While I was sleeeping, the night shift was working overtime…
Behold The Bitter Dove TM award!
I believe Buster gets credit for creating this token of appreciation for those who use the word "bitter" to describe the posters here.
It’s beautiful…
While I was sleeeping, the night shift was working overtime…
Behold The Bitter Dove TM award!
I believe Buster gets credit for creating this token of appreciation for those who use the word "bitter" to describe the posters here.
It’s beautiful…
how mature
OOOOOOOOOOOO
Maybe you should have said ‘How bitter”.
We have a winner !
Here’s the big one:
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9778/bdovec1s6gb.jpg
Michael,
Thank you for portraying the heart of many of those in Costa Mesa leadership circles. The past history of CCCM leadership, has clearly shown their bitterness , attacking and arrogant response to the issues that their congregation have brought to their attention.
No wonder that the congregation is steadily diminishing,and many are now wondering who is really leading? Here are a few questions to begin a new thread .
Perhaps we could really examine the “Underbelly” of a corporate “Non-Profit” machine disguised at times, as a caring ministry.
1. When “The word for today” employees were drafting and submitting “Confidential ” reports on Brad and Jeff Smith’s” bizarre finacials and behavior in 1999-2000, …why did Chuck Smith allow son -Jeff and Grandson-Brad, to fire these employees thirty days later? Was he protecting himself from a lawsuit? From discovery?
2. From 1995-2006, how many have been fired for bringing up issues with Jeff and Brad Smith at “The word for today”.The numbers are amazing ! How about CCCM? The Bible College? The Kool-aid mantra -”The Lord……..I beleive,..would have you to move on!…Lets pray together!..
2. What ever happened to Jeff Smiths right hand man and former convicted Felon - Steve Atkins? He was in charge of CSN expansion and license issues? Mike Kestler is another question as well. Did he have “certain” relationships on the west coast as well?
3. Do a little research on Jeff Smith’s failed CCCM “Childrens Ministry” in 1998-2001. California Department of Consumer affairs documents on PDF, reveal a large amount for “Salary” more than 50 % of their combined gross yearly income? Is that normal?
4. Why was Jeff and Brad Smith , allowed to take in donated gifts from church members and sell them on “Ebay” for “money to be used ” on their failed Childrens Minitsry? Why were they allowed to do this “Online” at Word for today offices? Where did the money go? Accountability?
5. What is the Connection with Jeff Smith’s wife and T.B.N.? WHAT IS THEIR FUTURE GOAL AND PARTNERSHIP WITH T.B.N.?
6. Is Brad Smith being paid a large salary to out of his home, concerning contracted computer graphic work .How long has this been “approved and hidden” by Grandpa Smith? Is this listed in any CCCM ministry audits or Information?
7. Why is there no access to CCCM board minutes and a constant denial for CCCM Accounting department, to show what ministries they support and are in partnership with? Perhaps with the recent death of Chuck Smiths right hand money man, …John, we could receive some answers or more stonewalling?
It might be easier to find the man in Dallas,…on the grassy knoll, …as opposed to board minutes and money information for Costa Mesa!
What a shame!
From time to time, I will contribute tidbits for future topics and related Investigators who are presently surfing this sight.
Enjoy the holiday and the freedom given to us by those who have sacrified so much and by the Blessings of our Lord and Savior -Jesus Christ.
Whoa… can’t wait to see Mr. Oooooo’s response on that one! I’m sure it will be mature and reasonable.
Endeavor-07 Wow, you finally bring some things up that need to be looked at. From what I know Jeff Smith has been handling millions of dollars for the Family for years with no accountability. Because I live in Idaho I am aware that Kestler has been asking to see the books for years only to be stonewalled. All Corporations are to have their books wide open to any officer that wants to see them and I think the action that Kestler took in Orange Co. shows the concern for how the Smith’s have been handling the money.
There is a pattern here and it’s starting to look like the Smith’s get their slush money from the Church but then they are not letting the Costa Mesa Church Board know what their doing with it????? This seems to echo exactly what has happened to CSN in Twin Falls because from what I hear they don’t know where the monies have gone either. Hopefully these things will be looked at.
James Douglas
James52douglas@yahoo.com
James,
Is it your position that Mike Kestler is a innocent victim in these matters?
I would say that from what I know he still doesn’t know how monies were handled. I think it is a rather logical conclusion given the action he took in Orange Co. and his willingness to step aside if need be. It looks like he is determined to find out.
You didn’t answer my question….
I don’t believe he knew what Jeff Smith was doing with the money so then the answer is, no, I don’t think he was involved in wrong doing as it pertains to the money issues. I know you want to bring up the Harrassment suit but I’m content to see how that plays out in court before I make up mind on that.
James and Michael,
From personal observations by many in the “Word for Today circles”, The Three men here- Jeff Smith, Mike Kestler and Brad Smith,… are known and considered by many, Including myself, …. to have conducted actions that would identify them as a Ministry ……..”Axis of Evil”.
There are indeed “smaller -less known” associated individuals, who have either faded away over the years, or crawled under a rock, when they were “used and disgarded” by these three “Leaders” . The method is the same,…only when they no longer fill their needs or desires of the three, then they are dumped.
All three , have been named and Implicated in corrupt Money associations, personel Issues and future plans with TBN that took place behind closed doors. Doors and Hotel rooms that had “Big” ears. Much info is being kept closed for now, and for certain reasons. ” Timing is everthing”
I hope others contrubute their evidence and experiences involving all three.
Endeavor,
I did get your fax, but we’ll need something more current to make a story.
How is it possible that Chuck couldn’t be invovled? Wasn’t it The God Father Chuck that set Jeff up to run his companies for him? From what I can tell none of this will be exposed unless their is an audit done of the offices that Jeff Smith has been in charge of for his Dad, correct? The action that Kestler took in Orange Co. is the first step to getting to bottom of what and how the Smith’s have been running things, Correct? How else can this get cleared up?
Jame Douglas
James52douglas@yahoo.com
I have a dove, a symbol of the Holy Spirit (as all of you know) , on the wall behind me when I teach. It means something to me. While I understand this is done (somewhat ) in jest, I am sad that it has come to this. I doubt any of you would do something like this to the cross, s o w hy is a dove fair game? (no pun intended)
Most of you value our (CC pastors) contribution here in this conversation (I’m becoming emergent now). I would have hoped that we would have been considered with more courtesy than this.
Centorian,
I think the dove was made entirely in jest and as a symbol of some in CC, not The Holy Spirit.
If it really is offensive to you and the our other friends in the CC pastorate we can remove it.
James,
That lawsuit will not do much as the courts do not investigate.
Kestler is the one actually under investigation by authorities…
Michael,
Thank you for your reply.
Our associates and I, will work our way through a time line of events. We will,.. or attempt to, make sense of this “Mess of a Ministry”. All in good time!
As we will discover, and with the twists and turns. There are no “Innocent parties” here.
Thoughts to reflect on!
1. Who is on Greg Lauries Harvest church board and all the others? Where do they meet- At Church, or expensive 5 star Hotels? IN TOWN OR OUT OF STATE? FIRST CLASS?, WITH FAMILY? Who pays the travel bills?
2. Why did Pastor Joey Buran AND SO MANY recent Pastors, really leave Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa?
