So…I get a call asking me to do some counseling over the phone with a lady who just lost her mom.
The lady just needs some assurance that her mom is in heaven and some tools to help her with the grieving process.
She attends a local mega church pastored by a man I respect and has faithfully attended every time the doors have opened for the last three years.
It took about five minutes of conversation to understand that this sorrowful saint had never heard the Gospel.
Her mom was in heaven because of the good life she had lived and she would live a good life too so she would see her again.
The question that was literally tearing her up was…had she done enough?
Was the good life lived good enough to avoid eternal hell?
I told her that it wasn't about what we do…it's about what He did.
That was the most shocking news she had ever heard.
Channeling my inner Lutheran, I repeated it like a mantra over the next hour or so.
It's not about our works, but His finished work on our behalf.
After the call ended…I felt better myself.
In the midst of my own depression and doubt the simple bare Gospel was the answer for me too.
It's not about what I do, who likes or doesn't like me, how depraved or holy I am, how much I've succeeded or failed miserably at living out my life.
It's about Him.
He lived a perfect life in my place and died for my sins…all of them.
It is finished…it's a completed work and it has all been imputed to me.
It's all His and He's given it all to me.
I don't have to perform…He did.
I can see the sun breaking over a cross this morning…
I heard the Good News…and it's really good news.
It's not about me, it's about Him.
Wish I'd have told myself earlier…. think I might tell my church about this too.
Amen! The gospel really is *good* news. I was thinking about sharing something similar with our men tomorrow at our monthly prayer breakfast.
Some reasons the glorious gospel is so glorious…found in Romans 5:
1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2. through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4. and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
5. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
We have been justified by faith…
We have been reconciled - put at peace with God…
We have unfettered access to God…
He equips us to stand in His grace…
We can rejoice in hope…
We are shaped into Godly character…
We experience the abundant love of God…
…ALL through the work of Jesus Christ!
Hey Michael,
Do you have an address where I can email you?
That’s what I was talking about with a brother the other night…we’re all messed up, but it’s not about what we do, it’s what He did for us.
One of our pastors has reminded me of that again and again. He even told me to preach the gospel to myself, daily.
It still sounds weird to me, though. Like I expect to get sent to hell anyway because I don’t do enough, I can’t do enough and aren’t even trying…that if I decide to strive hard enough and try my very best, all the time, that will be enough to earn and keep me in the black when it comes to my salvation.
Man oh man….
gdizzle,
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
BrianD -
Think of it this way: you didn’t work to earn any favor with God; that was all due to the work of Jesus Christ. Why would you work to *keep* the favor of God? Every good & perfect gift we have is given to us by God because of the work of Jesus Christ.
Obviously we do good things & strive to live godly lives - but we do so as a *result* of Jesus’ work. We don’t do it to attempt to make ourselves look better in the sight of God - that’s simply not possible. Our ongoing works in Christ is just as much due to His grace as the initial moment we placed our faith in Him.
Does that make sense? I might be kind of fuzzy this morning.
***In the midst of my own depression and doubt the simple bare Gospel was the answer for me too.
It’s not about what I do, who likes or doesn’t like me, how depraved or holy I am, how much I’ve succeeded or failed miserably at living out my life.***
Spiritually speaking it’s not about what we do, but here in this world isn’t your emotional state impacted by the things we do, who likes us, how depraved/holy we are, and how much we’ve succeeded or failed and living out our lives. If you grow up in an environment where lots of people dislike you or if you have a job where you have little success or sense of accomplishment then you’re probably going to feel depressed. In those cases, how is hearing the gospel going to make you less depressed?
Michael
If the mega church you mentioned is the one I think it is I would be shocked that she never heard the gospel…unless something’s changed. God Bless this lady but could it be the Gospel was preached but she just didn’t hear it?
I’ve said things over and over (at least I thought I did)and people have heard other things. They’ve also so “It’s like you said…” then go on to say something I never actually said. Their brains were somewhere else or on something else
“It took about five minutes of conversation to understand that this sorrowful saint had never heard the Gospel.”
Whether it’s that or what Steve just said, either way TONS of “our” people evidently have not really “heard” the Gospel.
I shared the Gospel with an 18 year old white suburban kid who didn’t know the Gospel…who attends the megachurch around the corner.
Maybe we need to understand that the Great Commission isn’t just teaching, it’s “teaching them to observe all the I’ve commanded.”
The Gospel is amazing…I want to make sure everyone hears, knows AND understands it!
“That”
Micheal, thank you for the post. It is SO true. Our feelings, friends, families and circumstances lie to us all the time, but the simple Gospel is the truth. It is the hope for the hopeless, strenght for the weak, joy for the sorrowful, and life for those who are dying.
Jessica - knowing that the Gospel is truth regardless of our current emotional state is where the comfort lies. Our feelings will ebb and flow, but the truth of Christ doesn’t change. To me, that is a great source of joy.
Michael,
See, now that’s a GREAT message/teaching to give to a congregation! “I had this struggle, here’s how God stepped in and helped me, it is a picture of the Gospel, and so flock — that’s how God can help you too out of your slough of depression.”
That’s not showing weakness — that’s merely giving a personal example of how to apply biblical doctrine. That was very, very good.
I’d like to talk about this one statement:
“It’s not about my performance, it’s about what He did.”
If I had a nickel for every time I heard that phrase in the Reformed, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Episcopal churches I’ve been in, I’d be able to buy the new Casting Crowns album “Till The World Hears” that I’m dying to get soon … JUST KIDDING!!
I know your heart on this statement, Michael, so this is not directed at you at all. But rather is just a lamenting of what I feel is a very one-sided hermeneutic. It is the tendency in many of the churches I named above to exalt the work of Christ to the great *diminishment* of our grateful response of obedience. It’s almost a strange blend of neo-antinomianism. I’ve heard it said, more than once (and I take excellent notes in sermons!) that “God is pleased with you no matter if you sin like the devil, because you trust the Gospel. No matter how much you desire to obey Him, He looks only at Christ’s obedience and not your own. Christ did all the “doing,” all your part is to do is love Him and love His finished work. That’s true in salvation, and that’s true post salvation.”
Having a spiritual discipline of daily Bible study and prayer was frowned upon because it is a “work.” “We are not under law…” — I heard so many times. “God isn’t interested in your outward actions for His kingdom, He is sovereign, He cares more about what you believe – do you believe He is the Christ? Then God will never be more pleased with you than that.”
Somehow, obeying the Bible and truly desiring to please Him, and love Him out of deep thankfulness for the way He saved me, for the way He had patience with me!!, and sanctified me and delivered me out of depression and all kinds of things … and out of deep thankfulness to want to serve Him with the rest of my days and obey Him in every known thing – this is a “work.”
I’m not talking about working and obeying to gain salvation! That was done by His grace alone, by faith in Christ alone.
I’m speaking of a heartfelt, burning desire to continue spending the rest of my life savoring His every word and seeking to honor Him with my life – that is called “legalism” and a “perversion of the gospel.” I love going to Bible studies, especially long ones, and every word taught is like a Christmas gift to open and “unpack,” and then to try to apply it to one’s life in the hopes of becoming more like Him. I honestly don’t understand, and I have so tried to understand, where I am in error on this.
Is it so wrong to deeply crave God’s Word taught and expounded upon? And then to be excited about wanting to go and “do” what I just heard?? Please, tell me!
Is it bordering on legalism?
I’m sort of cranky about this subject, and I’m sorry. It really upsets me. The entire SCRIPTURE is FULL of admonishments, exhortations, instructions for holy living, etc. These things were written for our INSTRUCTION and it is NOT “legalistic” to teach a flock that “Yes, you are saved by God’s good grace, His merciful grace, and His finished work ALONE – but if you are truly a Christian, don’t you want and desire so much to please Him and serve Him by obeying His good and holy law?”
Obeying Christ is not a burden at all – obeying him is a JOY!
OK, time to start my day.
Steve said —
** “God Bless this lady but could it be the Gospel was preached but she just didn’t hear it? I’ve said things over and over (at least I thought I did)and people have heard other things. They’ve also so “It’s like you said…” then go on to say something I never actually said. Their brains were somewhere else or on something else.” **
Steve,
It DOES happen. I had a bad case of “selective hearing” for years on end. I am amazed at God’s patience with me…
I was just like that lady.
