It's going to be a long day.
Today I will be offline for a while getting my legal and prayerful ducks in a row over a story that we may be putting up on this blog.
The story is already online to a degree at this forum.
There was a day when I wouldn't have thought twice about getting involved in such a story…but things have changed.
I now understand the price that comes with being an advocate and most of the time it's more than I can afford in every way.
There is also the reality that no matter the offense…people don't care.
All of the people we have covered in some kind of scandal are now prospering despite all those files to your left.
Today I'm gathering statements, gathering counsel, checking insurance and law, and gathering my strength to make a good decision.
I am also imploring the pastor in question to answer the allegations and meet with his accusers…with no success thus far.
I covet your prayers for wisdom and courage.
Praying, Michael. Praying especially that God would do a tremendous work here and we would see repentance and forgiveness and restoration work in a way that shouts to the world that the Gospel is true…
May God humble those who need to be humbled, give courage and boldness to those who need to speak and may all involved be sensitive to the leading of His Spirit.
Would any of the SoCal guys here be able to help out? If the pastor in question is the Sr. Pastor at the church above, I’ve met him a handful of times, and he’s always seemed like a great guy to me. I certainly don’t know him well, but I would think some others in the PP community might.
Praying for all concerned.
Tim,
Getting others involved puts them in sane position that I’m in….you invite a war into your life…for how much good?
This is hard stuff…
I have a parent-teacher conference this morning…back in a while.
Something for you to consider as you pray about this Michael–often times God does not use us as we expect to be used. You took on some difficult situations in the past trying to ‘right some wrongs.’ Instead, God used you to provide an online home for hurting people to meet each other and minister to each other. And we have all been blessed by the friendships that have been formed here between brothers and sisters who would never have crossed the lines of denominations in any other way. This is a very unique community–and God knew all along how He would use those difficult and frustrating circumstances to create this special place.
So, I am praying that God will give you discernment to see what your steps should or shouldn’t be in this situation. But bear in mind that His goal for your involvement might be very different from what you think it is. His ways are higher than ours…
praying
Michael,
Make sure you KNOW beyond a show of a doubt this is what God wants you to do. Consider the cost because it WILL cost you. IT’S NOT WORTH IT. Hasn’t your health suffered enough? There isn’t anyone in “danger” — even *if* the allegations are true, the abuse is LONG OVER (*not* ongoing) — and is the man really going to beat up on his flock too? Very doubtful. God is faithful to lead His people to the fellowship that is healthiest for them. These are adults we’re talking about. You can’t be everyone’s savior. Don’t get involved in a situation that isn’t your business. If laws have been broken, that’s what the police are for. Calvary Chapel policies their own (for better or for worse, it’s their organization, and they reserve the right to handle their own messes), and if this man has done wrong, let Calvary deal with their own pastors!! PLEASE!!!!!! Remember what happened before?? Don’t screw with these men.
Consider this: Even if the story is true, and even if you do an expose, will things really change? As much as you want to believe otherwise, you know in your heart that people will still attend his church. No one will really “listen” even if the allegations are true. And honestly, do *you* really know whether they’re true or not? The pastor hasn’t answered you, and you can’t assume his silence means the other story is true. No one knows the whole picture.
But I can tell you this: This pastor will continue to prosper and still come out on top. You on the other hand will be wearier than ever, sicker than ever, more broken than ever, and who knows what else could happen. Please, leave these men alone!! For your own sake!
I know I’m talking to the wind, you didn’t take my advice the last time around, and I don’t expect you will this time either. I know you think you owe it to the injured to be their voice — but I ask you, what do you think will be accomplished? And is it worth the price you will surely pay? No one will suffer injury except you. Certainly not the pastor at the center of it all. Think about that.
Holly…this may be between you and Michael, and he needs to talk with you. I would only mention that when Michael has taken a stand, even if there has not been the change we have all hoped for, there have been many who have been changed because they knew they had a sanctuary and a place to come and speak.
We’ve all spoken caution to Michael, and I’m confident he listens. I also think that we can’t necessarily base our reason for speaking out solely on what the outcome could be. Sometimes we just need to be willing to give people a voice. This place has been relatively quiet for awhile in the sense of attracting large numbers of wounded, but we’ve seen a lot. And I think we’ve seen a lot find some hope and whether they stayed or left their situation, they at least were able to change perspective.
I don’t know what the decision will be or how involved PP will be, although I know we will be praying fervently for this situation. It does sound like there are accusations beyond the abuse of the sons; there are issues of counseling and leadership that need to be addressed.
Continuing to pray for wisdom…just wanted to mention that perspective, that sometimes the goal is not completely the overthrow or to bring some great cost to the pastor…the goal is to minister to those who are caught in the mess. Just a thought.
It was because of this story that I decided to take a hiatus from the PP and will return to that status as soon as I say what I’m going to say.
If it were a matter a parent abusing children under the age of 18, call the cops and keep calling the cops until the matter is rectified.
If it’s a matter of adult children, with children of their own, revisiting past wrongs- let it go. It’s none of our business.
If it’s a matter of a pastor being arrogant and emotionally abusive to his congregation, he would be one of thousands who behave in this manner.
So…. order of authority in this case:
1. Ongoing child abuse? Call the cops.
2. Bitter grown children? Family matter.
3. Abusive pastor? Congregational matter (or in religious organizations with a better system of government- alert the bishop.)
PP is not on that list.
But you are all free to remember these troubled people in your prayers.
(PS- I don’t know if the pastor in question is guilty of any of this things.)
Over and out.
And I will add Michael, that considering your recent bouts of doubt and despair this is the LAST thing you need to be doing.
Listen to Holly.
Having left the CCMovement to be a freelance follower of Jesus I can offer this perspective:
We who identify with Jesus are family, CC, Baptist, Vineyard, RCC, whatever denomination or non-denomination, as long as we name Jesus as the center of our identity and existence then everything else is about who you spend your time with and who helps you soar with eagles’ wings. If someone is being a praise smasher then just move on to another part of the party (by the way, this works at Thanksgiving dinners)
There are some of Jesus’ followers who want to bring reform to the CCMovement, and if you are one of those, by all means, you need to understand what you are trying to do and ask if you want to pay the price. The CCMovement has it’s own distinctives, actually published in a book, and unless Chuck Sr and those at CCCM want to make a change it’s gonna remain the way it is. The simple choice has been to change the name of your church or go find another church, but never forget, every group and gathering will have it’s unique distinctives (and freedom means they are truly entitled to have their own culture). From reading the Visalia blog Michael posted the link to it’s almost like they’re channeling Romaine from back in his heyday. He was hardly user friendly and I can think of a lot of other people to emulate, but for whatever reason the culture at the Visalia CC feels the need to set these hard boundaries. So, it’s simple, you want to hang out there, you get what they dish out there. Don’t like it? Move on or start your own group of freelancers.
Maybe its a fear thing, like my wife and I used to believe, that we could not consider going anywhere that didn’t have a CC. That was a fearful season in our lives. Looking back those decades ago we’ve since experienced the presence and love of Jesus outside of our self imposed limitations and i think it’s the place of each of us who Michael shares this struggle with to encourage freedom and confidence that Jesus is far greater than our labels, movements, denominations and groups. Encourage THAT idea and you’ll catch heat, but it’s a good heat and it sets people free.
Michael, whatever you do, you’re loved and we’ll be praying for you to help set the captives free so they can see Jesus active and doing His thing all over Visalia and the Central Valley. There are precious people who need to know Jesus beyond their cultural limitations. Good for you that you are opening the barn door and letting in the fresh air.
( | o )=====:::
Now, everybody, go play your favorite song and dance a little!
Thank you, Xenia — I agree with every single word you wrote.
And I miss you.
Sarah,
I understand what you’re saying, but I want what’s best for Michael. This will do him in physically/emotionally. And I don’t want that. He’s got *enough* on his plate.
If those adult children have bitterness or issues regarding what happened (if the story is true), then there are mental health psychologists who will very successfully deal with their issues on a one-on-one basis. And there is no shame in utilizing one. They can do wonders with past abuse issues — to where it never really affects you in the present any more at all.
As Xenia said, if there are issues with this guy’s leadership or domineering problems or whatever, that’s just so common — it’s a dime a dozen. Churches run by domineering senior pastors are sometimes thought to be “abusive” due to that type of governing. People in those churches just have to go with the flow and accept that that’s the type of church they chose to go. Key word: “CHOSE.” No one forces a person to stay. We have freedom of churches in this country.
Grendal…I think that’s a really good point, and another thing this blog has provided. Some have come here who have never known “church” outside of CC. They have been exposed to a variety of denominations and have had an ability to interact in a place of safety that may give them freedom to experience something different of the Church. I’m not saying everyone needs to leave CC…I’m saying that even among the CC pastors there is a lot of variety here. And that is a good thing.
The only other thing I wanted to say is to amen what His Kid said. It may very well be that every leader that has been mentioned here, and issue that has been exposed, has not been recitified in a way we would think correct. That does not mean that Michael did not follow God’s leading, or that God’s work wasn’t done…there are many who have been ministered to through this work. I truly believe God’s hand has been on this place. So, don’t be discouraged Michael by those standards…think of the prayers that have been offered here, the people who have been spiritually and physically helped. Those who have moved from being bitter (NANCY?!) to being hopeful. Those who have been broken and have some hope…those are great fruits.
With this situation, I trust you to hear God’s leading as well. Don’t be a martyr just to be a martyr, but listen well to Him. I hope I don’t sound like I’m pushing you in a direction…genuinely, trusting that God will make this clear to you.
On a lighter note, I just looked at CC Visalia’s web page - they have a traditional service and a contemporary service. In light of CC history, do all the long haired burned out old hippies go to the traditional service and then the gen Xers, Yers etc go to the contemporary service? Just a funny thought.
By providing a safe place for those who are struggling with the Moses Model’s downside there will be a resultant dialog within the current CCMovement’s leaders who are paying attention and care about people more than ideology.
Those who have been abused will start talking about their struggles, and that has a liberating effect in itself
the more openness, the better
Ok, this wasn’t the smartest thing I’ve ever done.
Transparency is indeed a two edged sword at times.
My inclination at this point is to set up a special City of Refuge article where those who wish to can tell their stories and interact with those of us who have been down these roads before.
My own limitations prevent me from doing the kind of full out campaign we’ve done before, but that doesn’t mean that these folks don’t deserve to be heard.
The reality that these kind of churches are a “dime a dozen” means that we need to talk about this even more, not stop talking about it at all.
It ain’t about me…it’s about the church and the Body of Christ…and that’s all our business.
This will be a tough decision for you Michael. There have been good points made from both sides.
Holly,
My heart goes out to you. You are aware in a deeper way than any of us, what a toll this kind of thing takes on Michael. I will be praying for all of Michael’s close friends and family knowing that they will feel Michael’s pains right along with him.
For the rest of us here at PP, though, I would encourage us to remember that Michael has asked for our prayers. I know we all have opinions about the rights and wrongs about taking this on. But the bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what we think. God has a plan and it either includes Michael or it doesn’t. Michael needs desperately to hear God’s voice on this so he can yield to the leading of the Holy Spirit. He needs to be in the center of God’s will on this, and he knows it. So let us join together and pray that Michael will hear *God’s* opinion on this loud and clear. That Michael will be immediately obedient to whatever God tells him. That Michael will have a peace that He is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. And that Michael’s friends and family will share that peace.
We are in the midst of a battle, folks. We need to hear the orders of our Commander. What ever He calls us to do, may we march forward and trust that He is in the midst of it with us. Be strong and courageous, Michael. Be strong and courageous, friends.
Let’s pray.
Amen, HK, amen. On that note I’m off for Thanksgiving…blessings on you all.
Xenia,
Based on your list … it seems you believe this place has been out of line all along. Am I wrong in my conclusions?
Nancy, no. The other issues were pubic, this involves the inner workings of a family.
And with that, I am outta here!
Michael,
Praying you have the wisdom to know what to do … if anything … the courage to do it … either way … and the strength to endure until victory. Also … thanking God for the work He has already done through you & this place. Your efforts at great cost to you personally have not gone unnoticed. Rest in Him!
Public.
(blush)
Spiritual abuse happens with such subtleness that you don’t realize it has happened until you are in the thick of it. You know something is not right, but have been conditioned to think it must be you, you have been taught not to question Gods anointed. After all the church is growing, so God must be in it.
I’m just so thankful that I found this place when I did. It helped me to understand that I wasn’t crazy, rebellious, disobedient, ungrateful, or many of the other names I was being called.
Michael, whether or not the Lord calls you into this battle, I will stand in the gap for you, minute by minute if need be.
MLD,
your 10:15am… LOL
yeah, the older folks keep the lights up bright and strum acoustic guitars
The contemporary service is the same, except with tattoos…
…ok, that was simply un-called for and I’m putting myself in a time out,except to say,
Michael,
City of Refuge is a great idea, then post a link to the Visalia blog at the top of this article. I agree with your beloved, you have your hands full. Thinkabboudit, this stuff will never change overnight and it’s up to those who are remaining in an unhealthy relationship with their church to explore God’s freedom. Be the voice that lets people know of a fresh cool stream of water and they will dare to migrate away from the bitter waters to something far more refreshing.
Wishing you grace, wisdom and peace in the difficult decisions required when challenging what looks like an unhealthy situation.
A Calvary Chapel pastor told me that he felt it would be better if I kept some of my critiques of our movement out of public forums. He had some good points, has influenced me to tone down some. I will add that this is a man who I respect and love.
So, let me apologize in advance to my friend…….. I’m going to think out loud here some as I have been thinking about ethics and pastoral care and how they run parallel to each other.
What got me thinking recently was a conference (not CC) that I was made aware of that is centered around dealing with a “me” culture. I may pony up the money and attend. What caught my attention is that I am amazed how easy it is for me to piss people off. I don’t know if it’s me, them, spiritual warfare, endemic to this area, or wide spread through out our culture (the latest episode, a woman who was illegally parked in a handicapped spot)…. . I’m hoping to get some help in this area, because I want to shepherd people, not run them off. My heart in dealing with people is to see them walk with Jesus and be content with what He has done for them. I don’t want to run them off, considering them a “blessed subtraction”. I still grieve when a person or family leaves, even in those rare cases that I was convinced God was removing. I don’t want to control people and conversely, I don’t want them to control me either . I also understand that if people cannot follow the lead of their pastor that they need to determine for themselves whether they should remain at that church.
The message that conveyed from the talking heads within the movement is that people are expendable, that if they become a source of irritation, remove them. Some of these guys always want to talk about their war stories of how they ran that person off, or put another in their place, or how they fire a staffer who wants to begin a new work elsewhere…… It doesn’t edify me at all. There are times that there is no other choice. However, it becomes a S.O.P. that is encouraged ( I’ll refrain from naming names). This translates into poor inter-personal skills, a sense of isolation where the pastor begins to think he is the only one who hears from God (although they would never admit it)… This mindset unfortunately bleeds over into other facets of their lives where the potential for significant damage intensifies. A lack of ethics creates poor interpersonal skills, that creates conflict and solidifies into an ungodly character.
I could not find the article, only the comments so I don’t know what the allegations are. I will say this loud and clear: I know Bob G. very well. He has always been a source of encouragement for me and for others of us in the CC movement. He is highly regarded, dearly loved and I know from first-hand experience with him that he is a very Godly man. Bob deserves the benefit of the doubt.
cent,
Whatever person told you to tone it down about the criticism is perpetuating the problem. Glad you respectfully acted in courage to post your thoughts.
“people are expendable” - that’s a far cry from Jesus’ ethic where he goes out of his way to seek the hurting and lost.
May your tribe increase.
You rock. Period.
fyi,
Based on how the customer service reports are coming in from the field, it think your friend needs to correct his way of serving the common people in his community. he may make the leadership purr but if he’s beating his fellow servants and lording it over them he needs to take better lessons from Jesus.
Cent,
Interesting thoughts … thanks for sharing.
FYI,
I’m sure at this point Michael will check and recheck … give this man the benefit of the doubt so to speak. I encourage you to speak with Bob … Michael has stated he has given him the opportunity to dialog … so far that doesn’t seem to have happened. Maybe you can help in that aspect … that in my view is always a good step … even if it just points out the problem more clearly.
Cent,
I agree with G … toning it down was a big part of what got many of us here in the first place. Please encourage your friend to learn from the past. Too many have been hurt already from the silence.
And yes … “May your tribe increase.
You rock. Period.”
cent, that was one good post.
Michael - I would say that caution would be in order here. Post what you know and let others tell their story. That’s all we can do. The more we make anyone a posterchild for what the CC movemen shouldn’t be, the more the wagons may get circled.
But if the evidence seems overwhelming then apply 1 Tim 5:20.
I sit on the fence leaning toward Holly and Xenia - if the pastor-in-question’s greatest offense is that he beat his children (define ‘beat’) and they are now adult, isn’t it pretty obvious that it is their situation to deal with.
Shame on them/him(?) if he’s trying to dump it on Michael for resolution. That gets pretty close to the guy who goes to work and chronically complains about his wife (we’ve all known them).
Then, again, if just a bullying pastor? Let the folks who’ve been ‘bullied’ come here and name names - graciously. Assuming it’s not a legal situation.
Xenia said it best and Holly pleaded from a heart in submission to the Lord. So both these ladies carry weight. IMO
now, if I don’t get it and innocent people are now in serious danger
well, I just wasted some blog space again… 
Centorian, you would be a pastor after my own heart. Tip-toeing men are the ones that scare me.
But I know people differ in personality and interpretation of the word ‘confrontation.’