3. Were Calvary Chapel Bible college student Suicide’s , covered up at the Bible College in Murrieta and at Calvary Chapel Bible college in Moscow ? (1998- 2001)
4. What really happned at C.C. Vista years ago and how did it affect CCCM, Bible college, school of Ministry? Todays effect and training of leaders? What happned at C.C. London?
Reflections and thoughts. Who can answer the riddles?
Michael,
Thank you for your consideration. It is your blog and it must be your call. I’m not big on sensorship, there is enough on this blog to offend almost everyone. It matters not to me whether you leave it or not. I wanted to express my opinion about it and I also believe it speaks toward some people’s hearts here. So, let it stay.
Michael you forgot what Kestler asked for in his suit. He asked the court of Orange Co. to put in a Court appointed reciever to run CSN. From what I know about recievers is they will look into how things are running and it will be the reciever who probably calls for the Audit because he will have the authority of the court. Are you saying that a court appointed reciever will go in with blindfolds? I don’t think so. The Court appointed reciever will report back to the Court. The Court won’t investigate but the Court appointer reciever will check into any improprieties that may arise. That is how it works.
Cent.
You know I like you, man. But it seems some of you CC pastors and defenders pick the wrong battles around here. There was a meltdown over the word “butt-kiss” the other day. Now, the bitter Dove (TM) needs to go?
Think about the humor here. That dove is nothing more than a logo, representing the brand that is Calvary Chapel. Years ago, I ran across a pamphlet adversting them. (If anybody has this information, it would be a hoot to post it).
To you, and me, the dove is an obvious symbol of the Spirit in the Bible. But, when I see a dove in a church, or on stationary, or on a car bumper, I think, “Calvary Chapel”. That is the intended effect, is it not?
I know, “No, it’s to remind people of the Spirit-led revival that was CC.”
Fine. But maybe we need living reminders, not logos.
I know that the Court can’t call for any Legal action. It would appear that the Court appointed Reciever could hand over to the District Attorney anything that has been done Illegally. This is where people can get into trouble with the Law.
Here’s my question…
Why can’t men who allegedly call Christ Lord find a way to settle this as Christians?
JJ…. My opinion doesn’t count but I find no humor with the dove. I also thought the butt kiss issue was perfectly legitimate. What is an issue for you isn’t an issue for others. What is an issue for me isn’t an issue for you. That’s how things work. Maybe you might provide a list of acceptable topics you deem acceptable of discussion/debate for those of us who don’t see everything as you do.
Erunner,
I’m just curious…
Does the situation in ABQ bother you at all?
Do you not believe that Skip’s behavior at the least is grossly unethical?
How about Idaho, where we have have the testimony of the Smith family that an adulterer is running CSN?
Why do you have no comments about these issues?
Michael…. I believe I have been asked by others these same questions and have answered. The situation in ABQ. does bother me greatly. That’s why I came to this blog. Who wouldn’t be sad or bothered to see a church going through that turmoil.
I only know about Skip what I read here. I have never heard a study of his. I have never met him. I have heard from others he’s a Godly man. It appears he has some things to answer for. I’m going to wait and let things play out completely.
As far as Idaho I haven’t followed it very closely. If a man is an adulterer and in ministry then that needs to be dealt with ASAP.
Hope that hlps a little.
Other people’s issues:
Spiritual abuse.
Lack of accountability.
Moses Model.
Lawsuits.
Church splits.
Authoritarianism.
Erunner’s issues:
Butt-kiss
Bitter Dove (TM)
JJ…. Is everything a joke to you? You feel so free to mock everything about CC which is your right. Your humor is lost on me.
I have a dove in the front of my church and it is even lit up kind of fancy with an embedded rope light behind it, but I guess I’m just too much of an iconoclast to get upset about this defilement of the dove. I thought it was funny. I defend the rights of others to express their offense at it, and I personally would want to be sensitive to that, but I just wanted to cast my vote. (Several years ago I heard Bob Coy say that the first time he went into Calvary Chapel he wondered why they had the big map of Texas on the wall.)
Erunner,
I will not mock what God has done at CC. Salvation. Discipleship. Teaching the Scriptures. Loving hurting people (I could go on).
I will mock practices I find funny. Defending a church logo is utterly hilarious. Raging over the word “butt-kiss” is very funny.
Endeavor-07, you have the gift! You ask all the right questions. I need you on my team.
Or it can be your team, I don’t care who’s in charge as much as I care that things get done.
Please contact me {purplepoet@hotmail.com}. Look at my web site {ccmembers.squarespace}, which is undergoing a major revision, and tell me what you think about what I have done so far.
I almost wish I could share all of the emails I get at the site. They are really encouraging. It is time for action.
Welcome to the blog. I’m sorry that Endeavors -01, -02, -03, -04, -05 and -06 didn’t work out for you.
One more question: What is the real reason John Schmidt hasn’t been at CCCM for two and a half years?
JRS
Endeavor-07,
This list dates to 2004 (networkforgood.org) but this is the not-surprising list of the Board for Harvest Crusades (also listed as four separate entities):
Jeff Lasseigne
Chuck Fromm
Bob Shank
John Collins
Greg Laurie
Franklin Graham
Rodney Couch
Skip Heitzig
Robert Shank (his name appears with the other listings)
The man whose name appears in bold are all currently in the cast of characters attached to the debacle in Albuquerque.
JJ, you stole my words in your response to Centorian. The CC dove is a logo that has been used by many as a trademark to help people identify a quasi-denomination. My parody is a visual protest against those who have (apparently to me) come to hold the image in greater esteem than that which it was originally intended to represent. And I think that if people are that concerned about disrespect shown to images of God or (CC) Saints, then they should go back and read the Second Commandment. I stand with the iconoclasts.
No disrespect intended to you, Centorian, but let me ask, would another form of a dove have the same meaning to you and your visitors as the one that is there now? My guess is that particular form conveys more than just the idea of the Holy Spirit, and that’s what makes it a dangerous association. God should not be tied to the work of men through symbols. I challenge you to consider what the symbol means to you and those who see it. Perhaps you should consider removing it or replacing it with a more generic representation of the Holy Spirit.
JJ… I simply don’t find the dove thing amusing. I do see the butt kissing comment differently from you. You and I disagree. Doesn’t make me a PP hater and it doesn’t make you a CC hater. We can agree to disagree.
I like the texas map on the wall. That was great Dave.
07- Were Calvary Chapel Bible college student Suicide’s , covered up at the Bible College in Murrieta and at Calvary Chapel Bible college in Moscow ? (1998- 2001)
This is a tail I have not heard do tell more…
Axed
The dove has replaced any notion of the trinity or Christs work on the cross. It has come to symbolize the Church of Man. Calvary Chapel’s are churches were the pastor is worshiped. I was at cccm a couple weeks ago and the complete worship of chuck by some of the staff and atendees was more than I could take.
The bitter dove is fitting. Especaily since Calvary gained it by threat of a lawsuite.
Yes folks Calvary Threatend to Sue Marantha for the Dove and Marantha gave it to them. The dove is an ill gotten gain.
The Axed
I wonder if Jesus is offended that Calvary Chapel is using the decending dove as their logo.
John Schmidt
What is the reason you have not been at CCCM for two years?
Endeavor-07
I would also like to hear about the suicide coverup. What is that about?
