here repeatedly, there is nothing in the documentary that diminishes Larry in my eyes at all, but there is certainly much more that could be said, and David has a decided perspective, which is what a documentary is all about. If David’s film gets the story on the table I think there is an opportunity for others to complete the story, and to put the unfortunate aspects of Larry’s life into perspective.
two lines from this thread that struck me….
dd:
“I love Jesus. He mows my lawn and does a fine job of it. (Come on… I’m owed that one…thanks AB).”
shaking my head, dd ……
but doubting my mexican american friends would be so humored
Bill Walden:
“If you don’t, I will posthumously get you via Raul Ries.”
Bill, what makes you so sure you’re gonna die before Raul?
I became good friends with Larry Norman about 3 years before he died: Following are excerpts from a very long letter Larry either sent or intended to sent to film festivals in Europe Re: the Lonnie film. I got it from Larry. I can’t help but wonder if David is not trying to get back at Larry with his new film. There are always two sides to every story!
COPYRIGHT AND LICENSE VIOLATIONS:
“Di Sabatino has refused to acquire “synchronization
licenses” for even one of the songs. He has made no
accounting to E.M.I. or paid them. They’re not even
aware of his existence except for what I’ve recently
been able to share with them.”
“When cornered at film festivals and by the promoters
of ticketed screenings where David takes all of the
box office receipts in cash, Di Sabatino always tells
the inquisitive and concerned promoters that E.M.I.
has said to “go ahead and show the film and that they
will work out a more complex arrangement in the
future.”
So far that “future” has been stretched across an
expanse of time – for more than a year and a half.
Easy enough to do – because David has no such
agreement or understanding with E.M.I.”
“In contacting my administrators at E.M.I. I have
received no indication or verification from them that
even a single piece of correspondence or email has
ever been sent to them. They have nothing on file. Mr.
Di Sabatino has never been sent a license for any of
the music.”
“And Mr. Di Sabatino himself cannot tell me the name of
the person at EMI that he contacted. He cannot tell me
the street address or phone number of the division
which is in charge of protecting my music. He cannot
even tell me what department he contacted at the
E.M.I. offices. And he has no paper or email to show
me indicating that he has been given a dispensation by
E.M.I.”
“After being told “NO” by me for several months, David
Di Sabatino promised me in an email in AUGUST OF 2005,
(as well as posting this same claim on his own
websites, that he had taken out ALL of my music and
had replaced it with an entirely different soundtrack.
So as of August or 2005, I stopped being concerned.
Then seven months later in February of 2006, a staff
member at “Jews For Jesus” informed me that the film
was playing in San Francisco and that Di Sabatino had
continued using all of my music in the “soundtrack”
without any changes. Except for one. He had bootlegged
a U2 song and had been using it for months, but
something must have happened which forced him to
remove it.”
“he (David) CREDITED ME for many months as being
the MUSICAL DIRECTOR of the film FRISBEE.
When in fact, I DID NOT EVEN KNOW THIS FILM EXISTED.”
“He’s breaking international copyright laws. He’s
collecting money at venues, and pocketing it. There is
no paper trail on any of the thousands of dollars that
have come in, because it’s all in cash and he takes it
directly out of the box office receipts and offerings.”
“in the meantime, he is going to keep battering
Pastor Smith over the head and slandering against the
kind and good ministries of “Calvary Chapel” and “The
Vineyard.”
“He has already received TWO legal “CEASE AND DESIST”
letters which told him to discontinue selling my music
via the film, or else to send photocopies of the
papers he claims to have received from E.M.I.
In response he has twice said: “NO! You send ME papers
which prove that Larry Norman has any right to say
anything about how his music is being used.”
“I’ve been very patient with
this man during all of the years that he bootlegged my
CDs and mass distributed recordings of my concert
appearances.
And I have been very patient with him about these 21
violations of copyright law.”
“I don’t believe in suing anyone, be they a brother or
an infidel. I have never sued anyone in my life.
But the F.B.I. has told me that ultimately the only
way to stop Mr. Di Sabatino is that I must sue him in
Federal Court. And that then they will levy huge fines
upon him and also imprison him for violating
International copyright law, trafficking in unlicensed
product, sending illegal product across state lines,
making false representations and warranties.”
“MY OPPOSITION to David Di Sabatino’s film
“FRISBEE” is NOT ABOUT ROYALTIES.
