I am going to present the latest video propaganda from Rick Joyner concerning Todd Bentley's restoration with my comments.
I'm doing this not just to provide a polemic against the men involved, (though it will be that as well) but to give us an opportunity as a community to learn to recognize religious manipulation and spurious doctrines clothed in faux holiness.
We begin with Joyner speaking clearly that the objective is to "restore" Bentley to "ministry" with the assumption that the only issue is his adultery and abandonment of his family.
The issues of his compulsive lying, violence, and blasphemy are evidently not issues to these men…
Let's watch this first part, paying careful attention to Bill Johnsons "teaching".
Note first that Joyner has some bizarre concept of sin entering through "gates of hell" that need to be shut where sin comes in.
Where is that in the Bible?
Johnson then constructs a "teaching" on "mindsets"
There is the mindset of Herod and the mindset of the Pharisees, the former representing a "political spirit", the latter a "religious spirit".
This is contrasted with the "mindset of the Kingdom" which Johnson attributes to Christ.
According to Johnson your perspective on life is determined by which mindset you have.
Naturally if you don't support restoring Bentley you're either a Herodian or a Pharisee.
Johnson then gives a teaching on the woman caught in adultery where he says that when Jesus wrote in the sand it "released a grace into the atmosphere" that caused the bad guys to flee.
The implication being made is that any opposition to Bentley is graceless and opposed to the "mindset of the Kingdom".
It sounds really good…it sounds right.
It's a crock of scripture twisting excrement.
The problem here is that these teachings are…unique.
You will find no commentary or scholar that ever said anything similar in expositing these verses.
This is religious manipulation for the profit of the manipulators.
Lets go to the second part of the video.
Two things here…first the incredible manipulation of information concerning Shonna Bentley and the children.
How low can you go?
Next is the attempt to use Todd as a symbol for all those suffering the pain and stigma of divorce in the church.
It is evil, pure evil to present this fornicator /adulterer as a representative for those broken by the divorce epidemic.
If these spiritual bastards want to show how to restore victims, send Todd off to find a job and lets visit with Shonna and the kids every week.
You were just exposed to intense religious manipulation and Biblical abuse in these videos…how much did you catch and how much did it work?
a (now) old term that seems to be the tool here is “buzz-words.” The technique became a popular tool from the 1980s forward. God have mercy the man uses Biblical phrases and concepts out of context or worse as a sales tools?
God have mercy on us, that is…
Dude…where to begin?
First - I haven’t heard Bill Johnson speak too many times, but it sounds like he was ill. I hope he feels better soon.
But the content of what was said was deplorable.
“The last thing we want to do is compromise any biblical standard.” Sorry. If that were the case, this video series trying to explain the ‘restoration’ process wouldn’t be necessary at all. The fact is they *know* they are compromising a biblical standard & that’s why they have to defend it from all the critiques.
“Public sin needs a public restoration.” What about a public repentance? He’s still divorced from his wife & married to his mistress. Despite their protestations, there’s been *no* repentance as of yet…just a desire to move on.
And did anyone notice how manipulative they were with the idea of “punishment”? As if keeping TB out of ministry was some sort of “punishment” that is inflicted upon him. Since when is ministry a right? The last time I read my Bible, it seems to be a calling & a privilege. TB’s removal from ministry is a consequence of his sin; not a punishment. Taking him out back to stone him would be a punishment, for example. There’s nothing punitive about denying the pulpit to an unrepentant adulterer. At the most, this ought to be viewed as the chastisement of the Lord (and that’s if one is being generous), which is something to embrace; not deny, as Bill Johnson would have us do.
Other areas of manipulation:
- the “political spirit appears right when we’re not.” This of course assumes that *they* are the ones in the right & can determine when everyone else is in the wrong.
- “This isn’t just about Todd.” Of course it is; they wouldn’t be going through all this if it weren’t. But by making it about the untold masses, it pulls on people’s heartstrings to look beyond Todd’s individual sin.
- “We don’t want to gloss over anything.” They can say this as much as they want (and I lost count of how many times Joyner alluded to this), but it doesn’t make it true. They definitely want to avoid all consequences…which is the same as glossing over the sin.
Watching these videos is always a bit alarming to me. Here are guys who claim to be “apostles” & thousands of people look to them as Biblical experts. But their twisting of the Scriptures makes it plain they don’t understand them in the slightest. They rip texts out of their context & just stretch it to whatever seems appropriate at the time. It makes me think that less people are fooled by Oprah & Eckhart Tolle. At least they are obvious about their misuse of Scripture.
Tim,
That was excellent!
Those observations are exactly what we need to be doing as teachers in the Body of Christ to inoculate people against these hirelings.
Thank you!
Thanks & you’re welcome.
I don’t like how keeping Todd out of ministry is likened to “punishment” in part two….
Making one who is driven to protect Gods people from a liar out to be of a “pharisee” mindset.
This whole thing is so very sad.
the method of admitting wrong, even in the area of misspeaking about the ex-wife and kids last time, is sugar-coated and touted as an example of ‘openness.’ Slick, deceitful. BamBam’s non-verbal cues are very telling, in my opinion, especially the slouching, casual, light-hearted look. The other two seem to ‘get’ that this is a big deal. Bentley communicates a personal immaturity like a spoiled child. They are still reacting, there is no ‘plan.’
Restoration is one-dimensional, imho, for them…to ministry. Restoration to fatherhood, no. Restoration to marriage with the offended wife, no. Restoration to ministry, YES. If that is what passes for restoration in this circle, it’s all corrupt.
He wants to be a part of Shonnas healing.
I’m sorry…
SAY WHAT?
fil,
Excellent observations…it is indeed all corrupt for those reasons.
Nomans,
The way that Shonna and the children have been used in this debacle is sickening…
Do the terms “CASH COW, SAVING FACE and SPIN” come to mind?
They anointed this guy because they were making a fortune off of him.
Now they have to spin it to bring back the bucks and the glory.
I believe these messages are designed to keep their core followers in line and they will simply dismiss the naysayers. I’ve watched TBN do it as Paul Crouch calls hell fire down on his critics in the past.
And TBN continues to grow at an alarming rate. I suspect this movement won’t be too impacted by one adulterer. With economic times being tough what better time to get out there with the give to get message that proves nothing is new under the sun. Players change as time moves on, the message is repackaged, and gullible folks eat it up.
Imagine the untold millions these shysters receive in the hands of those in the body who would put them to good use. I can only imagine.
I still don’t get why they think they need a “public” restoration?
Since when is the process of restoration public? The end result may very well be public, but in a situation like this I would think the restoration process would be intensely personal, not something you would want to share with the public at large.