I love dove chocolate ice cream and I’m not offended by the brown delicious covering on cool vanilla ice cream. They use the dove too. CABQ has two stone tablets with hay or wheat in the background. That is suppose to mean Bible based and fruitful. I think. We make little jokes about it but I don’t want to offend anyone here. Shhhh I think I hear a lawyer sniffing around.
Laura Scott.. You forgot to bolden Greg Laurie he was an avid Skip supporter on the Jumbotron video and I believe he was on the board at one time too,
ERunner ,have a dove bar my friend. Yummmmy.
All,
Lets also examine the beginnings of failure and cult worship. Lets All pitch in with what we know, work together and “connect the dots”.
This method, …Is also called “Link Analysis” . Its an Old Investigator trick and one that “Newspaper “reporters like as well. (Mr. Mark Arax- L.A. TIMES reporter, are you LISTENING? Theres a big story here, like the TBN Orange County Register article a few years ago. Can anyone help and contact? There is strength in numbers and teamwork.
1. Look at the early dealings from CCCM- (1995-98), THEN CC Vista and the beginning and failure , of CCCPM- Moscow outreach- George Bryson? Look at the Chrisitan body count and distruction from Calvary Chapel Church Planting mission in Moscow! Americans and Russians. Very Sad.
Sucides at Calvary Chapel Bible College-
Murrieta
1. Do the research, and ask yourself why Chuck Smith counseled a young man named “Jonathan” at Murrieta and why the very next morning, on a Orange County Freeway, he took a bible in one hand, and stepped out in front of a Semi -Truck at eighty miles per hour.? You didnt here about that one! What was said?
2. Why did the C.C. Bible college staff rush to his dorm room, to seize his “Goodbye letter” , LOCK HIS LOCKER, and label him as disturbed and having issues” .
MOSCOW
3. Why did a female RUSSIAN Calvary Chapel Bible College student and full time staff member, ( staying at the Moscow campus “Overdose” on Heroin and die?
C.C. VISTA
4. What happend with “Adultry and C.C. VISTA staff members and pastors? Money Issues? Are any of those on staff anywhere now? I bet they are!
Poima Chapel
5. What really took place at “Poiema Chapel” formerly a “Calvary Chapel Church for One year , in Hunington Beach,CA. The pastor -”Oden Fong,’ was previously a C.C.O.F. Pastor at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. Any adultry issues? Why after the church disbanded , did he get hired on as a Music Pastor for Raul Ries and his crusades? A Good ole boy network? Same story, different day.
I will leave my fellow teamates with those perplexing riddles to solve and to shed light on what others refuse to do in Leadership. Working together, we will solve the great mysteries and “Cover ups” which will lead to change or the birth of a new Christan movement.
I wil be away for several weeks regarding work and pulling up records.
All my Blessings.
Ahhh, Endeavor-07,
Tell me more. What work are you doing and what records are you pulling up? How’d you find information on those suicide stories? How do we find out the whole story?
One of the ironies of scripture is the conversion of Ruth.
The example she had was Naomi, You remember her. She lost everything in her flight to Moab. Her husband and two sons died… Naomi by her own confession was embittered. “Call me Mara (bitter) for the Lord has dealt bitterly with me.”
And yet there was something so beautiful about the LORD that shined into the heart of Ruth that she believed. She made that most glorious confession of faith, “your people are my people and your God, my God.”
The Bitter Dove may be the emblem of Calvary’s current pain and struggle but the Dove of heaven will continue to draw the truly hungry.
I have noticed that when someone is hungry they are blind to the ugliness of christendom and alive to the beauty of Christ. May it be so here also.
ps I hope I don’t get a flock of doves for this post.
How sad for the families of suicides. What ever happened is probably just plain tragic. I don’t think making a conspiracy out of these two tragedies would bring back the dead. I’ve had friends that have lost their children to similar circumstances and the wisest course of action was to let sleeping dogs lie.
No good would come of an investigation when young folks take their lives so terribly. The victims are the family and friends they leave behind. How many kids have been drinking and driving to end up in a morgue. I am glad that we don’t have all the information plastered on the news programs when it is a suicide. There is a reason for it, except if your name is Marilyn Monroe.
I doubt that Chuck Smith is involved in a conspiracy where someone kills themself because of what he counseled them about earlier. The police usually take over an investigation and look for a sucide note. At least that has been my experiences.
Seems that there is a lot of territory to cover without the sucides. My two cents on this.
-puzzletop
Alan Hawkins,
I think they give out only one dove at a time.
Puzzletop,
You’re right. Sorry, I got a little intrigued.
Endeavor 7
How sad. Like Jude, I want like to learn more.
I would be angry if Chuck counseled my child and didn’t bother to call and let me know that my child was having problems !
What do the parents of these students have to say?
If I admit to having accused myself of being bitter ….can I be awarded a dove with a kippa on it???
I did it!!! You guys have no idea how proud I am of myself with this
;) Thanks ~ Trish 
Be careful there Trish, pride goeth before the fall.
Jude, this is coming form someone whose 4yr. taught her how to fix the video player and whose greatest computer triumph has been winning at Spider solitaire with 4 decks!
Thanks ~ Trish
I still can’t do the sunglasses one so I’ll stay humble for now
“Dove Logo” = “Dove Icon”
Careful CCCM! CCOF is waiting for your disaffiliation. Be sure to check if they haven’t already removed you from the CC links page.
I’m sure a “News Alert” from Apostasy Alert is forthcoming!
Sorry guys I didn’t mean to interupt the tragic posts with a trivial post about smiling faces. I just saw the thread and didn’t bother to read the rest and now it seems rude after reading Esther’s last post. Sorry guys. My heart goes out to those families, I had no idea.
I go out flying for a couple of days and you folks go creative in my absence. I love the satirical dove. It’s hard to recognize it in the small version as a lemon cross-section but when I looked at the big picture I could see it.
Good work and a predictible reaction from ERunner.
Hello all,
Wow! What a change. Looks great! Unfortuantely, I can’t seem to get to any other thread at the moment.
Question about CCLaguna; I understand that Don McClure stepped down last week. A friend attended the 11:15am CCA service and said Dave Row seemed to be giving a “good-bye” speech. Does anyone know/think if Don might be coming to CCA?
Grace and peace.
Centorian,
I took the Bitter Dove as this: using humor to address frustration with a once-great movement of God that has become to some people, a brand name which is becoming more and more synonymous with pastoral corruption, abuse, arrogance, pride and power.
I personally have always liked the Calvary dove. Unfortunately, JJ is right - when you see the dove you think Calvary Chapel - the intended effect.
When most people see a cross they think of Jesus or of church. The Calvary dove symbolizes CC as much as the Holy Spirit, if not more.
I was there when Buster unveiled it and rest assured, no one that night had any thoughts or desire whatsoever to mock the Holy Spirit, nor to offend another believer.
Princess,
What about that “goodbye?” What did Dave say?
I went to the Verve on Saturday; it rocked.
Puz,
I know I left out Greg Laurie. He resigned from the board when Greg Zanetti pointed out certain illegalities concerning the use and ownership of CCABQ assets. See Greg’s letter for that story.
Greg has wisely has stayed out of this for the most part and that is a mercy.