It is about SLANDER and DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER. While
talking to me on the phone, he began bragging and told
me that his strategy for FRISBEE was to publicly
chastise and HUMILIATE PASTOR SMITH and also make a
movie that would SELL TO CHRISTIANS and also SELL TO
THE GAY COMMUNITY. He has shown this film at Gay and
Lesbian Film Festivals all over America. They love the
film because the film endorses homosexuality as a
spiritually acceptable facet and accuses both of the
churches of banishing Lonnie Frisbee when they found
out ( according only to David Di Sabatino) that he
was gay.
I hope this year’s events for you are a great success
at your festival.”
God be with you.
Larry Norman
Hi Dave
i think there are two authorized biographies that Larry invited people to write a few years ago: Tim De Moss (USA) and Alan Gibson (UK) so we’ll see if they get finished and published. I travelled with Larry and his family on his final UK tour in 2001 and have an incomplete 250 page manuscript on that tour… i got sidetracked when i ended up helping compile some CDs from that tour and before that my house was burgled and among the things taken were my minidisc player / recorder and my recordings of the tour. Steve Turner was another person invited to write a book on Larry (late 70s) and was i think then asked not to publish it when he’d written it.
I’ve met and corresponded with people who have said that some or a decent amount of the supposedly barmy stories from the 1980’s of ill health, record company and tour promoter rip-offs, poisonings in Russia, healing etc were witnessed by others and can be at least partially corroborated. It would seem from the postings I’ve seen on Yahoo groups that David Di Sabatino made up his mind a while ago that those stories were rubbish or half-truths and that he hasn’t made an effort to speak to some of the people who were there at those times, and that some of the people who were there have also seen his style and posts and decided they don’t see the point in making themselves available for interview… which is why i have tried to politely give my opinion that “Fallen Angel” won’t come close to telling the whole story.
What the hay, Chico? Is that for real?
I hope that DD will respond to that post.
That’s some pretty serious stuff there.
Chico -
While I’m not a defender of DDS or his movies, the charges you lay out there against him are pretty serious…especially in that you make them as a virtually anonymous accuser.
Should your charges be false, you would be engaging in libel - not to mention engaging in false witness (breaking the 9th commandment).
If you feel you have a legal grievance, may I suggest that a blog is not the best way of proceeding?
Tim,
I removed that post after reading it. If he wants to pursue it he should contact DDS or have it reinstated here he can contact Michael directly.
Thanks, TonyP
TonyP…………… THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dougie et al,
For me, Larry had a long history of not being a reliable witness to his own history. That was substantiated by the people that I spoke with.
Your comment from the OC Weekly is from something that Matt Coker wrote, not me. Matt scoured the Internet and injected things that he read about Larry. One of the things that Larry was intent on doing was to tell his side, and only his side of things, for many, many years. And he abused that privilege by outright lies and telling the story with an intent of covering over his own tracks.
And when that wasn’t enough, he and his people (including his family) started to do what is being done here on this site… post outright lies.
And because Larry had the bullypulpit and had such a place in people’s heart because of the kind of music that he wrote, many people did not believe that he would do such things. The people that I interviewed, themselves some high profiles in the Christian community, say otherwise.
As to balance, every opportunity was given to his family and friends to be involved, as was to Larry. They chose to fight instead of offer their side. Which is their right.
I also do not believe they have any interest in telling the truth about Larry. A child has come petitioning for paternity rights because he and his family have been told (from the lips of a member of the Norman family) that he is in the will. And the Norman family has shut the door on this child.
To me, that isn’t behavior that suggests that they want balance or they are going to be a good interview. What that suggests is they are out to obfuscate and derail… just as Larry did in his lifetime.
YOu will soon see a swarm of posts from people that you’ve never heard of on this site. Every time something is said, there is a rash of quotes and statements nitpicking the small stuff… a comma out of place… a factoid that they can obfuscate … or in this case, a letter from the man himself lying his fool head off.
They want to keep the myth alive for some unknown reason, instead of admitting that Larry was a man who was deeply flawed but used of God, which is all I’ve ever said. Like Larry, somehow that truth is worse than the threat of hell itself… because this behavior is just downright despicable.
Hey… but keep it up. I am good for the challenge.
Sincerely,
dd
I think if Chico submits that information to Michael, he’d get a fair shake. Michael is fair and interested in both sides of the story.
Anyways, off of the DD Film and back to solitude and prayer.
dd,
all that being said, does anyone fertilize your lawn?
