A day has passed … without much firestorm over this.
There is however more to say about the matter.
Once again I hope speaking out does not end friendships or destroy partnerships but I have counted that cost and desire truth as much as friends. I dearly love some of the very men who are deeply embedded in this matter.
In all honesty, given the nature of this whole matter, Todd Bentley should be out of ministry for the foreseeable future. He should find a job and work. He should be quiet. He should listen and learn from more mature voices around him. Why do I say this?
First, the simple nature of the offense. He has violated every sacred thing that a minister is sworn to uphold. When a minister takes ordination he takes the mantle of fidelity, trustworthiness and honesty. He has not shown that he can be trusted.
Second, the reality is that he had a prior brush up with something similar. Whatever it was it should now become public. If it was the same kind of offense then there is a deeper problem. We should never refer to moral failures as a ‘dark night of the soul.’ That title belongs to holier things.
Third, compounding of the adultery with the deceit of using the reputations of others to validate himself is egregious. The men and women on that platform in June have surely forgiven Todd and most have stated as much but the loss to their own credibility is great. Todd has reduced the credibility of the entire movement. The hastily performed endorsement is laden with its own problems but Todd allowed it to go on not fearing the Lord or respecting His name or the names of his advocates.
Fourth, this whole scenario is ignoring the voluminous problems with Todd's ministry style. Many of his practices are questionable at best and as a pastor they are abominable. Shouting "Bam" as you 'handle' people is the least of many shameful behaviors that I and others would not allow in our churches. Throwing people to the floor does not manifest glory or anointing. I would have told him on DAY 1 in my church to stop it.
Then there was the matter of referring to the blessing of God as "getting some." That phrase is well known by a whole generation as a sexual euphemism. It objectifies people and reduces them to a commodity to be possessed. Again, I would have rebuked the man in private and told him that we are not here to "get some." We are here to touch the hem of His garment.
Fifth, Todd has been a man who has controlled his image by his voluminous words. He stood with bravado and made hundreds of claims, of pronouncements, of challenges that have fallen to the ground. He promised that the revival would be the most carefully recorded event of its kind in history and that the acts of God would be provable to all. He taunted the press and challenged them to come and see what God was doing. The promise of evidence was not forthcoming. The claims of worldwide revival fell fruitlessly away. Just take his claims on the night of the commissioning itself and objectively analyze them and you will see they came to empty words.
Sixth, and this is a very big issue. The matter of Todd's truthfulness is very much in doubt. This pertains to not only his lifestyle and hidden relationship but to his pulpit stories and proclamations. This goes to the truthfulness of his heavenly visions, angelic encounters, heavenly visits with saints, and encounters with Jesus himself. What would a series of interviews with the former staff of Fresh Fire reveal? I suspect that it would reveal a habit of shading the truth that was obvious to dozens of people. I would go so far as to say that the famous video where Todd claims to have done a series of violent acts 'under the anointing,' cannot be verified. Todd's actions have put the truth on trial. No restoration without this area being explored. The few videos of such acts are more like wrestling tricks than violent exchanges but to risk hurting people in this fashion is horrific.
Seventh, and I will stop at this for now. The cavalier treatment of divorce and remarriage in this matter weakens marriages and mocks the oaths given to God. Yes, half the church is divorced. I myself grew up in a broken family. We all know and love people who are divorced but the public handling of this pushes the limits of tolerance to unbelievable lows. Todd was publicly anointed with Shonnah for world revival. Then he disappears from public view and reappears with a new wife Jessa (I regret my former misspelling of her name) and all the talk is immediately about getting him back to ministry as soon as possible.
Who performed this marriage? And why on earth would anyone thrust a man back into ministry when he himself allows that the demands of ministry helped to destroy his marriage to Shonnah? And then on the first public appearance he chides the viewers with a statement that he and Shonnah have moved on and so should we. How were we suppose to move on? The revelation of his divorce and remarriage came on Sunday and on Monday the news that he was triumphantly being restored.
The last thing that I want to mention and I intend to push back against this claim and challenge it on every occasion. It has become a common matter for defenders of Todd to preemptively chide all critics as self-righteous and judgmental. We have phrases coined that are used to tell anyone who dares to challenge apostolic authority that we are possessed of some spirit of one thing or another.
This claim is deadly and it is a poison that misses the mark. First, it presumes that if you call someone self-righteous that you yourself are freed from the same. That should on its face be obviously in error. Second, it undermines all Biblical Apostolic moral rebuke within the testimony of scripture itself. This claim makes it impossible to confront evil or to bring into question any behavior. It makes moral instruction meaningless.
It is not self-righteousness to question the actions of these apostles nor to question the antics and behaviors of Todd Bentley. Nor is it wrong to question Alan Hawkins in the same fashion. We are all accountable.
Todd Bentley's restoration is not about him alone. It is about the credibility and survival of the entire movement that he represents. Of which I am a part. Therefore, let us go forward. I do not have any authority in this matter. I am a participant in the drama at the lowest level. But this is of utmost importance in the lives of millions.
There is no ill-will toward Todd Bentley in all of this. Let him live a quiet life for the foreseeable future and allow true restoration to come to himself and Jessa. May he experience a genuine renewal and humility that allows himself to be challenged far beyond the matter of marital failure.
Your emails are welcomed.
babylonthegreatfallen@yahoo.com
Hopefully these words will be seen and read by those that need to read it. If not, it’s only preaching to the choir.
“There is no ill-will toward Todd Bentley in all of this. Let him live a quiet life for the foreseeable future and allow true restoration to come to himself and Jessa. May he experience a genuine renewal and humility that allows himself to be challenged far beyond the matter of marital failure.”
And because of this spirit your words carry even more weight and truth. Another excellent post, Alan. Thank you and God bless
I have been deeply moved by Alans words…because they reflect truths that we need to apply to the whole Body of Christ.
Todd is just a symptom of a disease that we all have to one degree or another.
Praying the Lord surround you, tough road my friend. May He equip you daily for the battle ahead.
And God bless you for standing for truth!!
Alan, great summary of the issues. Your love for our Lord is evident and your voice is one of truth.
I have questions rather than a comment.
How does one get restored without true repentance.
If we are to believe that Todd can be restore how does that square with Matt 19:8-9?
Can we in the light of scripture even expect restoration when we set the terms of restoration?
Isn’t Shonnah, Todd’s wife until she or he dies? I Cort. 7:39
Just wondering?
After watching the video communique of Rick Joyner & Todd Bentley last night, it was pretty clear to me that Bentley will be back on the sawdust trail before you know it. I’m guessing within 90 days, or less. There are thousands that would be willing to show up tomorrow night if he announced a meeting, that’s just the reality of it.
In addition, it was so surreal to hear Todd say that he and his ex-wife Shonna, actually get along better now than they did when they were married! Well, that settles it then! :Tongue in cheek:
At the risk of TOTALLY derailing the thread, but for a good reason, I’d like to post links to my posts today about GREG LAURIE’S new Bible study that he just launched in Orange County, California — right up the street where I live! Woooohoooo!
Guys, it was great — a very nice antidote to the Bentleys of the world.
http://richardabanes.wordpress.com/
http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/abanes/11600879/
Richard Abanes
In case anyone else was wondering, just figured out Skip’s gravatar is Rick Joyner.
I know its totally random, just hit me when I saw the video
Dread,
I applaud your heart in your effort to uphold the integrity of Christian ministry and the Blessed name of Jesus.
BD, don’t you think that what you have to say would be far more effective if you sent it out as a “Special Bulletin”?
Dread-
I liked what you had to say about self-righteousness. The accusation of self-righteousness is often made against anyone who dares to stand against evil.
I guess the truth is that one can discern self-righteousness in the tone and the attitude of the one who is pointing out error.
Is the person haughty and angry, or broken and grieving? Does the person come across as one who would “never do such a thing” or as a person who knows full well they could do such a thing and is filled with fear and trembling over such a prospect?
Made me thing, you did, sir.
THINK..made me THINK..sheesh!!
Look, anyone that can’t smell the sanctimony here just isn’t trying.
I realize I am a lone bone on his own.
But…
The problem with a cult, or a lynch mob, or any group that is entirely in agreement and rabid about something, is that they get on a bandwagon and get disconnected from reality.
Christianity is a matter of the deep inner workings of the heart.
Self-righteousness is very subtle, and like legalism, once I am in it I am not aware of it.
The topic of self-righteousness should not be thrown out of the discussion as irrelevant.
