Mark Dever, via Justin Taylor:
…for us to conclude that we must agree upon a certain view of alcohol, or a certain view of schooling, or a certain view of meat sacrificed to idols, or a certain view of the millennium in order to have fellowship together is, I think, not only unnecessary for the body of Christ, but it is therefore both unwarranted and therefore condemned by scripture. So if you’re a pastor and you’re listening to me, you understand me correctly if you think I’m saying you are in sin if you lead your congregation to have a statement of faith that requires a particular millennial view.
Ed Stetzer's notes from a message he gave at Thomas Road Baptist Church on secret sins. I appreciated his points.
Jared Wilson on Steve McNair, and that who you are is what you are when no one is looking.
A debate over church membership: Thabiti Anyabwile says yes, Eric Bryant says it's not enough.
Michael Spencer's assessment of blogosphere spirituality.
Carl Trueman asks if hurt mail is the new hate mail.
J.R. Briggs shares a portion of a letter from Eugene Peterson, regarding church planting. (HT: Todd Hiestand)
Part 2 of Donny Pauling's conversation with Ted Haggard.
The oldest known Bible is now online (it's amazing to see such an old manuscript, even through a web browser).
Daniel Fusco on when the body becomes a business.
Douglas Logan reviews Glory Road, a book about the "journeys" of ten African-American pastors into Reformed theology (HT: Justin Taylor).
David Nelson on bumper-sticker theology.
David Wayne's health update. He also challenges the popular saying "If God doesn't judge America, He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah".
Tim Challies reviews The Late Great Planet Church, a DVD from a Reformed perspective on how dispensationalism developed.
Shaun King's 10 thoughts on building online community.
Phil Ryken on the pastor scholar.
first
2nd
third.
Carl Trueman takes his sweet time saying “Get over it!”
There saved you a few minutes….
In my experience Church Membership was based totally on what function one serves and how efficient one serves that function, the nano second or faster one does not totally and even perfectly fulfill those expectations one is, or even never was a member of that Body. There is a great deal of flowery language about Church Membership and the Body etc, but basically it is measured in functionality. There is a great deal of totally useless rhetoric concerning we are brothers bla bla, but where the rubber meets the road, it is what you bring to the table that gets you in, and keeps you in, and grace has, nor can have anything to do with it. And it never will. I find that abit sad.
An addendum “When the body becomes a business” from day one until now, it always has been, always.
brian,
Your inspiration is unmistakable and your insight is often razor edged… but my friend, your cynical judgments are also relentless. The short phrase above is so cynical as to guarantee the failure of anyone who tried to rise above it. There is no absence of totally useless rhetoric in the words that diminish the human offerings of love to one another that bind us together.
my own addendum… my words are not intended to nullify but to qualify yours…
You know bri, I want to disagree with you, and in alot of ways i do, but part of me says yep, you are spot on.
Brian,
Sounds like you’ve been tainted by church-as-corporation/business. Keep seeking — there are better alternatives! Blessings to you –
Facebook goes public
http://www.nytimes.com/external/readwriteweb/2009/06/24/24readwriteweb-the-day-facebook-changed-messages-to-become-18772.html
Thank you Mark Dever!!
From Ryken’s article about Calvin as the pastor/scholar:
“Typically, he preached through whole books of the New Testament (or the Psalms) on Sundays and from the Old Testament the rest of the week. In both cases he preached directly from the Bible in its original languages.”
I believe I’d heard something along these lines before, but it was really refreshing to read it again in light of all the reports from Michael’s Geneva trip & him seeing Pastor Chuck as one of “Calvin’s Children.”
I would not presume to preach directly from the original languages (I’m only a mere student of them myself…spending much more time in Greek recently). But although I had heard Calvin taught expositionally through the Bible, I had no idea he did the NT on Sundays & the OT during the week. To a lesser extent, that’s exactly what we do with the NT on Sundays & OT on Wednesday nights.
For all the flak that verse-by-verse teaching sometimes gets, it’s good to get a prominent example of it from one of the giants of Christendom.
CK,
Did you read Dever’s statement? It seems a little…how do I say it…self serving?
He’s asking us not to divide over Millieum teaching after one of his buddies becomes a pre mil? I see a connection….
I meant to add at the end…(Insert wondering smiley here), but I used brackets …
To give a broader quote from Dever:
“Therefore, I conclude that it is sin to divide the body of Christ—to divide the body that he prayed would be united. Therefore for us to conclude that we must agree upon a certain view of alcohol, or a certain view of schooling, or a certain view of meat sacrificed to idols, or a certain view of the millennium in order to have fellowship together is, I think, not only unnecessary for the body of Christ, but it is therefore both unwarranted and therefore condemned by scripture. So if you’re a pastor and you’re listening to me, you understand me correctly if you think I’m saying you are in sin if you lead your congregation to have a statement of faith that requires a particular millennial view.”