From my uninformed position, it seems that restoration would happen in this order:
1. Repentance and personal restoration to fellowship with the Lord.
2. Restoration in marriage (if a marriage had been torn apart).
3. Restoration to fellowship.
4. Restoration to ministry/service.
The first three could probably run somewhat concurrently, once the first step was underway. The last step would take a long time to complete, if ever, depending on exactly where the person was being restored to. I’m sure there are areas that fallen leaders could serve while being restored (cleaning, setting up, ushering, helping with events, etc).
If TB and his “handlers” want to make this a public thing, then they need to stop white washing it and deal with the real issues. TB needs to be willing to frankly, honestly, and without DEFENSE take responsibility for his actions, and the consequences.
Within the narrow confines of his failed marriage, he needs to acknowledge that he is 100% responsible for his failings. He doesn’t even need to mention, hint at, or otherwise imply anything about his wife’s contributions to the failure.
I’m not holding his wife blameless here - I’m simply stating that, from my perspective (and given what I have and am going through I think I can speak with some degree of experience and first-hand knowledge) that nothing good will come out of his saying “Yes, I did this or that, but my wife did that or this.”
The second you do that, especially when the other person is not present to present their side, you run the very high risk of cheapening your apology, or more importantly justifying your actions and giving, at the least, the appearance of not truly owning or even understanding your shortcomings.
At the end of the day, the only person you can control is yourself. Yes, people in your life, especially your spouse, can make it easier or harder for you - but what they do or don’t do does NOT change what your position in Christ is, nor how you should act.
What TB needs, IMO, is godly sorrow. He needs to be absolutely sick at the things he has done - even if they were done in ignorance or through no ill-will. I recently had a counselor ask me that, in regards to my marriage - if I was sick over anything I had done. Yes…many, many things.
It’s not a pleasant thing to go through…and it’s certainly not something I would want to share with the public at large. But it is only at that point will you be broken enough to finally surrender to God and allow Him to do that which you have been unable to do.
Unfortunately, I don’t see any of that in Todd at this time.
You folks are making me proud.
May many come and learn from the assembled wisdom here today.
notice there has been no established timeline or step-by-step outline of what this restoration process entails. For being public and open, there ain’t no meat on them bones. It is my opinion that they’ve wet their fingers and are holding them up to test which way the wind is blowing and how hard.
I just watched the first part. I agree with Joyner that it would be a good idea for Jesus to deal with this issue His way. As I remember it, twice He went to the temple and drove out the money changers with a whip and overturned their tables. That’s exactly what these hypocrites who are making God’s house into a place of merchandise need. I would hope the camera man would keep the video running for that part too…
Now for part 2.
Michael,
my fear is we are like theater critics who are reviewing a bad drama which only ardent fans of the actors will view anyway, and our reviews are buried on the back page of the paper while the advertisements are prominently displayed.
‘gainstthecurrentfil
Rick Joyner can save a lot of time and energy just by using scripture properly. ” Rightly dividing the word.”
Scripture says to remain single if you get divorced or return to your former mate. Done, no more to talk about.
Now once that is done he can go back to spouting off using lies and tall tales.
His angels are waiting. Emma is lonely. Paul has a meal prepared in the ole log cabin. He has invited Abraham to join them.
fil,
There is some truth to what you say.
My hope is that of the many who read and don’t post that there will be a few, even one, who will be rescued from the snare of these fowlers by what they read.
I’m big on hope.
Its just really hard for me watching Todd’s light hearted attitude in part 2. If Shonna or Todd’s kids have watched this video, it must be so painful for them to see him being publicly coddled and ingratiated and have such a light-hearted attitude about all of this. Guessing from his attitude, I’ll bet Todd hasn’t shed one tear over what he has done to Shonna or the kids. He has no idea what difficulty and pain he has caused…
This reminds me of the documentary I watched yesterday about a man who over a period of 25 years who kidnapped seven different teenage girls and took them to a sex dungeon he had built under his house. He chained them naked to a wall and made them have sex with him every day. He was finally caught a couple of years ago.
What was just jaw dropping about it all was that when they interviewed the man, he still these years later didn’t really think that what he had done was really so bad. He thought the girls had liked the sex, and he said he never hurt them, and, after all other people have to wear ankle irons all the time. This man said that after being arrested that it took his lawyer a couple of months to convince him that he wouldn’t get more than just community service for what he had done.
Todd has no remorse, no empathy, and no idea what pain and difficulty he has caused his own family. There is no way this man should be being publicly restored to ministry or relationship with God. He needs to go away for years first. Neither Joyner nor Johnson seem to get it either. God help us! How can the church be so blind, cruel, and heartless as to support such apostles, leaders and ministries?
Apenemo Time,”At the end of the day, the only person you can control is yourself. Yes, people in your life, especially your spouse, can make it easier or harder for you - but what they do or don’t do does NOT change what your position in Christ is, nor how you should act” WISE WORDS
this is what separates the men from the boys
(I might substitute mental attitude for the word “act” - but it takes the right attitude to produce the right action, I guess)
filbertz,”It is my opinion that they’ve wet their fingers and are holding them up to test which way the wind is blowing and how hard.” yep, but it’s for the purpose of setting their sails - they still want to steer the boat their way, eh?
Good comments, Jim. Appreciate especially your comments about the merchandise in God’s House.
TheTen also made many good points about “church” and “ministry” in general over the past week or two, about money in the church. People use one another people to produce… income. If a person does not draw the crowds they would not spend time on him/her.
You look at this particular group (or any group) doing these things and have to wonder… which is worse? The one doing the abusing or the ones trying to cover it up. It would be interesting to find scripture… to find the answers.
Maybe the word “cover up” isn’t the best word. How about, gloss over it to make it appear less sinful - a quick fix so you can get on with business as usual and sweep a few of the messes (people, wives, children, victims) under the rug. Or rushing a restoration for personal benefit (money, fame, glory, etc.)
After seeing so many terrible things in the church, God urges me to stay completely focused on His Word and His means of grace. When man focuses on worldly things, money, fame, celebrity, numbers and stuff… bad things happen.
Hello everyone.
Hello BrianD,
How are you today?
I’m doing alright…hanging in there.
And you?
BrianD.,
Everyone is healthy. I’m busy with my work and my flowers are blooming!
God is good!!
What’s wrong, Big Guy?
If anyone is interested in studying God’s Word tonight… I would really enjoy it.
Any topic is fine.
I am disgusted. The two older men talked so carefully about “things” you could tell they were unwilling to make TB upset. Three buds just hanging out, chit chatting. Empty words. Just disgusting.
Solus, I’m working on Linkathon right now, work later on.
Good for you, BrianD.
