News from Bill Alnor is that Calvary Chapel Capo Beach , Chuck Jr’s church, is no longer on the CCOF list of Calvary affiliates.
Colleagues,
We are happy to announce that Calvary Chapel Outreach
Fellowship has finally dropped Capo Beach Calvary
Chapel from its list of affiliated Calvary Chapel
churches. This is significant due to the fact that
its pastor, Chuck Smith Jr., is the son of the
movement’s founder Chuck Smith.
If you look up Capo Beach Calvary on the church list
you will not find it there now.
(www.calvarychapel.com)
Chuck Smith Jr. has surfaced as a leader in the
"Emerging Church" movement, and over the weekend the
elder Smith released a statement condemning the
"Emerging Church" movement.
This is the statement Chuck Sr. has released… the Calvary Chapel position on the "emergent" church.
Oddly enough, Chuck Sr. was under fire for "eastern meditative language" and "contemplative prayer" references in a 2005 book he authored entitled "When Storms Come".
Smith claims the book was "tampered with" and Thomas Nelson has pulled the book and will republish without the aforementioned references.
The same site that criticized Smith’s book is now selling his "tampering" defense and blaming Chuck Jr as the tamperer.
Just one big happy family…
In other news…
It seems that Don McClure has stepped down at Calvary Laguna.
I haven’t inquired as to why, but maybe Don will stop by…
Please take the time to go to DIYMedia and read their excellent summary of the CSN scandals.
This is an incredible tale and one that will become more so in the near future.
phoenixpreacher@gmail.com
Phoenix Preacher Faxline
1-866-814-7685
Whoa. This may be the crack in the facade I have been expecting.
I am very leery of Don stepping down at Calvary Laguna.
Whatever else this is, it is ON for Calvary Chapel.
Don will stop by when he has time while seeking out his next church to steal..
Laura -
I don’t get your post…probably because it’s almost 2 in the morning here and I probably need a pot of coffee
Don’s departure is a crack in the facade? WHY is it ON for CC - and is that a good thing
please someone stop Don McClure from putting another church to SLEEP!! He even admits he is boring!!!
Well there’s the answer to my question about the book “When Storms Come.” It has been pulled and will be republished. I for one really appreciate that it was pulled and that Chuck made a public statement about it.
BG,
Coming out of prayer, I have believed a big tear in one of these stories was going to happen. It’s a kick in the pants that it happened within the home office, as it were.
The crack is the Chuck/Chuck Jr. issue. For Calvary, it does not get a whole lot bigger than that. The Lord is DEFINTELY weighing in now; it’s on.
I do not want Don McClure to come in as the “fixer” for CCABQ. I know it’s been talked about but I do not like what that portends.
When you spend all your time policing the orthodoxy of the world … sooner or later you will have to eat your own young.
history will repeat itself with mcCLure.. was he not the FIXER at Laguna.. but the problem is that he does not fix and go, He acts like he is fixing and hangs out way too long and bores the sheep to death
Michael, the same site that criticized Chuck’s book stated they hoped a public statement would be made and it was so they would certainly want to post it on their site.
(continued) don’t you think it’s a step in the right direction?
I just read the CC post on the Emerging Church movement, and I had a few observations:
I think CCOF may be better served by naming examples of people and churches who promote questionable doctrine in each of their points. The way the CCOF document is worded, I understand Calvary’s position, but are they painting too broad a brush about the Emerging movement? This movement has claimed conservative evangelical fundamentalists like Mark Driscoll as one of its own. The wikipedia article on the Emerging Church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church
lists Dan Kimball (who once served under Chip Ingram) as a key player.
From the CCOF article:
“There are those who say that Emergent movement has some good points, but so does a porcupine. You are better off if you don’t get too close!”
I disagree. Charismatics have good and bad points, too. But you don’t see Calvaries discounting the gifts of the spirit just because people in the Vineyard barked like dogs and mooed like cows or because Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne participated in “dueling tongues”
http://www.warneveryone.com/blind_and_the%20_dead.htm
I am continuing to pray for needed changes regarding cc and although I no longer attend one I am hopeful and optomistic that these changes can take place. I guess I am just happy to see a public statement about the book and the news about the capo beach disaffiliation is a big deal.
Big Guy
Did you read Mark Driscoll’s article in the Criswell Theolgical Journal essentially distinguishing himself theolgically and distancing himself from the original emergent discussion group and where the “Emergent” leadership has wandered?
Victorious, yeah, I skimmed through it. If you remember the CT “Out of Ur” blog where he responded to McLaren’s take on homosexuality, he kinda distanced himself from it there as well. I believe Driscoll’s acknowledged that people in emerging camp still try to count him as one of their own. But the conservative, evangelical, Reformed camp Driscoll is a part of is in a different place where the emerging movement is headed.
Big Guy,
I haven’t read the statement about the emergent church yet just the one about the book. I may need to wait until I get some sleep to read it. I will check in tomorrow, good night everyone!
I probably need to reread it myself and brush up on just what the emerging church really is…my understanding is that it’s a movement of people, some theologically conservative, some theologically liberal (and some in between) who wanted a more authentic relationship with God than they were getting out of the typical megachurch, or mainline church, or evangelical church. You had Reformed Calvnists mixed in with liberal feminists, conservatives and liberals, pastors influenced by Howard Hendricks and Rick Warren in theology and 1950s-era Elvis Presley in dress (Dan Kimball).
My understanding, based on what I’ve read from Driscoll, in Christianity Today and elsewhere online, is that emerging church is moving towards a liberal direction (Brian McLaren is becoming a main player). Calvary’s right to bring up those concerns in its article. But where I would diverge is in assuming that every emerging church is heretical. Judge each church/group by its fruit.
Big Guy:
Yeah I remember his “Out of Ur” response and the satire that got him into some heat with other bloggers.
It does remind us to be careful when we post in that capacity as a leader or in issuing an official response that is on the web. Our audience is larger and more diverse then just our original intended recipients and we need to be careful to clarify ourselves in light of the larger audience. I understood Chuck’s statement as you did but others may not. I also laughed at Mark’s satire even though I have ministered to ex-/coming out homosexuals and have tried to minister careful compassion in those situations along with the truth . Mark’s heart as a Pastor did come out as he later repented and apologized for his satirical remarks..
I think I am also punching in and handing my keyboard to the late shift.
That’s punching in my time card …
BG, just quickly read your last post.
Yes individual churches and leaders; that;s how the Lord deals with it in Revelation 2 and 3.
Victorious, I echo your thoughts….
I think I’M the late shift this evening….which is cool, I work 2nd shift…but probably need to get to bed anyway
Time to call it a night…the sun’ll be up in a few hours..or, a few more hours for you SoCal- and West Coast-ites
An interesting take:
http://inndwelling.blogspot.com/
(Yeah, I know I said I was going to bed earlier, but…)
I just posted on a really old post and I don’t know why. Anyways, I just read some of the CC stands from the Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowship. #6 was interesting to me because it speaks of theor no tolerence for homosexuality.The problem I have is how they address it. #6 “How long before they tell us that they have discovered that rapists, pedophiles, and adulterers have a genetic disorder and need to be understood rather than condemned? My question to the CCs’ would be how long will you make the people try to understand your pastors who commit adultry why you restore them a year later? Why don’t you condem them? I think you have a different set of rules for yourselves. A sin is a sin.
What is ironic is “like father, like son”: Chuck was sort of a rebel as he broke off from Foursquare and led a movement that was more culturally in touch than his old denomination. Churck Jr. has also done such. The Emergent church is a wide spectrum, but some of it is on target scripturally and resonating with the next generation.
If you look up Capo Beach Calvary on the church list you will not find it there now. (www.calvarychapel.com) - It’s true. I did a name search, and only Chuck Sr. shows up. Interesting.
I would like to hear from Chuck Jr. on this issue. He has posted here before.
The pdf from CCOF is kind of funny. They spend over half the document defining what CC is, then paint broad brushstrokes of the Emerging Movement. It gave me the feeling that this is the Pastors conference outline? Perhaps?
One “movement” criticizing another “movement”.
#5…We do not believe that we should seek to make sinners feel safe and comfortable in church. Is it right for me to speak comfortable words to a man who is going to hell unless he turns from his sin?
I guess that this one doesn’t apply to the pastors that are in continual unrepentive sin. Does it?
good and imformative thread and posts, thanks.
Whatever, Don doesn’t need to steal a church. He is very respected in the CC movement regardless of what happened at Laguna in your opinion.
I sort of laughed at one part of the CCOF document - the part mentioning the Acts 2:42 model.
I spent a couple of years at an “emergent church” years ago before anyone had labels for it. A couple things I really liked about it: there was a lot more time spent in worship and prayer than typical CC’s, and they celebrated the Lord’s table every week, and not in a rushed manner, but with plenty of time for meditating on what Christ did for us.
I appreciate when I hear that Jon Courson is giving much more emphasis to breaking bread as I believe this is scriptural as well as refreshing to the soul. I wish the other CC’s would follow his lead on this one. Maybe then the CCOF document would ring truer to my ears.
I pray Lord that for once the people on this blog won’t be taken captive. Misled to another topic which will not Glorify you. When some one like “WHAT” comes in and starts thier own mars thoughts.
amen
whew! I knew Capo Beach was bigger than the CC moniker. I hope it’s true. An alive church doesn’t need to be connected in name to a movement that is grinding to a halt.
Wow!
This is an interesting development. A Calvary Chapel with icons, inscense and evolution! Now don’t that beat all?!
This is not the kind of change I have been pryaing for at Calvary, but I guess it’s one way to wake ‘em up.
Now let’s see . . .
Calvary Chapel disaffiliates “emergent” pastors, but keeps those who practice hyper-authoritarianism and Shepherding.
I can see why it may be tempting to go emergent.
Had a CCer tell me once that candles were “Catholic”.
CCOF doc on the emerging church Just in case it "disappears":
"The time has come for us to restate the position of Calvary Chapel on a number of issues. We do this because Calvary Chapel has become known to represent a fairly definable entity in its approach to sound biblical teaching and approach to biblical doctrine. It’s not that we believe we have the "best" or "only" way; it’s simply the way we approach God’s word within Calvary Chapel. And likewise, if a different approach is to be taken, then all we ask is that the name Calvary Chapel not be attached to it."
First of all, Calvary Chapel is not a denomination; but rather a movement. We often receive inquiries as to whether or not Calvary Chapel has some kind of relationship with a national or international group. We answer such inquiries with our stated position that each church is independent and has established its own set of bylaws. We seek to identify with the true body of Christ in many denominations. We are ministers who hold basic common beliefs, and maintain them within a varied range of practices. We believe that every minister is responsible to Jesus as the chief Shepherd, and will ultimately answer to Him for his ministry and not to us. We love and respect each other and rejoice with those that rejoice, and weep with those who weep. As with the Apostle Paul, we do not feel that we have apprehended that for which we were apprehended, neither are we perfect, but this is what we seek to do. Forgetting those things which are behind and reaching for those things that are before, we press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Secondly, we hold to the supremacy of Jesus as the head of the body, His church. We look to the Holy Spirit to guide and direct each decision in the building up of the body of Christ. Having begun in the Spirit, we do not seek to be made perfect in the flesh, but seek to continue to be led by the Spirit. We believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and is infallible and the final authority for our faith and practice. We believe that God established the model for the church in the book of Acts, and seek to follow that model as much as is possible. We feel that church history is for the most part a sad commentary of the failure of men who sought by human genius and resources to perfect that which was begun in the Spirit. The messages of Jesus to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 show how early in the history of the church problems developed for which they need to repent. So much for church history, but something that we must not simply disregard. We must realize that it shows us so clearly how the enemy has, is, and will continue the attacks upon the church and upon our individual ministries. How our heart grieves for the many who have started the race but have failed to complete it.
In the book of Acts we see that the activities of the church were described as:
1. Continuing steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, which we understand to be a systematic teaching of the Bible.
2. Fellowship, which we understand to be a loving and caring relationship with each other. As John wrote, "That which we have seen and heard, declare we unto you, that you may have fellowship with us and truly our fellowship is with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ."