Some of us had this discussion on another blog and I hope it’s not derailing this one but “What is the gospel?”. Some use 1 Cor 15 to answer that question but the gospel message to me at least runs all the way thru the OT and into the NT. It’s God is Holy, we are sinners and need a sacrifice. God has given us the once and for all sacrifice needed in Christ and the gap between sinner and God is bridged as atoning benefits are received thru faith alone
***Jessica - knowing that the Gospel is truth regardless of our current emotional state is where the comfort lies. Our feelings will ebb and flow, but the truth of Christ doesn’t change. To me, that is a great source of joy.***
I honestly don’t understand why that’s comforting. Theoretically, a person could live 80 or 90 years in miserable circumstances, but their supposed to find comfort in God and heaven? Far from comforting I find that hugely depressing.
Interesting, the early church had to work hard to keep the gospel message the gospel message and while connected, separate from moral living. Apparently they felt the need to treat the gospel message separate from message of moral living. Issues of sin and sectarianism in Corinth forced men like Clement to have to step in and give direction but even so, the main goal of the apostles and the Patristics seems to be to preserve the clear message of the gospel
Yes … It’s ALL about what He did! Amen!
It always amazes me when God not only works in the life of the one being comforted … but also … in the one He uses to be the tool to bring His good news & comfort. Truly amazing! Blows my mind every time!
Steve,
It’s actually a better church in my opinion than the one you’re thinking of.
Our messages on what we should be doing seem to blot out the message about what He’s done.
Steve,
I absolutely concur with your understanding of the gospel….good call.
Holly,
The problem comes when I don’t have a heartfelt desire to pray, study, praise or practice any of the spiritual disciplines.
What happens then?
What happens to most is depression or even rejection of the faith because they can’t perform up to some standard.
Thats where I’ve been …and why the pure gospel is my only hope.
God is holy, we are sinners, and need a sacrifice.. While not using the same words, I spoke about this recently in the context of worship. We are unrighteous people seeking to commune and touch the righteous heart of God. It is because of what Jesus has done that we have the opportunity to dwell in the beauty of holiness. It is more than what we have appropriated, it is how we live.
This is why I always go back to the statement that in the Lutheran Church the law and the gospel are preached every single week to a house full of believers - because believers NEED to hear it every single week - they need to hear what Jesus has done for them and why. (I am not speaking about an evangelistic message, but a message of continual hope for the believer)
I will tell you what this lady heard each week (without knowing for sure). She heard what get’s preached in most evangelical churches when they do get around preaching the gospel (don’t throw any stones until I am done.)
Instead of preaching the law in all of it’s harshness and condemnation and then the gospel in all of it’s sweetness & forgiveness - and then leaving it there and allow people to just walk out saying “this is too good to be true”, they preach first the gospel (what Jesus has already done) and finish with the law (what I must do to keep God pleased) and they let the people walk out with their to do list.
So, what are the people going to remember hearing? I would venture a guess that it is their ‘to do’ list they remember NOT what Christ has done for them and without their help.
MLD,
That was certainly true of the person I was counseling…
“What happens to most is depression or even rejection of the faith because they can’t perform up to some standard.”
Because none of us can.
But should we then invalidate the standard? May it never be!
We bring glory to God in our failures, weakness, sickness and diseases. One might ask how can being a failure bring glory to God?
Because I need Him!
PS. I found God does just fine without me.
Jessica:
That’s because you, like all of us, have been sold a cultural bill of goods.
“I have to be happy, I have to be happy, I have to be…”
The mantra of the human existence (see all those people didn’t have to pay for the Maharaji’s lessons after all).
My navel has lint in it.
Just a random image about the Psalms.
Have a great day!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshbostonlabs/3745087754/
Jessica - 80 or 90 years is very small in the scope of eternity…and the depression we feel is likely no permenant anyway. Of course, there are biological problems that require medication as well, but that’s kind of a different subject.
Channeling my inner Lutheran… good one.
It is so good to get down to brass tax - it’s all about Him.
On the note of hearing the Gospel. Perhaps the gospel has been preached in her church, but she never “heard” it.
Sometimes I have to be told things several time before I get a clue.
“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” CS Lewis
This was the point I was trying to make in my last post.
Michael,
“Inner Lutheran.” That made my day.
Great post.
Don Matzat who used to host “Issues, Etc.” would say, “This Christianity — IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU!”
I also agree with Holly, that Christian obedience is important.
The problem is, our sin nature constantly wants to put us back on a religious treadmill, so our focus turns from Christ to the Christian
and what he does (ie, us). It’s really hard to find a balance.
I’ve posted this before, but I like this article from Matzat that compares the Christian life to running the bases. The problem is, when you reach third base, instead of heading to home, confessing, “God, be merciful to me a sinner,” and starting the cycle over again, we get derailed by promises of Christian perfection and activity. IMHO, that’s where real Christian growth occurs.
(This probably won’t make much sense unless you read the article.)
http://www.issuesetcarchive.org/articles/nbiss17.htm
I meant to say Christian growth occurs as we go ’round the bases — not when we get derailed by sanctification promises.
Michael
ugm
Lutheran,
I am very grateful for the consistent Lutheran witness we’ve had on this blog.
Your side of the family brings much to our table…
Bob,
I’ll catch up after work…
Jessica,”I honestly don’t understand why that’s comforting. Theoretically, a person could live 80 or 90 years in miserable circumstances, but their supposed to find comfort in God and heaven? Far from comforting I find that hugely depressing.”
well, a view from the other end of the rope: You bet it’s comforting!
But I understand where you’re coming from, too, I think. Even, tho, you **know** that our lives are short and soon over, that’s not how it feels as you live it…
When I was growing up, my parent’s took care of my physical needs–I had food, I had clothes, I had a roof over my head. But, at the same time, they were very emotionally neglectful. The fact that I am thankful they provided for my physically, does not prevent their neglect from hurting me to this day.
When people describe what God does for humans, it seems like they are describing someone who does what my parents did–provide for my basic needs but emotionally ignore me. I’m thankful that I get to go to heaven, but that thankfulness does not ameliorate the constant and nearly overwhelming sorrow that God does not care about me on any more than the most basic level.
Jessica,
You raise a good point.
I get really itchy when I see all the Christian promises out there about how wonderful the Faith will be for us on a horizontal level.
Truth is, we’re flesh and blood and grit just like everyone else. We’re saint AND sinner. NonChristians can also figure out how to live a happy relational life. To think that God will somehow magically
cure all one’s horizontal issues is largely a fiction, IMHO.
Time to praise the Lord this morning (a little tearie). YES! Hasn’t anyone noticed that their flesh is deteriorating? What works can death bring to God for merit. Our self-produced righteousness stinks of rotting flesh.
It’s not about our human produce (good or bad), it’s about what God can instill of Himself in our lives. It’s about what THAT produces. Our blood-bought redeemed lives that are now trapped, if you will, in an ‘earthen vessel.’
Yielding our souls to serve the new man, not the old is the name of the battle. If you can accomplish that by will-power and nice thoughts, well I envy you.
I’m in agreement with Holly. Our lifetime is not long enough here on earth to master the Word of God, but oh how rich and delicious it is! It is how we develop the mind of Christ. A Lutheran or a Presbyterian service’s 15 minute homily is like an hors d’oeuvre. IMO
Michael,
You’re a very gracious guy.
I love the dialogue on here.
Blessings to you.
I should amend my reference to the Lutes and Presbys - any Sunday morning ritual without reality service or sermon with substance…
There’s a place for random thoughts and rambling, I guess, tho… Michael, hasn’t kicked me off here, yet.
Jessica,
For the moment, forget everything you have been taught on this topic and read the attached article. I have posted this before. It addresses precisely you questions. It isn’t necessarily how God works in suffering (now that you are suffering, here is God’s plan) but it is the fact that that is how God works - through suffering.