Speaking of tip-toeing… I think it is evil and cowardly to “let someone go” or “fire them” and congratulate yourself for taking care of the problem, ***IF*** you did not first confront that person with the situation and let them know exactly where you were coming from face to face. Church or anywhere else… At the very least, I’d question the leader’s qualification…
just sayin - cuz I felt like it
fyi,
what about everyone else in this debacle? Should they not be given the benefit of doubt?? Is this all fabricated and all of it a lie?
godly man….. how many times have I heard that one?…….
-g,
you would understand better if you knew who I was talking about….. but thanks
thanks nancy, 62
Psalm62,
it’s cool to work out your ideas and thoughts here. We all do it and sometimes ask for retractions.
Something you posted made me think of another serious Moses Model failure, that subjective idea that if someone points out a problem or has a different viewpoint then they are “in the flesh” or not “in submission to the lord”. I’m sure we who post here at PP have been so branded by those who love that title of “leader”. You can bet that they have a hard time with our questions (just like the Congress)
Ok, off to class to cause more trouble!
cent,
I think that as long as you are CC and have a dove in your brand you’ll hear those words of caution.
Supporting you in your heartfelt love of each person in your path.
ooops - the request is for prayer - will do
cent, as i said, all I’ve been able to read is the comments. I have read your postings long enough to know you are a Godly man, and a sensible one. The comments I read have almost no credibility. They are wild accusations and come from obviously angry people with an axe to grind. Hardly objective. If there is somewhere I can read allegations that are concise and with substance, I will be happy to speak with Bob directly about them. I said I know Bob and his track record. Those making wild accusations are people I do not know. Bob has earned the benefit of the doubt. The others are just anonymous posters who are making very general statements.
Any of your pastors ever been wrongly accused?
Any of your pastors ever faced their accusers publicly?
One of mine did, humbly, openly, and it was the most shameful airing of false accusations I’ve ever seen or heard about (not a CC, can’t/won’t give the details at this point).
But THAT man of God is (evidently) cut from different cloth than what I’ve seen in others.
It seemed to be a less than fruitful process. And that was for a man willing and humble enough to face his accusers.
I don’t see ANY CC men ever doing this (have ANY CC guys accused, right or wrong, EVER done this historically?).
3 people in my area attending 3 different CCs that I know left me VERY DISTUTBED (3 different CCs) with stories of abuse and the like…some absolutely shocking, deplorable, mind-numbing.
I dropped off our Operation Christmas Child gift at the local CC and did not feel well while there.
Jesus, help us…help all churches, help CC Visalia and all the CCs…help!
Use Michael if You want…
the “godly man” dodge is right up there with “touch not gods’ anointed”
If Luther had not dared to do a lot more to touch God’s so called anointed, like nailing that little blog post of his to the chapel door, we might all be saying Hail Marys.
fyi,
thanks for the grace. cntorian@yahoo.com is you would like.
kirk,
” I don’t see ANY CC men ever doing this (have ANY CC guys accused, right or wrong, EVER done this historically?).”
CC guys face their accusors? I have….. two of those people are now back in our church… and I am happy to have them. I seen almost every CC pastor that I have served under do so…….
FYI,
I have to caution you as you endorse Bob. As Cent has stated … “godly man….. how many times have I heard that one?……. I didn’t realize how over authoritative my once pastor was until he perceived me as a threat to his authority. At that point … and only at that point did it became very clear … yikes. So … despite the fact that waves of people have left the church he pastors over years now … the seats are still full … he still has lots of supporters … including many other pastors. Quote … “—– ——- is well respected within Calvary Chapel”
2 more things:
Psalm 73
And
O.J.
If this man (and others) are guilty of the charges, those are some of the eventualities outside of repentance.
In light of all this, all I can say is THANK GOD that Jesus is coming with fire to cleanse his church.
” I don’t see ANY CC men ever doing this (have ANY CC guys accused, right or wrong, EVER done this historically?).”
-Me
CC guys face their accusors? I have….. two of those people are now back in our church… and I am happy to have them. I seen almost every CC pastor that I have served under do so…….
-Centy
Could you give me any details?
Who set this meeting up? Were you WILLING to go (and did that take awhile)?
Why is YOUR experience so different from EVERY OTHER CC guy (and the people attending corresponding CC) I know?
…Said in love and curiosity, not with an accusing finger pointed…
Centy,
Furthermore, *IF* the things stated are true (of which I have NO IDEA), what would YOU DO if you were this individual?
Please shine the light of God and the grace of God in *your life* on this situation…in the context of a CC.
(MY (non-CC) context wouldn’t be the same)
I have been the first to criticize our movement. It is fraught with problems. I will make no excuses for the over bearing-(and ironically) “Purpose Driven Churches (theirs). But I am a CC pastor and will remain one. It would be good for us to talk specifically of charges of abuse in the ministry rather than make broad statements like “every one in CC”
I don’t know that those broad strokes do any one any favors…that’s all
Michael
Is this CC Visalia thing a fight that is being brought to your door or are you taking this on yourself> If the latter, why would you do that and what would you hope to accomplish? I guess those are two questions to ask yourself
This is the stuff I LOVE about PP…these discussions.
The second coming of Skip brought me here, these discussions have kept me here…
…And amazing people like Sarah, Nomans, etc etc
…”Freedom fighters” like Michael…
Steve,
From what Michael said to me, he was approached by the adult child (ren). He’s been praying ever since.
James T Kirk,
What in the world is “the second coming of Skip?” ???????? That makes him sound like a godhead figure. And you guys talk about pastor worship!!!!!
But seriously, what *is* the “second coming of Skip”????
Nancy, re: your 12:16; Bob doesn’t need my endorsement and that wasn’t what I was doing. He is my friend and I know him well. I am sure your circumstances were real and genuine but the things I read (comments only–still don’t know if there have been specific allegations) are simply not true. There are always people in any church of size that become frustrated and they seem to find one another at the first sign of trouble. I know my opinion means very little but I can vouch for Bob’s integrity and His heart for Jesus. To say someone is a Godly man should not be seen as anything other than a wonderful compliment. I am a little surprised by the tone of the responses to that phrase.
fyi,
Perhaps you can be an agent of reconciliation.
Bob’s adult children are accusing him of physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse.
They have compelling stories that at the very least warrant a hearing from Bob.
I have received and examined their testimonies and have no reason to disbelieve them.
I have asked Bob to respond and he has declined.
Perhaps you as a friend can arrange a meeting between the members of this broken family.
James T. kirk, you assume your limited experience is the what the majority in Calvary Chapel people experience. That is flatly wrong. I have never met anyone who had a problem with Calvary Chapel except on this website, which makes sense, because that was the original intent of this blog.
We have had the occasional problem in our fellowship, sometime we do a great job and sometimes we do a poor job. When confronted with problems we proceed with love first as has been my experience with all Calvary pastors I have personally met.
Michael, can you remove my last post - I have no reason or desire to be involved in this conversation and that last comment was a momentary lapse in judgement.
Fyi, how much of the comments have you read? I’ve not read them all, but have skipped around in different sections. From what I’ve seen it looks like different days/weeks dealt with different forms of misconduct, child abuse, financial, spiritual.
In one of the sections it lists numerous assistant pastors that have left or been let go, I found this particularly interesting, why such a high turnover? To be fair it doesn’t state what the time frame is.
It’s not easy reading.
Praying for you as you seek the Lord in this situation.
fyi,
How wonderful that you could being some reconciliation and healing. If you stand in the gap I’ll be praying for you!
James T,
Don’t try to make me so unique…..
Details…. I set up the meeting…. in the church I was at before (as an assistant) the senior pastor set up the meeting with his accusors. In the church I was at before that, the senior pastor called a meeting. In a situation with my friend who pastors a CC close by, he set up the meeting, A situation that I know of regarding Chuck Smith, Chuck set up the meeting……
should I go on?
what would I do if this were me? I’d repent and move in with Rick Joyner….
centy, you all practiced up on that “head bob”?
Centy,
Perhaps *I* have the misunderstanding, perhaps “the wild west” is different than the CCs you have experienced. But seriously, the problems are in 3 of the 3 Calvarys I know out here…
Thank you for the honest answers to my honest questions. I am NOT trying to manipulate or “make it sound” like you are an isolated incident, just one I haven’t heard of in MY limited reading/experience.
Holly,
I didn’t coin the phrase “the second coming of Skip”…but I did just pass it on, humourously (maybe just in my own imagination).
You know the story, I imagine…
I am concerned about questionable CC fruit IN MY neighbor hood, but I KNOW there are good CC people out there…and here.
God bless, y’all.
Michael,
Please remove my last comment too — I just figured out what the “second coming” is. I don’t like that topic.
JamesT,
no problem…. and I do not wish to marginalize your experience. I do feel very safe to say that there are many Calvary Chapel pastors out there that love God, their families, the people in their church and try to treat them as Jesus would.
ooh, and Michael, please, DON’T remove my comments…
Michael, I am willing to help if at all possible. I do know Bob would speak to me about the issues if, in fact, you are getting the real story. Let me know how I might help and let his children know they can speak with me. I think you still have my e-mail address.
fyi,
You rock too!
wow, how timely…
http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/816/
hmmm, this is timely too…
http://www.nakedpastor.com/archives/4215
Coming in just for a moment…and praying that fyi might be an answer to prayer? Not to put too much upon your shoulders, and not knowing completely all the story, just that there are hurt people abounding (on both sides would be my guess)
May God be merciful and gracious in this…and hear the heart of his children that there might be resolution, understanding and mercy in this situation. Let the truth rise to the top and all else be made clear to those who need to know…and may this be done with humility by all the parties so that God may be glorified.
Father, we pray that Your Spirit even now would be active in each of these people who call You Lord. Quiet all our hearts, all our agendas, all our pain and hurts and allow each to hear Your still small voice. Father, work miraculous things of the Gospel here in this situation…healing in this family, and healing in this body of believers. Only by You could this happen, and what a glorious display it would be!
Father…again, we lift Michael as well and pray for wisdom and strength. We pray that You will provide him exactly the strength and the resources he needs for what You have called him to…and that it would be clear to him what he is to do.
Father…our hearts break for Your Bride. For those who are hurting and so desire to know You but are confused by their own pain and by fallen leaders (all of us, fallen). It is no small miracle that Your truth remains in the midst of such as us…and it is only by Your work.
You are the Mighty One! The Creator of all…do a work here, Father, that nothing would need to be “exposed” but the hearts that desire mercy and justice and You to be glorified.
I’m pastor Bob’s oldest son, Alex.
“fyi”, as Bob’s friend, I hope you will look into the allegations with an open mind and encourage Bob to confess, repent, reconcile and go through a proper restoration process. Your offer to help is much appreciated, if by help you mean really helping and not just covering over Bob’s sin and telling us to go pray about it some more.
I’ve followed Matt. 18, regarding Bob’s child abuse, emotional abuse and spiritual abuse (that continues to this day) with no success. Prayed for 4.5 years about the situation, found out Bob has been abusing others (who I know) spiritually and believe God told me to speak out and take a stand for what’s right.
The Topix forum, warts and all, tells the story (if you are able to filter through the great deal of noise). Not just the story of child abuse, emotional abuse and spiritual abuse (that is continuing to this day), but the stories of many others (people I know). Yes, there is a lot of noise on there and some of the name calling, etc is not helpful. It’s not a perfect forum for discussing the issues, but I’d encourage you all not to “strain the gnat” while “swallowing the camel.” The main issue is that Bob has (and is) abusing people. He’s been a very poor steward of financial issues. He’s in the current sin of lying. And many many other unresolved things. I’ve been a witness to much of it. There are many former long time members, former staff and former CCV pastors who have confided in me regarding their stories of abuse and/or wrongdoing by Bob over the last three decades.
I believe the right thing to do is to fully investigate all the allegations and then do something about it (if they are found to be true). Not addressing the issues (stonewalling) is not a Biblical response, IMO.
I began posting on the Topix forum in mid to late August. I posted as Broken Hearted 2, after realizing someone had early-on posted as Broken Hearted. The first post on the first page titled Broken Hearted is not me. The posts titled Broken Hearted 2 are. It’s all there for those who want to know what the allegations are.
I’d be happy to answer any questions. I know it’s a tough read with the 1600 entries on that forum.
The Bible is clear about what it takes to be a pastor/elder. The Bible is also clear about dealing with a pastor/elder who has fallen into sin and continues in it.
This is where the rubber meets the road folks. Here you have victims crying out for help…are you going to turn a blind eye because the accused is a CC pastor who another CC pastor “vouches” for as a “man of God?” (even though this CC pastor has no idea what Bob is really like, he’s only seen the Bob that Bob wants him to see).
FYI,
Sorry for what seems like a nasty tone concerning the godly man comment. Please understand I have heard that exact quote … given by more than one … about the pastor I know personally to be over authoritative … and may I add I have heard it from people I otherwise respect. I have also heard it many times about others here on PP … seems to be used quit a bit actually. I mean no disrespect to you & your judgment … that was the point of my personal account. I may not express myself well in written form but I usually see things clearly relative quickly. In the case with the abusive pastor I encountered personally … my family & I knew he & his family well … although there were some warning signs in hindsight … they were excusable to a degree. That all changed when I witnessed first hand his unbelievable behavior. It was unbelievable to me … and I mean that … even after knowing the man for several years … and serving a great deal in the church … my husband & I had no idea he could go off like that … until he did it in front of our own eyes. Anyway … all that to say … please understand the caution about your godly man comment.
It’s awesome that you are willing to help BTW. I will be praying for you.
Absolutely listen to Holly and Xenia.
No questions in my mind AT ALL about this one.
Alex, Your story is a sad one. I don’t know what the solution is. Sadly it appears more are going to be hurt. I pray truth prevails.
Alex,
Welcome to PP. I’m so sorry to hear your account. Please know you are in my prayers.
And another thing, Bob is not only my dad, he’s my pastor.
This is a family matter for sure, as the church is a family. I’ve tried to resolve this privately for years (so have MANY others). Bob’s pride and sin have not allowed for a more private resolution (and he’s had many chances). When the story comes to full light, that will be very apparent to those who are intellectually honest about this situation.
Bob’s choice to cut people off (meaning cast them out), stonewall, lie and not deal with these issues have been poor decisions. He’s a public figure, a pastor/elder and has a lot of accountability before the Lord for what he has taught from the pulpit and then lived the rest of his life in many areas. It should never be OK to say the words from the pulpit and then live such a hypocritical life. If Bob were a regular joe, this would not be a greater church issue.
However, Bob is a pastor/elder and these things are not OK and need to be dealt with…or he should step down and do something else that doesn’t require a Biblical standard. There is something to be said about proper Biblical qualifications and accountability and why they are so important.
Centy @ 11:00
Yeah.
This sad story reads much like others … only this time the family is speaking up. Sadly I fear this will not be the last … these issues need to be addressed. They cannot be ignored & covered up forever. Does anyone really believe the over authoritative behavior limits itself to church attenders/family only & not at times in their biological families as well? In the case of the over authoritative pastor I encountered … it’s his family(wife & grown children) I believe he has emotionally & spiritually abused the most. Sadly they just don”t know it because it’s all they know. Pride is a nasty animal.
I am seeking to understand, so I ask questions. I haven’t read the actual allegations against Bob so I am a little in the dark as to what he is being accused of. But spiritual and emotional abuse, though real, are hard to prove; physical abuse is not. My question is (and it is a question) what is the goal in all of this and how will Michael and the PP help accomplish that?
RE: physical abuse, I think Cali law is similar to Oregon’s and possibly a call to the DA would be in order. They are in a position of authority where Michael and the good folks here are not. Know what I mean?
Alex, I’m so sorry for what you have experienced and continue to experience. It seems a very heartbreaking situation.
I spoke with Alex this afternoon.
The goal, as always, is accountability with repentance and restoration.
My understanding is that Alex and his brothers would like to accomplish that inside the church, with civil and criminal authorities brought to bear as a last resort only.
Keep asking questions!
Was CC Costa Mesa brought into this? Are they aware of the problems (my guess is they are). If so what was their response? There isn’t an official hierarchy within CC and as seen in the past, when Costa Mesa flexes it’s muscles, pastors just disaffiliate (Richard Cimino).
I just wonder what pressure Michael or the PP can put on him or any one? We (Michael) have no official authority in this matter…unless Bob submits to binding arbitration…which, may be an alternative. If there are some tangeable damages sought for the physical abuse, rather than go to court, he could follow 1 Cor 6 and ask for binding arbitration instead of having the matter heard by a judge.
There is a legal process to follow, but could bring out the charges before a group of people empowered to act. Something to think about
Alex, I sense a lot of pain in your posts since you’ve been here. I don’t believe the conclusion you hope for is going to bring the healing you may be in need of. A Godly conclusion will bring you much relief but be aware you may need some sort of counseling to find closure. That might be with a friend, a Pastor, and if required, even a professional.
That’s just an observation on my part but I have been through some difficult times of my own and have learned the enemy is good at seeking to exploit us. These situations can ripple and those small waves can impact those we care for and love the most. I failed miserably at this and hurt the one I love the most, my wife. Please be open and teachable as you walk through this season in your life. God bless you.
I started the forum in Visalia after extensively reading the PP battle. I waited some time before I posted a link on the PP site. I felt encouraged that Michael gave us the time to take a look. One of the things that struck me about Michael’s post today was this “There is also the reality that no matter the offense…people don’t care.” Even if it is in their own back yard, let alone states away. It is because Christians have gone to sleep and are angered when someone tries to wake them. We have lost the fervor of the early church. “Take up your cross and follow me” only applies today when it fits into our schedule, with little personal cost. If we are to love others as we love ourselves, then what injustices are we to allow against our brothers and sisters? Would we stand for it in our own family? Would we let it happen to us?