3. The breaking of bread. This to us is a tangible epresentation of the unity that we share in Christ for we understand that the bread speaks to us of the body of Christ which was broken for us, and as we all eat the bread and it is assimilated into our bodies, we are spiritually united through Jesus with each other; in the fact that the bread that is ourishing me and is becoming a part of me, is also nourishing you and becoming a part of you. Thus, we are united together in Christ. He dwells in me; He dwells in you.
4. Prayer. Through prayer we unite our hearts with the heart of God that we might see His will accomplished in the church and throughout the world.
We believe that when the church will make these four things the major activities of the church, that happened in the book of Acts, the Lord will add daily to the church such as should be saved. Thus, we do not look to the myriad of church growth programs that are being promoted for the building of the church but to Jesus Himself, who said that He would build His church. We do watch as the many programs come and go in which man by his wisdom tries to do the work of God more effectively, but rather than entering into the programs of man, seek to continue to be led by the Spirit of God. We realize that the Scriptures warn us of aberrant doctrines that would come into the church, even going so far as to deny our Lord Jesus. Second Peter chapter 2, verse 1 tells us, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." Likewise in Jude, chapter 1, verse 4 we read, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
We see a tendency toward this in what is commonly called the "Emergent Church" teachings. Some of the concerns that we have are with the speculations and positions that they are suggesting:
1. That Jesus is not the only way by which one might be saved. It seems that they are postulating a broader gate and a broader path to heaven, a sort of "all roads lead to heaven." That good people by every religious persuasion may be received into heaven. We feel that this goes against the plain teaching of the Scriptures and negates the need of the cross for the expiation of our sins. Paul wrote of those men in his letter to the Philippians and called them enemies of the cross of Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father but by Me." This is not relative truth, but absolute truth.
2. The soft peddling of hell as the destiny for those who reject the salvation offered through Jesus Christ. There are suggestions of universalism in their teaching, that all will ultimately be saved.
3. We have difficulty in their touchy-feely relating to God. Where the experience of certain feelings become the criteria for truth rather than the word of God.
4. We have great problems with the use of icons to give them a sense of God or the presence of God. If they want to have a tie with the historicity of the church, why not go back to the church in Acts, which seems to be devoid of incense, candles, robes etc., but was filled with the Spirit.
5. We do not believe that we should seek to make sinners feel safe and comfortable in church. Is it right for me to speak comfortable words to a man who is going to hell unless he turns from his sin? If I fail to warn him of the consequences of his sin, and he dies and goes to hell, will God require his blood at my hand? When is godly sorrow and conviction of sin such a wrong thing?
6. Should we seek to condone what God has condemned, such as the homosexual lifestyle? Should we tell them that their problem is a genetic disorder rather than a blatant sin that God condemns over and over in the Bible? How long before they tell us that they have discovered that rapists, pedophiles, and adulterers have a genetic disorder and need to be understood rather than condemned?
7. Should we look to Eastern religions with their practices of meditation through Yoga and special breathing techniques or repeating a mantra to hear God speak to us? If this is needed to enhance our communication with God, why do you suppose that God did not give us implicit instructions in the Scriptures to give us methods to hear His voice? Is it the position of my body or my heart that helps me to communicate with Him?
8. The great confusion that exists in the divergent positions of the Emergent Church results from their challenging the final authority of the Scriptures. When you no longer have a final authority, then everyone’s ideas become as valid as the next person’s, and it cannot help but end in total confusion and contradictions. There are those who say that Emergent movement has some good points, but so does a porcupine. You are better off if you don’t get too close! So, let us not turn to our own understanding, but rather return to our own first love; and teach that the Bible is indeed the true word of God; and teach it in its entirety; nothing less and nothing more.
The Emergent Church… I dunno. I think during my spiritual crisis that led to my departure from CC that if I had been aware of a conservative emergent church in my area I might have joined. I was dying for lack of what the emergents call Authentic Christianity. CC had ceased to be authentic for me, Everything seemed like a mind game: bare-bones “communion” (I thought the next step had to be a vending machine in the foyer for crackers and juice), trivialized baptisms, vapid, self-centered music, dreary verse by verse treks through the Bible with no practical application to life…. If you were a charistmatic (I wasn’t) even that was fading away. No real connection with the community. With a few exceptions there was a total disconnect between the leadership and the people…. In the face of all this superficiality who wouldn’t yearn for something more authentic?
Isn’t this why Chuck says he left the evils of Denominationalism?
there are 2 distinct definitions coming up about the emergent church:
1. they are way liberal and denying scripture
2. they are seeking a “deeper” walk - hey, maybe CABQ is an emerging church?
So which is it?
I think that the emergent church may offer something that CCs and other churches don’t:
Connectedness to each other. I think I can see a trend where people are sick and tired of going to megachurches where everything is a production, seems manufactured and you have become a cog in the machine. Even small churches will use fancy slogans and stuff to motivate people. People want to have meaningful fellowship instead of programmed bible study and discussion. They want to part of a commuity.
I can see the appeal of people experiencing more rather than merely participating more. It seems a much more natural extension of Christianity. But I’m not sure it can deliver what it seems to promise.
Scott,
Your last post could be a thread all unto itself. I think this is something we could dismantle, we’ll probably disagree some, but I’m guessing that I would share many of the same views with you regarding community. Some people are looking for more experience and more connectedness, others really like that pre -programmed homogenized, franchised forms of doing church. Those who want church like the one they just left ususally don’t find a home in our fellowship.
I felt very strongly to let the church form itself based one who is a part of the fellowship and the ministries they have been called into. i didn’t want to pour the people into any kind of mold, but rather let the Spirit of God shape them individually and collectively by the word of God.
I am hesitant to say this, but I remember when CCCM was being raised up in a great way back in the late 60-s and 70’s. As I’ve stated before, I grew up SBC. There was caution and concern about Calvary Chapel which yielded to unwarrented, broadbrushed criticism of what God was doing there. I was strictly warned not to go there. (Spiritual abuse, as you all know, is across the board in the church) I’m hearing these same type of comments from a few of the Calvary Chapel pastors.
Someone mentioned Mark Driscoll in an earlier post. He has distanced himself from the other Emergent leaders due to their views on doctrines of which I commend him.
http://theresurgence.com/?q=node/5
I guess the question will always remain as to how thin do we slice the bread. I remember watching Billy Graham on TBN being interviewed by Paul (sue the bastards!!) and Jan Crouch. Billy was thanking God and them for theri great ministry and how he watches their programs frequently. I wanted to hurl. Yet many conservative, mainline (whatever that is anymore) Christian movements and denominations embrace The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association whole heartedly, and yet won’t have anything to do with TBN. We all seem to make strange bed fellows, don’t we?
I question Calvary’s explanation of the Emergent church movement’s beliefs. Can someone without an axe to grind please post a difinitive summary of the movement and what they’re about?
Read the May 23 Out of Ur post entitled “Is Emergent the new Left?” It has a pretty good explanation.
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/05/liking_da_vinci.html
The emerging church is far too broad to pin down as a singular bogeyman. You have conservative theologians, and liberals within the movement. I take the challenges from those with whom I disagree, and see where I need to change, or where my beliefes and practices can be steeled.
Several strong aspects of emerging churches are their strong commitment to community within the body of Christ, social action, and a desire to follow the teachings and lifestyle of Jesus. At least this is what I’ve picked up from them. Some of their thoughts on Christians and war in light of Christ’s teachings have caused me to meditate and reflect deeply on my own beliefs, and frankly, I have changed.
Many in emergent question the inerrancy of Scripture, the doctrine of hell as most Christians have understood it, and whether uiversalism is untrue, among other things. These are things Christians have debated for centuries, and I don’t know that they are prerequisites for entry into heaven, though I hold to all 3 beliefs (currently).
As for making sinners feel uncomfortable “in church” (phrase I abhor), it sounds great if you’re “in”. You can draw the circle around yourself and set the boundaries. The problem is, I don’t think Jesus’s boundaries are our boundaries, and I don’t know when CC went from a Jesus movement that welcomed hippie drug addicts to safe, suburban, churchy people, but it’s happened.
As far as homosexuals go, God forbid we let them among us. They may become Christians and start another movement, a la another man that CC doesn’t acknowledge.
So, let’s see here. Hippies, yes. homos, no. Hippie homos, yes. Anybody up for a game of Frisbee?
Hi Centorian:
I wonder if you will respond to my question yesterday. Is Rick Coburn accountable to us who have been hurt at CCOKC? Should he answer to us, at least privately?
You’re bad, JJ.
Anonymous:
I think you left the wrong link, try: Is Emergent the New Christian Left - Tony Jones responds to the critics.
Also here’s another criticism from the same site by James MacDonald with responses: Part 1 and Part 2.
My friend alerted me to this web site a while back… and I think it is great that there is a nudge against leadership to be more open and accountable. And that you are standing in the gap of a weak Christian press that does not act like its secular counterparts do, acting as a fifth column to expose societal wrongs and illuminate where things go off the rails.
I think Christian leadership has far too long gone without having any system of checks and balances like Congress or corporations or any other institution that I know deals with.
So, kudos on this blog. May you find that middle voice where you can prick the conscience, stave off the people who call you “gossipmongers” and withstand your own pitfalls of lapsing into judgmentalism or prideful errors. (Didn’t The Who warn us rightly… “Meet the old boss. Same as the new boss.”)
As for Chuck Jr. not being on the big CC tote board, I can’t imagine that this comes as any big shock to him. He has long distanced himself from the CC mindset and done his own thing. There is no dove to be found in his church. It is not called Calvary Chapel of Capo Beach anymore, but Capo Beach Calvary. These are small things, but added up they all said one thing; I am doing my own thing. It is unfortunate that the other CCers whose fear seems to get the best of them cannot see the brilliance that is yet to emerge from this fellow.
As for Chuck Sr… well, he was brought up in the era of “come out of her and be ye separate,” so, this is just his fundamentalist roots coming to the fore. The pendulum has swung away from this isolationist and separatistic tendencies (albeit they exist in a certain amount of fervor within CC)… but if that is what someone was taught what was the right course of action, it is understandable. You know what they say about new tricks and old dogs.
Jesus Christ, son of God
Have mercy on all of us.
dd
p.s. I like Frisbee…
for a primer on the emerging church. http://www.theooze.com/main.cfm
For the choir. http://emergentno.blogspot.com/
Where have I been?
I had never heard of the Emergent church stuff. Wow. I am middle aged and oblivious. Thank you Big Guy and others, who have posted links.
There is an appeal to have this free flowing, no strings, openess within the church, yet I wonder if in some ways, there will not be many many more abuses by wolves. It seems that there may fewer checks and balances than within the Calvary system. How many people will wander into the liberal forms of the emergent churches and find Oprah spirituality instead of the Lord? Sort of frightening.
I am glad that Chuck Smith Sr. has spoken about his son’s ideas. It must be hard to do, yet it was a must.
Maybe, as they say, “Let the Buyer Beware.” The church doors should say, “Let the Churchgoer Beware.”
Centorian - intersesting link. I’ll have to read more about him.
I will never forget that man, Frisbee. I will never forget the documentary I saw on him. It was truly one the most impacting experiences of my christian walk. To watch CC not honor him is a travesty. Thankfully, Chuck Smith Jr. honored him, and Greg Laurie honored him the night the film was shown at CBC.
Okay, I hear the Christianese coming out of some of you, so let me clarify. Honor the work Jesus did through the man.
Scott,
Follow me to
I want to penalize you 5 yards for attempted thread hijacking.
http://phoenixpreacher.com/?p=527 Follow me 3.
oy vey
you sound like a bunch of yentas!
it’s enough already
Michael, how soon is the “near future”?
JJ
Can I get you to be my press agent?
I continue to be fascinated by not only Lonnie but the reaction to Lonnie. Absolutely freaking fascinating.
It is intriguing to watch what gets dismissed and what does not. Seems very haphazard to me, but that is because I sit on the sidelines and watch (and laugh, let’s not forget that part).
Huge kudos to Chuck Sr. for allowing all of the longhairs into his church to start this whole thing. Even bigger backslaps for allowing him to give Lonnie the pulpit, someone that he knew emerged from the homosexual lifestyle and also knew that he still struggled. And I believe God honors that kind of openness and willingness to experiment.