Laura Scott,
I listened to the podcast and he said he was very proud of the congregation, that they had dealt with a lot, that it had been his greatest priviledge to serve and he asked the congregation to be patient that the situation would be resolved soon. He said God was going to do amazing things at CAA (I’m paraphrasing) ..then he said “I Love You.” He was a little weepy before he went to prayer after the message. Hard to say for sure if it was a good-bye.
The last time I printed out the CCA Board of Directors list from the CCA website, Skip was still listed. Didn’t he resign?
Princess,
Skip’s resignation is official. His letter is still on the CCABQ website. His presence, however, is there as much as it has ever been. So, six of one, half dozen of the other.
It is my observation than when feeling particularly up against it, Dave will state how much he loves the body at CCABQ. I am well aware that the leadership at CCABQ and Paul Scozzafava read this blog avidly. It stands to reason that the comments about Dave have reached him, if he has not read them himself. I feel for the guy; the crowd continues to thin the longer he stays in the pulpit and his very presence there says a lot about whom he is taking his cues from. So, it could have been a bad day for him and not a farewell.
The thought of Don McClure coming to Albuquerque just does not sit well with me. Nonetheless, these are some desperate times. I would take him over the return of Skip Heitzig anyday. God forbid that we think that only Skip “part time pastor/full time celebrity” Heitzig cold fill that pulpit.
Laura Scott,
I went to Verve on Saturday night also. I think those young pastors and band have their eyes and hearts focused in the right place. I’m going to stick with the Vertical group. Wasn’t that great praise and worship? The Holy Spirit was present.
Laura Scott,
Your observations again are troubling to me. The big clearance of inventory from the bookstore, the fountain machine not available, the staff reduction at the bookstore all are signs of impending shrinkage. How much longer will it be when Chip’s salary will have to be defended and one of the pastors let go?
So sad to see our church shriveling up and Dave left holding the bag only to be blamed that it’s his fault because he’s not as good as Skip at preaching. We know that it is not Dave Rowe’s fault but he may be set up for failure as time marches toward Christmas at CABQ.
My prayer is for the resignation of the entire board upon the naming of a new pastor. That would be the first step to new health for a once thriving Christian church in Albuquerque.
-puzzletop
Laura Scott,
Where can I find Greg Laurie’s letter you mentioned above.
Skip might say he resigned from the board, but isn’t he still the CEO of the corporation?
puzzletop says:
Your observations again are troubling to me. The big clearance of inventory from the bookstore, the fountain machine not available, the staff reduction at the bookstore all are signs of impending shrinkage. How much longer will it be when Chip’s salary will have to be defended and one of the pastors let go?
Chip’s salary will be the last to drop. You can be sure of that one. Sounds like the things like Nickel Sunday and “if you don’t like it, there’s the door” (both with different sponsors) are working.
Laura Scott,
I agree. After listening to the podcast I couldn’t be certain it was good-bye, but he was definitely emotional. I know Dave well enough to know how tender his heart is and, like most of us, certain things will start the flow of tears within seconds. I beleive he truly loves the flock at Calvary.
While his time in the pulpit at CCA has been trying and especially difficult on his family, I’ve seen tremendous growth from Dave as a speaker. Over the months he’s become more comfortable and more confident in his speaking but still noticeably not in control. I pray God continues to bless him and his family through all of this.
I’m undecided on Don McClure. I’ve heard OF him more times than I’ve actually heard him. I have some concerns but I can’t be certain they are justified yet.
Puz - I have to agree with you, everyone on the board must resign but what do you think the chances are of that? Add Chip Lusko to that “must go” group as well. I need to stay away from commenting on Mr. Lusko.
I’m happy to hear that Paul is reading this. I have a great deal of respect for him the battle againts evil he is fighting in Santa Fe. I can’t think of anyone more capable of pastoring Santa Fe than Paul. However, I was there when he spoke on behalf of Skip and I was disappointed.
May God bless everyone on this Memorial Day. For those who have loved ones in the military, police and fire..our prayers and thanks go out to you today and everyday. Thank you to those who serve their country and their community. Thank you to my husband, son and daughter for their commitment to our freedom and safety. I love you.
WP,
The Verve was awesome. I think the number of us old fogies rocking out in the back blessed the worship team up there. It was especially nice for Kevin to distinguish between the servants and the One we worship before it all began.
I was referring to Greg Zanetti’s resignation letter from the CCABQ Board of Directors. When we met with him (wow… that seems like a long time ago), he spoke of the reasons behind Franklin Graham’s and Greg Laurie’s resignation and those issues are outlined in the Zanetti letter.
Skip may have resigned from the board of CCABQ but he is still in charge of Connection Communicatons.
Puz,
I have no idea when the leadership at CCABQ is going to get a real clue. As long as Skip is still running Connection Communications, Chip will remain in place, exhorbitant salaries and all.
I agree with you in Dave loving us. But it really does sound like he is studying old lessons of Skip’s and giving them on Wednesdays. I have heard Dave teach plenty of times before and what he is soundling like now is not what he was soundling like then. I prefer the “then.” It was more genuine than what we are being given now.
Princess,
I have said it before and I am going to say it now. Chip Lusko must go. Talk about being the leaven in the loaf.
Don has hurt more than he has helped here. That is a big red flag for me. Had he waited even a few weeks before coming to Albuquerque, not while the Heitzigs were still in evidence, I would have had more respect for his “concern.”
With some recent information, I am likewise disappointed in Paul. I love the man. He was the one I was sent to make it through a particularly difficult time in my life. But dang it all, he KNOWS better than to even appear to be OK with any of this. I am hoping he gets his fill of all this junk and turns to make a stand.
100th,
You got that right. Even though they are slow to acknowledge it openly, our views via the collection plate are being heard loud and clear.
Someone pass me that Bitter Dove; I think this post has earned it.
Michael Newnham wrote:
Erunner,
I’m just curious…
Does the situation in ABQ bother you at all?
Do you not believe that Skip’s behavior at the least is grossly unethical?
How about Idaho, where we have have the testimony of the Smith family that an adulterer is running CSN?
Why do you have no comments about these issues?
____________________________________________________
I would ask you the same thing about comments on this board that
Chuck Smith is an adulterer.
Aren’t you bothered that an adulterer is running Calvary Chapel?
Why do you have no comments about this issue?
BP
How about because I have no proof?
How about because all I get are these quick hits with no verification and fake email addresses?
I’ve heard the accusations, but it is just gossip unless someone brings some proof.
Good Morning All,
This is now my third attempt to dislodge my self from this blog. I think I’ve outlived my usefulness here. Besides, my wife, 5 kids, 1 dog, and 1 cat (Well, maybe not the cat) really do need much more of my attention.
Since this is a holiday, I thought I’d brighten your day a little with some of my lame humor as I try to leave you all.
Here’s my thought.
Since JJ’s “Bitter Dove” award has proved so successful, why not create some alternate “dove ” awards to be given to CC pastors for their varying achievements. This could make a great thread. Awards could be added to the list, as you guys see the need.
I think an annual awards ceremony would be in order. It could be conducted as an adjucnt to the annual CC Pastor’s Conference. Hey, we could innagurate it next week during this year’s conference!
Just to get the ball rolling, I’ll give you guys some starters.
1.) The “Better Dove” -
This award could go to the CC Pastor who after much PP blogging and reading The CC survey, gains a deep sense of conviction and repentance managing to pull off the greatest transformation within his CC.
Scott Mahathey could present this one!