Whatever the perfidy of Bentley, it does not give his critics a pass on examining their own true motives.
This can be a constructive discussion, but the screeds and jeremiads ring a little hollow.
Whose sins do we need to be spending time lamenting?
I will certainly second MN’s thought that there is a disease that we all have to one degree or another.
What it is and what we need to do about it is worthy of discussion.
One thing my devoted wife and I have learned in our marriage is, The person that each of us needs to be trying to change is himself or herself, not the other person.
I am worried about, not, What is wrong with TB, but, what is wrong with me?
“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.”
(1Timothy 5:20 ESV)
“if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer,as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.”
(Titus 1:6-2:1 ESV)
“Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.”
(Titus 2:15 ESV)
“I am worried about, not, What is wrong with TB, but, what is wrong with me?”
There in lies the problem. A true shepherd cannot afford such black and white myopic’s.
“The problem with a cult, or a lynch mob, or any group that is entirely in agreement and rabid about something, is that they get on a bandwagon and get disconnected from reality.”
WOW! What an indictment.
Px2,
Skip is regurgitating the same blather we heard from Heitzig’s toadys.
There is a refusal to admit wrongdoing in the first place, then when they are suffocated by evidence they howl about how ungodly it is to expose their heroes.
I am concerned about my own walk with God…but my walk isn’t on GodTV and affecting hundreds of local churches.
Skip…I actually replied to this thread more on the Prayer thread than here, but your post is drawing me back.
One of the things that struck me in Alan’s words is simply that if I was in sin and either didn’t recognize it or had so backed myself into a corner that I didn’t know how to get out…I would want Alan to come along and pull me up and walk with me to the throne.
Have you ever been rebuked? I mean, really called up on something that made you suddenly have a clear picture of yourself?
I have…and it stung and I hope it happens again if I need it.
The rebuke is hard to hear…but it leads to freedom.
I can understand that you think this comes off as self-righteous, but what I hear in Alan is a pastor’s heart who is breaking over what is happening.
If those who are close to Bentley are only helping him get things together so he can continue in his “ministry” they are not helping him.
Ps 27:6
Michael,
The scriptures pretty much say it all don’t they. Putting your head in the sand doesn’t seem to equate with “rebuke with all authority.”
The strongest thing I sense in Alan these last couple of days is true spiritual authority.
Px2,
Alan is speaking with the moral authority that comes from a life truly lived “coram deo”
It is that moral authority based on the Word of God and salted with humility and grace that we desperately need throughout the church today.
Michael,
Very well said and I am praying for him.
#1 This is not only about Todd Bentley.
#2 Alan is not pleading Gods case with the body of Christ.
He is declaring what is so.
This work is done.
Selah.
Alan is speaking by absolute inspiration, and it is an echo of what is already so in the Kingdom of God.
Fear the Lord.
Love His appearing.
Hear this, and be stirred to revival in your own hearts.
TODAY
Cut off pride and apathy.
Despise them.
Prophesy and exhort one another like never before.
Singing spiritual songs over His Beloved.
God is on the move.
Michael
Thank you for the Scriptures in your 9:07, all words of Paul who considered himself the chief of all sinners. If one where to follow the logic of Skip there would be no godly rebuke.
Nomans,
Amen.
Alan
Thank you!
Nomans,
I also give the amen!
Bob,
While we were investigating a pastor’s sexual improprieties in the Vineyard John Wimber declared “no unsanctified mercy.” It’s been years but I will never forget.
Me too, Nomans…Amen!!
Bob,
What’s missing from all these discussions is the concept of shame.
You and I have felt the power of shame and been driven by it to a cross where we were forgiven and restored…forgiven before we asked and restored over time.
It takes time and great soul wrenching work by the Holy Spirit and it’s not something we wished to have an audience for.
I don’t believe that Bentley or his enablers know the meaning of the word….
Ps 29
Ascribe to the Lord , O heavenly beings, ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name; worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness.
The voice of the Lord is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the Lord , over many waters.
The voice of the Lord is powerful; the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars; the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf, and Sirion like a young wild ox.
The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness; the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth and strips the forests bare, and in his temple all cry, “Glory!”
The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
May the Lord give strength to his people! May the Lord bless his people with peace!
Px2
Someday, I would like to talk with you about your time with John. I think you know that I knew John back in early 70’s when he was on staff at Yorba Linda Friends.
Nomans,
Again amen!
From my Prophetic Office (well, really it’s my home office) I predict that the restoration process will be swift and Todd will be shipped off to Africa (out of Charisma & Christianity Today’s limelight) to conduct huge revival, healing crusades all over the continent - re establishing his prophetic (or is that pathetic) and healing gifts.
He will return to the US in a year as the conquering hero - and people will fall at his feet.
MLD,
Hopefully your little black hat is just to tight…
MLD just nailed it…
I did not say to throw self-righteousness out of the discussion. What I said is that I intend to push back every time it is brought up.
It would be easy to catalog the frequency of people who go on the attack every time that Todd Bentley makes a mess. For some reason speaking out about his antics, morals, teachings and behaviors is tantamount to being a Pharisee in the eyes of his advocates. This charge is made in letters, in sermons, in print and in interviews. Over and over everyone who defends Todd makes the charge.
We are told that Jesus did not denounce anyone except the self-righteous. Well actually Jesus denounced religious hypocrisy. Todd is not an unbeliever being condemned by the sanctimonious, He is a minister of Jesus Christ who is bringing all kinds of public scorn to the Gospel cause. To reproach him for it is not self-righteous. And frankly, I will gladly take the moniker of self-righteousness if it will cause this stuff to STOP.
Perhaps Paul was being self-righteous when he refused to go on another mission with Mark when Mark wimped out. Perhaps he was being self-righteous when he rebuked Peter openly and then wrote about it in his letter to the Galatians. Perhaps he was being self-righteous when he spoke of the Jerusalem church leaders “6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.”Ga 2:6
My point is that open conflict in the body of Christ is hardly new and is in fact a necessary move forward.
Put it this way Skip…if you think that I am being self-righteous just SAY IT DIRECTLY…I do not mind. And I am not claiming to be without sin in my own manner and method. I am saying and not quietly and not shyly that Todd Bentley has removed himself from meaningful influence for the foreseeable future. He represents the eros life and not the life of a Gospel minister.
Let me be clear. This is not to say that fruit has not come from the Lakeland revival. I am glad every time Christ is preached. I rejoice every time anyone is blessed through the hand of Jesus. I am saying that Todd cannot speak with moral authority and that we cannot speak with moral authority when we hold sacred things in such low honor.
I hope more people enter the discussion.
I hope Todd Bentley gets proper instruction and forgiveness.
I hope this conflict ends in resolution.
I hope we all get better at conflict and at representing our Savior.
Sorry,
That last post was mine…
pastor pastor,
““I am worried about, not, What is wrong with TB, but, what is wrong with me?”
There in lies the problem. A true shepherd cannot afford such black and white myopic’s.”
could you expand on that some?
alan aka dread , ugm
Alan -
God bless you sir, for speaking out. My prayer is that others in your movement (including Skip) would take your words to heard & prayerfully consider them before just writing off criticism as a “lynch mob.”
On a completely unrelated note - our family’s vacation was wonderful. We had the opportunity to spend some unrushed quiet days together, visit with some dear friends, and worship with God’s people. Who could ask for more?
Gotta run…men’s retreat this weekend.
skip,
you’re walking a narrow ledge. I admire your pluck. But the minority voice on any matter has a higher degree of scrutiny applied to it. Your reasoning, illustrations, and conclusions must be sharper, cleaner, and provoke thought, not reaction. So far, your efforts don’t make the grade. Bentley’s situation is a like a stick house blown down by the big, bad wolf. The problem isn’t the wolf, it was poor construction and a juicy, tasty pig inside. He’d have nothing to worry about if he hadn’t put himself in this mess. Your considerable talents and heart are wasted on this subject.
blowhardporkloverfil
Bob,
I’m going to be in SoCal in May and again during the summer. I would love to meet with you. Email Michael and we’ll exchange numbers.
Alan,
I sense no self-righteousness in you but I do sense a boatload of righteous indignation which is timely, sharp as a two-edged sword and laced with wisdom. I know that you are standing up to a “culture” made up of brothers who have bought so hard into a man that his behavior does not matter. What the bible says about TB’s immorality becomes an annoyance. Any rebuke is deemed as an attack. The blind lack of integrity leaves you incredulous. I know what it feels like. May God give you peace as you stand firm.