It will be time well spent - and I guarantee that you have never heard it in your churches.
http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=310
“sermon with substance???” meant without substance…
ah me, I need some breakfast
forgive the presumption, but this is sooo good…excerpt from MLD’s link:
“The theology of glory calls suffering “evil” and the absence of suffering it calls “good.” It sees suffering and death as defeat and loss, a failure on God’s part to be a decent deity. It sees the sufferer and says, “There but for the grace of God go I.” The theology of the cross sees things as they are and names them for what they are-sin and death, grace and mercy, body and blood. It sees in suffering and death the hidden hand of God at work in, with, and under all things. It sees the sufferer and says, “There by the grace of God goes he.”
and we pray for each other and bring down more of that grace, perhaps, eh?
psalm,
“A Lutheran or a Presbyterian service’s 15 minute homily is like an hors d’oeuvre. IMO”
You show that you don’t know what you are talking about. With the Lutheran service, the liturgy is ALL God’s word (not just the sermon). The hymns, the readings, the prayers, confession / absolution and the lord’s supper - All God’s word - even the benediction.
What you normally experience in an evangelical church is ‘a bunch of stuff’ and then you get to ‘God’s word’ (the preachin’). I agree that it is different.
And another point, in most evangelical services, you don’t get a sermon or homily - you get a Bible study. We happen to do Bible studies in class rooms Sunday morning - not from the pulpit.
MLD, I know what I’m talking about - I just don’t always use clear examples
your point is taken…
n most evangelical services, you don’t get a sermon or homily - you get a Bible study
And if you’re unlucky…a heapin’ helpin’ of your pastor’s favorite
Christian cliches, unfounded opinions, boring anecdotes, and for the really lucky, the latest right-wing conspiracy rumors.
Psalm 62 said —
** “I’m in agreement with Holly. Our lifetime is not long enough here on earth to master the Word of God, but oh how rich and delicious it is! It is how we develop the mind of Christ. A Lutheran or a Presbyterian service’s 15 minute homily is like an hors d’oeuvre. IMO.” **
….
I so agree with you, Psalm 62! The Lutherans were great (the Presbyterian Churches: REALLY dry, imo), and I enjoyed the Lutheran liturgy, especially the weekly confession of sin to God before each service, but I needed…I desperately CRAVED, like a starving person hungering for one tiny bite of bread, for solid, verse by verse teaching.
I told Michael I felt like I was drying up spiritually, and even he noticed it and commented on it alot — that my fervor and desire for God was dampening because my spiritual diet had become so poor. I needed some solid food fast or I would perish. There is just something about the simple, through the Bible teaching (even the duller parts like lists of people’s names in the OT!/geneologies) that satisfy the soul and help a person to feel as if they’re not starving anymore. I truly was perishing on the vine. Homilies are OK, even interesting at times, but I always wanted the pastor to go on for another hour or so — and not so “on the surface” either. It never got very deep.
I heard it said many years ago, when I first became a Christian, that a coal out of the fireplace gets cold before long. I was always skeptical of that — I thought I could keep the coal hot all by myself — just me and God, you know.
I thought I knew better than the pastor who said that during his sermon. I could feed myself just fine, and who cares what kind of church you go to, it doesn’t matter, because I can just go home and read the Bible myself. And make up the difference that way. Well, I was dead wrong.
Thank God for the Church and for pastor/teachers who help the flock to grow, like so many of you pastors on this blog, because I know now what happens when you lack that. By God’s grace I didn’t shipwreck, for I have known people who have sadly done just that.
Michael wrote: The problem comes when I don’t have a heartfelt desire to pray, study, praise or practice any of the spiritual disciplines.
What happens then?
Since I was misunderstood by you yesterday, I will tread lightly here. But I do think this is important for all of us to understand. What happens when we don’t feel like going to work? We go any way because we need the money or will get fired. We discipline ourselves to do what we need and not just what we want. In the process of exercising that discipline, we find great joy and blessing or, in the absence of joy, we find great strength to persevere. It’s like physical exercise; I hate doing it (more than I can communicate) but I know at my age I must do it if I want to be healthy enough to serve God. I force myself to do what I hate doing and reap the benefits of the discipline. Just a thought for those who often don’t feel like studying their Bible and/or praying: how would our lives change if you spent 1/4 the time in the Bible that we do on-line?
MLD said -
** “With the Lutheran service, the liturgy is ALL God’s word (not just the sermon). The hymns, the readings, the prayers, confession / absolution and the lord’s supper - All God’s word - even the benediction.” **
…
Yes, there is an OT reading and the NT reading and the prayers, hymns etc during Lutheran services. But what I think Psalm 62 is saying (and what I’m saying as well) is that we (us personally) don’t need just the *reading* of the Scriptures — we need an *exposition* of those Scriptures, verse by verse. Therein lies the difference.
Off to the Physical Therapist, I did something to my back again.
m*b,
Did you ever go to the pastor’s Bible study class on Sunday morning?
About the readings, usually the pastor’s sermon comes from one of the readings. So let’s see, the Lutheran pastor teaches a 45 min bible study in class and does a 15-20 min sermon based on one of the readings.
If I were to click onto a Chuck Smith Sunday morning sermon, he will take 1 verse from the passage to be taught Sunday night and preach just on the one verse. I think 45 min on one verse is over kill.
Anyway, no matter how you twist it, you are only getting one hour a week of teaching at church - and there are 168 hours in a week - so I think we are all somewhat ’self taught’ the rest of the week.
m*b.
btw, I hope they fix your back.
Michael wrote:
“It’s not about what I do, who likes or doesn’t like me, how depraved or holy I am, how much I’ve succeeded or failed miserably at living out my life.
It’s about Him.
He lived a perfect life in my place and died for my sins…all of them.
It is finished…it’s a completed work and it has all been imputed to me.
It’s all His and He’s given it all to me.
I don’t have to perform…He did.”
Wow, the power of the simple truth of the gospel!
I tell you, I’ve seen people struggle with sin and unbelief (myself included) from both sides of the pulpit.
In one camp, you have the regular joe christian who has little understanding of theology or doctrine and words like “exegesis”, “hermeneutics”, or other lofty and scholarly ministerial terms (not that those are bad, just illustrating a different perspective from my PK experiences with regular joes). The regular joe christian, most often, doesn’t catch all the nuance from the deep messages you all sometimes preach.
They leave the service and go about their normal lives and struggle with sin on a daily basis. They are in a constant cycle of being reminded about God on Sunday through the Word, and then having that guilt, shame and doubt creep back in Monday through Saturday, as they go out into the real world and the flesh has its way at times. Then Sunday comes again and they are renewed or sometimes, sadly, confused. Many have a child-like faith, because they don’t have the level of understanding of some of you. They know they are sinners and need the Lord’s work in their lives…they know it in their soul…and they believe in the simple gospel message. Often, the rest of the complex issues in scripture confuse the heck out of them (and sometimes cloud the simple truth). I know this is a pretty large generalization and not the only type of churchgoer, but it does represent a large group, IMO.
The other camp are you guys and many others in the church who examine every square inch of scripture and apply man’s logic to spiritual issues. Not saying it’s wrong. Just pointing out that in this camp, I’ve witnessed unbelief creep in from over-analysis. Like Michael brought up the other day about what to do with 1 Corinthians 12. It can often be pretty deflating to confront something in scripture that doesn’t fit inside your doctrinal box (which can cause doubt and unbelief to creep in). Sometimes the best answer, is just what Michael concluded. Turning the gospel into a rhetorical exercise, again IMHO, is sometimes a distraction and can lead to unbelief in this camp. Not that rightly dividing the Word of God isn’t important, it is. I’m talking about extremes.
I guess seeking balance, whatever that is, is the point (and I’m beginning to understand that I’m parroting Michael’s point, and many of your points). Make sure, like many of you do, to remember the simple message of the gospel and don’t let the devil get you off track over-emphasizing the defense of a doctrinal thesis. Remember the average joe christian and the simple truth of the gospel, for the benefit of both sides of the pulpit.
MLD, I understand what you’re saying about the Bible being taught ouside the Sunday ’service.’ Good, rich food available then - but my remembrance of my Presbyterian (pre-marital) years was that mebbe 1/5 dunno? of the membership (5,000) at the very most turned out for Sunday School. My husband’s Baptist minister taught a wonderful off campus mid-week outreach gathering, but his Sunday morning was canned food. Entertaining, inspirational even, well organized, but like Martin Luther King was accused of, it was canned. My point was that neither service served up a meal.