2.) The “Heavenly Dove”-
This one would go to the CC pastor who is so sweet that his church members feel they have a taste of heaven right there in their pews. The winner of this one will be presented a case of frozen dove bars at the ceremony.
Forget it guys, Dave Rolph has a lock on this one!
3.) The “Turtledove”-
This coveted award will go the the last “CC dispensationlist” holdout, who after reading the “eschatology” thread, still manages to get “left behind” and still desires to offer animal sacrifices during the millenium.
A split dove would make an excellent award symbol for this, and will of course be presented by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
4.) The standard “Dove” award-
This one’s already in place. All we need to do is move the venue to Murietta Hot Springs. Of course this award will go to the most musically talented CC Pastor who still manages to give 5 hours of his week to tending the flock, while spending an additional 80 hours a week honing his vocal abilities, guitar playing, improving his “stage presentation” to impress the female judges, and working on his haircut and wardrobe.
I think the host of “American Idol” is up for presenting the award. Sabolick has a lock on this one.
5.) The “Flying” Dove-
Being able to break free and “fly the coup” takes no small amount of courage. Better to be “Emergent” than “Submergent”. This one will be awarded to the Ex CC Pastor most able to release himself from from the shackles of his past. In judging for this award, extra points will be given for rejecting such foul doctrines as “modernism”,”nepotism” and possibly even the “sonship” doctrine.
Jr. is miles ahead of you all on this one.
6.) The “Dumbass” dove-
Anyone daring enough to confront the real “Eli” and what he may represent, or question his right to bear and raise “wayward” children…certainly deserves this award.
Many PP posters in this competition have a good chance at this one. Our very own “Baby D” will be presiding over a very unusual and painful presentation. The winner will be branded with a dove in the shape of Texas on the heiny! Moses was scheduled to award this one, but won’t be available. He’s currently rehearsing his role as one of the 2 witnesses during the Great Tribulation.
7.) The “Hawk the Dove”-
Two lay hold of this “distinctive” award, potential CC candidates must be willing to adopt a “Commander in Chief” mentality. Doves need to be taken off the wall and replaced with something much more “offensive”. We recommend something along the lines of black anodized hawks with lots of sharp edges on them. Hey, we’re taking the hill boys!
One of the Regional commanders, Rick Coburn will actually pin a medal on the victor. Ken Merrihew, full combat gear in tow is on the frontlines now. Don’t bet against him!
8.) The “Lonesome” Dove-
This one has a Southwestern theme for you gunslingers out there. We know you’re packin’. We certainly don’t want to skip over this very important award. Any CC pastor that can succesfully take his congregation down to one member (preferrably a family member), will be the winner. The catch is there’s a time limit on this one!
The award for this one is fun. Sheriff Puzzletop will use a bulldozer to flatten and bury your old facilty, while Dennis Agajanian sings “Via Dolorosa” and a large mound will be erected in it’s place. A large tombstone will be erected in your honor, giving you your very own “Boot hill”, and your noteriety will be broadcast on CSN (the Rebel Network) throughout the land. Your outlaw status will be legendary.
WARNING: You will not be allowed to appoint your own judges in this competition. And if you don’t win- don’t try to make a comeback! Just retain the “chip” on your shoulder.
9.) The “Grieving” Dove-
Perhaps the most prestigious honor a CC Pastor can have is to invent a new heresy. Or maybe to popularize an existing one. Have at it boys! The bar has been set pretty high by our illustrious leader. The Doctine of the “Binity” has deprived the Father and the Spirit of their favored “Son” for a season, causing much shedding of tears.
Immovable, unstoppable “Eli” Smith will be wearing his “Papal” Hawaiian garb and presenting this one from his throne stool. Dont try to topple him though, He had the stool welded to the floor.
(That one was for you Oh” Wooley One”!)
With that..I bid you all Adieu! Looking forward to see what alternate CC awards you clever folks might add to the list.
God Bless you Michael.
Brethren, we have the post of the year…
That was incredible
God bless you and you have a permanent place at our table.
believer,
That was a Texas-sized idea
I can spot a dumbass from Amarillo to Houston
I’d like to contribute to the discussion.
How about the Texas dove, named in honor of Bob Coy, who, upon walking into a Calvary Chapel for the first time, wondered why the church had an outline of the state of Texas on the wall - thanks Dave Rolph).
This award, in keeping with no-nonsense attitudes of Texans, goes to the person who calls out dumbasses in CC pulpits for what they are and “bullhockey” in CC pulpits for what it is.
I’m hoping to be nominated
Michael, I think you’re in the lead, though 100th Sheep’s gotta be considered too.
I had hoped I wasn’t too far off base on what a Texas dove would award….
And as far as the “standard Dove”, Randy, Paula and Simon have to judge what, half the CC pastorate?
And you’re going to leave us, A.B.?
Dang. I think I’m sad.
I hope AB has developed an addiction and must return occasionally
Help! Call 9-1-1!!
I think I’m going to need medical attention! When I read the line “Papal Hawaiian garb” I laughed so hard I thought I was going to die.
JJ, and anyone else.
I feel sad too, but It’s affecting my ability to get work done.
Anyone who wishes to talk to me privately can leave an e-mail address on the blog for me and I will get back to you.
I really do love and appreciate you guys. And I will continue praying for you.
Endeavor 007, you are absolutely right, but these shenanigans started earlier. WFT staffers were fired in 1993 and banished from CCCM when they tried to bring Chuck proof of discrepencies in the WFT books, totally controlled by Jeff Smith. As far as Steve Atkins, he was (LOL) described as a “accountant” by Jeff.
James Douglas…Did you have dealings with Kestler regarding petitions for and against other entities applying for repeater? Is your true last name Maynard? That would explain the apolgetics on behalf of the equally as guilty Kestler e-mails you have sent me.
DTS,
An added feature of winning the “Greiving Dove” award is that it has special ability to impart a “triple blessing” to anyone who triangulates it properly with Costa Mecca, TBN and Azusa St. I’ve heard that if you drink new wine from the “Vineyard” while doing this you can actually conjur up the express image of Rodney Howard Browne. You will be speaking in tongues better than JJS, rolling on the floor, baahing like 100 sheep, roaring like a lion…all the while laughing yourself into a seizure.
Should this occur, have Johnny Appleseed call 9-1-1 for you and call for “Severe Mercy” immediately while putting on a Phoenix preacher T-shirt .
DTS
Should you ever become a CC Pastor and die while receiving the “triple blessing”, don’t worry. Michael the Archblogger, in disputing for your body, won’t allow Satan to have it for constructing some future “DTS Model” style of church leadership in the future.
Additional rememberences….
Wasn’t Jeff Smith’s wife or ex-wife, (there were a few) a daughter of some prominent TBN telepreacher? Can’t remember the name, may have been from San Diego area. If I remember right, the studios and offices of ASAPH Records were leased or sold to Crouch’s son.
Dear Endeavor7 and Anonymous in So CA
I have worked for The Word For Today and CSN since 93 and feel your comments are doing nothing more than stirring up “discord among the brethren”.
Your comments are based in nothing and have no merit at all. You are grasping at straws while trying to create a problem. I would have to question your motives for raising these issues.
Patti,
Glad to have you here. Since you work for TWFT perhaps you could answer some questions. Your response of “no merit” may be true but it leaves me wanting more explanation of why there was no merit in the points listed. Could you be specific on why they were of no merit?