I have seen folks stoutly defend pastors thru the years and not realize what a disservice they are doing. Perhaps they remember growing, being blessed with realization of spiritual truths or, even being born again under the man. It is the same misguided sense of loyalty that supports their erring child and covers rather than corrects their misdeeds. IMNSHO
That is the reason that my prayer time over the years has included the support groups as well as the pastor/teachers. God, help them in their love of You to have a healthy fear of Your holiness and justice.
Most of us here have probably been guilty, at one time or another, of taking self-righteous shots at Bentley. I know I have. But the one person here who is not guilty of that is Alan Hawkins. He is a true man of God. I expect his rebuke to go unheeded, but history and God will judge him to be prophetic.
Dave,
It will probably go unheeded by those involved, but to the one that it reaches, such a glorious opportunity. Alan speaks not just to TB & crew. God has him speaking to someone else…..I pray they hear him.
“I am worried about, not, What is wrong with TB, but, what is wrong with me?”
The problem with that kind of thinking Skip, is that it doesn’t take into account that some of us are moms, dads, aunts, cousins, uncles, of people who are in their “early years” and just see TB and his ilk as people to look up to as role models.
We can’t just worry about ourselves. We have a moral responsibilty to them to sound the alarm that this type of behavior isn’t acceptable. That there are dangerous people that don’t tell the Truth about life, God or themselves.
London,
“We can’t just worry about ourselves. We have a moral responsibilty to them to sound the alarm that this type of behavior isn’t acceptable. That there are dangerous people that don’t tell the Truth about life, God or themselves.”
Well said … good post!
It amazes & saddens me in situations such as these … where a Christian leader has clearly gotten off track … that somehow people can justify and even come to the defense of the off behavior. It’s also interesting that the method of defense is to attack the motives of those sounding the warning. Guess that’s all they have left. You would think that in itself would cause them to think about what they are doing. Sad.
London and Nancy,
No one is a bigger advocate of grace than I am, but it is so sad how quick we are to show grace to leaders, thus denying grace to innocent victims of that leader. I think we have it backwards. A stricter standard should apply to leaders.
Potpourri thread at my blog…I actually have some decent links over there today.
http://briandblog.com/?p=515
I got nothing right now to say about Todd Bentley…except that I was aggravated that when I went to one of his sermons/concerts last summer, I was told I had to take my iToy out of the sanctuary and put in my car. I walked….
…and, I support Dread in what he is doing.
When I hear statements like “I take full responsibility” while trying to gain back an audience, I start looking for the PR spin masters.
Ever since Hugh Grant made such a speedy comeback with his mea culpa on the Tonight Show, this has been the world’s method of dealing with scandal.
It doesn’t surprise me that TB would use the same Public relations strategies the world uses.
Senor Rolph has hit a home run with his statement of how people have it backwards when wanting grace quickly applied to the big shot leader while his crumpled victims are forgotten. I’m glad God is not a respecter of persons, aren’t you?
Right on Dave.
Nonnie,
Bill Clinton taught Hugh Grant first how to do that.
puzzletop
Puz
It all depends on how one defines “is”.
Bob.
I’m not confess’n anything here, but how many times have we instructed our children to say, “I’m sorry” and then go on as if the matter was taken care of.
what London and Nancy said - good words
taking some liberties here with a quote from Morningstar site:
“Todd Bentley was used to spark the Lakeland Outpouring, which raised the faith level of much of the body of Christ……”
I find that first sentence to be very honest - very honest. Todd Bentley was used…
raised the faith level…ahh, but faith in what exactly? They have left the door open for you to fill in with your own conclusion, I guess…that’s good, too
Alan/BD,
You’ve masterfully combined love & sternness in your letter, it must have had you on your knees before posting.
Praise the Lord for your stand on this matter (& your ability as a writer).
time to stop the rot.
What does being “restored” really mean? In Bentley’s case the focus and the end result of the “restoration” is on being released to public ministry again. I use the word “ministry” loosely, because if what he is planning on delivering again is the same old shtick, then what will that have accomplished?
Btw, wasn’t Bill Johnson a part of Bentley’s “restoration” during the “Dark night of his soul” just a couple of years ago? Mind you, that “restoration” was focused on returning Bentley to the platform too.
Joyner & Bentley both made it clear in the video communique posted on Morning Star’s website that public ministry restoration is the focus. I think that Bentley even made a statement that alluded to the fact that he’s already developing a “series” on “restoration” and his own “Triumph and tragedy.” And of course, he added the usual “and it’s going to be POWERFUL”, meaning get those check books ready.
I’m unimpressed by the public relations handling at this point and just wish the whole thing would go away. Unfortunately, it won’t. I’m just glad I’m not Alan Hawkins
Rolph, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. There’s no doubt in my mind that leaders should be held to a higher standard! No doubt at all…
I also think we, as adults, do the “kids” in our lives a huge disfavor by not showing them what good leaders look like and how good leaders act. I’m more and more convinced that we’re (all of us over 30) are failing them miserably on all kinds of fronts.
Saying that we’re just going to worry about ourselves and no one else, is not only impractical, it’s irresponsible as well.
How many warnings do you think Alan will have to take about “touching the Lord’s anointed?”
Dave,
As long as he stays with discussing TB, they shouldn’t say that at all.
Hey Rolph,
I am thinking that you might advocate for me with your tribe cause I may be a Mississippi/NM Boll Weevil looking for a home. Do you guys accept amil renewal freaks? If not maybe you could recommend a good therapist.
Whatever Happened to Ole Dread
AH,
This is what I was alluding to the other day about the pastors here standing together.
The pastors that post or lurk on this site & agree with Alan need to stand by him now…publicly here & at their local church.
Nothin’ is gonna happen to Grand Ole Dread that the Lord can’t protect.
Scott, hopefully you’re wrong about a cash cow restoration but honestly, I think you’re right. Lord help my unbelief.
Good word Alan
Well where ever Dread went –Dead is in nowhere land.
Lets start a new movement of the we can be the DD non-denomination denomination .. The Deadly Dreads ,or the Dreaded Dead-
We couldn’t loose
De 11:25 “No man shall be able to stand against you; the LORD your God will put the dread of you and the fear of you upon all the land where you tread, just as He has said to you.
UnDenominatedDead
Alan,
I would be proud to be associated with you. Dreadly Chapel has a nice ring to it.
Dreadly Chapel … ummm … how bout Deadly Dead Chapel … or Dreaded Deadly Chapel … ummm … or … Dreaded DeadMan Chapel … or …
No No … I got it … Dreaded DeadManWalkingCrossRoads Chapel
or…Deadmen Passing Into Life Chapel of the Dread … got something similar here in town I think …
or…DreadedDeadManWalkingCrossRoads Chapel … gets my vote … I give
Rick Joyner responds to Lee Grady’s “Greasy Grace” article. Sounds like the “Civil War” is on!
Here’s a little taste:
“Lee, I think what you call “the Lakeland disaster” would be disputed by multitudes of people who got healed or touched there. If you are such judge of this what gives you the credentials? What moves of God have you led? What have you built? Paul the apostle claimed to have authority for building and for tearing down, but what gives you authority to tear down the work of others is having built something yourself.
I, Todd, Bill and Jack all know this is a very serious matter, and are treating it as such. I am deeply offended that you would call our work “a travesty.” The Lord had far more grace for sinners than for the self-righteous, who He had no grace for at all. I am personally far more concerned for you than for Todd.”
http://charismamag.com/index.php/component/content/article/20035
Scott-
“Break, one-nine, for a radio-check…”
10-4 Good Buddy, put the hammer down! We got a convoy!
Uhhh, you ain’t a smokey, is ya?
Now things get interesting…
Grady took the hypocritical, scripture twisting curs out at the knees and now the bullies want a brawl.
Joyner and Bentley need to go down hard…
I need to repent…I want a piece of this fight sooooo bad…
Michael-
When Joyner writes “What moves of God have you led?”, that’s quite a presumption that the ‘move’ was authentic, and also presumptive that ‘we’ lead moves of God.
PN,
They’re playing their cards really early…sign of panic.
I agree…it has all the earmarks of ‘don’t touch God’s anointed’; but what if the anointing came from elsewhere…?
Blue coats, grey coats, self-fulfilling prophecy.
I can’t wait to read Grady’s response
PN,
I have no doubt…may God take them all the way down.
who gives anyone the authority to question? God! Including little ole me. And it’s not my authority. It’s my responsibility.
shame on them for requiring credentials - they’d better have a soft and ready answer for what they’re doing and their ‘tude kind of gives them away IMO
can anyone follow the money so far BTW?