Aaand maybe ritual re-inforces Truth sufficiently for some as it did historically for all before the printed word and literacy opened up the Book for us hoi poloi… dunno about that either, tho
Where did we ever get the idea that God was going to rescue us from our horizontal problems? I thought the idea was more that he would enter into them and make His presence known and lift us spiritually above our trials, even though they may not end. I also thought the idea wasn’t about getting out of our troubles, but getting something out of them by learning what God had to teach us in them.
I think we choose to be many things in our circumstances. It’s just as easy to choose to be content as it is to be angry or frustrated. Emotions come from thought. We can control our thoughts. We make choices in what and how we think, which is why Christ said that as a man thinketh, so he is. We can bring out thoughts to Christ and have our minds renewed.
psalm,
I understand what you are saying but… as I pointed out Chuck Smith, the king of verse by verse will preach on just one verse in the morning based on the study that evening - but only 1/3rd go to the evening service to get the whole passage.
So what are you saying, since people won’t go to the Sunday School class that it needs to be forced on them in the Sunday morning service?
Look, I won’t say which is better - people need to decide for themselves, but the purpose of the Sunday morning service is completely different between liturgical churches and the modern day evangelical church.
hmmm, thinking through Anya’s post… For me it’s not ‘just as easy to choose to be content…’ but to proceed with her thoughts posted I am in total agreement that our mental attitude produces our responses to our circumstances. So, yes, we renew our minds in Christ. For me that requires taking in the Word and building a frame of reference. I am a great believer in ‘brain washing.’
That said, there have been times when it has been tough to even put two rational thoughts together and those times He has stepped in and been all sufficient in His supply. Much like Michael’s phone call. IMO that was God’s gift to him, what the woman gained was a fall-out benefit.
Oh, I love this Triune, Holy God of ours.
MLD, “So what are you saying, since people won’t go to the Sunday School class that it needs to be forced on them in the Sunday morning service?” dunno
the best teaching that I ever got was in a well attended study format, independent church - that said, the pastor was very insulated and isolated from the people he taught and the in-crowd were not a pleasant group of people in my experience. They smuggly claimed grace and showed disdain for the lesser enlightened. I’ve been surprised by how prevalant the ‘us and them’ attitude is among ‘us.’
God must be thrilled that we are so discerning…
One other thing - preaching can be boring in any church. I just don’t see any instruction that they need to be interesting or exciting. Didn’t the Apostle Paul put that one guy to sleep during his sermon and he fell out the window?
MLD -
“Didn’t the Apostle Paul put that one guy to sleep during his sermon and he fell out the window?”
Yep…which is exactly why you shouldn’t complain about 45 minute sermons. At least we’re going all night…
Nothing like a missed word to entirely ruin a joke.
“At least we’re NOT going all night”
d’oh!
Maybe we need to head back to Reformation times.
I heard a Lutheran seminary prof. say that in Luther’s time, an hour
sermon was normal. And Luther’s own pastor preached for up to two
hours.
Yowza.
Lutheran, everything is relative… life was pretty tough and tedious in Martin Luther’s day, wasn’t it? - maybe those sermons were a nice break
Lots of working moms today that would probably welcome an hour to sit and do nothing…
off to take on the cold outdoors as if I loved it (working on my attitude)
MLD,
Yes, I did in fact go to the Pastor’s Bible Study held in his offie weekly, and within a few weeks got into a doctrinal dispute with the guy.
He kept telling me that “at the moment of baptism, faith is created,” and through the process of confirmation that faith is established and confirmed. When pushed, he admitted that every child that is baptized WILL be saved, no matter if their life exhibits any fruit of salvation or not. That “it is all by God’s grace, by what occurs at baptism.”
I went home, studied hard, came back each week and went through the scriptures with him — it never made sense to me. We went round and round; he kept appealing to Mark 10:13-16. I tried really, really hard to understand and believe the Lutheran position (we were even looking at joining the church) — but in the end, the baptism issue was too much for me. There were some other issues too, having to do with eschatology, and also having to do with the role of grace/works in a believer’s life. But the baptism issue was the biggest. We parted ways amicably, and I liked many things about the Lutheran church, but I could not in good conscience “sign on the dotted line” (required for membership) saying that I accepted these doctrinal stances. Because I don’t. And I cringed (and did my kids) each time the pastor would say during the services, “Jesus, we thank You that through the waters of baptism you created saving faith in us, we thank You for this blessed means of grace, and thank You that in the baptismal waters we were were regenerated by Your Spirit. Thanks be to God!” It bothered me *every time* he said it.
** “” so I think we are all somewhat ’self taught’ the rest of the week.” **
Definitley true — I know I try (Lord willing, when I am not at Boy Scouts, etc) to study the Scriptures and my James Montgomery Boice commentaries (I have them all –I love that man’s teachings!!) for at least 1.5 to 2 hours hours per day. On weekends, sometimes more.
But I have to say, doing that *apart* from also hearing God’s word taught in a congregational setting, I found that even my self teaching through my books lacked any sort of fervor, fire, or application. It wasn’t enough, somehow. My soul was drying up apart from the regular gatherings of a church fellowship.
I don’t know why that is. Something to ponder when I have an idle moment for pondering!
I recently preached a message drawn from the conclusion of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount. The two ways, the two trees, and the two houses. Because I sensed that someone might start thinking they had better “do more” to get right with God, I made sure that the pure Gospel was made explicitly clear.
Sure, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, but the work of reconciliation is a completed work!
m*b,
Interesting. It usually is not the Lutheran position that everyone who gets baptized will be saved no matter what. I think that the closer version is that everyone who remains in the faith that they were baptized into will be saved. Lutherans do believe that people can walk away from their faith - it’s the reformed who believe once saved…
“I went home, studied hard, came back each week and went through the scriptures with him”
Baptism it self is the mixture of plain water and the word of God. I am curious as to what was your explanation to him - what is it that creates the faith in us.
Sounds like you had good discussions.
MLD said —
** “I am curious as to what was your explanation to him - what is it that creates the faith in us. Sounds like you had good discussions.” **
…..
We did have interesting discussions…it was intellectually stimulating for me – I love to discuss theology. I have a funny story – during one of our meetings, he said to me, “Go home and write out in detail exactly what your objections are, and what your position is, along with all pertinent scriptures exegeted that you think support your position. Come back next week and we’ll go through them one by one.”
So I went home and spent the weekend putting it all together – it was great fun! I researched Lutheran theology in depth as well as compiled all together my own belief, scriptural proofs and cross references, addressed also the argument of baptism being a sign of the covenant and entrance into the covenant community, the means of grace, the whole of paedobaptism, etc etc. It came to 47 pages (typed of course), all with footnotes and details references, quotes, etc. I tried to be as complete as possible, because I really wanted to understand what he was saying.
So I arrived at the meeting, handed him the document, and I swear, he just stared at me dumbfounded. Then he began flipping through the pages to the last page to check the page number. He said, “Let me guess – you were at the top of your class in school, weren’t you?”
I said, “What do you mean? You told me to write it down for you.”
He said, “Well…yes I did….but no one has ever brought me a 47 page dissertation on baptism before. I’m just surprised, that’s all. You’re very serious about this whole issue, aren’t you?”
To this day I’m not sure what he expected me to bring.
He did go through it all, made lots of notations on my pages, but to my dismay, he mainly stuck to Luther’s words and kept repeating Mark 10 over and over. I felt he never really addressed my objections in a way that made biblical sense (to me).
He was a very nice man, very dedicated to Martin Luther and his teachings, but…it was just a bump in the road I could not get past. He really didn’t address any of these: Acts 2:41 – those who received the word were baptized. Acts 10 - the sequence is clearly one of first receiving the Holy Spirit (only happens at conversion) and then being baptized. Acts 8:12 – first belief, then baptism. Over and over, it is belief followed by baptism. Baptism not being a means of grace but rather a public proclamation of that grace shown toward the sinner in salvation — a public proclamation of the person’s new birth. Acts 16 — God opened Lydia’s heart to believe, then she was baptised. The Philippian jailer — the Gospel was preached, the word received and baptism ensued. These are just a few examples – I don’t have time tonight to write a thesis on the blog. I have to take my son shopping for his Boy Scout camping trip which he is the Grub Master for.