But somewhere along the line, that willingness to be open seems to have closed. I have talked with some of the early old-timers from CC… people who laid the foundations of the church building, and their frustration with how CC has changed so dramatically. One guy who told me that Romaine prayed for him to receive the baptism found his name and picture on a “BEWARE OF THIS MAN” poster because he was praying for others to receive the baptism. You could see the pain in this guy’s eyes, as if his church had somehow become something different than when he first went there.
Not sure that Sr. is so doctrinally succinct either. I seem to remember a few books that aren’t sold anymore at CC bookstores that are not only embarrassing, but probably caused a lot of damage to people’s spiritual well-being.
There is a wideness in God’s mercy, though… and I would think that for all our fumbling heavenward, God doesn’t remove us from affiliation with him as easily as we do others.
fingers crossed,
dd
http://www.lonniefrisbee.com/
DD,
That photo illustration on the site is still arresting to me. I get goosebumps when I see it. Good job. Careful, you’re showing your film among unbelievers, some of whom are gay. That won’t earn you any brownie points in evangelicaldom.
Don’t you know you’re suposed to make vapid films and show them to churches only?
Oooh, David, I just had a thought. How about a Frisbee study guide and devotional? Bracelets and bumper stickers? T-Shirts and water bottles? Breath mints and underwear? C’mon, man. Gotta make money off this Jesus thing.
I am not surprised that Chuck Jr. is and has been going in this direction with the Emergent Church Movement since his father is ecumenical himself. Ecumenical movement is aimed at achieving universal Christian unity and church union through international interdenominational organizations. He and other CC pastors consider the Catholic religion part of the Body of Christ. Catholicism is NOT part of the body of Christ and neither is any other priestly type religious system. Contemplative spirituality, prayers, meditation goes back to early Catholicism and practiced by Catholic priests. Whether it’s Emergent Church Movement or Ecumenism it is headded toward a one world religious system.
There is nothing on target Scripturally about the Emerging Church other than it’s leading the next generation down the wrong path, making it easier for all to welcome the Antichrist. How dreadful. Yet because everyone is embracing the idea that it would be so wonderful to all be united with “we are all part of the Body mentality” they refuse to heed the warnings in the Scriptures regarding this.
Revelation 17 talks of the great harlot (source of all false religions) that sits upon many waters (a succession of empires).
We need to wake up people and sound the warning. The Lord’s return is at hand. Jesus said “ Surely I come quickly”.
Is it any wonder that all these things are happening in the CC movement? Is the Lord not getting our attention yet? Have we become complacent?
How I pray for the Calvary Chapels to stand up for Jesus and start sounding the warning. Not settle for the let’s make them feel good messages anymore. Or the seeker friendly we don’t want to offend anyone. But really yell it from the rooftops that there is a real Hell and Jesus is willing that none should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Michael, maybe it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start that study on the book of Revelation you suggested a while back.
dsl
do you know if this film is on or will come out on dvd? I would really like to see it.
LOL… don’t think I haven’t thought about it.
I actually did a very dumb thing… was talking to a friend of mine whose friend did a hat with Lonnie’s face on it. Of course, we all started to think a bit and my entrepreneurial side kicked in (somewhere along the line I became my father, which is okay with me… now…sigh) and I thought, “Hey, why not t-shirts and hats?”
I made two phonecalls… one to Stan Frisbee and another to John Ruttkay… and they kicked my ass for even having the thought of doing something like that.
So, I tucked my tail between my leg and gave my head a shake. It is a seductive thing not to fall prey to that money-making impulse.
I am certain that some do not understand what I am up to, but that is okay. Some days I have no idea what I am up to.
Glad you enjoyed the film. We will be broadcast on PBS in October. And there is a chance that we might go national. So, that is good news.
Frisbee frisbees?
dd
DSL,
I just learned from you that :
Chuck Jr. is leading people to the alledged one world religion.
Catholics can’t be brothers and sisters in Christ.
The EC offers nothing Biblical.
Back away from the pipe, bro.
You speak of sounding the alarm about Hell. How many sermons in the book of Acts can you find that focus on Hell? Just curious. The gospels?
DD,
Props to you for what you’ve done for Lonnie and with the movie, though I haven’t had the chance to see it yet
The wait to see it on PBS is almost as excruciating as the wait for the new season of Battlestar Galactica on Sci-Fi…
any chance at all of it coming out on DVD soon?
Blessings
DD, how about a dvd? BTW, are you David?
I urge everyone to see this film, and maybe there can be a thread on it after it comes out.
…on PBS.
Quite some time ago I thought a CSN frisbee seemed appropriate, ya know…. because of their spinning ability.
DD,
I admit, I am trying to reel you in here, so forgive me, I guess. But I think you’d offer good perspective on where CC was and where it is now, because you spoke with so many people in putting the film together.
Just to baptize you into PP, here goes: you, DD are a liberal homo-friend, an unlover of the Word, who is trying to lead us into the one-world religion where Nicolae Carpathia, a gay Italian, will kill Jews. Welcome!
Here’s an excellent blog on things emergent:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com
I never met Lonnie Frisbee and had no knowledge of him until now! But it’s a shame if they have removed him from the church history. We’re all sinners and prone to return to our sins as a dog goes back to his vomit. We struggle constantly with sins and the flesh. Thank God that He sent His Son to die for us.
Apart from Lonnie Frisbee:
Personally, I think homosexuality is a horrendous activity which is causing a lot of diseases. The sad part is that it is now a politically correct sin and we dare not speak ill of it. Many of those who practice this sin are not ashamed, but proud of it. There is hope for those who are ashamed of their sins, because at least they will seek repentance and forgiveness. When someone is proud of their sin, there no reason to seek repentance and obtain forgivness. The Lord died to pay for all sins. Unlike the politically correct society we live in, we have to call it sin. Jesus loves sinners and died for sinners - liars, thieves, adulterers, homos. That’s the good news.
Dare I say what I just said?
DSL,
Hang in there.
mail@tonyabetz.org
This is off thread entirely. Just wondering why any of you bloggers use ‘freaking’ and ‘frigging’ as much as you do since it is clearly a subsitute for the word you probably would never use in any conversation? Personally, the word is abhorrent to me.
For people struggling with homosexuality. http://www.joedallas.com/
For people struggling with porn (you CC pastors travelling out of town). http://xxxchurch.com/
All others, feel guilty that you can’t do the “1 Step Program” that CC pastors talk about.
I’m friggin offended!
1 Step Program? Please enlighten us.
This is a little bit scary and a little bit funny at the same time.
Are you sure you guys aren’t being too premature with your announcements and reaching conclusions too quickly?
If you guys get your information from Alnor and these Lighthouse Trails Research people (whoever they are), and it ends up you posted something that was untrue or wildly innacurate, you have only yourselves to blame.
Since WHEN did something being or not being on the list on the CCOF web site mean anything? The CCCM and Calvary Chapel main web sites have always been notoriously innacurate, technically faulty, outdated and unmaintained for as long as the Web has been around (although there’s been much improvement lately).
JJ and others brought up a very, very important point when they clarified that “emergent” is just a label, and one that has no precise definition.
Chuck Jr. and CBC have never issued a statement saying “We declare ourselves an Emergent church, and reject the teachings of Calvary Chapel”.
Neither Chuck Sr., CCCM nor CCOF have issued a statement declaring that Chuck Jr. and CBC are in apostasy or that they are to be considered no longer in fellowship with the rest of us.
The sources you referenced go on and on about how the “Emergent Church” rejects the authority of scripture. As stated already, “Emergent” is a very broad label, with varying definitions and meanings.
Chuck Smith Jr. definitely does NOT reject the Bible! He embraces it wholeheartedly. CBC seeks to be a biblical church. Chuck Jr. teaches through the Bible. Weeknights are a one night summary of each book of the Bible. The Sunday morning sermons are going through the book of Matthew. Chuck says he is doing this series because he wants to know Jesus, as He really is, and to be like Him.
Chuck Jr. and Sr. have already stated publically that they are not going to permit the Alnors to drive a wedge between them.
If you go to the Capo Beach web site, and look in the bulletin, you will see that they are promoting a men’s banquet with Chuck Smith Sr. as featured speaker.
Duh!
Their web site can be found at CALVARYCHAPEL.COM/CAPOBEACH/ , just where it’s always been!
Double Duh!
They have a dove at Capo Beach. If you think of where the cross it at CCCM, that will give you a good clue where to look for the dove when you visit Capo Beach. Yes, CCCM really has a cross, and I’m not refering to the little crosses on the end of the pews.
And anyone who thinks that it’s okay for a church to not have a cross, but that if you don’t have a dove you are in apostasy, is downright wacky and borderline cultic.
Open your eyes, people, when you go to church and when you read web sites.
Double Duhs and Triple Quadruple Blessings to all!!
A Friend of CBC
For those who are interested…the “Response to Recent Criticisms” of the emergent movement by some of the top players in emergent (Tony Jones, Doug Pagitt, Spencer Burke, Brian McLaren, Dan Kimball, Andrew Jones and Chris Seay)
http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=1151
BG,
1 Step is a cute little joke made by a lot of CC pastors who attempt to debunk AA-type programs. “I don’t need 12 steps. I took the 1 step- to Jesus,” is usually how the line goes.
I’m sure this hysterical to all the children who have grown up with alcoholics and have had their lives radically changed because their parent got sober.
Yes, they’re still going to Hell, yada yada yada.
JJ
What I said is that EC and ecumenical movement is headed toward a one world religious system. It might be a good idea if you read Rev. 17 the words of Jesus not mine.
Catholic religion is NOT part of the body of Christ. There are individuals in that system who are true believers whom the Lord does convict of its falsehood. I know someone personally who really was a true believer but didn’t know why he had to go to a priest to confess his sins. After some wonderful discussions he left the catholic church and has been actually going to CCCM for the last 20+ years.
The only thing EC has to offer is religiosity at best.
JJ you must not read your Bible very much. Jesus spoke about Hell more than anything else.
Here is a list for you:
Mat. 5:22, 29, 30
10:28
11:23
16:18
18:9
23:15, 33
Mrk. 9:43, 45, 47
Lk 10:15
12:5
16:23
Acts 2:27, 31
James 3:16
2Pet. 2:4
Rev. 1:18
6:8
20:13, 14
And these are just the ones mentioned in the New Testament.
Hope you read them they are the words of JESUS.
DSL
Read it all the time, DSL, which is why I asked yo to find refernces in acts. Thanks for that “one” in Acts, which speaks of Christ’s resurrection from the dead, not people burning in Hell.
You only illustrate my point. There are few sermons on Hell in the teachings of Jesus. His focus was on discipleship, not getting out Hell free cards, unlike Christians nowadays who are obseesed with the legal ways to skirt Hell to the neglect of a redeemed life filled with spiritual fruit today.
Can’t wait for the crazys to hit the site now that Chuck Jr’s name was mentioned.
I would love to tell my tail about capo beach but for now I think I will see what developes.
I am glad Calvary is taking a stand one way or another.
They need to define who they are so people can decide who they want to follow.
Jacob Lee
DSL -
Good one about the Ecumenical Movement. We hardly hear of it anymore, and so much of the church is holding hands with the Great Whore of Babylon - the false church.
There must be a dividing line between good and evil, right and wrong. So much of Christianity has become the all inclusive Oprah style - very broad and “positive.”
As far as Catholics and others who have church ordinances; we can say that by adding any rules as a prerequisite to salvation, they fall from grace. Jesus Christ did it all and we are saved by grace and by His work alone. Grace mixed with the Law, is no longer grace. Catholics, like others, must reject their own fleshly rules and sacraments to enter into grace. And really, how insulting it must be to God for them to have a priesthood, when the ulitimate High Priest already came and made atonement for all sins. We have one confessional - and that is in our prayer closet with the only one Who is able to forgive sins. How dare a man take that spot!
You guys need to define your terms. What do you mean by “Ecumenical Movement”?