PN, that’s the point I was trying to make today. If Bentley is just going to be restored to what he was doing before, what kind of change is that?
I’m still waiting for all those medically verifiable resurrections and physical healings. What the number of resurrections up too before he left for a little R&R with Jessa, 34?
I think the reporter from ABC only asked for 3.
My remarks should have been clearer that I was addressing what I see of a movement-so-called. The repentance factor has been very adequately addressed here. Your private life is between you and God…if you keep it so.
Todd will be resurrection #35..
I read the link Scott posted. Some things I really don’t get. Pretty soon TBN will be our example of how to do things.
Think of what could be done in the name of Jesus with the money these charlatans rake in. So many hurting people in this world. Don’t these people even care? No wonder so many mock our faith. I see enough of this in the world and the fact I see the same in the name of Jesus puts a knot in my stomach.
Scott-
I haven’t been around to follow this, but isn’t TB divorcing his wife to ’specifically’ marry the women he committed adultery with?
I know folks have different takes on remarriage, but I thought I read a study where the original Greek specifically states that one cannot divorce “in order to marry another”.
How can he possibly be restored to ministry when he hasn’t even been restored in his marriage?
PN, that’s whole other subject that really has not been addressed at length here, yet.
this face-saving business will cost everyone who lines up with “Bentleg the Pirate” what little credibility they had left.
walkdeplankfil
Oh, okay Scott. I can’t conceive of how anyone can seriously be considered for restoration to ministry while their personal relationships are in disarray.
(not that you can, I’m just making a general statement)
Erunner-
I totally agree. How these guys can recite scripture all day, then turn around and do their ’sales pitch’ is beyond me.
I guess it’s just a script to them.
I saw a guy the other night telling people even if they were down to nothing, send in whatever they had “so they could be blessed by God”…
Now I know why all these shysters have security guards…
“Bentleg the Pirate”
walkdeplankfil,
We pirates have much more honor than Bentley. Please don’t insult us by association.
Krazy Kaptain Kevin
> I read the link Scott posted. Some things I really don’t get. Pretty soon TBN will be our example of how to do things.
TBN? What’s that? Todd Bentley Network?
Joyner’s response to Lee Grady spoke volumes. Joyner came across as a bully.
Is this really Buster? What the hay? Hello! Buster!
Who is Joyner to point the finger at Grady? Has he ever walked in Grady’s shoes? Maybe the pressure of being a Christian Magazine Editor just got the best of him.
You know, there’s a history of Christian Editor “Burn out.” Oh yeah, it’s happened to Editors much better and notable than Grady.
For Joyner to point the finger at Grady is un-christian, judgmental and self-righteous. Grady could just be walking through the dark night of editorial soul!
This Anti-Grady criticism has got to stop! If not, I may have to write an editorial, and Joyner just might not like it!
:tongueincheek:
The only movement these guys have been a part of are of the ‘bowel’ variety.
Noooooooo!
Not the potty jokes!
Where’s Steve?
Potty Jokes????
I thought I was making a deep theological statement relevant to Todd, Joyner et al.
http://api.ning.com/files/5lLMNkrpfQKYNiklGCGaUw0r7EXQhhHYSwrxgj-PE24UpUaMxpNp0fPEFVrPZgJvjVbwvEQqoq9Ru9dqHRPE7OjcG1K4lbRj/potty002.jpg
I’ll let you guys come up with a caption for this one.
http://api.ning.com/files/5lLMNkrpfQKYNiklGCGaUw0r7EXQhhHYSwrxgj-PE24UpUaMxpNp0fPEFVrPZgJvjVbwvEQqoq9Ru9dqHRPE7OjcG1K4lbRj/potty002.jpg
I’ll let you guys pic the caption for this one.
Hey, Scott.
It’s a different Buster.
New Buster, thanks for your comments…would you be so kind as to come back again, and take a new name since Buster is already reserved?
Gracias, BrianD. I was thinking it was the old school Buster!
How about that Big East Tournament, eh?
Is Syracuse still playing?
If my team loses to them tonight, I’ll be disappointed, but not surprised.
I gotta get to sleep…long day ahead of me tomorrow.
Later.
Please, dear family…
Let us remember to pray for one another.
These things can be extremely taxing.
I am loving you all in prayer tonight.
Nomans
Good night, BrianD!
The economic times are really hitting my students hard. Personally I am trying hard to walk away from this entire type of work as it just is constant emotionally draining. It should not be, but it effects me. One of the folks passed real sudden and a few others are quite ill and may well pass soon. I really struggle with this. I try not to show grief nor feel it. I try very hard not to “feel” (period). I understand one should not ever need, not ever. I just have not reached that level of complete autonomy.
Remember to pray for Alan…
And our Michael, Dusty, Brian, Tony & Sarah.
There are so many needs right now.
So many hurting, suffering.
Let us learn to truly hold one another up in prayer…
Even at a cost.
Father, teach us to pray in a way the reflects Your Kingdom.
Selah.
Brian
Praying for your students…
And you.
Wow…
I don’t know what I expected from Rick Joyner but that wasn’t it. However, I say that it is good that there is finally some open talking.
Note the immediate self-righteousness card…
Anyway this has real potential to be good.
I look forward to the weekly fireside chats
Abe, “It’s hard to keep a good man down.”
Kapt Kevin, I thought the Pirates would adopt him…my bad. Maybe “Bentleg the Yoga Instructor” will work.
A Hawk, throw a rock in a pack of dogs and the one who yelps got hit. May his number increase. Did Joyner underestimate everything that badly?
I would also ask for prayer for me to seek to be holy and stop being a whiner. I really want to suck it up and be a rock for others. Well actually a grain of sand on the real Rock. I think you get my point. I know what a sinner I am, and at times a complete hypocrite.
2 Cor 2:9-11
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
Well
A big test is ahead for all of us… will we learn from one another?
I am already gaining perspective from all the input of others.
An Aside living with some really difficult issues that tend to come to light in the real world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-QG5vD8W44&feature=related
Personally I would melt into oblivion if I ever had to even walk a minute in the steps of any in these videos. I ti snot easy not at all. No simple apologetic. Real life is much more complex.
I just read the response by RJ. He reminds me of something I was told (sarcastically) years ago.
When accused of wrong doing, especially if you are actually guilty do the following:
1. Deny any knowledge of the accusation. “I don’t think I know/understand what you are talking about.”
2. Confuse the accusation with obscure fact or miss-direction. “Let me see what you are saying is this… but look at how many people were affected in a positive.”
3. Counter attack. “I can’t believe a man/woman in your position would even consider laying such an accusation on a person like me…”
RJ went right for number 3!
Alan,
Thank you. There is a whole lot of truth in the things you have written. You are going to take the blinders off of a lot of people’s eyes because of what you have written.
What Joyner wrote attacking Grady is nothing less than a reflection upon Joyner’s character. Joyner’s stating that Grady doesn’t have the “credentials” to judge whether or not it is a godly thing to attempt to restore a man quickly to ministry who is living in adultery, and calling TB’s new relationship making “appropriate” an “unappropriate” relationship, would be laughable if so many people will not be hurt in the process of this restoration to ministry.
I do not believe that Joyner understands any of the points you have brought up in your post. His restoration of TB will be the blind leading the blind. In the end when TB is again unleashed, he will just end up further embarassing Joyner and tarnishing his name. “Chief” apostle TB will soon be on the scene again, it will be “TB the Sequel” and just more of the same coming to a city near you. Uggghhhhh.
BTW, expect Todd to have received even greater revelations than before. You can’t ever go backwards if you want to be successful in this business.
Drew, JimB,
Joyner is his own story in this debacle. He was the “behind the scenes” manager of Paul Cain’s sordid career and moves toward charismatic celebrity like ants at a picnic. He tried to “move” in on John Wimber but JW recognized the profile. He slinked on over to the Toronto action until that fell apart and is now on TB’s illustrious team. Alan is his worst nightmare and it will be interesting to watch RJ dance around the God factor in all of this. The Holy Spirit is very much in this rebuke.
Still dont know who any of the players are in this game. Other than Alan and TB. Growing up in my little Lutheran bubble, we never had Prophets or Evangelists coming through, nor revivals. Just boring ol fellowship and the cross. Didnt really even know much of what the Pastor thought of things. He just taught the law and gospel week in and week out.