But to answer your question: How is faith created in the heart? Well, “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.” 1) The Gospel is preached, 2) the person believes the truth/ faith is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and 3) the person is born again. They should then be baptized as entrance into the church and to publically proclaim their newfound allegiance to Jesus Christ.
I can hear it now — “so which comes first? Does the person believe first and the faith is then wrought, OR does God first open the heart to receive faith and then the person believes?” I’m not even going there.
I addressed this in my paper to the pastor. We could argue all day: “did the chicken come first or the egg?” The point is this: The Gospel MUST be preached, and in that context faith comes. We just need to focus on reaching the lost among us and be faithful to obey Matthew 28:19-20 in every area of influence we have — knowing that God promises to use the faithful preaching of His Gospel to bring souls into His kingdom.
In reading Pineapple’s 1:15 he said :The two ways, the two trees, and the two houses”
I am sure it is a great message and I have no intention of taking anything from it. But it sparked an thought in me. A lot of CC guys read Weirsby because he uses alliteration and memorable phrases. The pastor I served under was a tremendous communicator and would often outline his sermon something like “the Purpose of his coming, The Promise in His coming and the priority in His coming” Again very memorable. The question is, in outlining a sermon in that manner do we risk exchanging accuracy for memorability? Of course we should employ tools to help folks remember a passage but can it go too far?
It’s just a question. I will admit my bias in that at this juncture of humanity and the present state of culture, accuracy takes priority over memorability
m*b,
geez, I would have stayed at the church just for the personal interaction with the pastor and the theological challenge and stimulation. I can’t believe that you would leave to go to a church where you are just part of the audience.
Adult baptism in the Lutheran church is just as you describe above; “God opened Lydia’s heart to believe, then she was baptised. The Philippian jailer — the Gospel was preached, the word received and baptism ensued.”
But let me ask this - we are so fond of saying that salvation is by God’s grace alone through faith alone and that that very faith is a gift given to us by God Himself through the proclamation of the word - why is it that an infant cannot receive it in the same way? Why is it that through that same proclamation of the gospel, at the time of baptism, that God cannot give that baby the same ‘free gift’ faith (just as He does an adult) to receive salvation - unless you are going to say that there IS something that the person must do.
Look at it this way, we don’t distinguish between infant and adult - Lutherans baptize sinners in order to fulfill the great commission - after all baptism does come before teaching in the process of making disciples - at least in those verses.
And when it comes to teaching, think of it this way - have you ever been challenged to write a 47 page response to any other pastor. I think the man did his job.
jumping in here on ‘faith,’ baptisms, gospels etc like I knew something
since I’ve begun to think that baptism is not a salvation issue at all, I guess baptizing my baby is fine … does it make my baby ‘finer’ than an unbaptized baby?
what I can’t get around is the event recorded between the eunuch from Etheopia and Philip, tho - so it does seem that it (baptism) is of significance and we’d better freely submit to it as testimony of our faith, if at all possible - if John the Baptizer was around and I hadn’t heard of Jesus yet, I could be baptized (submerged in the Jordan?) as a confession of my sinful condition and my need of the promised Redeemer. If so, then were the Apostles and all the early post resurrection Saints baptized and the baptized again?
the way my reasoning works it involves volition on the part of the baptized, so… ?
So, I guess I would expect my sprinkled infant (why sprinkled and not immersed?) to later choose to be baptized (again) of his own choice… getting dangerously close to theology here and I’m way to fundy for that…
go get baptized sprinkled or dunked as your conscience directs and get on with rejoicing in the glorious gospel’s reality and promises - that’s the way it looks to me
God keep all safe and comforted tonight
I am always amazed that evangelicals continually run from baptism. More and more, people are discounting any ‘real’ value to baptism other that it is a witness (which always goes back to my comment - ’so is my bumper sticker’.)
People will not only say,’baptism doesn’t do anything - but here is the way you HAVE to do it’ it makes me ROTFLOL
I just wonder in Gal 3:27 “for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”
wouldn’t the natural assumption be that those who do not get baptized are NOT clothed in Christ? It sounds pretty important to me.
MLD said —
** “Geez, I would have stayed at the church just for the personal interaction with the pastor and the theological challenge and stimulation.” **
…
I know, it was fun. He told me that all those weeks was the most fun theologically he’s had in years, because he said much of his church doesn’t ask him anything of a deep level — either they don’t have an interest or whatever, he didn’t say, but he indicated that he wasn’t often asked so many questions and at such length. It was very kind of him to take the time he did.
…
** “I can’t believe that you would leave to go to a church where you are just part of the audience.” **
…
Well, being part of an audience is a-ok with me. Although I prefer the word ‘church,’ or ‘flock.’ 
I have Michael to bounce theological stuff off of. And, all of you smart people on this blog! But you’re right, the pastors at the church we now are part of aren’t the kind you ask questions of. (too busy, too many people) I shall have to pick the blog’s brains instead!
The Lutheran Church, as I said, was so wonderful that we were in the process of joining. I loved much about it, especially the absolution of sin. There were doctrinal issues, though, and also I felt VERY spiritually starved — it was too superficial/topical. One homily was on “giving thanks” and it sounded like a Hallmark card being read outloud — all 14 minutes of the homily. Another homily was on “peace” and most of the minutes were spent talking about the Beatles.
Different strokes for different folks, I know.
I really have nothing but good to say about the Lutheran Church - their catechism classes (we loved ours), their pastors, their liturgy, all excellent. It’s just that we decided to go where we now go because, well, we strongly believe God led us there. I know that definitely in my heart. Against all rational thought, I know, but, there it is. Our spiritual health has greatly improved already, so God knows what He’s doing. And we are happy there.
…
** “Adult baptism in the Lutheran church is just as you describe above; “God opened Lydia’s heart to believe, then she was baptised. The Philippian jailer — the Gospel was preached, the word received and baptism ensued.” **
…
Yes, I had no disagreements whatsoever with the Lutheran view of adult baptism.
…
** “But let me ask this - we are so fond of saying that salvation is by God’s grace alone through faith alone and that that very faith is a gift given to us by God Himself through the proclamation of the word - why is it that an infant cannot receive it in the same way? Why is it that through that same proclamation of the gospel, at the time of baptism, that God cannot give that baby the same ‘free gift’ faith (just as He does an adult) to receive salvation - unless you are going to say that there IS something that the person must do.” **
You know that isn’t a good argument. 
The pastor used that one on me too! He even smiled when he tried to use it, then said, “Sorry.” 
…
Not at all. Salvation is never by works. The reason babies cannot receive faith to receive the Gospel is because they lack maturity to understand it, and therefore, to believe. Let me ask you: Why do Lutherans believe infants can receive faith? This is a question I asked the pastor but he didn’t really address. He made it known to me that he is against Calvinist teaching, but it seems to me the view you and he are espousing leans heavily into the Calvinist camp. “God regenerates first, then saves/gives faith.” I want to learn, so please correct me if I have it wrong.
….
** “Look at it this way, we don’t distinguish between infant and adult - Lutherans baptize sinners in order to fulfill the great commission - after all baptism does come before teaching in the process of making disciples - at least in those verses.” **
…
MLD.
…
** “And when it comes to teaching, think of it this way - have you ever been challenged to write a 47 page response to any other pastor. I think the man did his job.” **
…
Oh, absolutely. He was a very kind, very smart, very good man — truly a shepherd called by God. I think the Lutheran Church is one of the finest denominations there is. They teach their people well — look at you. As Michael often says, you and the other Lutheran apologists on this blog bring so much to the table! Concord would be proud.
Knowing Christ is a constant relationship in the Holy Spirit. Not only do I not have to work for my salvation, my relationship with him is not a job either.
God a neglectful parent? That is simply not the case in any way. However it is true that many believers have a kind of a Deistic spirituality.
Let me just suggest that one no more has to work at being a child of God than we have to work to become a child of God. Am I suggesting that there is no striving or effort? NO but I am saying when you are tired …just rest.
Michael, if I were you I would not try to practice any spiritual disciplines that require the energy you so plainly lack. Just BE. You are a child of God just rest in him, do not try to figure out what is wrong, his grace that saved you is keeping you just now. You need only receive his love which requires no effort.