JJ,
You must be talking about “Fire insurance” Christianity. I know there are a lot of people who have gotten a policy and then they go about their business. Who knows if down the road the the seed will grow? I have seen no fruit for years, and then, with a little watering, some of those people begin to grow. Hard telling how God does what He does? I don’t understand. I know one young girl who came forward at a Christian concert. That was four years ago. I don’t know that there is any fruit yet. Was it real? I don’t know. Hopefully.
There are some who have all the “fruit” for everyone to see, and yet inside they are unchanged. They are just good actors and actresses. Hard to figure who is in and who isn’t!!!
JJ - They mean anyone who claims to be a Christian, but who isn’t like them!
DSL, you beat me to it. Hell is a huge subject in the Bible. There is a heaven and there is a hell and we need to know that. The old preachers use to say that there is a hell to shun and a heaven to gain. I believe we could use a little more fire a brimstone to go along with accountability to the Word. Hell is a deterrent, but heaven is an incentive. They work in conjucntion, just like the Law and grace. The Law brings death to those who are condemned by it, but when we see our sinfulness, by the Law, we are pointed to Christ, who, by our faith, through grace “charis” - the divine influence upon our hearts, with the reflection in the life (look it up in Strong’s) - we are set free from the bondage of sin (lawlessness by biblical definition) and death that leads to eternity in hell, and instead given eternal life in HIM and on our way to heaven. His Law continual points out our trangressions and points us back to Christ for forgiveness in his blood, when we as HIS children break HIS commandments. That is sanctification. Praise God, becasue of Jesus we are not headed to Hell, but instead we are on the Calvary Road to Heaven.
JJ,
The ecumenical movement is all embracing. They all claim to be Christian, but their doctrines are not Biblical in many cases. Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, United Methodists (whether or not they believe in the diety of Christ or the Virgin birth), Episcopalian, etc……). The Mormons have not arrived yet as far as I know. Maybe they are part of it. I know that my aunt was going to a United Methodist church that rejected the diety of Christ and the Virgin Birth. How could we possibly have fellowship? Their Jesus was not God.
Within this group, there are some who are born again - adhering to the Scripture as their reference point, but there are a lot of them who are very liberal and they actually reject the Scripture.
I think of the topic of homosexuality. The Biblical church rejects that sin, the liberal church embraces it. How can the Biblical church hold hands with the liberal church and not become defiled? (There are many other issues besides homosexuality).
Thanks, Papias. ;+)
Time to roll out another Top 10.
Top 10 Bad Buzzwords.
10. Candle
9. Incense
8. McClaren
7. Emerging
6. Meditation
5. Contemplative
4. Jr.
3. Experience
2. Homosexual
1. Newnham
Top 10 Good Buzzwords
10. Smith
9. Verse by Verse
8. the Word
7. Dove
6. Moses
5. Incongruent
4. Bitter
3. Submit
2. Whore
1. Fusco
Fire Insurance Christianity usually results in people who bear no fruit and when things start going well in their lives (the bills get paid, the wife comes back home, the sickness doesn’t end in death, etc.) they go back to the old way of life. This only proves they do not believe. Hell is still there in Scripture. It is important to the LORD to speak and warn us about it. Death and Hell are a sure thing for those who reject the Savior. Many people will consider the LORD because of a fear of death and hell, and then, understanding their sin and the need for a Savior, they come to the LORD for salvation. Some people, as I alluded to in the front of this post, come because their lives seem to have gotten off track and when they seem to get back on they are on their way again. The difference is that hell is a constant and life’s circumstances can get better on their own. Either way, a true conversion only comes when one comes to grips with their sin and its consequences and genuinely, out of a contrite and broken heart, surrender their lives to Jesus, becoming born again.
Hell, I agree with you guys. But, there are believers who do not believe in Hell, or that people will be there forever. Still others believe that Hell is only temporary, and they make strong cases for it.
I can hear it now, “Enter into the joy of your - no, wait! You didn’t believe in Hell? Go to Hell.”
JJ
Jesus’ focus was on saving the world from going to Hell. His death and resurrection WAS His focus. So that we wouldn’t have to go to Hell. I’m sure Jesus didn’t think of His dying for us as a get out of Hell free card. How grieving to think such a tought.
But He did say “…and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out”. Jn 6:37
There is no legal way to skirt Hell as you put it, but there should be a real fear of Hell for those who refuse His free offer of salvation. He is a loving God but He is also a just God.
And yes there should be evidence of repentance.
” if You were arrested for being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you?” I heard Greg Laurie say this once.
Nice gabbing with you JJ and Banner Kid! The dogs are barking for the walk. I had obedience training and now I obey. Is there such a thing as Canine abuse? I think I am abused!
I recall the leaders at CCLaguna telling the congregation…that if they made a mistake in taking over the church, we would all know within 2 yrs. Funny, in August it will be 2yrs.
Now that they have run the church into the ground, why not give it back to JOE and let God continue doing what He was doing before the MEN OF GREED got involved!
No, no, no. His focus was on bringing the kingdom of God to man. Hell-avoidance and heaven reception is the icing on the cake.
Let me ask you, would you go to heaven if Jesus weren’t there? Seriously. The answer reveals the priority, does it not?
JJ,
Couldn’t you have just said “friggin” or “freakin” instead of the H E double toothpick word?
Jude - hahahahaha. Those friggin’ liberals are goin’ to H-H- double hockey sticks!
Sorry, H-E- double hockey sticks. See, I do little thinking about Hell, I can’t even spell it right.
Sojourner
I agree with your posts. Thanks. It’s a tragedy what christianity has become,because there is no real fear of hell anymore. Thanks to the ecumenical and emergent churches our future genration is on the right track of ” wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be which go in there at”. Mt7:13
Banner Kid
You’re right.
Carol
If I may i will email you a bit later.
JJ
“Let me ask you, would you go to heaven if Jesus weren’t there? Seriously. The answer reveals the priority, does it not? ”
Ps. 139:7-8
Where shall i go from your spirit? or where shall i flee from your presence?
If i ascend up into heaven thau art there if i make my bed in hell behold thou art there.
dsl
Reading all these posts begs this question: If Jesus were to walk the earth as He did 2000 years ago, who would crucify Him?
DSL,
The ecumenical movement is nowhere mentioned in Revelation 17…I looked for it there. And also, you may want to rethink the statement that Jesus spoke of hell “more than anything else.” I think he spoke of the Kingdom of God more than anything else…besides, many of your proof texts were not even the words of Christ (though they were inspired scripture).
Now, having said that, let me make it plain that I do not support the agenda of the world council of churches (commonly associated with the broader ecumenical movement), and I believe fully in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for the unbelieving.
There is a pure ecumenicism and a pure catholicism, for instance, the “ecumenical creeds” of the Church are not liberal “one-world religion” stuff…they are the classical doctrinal statements of all true Christians in all ages.
Let’s just be careful with what we say and beware of reactionist conspiracy theories…trust me, I’ve been there.
Hi some of you may remember me from the SOLS vs Laguna days. I want to make a few comments here and frankly I don’t care what anyone thinks of me for it..
I love Joe Sabolick and always will. I have also gotten to know Don McCLure some the last couple of months. Don has treated me with kindness and respect. I was there on Sunday when he made the annoucment that he was stepping down some at Laguna. The reasons he gave were that he needed to free himself up because he as asked to speak inso many places and he is gone so much he thought it was only fair to drop out of the everyday runnings of Laguna and leave that up to the board and staff. As far as I know he is still going to speak when he is here ,but is sharing the pulpit with other people. That is the way I understood it now Don if you read this and I am wrong correct me.
And about emergent…
While I’m glad that Calvary has actually made a statement about emergent, I had a mixed response. First, while I think the critiques were generally on target, they were just that: general. There was very little documentation of specific authors and teachers who may espouse these objectionable ideas.
Second, when will people get over this idea that the book of Acts is somehow supposed to be normative for the Church today? Are we supposed to have apostles and prophets? Are we supposed to lay hands on those “only acquainted with the baptism of John” and who have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit so that they can receive the Baptism of the Spirit? Maybe the rest of the New Testament (like the epistles) is also normative? The book of Acts is a historical record of a transitional period in the History of the Church–not a normative blueprint for how the church is to be (otherwise everyone who is not a traveling missionary like Paul is obviously in sin). This is all just a lame and thinly veiled excuse to dismiss the careful study of church history.
Quotes like the following are just pathetic generalizations.
“We believe that God established the model for the church in the book of Acts, and seek to follow that model as much as is possible. We feel that church history is for the most part a sad commentary of the failure of men who sought by human genius and resources to perfect that which was begun in the Spirit…So much for church history.”
What a sad thing to say…to categorize 2000 years of the Bride of Christ and her earthly triumph and struggle and thought and prayer and heartache and martyrdom as “for the most part” ANYTHING is a drastic oversimplification, and cannot be anything but insulting to Jesus Christ, who purchased her with his own blood and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail over her. Yes, part of the History of the Church is a sad commentary on man’s failure, but where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more, and the glory of Church History is that the grace of God has been triumphant in every generation. Away with intellectually lazy generalizations!
ps
there is some good in emergent…but so long as someone like Brian McLaren is speaking for them, it’s awful hard to see the good.
I believe that the Ecumenical movement brings all of liberal “Churchianity” into the loving arms of the Roman church (the harlot that sits on seven hills). We can identify the harlot by reading Daniel 9:26 - Obviously Rome. “…’And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.’…” The prince who is to come is the Antichrist and the people who destroyed the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD were the Romans, under Titus.
The Popes of Catholicism controled the kings of Europe for years and still, many governments dance to the tune of whatever the Pope says (see Revelation 17:2). If I am correct, I believe the word, Catholic, means universal. Universal = the wide gate!
It’s sad to see churches who were once living and breathing vessels for Jesus Christ, now holding hands with the harlot - the enemy of Jesus Christ. She is seen as drunk with the blood of the saints (believers) and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. (Revelation 17:6). Granted, there are other religions holding hands with this harlot too. Doesn’t all “religion” hate true Christianity?
I know that Dogsectorgreen is growling right now!
DTS - I am with you on the church history thought. “So much for church history.”
Calvary is so anti-intellectual when it comes to this subject, because for many, church history started back in the “tent days’.
But worse than that, they paint all of church history as “for the most part a sad commentary of the failure of men who sought by human genius and resources to perfect that which was begun in the Spirit” - The shear audacity!
“Everyone else in church history was doing it in the flesh until we came along..”, really seems to be what they ar saying.
Yeah, ACTS is normalitive for the church. It takes place over 30 years! If they want to use Acts, then we should have elders picked by the people…
This reminds me when I hear another CC pastor teach Rev 2+3, and parrot the line,..” when you study church history, and place Revalation 2 and 3 besides it..”
Didn’t you all know that the true church disappeared off the face of the earth until Joseph Smith translated the golden tablets with a seer stone? Where have you been?! The Mormons resurrected true Christianity! (Sorry, I couldn’t help myself!)
I have to run to the store. I’ll butt out and spare you all!
disillusioned theological student said “Are we supposed to have apostles and prophets? ”
We do whether you like it or not. They’re on TBN and in the pages of Charisma each month.
I have a request for the moderators -
Would it be possible to move the ecumenical discussion to another thread? It’s a great discussion and should continue, but it’s crowding out what I thought was a promising thread on the emergent/emerging church.
Please forgive me if I was out of turn with my previous comment. I know that threads on here always take a life of their own.
Mark Driscoll talks about the emerging church and says its future is up for grabs:
http://www.thechurchreport.com/content/view/1091/32/
Ed Stetzer of the SBC’s North American Mission Board gives his definitions of the emergent movement - relevants (conservative in theology, contemporary in appearance, intentionally going out into the community), reconstructionists (typically orthodox in theology, but will gather in house churches) and revisionists (revisiting and questioning traditional church teaching on the nature of the atonement, hell, and other core beliefs - this would be the group of emergents addressed by the recent CCOF letter).