Dougie, Steve, you make IMHO good points.
(Yes, Steve H, I appear anagrammed.)
This whole thing has sent me searching the Internet to learn principles of fairness in writing biographies.
It is an interesting study!
How could we ever be fair to anyone about whom we say anything publicly?
It is such a tough question.
I am cautious about mentioning the name of a living person on the Internet, out of the realization of how impossible it is to be fair and accurate.
I believe at least one Christian speaker has been successfully sued for unknowingly misquuting someone from the pulpit.
I love what the Bible says: Wait to hear both sides of the story.
That’s what outrages me the most about this whole thing…this young man in Australia…
I was a big Norman fan most of my adult life. The man was extremely talented and could’ve easily been a big rock star.
But let’s do some clear thinking here. What I thought about the guy’s music is irrelevant here. And so is everyone else’s personal opinion.
The fact is, he did what he did.
God is a God of justice. I think if DD’s documentary doesn’t do anything else, it will at least present another side of the story.
And hopefully some fairness for this boy and his family.
And I can’t help but horselaugh at the posters who are nitpicking at the OC Weekly reporter and everything else. (DD, thanks for the warning). Just because a reporter doesn’t get every facet of a story complete does NOT invalidate his story. Journalism has been described as “literature in a hurry.”
where is there a post from Chico? I can’t find it.
Scott,
It’s there for Michael to see. If he thinks I was in error, he will correct it I’m sure. But I agreed with Tim’s assesment.
oh, I see, it was deleted.
Tony and Tim
I’ve seen a copy of the original Lonnie film, it did have Larry’s music in it and David was forced to take it out. Why not allow David answer for that?? I’m not accusing him of anything I’m just posting a letter I recieved for Larry Norman.
Chico, Tony made the right call in pulling your previous comment subject to Michael’s review.
Michael will make the final call on how this particular issue will proceed here.
TonyP
it’s a slightly unexpected twist that chico’s post which copied and pasted a letter from Larry Norman outlining some of his objections to Frisbee gets removed… on legal grounds that it might slander David di Sabatino. David has been quoted on a Yahoo group this week as being one of the sources by someone claiming that Larry Norman and his family lied about his financial situation while soliciting donations for his medical expenses fund. David hasn’t replied to eyewitnesses who have said they were in Larry’s house and it wasn’t a “mansion” at all. David hasn’t explained how Larry could be rich while having large medical bills to pay and while he operated without any major distribution deal for the last 30 years and without being able to play regular concerts from 2001. Surely if David wants to put information out there and suggest financial wrongdoing on Larry’s part and on the part of his estate he needs to provide evidence and explanations. If people are all in favour of a “warts and all” whole story non-hero-worship-version of Larry’s life coming out on DVD surely the maker of the documentary has to be fair minded and expect or accept people questioning his version of things?
Thanks Brain..I think it’s importaint that we all hear both sides of the story.
Chico,
If DDS wants to answer the question you just posed, he is more than welcome to. The validity of a letter copied and pasted or transposed onto a blog is suspect at best.
Tony
David is here, why not let him answer!! I at least 100 eamils from Larry Norman. I’ve corresponded with DD and all he ever did was call me names and shut me down.
TonyP made the right decision and he made it quickly and well.
I will review the post and I will probably allow it with the rejoinder that I do not affirm or confirm it’s veracity.
In the meanwhile…excellent job, TonyP.
You were born for this.
Sorry I ment to say that “I have at least 100 emails”
“I will review the post and I will probably allow it with the rejoinder that I do not affirm or confirm it’s veracity.”
See, I told you Michael is fair
What Chico posted was indeed legitimate, and I had received an almost identical account from Larry myself. That isn’t to say that what Larry alleges against David is true. We may never know that. But that is what Larry said about it. David can defend himself if he wishes, which is an advantage he has over Larry. But I can attest that what Chico posted was in fact what Larry Norman believed, or said he believed.
Tony
The only reason I want to be a “anonymous accuser” is so that he can deal with facts and not have someone to attact.
Thank you pastor Dave.
I’m still unclear why these kind of biographies are necessary for Christians? I’m sorry, that’s just how I feel.
What more can I possibly gain from knowledge of Frisbee’s & Norman’s failures, that I can’t gain from reading the narrative of Samson’s, David’s or even Peter’s life? Other than the entertainment value, there is absolutely NOTHING new under the sun, Solomon said.