What makes it so hard for those of us who value peace in the Body of Christ is processing how “false” the falsehood is with these guys. With TB, Joyner, Cain and company it is false inspiration, false proclamation cemented by false application. The people who believe the “personal words” of prophecy delivered by these men often walk away toward ruination and disappointment. After visits from these men it took our pastors 2 years to clean up the mess left in their wake. Young people were told horrific lies as though God Himself were directing their lives. People moved across continents, quit their jobs, married and divorced based on false prophecies. Now, look up all the texts that decree God’s feelings and attitude toward false prophets and you get the proper perspective that explains why they must be dealt with so harshly.
The problem is people LOVE false prophets. They defend them to the death. We have been talking about one here who has repeatedly say the Lord said, and it did not come to pass. Yet they get thier ears tickled and tell us to gleen the truth, that they arent false prophets who will say God said when he did not.
Either Todd Bentley and David Wilkerson ARE false prophets, or God no longer requires perfection from those who will use His good name to declare thier lies to the body.
And those who blindly defend David Wilkerson and His Lies from hell, are just as Culpable as those who defend Todd Bentley. They just dont get called on it because David Wilkerson is closer to the Evangelical norm than Todd Bentley.
Eric,
I think you’re right…I wish people knew the kind of terror filled emails that I’ve received since Wilkersons prophecy.
This stuff messes people up badly.
Eric,
You nailed it! It is not until we understand the extent of the darkness and deception that these people, even unknowingly, bring to the lives of believers, we will not know how to defend against it.
mebbe…dunno…there is a need for some sound teaching on the term prophecy, it’s use and misuse, in all of the church meetings that are honest in teaching. It looks like there is another wave of mystical magic messages coming… I suspect, for some it’s just their way of conducting themselves - deluded or innocent? dunno that either…
I’m not Grady, but my answer would be this:
When I’m used to plant a seed…that’s a move of God
When I’m used to water a seed…that’s a move of God
When I’m used by God to bring a seed to fruition…that’s a move of God
Ordinary Christians take part in a move God all the time. Joyner can blow it out his tail pipe.
It is really hard to have a decent discussion in the light when from the start you are painted into a dark corner and not allowed to step out of that corner do have a discussion with statements like this:
“And those who blindly defend David Wilkerson and His Lies from hell, are just as Culpable as those who defend Todd Bentley. ”
I have a consistent pattern of posts that have opened the door to rightly critique and rebuke DW and learn from this.
One of the things that I have learned in ministry is to be careful when you envision yourself as the only one or one of a select few that are protecting the innocent ones from lies or you alone have the right perspective.
The enemy has many ways of slowly getting us to isolate yourselves.
Could I get a discussion and not a reaction?
”
I think you’re right…I wish people knew the kind of terror filled emails that I’ve received since Wilkersons prophecy.
This stuff messes people up badly.”
One of the reasons I would like a discussion is the fact that I know firsthand what you are talking about. I have helped people by the grace of God to be led out of such fears into a steadfast peace of God.
But reactions prevent like minded brothers from banding together.
vic,
You have a point and I have heard your heart on this matter.
Unfortunately, I also am dealing with the fallout of this prophecy and frankly, I’m not real happy about it.
No matter what biblical framework I try to draw for folks, “prophecy” always trumps exegesis.
Vic, I just put what Wilkerson has said about the future on the shelf. I still think that having some supplies stored up in the event of a national emergency is good wisdom, whether Piper agrees with it or not
I’ll take the totality of Wilkerson’s life in the labor of the gospel for almost 50 years over the flash in the pan puppies like Bentley any day of the week. The comparison is weak.
Eric,
You described me.
Hearing the law and gospel regularly, “in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves,” receiving Christ’s absolution via various means of grace, the cross…there wouldn’t be anyone in my Lutheran church that knows about stuff on PP such as Bent Toddler, unless they’d been
through fundamentalism/evangelicalism.
Thuink waht you will Scott, and this is exactly what I am speaking too. You are Evangelical as is Vic, and your taking the Life of one who LIES in the name of and as speaking For GOD Himself will go unchallenged. We will gleen from out Todd Bentleys and rails against thiers.
A lie is a lie, and David Wilkerson doing what he has for the people of New York is great, but he is LYING in the name of allmighty GOD.
The things the Mormons do are great all over the world, they LIE as well in the name of almighty God.
I dont expect anyone to agree with me, but I cant just lie daown and shut up because it is you and Vic defending the liar, anymore than you would beack down id Alan was defending Todd.
Wilkerson is a fear monger and a liar, and the fact that he does it in the name of God is all the more despicable.
God is neither the author of fear, or of deciet.
Uchallenged was wrong it has been challenged before my mispeak gets me in trouble
Michael I am with you on that point. I have taken the shots on the chin and have been mocked, maligned and misunderstood in close relational quarters as a pastor doing exactly what you are doing now.
I am only trying to look at the other side of the same coin. Whether it me misrepresentations, misinterpretations or being unclear from Scripture, these things impact the flock negatively and can open the door for great damage.
I stand with you and will pray for you as you deal with this side of the coin.
My point on the other side is that we deal with the error and the man appropriately and in context. The sheep that are hurt are His as well as the minister who spoke them are His also.
Wilkerson and Bentley are worlds apart. I dealt with Bentley and his ministry on a local level years ago when he was an issue for those I ministered too and the community where I lived at the time.
I have dealt with the issues of prophecy and so called calls for revival that breed fear and demonstrate the hand of legalism and condemnation from misguided prophets young and old. I paid a price for doing what was right.
But the true foundation of Jesus Christ can be found there. That is the difference.
But I am and am still learning to learn to listen for the reality of that foundation of Christ and build upon or affirm that even when dealing with the fall out of that which is wrong and a misrepresentation of Him.
Michael, bless you and thanks for listening.
I now consider our short interaction as meaningful and worthy of being called a discussion.
I have been trying to listen to you as a pastor and a person who has a perspective because of history and a testimony in this.
Scott
I am planning on being in your town tomorrow evening. doing a gig with mansfield again at rcf. 7pm i think
Steve, “cause when the Lord get’s ready you gotta move, Heeeyey.”
Steve, I plan on coming out to see you. How will I recognize you on stage?
Question:
Does Gos till “speak” to people today? Does he individually “lead” us if so how do we know it’s Him? Should we pray for that
Michael would come up if he knew you Guys would play a couple of Jerry Lee Lewis tunes!
does it start at 7?
Im gonna be playing with him in the rv on tuesday at the bella union in jacksonville
michael
come on out
“Wilkerson and Bentley are worlds apart. I dealt with Bentley and his ministry on a local level years ago when he was an issue for those I ministered too and the community where I lived at the time.”
This is where we have a disconnect.
Bentleys words from God were built on a lie, Wilkersons words from God were built on a lie. How do you diferentiatie that? Other than you like Wilkerson and dont like Bentley?
Both built a message on a lie, the Builder was not God and the Foundations are Satanic. Christ said you are either for me or agin me. Either God is speaking or the other one. We know Satan is the Father of lies, and both these men have made careers on thier lies.
Wilkerson has a long patern of False prophecy. Decades long, yet he is defended because he is like you. Bentley has a career built on false prophecy. Now you can talk of all the good Todd Bentleys ministry did in Uganda, or you can speak of all the Good Wilkersons ministry has done in New york. However, just because God makes good things happen in both instances does not mean the men themselves are not False Prophets.
Wilkerson lies in the name of God. He has for Decades, and he gets a pass based on his good works. I am absolutely disgusted.
Steve, yes, it does start at 7:00 pm.
Anyways, I’ll see ya there Steve, unless something comes up. Have a great day ya’ll!
Be blessed in the Lord!
Eric…just on the surface can I throw something out. I honestly have not paid much attention to Wilkerson over the years, so this might be wrong…
It seems that Bentley was operating in clear deception, intentional, through the Lakeland time. I mean in the sense of his personal life…he was having an affair and still operating in a ministry. I honestly have no idea if he believed in what he was doing…or if it really was all just about money.
I don’t know much about Wilkerson, but is it possible that the reason some are more open to him is because he seems to be sincere in the ministry? That doesn’t excuse his false prophecies…but possibly he truly believes what he is presenting.
So it is the difference between one who is manipulative and arrogant and one who is sincere but misguided?
Just an observation…
Sarah,
The Mormons truly believe as well. Do they get a pass for good intentions. God is clear on False Prophets, sadly His people dont seem to worry about what GOd has already said. Better to get thier ears tickled with what He absolutely hasnt
I think Sarah has a point…we ascribe sincere motives to Wilkerson because he has said and done some very good things.