Christian spirituality is just life in the Holy Spirit. Nothing more or less. His life is in me, his love rests upon me. Michael just be a son. Just keep breathing in and out that is all the effort you need right now. You know enough and you have enough in you to keep you during this time. Obviously you are able to tell the story, to recount the goodness of God.
Further, Michael, receive the sacrament from the hand of others… let them speak over you, bless you, pray for you. DO NOTHING that requires effort. The gift that God has given us is memory, not the recalling of forgotten things but the remembrance of things that are simply true. Receiving the sacrament in the remembrance of Christ means bringing forward to the forefront of our mind that which is always in our mind….Christ gave himself up for us.
I could say more but this is enough… Remember being a Christian just requires being.
m*b,
obviously John the B was able to respond to spiritual things while he was still in the womb and there is no reason to believe that all infants cannot respond in the same manner. Just because we don’t understand it does not make it any less true. My biggest problem with the Calvinist (since you brought them up) is that they pit human reason against the scriptures.
We are not Calvinists and don’t believe that God regenerates before faith - we believe that he delivers saving faith to us through several means (the written word, the spoken word, water, bread and wine.)
Here is the thing about baptism and it is the reason that we will never resolve it. We come at the subject from 2 completely different perspectives. I believe that baptism is God’s work - in fact I believe that God does all of the work in baptism. We are only delivered up for baptism. Your perspective is that baptism is man’s work - that it is man alone working in obedience to God’s word.
As long a the real divide is there, we won’t agree - but that’s OK.
I am passing by on my way to calling it a day and I can’t resist commenting that MLD’s bumper sticker comparison - brings up a wealth of humorous mental pictures O.T. & N.T. - it might even have gotten a smile out of old Paul.
BD- your 6;53 beautiful!
It occurs to me that there is complete agreement on God doing all the work when we speak of ‘baptism.’ And the parting occurs as to which baptism that is…
I am content to give sincere respect to the reverent and mystical interpretation of the water baptism as I know it is a deeply held belief and comes from true scholars.
That said, the view that I’ve come to is not one that stems from contrariness or a desire for new revelation. And nothing would be gained here by airing it.
I apologize for interjecting what has been a foolish worrying of the doctrine.
The wind is blowing and woke me up, but, then, maybe God did
London, I thot so too. Hope that the passing of your friend’s dad carries more joy than sorrow tonight. Now back to bed for me…
God keep
Paul had to defend his suffering. At least it seems that way to me now. He must have felt compelled to answer the unasked question of How Could this Happen to one who is a Faithful Servant of the King of the universe. How can misfortune keep pounding on Paul if he is what he claimed to be? How can everything seem to go wrong when he set his course by Heaven’s compass… A Servant of God?
How can we fall into such low doubts? I ask how can we not? When one keeps standing up, because he is under orders to do so, and get knocked down every time he stands. How can we not fall into despair and doubts.
But as it has been pointed out, it is by Grace and by Grace alone, else we all perish. Non can make it, no not one. None can find the strength to hang on when the force of a hurricane blows and beats them to shreds until they finally cannot hang on any longer and they loose their grip and cry and ????… No it must be Saved by Grace, He alone will catch us and save us from the tempest or we will none of us be saved at all.
Madison,
You said,” The reason babies cannot receive faith to receive the Gospel is because they lack maturity to understand it, and therefore, to believe.”
This would make ‘understanding’ or comprehension the one work necessary to be granted faith and be saved. If faith is a gift of God, He can grant it through His Word to whomever He wishes. To say that infants, or the mentally disabled are incapable of faith is to say God is unable to grant His gifts or communicate to whomever He wishes.
In the OT, God commands a fish to swallow Jonah, and a vine to grow and give him shade. In Genesis, the Lord declares He will hold any animal that kills a Human morally guilty before Him. There seems to be a lot going on between God and His creation that we have very little insight into. He is able to communicate with His creation on any level whenever He wills it. To say He can grant faith to our infant children is not a far reach.
A request if even that. It looks like we may get gutted because of budget cuts. I understand that has little meaning, the bottom line should always drive policy. I dont really know what to do, the effect om me will be a blip, I will get another job and it will pay more, something I wish I would have done years ago. But for those I work with, it will be devastating. Some have come here for 20 years. They really have no place to go. I also understand this is emotionalism, thus cant have any meaning what so ever, but it still does to me, I count that a personal failing on my part.
You know in all my life I have wanted to just serve, most of my Christian brothers and sisters basically did not believe this about me, Somewhere buried deep in my dark dirty little soul, if I even have one, was the workings of Satan. I always saw that as a bit of a head trip, effective which justifies its use but still a head trip. The funny thing about the Christian faith as I have understood it, is you cant win, saved unsaved it is irrelevant, winning is not an option. Personally I have never wanted to win, a personal, moral, and spiritual failing on my part, but I just wanted to serve, which is also a moral failing on my part.
An honest pov I dont get it, I never have, I really do not.
Good Morning Michael and All
Haven’t been by much lately–I started full time work two weeks ago but what a breath of fresh air to stop in and find a reminder that Jesus and His finished work is all we need. In the midst of my exhaustion, I find that so very comforting.
Proverbs 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe.
Dread,
I printed that out…and will carry it.
Thank you.
Jessica:
“I’m thankful that I get to go to heaven, but that thankfulness does not ameliorate the constant and nearly overwhelming sorrow that God does not care about me on any more than the most basic level.”
I am more than deeply sad you both say and think this.
At times I find great joy living out the results of my father (Gen 3:17-19) while at other times I feel great sorrow. I just know than in all of it my Redeemer lives and is the cleft where I can see God from.
Some days.
DMW,
>>Paul had to defend his suffering
That is a primary theme in the book of 2 Cor.
Did we protesters make an error when we removed the figure of the man from our crosses? When Jesus bore our sorrows and griefs, did He remove them or enter into them? He removed our condemnation, yes. But did He remove sorrow and grief and tribulation? Paul said that it’s miserable if in this life only we, Believers, have hope
Patrick Kyle,
Thanks for your comments. Where does repentance come into play, then? An infant can’t repent. I don’t believe repentance is a “work.” I believe salvation is a two-sided coin — both necessary. In order to be saved, a person must repent of their sins and put their faith in Christ. It is a turning *from* sin and a turning *to* Christ in faith. So, faith is not the only component in view here.
MLD,
I think you hit the nail on the head — our perspectives are just too far apart. Thank you for the Lutheran explanations.
MLD,
One more thing — it was always intriguing to me when the pastor would bless the elements and then instruct the church that there is “special grace and special strength” about to be imparted to us as we drink the wine and eat the bread. This wasn’t an area the pastor and I got into — on what Scriptures is that based? I’d like to believe whenever I take communion that I am receving “special grace and special strength,” but would like to “see it in the Bible to believe it” - if you know what I mean.
Thanks.
Brian said —
** “You know in all my life I have wanted to just serve, most of my Christian brothers and sisters basically did not believe this about me, Somewhere buried deep in my dark dirty little soul, if I even have one, was the workings of Satan. I always saw that as a bit of a head trip, effective which justifies its use but still a head trip. The funny thing about the Christian faith as I have understood it, is you cant win, saved unsaved it is irrelevant…” **
…
Brian,
I don’t know your background or anything, but what you wrote concerned me. Who is telling you you can’t serve in a church and that you have a “dark and dirty soul”? Who needs that kind of warped church, Brian? Find another healthy church that majors on kindness and who will recognize you as a believer in Christ and will let you have the blessing of serving. You don’t need those twerps, Brian. Staying in a church like that will make you spiritually sick and spiritually depressed, which, judging by your words, you already are.
I will pray about your job situation, too. God bless.
m*b,
If I may jump into your comment to Patrick Kyle for a minute, and then he can answer for himself as he is a much brighter bulb than me.
You have a funny way of addressing this. You are requiring that children come to Christ in the manner we see laid out for adults, when Jesus commanded just the opposite - Jesus told the people (adults) to come to him as these children do.
Actually, this makes great sense to our point “Matthew 19:13-14
Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
And if you look at Strong’s he even specifies that the verse is referring to infants;
paidion, pahee-dee’-on; neuter diminative of Greek 3816 (pais); a childling (of either sex), i.e. (proprely) an infant, or (by extension) a half-grown boy or girl; figurative an immature Christian :- (little, young) child, damsel.