It’s just as easy to walk away from this as it is to ignore that guy on the corner with a sign in his hand “starving, need food”, just roll up your window and tell yourself, “it’s not my problem, they got themselves into that situation” We don’t feed or give money to everyone on a corner, but sometimes the Lord leads us to do what we can.
If you read through the entire forum you will find some heart wrenching accounts and wild rants. These are people who once had a voice at a church were they worshiped and served. We were all cast aside by a man who cares little for what the Word says he should do in these situations and ignores the please from us who are trying to abide by the Word in seeking restoration. Should we all leave our gifts at the alter? Should we ignore what the bible clearly tells us to do? I’m glad the apostles didn’t have this frame of mind. God can not be put in a box. Have faith and He will move mountains.
This is a church obviously ran by a man who has little connection with God. If we are going to ignore him, then we are going to ignore the congregation who is being led down a path of lies and deceit. As I wrote in the forum and I hate to quote myself but…”They don’t understand the trickle down effect bob has on his ministry. His motives and practices are like a cancer infecting the entire church. When bob makes his staff ignore the cries of the flock, they are now also outside spiritual bounds. The staff teaches and councils under the same skewed mindset to the many who follow without hesitation. Those followers spread that to their family and friends. Now the entire church is walking in lies and lack of humility.”
How long do we let a smooth talking man act above the law? If we are the body, do we allow a finger to pluck out our eye?
I’m glad to see the son step out not hiding behind Michael here today. My heart aches as I’m sure there is torment within his family and the church fellowship. Pastor Hopkins’ words at 4:15 ring true, however. This pastor’s son and his family need to ask themselves IMO is this of a magnitude and character that can be ameliorated, resolved by any action that they can take?
What can Michael do? And is it God’s will for him to do more than what he’s done here? He’s allowed a flag to go up in public. (I’m resisting the urge to say, ‘lets see who salutes’)
will continue to pray - using Sarah’s excellent lead posted above.
Erunner’s words seem wise to me, also. It may be time for the family to take care of themselves and stand firm and clean hearted within the church, if need be. Their strong, independent, clear-headed and clean-hearted walk could be the deciding factor. Forget Dad. The church will notice. IMO
This place can be used just like in the past. Voices can & will be heard. We know that because it happened before. Sadly … it appears once again the cries for help have been ignored by those best in position to deal with this sad situation but God help us if we too … those of us who have heard this before … those of us who once were the ones crying … ignore these cries.
Yes … call for help … help look for other ways to deal with this as well … but for goodness sake … don’t turn a blind eye.
Since I don’t know details, and as Xenia says, I don’t know if it’s my business, I do find this troubling in these situations - that the pastor just stonewalls and does not even acknowledge that there is an issue brewing in his church.
I am sure that he knows from previous experiences at other CCs in the past several years that if you just wait it out, you will survive.
I saw it at Ocean Hills with Skip - even though at least half the people left, the church repopulated with loyal newbies - and when the territorial issues erupted in early ‘06, not a word was mentioned around the church - it was like being in a protective bubble.
If the accusations are true, I wouldn’t hold my breath for change.
It’s funny, when the exodus occurred at OHC, the vacuum was filled immediately with sheep from similar exoduses occurring at the same time from CC Pacific Hills (Danny Bond) and CC Laguna (Joe Sobolic)
“There is also the reality that no matter the offense…people don’t care.”
Please lets not join them … instead let’s show we do care. I truly believe that if each person who is connected to this place … readers & posters … does what he or she can … good will come out of it. Not saying any of it will be easy but still … we should try with God’s help. We can pray … we can listen & encourage … we can provide a safe place for people to tell their stories. There is love & healing in all of that. We can pass the word to others who may be able to do more. Even in this thread there is an example of good coming out of it in FYI’s offer. It could grow from there … yes???
MLD,
Don’t you think that eventually … if enough people speak up … in enough places … enough times … that this sad method of dealing with problems by not dealing with them will eventually catch up to them? In my view the only reason it still works … and those who play this game are still in place to abuse more … is because people stop shouting or never had a place to tell their stories of abuse in the first place. Giving up because it hasn’t worked yet … only keeps the abuse going.
Erunner,
Thanks for the advice. I’ve been through much counseling and am currently in counseling. It has helped (and is helping).
My wife encouraged me to go public, has for years. I have her full support and encouragement. I am treating her the best I ever have, despite Bob’s advice 6-7 years ago to “let the unbeliever depart”…his justification for why I could have Biblical grounds to divorce her. She is a Christian and a much better person than I am (or than Bob ever was). She was, according to Bob, “a thorn in his side”…because she sized him up from day one and wouldn’t kiss the ring and participate in his way of doing things (which is the wrong way). When I was a total jerk in my life (mimicking some of the wrong example I learned from Bob’s misinterpretation and misapplication of Ephesians 5), she was patient with me and by God’s grace, we are still married today.
Regarding my children, I am the best dad I can be. I can proudly and honestly say that. I love my kids and discipline them in love and have a great relationship with them. Thank God, I have not even remotely been tempted to mistreat them (thank you God!).
I’ve had to reprogram regarding my approach to my wife. Thank God she has been so patient with me. I’m treating her properly, now, but it’s taken a lot of help from the Lord (through my current Biblical counselor). My wife’s family has been praying for me for years and her mom has prayed for me to treat her daughter better for years also. God dealt with me, and I repented. I am benefiting tremendously from that repentance. My hope is that Bob will be brought to a place of true repentance in his life.
Regardless, the truth needs to be told for the benefit of the church, for proper accountability (which ultimately will benefit Bob, if he repents) and for the benefit of others who will fall prey to Bob’s mistreatment in the future. People need to know what that whole situation is about (left in the current state it is) so they can make an educated decision as whether or not they should support “his” ministry.
BH2,
“And another thing, Bob is not only my dad, he’s my pastor.”
I have to ask - why do you of all people still go to his church? I can understand others who don’t know the truth and are blinded by loyalty to him and the church body - but you??
Nancy,
“Don’t you think that eventually …”
I don’t know, I’m pretty skeptical - these guys are good at what they do.
This is a difficult issue. Alex, I have more compassion for you than I can ever express. I went through many years of not only child abuse but hopelessness that it would ever end or be answered. In my case, it was but it took a very big issue to break that particular bubble for my abuser. In the end, it was guilt that did it. Guilt over one event that enabled all that abuse.
It would not have happened had some brave souls not stepped up to tell my abuser it was wrong. It took a lot of telling. I was one of those people. Although I was not brave while I did it, I wanted to live a life free of that so I stood up and was struck down many times. But it ended.
We need brave souls. We do. I am discouraged that there is so little hope of that on these pages. Why even post here concerning any issue if you all have so little hope of anything changing in any regard?
Simply put, there are people among us who are designed to do the hard jobs of life. Michael is one of them. These folks need our support and compassion and counsel. But as the Body, we are to help remind our brethren of the hope our Lord has for us. I am not seeing that here today.
There is much healing to be had through open discussions of these often shameful issues. Had I never opened my mouth, I would not have begun to heal.
Please consider these things as you pray.
And Michael… you have my eternal respect. I thank God for you often.
That is why I go to a church that has a church board and an elder board of people you know and can approach and a district office just up the street.
I think it would be wise for all of us to withhold judgment until all the facts are collected. I think the purpose of this thread was a call to prayer…might be good to keep it at that
Sarah, thank you for articulating that prayer! Praying along with you…
Laura,
Thank you for sharing that … well said.
I wonder why we assume that BH2 has not followed every avenue and considered and explored all options?
He has very kindly and carefully laid out for us what he has endured (especially in another thread a week and half ago) and the process he has engaged in to bring provide the means for repentance, reconciliation and restoration.
Have any considered that repentance, restoration and reconciliation that is resisted by some during the normal course of life will take place as part of and as a result of the judgment seat of Christ?
Praying ….
Alex,
I appreciate your humiity and forthrightness.
I’m sure some comments today are offensive to you…a few sound like the kind of excuses people make for abusers.
I’ll tell you that from my experiences with an abusive father, and from that of elders who had problems (some legitimate, some not) with the senior pastor–DO NOT go to bitterness (Hebrews 12, see Esau).
Forgive. If needed, repent. Keep your heart soft.
There was nothing but unchecked destruction in my bitterness and rebellion.
The elders I spoke of went (and at least one are still going) down a very bad path.
I did not sense bitterness in what you wrote, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t still caution you.
God WILL deal with those who’ve harmed you; you and your family are in my prayers.
And He will use SOME person, SOME circumstance to deal with them…and it’s rarely pretty.
May God bless you and your family
Welcome to the PP
“You took on some difficult situations in the past trying to ‘right some wrongs.’ Instead, God used you to provide an online home for hurting people to meet each other and minister to each other.”
Amen, His Kid. PP truly is “an online home for hurting people to meet each other and minister to each other”.
Alex, It seems you are doing well although this whirlwind of activity and that yet to come will be challenging. I got to the point I thought I had things figured out and I was smelling like a rose. The fact was I was the thorn that caused some to bleed.
I am so glad you and your wife are doing well and are united. You will always need one another and your children will benefit from the love you show each other.
In the last few days I received an e-mail about my Grandmother. I came to some conclusions as a result and it turns out I didn’t have all of the information. I have much more now and realize there’s always more to a story.
My father was a mean alcoholic and I hated him. I told people he was dead. I later learned what a terrible upbringing he had and what it did to him. It softened my heart towards him and we did reconcile and were on excellent terms when he died.
I am not making excuses for your father but relating my story. There may be a day when your father needs you. My father and I became close after the turbulent times were over. He did come to a place where he asked forgiveness from all four of his children. I told him I had already forgiven him.
A friend who posts here in speaking of restoration of fallen Pastors is that they first need to be reconciled to God. If that is what’s necessary for your father I pray it happens sooner than later. Again, I’m sorry for your pain and pray for God to do more than you might hope for in this situation. God bless!
MLD, I don’t attend his church anymore, I live in another state now. I meant that he is my pastor, in that I was raised in that church and he has been my pastor for most of my life. I still consider him to be my pastor in that sense. (Like many of you who have spent thirty years with one pastor, would consider them your pastor). That’s what was meant. He would still be my pastor today, had he dealt with this situation properly.
I didn’t leave him, I wanted to reconcile. He was confronted and then chose to cut me off (and my other brothers) rather than deal with this, at which point, I finally left CCV and the area.
I echo Nancy’s words.
When was doing the right thing dependent on expected outcomes?
A lot of people, saved and unsaved, are watching this situation (and over time, I believe, this will be an example to many more).
BH2-
Praying for you and your family during this difficult time. I pray your bravery in stepping forward is rewarded with the accountability and reconciliation you seek.
Michael-
Praying here for guidance for you whether this is a mantle you can handle or not, and if so, guidance and protection as you proceed.
May God Bless your heart as you seek to help.
Hey everyone … breaking in with some totally unrelated … but good news … so I’m sharing it just cause good news is always fun. Just found out my cousin is a grandpa … we have a brand new healthy baby boy in our family. Hey … that makes me a grand or great cousin … something like that.
Michael,
My prayers are with you. I was involved for years in an abusive church, Calvary Chapel San Bernardino, and I wish someone had stood up for me when the pastors told me that my husband was abusing me because I wasn’t “submissive” enough. People may say that you need to not get involved, but someone has to stand up for what’s right and if God is calling you, you must listen to Him. God Bless you Michael.
been, like everyone else here, praying about this topic today - and wouldn’t weigh in anymore except…
I’m right back where I started today. If Michael, risks his health, picks up his sword, exactly what will the target be and why? To keep a wrong-doer(s) sheltered from the civil authorities?
Do we have a congregation of battered wives or children? Does he say, ‘beat your wives and children into submission, guys?’ Can misuse of funds be proved? Is this happening? Is there evidence on the table to take some guys to jail? If so, **go to the police.**
If the abuse is too nebulous for the above intervention, then this is a good place to come for solace and prayer now.
God keep all close and comforted this night.
Steve Hopkins,
“I think it would be wise for all of us to withhold judgment until all the facts are collected. I think the purpose of this thread was a call to prayer…might be good to keep it at that”
Yes, get all the facts. Then make a judgment. Let’s have some transparency from Bob and CCV. I made many requests for them to deal with this, no response…4.5 years ago and recently. Zero response. Others have made numerous attempts regarding many other issues. Zero resolution, often no response.
Michael has much of the testimony and “facts” regarding the many allegations. Bob has replied with zero, except to attack from the pulpit (as he has done many times in the past when “the devil has attacked him”). I’ve watched this scenario play out many times before (behind the scenes) when people have tried to bring accountability to Bob in the past. Now I’m on the receiving end. Quite surreal.
Bob’s MO is to poison the well and backbite and call those who challenge him “evildoers”, “gossips”, “attackers from the devil”, “unbelievers”…etc. He then starts preaching about “fiery darts from the devil” and how to withstand the enemy etc. He circles the wagons, gets the faithful in line, carefully manipulates them to shun the “evildoers” and to ignore their claims as “gossip”, “lies”…etc. He’s on damage control right now with his CC SoCal buddies. I know these guys, spent time with some of them on mission’s trips. They know the CC in-front-of-the-lights-and-cameras Bob, but not the real Bob (though there’s a local CC pastor who knows the real Bob pretty well). It will be interesting for me to see if they even respond to the letters I sent them outlining the child abuse, emotional abuse and spiritual abuse (that is continuing to this day).
Stonewalling is also part of what Bob does. When he cuts you off, you have to talk to one of his surrogates (I’m his son and had to speak to Greg Dowds, Bob’s main elder, and beg to see my dying grandmother who was staying at Bob’s home at the time. I got nowhere, until I told Greg to tell Bob to let me see her, or I was going to the local newspaper. I said the magic words and was “granted” a supervised brief visit (this was over 4 years ago), with the Dowd’s as monitors. I felt like I was a U.S. reporter in Iraq, pre-war. We were kept from her CC funeral when she passed. I then had to endure hearing my mom say that she didn’t have us as children anymore…after confronting Bob about the abuse and seeking resolution about it and other issues. These are the kinds of things Bob does. It’s not right, I don’t care how you spin it.
I don’t share it out of bitterness (I stayed silent for 4.5 years while God dealt with my bitterness) just to put a human element to illustrate how wrong Bob’s heart is.
There is no defense for the abuse we endured as children (the details are clear-cut child abuse and plenty of it), the abuse we are enduring as adults and the many other wrongdoings that will soon be exposed (financial impropriety, pastoral misconduct and many other issues).
Bob has recently framed himself in his messages (I believe) as King David. Bob said, “David repented, and God forgave him…immediately.” Yes, the key is that David truly confessed and repented. That’s what’s been missing, true confession and repentance. You can’t have reconciliation and restoration without the confession and repentance. And you can’t repent, without changing your ways. I’m still hopeful for that outcome, but resolved to do what is right nonetheless.
Folks I have read only a part of BH2′ posts on the thread Michael linked to. BH2 though he has been the abused and the refused is ministering to other people and is gracious and understanding in his interactions with others on that forum.
I see him doing the same here.
I’m not sure that I get the point of this thread. If there are problems in Visalia, then those fine folks should take care of them. If any of the allegations are true, run don’t walk, to the nearest exit!
Jim: Compassionate, consistent, courage acted out is what I see.
When I read Ezekiel 33 and 34 I do not find anything that comes near your counsel to run.
broken hearted 2 I read through about half of the posts on the other blog the first part and the last part to be specific. First I am sorry, which really does not mean a lot nor does it change much. But I am. One type of exterior “restraint” that may help but it is a very very large gun.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf
I thank God that, in my reading, the local church is where church authority ends…unless you have an apostle or sumethang. Freedom is (can be?) a beautiful thing.
But nothing getting done when fathers and pastors don’t do “their jobs” can be one consequence.
There’s no good solutions when a husband doesn’t act like he should, or a father or a pastor…
Jim,
“If any of the allegations are true, run don’t walk, to the nearest exit!”
Why is it that the pew sitters must always leave Christ’s church? That’s exactly what an abusive leader wants. Why can’t it be ‘toss the rascal out’?
And I don’t want to hear “well, God will take care of the abusive pastor.” - perhaps that IS God’s way - tar and feathers!
With Pastors and Churches which become non profits or tax exempt which is most of them, there are very powerful best practices that can be put in place. And it does work quite well when done up front. I help write best practices and did it hundreds of time in my MBA. Church bylaws can be extremely powerful locally controlled guild lines that keeps the foxes out of the hen house. It is actually rather freeing the bylaws become the “bad guy” in a dispute and people are protected as is property. A balance of power between the congregation, the board and the pastoral authority, a whistle blower clause should always be added to all bylaws and give it teeth on both sides.
I think all seminaries should require this training it can save a congregation alot of time and money.
I forgot to add in my last post to Jim J - which was my main point - note Jim that you said “If the allegations were true” that the people should leave. Isn’t that odd? The guy is a rascal, an abuser of the flock and mismanages the monies and you tell people to leave their own church instead of you advising the guy that perhaps his pastoring days are over?
Remind me not to come to you for counsel.
Still doesn’t “feel right” to me….
What is it exactly in the present that is happening that Micheal is supposed to come in and clean up again???
Even if Alex’s allegations of his dad smacked him around and was mean to him are true…and maybe they are…dunno…what is Michael supposed to do about that? It’s in the past. It’s done and Alex needs to deal with it as a grown up.
This whole thing very much feels like he’s using this blog, and Michael’s passion for defending people, as a way to “tattle tell” on his dad.
It doesn’t feel mature, responsible or loving to me. It feels immature and a bit vindictive to me. A way for an angry son to get back at his dad in a public forum instead of dealing with him as an adult does.