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/pastors/1372534.html
Stetzer says in his last paragraph,
“This is an important moment in the emerging church. Many “emerging” evangelicals are distancing themselves from the revisionist leaders. Papers have been presented, publishing relationships have been altered, and many in the blogosphere are questioning the ecumenical nature of new partnerships. That’s good. Let’s affirm the good, look to the Scriptures for answers to the hard questions, and, yes, let’s graciously disagree when others hold views contrary to our best scriptural understanding of God, Bible and church.”
Don is stepping down because he is too busy? Shouldn’t his first priority be the church and the sheep in the church….pleeeease! Something smells FISHY?
How do we get an audit of the past 2 yrs at Laguna, to see where all the money went? According to the leaders, there was over 350,000 in savings when Don took over?
I got an idea, how bout send McClure to ABQ, send Heitzig to Marin and send Sabolick back!
Sojourner, I am not a Catholic but I for one am offended when you call the Catholic Church a harlot and a whore.
Felix,
It is so out of line to accuse Don of stealing money. Whatever you think of him he has never been a thief. These types of accusations get us no where. Lets see how Don handles his departure.
disillusioned theological student
Revelation 17 speaks of Mystery Babylon the Great the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth. The harlot Babylon is a personification of spiritual corruption and wickedness. Which is what is being seen in some of today’s so called christianity by different denominations, and which is moving toward its ultimate goal through the embracing of the Emergent Church and Ecumenicalism that Unitarian type philosophical doctrine. How else is it possible to become this harlot Babylon if not through a unification of all denominations into one embrace all religious system? Is it not what we are seeing right before our eyes through such systems as these?
The ecumenical coucil is an assembly in the Roman Catholic Church presided over by the pope, aimed at achieving universal christian unity. So I’m not sure what you mean there is a pure ecumenicalism and a pure catholicism.
Can you explain what exactly is “eternal conscious torment for the unbelieving”? Is this a way of defining Hell? A conscoius torment? This is what Dave Hunt believes, in a conscious torment not a literal hell.
What exactly is reactionist conspiracy theories? What conspiracy theories?
dsl
The Roman Catholic Church is not a member of the World Council of Churches.
If you are talking about the seven Ecumenical Councils I should tell you that the world “ecumenical” as used in this instance does not mean what some of you seem to think it means.
This is as big as Garner Ted Armstrong being rejected by his father Herbert Armstrong as the designated replacement head of the Worldwide Church of God some years back.
Interesting article by the Sr Smith against his own perceptions of the emergent church. I suppose that I have somewhat of a different read on the emergent church. I wonder where Smith got his notions about the emergent church movement.
Perhaps from several sources… One that I know of is former Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa associate pastor Chuck Mettier who is into reading the Egyptian desert fathers and has an appreciation for icons. It has been said that Chuck Jr has a similar interest in icons.
My second thought is that I wonder how different all of this is from Smith’s critics back in the 60s and 70s? Would they have echoed the same holiness notions when it came to “those dirty hippies” that Smith now does against the emergent church?
As to the charge of universalism I’m not sure again where Smith gets that notion from.
I’d love to dialog about Smith’s recent diatribe on the emergent church. I wonder if it isn’t more just a direct rejection of Chuck Jr? I know that Chuck Jr has always been off from his dad. Jr is old earth, for instance.
Interesting article at amazon on Jr
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801065437/102-3814612-9843323?v=glance&n=283155
Chuck Smith Jr. is doing exactly what his father did before him — reaching out to young people in a way that makes the gospel relevant to their lives. But reaching youth today is dramatically different from what it was in the 1970s, when Chuck Smith Sr. was out in California launching what became the Calvary Chapel network of churches and making all us East Coast Jesus Freaks want to hitch a ride out there to join him. For one thing, Smith was pretty much “it”; we didn’t have the Internet or any way of connecting without like-minded souls back in the day. His son is having a much better time connecting with young people, and one of the young(er) people he has connected with is YWAM worker Matt Whitlock.
Smith Sr. preached a message of radical transformation to the beat of rock music. Smith Jr.’s message is no less radical, but in this book there’s less preaching, more listening, and a whole lot of not-knowing. The certainty of modern evangelicalism is learning to accommodate the uncertainty of postmodernism, and how that plays out in real life is modeled in the format of FREQUENTLY AVOIDED QUESTIONS. In response to the question that forms the title of each chapter, Whitlock offers his take on the problem the question poses based on his experience and that of his peers. Smith then responds to Whitlock from the perspective of one who has been on the journey of faith a bit longer — but never in an “I’m older, so I’m naturally wiser” way. Smith is obviously grappling with the same questions, especially with regard to his ministry to postmoderns.
Does this have the potential to split Calvary Chapel?
Will people follow Jr into a Calvary Chapel Jr(tm)?
——–
As to Smith Sr’s rejection of incense, he would do well to read the prophecy of Malachi about the church:
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
This leads me to ask “Why isn’t Calvary Chapel burning incense?” if it is a sign of a place where “the name of God is great”.
Felix, I agree with Sam. No one I know has ever accused Don of stealing. I know guys on staff at Laguna and Don isn’t a thief.
More from Jackie Alnor on this…
http://www.apostasyalert.org/CBCintro.htm
Sounds like they have been beating this drum for quite some time.
They are still on the calvarychapel website…
http://www.calvarychapel.com/CAPOBEACH/staff_smith_chuck.htm
Maybe the so-called webservants are behind the curve on this one.
Sam,
I apologize, I was not saying that he stole the money! I am just curious because I know our church is struggling and I was wondering where all the money went? As a tither, I think we should be able to see where it went the past 18months or so!
Chuck Sr seems to have been calling Capo Beach a “fellowship” for quite some time. From Harvest…
from
http://www.ocweekly.com/features/features/the-first-jesus-freak/19081/
And Chuck Jr is in a position to know since he’s seen them all come and go through his dad’s ministry.
Why don’t the set out position papers on proper ways to treat other believers and pastors being accountable? Or maybe I am missing something. As for the Catholic Church being the “Harlot” I don’t know if I can believe that. Rome cant figure out which hand is doing what and the Catholic Church is viewed as a joke in many parts of Europe and has been for some time. Maybe not by some governments for political reasons but the Hay day of the Catholic Church is gone. Back in the past the lawsuits never would have even been filed and there never ever would have been a conviction .monarchies in Europe tolerated the pope if it suited their needs but if it did not and the Secular government would thumb its nose at Rome or go a sack it if need be. Only when the church held the secular sword, and used it did other governments fear it.
Of course this is just an opinion and I may well be wrong.
DSL wrote…
How else is it possible to become this harlot Babylon if not through a unification of all denominations into one embrace all religious system?
Before I start looking for candidate in the church as Babylon, I’d be tempted (if I was a dispensationalist) to be looking at Islam. They are a better candidate than the Catholic church.
Sorry to offend you Severe Mercy, but we cannot whitewash history and paint the Catholic Church any other color but red, due to the innocent blood it has spilled since it began.
The Mother of Harlots must be Rome. I don’t know of any other city that sits on seven hills except for Rome. Revelation 17:9, says; “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.” She is arrayed in scarlet and purple. Think of the colors of all the Cardinals and the church itself. It is filled with gold, pearls and precious stones. The Vatican has vast quantities of riches! It has endless treasures stored up.
The great harlot also sits on many waters (so she is a world wide entity) (Revelation 17:1).
She has a golden cup (chalice) full of abominations and she’s drunk on the blood of the martyrs. The crusades killed and carried off many Jews and the inquisition killed millions of true Bible believing Christians. In the Tribulation, many more will be martyred. I cannot help but wonder if Islam will not hold hands with Catholics. Both have prayer beads, both have a Mary connection (the woman portrayed as standing on the Crecent moon). I know that the Catholic religion is often mixed with the native religions such as Voodoo and no one bats an eye. They call on the saints (the Loa) and the “saints” possess them.
Foxes Book of Martyrs tells of some of the atrocities done in the past. There’s no way to paint it pretty.
I have relatives who are Catholic. After an entire lifetime of going to the Catholic church every Sunday, my aunt asked me how she could know if she is going to go to heaven. She had no idea that she could be sure. What a great opportunity for me. I told her.
Michael,
I think Smith’s statement removes any ambiguity about who is still in charge!
Chuck Smith is still calling the shots as head of the CCOF.
Some might claim that Chuck has enough control to remove a pastor for emergent church ministries to the pomo’s but not enough control to fix the ethical crisis?
Don’t make that mistake. Smith is in control and will hold on to control until the day they pull his plug.
Sojourner, I perceive you are a Dispensationalist.
Many people read that part of the book of Revelation as having already happened. In this view, pagan Rome is Babylon (as the Bible says it is, elsewhere) and Nero is anti-christ. St. John wrote Revelation to warn the Christians of the coming disaster when pagan Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. This fits in well with parts of the Olivet Discourse.
Not wanting to argue with you, just presenting another viewpoint.
God bless you,
Severe Mercy
100th,
I wonder too where Chuck Smith got his thoughts on the emerging church. I also wonder who wrote the CCOF article on the emergent church.
Each of the points in the document I’m sure are true of churches within the emerging movement, but I wonder if Calvary hasn’t built itself a straw man which doesn’t quite exist in the real world. Sure, those points are easy to understand, but I wonder if Chuck Sr. or whomever wrote the document understands it enough to have given an accurate picture.
I have a copy of Frequently Avoided Questions - I can do a review if anyone’s interested (or at least give my take). I’d like to reread it first, though, before doing so.
Chuck’s invitation:
I love that quote. It is an invitation to correct Chuck and the other CC pastors.
Lectio divina (meaning sacred reading), involves taking a page of Scripture and reading it over and over again.
Okay, I am shocked that anyone would do Lectio divina! Jesus said, “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.” - Matthew 6:7-8
That tells me that according to Jesus, prayer should not be repetitive. It tells me the heathen pray in repetitions. It tells me that God is expecting us to ask him for things when we pray (not just recite words over and over.) Then Jesus gave an example of how to pray (called the Lord’s prayer). It was never meant to be recited word for word over and over. It was an example. We would not talk to our earthly father in vain repetitions!
I know I am dropping a bomb.
That’s okay Severe Mercy! It’s okay to disagree!!
100th…. Since you believe Chuck Smith is headed for hell wouldn’t it be better served for him to be saved than to correct his heretical teachings. I also believe you should provide a list of other CC Pastors you believe are not saved so the good people here could pray for them correctly. Why pray to give Chuck discernment or wisdom if he is not saved??
Hi Sojourner, thanks for the gracious answer. About repetitive prayer. Let me say first of all that "praying the Scriptures" is a time-honored practice. I have often be advised by Baptist and CC pastors that if I am having trouble praying to find a Psalm and read it prayerfully. We are also told that everytime we read a passage of scripture again and again we get something new out of it. So putting these two concepts together sounds ok to me and if we do it sincerely it is not "vain" reptition and might be profitable. As far as not repeating prayers, I gotta tell you that most of the prayers I heard among Evangelicals are very repititious and sometimes even vain. How many prayers have you heard that start out "Oh Lord, we just wanna thank you for this day and now Lord we just wanna lift up ____ to you (insert name) and ask that You would richly bless him…."
These prayers are fine, too.
Severe Mercy
I believe that Revelation was written in the 90’s, 29 years after the sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Sojourner and 100th
A former Palestinian terrorist named Walid Shoebat, a Muslim turned Christian, chronicles in his book WHY I LEFT JIHAD ,details on this subject from his perspective as a former Muslim. The “people of the Prince who is to come” sacked Jerusalem. So he looked into what people groups comprised the Roman Legion. They were drawn from the countries in the local eastern Med. from present day Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Egypt (as a partail list). All today are Muslim countrues. He notes that all nations falling under God’s judgement in Armageddon and the End are today Muslim. The Prince wasn’t there, he was still to come, but his ancestors were.
He also sites the great Muslim Ottoman Empire as the beast recieving the fatal wound by Britian just long enough to have Israel inserted back into the heart of Islamic lands. Then the beast recovers. This could never have happened if the empire had remained alive, or today as it has revived. I can see the present possibilities very intriguing. And the “Christian” Whore of Rome rides it, for a time…
After the knee bows to Caesar, there is absolutely nothing one is not allowed to do in Roman Catholocism,, except worship Jesus without their “help”.
I hear you DSL!
I’m slow on the post!