Sorry. That’s ridiculous. Churches quite often have their positions on the spiritual gifts included in their statements of faith. Is that divisive & thus sin? Churches often have their view of baptism included in their statement of faith. Is that sin on their part to include it?
Baloney. A church’s statement of faith is not a position paper on what essential doctrines show that someone is a born-again Christian; it’s a statement showing what an individual congregation believes (or a larger denomination believes) on certain points - *including* non-essentials.
Dever is himself drawing a line in the sand that doesn’t need to be drawn.
>>>“Therefore, I conclude that it is sin to divide the body of Christ—to divide the body that he prayed would be united.<<<
How can he say this with a straight face?
Tim,
AMEN!!! Well stated!!!
Good points, Tim…. How far do you take a statement like Dever’s, before you cut out every doctrine that might be considered a divisive element and render the church impotent?
centy,
Exactly. I enjoy the irony of dividing over not being divisive. Gave me a chuckle.
Dever,
To enforce your statement making it wrong to post these details in a Statment of Faith; should we then post this rule on our churches Statment of faith? And if one disagrees how do we deal with that, surely we cannot divide over THIS issue either.
Your argument supplements statement of faith with salvation, and divide with disagree.
I just put up an article that briefly describes the second meeting Calvary Chapel Cheyenne had as they seek to minister to those who suffer emotionally in their church. It went well! If you’d like to read the recap follow this link! God bless!
http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/calvary-chapel-cheyenne-update/
For those of us who actually run churches, that is count offerings, pay energy bills, mortgages, facility staff, trash removal etc. we never understand the blanket negative reference to the church as a business. Money in, money out, stay in the black, stewardship, honesty, generosity, all of it has a biblical component. God does not hate us pastor’s who have to handle his resources with wisdom and godliness. We’re a big target.
Where’s Victorious? I haven’t seen him in a while.
Interesting comments by Dever. There isn’t exactly enough precision to wholly agree or disagree. Similarly, I made a post not long ago called “Alcoholism vs. Legalism” quoting from Piper’s ch. on “peashooter regulations” from Brothers We Are Not Professionals. Interesting discussion on where and why people draw lines.
It seems unbiblical to draw lines across Christian liberty even where convictions differ.
Pastor squared,
I’m not opposed to what you’re talking about, with regard to running a church. Of course there are business aspects, and it’s just good stewardship to pay your bills, meet expenses, etc. There are many good reasons to do it right.
But IMHO, there’s a big difference between running a church like a business — where everything is held hostage to the bottom line and people get steamrolled — and recognizing that the church has businesslike functions but that shouldn’t drive the church. The church is about relationships, primarily.
Does that make any sense?
To clarify, I agree that a church should put their views on these teachings in their statement of faith. What I appreciated from Dever is that it should not be something over which we divide.
Lutheran said But IMHO, there’s a big difference between running a church like a business — where everything is held hostage to the bottom line and people get steamrolled — and recognizing that the church has businesslike functions
Bingo!
CK -
Maybe we could define the term “division.” MLD & Lutheran believe in infant baptism, amillennialism, & (I assume) the cessation of the gifts. There is a division in their deeply held beliefs & mine on those matters. However, I am assured that both of them are saved by grace through faith just as I am & we share the same Lord: the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Are we divided? Yes. Are we unified? Yes. The division that exists does so to our mutual benefit as both they & I have different congregations with which we can join in undistracted worship of our Lord & King.
To posit that *all* division is wrong is to use the word in awfully black & white terms. There are legitimate theological issues that arise that may cause us to have difficulty consistently worshipping side-by-side on a regular basis, yet at the same time cause no difficulty in us recognizing each other as believers in Christ.
Those sort of things are exactly what is clarified in a church’s statement of faith (and for the Lutherans, this is why the Book of Concord includes much more than the historical ecumenical creeds). And that’s why it’s so important for church statements to be clear on the matter.
And by the way…I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m picking on MLD or Lutheran. I respect them both & was just using an example of what Dever might call “division” among our own community.
Tim
Lutheran and MLD need to be picked on.
Remember, MLD is the king of “pot stirrers”. 
Tim,
Well said.
The Lutheran Confessions as found in the Book of Concord to an extent are meant to be divisive.
The Augsburg Confession was a direct statement brought before the Holy Roman Empire to distinguish where the reformers differed from the teachings of the pope and the RCC. The Apology to the Augsburg Confession is the statement given as a defense to the reply of the pope to the Augsburg Confession (called the confutation). So, on their own they are divisive.
The Formula of Concord can be considered divisive also as it was a restatement of Lutheran beliefs (50 yrs after Augsburg) to counter error that had crept into the Church.
So, one man’s confession of faith by nature will exclude others. Is that bad?