It feels like he’s dragging Michael into a fight that isn’t Michael’s to fight and could actually be harmful to his health etc.
That to me is just downright selfish and further sign of immature handling of this family conflict.
Sorry…but it’s how I see it. I don’t think this is Micheal’s fight at all. Hoping FYI can help bring some sort of resolution here.
Wow London, don’t know quite how to respond to you, other than to encourage you to take the time and read all my posts on the Topix forum. I can’t understand your comments, unless you haven’t read all the information (then it makes sense). But, you’re certainly entitled to your feelings about things. The counsel and input I’ve received from many around me (pastors, friends, family members, former CCV pastors, staff, friends etc.) is quite contrary to your feelings.
Regarding Michael, I’ve asked for his help, but by no means demanded it. If Michael has been called to help people through this ministry, and if he believes God wants him to get involved, he should. If he doesn’t believe God wants him to get involved, he shouldn’t. God is big enough to handle this with or without Michael. His help in bringing light to these matters (and hopefully some resolution) would be appreciated, but by no means is demanded or absolutely expected.
You should ask Michael about my attitude and communication toward him regarding these matters before jumping to so many conclusions and feelings.
No offense intended, I don’t know you…but you’ve made a lot of accusations against me and my motives and I don’t understand where it’s coming from. But, regardless, I realize that you’re never going to please everyone, so God bless you and I hope you’ll reconsider your feelings.
London, when can maturity be felt?
It can be measured by it’s course of actions over time and in the substance of it’s interactions with other people.
If you read BH2 here and on the other forum thread you see a man ministering to the people His Father has abused and set aside.
You can read about attempts to reconcile over a timeline of events.
You see a man who has fought through his own issues and reactions and is overcoming them through the grace of Jesus Christ.
You do not see an Absalom sitting outside the courts of David feigning care for people as a cover for his own bitterness and need for attention.
I do not see Michael fighting . . .
I do not see nor hear this man placing any burden or expectation upon Michael.
MLD, I totally agree.
I’ve encouraged CCV people I know who still attend to stay and bring about change to the church. CCV is far more than Bob. It’s God’s church, not Bob’s church.
Bob’s answer has always been to just leave. Well, like you said, a lot of people have put time, money and invested in long-time relationships at CCV. Why should they have to leave? Wouldn’t it be better for the CCV Board, the pastors, elders, deacons etc. to resolve the issues and bring proper accountability to that situation? Bob could either repent, or step down, or both.
Why should the people have to leave, when it is the pastor who is in sin?
Also London, why do you apologize all the time in your posts?
Just my thoughts here-
First off, BH2 I’m sorry for your situation. I know your dad and I know that for you to have to be on a blog trying to bring some sort of resolution is soo far less than ideal.
I’ve been around pp for a long time. Too long (although I don’t post much the last 2 years as I have enough heartache living where I do).
I agree with the London simply on the fact that when these things happen, the only outcome that happens for sure is that Michael ends up sick and with an ulcer. If you look at the litany of situaions that have played out here, Skip is back in CCAbq, Sabolick is pretty much out of the ministry, Bentley will be leading his thing with adoring hoardes in a years time. No matter how much the pp family gets involved. Not sayign that this blog serves no purpose, but it doesn’t fix the situation it only exists to help some folks pick up the pieces.
If I were Bob, there is no way I’d be trying to reconcile with my kids on a blog.
Just my thoughts
Daniel, according to your logic Ezekiel should not have bothered to write down the Word of the Lord in Ezekiel 33 and 34. It is not about what man will or will not do. It is about what Jesus has done and what He is doing amongst His Redeemed.
Maybe Jesus 7 letters were just a waste of time. Does He even use people?
It’s not just about a man abusing his children, but church wide emotional, spiritual, and financial abuse. It’s difficult to read, but if you haven’t read any of the post yet you might want to read a few pages.
Laura,
I think the point is, as London said, this isn’t Michael’s battle to fight. It extracts a severe toll on him that I don’t think many people appreciate. He has been through alot lately and it doesn’t show any signs of getting better soon. People here don’t know the half of it. Yes he likes to stand up for the underdog, but there is a certain lack of wisdom in getting into the middle of a battle which isn’t yours. London pegged it when she said what exactly will be accomplished at this point? I agree that in your case (from what you shared), your speaking up ended the abuse. But these allegations of abuse happened a long time ago. My experiences in life and the things I have endured are not unlike yours, Laura — so I’m not at all meaning to sound coldhearted (I’m not) — but I don’t think this is something Michael should be dealing with. If these adult children need a public outlet, aren’t they already posting their story over at the other link? Why does it need to be posted on this blog site as well? It does smack of revenge to me. I may be wrong — and I mean nothing ill toward Alex or any of them. Alex seems like a nice, well spoken young man. I pray most of all the family would reunite and Alex and his siblings would have restored relationships with their mom and dad (Bob). Michael will do what he feels is the right course of action, but I do have deep reservations about all this.
By the way, I think I remember you (if I am not remembering wrong). Didn’t you sit with the Cecil group at Calvary, about 6 rows back from the front? I was part of the group with Mercedes and 6 other people - but Cecil always saved the seats for us too. Things aren’t the same without him. He was such a dear soul. Anyway, it’s nice to “see” you again.
I hope you’re well.
MLD, I posted a response to you on TGIF.
I can’t believe you think that!! 
Victorious is speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit…
Father, We lay our opinions aside, and listen for your voice.
You have knowledge of all things. You see the end from the beginning.
Be glorified in all we do and say.
We turn our ears toward heaven, and we trust You are bending down, as you are intimately acquainted with our weaknesses.
You have the words of life…
Speak.
~Selah
Hi Daniel,
The blog is the next in line of a series of attempts to resolve things.
1. Made numerous attempts to meet with Bob in person (over 4.5 years ago). No result. Was told to meet with Greg and Sue Dowds and to put it in a letter.
2. Met with Greg and Sue Dowds (Bob’s two main elders). No resolution.
3. Sent Bob the letter he requested after he refused in-person meetings. No response.
4. Took Greg and Sue’s advice to pray about things. Did for over 4 years.
5. Stumbled upon the Topix forum, which was started by a former CCV member/music minister in late August of this year. Read (and was reminded also) of how many people Bob has hurt and continues to hurt. Believed God told me it was time to share my story publicly and “tell it to the church” as Matt. 18 says (after going to Bob and to his two main elders).
6. Was made aware of Michael’s ministry when he posted on Topix. Contacted Michael after checking him out. Believed it would help “tell it to the church” with the hopes of bringing proper accountability.
7. Sent letters to Bob and Greg (again) along with the rest of the current CCV board, including Raul Ries, David Rosales and Gary Ruff expressing the desire to deal with these issues and to seek reconciliation.
That’s where it’s at today. Of course I don’t expect Bob to engage me on this blog (or the other one). But a phone call or reply email would sure be nice…to date, zero.
BH2= I’m not going to take the time to read all your posts on another forum. I’ve read most of them here already and that gives me all the information I really need to make a decision.
I’ve been around this blog for a very long time and have seen loads of people who are hurting about church stuff come and go.
I’ve never once seen an adult child come in and exposure their parent in the way you have. It doesn’t feel right to me intuitively and while I was posting, I figured out why.
and I say “I’m sorry” in hopes I don’t get my butt kicked too badly by the people I know are about to disagree adamantly with me. Doesn’t usually work though
This is way off topic but I consider it a more global issue for the Faith. I have discussed this before and you find people have put up with my blabber. So I will start taking some classes in a few subjects Quantum field theory, Biological evolution mainly focusing on the human Genome, and a theological perspective of these issues. There is a lot more to it but I think it will be helpful, I think Ray Comfort, and the folks at answers in genesis dont answer much. Some of what they say is self refuting but that is another post. As stupid as this sounds the more I probe these sciences the more my faith grows, it even makes me “repent” more. I E I see a majesty that is so transcendent and also so personal it makes me shudder in Holy Reverence.
The problem is I find the field leading towards RC, Lutheran, EO and most likely the Anglican communion. The problem is back in the day I had it drilled into my head, these are all apostate communions, with the Catholics being the hottest cannon fodder for the fires of hell. Yes that is a loose quote. I want to be able to help people in my boat with real answers but I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I definitely swim near the very very shallow end of the spiritual pool.
The first to plead his case seems right,
Until another comes and examines him.
Proverbs 18:17
Those of us who don’t know the facts should be wary of taking sides until the truth is clear. We’ll do more good by praying.
May God be glorified through this.
Amen, Greg B.
Perceived cost should never dictate our actions.
I say this as one who has also paid dearly for my involvement on this blog.
Like David, if the giant is ours, we run like the wind with our small stone into our certain death trusting that God is with us.
This is what we listen for, without bias.
Is this giant ours?
bri- you’re a brainiac dude
This is quite a family on here and I sincerely feel the love and concern you all have for Michael. After some reflection and re-reading of some of your posts tonight, I believe it is probably best for Michael to pass on this one.
There are other avenues for me and my brothers (and the many others). I’ll talk with Michael in the morning and make it clear that his involvement is not necessary. No ill feelings on my end. God will prevail in these matters regardless, I truly believe that.
Good night to all.
BH,
I really feel terrible for your situation. I couldn’t even imagine. And I really mean that.
All I meant by my post is that utilizing the blog to let the church know might not actually help. That’s why I listed the past happenings here. Just some irrelevant thoughts of mine.
Nomans, you’re poetic tonight.
BH 2 I wont go into details but I truly understand some of your situation, very personally. I reconciled with my father, and was with him near his death, I was the only child there, one was somewhere they could not come and the other one lived in another state. I had to tell them of our fathers death, it was a long very long suffering great pain over a decade. I watched it happen and was there, always there. I dont think my faith community at the time knew what to do with me, they did want to help but I pulled my dump truck of issues up and dumped it out every time I asked. You are not doing that but I know it scared people. That may be what is happening in some ways. People fear change, often dread it, that is why some will do almost anything to support the status quo. I was glad I was with my dad at the end, I do pray very much you and your father can reconcile.
It was worth the time I spent, I know it is worth your time as well. I pray for the day your mother can hold her grandson and you personally get to watch the event, you and your younger brother. And the breath of the Holy Spirit sends healing to your family. If your Father is reading this, sir make up with your children, they are your blood. Just do it. God be with you.
Victorious,
Well said in all your posts!
London,
I’m surprised at your rush to judgement based on limited facts. I though you of all people … logical & the strong business women that you are … would check all the facts available before making such a strong statement. Yet … you react going on “feelings” … admittedly based on limited reading. Like I said … I’m surprised. Wowaaa … and … I’m the right brained artist.
“Perceived cost should never dictate our actions.
I say this as one who has also paid dearly for my involvement on this blog.
Like David, if the giant is ours, we run like the wind with our small stone into our certain death trusting that God is with us.
This is what we listen for, without bias.
Is this giant ours?”
Yea … what Nomans said! The best way to protect Michael is to pray he … and all of us … see clearly the Lords will in this.
Opps … That’s … Lord’s will
Matthew 18: 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.”
My interpretation (and the opinion of others) is that “tell it unto the church” (after following the other prescribed actions) includes the “church”…meaning the local church (CCV) and the greater church, meaning all of you and others in the Body of Christ, the “church.”
1 Timothy 3:
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, their wives[b] are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
Bob is a pastor/elder, he has a lot of power over people. He continues to harm people in his current condition, and that is wrong. I know how he is and I experience what he does. In good conscience, I will not sit idly by and merely “pray about it”…I will continue to take action, until someone listens and does something.
Galations 6:
1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5for each one should carry his own load.
6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor.
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
I truly believe this is a just cause. Bob is not what 1 Timothy describes. He is in sin and “God cannot be mocked.”
“Let us not become weary of doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
To me, doing good in this situation transcends many levels:
Good for the former CCV members, staff, pastors etc. who have been harmed by Bob and would like justice, accountability and/or reconciliation. Many of these people have no closure and feel helpless and abandoned.
Good for Bob. When is enabling sin and not confronting it in someone’s life good for them? What’s best for Bob is true repentance of many sins.
Good for me and my family (what’s left). I believe the only hope I have of ever having a relationship with Bob and my mom again is if Bob truly repents. As it stood before, when I lied and went along with all I knew was wrong with Bob and that situation, peace at any price became too high a price (especially for my marriage). As it stands now after trying to resolve the issues (4.5 years ago and now) so we could have a new God honoring relationship, I am cut off, cast aside, another casualty of CCV.
Am I to go away quietly (again) and take some people’s advice (London) and believe that somehow my motives are to “tattle tell” or that I’m being “vindictive” and “immature”…no, I don’t believe that. My heart is right, and as respectfully as I can type the words, London, I don’t appreciate your callousness or your “feelings”…especially when you won’t take the time to read the posts on the Topix forum before forming your opinions. You don’t have the first clue about my heart or motives and I’ll leave it at that.
Regarding Michael’s involvement, that issue I understand. I didn’t know it would potentially be such a burden for him. When he posted on Topix and I checked him out, I thought it was a door opening to help deal with this situation (”tell it to the church”). After learning more about Michael’s health and the toll his past go-rounds with CC have taken on him, I think the advice some of you have given him “to pass” on this one is good advice.
While I have experienced the weaknesses of the Moses Model (and lack of proper accountability at the local CC level in CCV’s case) first hand, I still don’t paint the whole movement with that brush. There are CC pastors, who I believe are men of God and have been a great help and encouragement to me. I love them. I grew up in the movement and see how much good God has done. I don’t believe that Bob is a unique situation, but I do believe it is best for CC and the greater church to step up and deal with these things when they are brought to your attention. People like London (and some others I’ve encountered on the other forum and elsewhere) are just plain wrong. You can find all kinds of reasons to dismiss victims and those who try to deal with these issues in the church. That’s easy. The hard thing is to invest some time and help.
BH2,
Your conduct here has been exemplary.
This is a wonderful community…those who agree and those who do not all seek to please the Lord.
I am continuing in prayer and I am continuing in my efforts to help resolve this matter in the most godly, positive, way possible for all.
We have already raised the attention level a notch or two…
I will make my decisions based on what the Lord leads me to do…maybe this time the prayers of God’s people and the power of the Holy Ghost will bring about a miracle of grace that we can celebrate for the rest of the life of this blog.
Let us be cautious and gracious and hopeful as we seek His will and His way in this matter.
Thanks Michael. Good words.
Broken Hearted 2 & Michael … well said!
Praying for you both …
Michael said —
** “This is a wonderful community…those who agree and those who do not all seek to please the Lord.” **
And I am now the third person to say “well said!”
Anyway, that WAS well said. One thing I like is that, as you said, so many people here have varying differences of opinions (hey, *you and I* are known to have LOTS differences of opinions!!) yet are united by our common pursuit of wanting and striving to please God. It doesn’t mean we all have to agree and be of one mind on issues. In fact, it would be quite dull were that the case. No “yes men” allowed here!!!
Yay Yay Yay!! Yay! I’m so EXCITED Thanksgiving break is coming!!! The kids are off school for three days straight starting tommorow — yay yay yay!!! Now if only the cold weather would go away my happiness would be complete.
“No “yes men” allowed here!!!”
Whooowhooo Madison*bella … well said!!!
Madison Bella,
Amen to that, no “yes” men!
You guys (especially the women on here) would last about a split second at CCV (due to Bob’s poor leadership), one question or challenge and gonzo…sad, but true.
If I agree with all you other guys about no yes men allowed does that mean I am a yes man?
Steve,
Broken Hearted 2,
You mean if I asked a question at your dad’s church I’d be, like…asked to leave? Wow that’s harsh. Even if I didn’t understand something that was said in the sermon and needed clarification? It would be interpreted as a challenge? Sounds like a pastor with deep-seated insecurities. You are right — I wouldn’t go to a church like that.
Steve,
Yes it does!!! Now go to the back of the class and take your cookie cutter stamp with you! (Just kidding!!)
Nancy,
Yes, Madison Bella.
I have first-hand accounts from women I know very well at CCV who have shared that exact example you’ve illustrated…it was received as a challenge and they were treated in an improper manner and were in essence shown the door. Several, not one.
Even yelled at.
So, I hope you can see why I’m reluctant to go away and just pray about things without taking action. I do want resolution for myself, as my emotions reminded me of (still teared up) from reading the letter from the other abusive pastor who has repented and reconciled with his family (that Michael posted this morning).
But, I also feel a responsibility and calling to bring some accountability to Bob on behalf of others (and so others won’t experience what I have and others have…and will continue to if he’s left unchecked).
Broken Hearted 2,
I know first hand about that … gonzo … thing. We call ourselves “blow outs” in these parts. I live in southern New Jersey and sadly there is a CC pastor in this area who also does not deal well with anything he considers to be a challenge to his authority. “Even yelled at”… yikes … know about that as well.
Wow, I’m amazed. I wouldn’t put up with that for a minute. Isn’t a pastor supposed to help the flock with theological questions **about his own sermon**??? How rude!! I’ve never seen anything like that, nor would I want to. Then again I’m not the type of person to go up to a senior pastor and ask a question — I either figure it out eventually on my own, or I ask all my buddies for clarification instead. (And James Montgomery Boice of course — he *always* has the answers, may he RIP.)
wow Fusco,
Strange position coming from you and your cry of inbalanced scales that caught notice a few years back. maybe you’ve learn a few things through that experience, I don’t know. I do not think that BH2 expects reconciliation here on a blog..
vic,
you speak with good biblical wisdom…….