Lately, I’ve been into the Old Testament. I may revisit Leviticus. It’s difficult to get excited about Leviticus…
Solus…I did a 15 minute overview of Leviticus in an adult class I taught. The next week they all came back and said they were stunned at the realization that God is still Holy and still has requirements for how we are to come before him. We cannot simply come any way we want…we can only come through the Cross.
They all started reading Leviticus again and we spent much time talking about the Holiness of God, of what it means to approach Him rightly. There is a whole discussion as well about the amazing details of God and care of His people in the laws.
Some pretty cool stuff there.
I watched it……I upped my Tums order……gave me serious indigestion. Who buys into such garbage?
There is plenty within what Bill Johnson said that does not deserve the scorn…
1. Calling people out of hiding to find grace
2. Getting the grace of transformation to change their lives
3. Real restoration for masses of people without hope…
He also is the first person to call this thing SIN … Joyner has not done so with any clarity.
On the other hand…there is the HUGE error of thinking TB’s real problem is his divorce and remarriage. His eros life is overlooked.
Finally, so far this stuff is only image shaping and NOTHING else. There is no real information about either the sin or the issues of restoration.
It was strange to hear Todd say that Shonnah was handling this in a way that show how ‘mature’ she is…
Anyway… ya’ll will have to do this pretty much without me.
I’d like to hear what Alan Hawkins has to say about Bill Johnson’s words in this video. Not what Joyner or Bentley said, but Johnson.
Alan considers Bill Johnson a “Spiritual Father”, I believe, and is very closely tied (relationally and doctrinally) to Johnson’s church and ministry school in Redding CA. Comparing Johnson to a snake must hurt Alan(?).
As I was listening to Johnson’s perspective on the restoration principles he is employing on Bentley’s behalf, I was reminded how Alan is reaching out to Ted Haggard. Bill Johnson believes he is doing the same thing that Alan is doing with Haggard. The stage of restoration with Bentley is different than Haggard obviously, nonetheless it’s the same thing, right?
Darn it, Alan already responded before I even had a chance to finish
MaTDoS,
kind of like the old Wendy’s commercial with the grandma demanding “Where’s the beef?” These videos seriously lack content and substance. Sadly, TB isn’t even pretending to be repentent, broken, or remorseful. He’s cheerful, energetic, even playful. Truly strange, bordering bizzare.
knowwackywellfil
Solus, Sarah, my church is going through the Old Testament this year. We just got through Leviticus and are in Numbers right now. A few of our members did an experiment where they tried to live the Levitical laws to the tee. They failed
but the point was we can never fulfill the law, but we’re not to…we’re to follow Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law.
“Anyway… ya’ll will have to do this pretty much without me.”
That’s too bad, Alan. I was looking forward to reading your response to Bill Johnson’s mini-teaching as a whole. Not just the areas you consider unworthy of scorn, but the totality of what he said and what you believe might be at the root of what he is teaching.
BD,
You speak rightly that those parts of Johnsons speech were correct.
Unfortunately, they were wrapped in pure bs and served up as rationalizations for the debacle, not (in my opinion) genuine concern for what he was speaking about.
You can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps.
Johnson is keeping company with wicked men…in my opinion.
Dread -
I disagree. Much of what you term unworthy of scorn was manipulative on the face in that Johnson used it as redirection. Using TB’s restoration to so-called ‘ministry’ is not a teachable moment for people to learn how to operate in grace; it’s a cover-up to get him back in the pulpit.
Dread,
You know Bill so you look beyond these circumstances, TB’s current situation, and Joyner’s strong-arming, and see the good in what Bill is saying. But, it is hard for the rest of us to appreciate what Bill Johnson says when it is said in the midst of so much that offends our godly sensibilities. Sorry, but because of association Bill looks just as much the snake as any. I will try to take your advisement though and give him the benefit of the doubt. I just wish Bill had more discernment then about who he is hanging out with…
Sarah, Sorry I missed your post… I’m working too.
Your short study sounds interesting. “We cannot simply come any way we want…we can only come through the Cross.
They all started reading Leviticus again and we spent much time talking about the Holiness of God, of what it means to approach Him rightly.”
I welcome any comments you would like to share about Leviticus. The Old Testament does show us the holiness of God.
Do you teach often?
Brian D. wrote, “They failed but the point was we can never fulfill the law, but we’re not to…we’re to follow Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law.”
Amen. Brian. We always fail.
We succeed in-Christ.
Solus…I might be able to give you some comments…next week
I have to finish up laundry, tidy the house and make some meals to keep my boys and hubby happy while I’m out of town for a few days! I love the OT.
I used to teach weekly an adult class where we were just walking our way through Scripture. Historical overview and looking at big themes. I loved it…but when we had to leave that church that ended. I had been teaching there about 2 1/2 years.
This thread isn’t my cup of tea… I don’t know these gentlemen, nor do I care to be involved with such things or such “ministries”. But if anyone would like to discuss God’s Word… I am game.
Sarah,
Okay… that would be great! I have work also. Evenings are best for me regarding Bible Study (mornings, sometimes).
Regarding your teaching abilities… you go, Girl!
Maybe Brian D. and others will chime in too. Have a nice day (or see you on another thread). I don’t feel comfortable on this thread.
What would be good would be to hear some concrete stuff on how people in this thread have treated those who have fallen in their own circles.
What have you done to restore adulterers and to what?
What would you do with TB? We have heard all your scorn don’t need that…need to hear you say what YOU WOULD DO…?
The same with TH…again…not what has been done, but what you think should be done.
And better yet, what kind of restorations have you participated in and what have you done?
I know there has been stuff on here before about it and I do not want to hijack your ’snake handling’ session. But before someone gets bit maybe a word or two from the gallery.
Here is what I know about Bill Johnson and Todd Bentley. It is the same as what some of you are saying here in other ways. Bill has a relationship with Todd that goes back a few years. He loves the man in spite of all his flaws.
When Bill J. makes a covenant of friendship it is unconditional. He will not publicly speak against someone like that. He will deal in private in ways strong and clear but he WILL NOT give the public a piece of someone. It is just a matter of principle to him and a matter of friendship.
For instance, if someone makes a mess teaching at Bethel. They may not get a second invitation but they will NOT get denounced. Bethel continues to teach and allows the contrast to other teachers to stand with hearers making the distinctions for themselves.
Bill would not speak negatively about ANYONE by name. I believe I have that completely correct. But I know he will never throw a friend to those who want to smite him/her. He simply will not do it. So in public he will put forward the best possible face and he will try to work with people privately.
Obviously he feels no one else should do it either because he puts his focus on the negative consequences and results of speaking out. Now that is not particularly my way but it is his.
BD,
It’s not that complicated.
Repentant sinners are restored to fellowship where they receive the counseling, love, and restoration they need.
It’s done quietly, privately without glorifying the sin or sparing grace to the sinner.