If these men were still alive and directly injuring people, then I can see the need for an expose’. Other than that, I just have no interest. Especially in light of the letter Chico posted, it just sort of gives me the heebie jeebies to now read the other side of what Larry Norman was writing about David Di Sabatino during the time he was alive.
End of rant.
so…………. can Chico now re-post?
The letter that Chico posted is indeed legit.
It is also the manner in which Larry conducted himself. In the interview I alluded to the fact that Larry took a swing, then ran into the corner to put ashes on his face and cried that someone was beating up on him.
Welcome to the upside down world of Larry Norman.
Here’s a brief response…
I went to Larry in good faith. I asked him if I could use his music to flesh out Lonnie’s story. He said “yes.” I have that email giving me permission in my records. (Too, had he said “no” I would have used what I did.)
At the time, and still now, I don’t believe that Larry owns that music. Most of it is owned by EMI. So, Larry didn’t have the right to give that permission, either way. And I sort of knew that.
But Larry was spinning his back story, afraid that I was going to do a documentary on him. He loved the Lonnie doc… but he also knew that I wanted to do him next. I said I was going to.
And he got frightened.
And when Stonehill agreed… and everyone else agreed… because they had seen the work that I had done in Frisbee… Larry started to lie and do this sort of thing.
Most people would back down. Most people had. Larry had been good at backing up all comers who threatened the image that he had portrayed. I think what the fellow above said is accurate, we have to separate the music from the man… because there came a time when it was difficult to see any resonance between what he was saying on stage and what he sang about.
This is attested by the people in the film. It broke their hearts, but there was nothing they could do. Larry was in his own little concocted world.
And these unnamed people who are now doing this sort of thing, are people who have been grafted into the cause… solicited by Larry to do this sort of thing to continue the myth. How they can do this when there is a kid petitioning for paternity… a glaring and obvious mark of denial and everything else that I am claiming about the man… is mind-numbing.
Again… free will is what it is.
I have huge respect for Larry Norman. I was a fan of his music, and my documentary shows that. The people he worked with think that I have done a job that respects and honors him while still telling the truth. The reason Dave Rolph has seen the movie is because I wanted a pastor who knew Larry to tell me whether my jaundice was getting in the way, whether I had done a good enough job of telling the story without my own personal difficulties with Larry getting in the way. Dave seems to think I did. He said so without being asked. So do most of the people that knew Larry well and were stung by this sort of thing.
As for these other people… that is also part of the fun of doing what I do. When you stick your neck out, people take pokes.
No worries… truth-telling is a dangerous endeavor. But it is the truth that sets us free, even if it hurts. I hope that those folks that are so desperately trying to spin this story would calm their hearts to see that instead of spending their time doing this. You’re not going to be able to quash or sully the testimonies of Randy Stonehill, Terry Taylor, Tom Howard, Ray Ware, Holly Benyousky, Philip Mangano and a host of others who all agree that this is more than a fair shake for Larry.
… and you’ll never ever know how gracious I was to him and what I left alone because I am not a tabloid journalist.
Nonnie… I love Jesus with all my heart. All other ground is sinking sand.
blessings,
dd
Whoops… when I said the letter was “legit”… I mean that Larry wrote it.
The content… not so much.
dd
David
on the OC Weekly stuff you don’t think that it matters much and it’s like a comma out of place when Matt’s article says that after his divorce in 1980 Larry disappeared fom public view for years (when in fact he didn’t) and was rumoured to be living in a cave in the Hollywood Hills (when he was living in England) or that it adds to the picture of Larry as some eccentric mad man with big problems and stuff to hide? Any ideas where on the internet it says that Larry claimed to have set up those charities to sponsor kids… because that *fact* gets used to add to the picture of Larry as the hypocrite and financial crook in the article… in the same way as the stuff on the Yahoo groups just now is being used to suggest the same kind of thing (Larry was wealthy and lived in luxury and lied to get fans to pay his medical expenses as he made out he was poor). Not 1 of the sources banging on about multiple mansions and several luxury cars has said they were ever in Larry’s house in Salem or saw it with their own eyes and when people who were in the house on different occasions say it was “nothing like a mansion” these eyewitnesses get rubbished.
David
can you clarify roughly how many people in the CCM scene you spoke with who worked with Larry. The whole and balanced story would include people from early 1970’s right up until 2007/8 tour promoters, label heads, publishers and fellow artists and people on different labels and not just most / some of the old Solid Rock roster (1975-81) and people not just in USA and Australia but also places where Larry lived and worked at differet times like the UK, Scandanavia, Holland etc.