Folks- I’d like to offer another perspective on this. My adult child has accused my wife and I of abuse (physical, emotional, sexual) for years. Publicly, in court, privately to friends and family. All of it has been outright, despicable lies. Yet, she continues to this day. I have not seen nor spoken to my grandchildren (some of whom I raised for years) for over three years. My daughter has participated in, and now apparently LEADS, a church group of adult children traumatized by their parents. I’m sure the people in that group have no idea her stories are completely fabricated.
Having said that- I love my daughter and pray for her and her family every day. There has been pain on all sides. However- I would never expose her or her family to public scrutiny or grief- and responding to her allegations publicly would do just that. So- I remain silent publicly- reaching out only to her and her husband privately. They do not respond.
Please be cautioned- just because somebody says something does not make it true. Many are expert at manipulating and convincing others to believe lies.
My point in all this is simple- I can fully understand a person’s reluctance to respond publicly to an adult child’s allegations. This is a family matter that, unfortunately, was apparently exposed by the children.
I may get slammed for this- but unless you have been on the receiving end of false allegations- you are not entirely qualified to make judgments about this situation.
Interesting, mere questions causing so many fearful insecure responses.
The CCMovement’s stake in the ground is the rapture and end times return of Jesus. I remember one of the CCCM out buildings next to the Shell Station on the corner of Sunflower and Fairview having a big Maranatha! dove and typography saying something like, “God keeps His promises, Jesus is coming soon!” (anyone have photos they can share that would be cool to see a link). They have since painted over that embarrassing and misleading graphic and put up something else, which I think is wise.
Point is, if you subscribe to the Darby/Rapture/Lindsay end times stuff, then one view could be that Jesus is merciful in tarrying, having delayed his coming to allow more people to come to Him, but in the process the evil rulers (a few bad apples) have begun to beat the fellow servants, forgetting the imminent return of their Master.
In the gospels Jesus actually warned His listeners with such a story, about thinking you’ll get away with being a Jerk for Jesus and having to deal with your Master’s unexpected return.
For me, since I’m more of a preterist, I have a more sobering concern, of being a jerk, then keeling over from a rage induced heart attack and immediately being in the unfiltered presence of Jesus, Who looks at me and says, “My child, uhh, the way you were just treating that other person… what WERE you thinking???!!!”
Mark,
Quick question, have you read all of this and the posts at other blog?
Mark,
You have a valid concern…one that has created no small amount of thought on my part.
No - I must admit I have not had the time to read the 1,668 posts on the other blog that date back to June of this year.
I have read the comments posted here on PP. What stirred me to write was BH2 coming here to post. In my experience, my adult child was always looking for a new venue to tell her story. Believe me- it is painful just to sit here and type this note. I only wanted to bring a different perspective to this discussion.
Thank you, Michael, for your reply. I note that your posts on this thread have been “measured” . You are in a tough spot. There seems to be a knee jerk reaction by most here to accept all of these allegations at face value as truth.
I am much more cynical in that regard.
Mark,
Spend the time, read both blogs. it’s worth understanding. Your sensitivity is appreciated, yet it needs to be tempered with the reality be stated at both blogs. It’s difficult. But your innocence is your anchor and truth is what will help you stand tall even in the hurt you feel as a father.
Mark,
Nothing knee jerk going on here at PP. Most of us have been badly abused by a few bad churches, pastors and elders, sadly we’ve got the CCMovement in common. We love the CCMovement as an idea and wish to see it suffer no harm, but you will find a brutal honesty here that gives grace to the hurting and abused because we’ve lived it.
Thank you (lo). My anchor is a loving God who has saved my wife, my other children and my oldest grandchild. And I stand tall in the truth that the Holy Spirit calls to the rest of my family - that they may also be saved. I need a break from this for now. It really hurts. Might be back later.
Mark,
I am in the same position you are, and it really is causing me a tension while reading this. Also, my family has suffered due to a dysfunctional fellowship, and some of the wounds get ripped open hard this time of year. I am praying for all involved in this and hope that God ends up showing up and straightening this up. The more I see this stuff, the more I am thinking of finding and island or a mountain to go live on.
Mark,
You are correct in that not all accusations are true. Part of the abuse I experienced in my former church was being falsely accused. It’s painful … and I can’t even imagine the pain if the accusation had been from my own daughter. My daughter’s words were twisted and used against me at one time … that was painful enough but her meaning was much different then how it was used against me. That being said … there seems to be a lot more to this story than one adult child accusing his parent of abuse. As for the coming here looking for a new venue … same goes for someone trying to truly expose the truth for the sake of warning others and hopefully bring the abuser to repentance & reconciliation.
pondering still…
I had an in-law who claimed that he did not see his children or his wife because his mother-in-law (3rd family branch) would not allow him to. No court order involved and he was a peaceful man, but…
my husband and I always wondered, how could anyone stop us if we were trying to get to family? we knew where they lived and persistence would pay off eventually - even if we had to climb thru a window or something…
if that was my dad, I’d have a face to face by hook or by crook - even if I was jelly legged and scared to death doing so… is that simple minded yayhoo thinking? (not to be confused with yahoooo)
just still trying to understand…
Joe,
That island/mountain idea sounds tempting … I fear even if that kind of seemingly perfect protected place exists … we’d reck it if any of us went there.
This stuff is painful and ugly to face … but we know full well that ignoring it only makes it grow far worse. Sad but true.
I did the island/mountain thing once. Didn’t work, cause I brought me along..
***if that was my dad, I’d have a face to face by hook or by crook - even if I was jelly legged and scared to death doing so… is that simple minded yayhoo thinking? (not to be confused with yahoooo)
***
No, it’s not simple minded. However, it seems to me that what Broken Hearted wants is not merely a face-to-face with Bob, but rather a face-to-face with a Bob who is open to reconciliation. Forcing a face-to-face confrontation isn’t going to accomplish that. But, Bob himself agreeing to a face-to-face would perhaps be an indication that he was open to some type of civility or reconciliation.
Jessica, is the goal reconciliation or is it repentance? Peace isn’t always ‘nice.’ Sometimes it’s whitewash on a sepulchre (to stretch our Lord’s words a bit).
just still pondering - guess I should shut up and pray for God to unleash His wisdom and power…
***Jessica, is the goal reconciliation or is it repentance?***
I believe Alex stated that he doesn’t believe any genuine reconciliation can occur without repentance.
At any rate, I don’t see how forcing a face to face meeting with Bob would result in anything positive.
“Repentence”… I bristle at that christianese term, full of loaded meaning, usually, “change your mind and agree with me”
“Reconciliation” is a far more meaningful idea in that the continuing choices are made to live peaceably with another, with respect, dignity, healthy boundaries.
Nancy- you’re probobally surprised becaue you have a preconcieved notion of how “strong logiacl businesswomen” act and/or you’ve limited your definiation of who I am to that one label.
I’m a multi-label kinda gal
BH2- I’m not your enemy. You’re pissed off at your dad and now you want to take it out on me. I’m entitled to my opinion just like everyone else here. You don’t like it and that’s perfectly ok. You don’t have to. I’m also entitled to my feelings about a subject, just like everyone else.
I did look at some of the Topix forum last night. It didn’t change anything about what I think (if that’s an easier word for people to swallow).
I wish you and your family the best in this situation. I hope I’m wrong and somehow plastering bad things about your dad all over the internet will make his heart more open to you.
Good luck with that…and peace to you and your family.
London,
Dunno … all I know is … I had a bad feeling about your bad feeling.
London,
Wouldn’t that be the case then with anything that has been exposed here? Real question. Seems to me you are missing the fact that the accusations are not just a father son thing. The accusations read much like others … abuse of power manipulation … control …
working my way down the thread…
Mark- good word at 9:00am!
Grendal,“Repentence”… I bristle at that christianese term, full of loaded meaning, usually, “change your mind and agree with me”
well I bristle at the term ‘christianese’
but, what I meant was…
admit that it’s wrong to, in this case, bully and whatever else - dunno - admit you did it and want to do your best to stop doing it
otherwise, you’ve got the ‘battered wife’ syndrome style of peace IMO
gotta go and do some things out in the rain (ick)
Nancy- I’ve said what I’ve said. You want the guy to keep posting accusations around the internet in hopes of what? That his dad will some how see them and say “wow, I was really mean to my kids and now I’m being a jerk to the people in my church too”?
Come on…how likely is that to happen?
How would you react if it was your name and your past being posted up all over? Would you want to run over and embrace your child and invite them to Sunday dinner?
I sure as heck wouldn’t…but…what do I know?
Clearly BG2 wants people to agree with him on his stategy and his recollection of the past. Maybe there’s folks here who are willing to spend their time to do that. Good…I’m sure that’s a noble calling for them.
I don’t wish him or his family any ill will…just the opposite. Hope this time, unlike all the other times we’ve seen, it works…
I don’t have a dog in this fight…apparently you do, so if you feel strongly about standing with this guy based on his side of the story alone, then by all means, do it! Everyone should do what they feel God’s telling them to do in this matter.
Xenia had the right idea I think…
Psalm62,
Sorry to make you bristle but we really do need to stop with our insider vocabulary that I and others call “chritianese”. What Alex and many of us have wrestled with are these religious code words that are full of insular cultural meanings which have evolved into a vocabulary which enslaves others rather than to set them free, which is what I see Jesus intending all throughout the gospels.
Reconciliation is all about living out the Kingdom of Jesus, daily in the hereNow and a big part of it is how we treat others.
London,
You didn’t answer my question. What makes this different? Is it just because it is a son bringing accusations against his father?
London,
I’m going out on a class photo shoot of the Tustin blimp hangars. Will let you know if I get any amazing pix. it’s quite a structure, actually there are 2 of them. I’m trying to figure out how to dress like a real photographer so I can play the part
Nany- Perhaps.
G -
http://www.roumazeilles.net/news/en/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/funny_photographer.jpg
London,
“perhaps” ????
london,
OH, ok, I’ve got the same outfit in blue
Blue is a better color on you anyway
How much do you think all that stuff weighs?
I sometimes feel like that with all the suitcases I carry when I travel.
Please consider what I am going to write carefully before urging Alex to continue this method of attempting reconciliation (I apologize for the length of this in advance). Yesterday, a woman named Wendy submitted this commment:
‘My prayers are with you. I was involved for years in an abusive church, Calvary Chapel San Bernardino, and I wish someone had stood up for me when the pastors told me that my husband was abusing me because I wasn’t “submissive” enough.’
The problem with public forums like this one is that her comment goes unchallenged and, I assume, believed by some. The problem is that what she wrote simply isn’t true! I also know the pastor at CC San Bernardino–he is one of my best friends in ministry. He has faithfully served his flock for more than 30 years without there ever being any tinge of scandal or accusations of wrong doing. He is a great Bible teacher, faithful to declare the Worrd without compromise. Because I know him so well, I know how he grieves over any who leave his church angry or without accepting Jesus. His flock loves him, stands by him and with him, and they are doing a great work. He is not a huge church nor does he aspire to be. He is just a man who loves Jesus, loves God’s Word, and faithfully teaches it. Teaching Eph.5:22 is not abuse and CCSB is not an abusive church. Some of you should have challenged her.
That leads to Alex’s claims. Many on this blog, because of their own experiences, immediately believe any allegation of abuse. But regardless of what we have experienced, we should always be governed by Biblical guidelines. Both sides should be heard before making a judgment and, in the case of a man who chooses not to defend himself in a public forum, prayer is the only appropriate response.
I said yesterday I know Bob well and have contacted him. I pray for a successful resolution to this. But we should all be questioning Alex’s motives for making these accusations. Alex, what do you want to happen? What will a successful resolution be from your perspective? Do you want your dad’s ministry destroyed? And–this is important–what would (in your words) your dad’s perspective be in this? What would he say to your accusations and your role in causing this relationship to be so strained? I know a lot of pastors who no longer have contact with grown kids because of the choices the kids have made. There is standing for righteousness as well as standing in arrogance. If your desire is to hurt your father because you have been hurt, how can any good come from this? If your desire is to be vidincated, cannot Jesus do that for you? There is nothing more difficult than facing allegations that are untrue. If there is any possibility that you are making these things up, or embellishing them, what would you expect your father to say? The more we defend, the guiltier we look.
My e-mail address is ccsaron@aol.com if you want to write me privately, Alex. I will be happy to hear your side of the story but leave out the accusations and rants of people from the other forum who have an agenda or who just don’t like your dad. Every church has people leave because they didn’t get what they wanted. Your accusations lose, not gain, credibility when you go beyond your own, personal issues. I will be speaking with your dad today or tomorrow. I would love to be able to help bring healing but, if that is to happen, you need to be sure your motives are pure, that they aee only to see God glorified.
I’d like to repeat what I said late last night, because I think too many people are taking sides when they should be praying:
The first to plead his case seems right,
Until another comes and examines him.
Proverbs 18:17
Those of us who don’t know the facts should be wary of taking sides until the truth is clear. We’ll do more good by praying.
May God be glorified through this.
***That leads to Alex’s claims. Many on this blog, because of their own experiences, immediately believe any allegation of abuse. But regardless of what we have experienced, we should always be governed by Biblical guidelines. Both sides should be heard before making a judgment and, in the case of a man who chooses not to defend himself in a public forum, prayer is the only appropriate response.***
1. There’s a mass of other people completely separate from Alex accusing Bob of being controlling and abusive.
2. The only reason no one has heard Bob’s side of the story is because he is stonewalling.
3. The fact that Bob is stonewalling strongly indicates that Alex’s allegations are true.
Jessica, that’s bad logic
fyi,
I had conversation yesterday with another CC pastor, who like you, is a friend of Bob’s. While not wanting to roast him openly, his take on it is a bit different than yours…. that is, he hears the multitude of voices and considers that there is a possibility that there is some validity to their joint claims….. and that is where I find my concerns as well……
In the case of the family matters, this isn’t retribution. If Alex is telling the truth, then he rightfully seeks justice….
Jessica -
I say this without having read the other thread, so I am open to being corrected.
Regarding the “mass of other people” - it would seem that is a separate issue entirely than what Alex has brought up. People arguing against the CCV governing structure is of a far different matter than that of potential past child abuse…and it ought to be dealt with separately.
What FYI has done is exactly what I was suggesting early on yesterday in the thread. Someone who is familiar with Bob ought to try to bring he & Alex together to try to bring a God-honoring resolution to this. I was hoping someone here might know Bob well enough to do so, and I’m so grateful for FYI’s willingness to step in.
For my unasked for 2 cents, I’d suggest that we’d leave this subject alone until FYI can do what needs to be done. Especially in light of the comments above about false accusations of abuse, it seems best we hold off on comments until/if the matter is confirmed or rejected, or whatnot.
It would seem that 1 Timothy 5:19-20 comes into play here:
“19. Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.”
Where there is refusal to repent for sin, obviously verse 20 applies…but by all means, let us not pass by verse 19 first.
Jessica,
Your logic is very flawed.
Very, very flawed.
Apply your three points to Jesus before Pilate, and see how they hold up.
And please don’t respond by comparing Jesus and Bob.
I am criticizing your very flawed logic, and that is all.
OK, enough intense fellowship for me today.
Once again everyone, and especially you husbands…
Treat the Bride like you want your bride treated.
Oh - and regarding CC San Bernadino…I have no reason not to think most highly of the Sr. Pastor there. I’ve spoken with people who have attended the church & they loved it. And my (very) limited interaction with the Sr. Pastor has been great.
Amen to the wise council of Pastors Bill W. and Tim.
I’ve been a part of Internet communities since the days of CompuServe and I have seen many tragic appeals that turned out to be either hoaxes or the work of unstable people. One huge Christian forum was in a turmoil for weeks over a woman who claimed she was going to harm her baby because of post-partum depression. Turned out to be a hoax. On another large Orthodox forum many of us were fooled into giving money to a supposed clergyman who, upon closer inspection, was running a pOrn site. And there are other stories I could tell you. As a result, I am cautious to the point of cynicism regarding Internet appeals, especially when all the info is coming from one source. Remember, every story has two sides. We have only heard one side. Should the accused come here to this blog of strangers to justify himself? No, he shouldn’t. Who among us would? Not I.
Even now I know of two people who are claiming, by means of FB and emails, that they were abused when I am about 99.99 percent sure they were not.
What if none of this is true? What harm will have been done to someone’s reputation?
I have an exceedingly difficult relationship with my mother. You will not find me exposing her faults on the Internet. Love covers a multitude of sins and if ever I hope to reconcile with her I don’t want a blogful of accusations made before TOTAL STRANGERS to be an impediment.
Honor thy father and thy mother.
Now it is getting hard to know which thread to post on. Two threads with the same topic.
I will be one who admits to not knowing anything except what I have read here - I have no opinion towards guilt or innocence, and I am skeptical enough in life in regards to authority to know that nothing will come of this.
However, here is where my curiosity leads me. In an instance like this where someone does have a complaint about church leadership, church abuse or whatever you may wish to put in this category - is there a place within the church to register your grievance and TRULY be able to expect a reply?
What I have heard so far was Jim Jacobson saying that even if the allegations are true you should just leave the church swiftly and Bill Walden say “God will take care of it.” Now, are those my options?? I don’t want to leave because it is as much MY church as it is the pastor’s church (unless someone wants to make the claim that the pastor has more territorial rights than I do.) And as far as Walden’s suggestion, how do we know that this isn’t ‘God’s way’ of handling it? or do we just wait for a lightning bolt to strike the pastor for confirmation that God is displeased?
So, all of the accusations and details aside, is there a way at least to have the complaints genuinely heard??
As I said earlier, I am very skeptical.
So I have been away and offline… so someone is being accused of abuse. My question is simple… Who is being accused and who is doing the accusing.. And if they are posting here… come out from behind the pseudonyms just as I have done when dealing with the heat on TH.