When the community recognizes that they once again meet biblical standards for leadership then that could be considered.
That would take time…depending on the situation.
They would have to once again become people of a good reputation, worthy of respect for their godly lives.
Neither TB or TH are there yet in my opinion.
To be even more blunt…I doubt that Bentley is even regenerate.
That is a whole nother can of worms…
“For an overseer,as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.”
(Titus 1:7-9 ESV)
“The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.”
(1Timothy 3:1-7 ESV)
Do those passages describe the current state of either Bentley or Haggard?
For me, it comes down to this: The restoration of TB has become a circus type atmosphere. Joyner seems to be going to great lengths justifying what is being done. If Joyner believes what he is doing is the correct thing to do (IMO, it is not) then shut up and do it! We don’t need a blow by blow description, justifying every move.
I could not finish watching the second part. This whole thing goes against everything I believe, and I’m not talking about the sin, I’m referring to the manner in which this mess has been handle with a man who had the same issue years before. TB is young. He needs to come back 10 of more years later after doing something else to put food on the table. Show me a broken man who is not broken over being caught, but broken over what he did.
Amen, Bob.
BD,”a word or two from the gallery.” I guess that’s where I would be sitting…I won’t say anything about Bentley directly. My impressions of him have been gleaned right here…and they are not good at all - even from good men who are his friends.
Aaand, where Haggard is concerned … same thing.
I do apologize for the perfunctory prayer, tho. Many good men of God here are befuddled by one loose canon (that’s the best I can say about TB or TH).
IMO - neither one should ever presume to return to leadership of a church or a move-so-called…they have as much right as any Christian to write and sell their thots - but hopefully: go in peace and make your peace with God.
I guess I’m a little slow, but I don’t understand why the restoration process for Todd Bentley didn’t include him repenting and returning to his marriage. Did I miss something?
Some of this is difficult because these men are on the move.
In Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology, he talks about 1 Tim 5, and how public disclosure of the sin “should be adequate enough that the congregation can (1) understand how serious the offense was, (2) underatand and support the discipline process, and (3) they will not subsequently feel the sin was minimized or covered up if more details leak out later.
Grudem goes on to say that “such public disclosure of the sin of s leader will signal to the congregation that the leaders of the church will not hide such matters in the future”.
“This will increase the confidence of the church in the integrity of the leadership board. ***It will also allow the sinning leader the gradual process of rebuilding relationships and trust with the congregation, because he will not have to deal with people who have a hundred different speculations about what his sin was, but with people who know his specific sin, and can see the genuine repentence and change regarding that area of sin in his life.” (asterisks mine for emphasis)
The point I’m trying to make is, with these guys on the move, the people who might see the warning signs again aren’t around, nor do the offenders have to see the pain they cause.
If Ted H or TB did these things to people they loved, are they more likely or less likely to do it again to folks they barely know?
It seems 1 Tim 5 is about restoring fellowship ‘where you fell’, not where it is more comfortable for you to recover.
Thus, is Scriptural restoration being followed when restoration is to a fellowship other than the one where the offense occurred?
I have been involved in a lot of church discipline processes, and some attempts at restoration. I have found that the closer you are to the offending person, the less effective you are in dealing with the problem in an objective way. At first you tend to be harder on your friend than you would with someone else, but over time you are much softer on your friend than you would with someone else because you miss your friend. It seems to me that in the case of TB and TH, those who are “restoring” them are way too close to the situation to have any objectivity. We can criticize Dread on Haggard, or Joyner and Johnson on Bentley, but if we were dealing with our friends we’d probably do the same, which is all the more reason why these things should be handled by an independent group of pastors who aren’t close to the perpetrator.
BD you said this about Bill Johnson and the stance taken by Bethel in Redding, CA.
“for instance, if someone makes a mess teaching at Bethel. They may not get a second invitation but they will NOT get denounced. Bethel continues to teach and allows the contrast to other teachers to stand with hearers making the distinctions for themselves.”
What I have thought all along. The noted “teachers” are cared for and the people of God are left to defend for themselves.
That is shoddy and a shame and basically confirms that these so called leaders do not seek a renewal of caring for the people of God the way He intended.
That stance flies in the face of everything Paul enjoined and charged Timothy to uphold in the fear of God without showing partiality.
What a high regard for these teachers and such a looooow regard for Christ and His work amongst His people.
Dave, I was going to post something along those same lines. Specifically as it relates to the principles behind our own jurisprudence. You know, the whole “Lady Justice” analogy with her being displayed with a blindfold and all.
That’s why I have pressed Alan about Tommy Barnett and the “Independent” accountability group that was so widely publicized early on in Haggard’s restoration process. I have been asking what is their take on Haggard traveling, speaking and even now teaching in churches? I still don’t know what their perspective is.
I think in Alan’s case with Haggard, his conviction is that Haggard is well on his way in the restoration process now and should NOT be denied the opportunity to speak and teach “Transgressors” in the way”, as he quoted from Psalm 51.
However, as I indicated last night, it’s none of my business anyways
I am saddened as well by Bill Johnson’s comments….and BD’s comments that Bill doesn’t’ even call out publicly the teachers at his church…it breaks my heart! Who is the Shepherd at Bethel then? I am very familiar with the church and its teachings because I lived in Redding for a long time. I have prayed that the pulpit there would be replaced with a man that teaches God’s word.
I want to say to TB the same thing I say to some of the boys in my class: “Sit up in that chair! What do you think this is, the Lazy Boy Showcase?!”
Good points, Dave & Scott.
I’m drawn to Grudem’s point, though, about being “with people who know his specific sin, and can see the genuine repentence and change regarding that area of sin in his life.”
If the offender is not around anyone who saw their slow downfall, who’s going to confront them in love when he or she gets close to the edge again?
I understand Dave’s valid point of being too close; I’m just thinking our loud here…
I’d like to say a few other things too, but I can’t afford a lawyer right now.
PN, I understand what you’re saying. In Haggards case, there is NO way he could have remained in Colorado Springs after everything came out. Most Pastors cannot remain in their own churches, obviously. That’s why Haggard moved to Phoenix, AZ.
If the people around Haggard and Bentley weren’t discerning enough to see what was happening while it was going on, or were unwilling to confront them (for whatever reason) while it was happening, I’m not sure how those closest to them are the ones to handle the process. So, on that end, I agree with Dave, especially with high profile Guys.
It is more than sad that none of these apostles has a problem with the preaching and ministry of Todd. They want Todd to be restored as soon as possible so that he can continue what he was doing before. None of them have decried the fact that Todd’s ministry was not Christ-centric, nor the fact that he did not preach the gospel nor even quote or teach from the Bible, except perhaps in a very rare situation.