And as I stated last evening; “obviously John the B was able to respond to spiritual things while he was still in the womb and there is no reason to believe that all infants cannot respond in the same manner. Just because we don’t understand it does not make it any less true.”
We have no reason to believe that infants cannot respond to God’s grace in the exact manner He requires them to.
MLD,
Again it appears we are interpreting passages in very different ways. Matthew 19:13-14 isn’t referencing infant baptism. There are many applications which can be lifted from that passage, but infant baptism just isn’t there. One of the basic applications of Matthew 19:13-14 is Christ putting everyone on notice that just as children are known for their childlike, trusting faith in their parents, so also that is the kind of trusting faith God requires for us to come to Christ — “the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these.” This is a truth Christ underscored most definitively in Mark 10:15 as well, the parallel passage to Matthew 19:13-14. We must enter the Kingdom with a simple and childlike reliance on Christ, just as a child unwaveringly trusts his mom and dad.
Jesus is clearly promoting the practice of blessing little children/infants, but nowhere in that passage does it indicate He is baptizing them. (Of course Jesus Himself didn’t baptize anyone, His disciples did — but even His disciples didn’t step forward to baptize those children Jesus just blessed.)
m*b,
I didn’t say anything in the passage referenced infant baptism - so I don’t know where you got that.
My point was that Jesus accepted the children for no other reason than they were brought to him (as an infant is in baptism). The child had no volition, they were brought by their parents and prayed for and accepted by Jesus - the whole conversion process and experience was done by God.
My whole point was that you seemed to set the standard for children being the same as adults (your point to Patrick). I was just pointing out that Jesus’ point of view was different from yours.
You make my point - “We must enter the Kingdom with a simple and childlike reliance on Christ, just as a child unwaveringly trusts his mom and dad.” As I pointed out, these were infants according to Strong’s.
m*b,
To be clear - I object to your objection that the infant cannot make a clear choice to repent and accept. Jesus makes no such demand on these children.
Jesus made no such demand on these children (to repent and believe), because Jesus wasn’t giving them salvation — He was merely blessing them.
m*b,
You are reading past the point - Go back to your statement to Patrick. You gave your objection to infants being saved because they could not make a volitional choice to repent and choose for Christ.
Forget that ‘act’ of baptism for a minute, because it seems to cloud you - in the Matthew passage, Jesus commends the ‘faith’ of those brought to him - he even offers up the kingdom to people who have faith like theirs.
What I am trying to get across to you is that even though we cannot see it, and perhaps we cannot understand how it could happen, these infants are capable of having saving faith given to them and indeed do have it - if they didn’t, what is Jesus saying?
You never did respond to the ‘faith’ response that John the B was capable of having.
Hello Mr Pheonix preacher. I wanted to talk to you. Tonight I went to a funeral at a calvery chappel church. I’ve never been in one and never care to attent for other reasons. The funeral was horrible for a young man that was killed. The family was suffering and it was a part of hell I didn’t know even existed. Well the pastor was so cold and insensative to the core. The family lost their son tragically. The Calvary Chappel pastor made the service about his agenda and then asked the greiving family to not curse or drink out of respect for the church. The only curse words were words written in good bye letters and no one brought “bottle” It was very insensative and what a turn off. Thanks for writing and giving me a clue.
Madison,
Repentance is a fruit of faith. You can’t repent unless you already believe God and His Word. Before people ‘walk the aisle,’ ‘pray the prayer,’ answer the altar call, or whatever, God has already granted them faith through His Word or they wouldn’t be doing whatever it is people think they need to do to “get saved.”
A couple points here.
The way you are using the word ‘repentance’ in your argument makes it a work that we must do -quid pro quo- to receive salvation. We disagree on what part repentance plays in what the Reformed call the Ordo Salutis (sp?) the ‘order of salvation.’
Furthermore, you make the blanket statement that infants cannot repent. How do you know? What Scripture tells us this? John the Baptist leapt for joy in the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb. David in Psalm 22:9 says”
“Yet you brought me out of the womb;you made me trust in you even at my mother’s breast.” Seems that God’s Spirit working through His word can reach even infants.
Patrick and MLD,
What occured with John the Baptist is a sticky point, I allow. That’s why I haven’t answered your question - I don’t know what to do with that — it is the one point the Lutheran pastor kept bringing up that I had no explanation for, other than perhaps it was a mystical occurance for the purpose of calling John as the forerunner for Christ. That was certainly a special circumstance after all, and probably not a prototype for all infants.
As for the order of salvation, I knew that was a bone of contention whch is why in my post I said I didn’t want to go there; it’s no use because I know we disagree on that. It’s just clouding the issue. The fact is, some come to Christ and don’t repent for some time until the realization occurs. Still others go to church or hear a Gospel presentation from you or I, hear a strong proclamation of the Law, followed by the Gospel, and they are moved to sorrow over their sin, they repent, and come to Christ in faith to receive Him. I’m not willing to say it *always* happens in one way or the other. I’ve seen what appears to be both forms in different conversion instances. I’ve seen people become completely overwhelmed with their sin and what appeared to be hard core repentance, followed by trusting in the work of Christ. I’ve seen it the other way, too — where faith is present first and repentance follows later.
My basic issue with infants being granted faith in utero or while infants is that, on the face of it, it flies against the overall testimony of Scripture. Over and over we see the gospel being preached and then belief occuring. The order is repetitive: preach the gospel, then faith is created in a person’s heart (or not — depending on whether the person has ears to hear).
Also, since both baptism and the Lord’s Supper are ordinances (or sacraments) and are both a sign and a seal — why would the Lord’s Supper/Communion be “closed table” but baptism isn’t? That doesn’t make sense. Only believers may take Communion yet churches wil baptize any baby offered by the parents, whether the parents are believers or not. I know for a fact that in many, many churches you can present your baby to be baptized even if the mom and dad never attend the church and have no intention of bringing the baby up in the faith. That doesn’t make sense. Also, it is a well known fact (just look at the statistics!) that many thousands of baptized babies do NOT go on to show any evidence of adhering to the faith of the Church and likely end up in hell. How is that to be explained? God begins a good work of implanting faith into an infant’s heart and yet that same baby grows up and perishes in hell? Sounds like God who was faithful to begin a good work wasn’t faithful to complete it.
Luther said that infant baptism “works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare” (Luther’s Small Catechism). I don’t mean to be testy at all — but from a missions standpoint, what a great idea for getting the nations saved.
Let’s go baptise all the babies! I mean, why do all these expenditures for worldwide missions when we can just invest in some holy water and sprinkle all the babies instead? It’s alot easier and a whole lot cheaper. 
OK, on a more serious note: It all comes down to this, for me. Peter said in Acts 2:38 — “Repent and be baptized.” That is the “formula” (if you will) that we see repeated — 1) repent and be baptized, or 2) instances of the gospel being taught and then baptism takes place. Baptism in the NT is credobaptism, or believer’s baptism. And if infant baptism had such “power” as to create faith in a child’s heart, then that is a HUGE and important detail, so why didn’t the apostles or Jesus speak of it more? They never underscored that explicitly to their converts — Jesus never said, “Go home and tell what the Lord has done, and if you have any babies in your house, hurry and get them baptized.”
We are seeing the NT baptismal instances in totally different lenses, which is OK and it’s cetainly not a soteriological issue at all, but nevertheless is fascinating to discuss. I understand you believe faith can be created in an infant’s heart — I don’t believe that, I don’t believe scripture teaches this happens on a regular basis (with the exception being someone like John the Baptist). I believe repentance and faith stem from hearing the word of God, and the order of faith and repentance isn’t a concern to me. Both occur in true salvation.
To be clear:
I’m not saying the practice of bringing one’s children to the Lord such as dedication isn’t important. At our church, both of my children were dedicated to the Lord. Both of my children came to saving faith there. Both of my children were baptized there (well, not physically there, but offsite). I came to faith there and was baptized there also. (Which is kind of nice that all of our “spiritual milestones” occured all in one place.) So I am not diminishing the practice of delivering a child up to the Lord — rather, just what form that takes.