Wasn’t Jeff Smith married to the daughter of TBN televangelist Dwight Thompson? She was his second wife, right? Has he married since then?
What about the financial question?
Patti,
The rest of the questions were:
1. When “The word for today” employees were drafting and submitting “Confidential ” reports on Brad and Jeff Smith’s” bizarre finacials and behavior in 1999-2000, …why did Chuck Smith allow son -Jeff and Grandson-Brad, to fire these employees thirty days later? Was he protecting himself from a lawsuit? From discovery?
2. From 1995-2006, how many have been fired for bringing up issues with Jeff and Brad Smith at “The word for today”.The numbers are amazing ! How about CCCM? The Bible College? The Kool-aid mantra -”The Lord……..I beleive,..would have you to move on!…Lets pray together!..
2. What ever happened to Jeff Smiths right hand man and former convicted Felon - Steve Atkins? He was in charge of CSN expansion and license issues? Mike Kestler is another question as well. Did he have “certain” relationships on the west coast as well?
3. Do a little research on Jeff Smith’s failed CCCM “Childrens Ministry” in 1998-2001. California Department of Consumer affairs documents on PDF, reveal a large amount for “Salary” more than 50 % of their combined gross yearly income? Is that normal?
4. Why was Jeff and Brad Smith , allowed to take in donated gifts from church members and sell them on “Ebay” for “money to be used ” on their failed Childrens Minitsry? Why were they allowed to do this “Online” at Word for today offices? Where did the money go? Accountability?
5. What is the Connection with Jeff Smith’s wife and T.B.N.? WHAT IS THEIR FUTURE GOAL AND PARTNERSHIP WITH T.B.N.?
6. Is Brad Smith being paid a large salary to out of his home, concerning contracted computer graphic work .How long has this been “approved and hidden” by Grandpa Smith? Is this listed in any CCCM ministry audits or Information?
7. Why is there no access to CCCM board minutes and a constant denial for CCCM Accounting department, to show what ministries they support and are in partnership with? Perhaps with the recent death of Chuck Smiths right hand money man, …John, we could receive some answers or more stonewalling?
Patti,
Rather just just dimissing them, perhaps you could address the points he raises. If you can refute them, we’d be glad to hear your side.
You say you work for WFT & CSN; are you here in an official capacity? We can question your motives, too.
Putting together some pieces of info…
McClure hanging out around here in recent weeks.
Rowe gives what seems to be a farewell speech.
CA Board just past the 60 days…
In the meanwhile McClure bugs out and is open for a new church.
Question - Is McClure going to pastor at CA?
100th Sheep:
I am Jeff Smith’s personal administrative assistant and have worked at The Word For Today since 1993 and was here in the forming of CSN International and currently working for CSN.
Because of my position here and pending lawsuits I am not at liberty to discuss all your particulars, however, I want to say that the allegation against Jeff and his family are not true.
I will say that the financial accusations against Jeff are not true and I have processed every single check leaving this office.
By the way, Jeff is happily married to the same woman you refer to and has a beautiful family. Yes, she is the daughter of evangelist, Dwight Thompson.
We here at CSN and The Word For Today appreciate your continual prayers. God bless you all,
Patti
Patti,
Are multi-million dollar lawsuits considered “sowing discord among the brethren”?
Thanks, Patti.
Thank you for clearing up the issue of Jeff’s wife’s identity by verifying what we thought we knew.
It must be tough for you that you can’t speak what you believe to be the truth due to lawsuits. However, if the books were as open as people are asking for you would not be bothered by this and it would be easy, wouldn’t it?
Since you can’t be specific what can you say? Are the books open enough that people can see where the money goes?
I am confused about one thing. I thought CSN was in Twin Falls. It sounds as if you wear three hats. Jeff’s personal admin, plus working for CSN plus TWFT? Must be tough to keep it all straight. Are you named in the suits yourself or do you expect to be one of the John (Jane) Does named later?
Patti,
At one time I was in possession of a check made out to CSN that was deposited in the TWFT account.
(I can’t find it to save my life at the moment)
Would you comment on the propriety of that and if it happened frequently?
(here’s my prediction of Patti’s response)
I’m on the accounts payable not accounts receivable side of things.
(let’s see if I am right).
If Michael has such a thing it would be a serious hit to TWFT and it’s hope of ever getting control of CSN from the courts.
100th,
I personally asked McClure and he denied that he was going either place.
My motives are to expose the wolves in sheeps clothing and the nepotism and corruption of the CCCM system that has been around for many years. Patti..did you take the place of the WFT staffer that was fired when she tried to expose accounting irregularities to Chuck SR. in 1993?
Endeavor,
I’m trying to work the California Department of Consumer affairs site for Jeff Smith’s failed CCCM “Childrens Ministry” in 1998-2001. documents on PDF.
Can you give me some pointers for finding stuff there?
Michael, OK. I was just wondering at the coincidence. Then again I’d expect denials right up to the day of the official announcement the he was going.
If he does go either place I shudder to think what I might write that day
I’m hoping someone resends me that check copy …
Dear JJ:
1 Cor 6 says that it is a shame when Christians go outside the church for legal matters. It grieves us because this can be healed within the body.
Patti
Hello all! Is there anybody out there?
I’m here, off and on. I’m at work
I’d guess everyone else is out picnicing…
Hey 100th,
Give Patti a break man.
You’re all over the poor woman.
You guys are brutal.
Big Guy and Fusco:
Will either of you talk to me about authority vs submission?
Scott,
I would love to, but I”m only at my puter for a few moments.
I’ll try and stick for as long as possible
whoops,
My son just awoke.
I gotta go now.
Sorry
Here we go: This is an excerpt of something I wrote recently. Do you agree with it?
I do not think I should submit to leaders who act outside of their God-given authority or who expect me to when I think they are wrong. For any leader to expect people to submit to them when they are wrong is expecting them to do something against the dictates of conscience–to sin, in other words. To quote Ken Merrihew, ” . . .showing obeisance to God by giving unswerving support to our leaders, even if you think they are wrong,”. I do not think grey areas should never be argued over when it comes to submission/authority. If a person does not choose to follow a leader because their conscience tells them its wrong, the leader has no place to say a person is rebellious or not submitted to authority. I am submitted to those whom God has placed over me as long as they follow God. When they do not, or they expect me to do something that violates my God-given conscience, I am released from submitting to them because they are no longer a God-given authority to me in that circumstance. Authority for a spiritual leader of any kind is strictly limited to what the Bible says they can and cannot do. When they go beyond that they have lost authority.
And here is an important point: Authority is not granted automatically because of a spiritual position one sets themselves up in or holds in a church, whether that person is the senior pastor or married to the senior pastor. Authority is from God’s Word. Any expectation of submission a leader has that is not backed up by Scripture or contrary to conscience should be rejected.
Submission must never be expected by leaders, it should be exemplified by them. Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve, and he is our example. When I hear from a leader in words or by other means that they expect people to submit to them they have automatically lost me as a servant to them. A servant has no right to expect anyone to do as they say. Submission is an attitude of the heart, not just an act. Submission is always to God first, not anyone else. A spiritual leader will always expect people to submit to God before them, and respect a persons’ choice to submit elsewhere whether they like the outcome or not. Any pastor who gets bent out of shape over people not being submitted to them is a pastor who is not submitted to his people nor to his God. It is not a pastor’s place to judge whether someone is in submission to God or not. It is the Word of God that searches the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Anybody want to discuss this?