MLD,
Evidently according to Mr. Dever it is. You exclusionist…..tsk, tsk…
MLD,
Here’s how I see it: If you were to change your view on Infant baptism, and then say,
“The issue of infant baptism I think, not only unnecessary for the body of Christ, but it is therefore both unwarranted and therefore condemned by scripture. So if you’re a pastor and you’re listening to me, you understand me correctly if you think I’m saying you are in sin if you lead your congregation to have a statement of faith that requires a particular pedo-baptismal view.”
To me, that’s a bigger issue than the doctrine being discussed. That’s changing your view, and then saying, “Let’s not argue about me changing my view.”
At least that’s how this grandstander sees it. Mileage may vary.
Dever overstates the case… he can say that having a position on the millennium in the faith statement is a mistake but to call it a sin simply is not his call.
Furthermore, the divide between a historic premil and an amil person is small enough to easily bridge but the gap between amil and pretib premil is so vast as to make fellowship nearly impossible.
I am not divided with a pretribber merely over the 1000 years but over, how to interpret scripture, over Israel, over the mission and nature of the church, and at times over Christology… (as per who is in view in Dan 9; Christ or antichrist)?
Dread,
Well said. We have a bigger gap due to our hermenutic differences, and these foster much of our disagreement.
And I thought Amils were just hard headed!
Brian D~
Yes, he made some really good points!
and the link is certainly appreciated!
I love a good conversion story…
http://eschatologystuff.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/problems-with-premillennialism-by-sam-storms/
Sam’s will probably not cause much Storm.
Let me reiterate a point…
ALL I KNOW IS that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved…. no doubt
Lutheran,
That makes perfect sense in the world of church life where relationships and preaching Jesus must stand as priorities supported by the business of the church. The distinction between business and businesslike needs to be made to take the target off the backs of those of us attempting to be good stewards of God’s provision. Thanks!
Bob S,
C’mon now.
Lumping me with MLD?
Oh, OK. I guess someone has to be.
Tim,
I like what you said.
I haven’t been a Luteran my whole life, but I don’t think any of the
issues you cited (eschatology, spiritual gifts or even baptism) are
considered first-order theological issues.
Not all Lutherans are cessationists. People are free to agree to disagree.
I have a quick question(s). Cottonwood Christian Center pastored by Bayless Conley is nearby. Friends of ours are looking to join. I recall visiting several years ago and they had stuff by Hagin and Copeland for sale and “Rhema” school if memory serves me.
Anyone have information on CCC? I went thru the web site and couldn’t find anything. If I am wrong in my recollection I am open to correction. Thanks.
I appreciate the Jolly Blogger giving the lie to that stupid statement about apologizing to Sodom and Gomorrah… I grew weary with that one on about the 3rd repeat…
I would have added however, the caveat that a good analysis of America might find judgment well underway….
When you tell others that they are “in sin” to divide over issues like alcohol, schooling, or views of the millennium aren’t you essentially dividing?
So, if I understand Dever correctly, it is not Godly to divide over differing views of alcohol consumption, home-schooling, or the End Times. But, it is appropriate to divide with people who have decided that they want to divide?
I think I just got trapped on a Mobius Strip thought pattern.
I thought that Carl Trueman, ironically, came off sounding like a whiner when he told everyone else to stop whining. There is way more to christianity than just being intellectually right. Among other things, you’re supposed to be loving and kind and considerate of others. Maybe Carl receives a lot of “hurt mail” (
) because he argues issues and ideas while ignoring the flesh-and-blood aspects of those issues.
Jesus may have been harsh toward the Pharisees, but He seemed pretty darn caring and compassionate toward the wounded, the weary, and the hurting.
“There is way more to christianity than just being intellectually right. Among other things, you’re supposed to be loving and kind and considerate of others.
Jesus may have been harsh toward the Pharisees, but He seemed pretty darn caring and compassionate toward the wounded, the weary, and the hurting.”
Amen Jessica!!!!!! good to see you posting btw!
I’m divided over whether I want Fish & Chips or Bangers & Mashed for dinner my first night in Ft. Lauderdale for vacation.
I may need to repent…or seek a sign.
Eric~
go with the Fish and Chips!
You want bangers and mash.
Oh, and have a wonderful vacation!
and make sure you preach the gospel too that your vacation be not in vain!
It depends if you accept the legitimacy of denominations to begin with. If Jesus prays that we be one, then how can we place our personal preferences above His prayer? Isn’t the striving to be one a part of doing His work?
Jessica…
MTM -
I suggest there can be unity in diversity. When we agree on the essentials, we are one - not by our work, but by Jesus’ work within us.
We include our beliefs in our Statement of Faith so that people will know what we believe and therefore can make a better judgment of whether they want to fellowship with us. We mention in our SOF that the non-essential doctrines that we hold to do not necessarily need to be believed by everyone in order for them to attend our fellowship. We have people with different eschatological persuasions in our fellowship and so far it has never been a point of contention, or a reason to divide.