Oh My Dear Dear Father in Heaven, please forgive these men for leading your childern astray ,,my heart longs for the day that we will meet face to face.glory to you in the hightest forever and ever .
JimB, why would they challenge Todd on his message? It’s their message. Bill Johnson embraces what Todd teaches. He’s had him preach at Bethel on more than one occasion.
thank you jim ,we need to understand that the lord is always in his teachings and with out him, there is deceite. and he tells his people to stand gard .
Rigt out of the gate, why are these guys putting out a “weekly report” on TB? Are TB’s followers so idolatrous that they hang on each word about him like people addicted to the gossip rags in the grocery store?
Also it shows that Joyner and his crowd have packaged Bentley like a commodity, and have regular press releases to keep their product in the forefront of people’s minds. This “weekly report” thing is deeply disturbing.
If it is any consolation, most Christians outside the ‘Renewal Movement’ have never heard of Bentley and Joyner, and those few who have pretty much have them pegged as false prophets and shysters. They clearly are con men and are preaching a different Gospel.
Patrick.
You are 100% correct. That whole movement is about the men - not about Christ.
I said last week, these people have no Christology and have a holy spirit run amuck.
Scott is right. When I first did my research on Todd years ago I went to his website and saw the same gibberish he is trying to sell today. There are hundreds of people who do the same. It is still despicable, but not notable.
But I did further research and found a transcription from Bethel’s website of a message that Todd gave at Bethel.
It was a prophecy about various harvests supposedly based upon a vision that Todd had of looking “down” upon the throne of God described in Rev. 4
I only know of one who would want to look “down” upon the throne of God.
These ministers exalt themselves and get away with by enticing beliver’s that they can be somebody “more” than who they really are in Christ by His grace.
The movement needs their five fold leaders to bring about this restoration. I am not saying that individual men do not inject elements of teaching tied to basic relationships that contain truth born out of love and the Scriptures. But even these truths are often super charged with this same sort of restoration emphasis.
I am sure Alan Hawkins is one who supplies and gives great pastoral emphasis and practice in his teaching and counseling ministry but he is influenced greatly by this need for these restoration teachers.
This philosophy and distortion of Scripture is a very prominent element and under girding of their renewal and restoration activities.
We can rightly and accurately be taught by God on one hand just like Peter, but when mindful of the things of men and neglectful of what Scripture teaches as to the limits of our participation in the victory of Christ and the accompanying emphasis on sharing in His sufferings in this phase or stage of His Kingdom, then we can open ourselves to a deluding and opposing influence even as Peter did in Matt. 16.
Vic (5:56) -
I agree completely.
vic
“but he is influenced greatly by this need for these restoration teachers.”
LOL… you have access to many things..one of them is not my motives or needs.
Scott,
“That’s why Haggard moved to Phoenix, AZ.”
You do not know what you are talking about on this one. The facts are otherwise. Ted left CS because he signed a contract to do so.
Finally,
All the criticism of the videos …I myself think that so far they are tripe and useless as information but we cannot criticize the endless secrecy and then criticize the openness. Call it obscene, pathetic and empty but at least it is hanging out their for our voyeurism appetite.
Getting a little pissed here…should probably bale out.
BD: Sorry, not wanting to ascribe motive but yet I see my words do state that especially in light of your response. Therefore I ask for your forgiveness.
Let me rephrase and then follow with a question(s) for clarification if you wish to answer.
Rephrase:
It seems to me that the philosophy of ministry that is connected to restoration or renewal ministry involves the active and frequent participation of these teachers. I am sure that each pastorate or leadership team on the local church level may not feel, think or act that way.
Questions: What is the role of these five fold ministry leaders in the renewal movement as you see it in general?
How do you see it on the local level as a shepherd of your flock?
dread,
those videos aren’t there for our voyeurism; they’re out there to gain our support or our silence. Either one accomplishes the same thing…Bentleg returns, ready or not.
oncewasenoughfil
BD, oh c’mon, you got thick skin and you were a brawler many moons ago
I don’t know what I’m talking about? Of course I knew that Haggard signed a contract with New Life, it was part of the multi-thousand dollar severance & contract settlement he received from them. That information was widely publicized in the media.
What I was talking about was the original purpose for him going to Phoenix, AZ. That was all part of the “Restoration” process he agreed to, isn’t it? Did he finish the restoration?
He went to Phoenix to submit himself to Tommy Barnett, Pastor of the mega Assembly of God church there. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize. At least that’s what I read here way back when
http://www.christianpost.com/church/General/2007/04/ted-haggard-leaves-colorado-for-arizona-19/index.html
It was also reported last year that Haggard had essentially broken his contractural agreement with New Life as well. Remember the whole episode where he solicited people on his email list for money and got called out for it by Tommy Barnett? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329187,00.html
Alan, Haggard is NOT ready to return to the pulpit, or to ANY appearance of public vocational ministry. You are doing him a disservice and the body of Christ a disservice by doing this. I consider you my friend, however, I just have to say it.
Do you believe some of us here are the only one’s saying this? H.B. London who was part of the restoration team he left said back in November of 2008, “Based on my experience working with recovering pastors, it would seem to be premature.”
Even Peter Wagner, whom you have noted on several occasions that you respect and honor in the highest regard, recently said he “thinks Haggard’s spiritual restoration is incomplete.” In addition, Wagner made the following statement:
“He said (Haggard)in his letter to his congregation after he was fired that he is a liar and deceiver,” Wagner said, adding that because Haggard didn’t finish the restoration program, he’s not fit to preach. “He must have someone confirm him in the body of Christ” before he can preach again.”
Wagner and H.B. London made these comments back in November 2008 shortly after Haggard “preached two sermons Nov. 2 at Open Bible Fellowship Church in Morrison, Ill., at the invitation of the senior pastor, a longtime friend.”
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/22934/ted-haggard-6
There’s the beef.
Not as though everyone has lots of time to wade through more “stuff”, however, here’s a link to to Ted’s website. Very well done by the way. http://tedhaggard.com/index.htm
The two sermons he preached at Open Bible Fellowship in November of ‘08 are linked right on the front page.
Scott, I’m glad you posted that cause it made it alot easier to see the very differences between how Bentely and Haggard are being dealt with.
1) Haggard gave his own accounting of what has been going on in his life, he’s not having “handlers” speak for him.
2) He said that he received 88% (I think) favorable emails after the Oprah appearance. Most importantly he said that 4% were critical. He at least admitted that there were those that complained. Joyner said 99% of the emails they reveived were in support of what they were doing.
3) He admits that there have been relationships within his overseaers group, the old church etc that have been damaged.
4) He explains why they had to move out of state, then moved back again.
5) He provides names of people that are willing to provide more information to back up his story.