If there is a good spread of people from different eras, contexts, continents then great.
David
if you can correct any outright lies in my posts I’ll happily apologise and change anything that’s factually incorrect or even open to question.
I think all I’ve said so far without having seen your film is that it sounds like it is focusing on the most controversial or worst parts of Larry’s life and that because of who is and isn’t interviewed it is likely to deal with issues like divorces or the break up of a record label by looking at one side of those stories. Nowhere have i said anything derogatory about Larry’s ex-wives or the former colleagues on Solid Rock or said they don’t have a right to tell their side of the story. I won’t demonise you or anyone telling their side of things in your film. Your responses on the Yahoo group to my posts there and to Charles Norman might not look any less of a rant than the email from Larry which was copied and pasted here and then removed.
The reason i am silent on Daniel Robinson is because there is no official news on that, and as someone living in the UK what would you like me to contribute to the discussion when i don’t know anything much about it… my own personal view is it would be best if a DNA test was done and the matter was settled and until then i think its wrong for Daniel and the Wallaces to be demonised by fans and the entire Norman family to be demonised by people arguing on behalf of the Wallaces. When the results are known and public I still don’t think families on either side should be demonised. Very few people getting involved in that debate can have access to many of the facts.
Hey Chico- are you the same Chico that used to post here a while back?
If so…where the heck have you been??
If not….ummmmm never mind
DD
You said “I have huge respect for Larry Norman.” I some how don’t get that feeling from your posts. But if it is true, may you and I never become friends
steve,
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!! that’s definitely the post of the thread award……………….
Steve,
What centy said, with a few more exclamation points.
Steve, the film is already rolling. We’re just waiting for you to die! LOL!
Scott, that could be the motto for DD’s future documentary ventures:
“We’re just waiting for you to die!”
Why do many of you seem to put Larry on a pedestal? I think the main problem in Christianity is that we put people on pedestals, and then when they fail, we are crushed, or we make ourselves blue in the face trying to defend them.
The same thing happened when Swaggart and Baker fell. And now that we find out that Norman is not perfect it is happening all over again.
Let me clue some of you in. NO ONE IS PERFECT. WE ALL SIN. That is why we are to only worship Christ (not Larry, Jimmy, Jim, Benny, Billy, etc, etc, etc)
Just to add to my last post. I do think that all the men I listed were/are used of God. But I still think that they (like all of us) are flawed
Dale, agreed.
However, I still maintain that there is no point in even telling this story AFTER Larry Norman is dead. Assuming that all of the allegations against him are true, what can he do to reconcile with people he has harmed or rectify any possibly reversible situations? Absolutely nothing!!!!! That’s what makes this nothing but tabloid journalism.
i always find it interesting that it is usually pastors who say this kind of thing is offline.
… i wonder why that is… curious…
dd
DD,
If you’re talking about me, I’m not a pastor.
Capt Kevin:
Not sure if you watched Frisbee or not, but if this documentary is anything like that, it will provide a balanced view of Larry. I liked Larry’s music, but admittedly I have not listed to it for years. I believe that Larry was an instrument of God (warts and all) and part of the beauty of all the interactions in the bible, is that the flaws of man, just drive God to offer more mercy and grace.
A few examples of such would be
David and Bathsheba
Judah and Tamar
Peter’s Denial
Abraham and Sarah and their dealings with Hagar
Joseph and his bragging
Israel’s other children in relation to Joseph
Jacob and Esau
Paul and John-Mark
The list could go on. But what we see from those examples, is that God uses terribly flawed people. Many of the accounts we see in the Bible were written after the death of the individuals and therefore by your definition could be seen as tabloid journalism.
Heck all of church history there are flawed people. If historians were to ignore the flawed people for the sake of ’sanitizing’ it for us, avoiding the ‘tabloid’, then all we would be left with are volumes and volumes of mostly empty books.
Lessons are learned in the crucible
p.s I have know Dave D for 22 Years and I am hoping my friendship with him does not make me biased, but I do know this. DD is just as flawed as the rest of us, but God uses the flawed
Blessings
Dale
“…Many of the accounts we see in the Bible were written after the death of the individuals and therefore by your definition could be seen as tabloid journalism…”
Dale, with one HUGE difference: they are, as you say, accounts IN THE BIBLE. The canon of scripture is closed, despite the fact that the trailer for the movie said it was a “Bible Story” by DD.