Eric is also correct in that we have given him pretty much a free pass to tell us his nightmares in the form of prophecy without rebuke.
Alright Eric. You win. I’m not up for beating each other over the head.
The interesting (and troubling) aspect of this to me is that if any of these issues had arisen in a Puritan church two or three hundred years ago the church members would have been theologically equipped to deal with them soberly.
Not so today…
Sarah,
This inst one of those petty things where it is about winning. This is a fight for the Truth of Gods word. God has said not to listen to false prophets. Yet we have been told to gleen the truth from something that is based soley on a lie.
Honestly, dont care about winning, I care about all the people in churches hearing false prophecies because we have become gutless to call a spade a spade as a church today.
We attack the wierdos and give passes to those who look like us, and I cant see God smiling and saying OOOH its ok, he meant well when he lied in My name. There is a Christ returning, and He isnt the mamby pamby pablum puking Christ of the modern Church, he is coming with a Sword and He is going to hold us accountable for every word we speak.
I will not be forced to give an account for not speaking against false prophets no matter how unpopular it makes me.
This goes beyond debate and right into the church of Laodicea
Eric, I never said that I agreed with Wilkerson. I don’t.
I was just trying to understand why we treat him differently.
Eric, “Yet we have been told to gleen the truth from something that is based soley on a lie.”
I never said that. But you have several times. It is hard to have a discussion with you because you misrepresent those trying to have the discussion with you.
Do your work of ministry as you see fit. But you are steamrolling over people as you do it.
Eric,
I agree with you in the main.
However…I think the place where our passion makes us hard to hear is when we use loaded words like “lie” because they ascribe motives we can’t be sure of.
Let’s be gracious to each other as we work through these difficult issues.
Lets talk about this from a different angle…
I believe one of the reasons it’s easy to accept Wilkerson is that he is saying that our “enemies” are going to get toasted.
Just like the sons of thunder who Jesus rebuked for wanting to call down fire, we prefer incineration over evangelism…
I plead guilty…
We feel powerless and thus are appealing to God to move in power…destructive power…
Michael:
”
The interesting (and troubling) aspect of this to me is that if any of these issues had arisen in a Puritan church two or three hundred years ago the church members would have been theologically equipped to deal with them soberly.
Not so today…”
The beauty is that God knows and understands the environment and where our starting point is in which we minister today.
We do not need to make it like yesterday. We only need to make more room for Jesus in the today and the todays that we will face in our race and realm of accountability that we encounter over the course of our lives and those we intersect with in serving Jesus.
Not trying to lessen the weight or depth of responsibility and the goal and vision of what we are trying to develop. Just trying to narrow our focus and lessen unnecessary loads.
vic,
Have you noticed as well that our people actually are terrified by the Blessed Hope?
Vic your right, you didnt use the term Gleen. But that we are to search prophecies and hold what is true.
Sorry bro, but in my world if its called a prophecy it better all bbe true.
Either way, I will now remove myself from this discussion. I cannot stop calling a lie from hell what it is. And a flase prophecy is exactly that, a lie from satan serving satans purpose.
I cant examine a lie from hell to see what is true, nor can I call a false prophet anything other than what he is. a liar serving satan.
BTW
I reposted my question on the “open Blogging” thread
Michael, I do not see Wilkerson pleading down fire on our enemies.
I see a man of God like you and I prone to join the local chapter of the Sons of Thunder in the name of Jesus. That was tongue in cheek by the way.
I see a man unclear in his thinking (in terms of interpretation and declaration) not quite knowing what to do with his dream. But I see the man growing (yes, he has not clearly and publicly repented)in applying his dream in a biblical way.
In his latest round I see his dream combined with a pastoral recognition and exhortation of God’s love and protection.
Content wise,Wilkerson mentions riots.
Riots have happened, are happening and most likely will happen again. We are a society in conflict with people under stress and with worldviews colliding and a government undergoing a fundamental radical shift. We have been a culture for some time that has seen the removal of and the complete marginalization of the role of Fathers where it does exist.
Those are ingredients for riots.
I literally watched first hand the Seattle riots start while standing there praying and looking for a door to preach peace in the name of Christ.
I watched those riots continue first hand for a week. Yeah tree hugging Seattle had riots. Thank God that the godly man that Eric just voted for was Sheriff of King County at the time.
Yes riots are a result of the raging sin and anger ruling in men’s hearts that spill out into collective mob actions. Satan loves to pour additional fuels upon such outbursts to further the destruction.
My point. If we see these things we need to remain in His peace in trying times. One way I see God communicating to us in our todays that He is on the throne is reminding us of storms before they come in order for us to remain in the strong peace of Christ and be opened to good works in the broad wisdom He supplies should we ask.
This is the basis of a critique of David Wilkerson from my point of view. I can still minister to those who have interpreted DW rightfully so it in a frightful light and our confused and scared as a result. I can validate their experience of wrong while in another arena trying to hold on to and affirm the good.
In doing so I believe the door remains open to bring needed correction that should follow and accompany rebuke.
Thanks for listening,
Michael, up until now I have not heard nor seen that people are afraid of the Blessed Hope. But I will listen for that and ask for such discernment.
Maybe because I have heard too many people apply the rapture as the great escape as a panacea to avoid some real discussion like we are having now.
Eric was Peter a liar serving Satan in the moment when he sought to correct Jesus or was he a confused man in Christ momentarily influenced by a delusion of the enemy that appealed to his flesh?
vic,
You are a very gracious man…and we need more like you to balance out folks like me.
Victorious’ post has me thinking…in my lifetime there has never been such unrest and seeming disorganization in the population of the world. I don’t believe I can remember family now gone ever discussing such a time. There was the depression before WW2 and then the war. But they were discussed in terms of coping mostly.
One thing the Lute’s can rightly accuse is the tendency of the “disorganized” Church to promote to prominence and leadership unqualified personalities. Maybe good and sincere Christians, maybe not, but still they get undeserved positions of prominence by dint of personality/magnetism. A position of prominence that should be as rare as…hen’s teeth?
again…IMNSHO
Michael, thanks. You see me trying to follow and pursue grace and peace only because of my past and because He persists….
vic,
As much as I enjoy thunder (and I do) you have chosen the better path and the one I usually end up on when the storm passes.
I think the text of Joyner’s rejoinder belongs in this thread….
Rick Joyner of Morningstar Ministries sent this response on March 12, 2009)
Lee, I think what you call “the Lakeland disaster” would be disputed by multitudes of people who got healed or touched there. If you are such judge of this what gives you the credentials? What moves of God have you led? What have you built? Paul the apostle claimed to have authority for building and for tearing down, but what gives you authority to tear down the work of others is having built something yourself.
I, Todd, Bill and Jack all know this is a very serious matter, and are treating it as such. I am deeply offended that you would call our work “a travesty.” The Lord had far more grace for sinners than for the self-righteous, who He had no grace for at all. I am personally far more concerned for you than for Todd.
Lee, I love some of the things you write, but I also feel that some are straight from the mouth of the accuser. I do think you have done at least as much damage to the church as Todd’s fall has by your unrighteous and unfair judgments. I don’t think you have earned the credentials for it, and you’re putting yourself in far more jeopardy by trying to be such a self-appointed judge.
I’m quite sure you will misunderstand what I’m saying, and I’m definitely not implying that we want to cover anything up, or promote cheap grace. We have just started the process and its being judged negatively. Give us some time, and some grace. Grace is, by the way, something we are supposed to be giving to each other.
If you care to follow this, Todd and I will be doing Video Special Bulleting each week that will be posted on our website, U-Tube, and carried by many others. These will be short, like the first, only about 10 minutes, but we want to cover the mistakes Todd has made, and as much as we can in the time we have, how he fell into some of the traps he did, strictly for helping others to not have to go through what Todd has. He will no doubt be doing a lot of public apologizing during this time because the public deserves these apologies.
I think you owe Todd, myself, Bill, and Jack apologies for your presumptuous judgments. I think they should be as public as this letter was. If not, I feel that I will have to address this publicly, and I don’t think that is in your best interest.
I also think you need to come down and spend some time with Todd and me. If you have problems with someone we have Matt.18 as a guide to how we should deal with them. Read the first part of that chapter. This was given to help protect people from becoming stumbling blocks, which the Lord made quite clear was something we do not want to be. If you think being a journalist exempts you from complying with Scripture, I would like to know what philosophy you have bought into that trumps Scripture.