I agree with what Tim said about unity can exist with diversity over non-essential beliefs. It really comes down to whether people are willing to not make it of utmost importance that everyone believe the same as they do.
I think that non denom guys are just as divisive as denominational guys (and gals
)
The non denom guy is just saying, “I have my beliefs and I am going to be over here by myself and don’t want to associate with your beliefs.”
In other words “my way is right and I won’t compromise by joining another group.”
“my way is right and I won’t compromise by joining another group.”
who doesn’t say that?
What right do you have to do/say/require things which divide you from other believers? When you do that you act as if the church is yours.
The gathered church has the right to set distinctives and determine it’s identity. It has already done so in seven ecumenical councils. That right is reserved for the gathered church in it’s fullness.
MTM,
If you really want to be ONE, agree with me!
I agree with MTM agreeing with MLD
I am surprised no one has commented on Frances Hunter’s passing.
I’m also surprised no one has commented on the iMonk link, nor on Eugene Peterson and church planting.
The link on the oldest known Bible is the Codex Sinaitucus, and yes, Sis, it is amazing. I can’t read Greek, of course, but what especially catches my eye is the calliography of the manuscript. It has a very modern look to it, and has a very striking, and attractive, look.
Even if you think it’s as boring as heck, you owe it to yourself to look at it.
I dont know who Frances Hunter is.
Read the Imonk one and agreed
Eugene Peterson is awesome
im pro church planting, if they are watered and fertilized, otherwise its plantiside
Ps 119:63 I am a companion of all who fear You, And of those who keep Your precepts.
I have never had trouble in fellowship with others. It is when people decide to do some outward grand show of our unity that it all falls apart
Overall, I have not been hindered from being a companion to all who who love the Lord.I show respect for their differences and they for mine. We respect them enough to not try to convert each other.
I do know there are a lot of things we must avoid to keep that fellowship, but everyone I fellowship with are more than glad to put those things aside.
As a general rule If you are friendly, they are friendly back at ya, if you attack they attack back.
Pr 18:24 A man who has friends must himself be friendly,
I give up… imonk link?
As for the Happy Huntress… she is an irrelevant caricature to most here… I got some reaction by reposting it on my FB… all positive…
The Peterson letter is a throwback. He wants the Pastor to be at the center of pastoral care and life…I both like and hate it.
Conflicts over expectations hound pastors lives … Peterson’s advice will lead to a great deal of heightened expectation on the part of the parishoners… at least that is what experience has taught me.
hi family, I know I haven’t been around and may not have a right to ask but…I really need prayer tonight…the enemy’s grip is very strong tonight.
Hi Dusty
There is no RIGHT to prayer… We will pray … am praying for you…
Praying for you Dusty. If all you do is come to ask for prayer we will be here. God bless!
Dusty praying. Just because you haven’t been around doesn’t mean that you presence is not felt. I see you finger prints all over this site everyday, mostly when grace is given as we interact with each other. Besides family is always family, regardless if we speak to each other everyday. Praying God brings you peace and comfort this evening.
Hi, dusty –
Prayers are ascending on your behalf.
Personally you are all right, I am teetering on the edge of faith and it scares me, I cant seem to see the clearness many other see. I really try not to be so cynical, I repent of it almost hourly, I dont know if anyone else has ever fought against a besetting sin like that, I do. I hate it and it drags me down. It also kept me out of cults, and helped others get out of them, it gets real confusing.
Dusty….praying for you. Always.
Brian…praying for you as well.
HI Dusty, Praying for you sweet sister.
Unity amongst diversity. I find it such joy to read and be blessed by someone on one issue, say grace, and yet can disagree on another, say end times. How incredible it is that we are completely united in Christ and yet can disagree about other issue. Just give me Jesus!!!
Dusty,
May God’s light fill your eyes
May God’s love warm your heart
May God’s voice fill your ears
May you know that He is with you in the midst of this storm
May you know you are beloved by Him
May You be filled with a peace that surpasses ALL understanding.
God’s grace and love to you, dear sister. God bless and keep you. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.
dusty,
came late to the party, but will continue to pray.
filster
brian
Get off that precipice… reading your posts.. you are a bright guy and you know THE FAITH is solid… You know that Jesus Christ is the unassailable cornerstone. You will not stumble at him. Besetting sin? Sure we all fight some damn relentless fleshly thing… but Jesus is the Captain of our salvation and he guides us safely through.
I love your honesty but it is so relentless sometimes I wonder if you are baiting. Still keep it coming friend because you are a bright one and a thinking soul and a real pilgrim…
But no jumping off the edge…
bri-
hey…just quit watching christian tv. that’ll do anyone’s head in.