I will give no credence to anonymous accusations on this. Yes there have been some who have anonymously spoken before but they did not name the accused. So if we name one we name the other or I do not get into it.
Babs,
The accuser is Alex and he is the pastor’s son
“So, all of the accusations and details aside, is there a way at least to have the complaints genuinely heard??”
That depends if you believe a blog is a way for complaints to be genuinely heard. If so … then it seems at least in some cases blogs are the only place available.
Well that is not enough… Is Alex here? and is this accusation against someone that everyone here is aware of? I will go back and catch up but… is this all being done by ‘alex’ or do we know more?
Dixie,
Read.
Nancy,
No, I don’t mean blogs, I mean within the church - especially the local church.
I will ask any of the pastors here, if someone in your church came to you with a complaint against you, will you hear it without retribution? Are your elders instructed not to act as gate keepers, but to bring these issues to you?
MLD, I can answer for just one church but I would listen to anyone who comes to me with a complaint in a Godly manner. Let me explain briefly:
About 6 years ago, I had a bunch of people try to MT. 18 me because they disagreed with something we were doing. We had/have a free school which takes up a majority of our offerings and they felt a nice building and a national radio program was a better way to use the money. I woke up one day to a web-site committed to insuring that Pastor ___ immediately change the direction of the church. Because of their slander, their method of going from person-to-person to try to cause division, I refused to even talk with them until they repented of their sin. Obviously, they would not so all communication was shut off. They continued to issue demands, wrote letters to CCOF, and urged people to leave our church. (For Jessica) Even though many people I loved, including a couple of my elders, wanted me to address each of their accusations publicly, I refused. I decided to let God defend me and He did a great job. After about 3 months (painful ones) the ring-leader came, asked for forgiveness, stood before the church and said the things he said were lies (his words) and was restored to fellowship. Not one of the other adults swept in by him has ever apologized nor returned. We lost about 50 people in the process and none of them are producing fruit for the Lord, either. A couple of them gave me the e-mail ‘If I did anything to hurt you, I’m sorry’ but clearly didn’t think they had. So, yes, I will be happy to listen to people who handle things in a Godly manner. I will not sit down with people behaving in an ungoldy manner.
MLD -
I can answer from personal experience. I had an instance a few years back when one family in our church had accusations against me that I was being heavy-handed and unfair. I personally brought the person’s accusation to our board & asked them for their honest assessment. In addition, I met with the family & an unbiased 3rd party in our fellowship whose reputation was exemplary.
I’d rather not go into too many details on the blog - but things eventually worked out.
MLD,
Your question to the pastors is a good one … and I know the answer to that question in at least one abusive church. Sadly … there are some that have no other place to go but a blog. This was the only place my story was heard without retribution of some kind.
Xenia, Your 12:17 is spot on. When I was on another forum before coming here there was a huge scam going on for a supposed homeless couple and their dog. I believe money was sent. Someone did their homework and exposed the scam.
I watched a person who was fabricating a huge lie to garner attention. I confronted this person in a kind way and that ended our “friendship” and then I watched as this person slandered me indirectly, knowing full well what they were doing.
I’m not doubting Alex’s story at all. But there are folks who prey on Christians who can be quite gullible and trusting. They’ll burn you out and go on to a new set of friends and repeat the process. Not everyone who holds a sign is a homeless veteran.
As a CC Pastor, I know Pastor Bob and most everyone here. I am very uneasy about all of this being discussed openly. Seeing all of this is defiling and unsettling.
Why?
1) We are probably talking more than praying.
2) This thrills Satan. We are doing his work for him.
3) Only a VERY FEW know both sides of the real story and both sides have very compelling arguments.
4) Both sides are feeling intense pain.
5) The people reading and commenting are neither one of the two sides which leads to…
6) Do not be rash with your mouth, And let not your heart utter anything hastily before God. For God is in heaven, and you on earth; Therefore let your words be few.(Ecclesiaste 5:2)
7) It’s none of my business.
But…the damage has been done. It will be impossible for Bob’s reputation to be restored to normal after these public forums. These words/accusations are irretrievable, and now people “believe” that Bob is in sin and because Bob has been silent, they believe that his silence is condemning him further. Not true.
Bob does not owe us an explanation. Who am I to opinionate when I have not heard his side? Lives hang in the balance over these accusations. Many lives we know not of. Pr 11:13 A talebearer reveals secrets, But he who is of a faithful spirit conceals a matter.
I think it would be wise to shut down this thread before something even worse happens.
MLD- I have my home number in the bulletin and encourage people to call me direcTLy with anything (prayer, suggestions etc.)- I told my elders that I will upset with them if they fail to notify me and I find out after the fact. I want that accountability. They are Jesus’s sheep. Not my sheep. I want Jesus to be pleased with the
care of His sheep. “Good shepherds SHOULD SMELL LIKE SHEEP!”
Let those very very few who are called to issue public rebuke fulfill their calling.
In my experience here over almost 4 years, many have found healing here as well as freedom from the confusion that came from sitting under internally conflicted ministries.
Those who come here seeking justice or judgement have never ever been satisfied.
When those who are not called to bring others to accountability attempt to do just that, their actions actually have the reverse effect of cheapening and diluting true scriptural rebuke.
BH2,
I didn’t say that your words were slander.
Read my posts again.
Slander is falsely accusing.
You may be right, and your dad wrong.
That isn’t my call.
If you are right, then it’s not slander.
If you are inaccurate, it is slander.
My point is that your accusations are undocumented to these many readers. They are not established by the mouth of two or three witnesses who can then follow up with your dad, according to Matthew 18. The only reason to share with witnesses is so that they can follow up in person. Is that going to happen here? Is this the crowd that is called to that?
Some here already believe you based on your tone of voice, and the words you are using. So though you do not intend to bring the results of slander to the group, people are believing reports they cannot verify. Though you do not slander, people now have a low view of your dad, and cannot even know if what you say is true.
As Undercover pastor just said, damage is done. Even if the thread ended now, the collateral damage will go on.
I believe that there is a Nathan for every David.
The PP readership is not the Nathan for your dad.
I cannot imagine that being true.
‘We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not lament.’ Matthew 11:17
Not you necessarily BH2, but some folks will NEVER be satisfied. There is a time to let things go. Please pray about this. I will be praying for you also. For all of it.
Pastor Bill took the words out of my mouth. Better yet, took the words out of God’s mouth and Word. Let’s heed them before we get in trouble.
Matt 18 seems to be a one way street when it comes time to confront evil in the church. It seems like the leadership can go talk to an offending member and follow Matt 18 up to and including, tell it to the church and treat the rascal an an unbeliever.
But, how does it work the other way around? As I said, I have no opinion about the situation at CCV - I have no idea what the truth is and if I were honest, I don’t much care. I have enough of my own headaches.
So, just to use this situation at CCV as a springboard, what if Alex feels that he has appropriately addressed the issue with dad/pastor the best that he was allowed, and then he involved another couple of witnesses, through the elders (if he can’t get to pastor) at what point can he now proceed to “tell it to the church”? If he were to call for a church wide meeting to discuss the issue, would he be out of order? Like I said, if it were working from the top down, there would be no issue and a meeting would be called. If he can’t get an ‘authorized’ tell it to the church, can he then take it to the blogs?
Let’s not use it as a springboard-let’s drop it please. Does this HAVE TO be discussed further?
fyi, I am not comfortable with you as a proposed mediator. I don’t know you and some of your posts here I am not entirely sure about, though I believe you mean well.
I sent my information and asked Pastor Gene Pensiero, CC Hanford, for help (and as a witness) recently. He knows Bob very well. I would be comfortable with Pastor Gene’s help, as he knows all of us pretty intimately.
Raul Ries, David Rosales and Gary Ruff are on Bob’s board at CCV. It makes sense to me that they should be involved.
I emailed them with most everything regarding the child abuse and continuing spiritual abuse on 11/14/09, to date, no response.
There are many other issues they should hear, as part of Bob’s acting board, a board governed by the laws of the State of California and the IRS. I say that, not as a threat, but as a reminder that these are serious issues and ignoring them and playing the “Jesus” defense as Bob is doing (and others on here are connecting the dots Bob wants them to regarding him responding like Jesus) is not a viable option.
These issues must be faced and dealt with, well beyond our “family” issues of abuse. Like I’ve stated (and others have drawn similar conclusions earlier) this is a multi-faceted issue. Lots and lots of layers and no clear cut answer…other than to hash this out with some CC pastors and board or take it to the court system…which is the option I have sincerely resisted and hold out hope is not the answer.
I’ve been encouraged to file a police report, file a civil suit…you name it (by many). I am not afraid of the truth. While the damage to me and my brothers (and many others) has been deep, I still hold out hope that the “church” will clean up it’s own messes.
Bob is not Jesus. Jesus didn’t answer His accusers at the time, because He is JESUS. It was God’s will that He go to the cross. To put Bob in the same sentence as Jesus repulses me. Some of you on here really need to reexamine your words and how your mind is processing these things.
Dansk,”In my experience here over almost 4 years, many have found healing here as well as freedom from the confusion that came from sitting under internally conflicted ministries.
Those who come here seeking justice or judgement have never ever been satisfied.”
those seem like very, very wise words to me…
Undercover,
OK, remove the names to protect the innocent. However, what is your opinion of my scenario? We will call it First Church of the Angels, the pastor’s name is Norm and the accuser is Kobe.
Does Matt 18 work it’s way up from the pewsters to the pulpit or just from the leaders on down?
mld…where does it say that only the leadership can do it?
People can gather together, pray, and en masse, leave.
Or they can do it in twos or threes.
They can re group, pray for a pastor with a right heart, and start over. God will reward them for their efforts in that congregation.
They will have served in faith, and left in faith.
undercover,
you’ve made your point, and to some degree, I concur. But, this isn’t your blog and you are now begining to confirm suspicion….
Bill,
There’s an In-n-Out in Visalia on Moody….
Bill,
You didn’t address, can they call for an authorized churchwide meeting? By that I mean requiring the pastor and the board to be present.
Bill, IMO you are “straining the gnat” and “swallowing the camel.” Times have changed. My witnesses are on this forum and the other forum. Technology is agnostic.
The “gnat” is how perfectly we are following Matt. 18 according to your interpretation. The “camel” is the ongoing sin and wrongdoing, with no resolution.
I’m pretty convinced that Christ would be more concerned about the camel, but that’s just IMO. I am no pastor.
I think, if I’m hearing correctly, what MLD is asking is if Matt 18 is completely applicable to confronting someone in leadership. The passage seems to be more addressed to confronting an “equal”. In confronting leadership, who will have an ongoing authority, is it not true that there are other considerations than just Matt 18? Honest question.
what I really want to know is how do I get rid of this widget (theological word for the day) and get it out of the text?
Bill,
I have watched that over & over again. People leave … sometimes a few at a time … sometimes in large groups. Sadly the seats fill back up and the abuse goes on. I understand the concern for pastors being falsely accused … but what I don’t understand is where is the concern for those still in harms way? If the only way God can protect them is by removing the pastor by some lightning bolt or something … why can’t God just take out the false accusers the same way? Why do you feel the need to warn the one and not the other? Is it just because you can’t imagine God using a blog? It all sounds so much like the hurtful leave quietly and get over it stuff.
Centorian,
I am not confirming anything except to say that we are in over our heads. We are talking about something that does not involve us. I have not spoken to Bob about this. I truly believe that it will be dealt with and my prayer is more effective than my talk. Jesus asked us to talk to Him in the secret place. Have we done that…really? If we have not, then let’s shut our mouths.
Sarah,
You are probably correct about other considerations to Matt 18. However in a church structure like mine, there are options. I know that if I had a complaint against the pastor I could go to our elders and/or the church council and they would have to address it. In the end, I may not like the outcome but I know that I wouldn’t be stonewalled.
However, my first step would be to take my pastor out for a beer to discuss it.
Undercover…speaking for myself, for Michael, for Nomans, for Nancy…those that I know and have discussed this with…we have prayed fervently and continue to. Please do not assume that we have not.
Centy…I remember when we came back up Tim said something about that as did London. He mentioned something that fixed it, but not sure what it was…you know, since I’m on a Mac and don’t have an issue with it
MLD…and there’s some great value in that structure. And probably in the discussion over a beer.
I’m back off to the sidelines.
undercover,
I wasn’t clear, sorry. I am concerned that you are confirming a common concern here of sweeping under the rug…… I’m not accusing ofthat being your intent, I am trying to give you a picture of the message you are beginning to portray.
Sarah,
That is awesome and I join with you. I am not saying you haven’t. In fact, I have to commend Michael for his wisdom. He loves people and God. I love him and I KNOW so many have been greatly encouraged by the PP. Myself incuded!
God’s peace and wisdom on all involved in this…Undercover thank you for your reminder. I’m truly glad you’ve been encouraged by this place!
Okay…really off now!
mld…they can do whatever they want.
I’m not trying to be sarcastic or factitious.
If the pastor and leaders are wholesale out of control, everyone should go to the park and pray for either repentance from the pastor/leaders, or for a new pastor.
I think we automatically defer to leaders in a Matthew 18 setting because they often times have great wisdom, experience, etc. Plus, they can help us do the hard thing, and they might have more recognition amongst the congregation, hence, more persuasive input.
Scripture does say to not entertain an accusation against an elder except by the mouth of two or three witnesses (not accusers without facts)
If a pastor has valid accusations against him, then folks need to approach first the pastor, other leaders in the church.
But if an entire leadership team is going astray, and right steps have been taken through denominational oversight or a CCOF group, why shouldn’t folks just say, “I love you pastor, but I can’t stay here anymore.”
If there is truth in the departure, then Jesus’ sheep will follow Jesus, and not a bad shepherd or leadership team.
If Congregational folks REALLY feel that a pastor is wrong, then follow Jesus and step away, after taking all the right steps, and doing so in love and integrity.
Congregations ask pastors to “come in faith”. They can then, in faith, ask them to leave, or in faith, can themselves leave.
I am not trying to promote hostile takeovers in a church, etc., but I don’t think that church goers have to be victims in their minds. If Jesus is showing you that the pastor is wrong, and the leaders don’t respond, then follow Jesus.
If we get hung up on looking for justice in every situation, we will be frustrated people. Do what we can with right hearts, follow Jesus, and let stuff go.
I dunno…that’s what I think.
BH2….blessings to you. I think we have shared plenty with one another. I will pray for you and your family.
Undercover pastor,
Please heed Cent’s warning.
nancy,
I don’t have all the answers for this church stuff.
You mentioned “why isn’t there concern” for others.
There is, but concern isn’t enough.
Concern has to be coupled with right actions, IMO.
Someone might over react about “getting ignored” by a pastor, find a few people that feel the same, and be very good writers, and destroy a guy online, or at least do damage.
Matthew 18 is clear.
The intent is restoration, through confrontation, not public divulging of one’s sins.
I am all for removing bad pastors, but it ought to be done with right hearts and in God’s way.
The Bible does say that at some point, you let people go, dis fellowship them, “hand them over to Satan”, etc. There is a time to walk away, but some people will never walk away, and will forever seek justice.
MLD,
Matthew 18 isn’t the issue here as much as 2 Timothy 5:16:
“Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicaly so that others may take warning”.
Centorian,
You know me and I am staying incognito, because my heart is in check over all of this. We need to be careful. I knew some would think I was covering for Bob, but I have not even spoken to him. My spirit is a bit heavy because just one side has been shared. His son, a person we don’t truly know, has wielded a heavy sword and has already knocked his dad’s head off. Bob’s reputation has now been irrepairibly tarnished by accusation. BH2’s story breaks my heart and sure, it is possible for it to be true to any degree. All I am saying is - be careful- we are straying into very dangerous territory. It’s time to pray more than talk. God has heard and God will vindicate. He is bigger than any of these things. He doesn’t need us to post comments about it.
Brothers and Sisters,
I am out…I have shared my heart. We all are to live by the bar of our consciences. I will pray for you and I love you guys-You are like a second family to me. Peace to you all and espcially the entire Grenier Family. May God bring healing and restoration to these broken lives. We need Your mercy Lord.
“Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” 2John 1:3
PTI,
Do the bloggers, especially over at the other site, count as witnesses? Here is my point, and I probably have not made it clear enough. Is the pastor EVER required to respond in these situations?
If the witnesses come forward (and I am not speaking of anyone specifically) is the pastor required to respond or can he just ignore it and call the pewster incorrigible etc or do the pewster have options other than leaving - like running him out of town and calling a new pastor?
Michael,
You must be somewhat convinced of the validity of these accusations or you wouldn’t have even allowed this thread to begin with.
However I would caution you to proceed with caution and do not allow this great blog to be a resting place for gossip and slander.
I know you know that but some of the ancillary attacks that have surfaced here (ie - Pastor John Miller and CC San Bernardino) should be moderated with great scrutiny otherwise you are allowing your blog to be a breeding ground of malice.
General criticism and storytelling like what happens on the City of Refuge or Why I left CC threads is good and appropriate but specific allegations must be well founded before they should be allowed to remain on this blog.
Undercover Pastor, call Bob then and quit commenting.
I don’t believe I’ve knocked Bob’s head off, I believe he’s knocked his own head off via his own sin and improper handling of these issues (to date).
“He is bigger than any of these things. He doesn’t need us to post comments about it.”
No offense, but that’s a pretty wish-washy statement, IMO.
Either get involved, or sit it out. You seem to be pretty convinced that discussing it on here is the wrong thing, so if God has put that on your heart, then go with it.
The “be careful” and “dangerous territory” comments are manipulative IMO and common when people try to hash these things out with regards to a pastor.
You say you know Bob, so call him and get his side of it. Tell him he needs to sit down and deal with this. What is with all the danger drama (seriously)?