Sorry if this comes across as harsh. I don’t mean for it too but I am quite busy and just don’t have the time that I would like to maybe be a bit more tactful.
Bottom line…
The letter is an attempt at intimidation with some worn out techniques. “Who do you think you are?” “Jesus hates self-righteous folk,” “You’ll answer for what you are doing.” and “I don’t mean to be so harsh but I am busy and you ticked me off.” That was about the measure of it.
It came down to one thing: INTIMIDATION not moral argument or reasoned appeal or defusing or just silence. No, it is simple intimidation. I suspect that is why Charisma published it. Soon we will hear how this was private correspondence. Either way, it is bullying.
Thank God David, whom they always appeal to, did not do that to Nathan… but Ahab on the other hand ….well you know.
Pastor Hawkins, no comments called for from me, but I am praying that the unlogic of Joyner’s “thinking” and “feeling” is somehow isolated from the Church. But if he is in a Balaam moment, praying for God to provide an ass to straighten him up.
Hee Haw….
Pastor Hawkins! I did not mean you! ! !
Ah but it was so appropriate….
LOL
Here are a few statements from one of the comments to Lee Grady’s post (found at http://charismamag.com/index.php/fire-in-my-bones/20005-the-tragic-scandal-of-greasy-grace )
==========================================
Bachman this is still affecting the church and the community he left behind. Not only did Todd divorce Shonnah and the children, he divorced Fresh Fire Ministry, the leadership, the associates and interns, the church base, and all his employees. There are many wounded here in Abbotsford and Canada.
…
Our church is the laughingstock of our community thanks to Todd. FFM supporters are not speaking to friends and neighbors who belong to other denominations who wonder what happened. All of this has caused great division and harm to our community. No one is here helping us get over this.
…
Many employees lost their jobs or left in indignation. Some still have not found employment and are struggling. Where is the financial support for them? Where is the love for all the broken, hurting people left at home?
It is easy to apologize over the impersonal internet. I invite Todd to come back home and apologize in person to all the people he has wounded. Then he should carry on to Sechelt and apologize to that community as well.
Todd says he has visa problems…
This has been given as the reason that..
1. He went months without seeing his kids
2. 9 months passed before the restoration process began…giving Todd time to divorce and remarry….
Some questions…
1. Is it true that Todd made divorce/remarriage a precondition of his own restoration?
2. What is the nature of the visa problems in question? It appears his problems may involve the fact that if he leaves the country he might have problems getting back in. If that is true then why did he choose to stay here than to go back and see his kids.
3. The video indicated that he still has problems. If so, then why did he move now to NC when we were told that he stayed in CA in order to avoid changing immigration offices. So, why is he moved now? Didn’t he have to change immigration offices now?
When your character goes sideways you cannot avoid being open to more questions that you want to answer.
ROTFLMHO!!!!!!!!
Alan,
Great questions! I wish Lee Grady would have asked these types of questions. They need to be asked and answered. We should not take anything Joyner says at face value but rather investigate. The media (which Todd welcomed so enthusiastically at Lakeland) would do no less.
This is an honest question: Why is that any of your business?
What is it in your divinely assigned sphere of authority that requires you to demand answers to those questions?
Who are you that anyone involved in TB’s life should owe you answers to those questions?
Aren’t you just a self-appointed SOTK (sheriff of the kingdom)?
I’m not sure they owe you answers to your questions any more than you owe me answers to mine.
I ask because I’m just curious and want to learn how you think, since I might grow thereby.
I’m not sure why you ask.
They deserve to be asked and answered because this was a fraud and crime against the entire church and the entire church deserves answers.
It puzzles me that anyone who stands up and presents themself (selves?) as public ministers of holy things should take umbrage at having their lives examined. Top to bottom, inside and out…the only exceptions being the condition of your teeth and your digestion IMHO
Devotee Skip
I am assuming you are talking to me… or in the words of Taxi Cab De Niro…”You talkin’ to me?” I WILL USE CAPS TO DISTINGUISH YOUR QUESTION AND MY ANSWER
This is an honest question: Why is that any of your business?
BECAUSE I AM A MEMBER OF THE REVIVAL ALLIANCE: OR I SHOULD SAY THAT I AM AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF GLOBAL AWAKENING…AS SUCH THE PEOPLE IN MY CHURCH ARE ACTIVE IN THE CIRCLES OF THESE LEADERS. THIS IS MY TRIBE.
What is it in your divinely assigned sphere of authority that requires you to demand answers to those questions?
ABOUT THE SAME AS YOURS TO ASK ME THESE QUESTIONS… I CARE ABOUT THIS MATTER…YOUR WORD ‘DEMAND’ IS PRESUMPTUOUS IN THAT I CANNOT DEMAND ANYTHING AND THE ONLY THING LIKELY TO HAPPEN FROM MY ASKING THESE QUESTIONS IS MY OWN MARGINALIZATION. MY DIVINE SPHERE OF AUTHORITY IS PASTOR OF A LOCAL CHURCH AND ADVISER TO OTHER LEADERS.
Who are you that anyone involved in TB’s life should owe you answers to those questions?
NO ONE OWES ME ANYTHING. BUT THEY ARE BEING VERY PUBLIC IN THEIR ACTIONS AS IF THEY WANT APPROVAL. THEREFORE ALL KINDS OF FEEDBACK ARE BOTH WARRANTED AND USEFUL. (OBVIOUSLY I HAVE DECIDED NOT TO SHIELD WHO I AM)
Aren’t you just a self-appointed SOTK (sheriff of the kingdom)?
SOMEONE PUT AN IDEA IN YOUR HEAD AND I THINK I KNOW WHO…OR NOT.
SELF-APPOINTED? YES PRETTY MUCH, SO THEY CAN IGNORE ME, RESTORE ME, MARGINALIZE ME, REBUKE ME OR HEAR ME.
I’m not sure they owe you answers to your questions any more than you owe me answers to mine.
BUT I DO NOT MIND ANSWERING AND HAVING MY ANSWERS CRITIQUED.
I ask because I’m just curious and want to learn how you think, since I might grow thereby.
THE INSANITY OF THINKING THAT YOU(YOU BEING RICK JOYNER) CAN POST A STATEMENT, OR A VIDEO …LEAVING SCORES OF UNANSWERED QUESTIONS AND NOT RECEIVE SOME PUSH BACK IS NAIVE AT BEST. MY FIRST ACTION WAS TO WRITE A DIRECT LETTER TO RICK JOYNER WHICH I WOULD BE GLAD TO POST BUT DID NOT BECAUSE I WANTED TO GET AN ANSWER FROM HIM IF POSSIBLE. ONE ASSUMES THAT WHEN SOMEONE IS TRYING TO SHAPE YOUR THINKING BY THEIR STATEMENTS THAT YOU ARE WELCOME TO RESPOND. USUALLY THAT RESULTS IN A FORM LETTER… WHICH I RECEIVED.
NOW SKIP,
I don’t even know if you are talking to me, but my questions had the closest proximity to yours… I am glad to talk openly about anything to do with this.
I’m not sure why you ask.
NOW YOU HAVE CLARITY.
PS…. I TAKE NOTE THAT THE REAL QUESTION IS THIS…’WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE ALAN HAWKINS?’ IT IS THE SAME CHALLENGE THAT RICK JOYNER PUT TO LEE GRADY.
SHALOM
I was not speaking to you specifically, AH, just to the questioners in general, but your answer is commendably full-bodied and generously worded.
I rarely anymore take any sort of Internet jabs at anyone by name.
Based solely on what you have noted concerning your role, it seems to me that your sphere includes speaking upward within the alliance to influence the alliance to take an appropriate corporate stand. By publicly identifying yourself as a member, it could be suggested that you may risk engendering the grave misunderstanding that you are speaking for the alliance.
If you are concerned about those in your charge, it seems to me that you should be speaking directly to them.
I heard RJ in person in 1991 at a leadership conference in Gettysburg PA, and he spoke to us even then about Gettysburg being the “high water mark” of the Confederacy and the analogy to dynamics in the Body.
(On an unrelated personal note, Lurton Dunham Ingersoll wrote in 1866 in “Iowa and the Rebellion” that Charles Asmussen “did more than any other one man in gaining the great victory of Gettysburg.” Asmussen, my great-great grandfather, is seated at top in my gravatar, and seated at the bottom of the picture is the guy on the $50 bill.)
I do not understand how anyone could doubt RJ’s Civil War prophecy any longer. Obviously, many challenge the specific metaphor and its implications.