I’ll try to keep up as much as possible. Gimme a few minutes to digest what you wrote.
There will always be a number of Calvaryites that are so blinded by the man on top at CCCM and their thoughts about his infallability that no matter what gets presented, they won’t accept it.
I would agree pretty much with everything you said, Scott. Obviously if Pastor Joe Blow wants his secretary to cut a $200 check to Gospel for Asia, and she says no, that’s a crock, let’s give $500 as a faith seed to Benny Hinn, then she needs to submit to his authority. But if he’s telling her to take $1500 and get a patio at Home Depot for the pastor’s home, then she should tell him to take a hike. Extreme examples, but I think they illustrate what’s appropriate and inappropriate.
Someone put a qoute up either last week or before from AW Pink. The qoute had to do with the Word of God. I wish I kept it.
Dear Michael:
It certainly was possible that a CSN check was deposited into the WFT account or vice versa. However, Michael, I have not observed any financial misconduct from the Santa Ana offices. If a check was deposited into the wrong account, it would of been adjusted appropriately.
Patti
BG:
What about in a case other than employer/employee?
Let’s say you are a worship leader. The senior pastor comes to you one day and says, “you need to sing these songs and I’ve provided a list and chord charts for you.” Is the pastor moving beyond the scope of his authority? What is the scope of his authority and who gives it to him? What if the worship leader says, “Hey we’ve been working on worship all week and now you come to us on Friday an tell us we need to change everything? We can’t do that.” Is the worship leader being rebellious/unsubmissive?
There is a huge difference between an employee or volunteer of a church being expected to abide by certain rules and boundaries as part of their duties and anyone at a church expected to do whatever the leader wants at a whim. Churches which care about the former usually have those boundaries and rules clearly defined.
BG:
Why do you suppose that submission is such a big concern with CC pastors?
CSN did not have its own Bank account till the end of 1993, previous to that, thousands of dollars of seed money was directly deposited into WFT. Pull the books for 1993 Patti.
My opinion, for what it’s worth…
I think the worship leader is right and reasonable to ask why. The pastor may think he has the right to do whatever he wants, but he needs to be responsible with his power.
If the pastor found out that there were going to be a group of European Christians coming on Sunday who are offended by the modern worship style you normally perform, then yes, he’s right to ask you to change up. For that matter, if God told him to change the set, then you should go along (but the pastor should explain what the Lord was saying to him and where He wants the music to go). If you’re doing your own thing, not listening to anyone, and the music is becoming divisive within the congregation.
But, if he comes at you with “CHANGE!” gives no reason for it and won’t give you a reason after you ask him, you’ve got a choice: do you go along with his wishes (after all, he is the boss in the CC model church) or do you “walk with your feet?”
Big Guy,
Let’s not confuse the duties and obligations of an employee with the Biblical submission that is expected of “one to another.” I think it’s exactly that confusion that has led to problems in many churches. It’s appropriate for her to do her job, which includes obeying the law. He’s her superior in the organization, and (may be) an elder in the faith. The two are not the same.
In the case that the worship leader leaves, should he be considered to be in rebellion to leadership?
Scott,
Perhaps because they don’t want anyone to rock the boat.
Of course not…doesn’t everyone know that worship leaders are difficult to deal with.
Scott,
You would think that the pastor and worship leader should be able to work out a disagreement. (If the worship leader is leading the church in a riot outside the pastor’s office and they’re throwing stones and Molotov cocktails through his windows, then it’s probably a rebellion.)
Dear 100th Sheep:
I am on the board of Hope For The Children with Jeff Smith. The corporation is still alive. I am thankful for what God has accomplished through this ministry. Jeff has personally taken his children to the toughest gang areas in LA, OC and other cities teaching a sidewalk Sunday School type format. They teach the children to memorize scriptures and sing Christian songs and when available, hand out food, clothes and toiletries to the needy. Thousands of children have been blessed and have come to Jesus through this ministry. We are thankful that many organizations have contributed to reach into the inner city and Ebay was one method to raise money for the kids.
Neither, Jeff his family nor I receive a penny from this organization for the work we do. I volunteer my accounting services to this organization and I assure you there is no financial misconduct.
Patti
Big Guy:
Your comment gets to another question: Why do issues like this come up so often in Calvaries? Does everyone have a chip on their shoulder in CC and is just inviting people to knock it off so they can get into an argument about authority and submission? Why does such a high level of tension exist over this in CC?
Lookin’ Up”:
Yeah, those “artsy” types are weird, aren’t they? Hey, what if the pastor tells the worship leader to shave off his soul patch? Does the worship geek have to obey?
Scott,
I was about to respond to you when I noticed an ad at the bottom of the page. Book: Pastor Abuse, An eye-opening book! Reveals why pastors feel abused and quit daily.
Got a chuckle out of that…might I be in a cynical mood today?
http://www.challies.com/
Interesting read on the emergent discussion
http://www.bobhellmann.com/PastorAbuse.html
ARE YOU ABUSING YOUR PASTOR?
Did you notice the Chapter Titles? Here are my two favorites:
8. False Pastors
10. The Need for Reconciliation
Scott,
In my opinion, and with my ex-CC the pastor felt threatened when the worship leader was being praised by the congregation, by them asking for CD’s of the worship.
Scott,
Yes, the chapters were the first thing I noted, and was why I posted the link.
Pastor Abuse? I do not know this guys take on it but it is real. When I was training 30 years ago we were told that 75% of us would not survive. That is easily the case. This blog is devoted to dealing with pastors who abuse power. There is another story out there of pastors who are daily destroyed by churches, by expectations, by systems that promote hireling ways, by traditions… the Calvary system did not emerge w/o some reason.
Baby D,
I know for a fact that Pastor abuse happens. I just thought it funny that it would be an ad on this site.
Forgive me for being in a cynical mood.
Buster,
Thing is, in most large churches the church is run like a business - henceforth the chains of command you would normally see in secular businesses.
I guess the chain of command an employee/volunteer should follow would go something like this:
1. God/Scripture should be the ultimate authority (with the understanding God’s Holy Spirit leads us and guides us in every situation, and that Scripture is NOT God, but represents the mind and heart of God and His will for our lives, and speaks to us today - and that Scripture and the Holy Spirit do not conflict). Both can tell us how to perform at work, and how to deal with a superior who’s going out of control.
2. Federal, state and local law - submissive to God, but higher than the pastor. Bonhoeffer appealed to Scripture when he protested what the Nazi state was doing to the Jews in Germany. African-Americans appealed to Scripture when explaining to white pastors in the South why Jim Crow and other racist laws were morally wrong. On the other hand, if buying the patio from Home Depot is a violation in any way of the law, whether it’s a major or minor violation, play it safe and abide by the letter and spirit of the law.
3. The authorities in the church laid out by Scripture. This might be an interesting thread to explore - what truly is the chain of command within the church? The Pope? Chuck Smith? The pastor? The board of elders?
Bottom line: The pastor/elders may have authority and power, but need to exercise it with power. When they set themselves up as infallible and unable to be criticized/questioned by people below them and unwilling to change when confronted, that is abuse of their God-given authority. They should always be called out for it and confronted, in a Christ-like manner.