6) He admits that he was at fault.
7) His writing appears to be factual, and even if I’m not a fan, which I most assuredly am not, I feel that there’s at least some attempt to be straight forward. I’ve never felt that with Bentley.
That’s just with a quick reading. It seems pretty obvious to me that there’s plenty of difference between these 2 examples.
Thanks London… well said.
NP Scott… my skin is holding up just fine.
True Colors
In a day when expediency not principle rules the church, in a day when principles are for sale if success is to be gained, in a day when men sign a creed they don’t agree with or intend to implement to gain a position and are viewed as courageous, in a day when men keep many different flags on their ship and fly the colors that serve their immediate needs. in a day when large numbers in attendance is equated to God’s approval, in such a time as this when one will fly his true colors, knowing full well that few will salute, and most will shoot. I choose to salute, and tell Alan to hold a steady course. Alan has always been consistent, always sailed under his true colors.
2Co 5:18* And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
I would that more would sail under true colors. Perhaps Spurgeon said it better than I.
“It is frequently bewailed as a mournful circumstance that creeds were ever written; it is said, “Let the Bible alone be the creed of every church, and let preachers explain the Scriptures as they conscientiously think best.” Here again we enter into no debate, but simply beg the objector to remember that there are creeds, that the churches have not given them up, that persons are not forced to be ministers of these churches, and therefore if they object to creeds they should not offer to become teachers of them; above all, they should not agree to teach what they do not believe. If a man thinks the banner of a political party to be a wrong one, he should not enlist under it, and if he does so, with his heart in another camp, he may expect ejectment with remarks unflattering. Protest by all means against creeds and catechisms, but if you sign them, or gain or preserve a position by appearing to uphold them, wonder not if your morality be regarded as questionable”.
CH Spurgeon
Dread - earlier in the thread you asked for comments on what we could suggest one do, instead of commenting on what others chose to do, with TB and TH. I have thought a lot about what I, personally, would do.
In regards to TB -gosh, I honestly feel he is reprobate and I cant understand why anyone thinks his ministry, or the furtherance of his ministry would be of value. I showed one of my teens clips we found of his interactions with attendees and I could not watch it anymore, my daughter was appalled that anyone would actually listen to TB say God told him to kick a lady in the face, or God told him to punch a guy in the stomach. He needs to never return to any pulpit. Honestly, I think people do get mixed up when they witness, what looks like actual miracles. We have a neighbor who went to Florida to see TB and our neighbor says his wife was healed of an ailment. This is where people get confused…is it real or not? How can someone get healed on the one hand, and on the other, we have a lunatic saying God is telling him to hurt vulnerable and needy people, not to mention how he treated the sanctity of marriage and how love means nada to him (his children, his wife, his God - not sure if I should even capitalize God - do we worship the same one??) - thought God IS love…..
In regards to TH. Well, I might do what you are doing, in terms of reaching out to a fellow sinner. If he is truly repentant. Maybe he cant see that its not such a good idea to go on Oprah, or send letters to people asking for money or make the rounds on the radio or whatever - he has issues he needs to work through. I dont think he should be in a teaching position in any way, shape or form. I think it should be a long, long time before, if ever, he is allowed that privilege again. But would I walk away from him? No, I guess I wouldn’t (again, IF he is truly repentant and SEES what the scope of his sin is). We need to be there for each other, but he does need lots of boundaries that he will not enforce upon himself, so someone else should.
I am not as eloquent as many here, especially when my head hurts (like now!), but you get the gist. I respect you, Dread, you are a man of passion and boldness. You are a man of God. God bless you in whatever you choose to do.
Just as a brief rejoinder, I don’t believe anyone has suggested that it is even remotely improper for Alan to reach out to & stand by a friend. God bless him for doing so. What’s debatable is whether or not Haggard should have access to a teaching pulpit. I’m not sure what that seems so controversial to some.
Just what defines a teaching pulpit.. can he speak in a classroom or stand at the back of the church and have everyone turn around in their seats and speak. Is there some special spot that was designated in the early church as the “pulpit” that was a spot with a place to put a Bible and preach from that was reserved for only the disserving and worthy?
Can someone like Ted speak any where at any time ever that you would approve of?
Making issue as to the church paying some of Ted’s travel expense, or speaking from a “Pulpit” are side issues, the real issue here, is that people don’t want him to speak at all any where any time.
When Alan gives a fallen man a chance to speak when everyone in the room knows exactly what he has done wrong, and then allows questions I can find no fault in it,
it is way better than the CC method of letting a fallen man go about teaching in ministry when when his past sin has been covered up, and by the way no questions allowed.
“Teaching pulpit” = teaching the Scripture to the church.
Is there anywhere Ted could speak? Sure. Personally, I have no problem with the Q&A that was suggested.
But that’s the difference, and it’s a big one in my eyes. But obviously, we’re not talking about my church, so my opinion is worth about as much as the kleenex I’m blowing my nose into.
So Again if Ted didn’t open a Bible would it be better?
I’m not trying to be hard, but is a man who fell forbidden from sharing from the Bible. If everyone who ever fell, was not allowed to share from the Bible in a Church, it would be pretty quiet is most churches this Sunday.
Let’s be honest, it was a combination of the nature of his sin combined with his celebrity status that make this unpalatable for many. People want their pound of flesh, but Ted will never be able to give enough to satisfy everyone. I am not a fan of Ted, but then again I am not a big fan of most preachers. Alan is acting in accord with his movements creed. Agree or disagree with how their camp deals with fallen pastors if you will, but if you are a CC remember our movement thinks keeping a fall secret is a good thing.
There is that saying about living in a glass house that applies here. I respect what Michael has to say, but to be honest all the CC guys should bow out. we have not earned the right to stand aloof and act as judges in this issue when our own house is not in order, we have platform from which we can say we know better.
I don’t know what I would do if I was in Alan’s shoes, and I am glad I will not have to ever deal with such a weighty issue.
Earlier someone said that Ted was no David, and that’s true, I don’t believe Ted ever killed anyone to cover his tracks like David did.
If David had not been allowed to speak in the congregation we would have never have had Psalm 51 –
What ever standard you use on Ted, be sure to use it on everyone who has ever fallen into gross sin.
Pr 11:1 ¶ A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
DMW -
“There is that saying about living in a glass house that applies here. I respect what Michael has to say, but to be honest all the CC guys should bow out.”
You make an excellent point as I think through past history. I’m so new to the movement & so removed from SoCal that I rarely think of that stuff. Consider me bowed out.
Tim. I am old to the movement and can’t forget the stuff I have seen.