But it rages here, and, thanks to fine gentleman such as yourself and others, with as much civility and potential for constructive result as anywhere, I am confident.
Would to God that I did speak for them…
But alas, I have no delusions …I speak for the shrinking circle of myself… blessings to you Skip the Devotee…you represent myriads.
Gracias, AH.
I was born astride the Mason-Dixon line, and philosophically I still am, but almost all my weight is on the northern foot.
I like the Blue-Gray analogy.
Remember, even today many think that the South, although wrong on slavery, was overall the more Christian and arguably “right” side.
But the Blue side includes RH Brown, who would talk about turning off one’s mind (”gray matter”).
In general it could be said that the Gray side emphasizes sound thinking while the Blue side emphasizes hearing from the “blue” heavens. Or, one could say, careful and responsible application of scripture versus wacky revelation.
It is a great challenge to define the differences without imparting our personal bias and hurt feelings, etc., but IMHO what fun it is to try to frame this thing in a truly fair and impartial way.
I have not met a Blue that does not accept the Grays as genuine believers. The converse of course is far from true. Most Grays seem to want the Blues to repent and be truly saved by becoming Grays.
Skip…what are you smoking?
Skip’s been smoking the Crowder blue-light special
Not sure I understand your question, AH, but -
I know you have some of the nastiest guitar pickers in New Mexico at your place.
They’re good. Real good.
But let’s face it, AJ has Leonard Jones and Ricky Skaggs.
Ricky Skaggs!
What I’m saying is, Are you sure there’s not just a little bit of musician jealousy behind your hard feelings about RJ?
Skips 4:21 needs an interpretation!
I dont know what all that menat.
I do have a prophecy however.
In coming days, all this crap will burn up. The infighting the charlatans, all gone. Not for lack of trying but for the trying times. There will no longer be millions to be made from fleecing the sheep of Christ. And only those who truly are the people of the book will be focused upon it. Mega churches will be trod usunder, and the faithful will be focused on the one true God and have thier eyes removed from the fallen men who claim His name.
at least I hope so. Didnt have a vison of this, it isnt a word from the Lord as far as I know. But it is my dream. Gods people so focused on His book that crap like this wont need to be discussed, because the people will actually know the word enough to recognize men who have given themselves over to the lusts of the flesh like Todd Bentley has. Who know Gods own commands on Adultery enough to know this is not what a minister of the Gospel could do, let alone would do. This stuff is what happens when the bible is used to hold the sheet for notes instead of learning more of the lover of your soul.
Huh, I thought Ricky Skaggs went to our church…Ed Stetzer said something about it.
But, yeah….Skip’s a little off topic tonight.
Eric.
Do you not believe in the prophetic? Are you a cessationist?
Just curious.
Nope, I am not a cessationist. I believe the gifts are for today, and I believe they are normative. I am not in Concord with the Lutheran church on this. I believe in the Gift of Tongues and Prophecy just as I do the Gift of Giving and prayer, I think all of the Gifts are active until that which is perfect has come, and I can only see that Being the second coming of Jesus Christ our Lord in power and glory.
But, well anyway, I have also gone over what I believe the biblical requirements for prophecy. And most people who take upon themselves the mantle of prophet dont meet it as far as I can see.
I see.
Thank you for responding Eric
It is a challenge, isn’t it…
When we see the gifts abused, to remain clear and pure on the matter?
I clarified my post above as not being from the Lord as far as I knew, because it wasnt. Just looking at the economy and all. But actually the same type of thieves were active in the middle ages when the people were poor, and they got fat off the backs of the faithful. Then they were popes and bishops of Rome, today they are “Prophets” and “Apostles” or other self made business men selling Indulgences in the form of thier anointings and prayers.
Just as In Martin Luthers day, and once again, God will not be mocked and a Reformation is necessary.
Alan has called out Tetzel, he can expect the Popes to send thier minions to silence or destroy him.
Those who fail to look to History are doomed to repeat it.
“…today they are “Prophets” and “Apostles” or other self made business men selling Indulgences in the form of thier anointings and prayers.”
Eric, don’t forget to lump in some Pastors, Evangelists and Teachers too! You wanna make sure your pronouncements are fair & balanced!
Blue:
“It’s all about intimacy with Him. And that place of first love intimacy with Him is pure bliss.” John Crowder
Gray:
“It is that moral authority based on the Word of God and salted with humility and grace that we desperately need throughout the church today.” MN
Scott, that was the other self made business men. They arent called, and have no passion but to build their own St Peters in memorium to themselves.
The dates are different, the antichrists the same
Skip,
What bulls…
If you are so spiritually deceived that you believe we achieve intimacy with God by feigning intoxication and seeking the “anointing” from dead heretics graves you’re beyond help.
Grow up.
By the way you misjudged me earlier.
I don’t believe Bentley or Crowder are regenerate.
I think they’re devils.
You asked for it Skip. I was gonna say the same thing, just a lot nicer
Skip -
“I do not understand how anyone could doubt RJ’s Civil War prophecy any longer.”
I suggest it’s because the vast majority of the church of Jesus consider his prophecy to be completely false, self-serving, & irrelevant.
I’m sick and tired of these low brow, trailer park farces being passed off as the Christian faith.
It is a mockery of Christ and the faith that thousands shed their blood for.
To hell with these wolves.
Actually reading S the D’s posts here I think I understand a little better now lawdy, lawdy…
But, I thot Lincoln was on the penny? So you could check your tires…I actually do have a $50 bill right now. I’ll have to go look and see if it would work, too.
God keep all close
Scott,
We need to stop being nice and pray that God raise up men with the spiritual authority to turn these clowns over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.
what Michael said, Lord
Michael, by nice I meant tact.
Actually the comparissons are earily similar.In Luthers day, the people were biblically ignorant, not of their own accord, but because the antichrists in Rome kept them so. Today, they have made themselves antichrist and are biblically ignorant. Or worse yet, spit in the face of Biblical instruction and biblical truth in favor of experience.
All scripture is God breathed… but they seek after the breathe of thier god instead of devoting themselves to what God already breathed
Remember, I was the one who last week said that we should declare all of these guys to be non Christian and trade them off to the Buddhists for a box of incense.
Let them be someone else’s problem.
I have no problem if someone were to bring up the topic to me - what do you think of Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner et al? Just saying, “they aren’t Christians, so I really don’t know what they teach.”
And then I would follow up “check with the Buddhists, they know them better.”
I’m done with tact…these people are as deadly and contrived as any cult or false religion.
They take people away from truth and feed them full of lies.
Eric,
That was an excellent word…
Michael said “We need to stop being nice and pray that God raise up men with the spiritual authority to turn these clowns over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.”
From the cheep seats let me offer a way, cut off the money supply, that will kill it real quick. Because finances are the life blood of any ministry and it is, always has been, just cut off the funds. It will die with no mercy what so ever. The utter absolute worst sin an evangelical can commit is to not raise their budget. Dont believe me, dont raise your budget and see what happens, your gone with a vengeance.
Personally I wish no one delivered over to Satan, I understand this is a weakness on my part as I should be praying for eternal retaliation on those whom have wronged me. I cant seem to do that, a weakness and moral lacking on my part. I just want to be reconciled, another moral weakness on my part. I dont quite get that one but it is sure as gravity. Actually more sure. I can remember the first time I was delivered over to Satan, if I had a dime for every time, never mind. I was sad and afraid I did not wish to be a servant of Satan. Now I pay little attention to the voodoo magic spells of “true believers” basically they make me sick to my stomach and its time to grow up.
Skip,
I came from spending years attending 3 Morningstar satellite churches as well as the mother church itself. From Leonard Jones to the wild antics of Suzy Wills, I enjoyed most of it and it is hard to find talent like Leonard Jones or Ricky Skaggs (including his kids).
However, the folks at Alan Hawkin’s NLC (where I attend now) also have plenty of talent as well as home grown music. I must confess that my worship experience at NLC is more precious than it was at Morningstar.
I am repenting of my flippant remarks up the line - I think, perhaps, I see that I should be praying a little differently than I have been…these folks (whom I don’t know at all beyond the blog here) are seeing the criticisms of their actions as disrespectful of themselves as people. I don’t think they get it because they are reacting in pride. They may be just Christians acting stupid
with one exception…
at any rate, still praying…
Thanks for the comment, Ladis. How neat that you have that first-hand experience.
I must admit that what I see of Morningstar on TV looks more like a disco than a worship service, not really my personal taste, although I did like some of the music they have produced.