You are so casual and gracious toward Bob about alleged abuse, yet so critical about me telling the story and people discussing it on here. It doesn’t add up to me. Be as gracious to those who wish to tell the story and discuss the issues, as to giving Bob the benefit of the doubt. What about the benefit of the doubt for the victims?
Undercover, thanks for your prayer and concern. I know it’s genuine and apologize if my previous post was perceived as contrary to that. I am not questioning your motives.
“You are so casual and gracious toward Bob about alleged abuse, yet so critical about me telling the story and people discussing it on here.”
That was my observation as well. It appears to be a pattern I have seen for some time … in other situations as well. Lots of warnings that appear to be slanted towards expecting those who may very well be very wounded to be perfect in all they do … while extending a great measure of grace towards the accused pastors. If a person seems angry … the warnings about being bitter start … people are told to pray as if they hadn’t already done so … and so on. All good warnings but still there doesn’t seem to be the same measure of grace given to the one that very well may have been badly wounded and is doing what they can to prevent it from happening to others. Seems at times the pastors themselves are more protected than those they are called to protect. Hopefully it isn’t the intention … just the way it seems.
it has been cautioned here that all is not necessarily black and white…
my mind this afternoon went waaay back - a cute little 5 year old boy used to ring my doorbell every afternoon and lie like crazy. He would spend about 5 or 10 minutes spinning his tale of the day. He would not be dissuaded, he was driven to convince me and after he had finished he’d say, “well, that’s all - I gotta go now.” I’ve since learned that this not an uncommon phenomena in little boys of that age. To them it’s truth. Could little 5 year old Alex have been one of those little tale tellers? Could he, unknowingly have set his parents up? Did they think that they had a problem that had to be dealt with? Sad all around if so… and my only point is that raising a child is not simple and parents can be myopic and do terribly wrong things out of desperation. Still wrong and sad.
for the first 9 or 10 years make-believe can be reality for a child. My youngest had a ‘real’ imaginary friend and it was spooky.
well, that’s all I have to say - gotta go now
Nancy, I agree. That is what I have experienced (and am experiencing).
The graciousness is carefully and selectively applied (often).
The pastors, IMO, have plenty of support, it is the victims who often need the advocate (not saying pastors aren’t falsely accused, but come on, are they ALWAYS falsely accused?).
The victims are often at a distinct disadvantage as the pastors can be quite effective at wielding the “fiery darts” “attack from the devil” “don’t gossip” “they aren’t following this or that properly” etc etc, both privately to their board, members etc. and publicly from the pulpit.
People, in my experience, are quick to believe the pastor and quick to shun the victims, buying into the “evil doer” defense. The victims get cut off and isolated. The pastor rides it out and the victims leave, broken, disillusioned…I’ve seen it, I’m living it, it’s wrong (in many of the first-hand cases I’ve witnessed).
I’ve watched Bob ruin a lot of people who were once trusted staff members and associate pastors. People, who when they hadn’t challenged Bob, were “Godly” and examples of “Christ working through them” etc. Then after they challenged Bob, they were suddenly “evildoers” “emissaries of the devil” etc.
These poor people were ruined. Bob had quite an advantage. That’s why it is hard for me to accept the criticism of pastors on here who claim “wielding a heavy sword” and “give Bob the benefit of the doubt” etc.
Bob needs to man up and deal with this and quit feigning the “Jesus defense”…it’s not for the right reasons.
I did get a call from Pastor Gene and Gary Ruff has agreed to talk with me (both are CC pastors). I’m hopeful and will pursue that now.
Everyone, please pray…but be prepared to do, as well, if it is required of you.
Well, it’s not quite all I have to say. It has been said repeatedly here…
The only concern to be aired in public - repeat in public - is the question of pastoral abuse of the congregation and the office IMNSHO
BH2,”Bob needs to man up and deal with this and quit feigning the “Jesus defense”…it’s not for the right reasons.
I did get a call from Pastor Gene and Gary Ruff has agreed to talk with me (both are CC pastors). I’m hopeful and will pursue that now.”
am praying that this will have a good outcome and give you some piece
Psalm62,
5? How about 10, 15, 20? Lots of abuse in the 10-18 year-old range. The worst was in Jr. High and High School. Memories are crystal clear, like HD DVD.
Two other brothers with the same story. Many others who saw things and my bro #2 is convinced will testify (if it got to that level).
Why is he “Bob” and not “Father”?
He is dad.
That’s what I call him, but it’s been so long since I’ve been allowed to speak to him, I started calling him Bob for clarification on the other forum (and I have another dad, my biological father, who has rekindled a little bit of a relationship with me) so I guess that’s why. He is Bob, my dad who raised me. Still my dad.
Left a message for Gary Ruff a little earlier. Hopeful.
Oh… I understand now. I too had an abusive stepfather-but really he was the only father I knew from the time I was 3. Nothing will stop you from loving your parents–nothing–no matter how abusive. We long to be accepted, valued, no matter, we love our father and mothers against all sane judgements. I reconciled with my father a year before he died, but I do not believe he understood the damage he had done to me thru the years of emotional and physical abuse. I only forgave him when the Lord spoke to me, after seeing him a broken and lonley old man, ” so I have love you, who were broken in your own sins.”
I am ” a poor soul” who rarely posts on this forun any longer, but reads, hoping to find some things that will comfort me. I am a broken and hurting person, I am crippled in ways that no one can see. Like I have an arm or leg missing, and only I know it. You must feel this way too, and you have my prayers. I don’t know if this forum will serve that end. Best to commit yourself to the One who knows all and cares for you deeply, deeply. But do as you must my friend.
Love, in the end, covers a multitude of sins.
Thanks for sharing that Curious.
“Nothing will stop you from loving your parents–nothing–no matter how abusive. We long to be accepted, valued, no matter, we love our father and mothers against all sane judgements.”
So true, for me, too. You have my prayers also. I think I understand what you feel and have gone through. May God be your “Father” as well.
BH2, I understand what you are trying to convey to all of us and your love of the Lord in the face of it all is a testamant to faith and grace meeting in the Believer
my little story was not meant to trivialize what you’ve been through, but to say that, sometimes, parenting goes off the rails out of misunderstanding and desperation - the man you’ve described has serious issues, no doubt
I do wish you ‘peace’ not ‘piece’ BTW
and I must repeat, even though your childhood memories break my heart and the City of Refuge here is designed for broken hearts like yours, doesn’t it seem that only the present church leadership problem could possibly find resolution here? … IMO and praying
I’m really just a passer-by/sidewalk superintendent here myself
God bless you too Broken Hearted 2, may our Father comfort us and all who mourn and bring us to that time when our lives and hearts are not fractured, but whole.
FYI
My post from yesterday was the complete truth, however it was not the head pastor who made the statement about me not being submissive enough. I went for counseling to one of the assistant pastors because my husband was physically abusing me. His first comment to me was that I wasn’t really abused because I wasn’t beaten to a bloody pulp. He then told me it was MY FAULT that if I was submissive to my husband, he wouldn’t be aggravated with me. I was also told by another pastor at that church that I couldn’t leave my husband because he hadn’t committed adultery and that it would harm my children to come from a divorced family. My husband may not have committed adultery, but how about the on-going sin of abuse? How about not loving his wife as Christ loved the church? How about the harm that would come to my children by seeing an abusive relationship?
I knew then that I would receive no help from the church and had to help myself. The same pastor who told me that the abuse was my fault, also said that I was never saved if I could go through a divorce. All I wanted was help and these people turned their backs on me and ostracized me.
Do NOT presume to say that my post wasn’t true, I lived it and still bear the scars from from that experience.
Bill, where does Jesus tell folks to leave their church fellowships in Scripture?
I cannot find it in Rev.2 and 3. I cannot find it in the pastoral epistles or the gospels or even in Acts 20 where Paul addresses the elders of Ephesus.
Yes, they could gather in the park and pray. But maybe they do not think like you and I; the measure of grace appointed unto them does not afford them the mindset of spiritual entrepeneurship that you or I find rather easily. They may be confused; should they be blamed for the confusion?
What if Jesus is at work in their church in spite of this and they stay and learn to speak up?
As I have made an effort to try and read the whole counsel for the whole issue here is my conclusion.
It is His church. Because it is His church it becomes “their” church by birthright and by virtue of their fellowship with Him. It is “our” church as pastoral leaders only in the sense that we are fellow brothers and disciples. We serve the people in their churches as stewards of His church.
Your input may be challenged by me but nevertheless considered and still valued.
Victorious, I agree.
I’ve witnessed at CCV that when the offering bags were passed around, it was everyone’s church. There was a sense of community. The cafe, different fellowship opportunities, the nice surroundings…often emphasized…and emphasized in the context of that everyone at CCV benefits from it and is encouraged to participate in it. Everyone is part of the CCV “family”…
When someone spoke up and challenged something (often times) suddenly they didn’t have much say, if any. Their recourse? Go your way, pray about it, keep quiet…often, unfortunately, on what they thought would be amicable terms…however, Bob often didn’t hold up his end of the bargain. Those who left were often over-sensitive to keep quiet and “not harm the church”…while Bob would backbite them terribly and call them all kinds of things…”evildoers” etc.
Again, a consistent theme I’ve witnessed…lots of grace for the pastor, not much for the “evildoer”…though the victim of the spiritual abuse would act more Christ-like in the matter than Bob, and he’s the pastor.
Pastors on this forum, I’m sure it is uncomfortable for some of you to hear these things. Don’t let the devil through the pride door. You’re not a “prophet of God” (Bob and some of his inner circle call him that) and you don’t have some special dispensation. If you do, give us all a specific prophecy and we’ll see…
This mindset gets you all in trouble. You’re men. Fallible, imperfect. That’s OK, just don’t act like you aren’t (and many of you don’t, but some out there do as witnessed by all the examples of hurt people).
If someone approaches you and challenges you within the church that God has given you stewardship over, be gracious and sensitive. Err on the side of going the extra mile to make sure that person is helped. If you can’t help them, keep trying. You guys are the pastors. Why such a low standard for some of you?
Aren’t you “shephards” of God’s flock:
Matthew 18:
11For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Shouldn’t you guys care more about that one sheep that may have challenged you (whether they are right or wrong)? If you have a “shephard’s heart” as a pastor, then you can’t say you do and then ignore these types of verses. If you don’t have a true “shephard’s heart” then go do something else. There are lots of jobs out there for controlling people who are good public speakers. Be an attorney.
A lot of what I’ve grown up with and witnessed within the church is not right…hopefully things will change.
BH2
Go sue the man. Get a settlement and get some justice.
Otherwise….
I have to confess … when reading Bill’s meet in the park idea I had the funniest mental picture of me hunting for a park with comfortable benches … and close enough bathrooms for my 87 year old mom. Have to admit … the park idea sounded rather nice for a second … heroic and romantic even. But the reality of the picture that quickly came to mind burst that bubble.
Ummm … one more problem … not everyone lives in southern CA. It’s cold here already … and getting colder.
BD, I’ve had similar advice. Isn’t that wrong, Biblically?
I don’t have a peace about it, I’ve considered pressing charges for the child abuse, a civil suit, filing a complaint with the IRS, etc.
Is that the right way to handle these matters? Isn’t it best to try and handle it through “the church?”
I believe there could be a relationship if Bob repents through help from “the church”…I don’t think there would be much left after pursuing one of those routes.
I don’t believe I’ve “wielded a heavy sword” as someone else critiqued earlier, by trying to hash this all out amongst the church.
I’m not so sure it wouldn’t be wielding too heavy a sword going one of those other routes…
BH2
NO… it is not… we have no apparatus for such things. Is it unbiblical? Make me laugh… you show me a church authority structure that will hear your case and give you justice and I will say yes.
Airing it in public is exactly the same as going to court.
Sue him.
what have unbelieves to do in our disputes? Why do you rather not have yourselves wronged? — I seem to remember somewhere reading, by Paul himself. I lost all heart for these discussion at the hands of Dread and others. Their intellect is not my own–I suffer for my lack of education.
You can only go before a court of believers when someone has an authority over them to whom they must answer. Unless I am mistaken and I have not read this all… this man is answerable to no one.
Airing in public is not exactly the same as going to court..
You don’t realize that? What legal recourse results from this blog?? I have no wish to fight with the mighty intelect of Dread, but Huh??
BD, that appears to be the case, there is no real accountability structure in place. And those who are in some kind of position, don’t seem to care (though we’ll see how Gary Ruff handles this…)
I’ve been hurt, suffered a lot…the only remedy to date is “go pray about it”…many on here, have the same attitude. Go away and keep on praying and “you’re being vindictive, immature, it’s a private family matter etc. etc. and God isn’t pleased by all this discussion” and “be careful” “danger” etc. when these issues are brought up for church discussion and “tell it to the church.”
The local CCV option is a giant impermeable stone wall…as I, and many others, have experienced.
Your points are well taken.
The idealist in me says to keep on trying to deal with this through the church, things can get resolved. The realist side of me prepares for a very disappointing outcome.
Yes–I answered too quickly,,,Dread this man is answerable to no one, as is every other pastor reading. Some might think they are answerable, but where is this seen in practice?? IMOO
Curious
Ok it was a little abstract but follow me.
We are too ‘biblical’ to sue someone but we air our accusation out in a public forum where being accused is often the equivalent of being guilty.
At least in a court you both have an opportunity to answer and are compelled to answer.
I believe accusing people publicly of things is the moral equivalent of suing them. We at least have the satisfaction of getting a public opinion judgment against someone …which I believe is equally unbiblical to suing.
Refusing to sue is not noble when you are ruining someone publicly.
And as for the church hearing a matter …as I say there must be an apparatus… else that is meaningless.
So, BD, you believe that what I’m doing on here is unbiblical? Equal to suing? So I might as well press formal charges and sue, since I’ve gone on here and dealt with it publicly, even though I believe it is “telling it to the church?”
Do you have scriptural support?
BD, what would you have done differently if you were in my shoes?
Not dealt with it? Gone my way and lived the rest of my life without half my family? Turned a blind eye to all those on the other forum who shared their stories with me (people I know)? Not disclosed impropriety that I witnessed, and impropriety that was reported to me by credible sources?
If there isn’t an apparatus through the church, and going public is the equivalent of suing…and both of those things are “unbiblical”…then what is the solution?
Yeah Dread, it is hard for me to follow you, you arrogant brother you, but you are right, even I see that– what is the appartus?? What keeps all of this from being meaningless, especially for the people hurting?
You make me think, and I swore not to post and only to read, but you are right, refusing to sue is not right if one is ruining someone publically. What is the answser???
I made a choice from the time I found PP that I would not weigh in on guilt or innocence of anyone. I never came to the defense of any pastor even if I was close enough to the situation and knew the truth.
My reason for coming here was a hope that I could be a source of healing to the wounded. I did this because I have been the victim and the villain. Having been a CC pastor for a long time, I know for a fact that I was the source of wounding of people. I firmly believe that I did the right thing, and that the wounds I caused were unavoidable and they were the wounds of a friend and the acts of a faithful pastor who was doing his best to follow what the Bible commands us to do and I always had to goal of restoration in sight. But I was the pastor and it was part of my calling to carry out Church Discipline. I know that a few of those wounded by my attempts to obey the word and carry out discipline have long stories to tell about how horrible I am. And I have been accused of just about everything you can be accused of.
I could have easily been the object of many a thread on PP about how horrible I am — I am just fortunate that those who hate me didn’t find this blog before I did.
I figured out the hard way that once the accusations and rumors begin, that I cannot even attempt to defend myself or do or say anything that won’t just ad fuel to the flames. So I decided years ago, that when I was accused of anything, to remain silent and let the Lord defend me.
and Like Dread said, there is no one to appeal to even for the accused pastor. So when a pastor is wrongly accused by fellow pastors, there is no where to turn.
———————–
I have also been unjustly shown he door by those in charge of CC more than once. I have been deeply wounded by those in authority in the church.
Now I find myself once again on the side of suffering a new wounding. The recent issue I went though I can’t even go into, except to say it hurts just as bad this time as it did the first time. I wish I could get a calloused heart, and not be wounded, but I am wounded again.
in my current situation if I share what happened, the knee jerk defense reaction blows my mind. The people in CC are conditioned to not even entertain the possibility that the pastor/elder/”they who ever they are” just might be in the wrong. The automatic “he must not know about this” or “to he must know something we don’t” to “touch not my anointed” To all the rest of the rationalizations.
I have been shown the door of the CC movement for the last time. I really am finished with all things CC this time. I am done, enough is enough and I’ve had enough.
I will support those wounded, without taking sides against the guilty and without defending the guiltless. Because the CC system itself is the only thing I am confident is to be blamed. At the end of the day there is no one in CC to appeal to.
Who’s in charge? At this point I don’t even know who “THEY” are. I know that “they” really don’t care if people are hurt, or I guess I should say they have such a long long developed habit of rationalizing all they do, and somehow “they” got it in their heads that those in power can’t be wrong therefore “they” cannot be wrong by virtue of the fact that they have the power, and , so in a situation like the one being danced around here today I don’t belive I would get involved. I think Dread might be right, not that I recommend it, but there is no other authority to appeal to. So It’s do nothing, or go to court.
So I am both the guilty pastor and in innocent victim I need the City of Refuge twice as much as some here, I need a safe hiding place. And I am thankful for all Michael has attempted here.
BD, you scrambling through your concordance?
BH2
I said what I believe. If you cannot go on with your life, if you cannot get reconciled to your family, then go to a court and get a ruling. When Paul wrote what he did about suing one assumes that an apostle or a local church leader could decide such disputes. The Biblical answer if you believe Paul’s ancient words are binding on you, is to suffer the wrong for the sake of Christ.