I was also baptized as a baby in the Catholic Church. That baptism bore no fruit at all in my life until about 18-19 years later when I heard the gospel and received Christ. The infant baptism had *no* effect on me at all (if you knew me as a teenager you’d agree!). What Luther said would happen in my baptism didn’t happen. (And the Lutheran pastor said Catholic baptisms are just as effective as Lutheran baptisms.) It was only after hearing the gospel that faith was created in my heart. And that, I believe, is the correct prototype for baptism.
Hi m*b,
1.) “What occured with John the Baptist is a sticky point, I allow…That was certainly a special circumstance after all, and probably not a prototype for all infants.”
Are you sure? You seem to go off of what your mind tells you verses what the Bible says. God has always interacted with infants - look at Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
And what do you do with this one? Psalm 22:9 “Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother’s breast”
When did David have trust in God? And who was the mover of the verbs in this passage? Did David need to make a decision or as the passage says “you made me trust in you.” Hmmm, another infant believer.
2.) “The order is repetitive: preach the gospel, then faith is created in a person’s heart” - why would this exclude infants? Baptism is the mixture of plain water and the preached word… and through that, voila! faith is created in the infant. I don’t know what you may think faith is, but our claim is that faith is that which is able to grasp onto God’s free grace. I know many evangelicals think that it is something that we ‘muster up’ within us to make us move towards God - but that is not our view nor is it the view from the Bible.
3.) “Also, it is a well known fact (just look at the statistics!) that many thousands of baptized babies do NOT go on to show any evidence of adhering to the faith of the Church and likely end up in hell.”
Have you ever seen the statistics from a Billy Graham Crusade? Something like only 5% are still Christians 5 yrs after going forward - sounds like an immediate reason to end all mass evangelism as it seems to be a sure way to send 95% of attendees to hell. We all admit that the narrow road leads to a narrow gate. Lutherans do believe that a person can walk away from their faith.
4.) “They never underscored that explicitly to their converts — Jesus never said, “Go home and tell what the Lord has done, and if you have any babies in your house, hurry and get them baptized.”
Now watch it - a couple of times in the NT we read that “they and their WHOLE household were baptized.” We have no reason to believe that those households did not include small children. I can also counter your point by saying that none of the apostles said, “btw, don’t bother baptizing the kids - it won’t do any good.” Jesus said to go out and baptize all nations. Well by golly, infants and children are among all nations.
5.) “And if infant baptism had such “power” as to create faith in a child’s heart,” again this is a mistaken view - baptism does not create faith. The word of God preached during the baptism is what creates the faith and is applied through the water.
6.) About your baptism - you don’t know that it didn’t produce fruit. Here you are today, and perhaps God honored your Catholic baptism by continually giving you opportunities to hear the gospel EVEN though you spent you teen years spitting in His face - think about it.
Good conversation
madison*bella kindly asked who taught me about my “dirty little soul”. That was a constant in my Christian experience, outside of “regeneration” every single thing a human does has some type of twisted motive that is in some way actively suppressing the Knowledge of God I E Romans. Sense we are all born, no actually conceived totally corrupted and spiritual dead and cant know God apart from God’s intervention it seems to follow that every act, every tear, every hope, every act of kindness outside the “faith” is an act of rebellion and under the complete condemnation of God.
Personally I think beauty is of God, as is acts of kindness, grace etc. I have had a hard time believing that the utter vast majority of humanity was created with the express purpose of being vessels of wrath. I dont want to suppress the will of God nor do I want to be a vessel of wrath.
brokenbow, sorry for your loss. I’ll be praying for you and the young mans family.
Brian said –
** “I have had a hard time believing that the utter vast majority of humanity was created with the express purpose of being vessels of wrath.” **
…
Hi Brian,
Reprobation is always a sticky subject. It’s common for people to have troubling questions about it. James Montgomery Boice sums it up well when he wrote:
…
“[We should not assume] that God creates some people only to damn them, to send them to hell, and that they are passive in the matter. But that is not what Paul has been saying [in Romans 9]. Reprobation means “passing by” or “choosing not to save.” And those whom God passes by or chooses not to save are not innocent persons but are sinners in rebellion against Him. God does not condemn innocent people. He condemns sinners only. But God does have the right to save or not save sinners, as He chooses.”
– James Montgomery Boice, “Romans, Volume 3: God and History”
…
Also, Brian, though reprobation is taught in Scripture, it is not the ugly caricature of God that some harsher theologians of the past (who shall remain nameless
) have portrayed. Look, God didn’t have to save anyone, right? Some of the angels fell during the satanic rebellion against God — God offered no redemption plan for them. That He chooses to save sinners is a massive example of mercy in the highest degree. God elects some to salvation, it is true; and God passes over others, is also true — but God also clearly gives the salvation call to ALL MEN (and women) and ANYONE who calls on the name of the Lord WILL be saved. Christ came to save sinners, and we all fall under that category. The gospel is to be preached to all mankind and anyone who wants to come to Christ, He will never reject nor turn away.
Admittedly there is a tension there, Brian, and I can’t explain it — it is a mystery that one day will make sense (in heaven). God calls all, the offer of salvation is open to all — yet God also elects some, and conversely, passes over others. God is utterly just and merciful in all His dealings, and no one can accuse Him of wrongdoing.
MLD,
So do you think that when I was baptized in 1973 as a baby, at that moment when the priest sprinkled the water I was given saving faith, forgiven of my sins, and delivered from death and the devil? Because that’s what the Lutheran pastor told me. And that 19 years later was when I was actually “confirmed” in the faith? I mean, how do you explain it? That is one whale of a story!!
I don’t think anything happened in 1973 except my parents wanted me raised as a good Catholic girl, just as my mother was and her mother was, and on and on down the line.
madison*bella
I had a long diatribe but deleted it, thank you for your kind response I will pray about what you have said, I do hope you and yours have a nice Thanks Giving.
Brokenbow, skimming the thread this am I see your post from Saturday. This is a good place to come and talk about such things. Praying for God’s comfort to you and those who are grieving now.
Madison,
I want to reply to your comments as we are having a great conversation on the topic, however I am slammed with work and some other things for the next day or so. I will reply when I get through what I need to do, so please check back in a day or so.
m*b,
“So do you think that when I was baptized in 1973 as a baby, at that moment when the priest sprinkled the water I was given saving faith, forgiven of my sins, and delivered from death and the devil?”
Yes, kinda
I believe that you were given saving faith. I actually believe that your sins were forgiven at the cross and I do believe that you were delivered from death and the devil.
However, if at some time you chose to renounce that faith and walk away (as you described of your teen years, then yes you could do that also. But the whole time, Jesus kept offering you the gospel, whether you knew it or not - he continued His call on your life. And guess what? It worked again.
Here is an article you can read - you have probably heard it all before, but I thought that it was good since it was delivered to a Texas-New Mexico Pastoral-Delegate Conference in 1973 (the year of your baptism.
http://www.wlsessays.net/files/VogtInfant.pdf
MLD,
I can’t believe you’re serious! That I was saved in 1973 as an infant and then renounced Christ in my teen years — MLD, I didn’t even know the first thing about Christ really, in my teen years, so how can you renounce someone you don’t even know about?
If all babies baptized by the Catholic Chrch and the Lutheran Church, etc are saved — then I can only guess the road to Heaven isn’t so narrow after all. There’s ALOT of babies baptized every day by RCC priests.
I will read the article you posted– thanks for the link!
Patrick,
I look forward to hearing more — thank you.
m*b,
1.) “If all babies baptized by the Catholic Chrch and the Lutheran Church, etc are saved — then I can only guess the road to Heaven isn’t so narrow after all. There’s ALOT of babies baptized every day by RCC priests.”
And if all of those babies died while they were still infants, what is your take on their eternal fate?
All of the churches that baptize babies teach that the children learn the faith and accept it as their own as they grow (thru catechism & confirmation) - not all do and some reject the faith that was given to them.
2.) “I can’t believe you’re serious! That I was saved in 1973 as an infant…” I don’t know what age has to do with it. The fact that you say “saved” means that it was something done by another - you were ’saved’ by Jesus, you didn’t get yourself saved. I think that deep down you want to cling to the thought that you somehow had control in your salvation, that you stepped up to be counted and don’t realize that what you actually did was come back to Christ - back to where He had you in 1973.
At least that’ my thought.