I mean’t 30 years. I’m not that accurate!
Hi James, the date of the authorship of Revelation is up for debate with credible evidence for both the early and the later dates.
Interesting discussion..
I read the review on amazon of Chuck Jr’s book and found it decidedly disturbing.
Smith Sr. preached a message of radical transformation to the beat of rock music. Smith Jr.’s message is no less radical, but in this book there’s less preaching, more listening, and a whole lot of not-knowing.
We all need to be good listeners for sure.. which is one reason I stop by here… but less preaching and a lot of not-knowing??
Not a good thing at all. I’d prefer to hear a bible study that provides real answers based on the Truth…
The 1st Century church could not be said to have been unconcerned about those around them - but the Gospel and belief in Christ as Saviour is the only way to be saved.
And that’s never been a popular message - (gotten a lot of people killed) which is why is dangerous to try and make the Gospel palatable by watering it down.
I noted some references earlier to hell.. The older I get the more I wish there was no such thing. But it’s existence is also the Truth.
Thank God He provided a Way to escape it!!
Third try-
The difference between 70 and 90 is only 20 years.
Somebody give me a calculator!
I read Frequently Avoided Questions. For those of you who haven’t read it, it consists of questions by a modern young man and answers by Jr. The young man’s questions sometimes made me ask myself if this kid was really a Christian but Jr’s answers were very orthodox. I give Jr credit for answering his questions in a kind, non-judgmental way.
One thing Jr. says that I agree with is that old-style apologetics doesn’t work very well on this generation. I can testify to this first hand. I used to team-teach Bible at the local CC high school until last year and we would try to prove Christianity was true by proving the Bible was true. We’d give a list of OT prophecies and show how they were fulfilled in the NT. This bored the kids to tear and made some of them angry. They were not even remotely impressed. But tell them a story about someone giving up everything for Jesus and they were all ears! They didn’t want to read about proofs they wanted to see the proof of Christ living in people. They were tired of lectures about creationism vs evolution- they wanted to see love in action. They were tired of being told good works equalled salvation by works. They aren’t even interested in that argument.
I’ve chatted with Jr. a bit about this and about other things. Jr. is a man who loves God with all his heart and wants to be like Jesus. (Chuck, if you are reading this it’s me, Xenia.)
I am not longer a Protestant and the Emergant Church is not an option for me. The desire to be like Jesus instead of just studying about Jesus- this is something I think we all long for in our hearts.
JJ wrote
“Just to baptize you into PP, here goes: you, DD are a liberal homo-friend, an unlover of the Word, who is trying to lead us into the one-world religion where Nicolae Carpathia, a gay Italian, will kill Jews. Welcome!”
People will always demonize what they do not understand. And it isn’t just Christians that do it. Liberal left-wingers do the same thing to evangelicals all the time. They don’t get it, so they act as if it doesn’t exist, or worse, they minimize religion dangerous mind-control. (And to be honest, who can blame them sometimes. Honestly… are there really people who think that Catholics are not Christians? Wow… the 21st century called asking you to join.)
Because people asked… our doc will be shown on October 29 on KQED out of San Francisco (which means none of you will probably see it unless in that area.) But, there is word that it is going national… which is cool. The dvd will be out that weekend, for sure. It is worth the watch, although I am totally biased but proud. Freaking proud. (And yes, I use that word all the time, even when I am praying.)
As for Mark Driscoll… that guy is a breath of fresh air, whether he wants to fight with the emergent church or not. I met him 5 years ago, and just went back to his church to play Frisbee a couple of months ago. He makes me laugh… which is always good. A very smart and well thought out pastor.
As for Jr. being removed from the roster, I doubt this means anything. 100th Sheep can’t be further from the point. How could this possibly matter to Chuck Jr. who for years has positioned himself as the outsider? How? Seems that pops just formalized what everybody already knows… that Jr. has always marched to his own drum… and offers a more experimental brand of Christianity than some are willing to believe is a good thing.
dd
SM,
The problem is Chuck is not orthodox he is the worst of Calvary. He has no accountability and no whim about changing doctrine. He experiments from the pulpit. He mocks his father in some sermons. Chuck is not one to be trusted. I have attened capo beach and it is not what it seems.
AXED
He does experiment, but it seems to me that all Protestants experiment.
Here’s a Jr. story told to me by a CC pastor who knew Jr well years ago. You know how Calvarys don’t tolerate babies in the auditorium. I guess they are allowed in Jr’s church. One Sunday when my pastor friend was in attendance a baby started crying. In your typical church the baby would be ushered out but in this case, Jr walked over to where the famility was sitting, picked up the baby, put him on his shoulder and finished his sermon carrying the now peaceful baby.
Ok, so this is a sappy story without theological merit but it was such a Christ-like gesture. People are starving for examples like this. If your churches aren’t demonstrating the love of Christ people will be very attracted to someone who does, even if his theology is unorthodox.
Severe Mercy,
Chuck is not what he seems.
I know him better than most.
He is just as abusive as any of the other calvary pastors. He has a problem telling the truth.
Axed
Hi Axed,
I am sorry to hear this.
Dear Severe,
I understand the lecture about apologetics.. I get tired too…:)
Kids do need to see real love. And a lot of times - they listen when someone their own age tells them about Jesus.. that’s how I came to the Lord.
The Bible came alive (or rather - it was already living - I wasn’t) and at that point - I couldn’t read or hear enough about it!!!
It’s one on one evangelism - really caring about them - and bringing them to hear the Word.
The desire we see reflected in the seeker friendly churches is well intentioned - no doubt. We want people to understand the Word - but dumbing it down won’t help people get it when they aren’t spiritually alive!
At some time - they need to hear the bottom line about the Gospel…
I recently heard a speaker who is President of a seminary. he said the school is running over with young kids “in love” with Jesus, but no spiritualand bibilical backbone.
Well said, Musings. I agree with you.
Anonymity,
That is because the have no church with a backbone to learn from.
The church has failed Gen X and Gen Y.
Axed
Anonymity,
Just as the baby boomers killed thier babies physically they have done thier best to do it spiritually.
Axed
Sorry - this is off topic - but there is a wierd advertisement below to remove hexes and jinxes fast???
It says God Answers Prayers - divinegracenow website - very strange - God’s blessing for sale??? Lots of Prayer Cloths and other junk..
Do Moderators have any control over those??
Some of you CC people are funny. The gatekeepers of what is Biblical, and who is or isn’t heretical. I don’t find it Biblical that CCs send money to a nation like Israel, who oppresses Christianity, so they can eventulally build a temple and blaspheme Christ, but I don’t call into question your place within the church.
Also, like someone said earlier, there are different views as to who the harlot of Revealation is. One of them is that the harlot is Israel. I know this will tweak your CC brains, but there are other views.
Now go back to reading Hunt and Missler.
I’ll be back later, after “meditating” on Scripture. God help me.
The adds are randomly generated.
I can block them if I see them we have a little control.
Axed
Thanks Axed
And blessings Severe!
JJ - pretty funny!
I’ll take the anti-semetic bait - but have to get going..
I sincerely look forward to your comment tomorrow…
Genesis 12:1-3 - I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.
Happy meditating…
JJ -
If I go back to reading Missler, won’t we be in a bomb shelter avoiding Nephilim?
Severe Mercy -
Thank you also for your gracious answer. I agree with a lot of what you said about prayer. Some of the typical prayer times with others in the church are basically torture. I must be really fiesty today. But some people go on and on and on and they call the Lord, “Lord” a hundred times in the prayer. Then there are the long flowery ones that are for the hearers and not the Lord!
I have no problem with someone reading a Psalm and then contemplating it quietly - thinking of each word, etc. That’s a great thing. But the problem I would see, is if someone were to use it like a mantra to become mindless and repetitive.
I wonder if phlebotomists ever have “Vein repetition?”
Hopefully I spelled that correctly.
Sorry if I have been sort of fiesty today! Something got me going! Maybe it was the paint fumes in here! We had our tub refinished today and it’s really stinky! (A good excuse, huh?)
To tell you the truth, Sojourner, I always enjoy your posts, even if I don’t agree with ‘em all the time. I always read them with great interest.
Did you have your tub refinished in a cool color?
When it comes to the emergent church, Chuck would do well to remember:
Mar 9:38-40 John said to Him,
“Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”
But Jesus said,
“Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us.
100th,
You know as well as I do that Calvary apologists have this elitist air about them…cutting edge of Christianity, we have the ‘pure milk of the Word’ and they don’t, blah blah blah.
I still want to know if Chuck Sr. wrote that document on his own or if someone else - Brodersen, perhaps - wrote it for him.
Hi Musing. That was a conversation between Abraham and God, was it not?
Now, let’s get back to who is going to Hell. ;+)
Well, obviously the Mother Whore of the Babylonian Laocedian Apostate Church with all its associated icons, candles and incense.
David DiSabatino (DD) wrote:
As for Jr. being removed from the roster, I doubt this means anything. 100th Sheep can’t be further from the point. How could this possibly matter to Chuck Jr. who for years has positioned himself as the outsider?
Could you let me know specifically what I said that you think was off the mark. Could it be meaningless to any son to hav his father come out and say in such a public fashion that he’s departed from the faith? No matter how far Jr has gone theologically that still has to sting on a personal level.
JJ May 23rd, 2006 6:52 pm wrote…
Some of you CC people are funny. The gatekeepers of what is Biblical, and who is or isn’t heretical. I don’t find it Biblical that CCs send money to a nation like Israel, who oppresses Christianity, so they can eventulally build a temple and blaspheme Christ, but I don’t call into question your place within the church.
Take it up a notch. Calvary Chapel raises money to bring Jews from the former Soviet Union to Israel so that a third of them can be slaughtered by the Anti-Christ.
BG,
Too funny! Don’t forget Mother Theresa and Jimmy Carter. They’re gonna fry, too.
“but we cannot whitewash history and paint the Catholic Church any other color but red, due to the innocent blood it has spilled since it began. ”
I agree with this we should not white wash history but there is enough blood to go around, if history shows one thing, when a faith community held the secular sword it used it, many times with a horible vengence.
Thanks Severe Mercy!
The tub is plain old white! But no more dings! I think I would have rather had the dings and not have to worry about the dogs getting into it and ruining the finish now. The husband wanted it to look nice! With three dogs in here, does anything look really nice? Not for long!!! They are good company though!
the mcclure departure will be most interesting….he has bored Laguna to death.. they are ready for a uplifting exciting change….. JOE JOE JOE…
brian - you are correct. See a few of the reformers, who turned right around and murdered the Anabaptists.
100th Sheep wrote:
“Could you let me know specifically what I said that you think was off the mark. Could it be meaningless to any son to hav his father come out and say in such a public fashion that he’s departed from the faith? No matter how far Jr has gone theologically that still has to sting on a personal level.”
Sure. You’re off the mark because the father and son have a relationship that is outside all of the nonsense that goes on within the institution. Jr. knows how an institution works, and that there are many people with itching ears, mouths and hands that are always trying to turn molehills into mountains.
Chuck Smith Sr. didn’t say that his son has departed from the faith. One of his cronies wrote a rather terse note outlining what they felt was an official stand against the “emergent movement.” If you have been on the inside of an institution, lots of things happen without the boss knowing… sometimes to his great chagrin.
Again… people are more than whatever their doctrinal statements are. I know the Pharisees among us would like to think that we are consistent theological beings who if they subscribe to succinct doctrinal beliefs and tenets… but we’re not. We’re flesh and blood people who are in a constant state of flux, trying to make sense of things as they move.
Think about the nonsensical things that you believed when you were first saved. I’ll bet there were more than a few weird doctrines that passed through your mind, and along the way, it was jettisoned. It is unfortunate that people believe the Bible offers a specific code or austere doctrinal statements that have been passed down from the early church. Truth be told, if we could resurrect someone from the early church they wouldn’t know what to do with contemporary Christianity. It has morphed and changed along some 21 centuries.
I would suggest that Chuck Sr. and Chuck Jr. represent two very different models of Christian understanding. Senior’s is of a bygone era, and Junior’s is one that is trying to find its legs. It is sad that people from the former style (fundamentalists) think it is their job to badmouth the new generation. Seems that is what happened long ago when the hippied came in to the sanctuaries with their drums and guitars. Today it is icons and candles. Same crap, different era.