I believe that there is great value in examining a life spent.
We would learn much if we could yield to the understanding that we are all simply broken people trying to find our way.
Why do we fear truth?
Even if it is ugly truth, it still contains liberating power.
Anyone see NIGHTLINE… a Driscoll bit
frankly, I haven’t heard convincing reasons for anyone to change their minds on whether they will see the movie or not. Principle is what it is, a guide to our choices, a synonym of our values. I think it is a bit like The Shack…controversial, watershed, potentially powerful, potentially a waste…depends on our perspective. Anywhere on that continuum is valid because this isn’t a moral choice or dilemma.
dread…still hasn’t shown here in the West
Is it worth the gander?
UUGGGHHH Filly!
How can we find anyone to inculpate in that sound babble?
I know this bunch is much too discerning…
But Theodore Haggard is supposed to be on Oprah I believe tomorrow
(Wed.)
Dread, nightline as in tonite?
inculpate?
fil-zified
David
“I went to Larry in good faith. I asked him if I could use his music to flesh out Lonnie’s story. He said “yes.” I have that email giving me permission in my records. (Too, had he said “no” I would have used what I did.)”
David do me a favor and show us that email! I’m open to a more balance view of things. I would also like to have the name of a witness who can attest to it’s authenticity.
“At the time, and still now, I don’t believe that Larry owns that music. Most of it is owned by EMI. So, Larry didn’t have the right to give that permission, either way. And I sort of knew that.”
Then why not use his music without his permission? Were you not forced to stop using it??
“But Larry was spinning his back story, afraid that I was going to do a documentary on him. He loved the Lonnie doc… but he also knew that I wanted to do him next. I said I was going to.”
Larry told me that he hated the Lonnie film. I’ve also talked to dozens of people who knew Lonnie well who also hated the film because they believed it was one sided and portrayed his brokenness as his legacy. I regress.
“And when Stonehill agreed… and everyone else agreed… because they had seen the work that I had done in Frisbee… Larry started to lie and do this sort of thing. Most people would back down. Most people had. Larry had been good at backing up all comers who threatened the image that he had portrayed. I think what the fellow above said is accurate, we have to separate the music from the man… because there came a time when it was difficult to see any resonance between what he was saying on stage and what he sang about.”
I’m not interested in defending Larry, I believe that he was a very broken human being. As am I and the rest of those on this site. I’m interested in a balanced view of History!!!
“This is attested by the people in the film. It broke their hearts, but there was nothing they could do. Larry was in his own little concocted world. And these unnamed people who are now doing this sort of thing, are people who have been grafted into the cause… solicited by Larry to do this sort of thing to continue the myth.”
This could not be further from the truth. When Larry and I first met, it was because I contacted him about his music in the Lonnie film.
“How they can do this when there is a kid petitioning for paternity… a glaring and obvious mark of denial and everything else that I am claiming about the man… is mind-numbing.”
What does a kid in China have to do with my demand for good journalism??
“I have huge respect for Larry Norman. I was a fan of his music, and my documentary shows that. The people he worked with think that I have done a job that respects and honors him while still telling the truth. The reason Dave Rolph has seen the movie is because I wanted a pastor who knew Larry to tell me whether my jaundice was getting in the way, whether I had done a good enough job of telling the story without my own personal difficulties with Larry getting in the way.”
Do you honestly believe that with your “personal difficulties” with Larry that you can be objective? I was told by Larry that you guys hated each other. In fact the day after he forced you to take his music out of the Lonnie film he got several vile anonymous emails that he attributed to you, I won’t copy those!!
“As for these other people… that is also part of the fun of doing what I do. When you stick your neck out, people take pokes.
No worries truth-telling is a dangerous endeavor. But it is the truth that sets us free, even if it hurts. I hope that those folks that are so desperately trying to spin this story would calm their hearts to see that instead of spending their time doing this. You’re not going to be able to quash or sully the testimonies of Randy Stonehill, Terry Taylor, Tom Howard, Ray Ware, Holly Benyousky, Philip Mangano and a host of others who all agree that this is more than a fair shake for Larry.”
I’ve asked my friends to sign a paper stating they will not talk to you after I die. lol all kidding aside as I said earlier I’m not trying to defend Larry. He may well have really been an ass. It’s just to bad it’s that side of him your interested in.