I am hopeful that you guys who are new will create a different legacy for those who come after you. We, the old crew left you with mess. It’s not your to clean up, but hopefully you will make your own and different mistakes and not repeat the past.
when sinners first get saved one of the reasons there is so much joy is as a new believer one is constantly reassured that ALL ones sins are washed away, God remembers them no more, they are as far away as the east is from the west.
Seems when sinners sin after receiving the faith, it is a much different standard.
Lots more pressure to prove oneself forgiven or worthy to be accepted within the assembly, seemingly forever looked at by other is the church with a sidelong glance. It becomes easy to doubt one’s sins can truly be washed away and we can be made as white as snow as in the beginning.
I always consider another’s sin grosser than mine when I consider it something worse than whatever I have or would ever do. Wretched hypocrite that I am.
Bentley and Ted H’s are miles apart IMO, for the reasons others have already shared better than I could.
Whether to actually pastor a church may certainly require a longer season of healing/restoration. But to require/expect silence if invited by another pastor is another issue, I think. It may be a much needed word that keeps someone from slipping down a very slippery slope they are struggling with.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.
The guys from CC can say don’t let Ted teach, becsue learning from someone who did it wrong is wrong, we know becasue we did it wrong and have the expierience from doing it wrong which qualifies us to tell you not to let Ted tell people how he did things wrong… or something like that
is there a smily face for irony.
Here’s the second video installment between Joyner, Johnson & Bentley. Bentley starts talking at 3:24 on the clip. Count how many times he says “I”, “Me” and “My” and “Mine” in one minute. It’s truly amazing. Keep in mind, this all being presented so that we can “learn” and be “taught” by this restoration process.
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Groups/1000040651/MorningStar_Ministries/Media/VIDEO_Todd_Bentleys/VIDEO_Todd_Bentleys.aspx
‘Seems when sinners sin after receiving the faith, it is a much different standard.’
Anne –
Is this an observation you’re making, or do you think this is the way it should be in the church?
Psalms 51:13 is often quoted as a beneficial component for fallen Ministers who are “restored” back into public ministry.
“[Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.”
What exactly is incorporated in the “thy ways” part of that verse? Because what I am witnessing is that an example is being set for many Ministers that if you fall, don’t worry about it too much. After a couple of years, you can go right back into public ministry, no problem!
David’s life was marked by HORRIBLE consequences because of his sin, long after he did the things which have been recorded for our posterity. Thousands were affected in extremely harsh ways, some of his sons died by the sword, thousands upon thousands lost their lives as a result of his actions. I wonder if David had that in mind when he said “[Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways”?
What about the PEOPLE??? So much of these Minister restorations are all about THEM!!! Their ministry, their calling, their value and what “they” can ultimately bring to the table for everybody else out there. It makes me sick to my stomach, it really does.
“What about the PEOPLE???”
Scott, that has always been and will be God’s word to all of us and extends across all denominations/movements/tribes. But the word carries greater weight and emphasis to those who have been charged with caring for His People.
It is the word of the Spirit when there is a crisis that captures public attention and when simple perspective and perseverance is needed on a daily basis for those out of the limelight but clearly living in His light.
It is not the value that ministers bring to the table, it is the value of His people that ministers are to attend to.
Yes, restoration and even appropriate recognition can take place but in the appropriate context of ascribing value to His people.
I for one know that there is no pastor or ministry out there that we can’t do without - honest or dishonest; moral or immoral. So, since we can do without them, we just need to tell the bad ones, the fallen ones and the snakes just to go take a hike and not let the pulpit door hit them in the backside as they leave. Give them a warm handshake and tell them to go join a church.
Hello, everyone!
I agree with MLD. He might state things very direct but let me add something here. He said they are to exit the public pulpit or platform.
He said they are to be given a warm handshake (affirmative) and told to join a church. I would be the first person to welcome them at that church with a listening ear, a full body hug embrace and a welcome to coffee, my home, some meals, etc. I would be available to help welcome and assist their spouse and kids and be an affirmative person as the process how they are handling the crisis themselves.
In addition I would always keep a listening ear to the Spirit to help that person slowly move towards using their gifting in the new context of their testimony and at the right time would be willing to go out on a limb to assist when that time came and serve as an advocate for them within the body.
Is that unloving or judgmental?
vic, no, it’s not unloving or judgmental.
For Lutheran @3:27
Just an observation. Don’t think it should be that way. Having been on both sides of the fence. the judged and the judger.
I agree with Brian D, vic. that is not an unloving or judgmental attitude.
Thanks Anne and BrianD. I was being facetious.
So, vic, that big-falutin’ word mean you didn’t mean what you said?
Hello, BrianD! Are you nervous about the Wildcats yet?
Vic, I agree. That’s why the standard for Ministers is SO much higher. To him who is given much, much is required. Once again, this discussion is not about being restored to the Lord and into the company of believers. Of course we should receive a fallen repentant brother or sister in Christ, that’s our duty and privilege as Christians.
And even at that, sometimes it takes people time to adjust and to bring themselves to a place where they can genuinely do that.
I was taken back while listening to Ted Haggard in the interview he gave to ABC back in January of this year. He said that one of things that he was really “surprised” by was how people in the “Church” that he thought were family, “abandoned” him.
What were people suppose to do? They were in absolute shock and probably still trying to figure out whether or not the man in the pulpit of their church all those years was just a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I know that’s how I would have reacted.
Joking…
My question would be, why do pastors jump so readily to restore people guilty of sexual sin?
Is it because many of them struggle with the same things, and if they held the Haggards of the world to a high standard, and held themselves to that same high standard, they would lose their own jobs?
Wildcats? Scott, who are these Wildcats you speak of?
http://villanovansports.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/twill3.jpg
I still laugh when I remember the time Daniel Fusco misspelled the word.
He said he was being “fecesious”.
…kind of like saying you’re full of _______. (think feces)
BrianD, your 4:30, I’ve often wondered the same thing. The other thing I wonder about is why is always other Pastors and Church Leaders that are appointed as the supreme “Restorers.” Who then make the determination of when that individual can be released back into public ministry. And by public ministry I mean in a Pastoral sense in the local church.
Why can’t faithful and recognized men in the church that are accountants, mortgage brokers or garbage truck drivers be part of that process?
Scott, because they’re too busy emptying trash cans or figuring tax forms to “discern” the deep things of God like the professionals
BrianD, I guess. MLD at least as a warm handshake though
Scott “I was taken back while listening to Ted Haggard in the interview he gave to ABC back in January of this year. He said that one of things that he was really “surprised” by was how people in the “Church” that he thought were family, “abandoned” him.”
I sense this indicates he, at best has his penitance twisted, and he does not have a pastor’s heart. Isn’t he self justifying in a public venue? Isn’t he airing ‘family business’ in public? That is not the heart of a shepherd of God’s people. Would any of the pastor’s here look for a public place to declare against the behavior of your flock?