And that the apostate watcher brigade don’t have the sense to see the cycles that are right under their noses… well, that is an entirely other post. The stupid you will always have among you.
=)
dd
Well it looks like my last post got a few reactions (sojourner and dsl…but I gotta say it looks like severe mercy picked up where I left off pretty well). The seven Ecumenical councils, including two at Nicea, two at Constantinople, one at Chalcedon, one at Ephesus, and one more that I can’t remember, had very little to do with the Church of Rome. They took place between 325 and ca. 750, during most of which time the Papacy was nothing like what it is today. Those councils were what gave us the classic creeds of the Church…that’s where the doctrines of Christ’s Deity, the Trinity, the hypostatic union of two natures in one person, and much of the rest of what we consider Orthodox theology was first clearly stated by the Church. That is what I mean when I speak of a “pure ecumenicism”…simple Christian unity.
Sojourner…yes, Catholic means universal. And the apostle’s creed also says, “I believe in the Holy Catholic Church.” Even Protestant theology has historically acknowledged the concept of the universal church (as opposed to the local church). The Reformers all spoke of a “catholic spirit” as a good thing in this sense. The word does not in itself denote universalism…and if it did it certainly wouldn’t apply to the Church at Rome.
That being said, I should state quite plainly that I subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which while affirming that there is such a thing as a “catholic and universal church” which is made up of all the elect of all ages, nevertheless calls the pope of Rome the antichrist. I don’t want to be misunderstood on this point. I simply want to advocate clarity and caution in our statements on the subject. I do not support the agenda of Rome or the agenda of the World Council of Churches or any of that crap. I simply think that there are better weapons in the arsenal of truth than hasty generalizations and buzz words ripped from their proper contexts (i.e. catholic, ecumenical).
And about Rev. 17…there is a stronger case than most Calvary (or ex-Calvary) people realize for the view that Revelation WAS written prior to the fall of Jerusalem, and that it has little or nothing to do with a supposed future one-world religion (among other things). One very simple interpretation of Rev. 17 is that the harlot is representative of all false religion. Is reading the modern ecumenical movement into that chapter really true to the “literal” hermeneutic championed by dispensationalists?
dsl
regarding eternal conscious torment, it is simply a common phrase by which we distinguish the orthodox position on hell from that of the annihilationists. I don’t know what Dave Hunt believes exactly on that subject, because, quite frankly, I cannot stand his work. However, if you are getting at the question of whether there will be “literal” flames in hell or whatever kind of nonsense people are speculating about now, I’ll say sure, I believe the flames are literal…just not physical. That’s the classical Augustinian/Calvinistic position, for which I can refer you to Francis Turretin.
Morning All-
I have a ton of work today but will try and keep up.
So with the Emergent Church thing - the main CC question is
a) is or will the Emergent Church de-value the Word of God?
b) Will it (or is it) introducing more ecumenical ideas?
c) If it devalues’ teh Word of God and introduces ecumenical ideology, then will not the final outcome be a devaluing of the cross of Jesus Christ?
Those are the questions that there is concern about.
Does anyone thing that it’s wrong to be concerned about these things?
Lord I hope not.
good post, DD.
Mr. Fusco: "Does anyone thing that it’s wrong to be concerned about these things?" Not at all. Some people just want to follow who they want to follow. And not anyone else, of course. One of my favorite writers: Emerging "Christianity" - Part 2 art 2 From Gnostic Roots to Occult Revival by Berit Kjos - April 2006 See Part 1: Breaking Out of the box and Slandering Jesus Articles Home Notice all the live links below A flood of mystical temptations is sweeping through churches and culture. They beckon us "let go" of the old inflexible Word and explore the new ways of the world and spirit. Naturally, a growing consensus of "open-minded" seekers claim that God’s truth is "too divisive" to fit their new vision of global unity and experiential spirituality. “It used to be that Christian institutions and systems of dogma sustained the spiritual life of Christians. Increasingly, spirituality itself is what sustains everything else," wrote Pastor Brian D. McLaren, a "key figure" in the Emerging Church and author of A New Kind of Christian. "Alan Jones is a pioneer in reimagining a Christian faith that emerges from authentic spirituality. His work stimulates and encourages me deeply.”1 [Emphasis added] 1 [Emphasis added]Do you wonder what McLaren means by "authentic spirituality?" Or by "reimagining a Christian faith?" I did. So I read Reimagining Christianity. In it, Alan Jones, the Episcopal Dean (priest) of San Francisco’s gothic Grace Cathedral, offers some provocative clues:
Wrong! There is an objective authority: our Sovereign God, Creator of the universe. He has revealed His will and authority through His Word! But, as in Old Testament days, today’s masses "love evil more than good!" (Psalm 52:3) Despising His authority, they deny the only Truth that can set us free! Their earthly destiny is summarized in 2 Timothy 3:7: "…always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."\ (Psalm 52:3) Despising His authority, they deny the only Truth that can set us free! Their earthly destiny is summarized in 2 Timothy 3:7: "…always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."\ http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/emerging-2.htm
"JJ May 23rd, 2006 6:52 pm wrote… Some of you CC people are funny. The gatekeepers of what is Biblical, and who is or isn’t heretical. I don’t find it Biblical that CCs send money to a nation like Israel, who oppresses Christianity, so they can eventulally build a temple and blaspheme Christ, but I don’t call into question your place within the church." The Bible says that Israel will turn to the Messiah. SO it’s not our place to be anti-Semitic and cynical about things other people choose to invest their money in. It is our place to pray for both Jews and Gentiles. Who wrote the Bible OT and NT? largely Jews with the exception of Luke. What was the early church comprised of? JEWS. What’s your real problem JJ and 100th? Think God has forgotten Israel? HE HAS NOT. And you’re not especially enlightened for thinking otherwise! cali
My name is David and I am an assistant pastor at a Calvary Chapel. I know many pastors from other Calvary Chapels and know by their fruit that they are sincere and are all about Jesus. Do I question some of them? Of course I do. I also know many pastors from other denominations whom I love and respect. But I also know of some of those I also question.
I came to Christ at a Nazarene church. I thank God for my Nazarene brothers. They told me about Jesus. Shortly after my father became a Christian through a Baptist Church. He felt the Lord’s calling to the ministry and persued Bible college and where the Lord wanted him to serve Him. When I was 17 I had the priviledge of going on a mission trip with Teen Missions International. I spent the 9 summers with them traveling as a team leader and missionary to various places around the world. While at Teen Missions I felt the Lord calling me to full time ministry. I moved to Arizona and attended Arizona College of the Bible. I recieved a BA in Bible. While there I was on staff with a Bible Church in the youth group. I had a wonderful experience there. I was strugling though. As I read about the church in Acts I was confused. I did not see the same heart change and excitement for Jesus. That was until I was introduced to a Calvary Chapel.The Pastor had a passion for the lost and also a passion to teach the word. It was the first Sunday night service that I have seen packed. The church was packed a half an hour before with the friendliest loving people I knew. The teaching was straight from the word and the worship was powerful. I could not hold back the tears. I thought I found Heaven. I spent the next 6 months there observing. People were getting saved weekly. People were getting baptized on a regular basis. WOW! I am at a small Calvary here in VA. We are not seeing the same results tat I saw in Phoenix. But I have total peace that God has called me to serve Jesus here at a Calvary Chapel. Not because I have found a perfect church, but becaues I have found a church that teaches about a perfect Jesus. We are all God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus.
Please don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that Calvary Chapel is perfect. We are young as a movement. Yes we do make mistakes. We all can make inprovements. Including you. Show me a church that does’t. You may not agree with how Calvary does things. But , if you are truly a Christian, you can’t deny that we are a part of your Christian family. We believe in Jesus. We love Jesus. We believe that the only way to God is through Jesus. We believe that we can do nothing to recieve salvation except to call on Jesus and confess our sins, repent and turn from them. We believe that by grace we are saved. Salvation is a gift from God. We believe the whole Bible is God’s inspired, God breathed word. We believe in the fundamentals of the faith. If Calvary Chapel did not teach these thing I would not be here. So please be careful how you judge your brothers. Spend your time questioning those who claim to be Christians but are not teaching the gospel as Jesus intended it to be taught.
I understand the confussion with CCABQ and Laguna Beach. Things happen when men are involved, we mess up, God forgives, when we ask for His forgiveness. My point is this. Pastors at Calvary are not the only ones who are human and make mistakes. I have been through 2 church splits at Baptist churches where they were board run. Sin was there. Hate was there. The devil had a hay day at both places. There is no excuse for sin in leaders. If pastors are in sin at Calvary Chapels or at Baptist Churches God will take care of them whether there is a board or not. Look at King David. Jesus is the head.
My thoughts on the emerging church. Let’s be creative with our approach to the lost without forsaking the truth of the gospel. If a church claims to be of Christ but preaches a different gospel be warned. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father except through Him. (JESUS) There is a large church in America that says they are Christian but it denies the deity of Christ. This church teaches that we can earn our own planet and one day if we are good enough, we can become a God or just like God. This is a lie from the devil himself.
I read the comment that Calvary at its begining was like the emerging church today. Not So! Calvary Never forsake JESUS. the gospel or the Word.
Why are you wasting your time attacking Calvary Chapel, your brothers in Christ. Why don’t you take a stand against those who are against Jesus. Instead of attacking us, why don’t you pray for us. And we for you. I am refering to you out there who are a part of the body of Christ.
Each church that trully belongs to Jesus should look for creative ways to reach the lost. In that sense we all should emerge, but not at the cost of forsaking the word, the gospel, or Jesus. We need to be gentle as doves but wise as serpents.
Brothers and sisters, in the name of Jesus, please stop this nonsence of attacking members of your own family. If you are bitter toward someone in a Calvary Chapel, forgive them. ANd those of you who are at a Calvary and you are bitter toward someone at another church your responcibility is to forgive them. Don’t hold a grudge, Don’t let this affect your own ministry. If you don’t forgive you are just letting the devil win. We all need to examine our hearts. The Bible is very clear about when we partake in comunion that if we don’t examine ourselves we can bring sickness upon our selves, even death! Why would you do that? Brother and sister I love you in in the love of Jesus. I hurt for you. Let us spend our time and focus on our true enemy. The Devil! Our time here is to short. His return is soon. There are too many lost souls out there. Let us not lose focus.
When we who are in Christ get to Heaven, we will see that we were each wrong somewhere in our theology. We will see that in spite of us God through His grace still used us to build up His Kingdom. Praise the name of Jesus.
God Bless You ALL!
Let is unify together in the name of Jesus, stand on His Word and proclaim the gospel. Jesus died, was burried, and rose again. Praise the name of Jesus.
David Joseph
David, This bitter dove is for you. Thanks for the left-turn from admonishing us not to attack CC, but then going after emerging churches. Some of these people are the most thought-provoking, Christ-like people I’ve met. Not because they go "verse-by-verse" and can rattle off Scripture, but because they seek to live the Sermon on the Mount.
David: Sorry to rain on your parade, but the very Calvary you mentioned and hold in high esteem has a string of abuses tied to it that I could write a book on. A very fine facade for the visitors, but if you were involved with leadership for awhile, your heart would be aching. Keep serving in VA.
David’s post got me to thinking…am I hearing an attitude that says, "As long as the truth/Jesus is being taught nothing else should matter." If truth/Jesus is taught in an unhealthy atmosphere/church by the very pastor who fosters the unhealthy atmosphere, how then can others respect and trust him enough to hear the words of truth/Jesus being spoken? Sincere question.
David Joseph
You obviously have a deep passion for our Lord and your heart is good. I enjoyed reading your letter.
Many people who post here have been deeply hurt by those in leadership positions. Can you comment on some of these issues, please:
• You mentioned, “When we ask for His forgiveness…” Some people have made drastic mistakes and have not come forward to ask for forgiveness; and, they will not even acknowledge that these mistakes were made—scattering the flock.
• When Matthew 18 is only used by one party and not both parties involved.