“and you’ll never ever know how gracious I was to him and what I left alone because I am not a tabloid journalist.”
I’m glad to hear you say that, imagine what could be said of you or me if the truth be known.
P.S. Just for the record,I’m not a pastor.
London
Yes it’s me! I’ve been busy, but I lurk..all the time…lol How have you been? Long time no see.
Driscoll is on in 4 minutes.
not bad for Nightline…no new info, but television makes him look 10 lbs. heavier.
Great interview imo - I havent seen the doc on Larry, but I have the one on Lonnie. To me the documentary on Lonnie honored him and gave his ministry the credit he deserved - CC in the early days would not have happened the way it did without Lonnie - it was phenomenal what went on with Lonnie. Lonnie is not alone in having his struggles and I think its refreshing to bring out that he wasn’t some hugh holy figure. It would be refreshing to see more people come out with their real stories about themselves. I know many leaders out there that have not been real holy.It would help the rest of us who struggle if they would be more real. I personally know many who put on a good “image” but who are so different away from the spotlight. And that goes for us lowly ones too.It would be such a good thing imo if we were all more real and cut the bs.
Dougie Adam
Email me somethime cross3020@yahoo.com
Captain Kevin
Good point about the Canon of the Bible. However lets look at the non canonical things I mentioned (like church history) there were some incredibly broken people’s stories told in the history books.
IMO the Frisbee Documentary, The Larry Norman Documentary, Ones on Aimee Semple McPherson all have their place in telling a story and helping to shape our christian lives. Even Documentaries (or Written reports) on Missionaries, Pastors, Cult Leaders are of importance to the average Christian.
That said, of course we have to look at any film, written account, etc with somewhat of a skeptical eye, as the author will always somehow include his slant of things (even if he/she does not realize it)
Hey Chico!!
Hopefully you’ve been busy with good stuff. I’m doing very well thanks..
Been doing tons o’ art stuff, starting a graphic design class tonight. Having a great time.
Glad you posted, you should come around more often!
Have you seen this movie?
London
I’ve been doing lots of ministy stuff, when I’m busy with ministry I stay out of trouble. I’m also getting ready to go back to school to finish my BA. What a blast to hear your doing art stuff, I love art.
London
email me at home sometime cross3020@yahoo.com
Will Do…
I say to try and degrade a man chosen to do Gods work in this world will bring the wrath of Jesus upon them who play a part in this movie.
We should be lifting Larry up, not knocking him down for his trials and mistakes in his life. What gain does this bring to Di Sabatino and Randy Stonehill? Money? Revenge? What glory does this bring Jesus?
How many people will be hurt by this story of half truths? No man is far from sin, and Jesus gave me this to say:
If the wound is still sore and the blood is still dripping from your wound, how can I forgive you if you can not forgive your brother? Pull the thorns from your own heart and be forgiven.
Isaiah 46:8,9,10,11,12,13
Isaiah 53:7
$40,000 to make a degrading movie of Godly man? What is your salvation worth?
Telling a story of brokenness doesn’t have to be a hatchet job, in fact, David’s point about a lot of Bible stories telling the failings of the followers is just that;
God gets the glory, God uses broken people, and it is often a Testament to God’s glory that he even shines through our brokeness. Jonah was swallowed, Peter denied Christ, Sampson had his hair cut, Thomas doubted, its through these fallen and broken imperfect vessels that the Gospel is told.
Thats what I got out of the Lonnie documentary, God used him inspite of him, just as he uses anyone else that is used by him. The failings and brokeness is a huge part of the story, it’s why we need God.
As Rich Mullins said; “God chose to speak to Balaam through his ass, and he’s been speaking through asses ever since. So if God chooses to speak through you, don’t think too highly of yourself.”
That is a huge part of the Gospel itself, that our works are as filthy rags. It doesn’t do anyone any good to praise ourselves or tell our stories without the ugliness.
Jason, I think the problem here is that it is not Larry himself who is telling his story. If Larry were admitting to sin and failure and testifying to God’s grace and mercy in his life (as he so very often did in his songs and his interviews and his writings)that would be one thing and that would undoubtedly bring glory to God. That would draw broken, hurting people to a God of forgiveness and love.
“Doesn’t matter how you’ve fallen, let it pass like the wind because love covers a multitude of sins.
Get up and keep on walking. Reist those things you craved.