I would have no problem with you proving your case in court. NONE. Involving a lot of people who have opinions but no authority is certainly as unbiblical as suing.
Blogging an offense is not ‘telling the church’ AND the telling of the church assumes that the telling is done by authorities of the church.
The real problem here is one of authority. People who serve systems that allow them to be unaccountable cannot call for those UNDER them to stay out of court.
BD, thanks for your input.
Stone me if you will…. but I’m ready for a link-a-thon!
BH2,
BD and Deadmanwalking are good and wise men.
Consider their counsel carefully…I do.
I will show my cynicism here. Regardless of the issue, whether it be this one or all of the others we have looked at over the years, I am totally against the grieved parties having to exit because that just leaves all of the assets with the pastor. If he is at fault, let him leave, get his taxi driving job and let us have our church.
Well, that is enough for me. Reading DeadmanWalking’s post makes me put my hand over my mouth. As ” a poor soul” I a few times posted, was not well recieved and so retired. I have always felt that DeadManWalking ministered to me in a way that no others did . I felt that you John were the Pastor I could learn from and you ministered to this Jewish woman’s heart for the last three years as no one else has.
Reading your post, in that Dread is right and there is not other authority to appeal to, except to do nothing or go to court, I reiterate my last sentence to the son, sometimes all there is left is this, that love covers a multitude of sins. I too need the the City of Refuge, I won’t make the mistake of posting again. Thank you to Michael too.
Plus Corinth was a pagan city, with Roman government and Greek culture.
The American system though quickly becoming paganized has its roots in Judeao/Christian values.
As for Paul’s admonition to avoid suing… well here goes
1. We have very little background on the context or outworking of Paul’s solution to get a judgement before believers.
2. Paul was not Moses and his Epistles are not a new law code for us
3. You have an accusation …it is not the accused alone who will not hear you. It is the elders, it is the church itself that will not hear you.
4. You need a wisdom that takes all of this into account. Michael was curbing himself lest the ‘accused’ lawyer up and come sue him.
You really need to understand that I am not really decrying you for speaking out. I am decrying the fact that you will not DO something that will get a result for the good of ALL at the same time.
Both he and you deserve the justice of a public hearing where people are accountable… you to tell the truth and him to make it right and tell the truth himself.
Curious
Your postings did no harm and provoked a great amount of good.
Curious,
God bless you…feel free to stay or speak anytime you want to.
“Both he and you deserve the justice of a public hearing where people are accountable… you to tell the truth and him to make it right and tell the truth himself.”
You have almost persuaded me…I need to think this through.
It seems as though MLD is being ignored. I think he makes a very valid point. The problem with the CC system is that the leadership has all the power. Why should the victim have to go to the park and pray and wait for justice to happen? Isn’t it their church as much as it is the pastors? Aren’t we all equal in the sight of God? If leadership is in err, let them go to the park!!! But who do the sheep at CC appeal to? The board of elders? It never seems the pastor, if caught in transgression, is brought to task or ever asked to leave. Only if the sheep don’t like it, they can leave! Way too much power is given to the pastor in the CC system.
Michael, “BH2,BD and Deadmanwalking are good and wise men.
Consider their counsel carefully…I do.”
I suspect many reading the thread were thinking the same thing - I was… and I could not imagine better hearts and wiser heads - even if I do think that they are a little soft sometimes
God bless the men who counsel here - and He will!
God keep all close and comforted tonight
My postings did no harm?? I am not even sure why I percieve your every remark as condecending in the extreme. I readily acknowledge the logic of your arguements above. They are worthy of consideration, even as Michael mentioned, along with John’s, but I belive john walks in an abundance of humlity due to what he has suffered. Of course I am not making a comment on what you have suffered for the cause of Christ, but John knows and has compasssion for fellow travellers, I don’t think I have seen that in most of your postings Dread.
whoa…… been out for some time missed a boat load….. I’ve been out getting my backside kicked by former members…. yes I’m accessible mld……. today I wish I wasn’t…….
haven’t wanted to say it BH2, but the courts may be your only real recourse…………. as much as I disagree with him in many areas, dread is right…… it seems that civil suits are our only recourse……. it’s not what honors God, but then again how much we do these days do? so wth……. to quote dread:
” Is it unbiblical? Make me laugh… you show me a church authority structure that will hear your case and give you justice and I will say yes.”
dmw,
“Because the CC system itself is the only thing I am confident is to be blamed. At the end of the day there is no one in CC to appeal to.”
yes and no. Too busy licking my own wounds right now to formulate a good response… Men are the builders of systems and to lay this upon those men…. well…. a bit too far, my brother… Perhaps starting out in a mainline denomination gave a different perspective on church polity and ethics than those who know only Calvary.
undercover,
anyway I hope I conveyed myself accurately and you understand I wasn’t looking to take your head off. call me if you like……..
I have two guesses who you are….
couch! what up? following you some on fb………….
Curious- Are you the same person who was posting here before under that name??
Now if Dread and DMW had showed up say like… yesterday!
I have to think many who have been dropping by to read are very close to the situation. Lord willing a positive outcome will result. It’s been an interesting two days.
Curious, Sharing your heart is taking a risk, but you belong here, I think - it is good to post your thots even when no one validates them or takes exception - someone else (lurking) may be blessed.
now I’ll call it a day … praying for all tonight
Much wisdom being shared here tonight.
Well, I knew London would get in the mix to support her buddy Dread–I clearly stated that I was ” a poor soul” and the last time I left was because of this–the defending of one’s friends on the blog. I have NEVER posted under curious before until now. I was simply’curious’ as to why BrokenHearted called his father Bob instead of father. I had a stepfather since I was three, but he was always Daddy to me and not “Joe”. I simply wondered at the usage, thinking that might have created some distance in Brokenhearteds story.
Curious,
I am very glad you posted … each thing you added has been helpful and good.
Michael and BH2,
Both of you will be in my prayers. Although I no longer feel alone with regards to the pain I suffered from my experience at CC, I’m not sure I’ll be back here. Maybe the healing for me hasn’t progressed as far as I thought it had - my heart and my soul were wounded deeply at basically being called a liar by FYI. My only motive in being here was to find healing and validation.
God Bless
Curious- two things:
1) I will “support my buddy Dread” every single time.
2) There was someone that used to post under the name “Curious” so I just was seeing if you were the same person.
Wendy,
stick around.. everyone, even pastors, can get a little touchy when they think their friends are being attacked….. and you’ll find out that fyi isn’t all that bad of a guy
I think the sad reality is … as Deadmanwalking has shared … the CC system … if there even is such a thing … is too flawed to handle anything. The local church belongs to the sr pastor … that in itself … as MLD has pointed out … is a problem. So … as Dixie(Dread) has pointed out … the court is really the only option left. Unless you want to hang out in a park and pray while others continue to be in harms way … naa … not a real option in my view. Hmmmm … Much to think about.
Centorian,
Thanks, I guess my heart still hurts. To have my pain and experiences discounted and to be told what I went through wasn’t true, brought back alot of stuff I thought I had dealt with.
There is a woman who rarely posts who goes by just curious.
Wendy, You shouldn’t leave over one comment. There may be much for you here. I will say that folks have dropped by and stated things that were not true. The reality is anyone can come here and say whatever they want about someone and who’s to know?
I believe maybe that is what fyi was alluding to?? It wasn’t an attack on you as much as it was a red flag for all of us to be discerning.
I hope you and curious both stick around. This has been a very charged few days. God bless you both.
wendy,
there’s parts of me that I don’t think will ever be healed this side of eternity…….. but I keep pressing towards the prize
London, I just deleted a very snarky post to your post about supporting your friend Dread “every single time”.
I quickly realized by the pain in my heart that I wished I had such a friend. Carry on.
Erunner,
I understand your point about being discerning, and yes anyone can say anything, whether it’s true or a lie.
It’s taken me a long time to speak out about what happened to me, and it’s been a long healing process. Like I said previously, to basically be called a liar by someone who didn’t even bother to ask me about my experience because he’s “friends” with the leadership at that church, is discouraging and painful. It’s not easy for me to share myself with people I don’t know, so maybe for now I’ll keep my mouth shut and just observe.
And by the way Centorian you are correct in your response to Wendy, there are some wounds that will only be healed by His embrace in heaven.
Wendy,
I still get a tummy ache when I read someone say the only option is to leave … and do it quietly. No matter how lovely & creatively it is written or said … it still hurts. Still feels like a slap … as if I should hide what happened to me as if it was my fault. The abuser deserves to be protected until God strikes him down. As for me … and the others who have been wounded ???? … no protection needed because there are plenty of other churches … or a park.
centorian,
i understand that feeling, and all we can do is press forward and trust and believe that our healing will be complete when we enter eternity.
Wendy & Curious,
I hope you both stick around.
Wendy, sorry to hear about what you went through. Praying for you and doing something…speaking out for some change within CC:
You should’ve been afforded the opportunity to have a sit down with the jr. pastor and been able to tell your side of things…and as pastors, they should have gone the extra mile to bring a resolution to your grievances, with someone above the jr. pastor as an honest-broker.
The balance is out of whack, IMO. There needs to be some sort of venue for someone like Wendy to have a proper chance at some resolution. So much time spent in other efforts by the church, what about this “one lost sheep” (lost meaning cast aside, not in her church home anymore, disconnected from fellowship). Isn’t she at least as important as the other 99, or even more?
Churches spend all the time and effort “saving” people, what about keeping some of the ones you’ve got?
This whole man / woman issue is beginning to bother me, too. What is with Ephesians 5 and the CC’s? IMO, there is a problem there (from my experiences). Is this common?
Nancy,
I know that tummy ache feeling well.
BTW, so much for me shutting my mouth and just observing *sigh*
Wendy,
Our stories … and input are important. Though it’s been tried many times to convince me otherwise … I’m sure keeping quiet about abuse is wrong.
BH2,
Thanks for your prayers and for speaking out. While my experience was not the same as yours, the wound was deep. And as centorian said, there are some wounds that won’t be healed this side of heaven. My prayers will be with you.
no broken, it is not common.
Calvary Chapel is what it is….. we are the good, the bad, the ugly, the indifferent, the passionate, the legalist, the compassion heart, the lover of God, the hater of evil, the intelligent, the ignorant, the fragrance of life and the fragrance of death, and the fragrance of what bulls do after they eat…….. the kool-aid drinker, the drinker of Living Water, the borderline Calvinist, the hardcore Armenian, the charismatic, the borderline cessationist………
we are independent churches. you will find us in all flavors…. so don’t broadbrush us…..
Agreed Centorian. Agreed.
Deadmanwalking,
It was good to see you here tonight. Your post is very sad and rings very true. You have been … and will remain in my prayers.
Thanks Curious.
Stick around. You may find some of those types of friends here yourself.
Perhaps I will London…thanks
Centorian,
While I agree with your last post in part…certainly there are many different viewpoints/personalities within CC.
I don’t think the movement is as diversified as we think it is. CC pastors speak a common language and hold pretty common values in just about every area of ecclesiology. CC teaching is pretty predictable…CC praxis is almost cookie cutter.
CC as a whole does not encourage us to be well read…certainly some of us are but most of us never went to college and have never read much outside of the accepted authors that agree with CC theology.
Our aversion to Reformed teaching has cut us off from some of the best scholars available and our refusal to even explore other ideas regarding the eschaton has kept us from learning from great theologians who might hold different but very important viewpoints.
I can’t even begin to tell you how much my eyes have been opened to the whole of Scripture since I’ve been reading outside of the accepted CC circles.
Wendy, I was hurt deeply in a CC which led to my departure. It was difficult leaving a church where you know everyone and have attended for many years. My wife and I did church via the internet for some time before we found a church.
We were fortunate in that Oden Fong was our Pastor for a year before God led us elsewhere. Oden modeled grace and humility like nobody I have ever met. Genuine doesn’t begin to describe him. I needed that very much.
Oden has suffered slander and lies like no one I have ever known and to see how he handles it can’t help but be a blessing. If you were near Huntington Beach I’d say to visit his church.
I believe I grew very thick skin from my early days here and God was gracious in allowing me to come through a negative experience pretty much intact.
I pray you would experience God’s healing touch in a way you dare not imagine. His people mess up all of the time. Some with malice and others with none. Yet God is our refuge, a very present help in time of trouble. God bless.
Right or wrong,
No matter what,
it stinks to be Bob right now.
Erunner,
When I left CC, I was lost and alone and abandoned by all of my christian “friends”. I ended up wandering in my own desert for years, until I recently found a wonderful pastor and church. There are less than 100 people, most are old enough to be my grandparents, but they have welcomed me and make me feel like I am family. I truly believe God is using these wonerful people to minister his healing love to me.
I do know who Oden Fong is and I’m actually really close to Huntington Beach, but being out of the church loop for so long, I know nothing about what happened to him. (Maybe that’s a good thing)
Thanks for your prayers and kind words, and as with others here, i will keep you and your wife in MY prayers.
Just a sheep,
May I ask what you believe is going to happen to Bob? If this situation turns out like others I have seen … no worries for Bob at all. He will still be in place as pastor … and the seats will be full. Those who have left will pretty much be forgotten. Are you aware of something changing? If it stinks to be Bob … how so?
justified,
well perhaps it’s because I live on the back side of a mountain in a town most have never heard of…. however……..
I have friends (pastors)in the movement who are well read…… and I would say that is the majority of the guys I interact with. There were about ten of us at a recent fellowship meeting at a seminary….. most who are relatively unknowns and yet some of the best and brightest we have…. as a friend of mine says, they are an untapped resource.
you might be surprised to see my library, even more so the church’s bookstore where I purchased some of the books…. Calvary Distribution does a good job offering good books from solid authors that are not always in line with what would be considered a Calvary Chapel view…. they are far from a kool-aid stand.
Centorian,
CC has many bright and educated men - but overall it is not encouraged to be well rounded theologically. Most CC pastors would cringe if you said you were reading from amil or Reformed sources.
I’ve been around CC for a long time…I’ve also been around other movements. Trust me when I say we aren’t well read…trust me. I graduated from CCBC…while I’m happy for my time spent there most of the classes were nothing more than running commentaries in books of the Bible.
Calvary D does a fine job but it isn’t diversified at all. I’ve been ordering from there for years…I know it well.
justified,
I’ve been in church almost 50 years, a christian for over 40…
I didn’t start out Calvary chapel; my first exposure was in a circus tent. I think I have a broad enough exposure to know what I’m talking about.
My son graduated from CCBC. I’m aquainted with their cirriculum and I was happy when he went to Germany to study under Guzik.
Centorian,
You needn’t get defensive. I am not attacking you. I’m simply asserting that CC is not very broad or diverse.
Of course there are exceptions - but they prove the rule. For every Dave Rolph or Bill Ritchie there are one hundred men who are completely content reading Papa Chuck, Wiersbe, and McGee.
That isn’t pejorative; CC’s tagline is simply teaching the Bible simply.
Just compare the teaching at a CC Senior Pastor’s Conference (to which I’ve been to many) to the teaching at other conferences - beyond stroking Pastor Chuck and talking about how awesome CC is there is very little substance…and very little gospel I would add.
I’m not defensive. there is just another calvary chapel out there than the one you describe.
as far as your comment on the SPC:
” beyond stroking Pastor Chuck and talking about how awesome CC is there is very little substance…and very little gospel I would add.”
I would have to agree with you.
nancy,
This is hard on any person,pastors are people to.imagine your name being all over the place like this.one thing is for sure he and his step son are estranged that stainks as well.It hurts to have people want to see you out of the ministry, weather you should be out or not.if it is chastening it is unpleasent (stinks while it happens.If persucution ouch that stinks.
If just some of this is true it will likley be exposed for all to see.Things have changed for Brian M and Joe S and they are not the only ones.Bob is the one under the gun, Pastors get ulcers and suisides among clergy is on the rise, there was a recent usa today artical on it.Where bh2 is at is a stinky place as well.My prayer is for all and that Juctice would prevail and mercy would truimph.
curious
I have no idea why you took me to task … I was simply saying that you posting was welcomed.
Whatever your beef is with me has nothing to do with this issue and I do not believe I was condescending in any way.
I am still kind of stunned here about a certain commonality in these CC deals.
Why the celebrity ‘outside’ board members?
At OHC when Skip brought in Gino, Raul, Franklin, Paul and Greg to replace our members as the board, I remember Skip saying he did this because only his friends could hold him accountable. He made a special point that church members could not hold him accountable.
Then we found out that no one could hold him accountable. I am afraid the situation is identical in this case. These pastors with the “outsiders” boards are loose cannon.
I know that most of the CC pastors who participate here are just small potatoes in the CC system and cannot attract the attention of the ‘celerity’ pastors to be on their boards - but can anyone offer a defense for such a practice?
Just a Sheep,
I agree! Please don’t misunderstand my comments & questions. I’m actually very protective of pastors … but make that truly protective … that does not include supporting & protecting a pastor who is in a position where he has no real oversight or accountability. No one should be put in that dangerous position … far too much unchecked power & temptation. If nothing else … it gives the appearance if evil. And even if “yes men” are in place it doesn’t help … not even in appearances because they are too easy to spot.
Anyway … I agree with you … this whole thing stinks. There should be a better way in place to address problems … and way before there is a need for them to make it to any public forum. Yet … CC has chosen to have no way in place other than to leave the power in the hands of each pastor … and encourage those with concerns to go find another church home. Some pastors have used that power wisely … and de-throned themselves so to speak by putting into place real accountability and a means for people to address & then properly deal with problems … including their own removal if they become clearly off track. Others have unwisely kept the power … and at least from what I have seen … used that power to control & maintain that control … while all along believing they have the full blessing of CC. It stinks for all!