• When people who are involved in a dispute are not acknowledged through the proper channels the church has established.
Your thoughts are sincerely appreciated.
May your ministry be blessed!
I just thought of something after reading David’s post. There needs to be an "About Us" thread or posting of some kind people can refer to when they want to know what this blog is all about, why Michael started it, and what Michael and the moderators hope to accomplish through it. Because after reading through David’s post, I’m getting the impression that he thinks everyone here is bitter against CC and needs to forgive and move on. The issues addressed and discussed on this blog are complex and can’t simply be addressed by forgiving _______ and moving on. Sometimes when evil and unrighteousness are going down you can’t shut up. You must speak out.
David, I also wanted to say welcome and blessings to you. I think it’s a mistake to compare the emerging church to Mormonism. Also, not all of those churches deny the basics of the Christian faith. I think they’re still in the process of defining themselves - therefore why Chuck Smith Jr. and many of the emerging movement’s leaders define it as a conversation. You may want to check out Chuck Jr.’s post here from a few days ago, and also go to Wikipedia and do a search for "emerging church." Other than that, thanks for your take and testimony and I hope you’ll come around again.
Ironic Chuck Smith Sr quotes:
And I think of how tragic it is and what a poor witness to the world that the church is so divided and so fractured. Now that is not an indictment against denominations. I see the purpose of denominations; I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is when people get denominational, when they cannot see the whole church and the whole body of Christ, but they see their own little segment only and exclude the rest.
“and ye shall know them by their fruits”
this applies to the pompous pride of “Big Guy” &
“JJ” & “DD” & “axed” and the like who don’t know what there taking about. Their foolish arrogant pride has severed their relationship with God. Moreover, whether they even have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is indeed doubtful. I have been attending and served the Lord at CCCM for 15 years. And not ONE (1) OUNCE OF TRUTH is in what they are saying about Pastor Chuck Sr. or about Calvary Chapel. Remember your sin WILL find you out. Your lies come not from the LORD, but from the father of all lies - Satan. “Thou shalt not touch mine anointed saith the LORD”. Read 1 John.
Truth,
I’m awake and listening. Care to elaborate?
Oh Truuuuuuuth,
I’m waiting….
Hey sunshine,
I’ll give you another 10 minutes. In the meantime, mull over these questions…
Are CC pastors suing one another?
Where is Oden Fong? You were around in the early 1990’s, right?
Who occupies more CC pulpits - adulterers, or Calvinists?
Okay Truth,
Thanks for playing. I’ll be at CCCM this Sunday night, standing during the sing-along. Will you be tackling me?
If “the Lord’s anointed” was untouchable, Paul would have been toast for rebuking Peter (see Galatians 2).
Ironic Chuck Smith Sr quotes:
“And I think of how tragic it is and what a poor witness to the world that the church is so divided and so fractured. Now that is not an indictment against denominations. I see the purpose of denominations; I have no problem with that. The only problem I have is when people get denominational, when they cannot see the whole church and the whole body of Christ, but they see their own little segment only and exclude the rest.”
Just goes to show ya that not even the mighty Chuck Smith can escape hypocrisy.
Taking a break from my sabbatical to report on my reading project. I’m reading
A Generous Orthodoxy: Why I Am a Missional, Evangelical, Post/Protestant, Liberal/Conservative, Mystical/Poetic, Biblical, Charismatic/Contemplative, Fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, Green, Incarnational, Depressed-yet-Hopeful, Emergent, Unfinished CHRISTIAN by Brian McLaren.
I’ve only moved on a few pages up to p. 121, but the book has all of a sudden started getting really good and hitting a nerve. Maybe a better way to put it would be scratching an itch.
When McLaren talks about Missional thinking/living he’s really on to something powerful. He has a pair of diagrams.
The first one shows three circles starting with ME in the big circle, progressing to CHURCH in the smaller circle and then ending in a very small circle of WORLD. This is the self centered view most of us have as Christians. Salvation is all about saving us from Hell.
The second diagram has three concentric circles. The biggest circle is WORLD, the smaller circle inside is CHURCH and the smallest circle inside that is ME. That’s missional thinking.
A pretty powerful way to look at things.
(I am posting this here since PP has no specific emerging church section that I can find in this BLOG).
Michael,
Can you please start an “Emerging Church” section so that CBC is not broadbrushed by our dialogs? Chuck Jr has publicly stated that he is not part of the emergent conversation. That was part of CCOF’s sad broadbrush, along with the Alnor vendetta.
100th - Your report is spot on and I was also inspired by McLaren’s book! Rock on!
Sheep,
Why does McLaren put the state of Maine (ME) in the circles?
–> Name the congregation contest
Michael,
Who’s Shellback? Is the above post a hack?
-g
Grendal - I’ve asked Michael about that…he said he was checking into it
It’s very interesting to see “The Emerging Church” attacked so vehemently by those from a denomination (word used despite the strained gnats spin on the word “denomination”) which was accused of many of the same things forty years ago. Interestingly the mainstream denominations/churches of the time were in a very similar structure and had similar influence and power to that of CC churches now.
This “new” movement is bringing some good things to the body that all believers should embrace, a real commitment to humanitarian causes, a welcoming of all sinners to the church, a commitment to transparency and honesty, and powerful tools to reach those outside the fold. Sounds to me like things that might fall in the WWJD category.
It would be wise to consider whether or not pride, protectionism, and exclusivity is influencing some of this thinking. Or even perhaps embarrassment and shame when it comes to the Frisbee topic. Discernment anyone?
One question, do you actually think there are more hypocrites, more sinners, more fuzzy doctrine, more misplaced leaders, more mistakes made and more of a lack of God’s hand in the Emerging Church movement than in Calvary Chapels?
Personally, I have been and and am now being blessed by both movements, despite the unavoidable shortcomings found in all organizations run by men.
Calvary Chapel Gulf Breeze FL has its problems too with Pastors saying that their job is to protect Pastor John. They think that they are the only place where the true gospel is preached. It has become a weird blend of arminian, dispensational, freewill theology. Very insensitive to the concerns of the congregation,
Well, I know that this is an old web sitek, so I hope that some one besides me is still reading it. I am a poor speller and rely too much on spell check so please forgive mis spellings. I started attending CCCM when it was a circus tent. What a blessing it was !!! I come from a pastoral family, my dad was a pastor, both grandfathers and many uncles, we were Assembly of God, when I started attending CC we were Nazarene and I was quickly out cast from the Nazarene church for attending CC. What a wonderful experience that was, a Pastor (Chuck SR) actually being more concerned with teaching the BIBLE than getting caught up in the turmoil and arguing of the “church”. When CC built the building it now has the biggest argument (or one of them) was people were coming in bare footed, and getting the new carpet dirty, how wonderful was Chuck’s reply, that if the carpet kept people out of attending church, the carpet would be ripped up!!! That ended that argument! I know that there are no perfect churchs, because there are no perfect people, but how sad I am to learn of this divison in CC. I have been gone from CC for a number of years, I returned to Chuck JR church in Capo in 91. What a wonderful shepard he is to his flock ! Although I dont have a personal relationship with him out side of the church I know that he has a wonderful heart that truly seeks to see Jesus and leads us to see him too! If it had not been for Chuck Jr, I think I would have given up on the “Christian” church long ago. Chuck is a wonderful loving, devoted and educated child of God and has done many wonderful things. It really hurts to read of everyone speculating on his and his father’s relationship, I pray that it is stronger than ever, I know from growing up in the church that even the closest of church elders and board members cannot really know what goes on in the pastor’s family behind closed doors. The speculation isjust gossip. IT do nothing to edify the body or Christ. The divisions in Calvary break my heart—WHERE is the church that started out in the 60s and 70s can anyone tell me. I am unchurched right now and have been since 95. (I moved out of the area for one reason–I moved to Hollywood–) moved back into Long Beach 18 months ago, that is when I learned about Chuck Jr. It seems here that people are very quick to condem anyone that takes a different look than theirs, but that was the way it was when CC started. As far as the Catholic Church goes, I believe that any church that teachs and follow the doctrines of the Holy Bible are of God, and ther are some Catholic churches that do, I have attended them. I don’t have a problem with people confessing their sins to a Pries, there were more than a few time that I was asked/instructed to confess my sins to a church preacher, elder etc and YES this did happen even at CC Costa Mesa!
When I was seeking the gift of speaking in tongues, a CC preacher told me just to repeat what he was saying, soon I would be able to do it on my own. Adultry, yes, I found about about the facts of life at a very tender age of 8 because myself and a friend of mine walked in on an Assembly of God pastor doing the deed with the church secretary Sunday afternoon after the sermon and eveyone left, in no less a chuch pew!!!I could go on and on–but I won’t, just want to remind you that God will be the final judge, and as Chuck Sr always said, where God leads, God will provide, so lets see what the provisions are before we condem. I do not attend a chuch and very honestly after learning about all the divisons in CC am happy I don’t . I love Jesus with all my heart and truly belive in the BIBLE totally and literally, ( yes I am a fundamenalist — I gues)
but I fellow ship with friends and co-workers and we share. I am A Christian a lousy one perhaps, but still a Christian. ANY group of people that do not teach love and do not teach the Bible are not of God, that is my opinion. Also as Chuck SR always taught us “hate the sin, but love the man” it seems that everyone has lost sight of that. How it grieves my heart to see that these divisions have come to Calvary, how some hypocripsy has entered in and what a lack of forgiving and love there seems to be for any thing that cannot be understood, or is not main stream. I do not thing that incense, icons or matra are a neccessary part of worship,and yet I do not read any where in the Bible where it is a sin, ( I have read the Bible several times and several versions of it) I just think this is man’s judgement, just like the Assembly of God at one time damned anyone who went to movies, dances, public beachs, bowling alley etc. Just man’s judgement, not God’s. How sad we allow man’s shallow judgement to divide us. If anyone is interested there are some BIG disagreements that I have with the Catholic church, such as praying to Saints, and degrees of sin, that why I am not Catholic. My prayer it that we stop judging each other, let God do that, it will happen soon enough, pray for the unification of not just CC but all Bible beliving churches and their leaders and also the layman. Christian’s have a tough enough time in this world to be condeming each other. Maybe some of you think I am off the mark and just don’t understand, and that maybe so, I am pretty simple, if God said it I believe it, If it is in the Bible I believe it. Just as a side note, God DOES perform miracles even today, I know that HE did for me, last year (May 2007) I was found to have a 10″ inch tumor on my ovaries (small 5′1 116 pounds) and abnormal tissue in my left breast, I was sent to the lead specialist OBY Onogologist at UCI and Kasier, they believed it was Cancer and I had all the classical symptoms of late stage ovarian cancer which is quite deadly. I immediately called all my Christin ( and non Christian) friends and family and asked for prayer and also from several churches in my area. When they did the bioipsy the DR from UCI ( the re-known specialist in this field) thought it was Cancer, the ;DR fro Kaiser could not find Cancer, the biopsy was sent to Havard and Praise GOD–it was NOT cancer, so God does heal. ) I told both my DRs from day 1 that I beleived GOD would heal me and heal me through them). After waiting 2 months for the final diagnoises he did. Thankj God, just wanted to share that to anyone that need proof of modern day miracles. !!! In closing does anyone know how I can contact Chuck Jr. I would love to share this with him, also Mark Presley (from CC Costa Mesa, but he left in the 90s) and how is Pastor Romaine doing. If you have the answer to this please contact me at CamPaam@AOL.com. Thanks for letting me share.
An CCer from the Tent days.
Just an explanation to the above. I credit Pastor Chuck Smith SR, for giving me an excellent education and believe in the Bible and Christian experience, I do not regret any of my time there. I Credit Chuck Smith JR for giving me a reason to believe in the church and church family again. Without both of them I would probably be missing out on the wonderful grace and love of our Lord Jesus because as a young teen ager I was very disappointed in what I knew as a church. Also, like CC taught me, and I feel this should be expanded to the “leaders” as well, if you are looking at me as a perfect example of a Christina, your sights are too low, look up, look to Jesus. Love one another and lift each other up in prayer and not condemation.
MLD!!
Great to see ya!
And also with you!