Scott, it’s a great question.
Why DO pastors outside of a church get to “restore” the pastor of that church to ministry.
You would think the people in a church, who have seen the fallen pastor closely for years, would be the most fit amongst any human being to determine if and when the leader is restored and ready to reenter ministry.
When you have outsiders oversee the process, it’s almost like you tell the people they have no authority in their own church and are unable to discipline and restore their own leaders.
I disagree that a pastor/leader should necessarily be restored by people in his own church. There’s way too many raw emotions and swirling thoughts at that time. Getting distance helps speed up the healing for everyone.
‘Why can’t faithful and recognized men in the church that are accountants, mortgage brokers or garbage truck drivers be part of that process?’
Scott,
They certainly can.
But if they’re called to their vocations, along with their other vocations (family, community, etc.), do they have the time? I hate to see regular folks sacrifice their lives for church stuff…I’ve seen the sad results…just my take.
Another installment of Bentley….
The truths that are being shared are useful … the context is … well it is what it is.
Basically, we have a man who has gotten his way, now getting a royal re-entry. Will they deal with the stubbornness that led to this moment? Why is the support, guidance and wisdom of these men so humbly embraced now while it was ignored after the coronation in June?
I have to stop watching this stuff. There is no information in it. It is the spirit of Cain… resist grace until you get the deal you want.
A couple of sections of scripture came to my mind tonight at Bible study as I was thinking about this restoration process for TB. The first has to do with Malachi 2:13-17 where the Lord tells the Judeans that He bears withness between them and the wife of their youth, and then goes on to say that He hates divorce. Then, the Lord goes on and tells them that they have wearied Him with their words because everyone who is doing evil they are calling good. My thoughts are that these videos are wearing the Lord just as they are wearying us on pp.
The second passage is in 1 Peter 3:7 where Peter writes that if we do not deal with our wives in an understanding way that the Lord will not even hear our prayers. Scott mentioned that TB speaks over and over again using the words “my, myself, and I” and my thought was that this is all he can speak of if God isn’t hearing his prayers right now because he is committing adultery.
The passages are below…
Malachi 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 And this is the second thing you do: You cover the altar of the Lord with tears, With weeping and crying; So He does not regard the offering anymore, Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands. 14 Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant. 15 But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. 16 “For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence,” Says the Lord of hosts. Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.” 17 You have wearied the Lord with your words; “Yet you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil Is good in the sight of the Lord, And He delights in them,” Or, “Where is the God of justice?”
1 Peter 3:7 (NKJV)
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.
JimB -
1 Peter 3:7 has become my favorite verse regarding marriage.
There is (to me, at least) a distinct correlation between 1 Peter 3:7 and Malachi 2:13-15.
If a husband wants to know if God is answering - or even paying significant attention - to his prayers, he would do well to evaluate how he is treating his wife. After all, she is the Father’s daughter…
I watched this last video, I wept deeply, cowardly I know but I wept, inside that is, I dont wont ever weep outside, not even in private. But this “restoration” stuff is like a cheap infomercial with the carrot and the stick, nothing more. They will hold it out and when you need it you will be gutted. I have always been one to seek restoration usually at great personal loss. Another one of my failings. There is restoration with God, and maybe though extremely seldom with His Body. It does happen but it is the extreme exception not the rule. If the ODM want to know what is wrong with the Church, its not music, potty mouth preachers, it is the fact that this Gospel does not restore relationships with each other. Rather sad.
brian, I want to tell you something. You don’t need to feel bad or apologize for any supposed shortcomings. I read your posts and am always struck my your love, depth, wisdom and especially your concern for your fellow man. Crying or feeling sad or seeking reconciliation is not sinful nor a failing. You are beautiful just as you are. God created you to be sensitive to others, don’t apologize for it, its wonderful! God bless you today, brian -
Alan, don’t stop watching!
This live/interactive event hosted by Peter Wagner tonight should be an interesting one.
http://www.globalharvest.org/
Scott, looks like PW is going to everything except sing.
Vic, Wagner is a multi-talented man, I guess
Chuck Pierce is Wagner’s right hand man. He’s the fellow in the photo with Wagner and his wife. He’s the Guy that markets and makes HUGE money by selling “anointing” oils from different parts of the world. Oils that supposedly “release” certain divine attributes and characteristics when applied. It was his oil “Kingly oil” that was applied by the “apostles” to Bentley during his commissioning.
He is offering a Freedom Anointing Oil and Candle Set, which includes a 1 oz/ roll-on bottle for only $20.00. Better go get a set before they’re gone!
http://gloryofzion.org/webstore/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=528
We need to wait and see! I wish they extend the restoration process to eliminate “emma”, bam-bam, address Todd’s pathological lying issues and drinking problems.
I believe any wicked sinner can be restored like Manasseh, the king of Judah!.
Jesus hated hypocrisy and pride. Anyone who falls into pride and hypocrisy needs restoration.
> This live/interactive event hosted by Peter Wagner tonight should be an interesting one.
Yeah but he wants $9.95 to download it. :-/
Many are called ‘few chosen’. So Mr Joyner then is calling us all (video, video, video etc.,) but chooses few. Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley, Bob Jones etc.,
The use of the biblical in all of this is meant to confuse us to such a degree that we won’t know the wheat from the chaff anymore. Enemy strategy from the pulpit
The God Janus was two sided, and created hell in the process of being, any connection do you think.
Did Jesus gift slick marketing or does MAN in his greed for more of our money.
JESUS CAME TO TAKE THE BEAST
There have been words on this site, such as hirelings and heretics, and bastards, hard words to hear, but we are im my opinio to treat these people and refer to them a such. Never before have I seen such distortion of God’s holy Word, and the attempt, pathetic as it is to correct and reuke those that have merely watched and posted about the things that have been exposed about this man.
Conveneientl missing of course is any discussion about the man’s enumerated heresies, manifold lies, false ad demonic appiritions, conversations,and visions.
Quite honestly, what we are watching right in front of our eyes, are people who more than likely demon possessed, or at least profoundly harassed. These are not our brethren. They call themselves Apostles and Prophets, and yet they are transparently profoundly deluded, and sm to revel in it.
Watch Bentely’s mannerisms, arrogant, aloof….again, we see Todd’s daily parade of dysfucntionalism on full display…it’s allabout Todd. This whole charade has been about “one man”, instead of it being about the ONE man it is supposed to be about.
Tragically, this man will more than likely be back behind a lecturn or a pulpit. An unrepentant adulterer who to his won demise is follwoing reprobates who care more about saving face and the mney that this side show produces. There heresises, falsehoods ad lies will still be evident. And again, we will be “disciplined” fo daring to confront this satanic filth