For if you walk with Him in whom you have believe, you shall be saved.” Dizzy Reed /Larry Norman
What we seem to have here though are other people telling that, although their brother wronged and hurt them, God has given them the grace to forgive him and that inspite of Larry’s sin and failure God still managed to use him. Well…that’s something else altogether!
It certainly qualifies as hating that which is evil (especially when it has affected us personally) but does it qualify as clinging to that which is good?
Is it being devoted to one another in brotherly love and honouring one another above ourselves?
Is it blessing those who persecute us?
Is it mourning with (Larry’s family and friends who are still grieving) those who mourn?
Is it not repaying evil for evil?
Is it not taking revenge?
(Romans 12)
Dave Rolph wrote:
“And if you listen to their story you find that they all still love Larry, and always did. And yet a bunch of people who didn’t even know Larry are sitting in judgement of a story they haven’t even heard, because it just might shake their fantasy.”
Dave, you’ve seen the film and I haven’t (& like Steve Hopkins I wouldn’t encourage more in the same vein by paying to see it). Hopefully the film is more full of grace & love and less full of self righteousness and condemnation (towards Larry and his surviving family) than are the Yahoo Groups where David has been garnering his pre-release publicity.
You are right in that the correct response to exposure of one’s sin should be, “So what?” Larry’s sin is confessed, repented of and covered by the blood of Jesus. So far as the East is from the West, so far has God removed his sins from him. I still think there is something sick about focussing on any fellow believer’s sin and failure rather than, “clinging to that which is good.”
There was so much that was unbelievably good in Larry’s life.
There are now many hurtful half truths and untruths being circulated about what was wrong in Larry’s life.
Whatever happened to honouring one another above ourselves?
Whatever happened to extending the grace and mercy that Father God extends to us to our brother in the Lord?
I liked Dave Rolph’s comment about grace much more abounding.It’s one thing that a lot of people who call themselves Christians miss quite frequently. I saw Larry a number of times (and Randy too, and them together, and Larry with Andrae Crouch). In PA, at Jesus ‘73, a friend of mine and myself, found a way into the trailer part where the participants were staying and found Larry playing frisbee with some kids about 5 or 5 yr old. He talked to us freely and without putting on any airs, or acting like some rockstar, and we had a pleasont 10 or 15 minute talk with him. We found him to be patient, and gracious, and almost shy. I realise this doesn’t jive with the picture being presented, but it was a “real” side to him that maybe most didn’t get to experience.In the end, he was after all,very human. That is where the grace and forgiveness of God which abounds, comes in.
As for Wimber et al, I have studied the theological positions and examined the scrutiny at sites like “intotruth.org” and “endtimespropheticwords” at wordpress.com, and not being totally familiar with the beginnings, can only say something went off track somewhere. Bentley is a whole ohter “case” in itself.
Thank you for that refreshingly positive memory, Paul.
However, it does sound as if, “Fallen Angel,” presents Larry mainly as spectacular sinner.
It is interesting that Larry regarded his true legacy as the thousands who were brought into the kingdom through his ministry.
Hopefully the biographies which have been commissioned will reveal, in addition to Larry the sinner saved by grace, Larry the evangelist, Larry the prophet and Larry the man after God’s own heart.
I find it a pity whatever the rights and wrongs of Larry Norman that DDS should choose to bring out the film after his death. I really do not know if DDS is a christian or not but the film does not really glorify God or portray a charitable spirit. If what DDS says is true - When a brother falls the bible does not invite us to beat him on the head ! If he insinuates that LN is a manipulator, what is the difference in his own manner of working . . .
Wow. Lots of comments. I received an email from DDS while he was making the Norman doc as I was on his Frisbee email list (I have since removed myself). I wish I had saved it, but didn’t think to at the time. The essence of the email was that he was going to get back at Larry Norman for not allowing his songs to be released as a soundtrack recording of the film about Frisbee, or not alowed to be used in the film at all, I can’t quite recall. Bottom line was that the email in no uncertain terms let it be known that the Norman doc was to get back at Norman…not exactly a foundation on which to build an unbiased documentary. I have read many a posting by DDS on differnt internet groups and can only say that I have never seen a Christ like attitude displayed by the man. As to his salvation, that is for God to know…but I do continually pray for DDS.
Pastor Dave
Wow…
what have we become and what does this look like to those who watch?
Nothing done in the name of “art” or “self-expression”, or that is disguised in the celluloid of “sharing the truth” will ever accomplish what a simple act of forgiveness can.