Lookin up
No prob…. it is ironic… and many pastors wash out by their own devices.
Baby D:
75% of insurance agents quit within the first 5 years also. 65% of all small businesses in the US fail within the first five years. How many of them would say they failed because they were abused?
Baby D,
“…and many pastors wash out by their own devices.”
Why is that? It it a lack of faith? What?
Patti…. Thanks for coming in. Kevin Thompson has posted here and indicates he is a friend of Jeff Smith. If you know Kevin might I ask your impressions of him? Thank you.
BG:
“3. The authorities in the church laid out by Scripture. This might be an interesting thread to explore - what truly is the chain of command within the church? The Pope? Chuck Smith? The pastor? The board of elders?
Bottom line: The pastor/elders may have authority and power, but need to exercise it with power. When they set themselves up as infallible and unable to be criticized/questioned by people below them and unwilling to change when confronted, that is abuse of their God-given authority. They should always be called out for it and confronted, in a Christ-like manner.”
Yes, lets explore that, please . . .
How is authority granted/transfered, acording to scripture. Elijah whipped Elisha with the mantle, that’s one way. What is they way according to the NT?
I’ve seen pastors barbecued by boards and congregational factions.
The sad part is that it seems that those with the biggest hearts and most potential are the ones most easily picked off.
It is a serious problem…
Scott,
Something’s come up here at work and I’ve got to go, I’ll have to take up the discussion later this evening. I hope what I did offer was of some value.
I guess if he rises from the ashes that would make him a Phoenix Preacher!
Erunner,
I hope you don’t start up that again.
Kevin and I have spoken and there’s peace in the valley.
Leave it that way…
Pastor abuse is real and that’s why CC is set up to protect the pastor. That’s a good thing but not to the extent that CC does it. The pastor is so insulated that the people are the one’s who are invariably hurt at CC.
But as a servant of God we are following in our master’s feet if we are hurt. The sheep should never be the ones hurt.
Lookin’ up
I am just saying that pastors also fail because of personal moral failure … it is not all abuse… We are culprits as well as being abuse.
Scott,
Don’t be ridiculous… I do not know that many insurance guys who had a calling. Most pastors enter the ministry with very passionate sense of call and very deep devotion to God. Your analogy is demeaning. But hey, I do not find your opinion offensive … just ridiculous. All I am saying is that I personall have seen far more pastors abused in congregational churches than dictatorial pastors who have abused congregations.
CC is set up to ONLY protect the senior pastor.
I think the analogy is an appropriate one. There are many people who enter the ministry without a clue what it is about and wind up learning that it is not God’s calling for them.
You see, all I have ever see until recently is CC. And alot of pastors are running roughshod over their people in CC.
Michael, That had nothing to do with you at all. I’m simply trying to get some positive input for Kevin. I know the two of you have spoken. He and I speak quite often.
The following is not a description of the Calvary Chapel system.
In some denominational systems there is very little protection for the cover. A new seminary graduate with some theory and little practical experience gets a call from a church right out of school. He decides to try some of the things he learned at seminary about church growth and introduce it to the church. Trouble is the church picked him because they thought they could tell him how to run the church. He’s trouble waiting to happen with the board.
Eventually they find some reason and fire him without stating the reason. They do it with gossip and innuendo.
Erunner,
Then tell him to answer his phone…
Scott,
I agree that they CC system runs over people. To balance the scales I am just pointing out that cc is a very narrow slice of the pie… but I am not interested in hijacking the thread…This blog is primarily to address the aforementioned abuse.
100th:
“The cover.” There’s a descipling term if I ever heard one. Spiritual abusers love to use the term “cover”. “Yes we’re kicking you out of the church because you don’t want to submit to your “cover”. Where did you get tht quote?
Erunner,
“I’m simply trying to get some positive input for Kevin.”
Did you ask Kevin if that is what he wanted?
Michael, He never answers. I always get a voice message. I left him a message a few days ago and he hasn’t returned my call yet. If I talk to him first I will relay your message.
Lookin’
What are the limits/bounds of spiritual authority within the church? Who holds authority? Who must submit to it? Please give me your opinion.
Lookin’ Up…. Kevin and I have become friends as a result of this blog and I’m positive he has no problem with me posting what I just did. Thanks for asking.
Cover…
a typo actually when I re-read it.
In some denominational systems there is very little protection for the cover of the pastor…
Believe me it happens but that’s not CC’s problem.
100th:
“Believe me it happens but that’s not CC’s problem.”
I believe you. Can we go back to it for awhile in CC? Just kidding.
Scott,
I think that there are too many pastors who have decided to do things their way and have stopped listening to God and what He wants for them and HIS church.
God holds the authority. The pastor should be under HIS authority. The pastor needs to be listened to God in regards to the decisions that he makes.
The congregation should not be abused by the pastor or his family. As for me, I submit to God.
Well Lookin’
The scriptures pretty much call for more submission than you are confessing…need I illustrate?
Yes, Baby D, let’s hear ‘em.
Baby D,
No, thank you, I’m okay without the illustrations.
After being abused, my submission is to God.
Sorry Lookin’
Everyone of us has felt or been abused. That does not mean I can become my own authority whether pastor or people. We are all subject to more than the abstract subjection to God. We are subject to ordinances of men…to one another…to those in spiritual authority…to all kinds of things.
All your “I am subject to God alone” attitude will do is guarantee more conflict pain and trouble.
Love hurts and still we keep loving.. life together hurts and still we live life together.
How do I know that some kid fresh out of CBC who hangs out a shingle and calls himself a pastor is my authority?
Scott,
All submission in the Lord is voluntary…I do not think anyone has or should have power over you to run your personal affairs or limit your freedom in Christ.
CC pastors have this one reality…people can leave…
Scott,
“How do I know that some kid fresh out of CBC who hangs out a shingle and calls himself a pastor is my authority?”
You pray a lot!!! Wait on the Lord to give you discernment.
And people will if things continue as they have been. You’re right of course. But in CC submission the the pastor is compulsory, not voluntary if you want to keep from beng labeled “unsubmissive rebellious sheep”.
There is a Scriptural mandate for submission, as Baby D has pointed out.
There is also the exhortation to gather with the people of God.
Our pain cannot lead us to rebellion against the Word of God.
Good article by Dan Wallace on biblical eldership
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=414
I do not think it is any leader’s place to say whether a person is being submissive or not or to require submission to themselves. I think that should be for others to determine.
Submission is indeed very important in the Kingdom..we are all to be submitted one to another..a pastor is to be the chief servant..Jesus specifically made clear that in His kingdom, people should not “lord it over” their brothers..Jesus said that is the way of the world..He said His kingdom is to be different than the world..the greatest must be the servant of all.
Michael:
I was just thinking about this when you mentioned the article, specifically:
“(3) Elder and pastor are not the same thing in the NT. “Elder” refers to the office one holds by virtue of appointment or election; “pastor” is a spiritual gift that one is given by the Holy Spirit (cf. Eph 4:11; 1 Cor 12:7-11). One can have the gift of pastor without being an elder; and one can hold the office of elder without having the gift of pastor.”
Hey All-
God day to you all-
so lots have happened since Scott first posted.
A few things-
100th is right. CC’s are designed so that pastor’s are not hirelings, in the negative sense of the word. I see it in a local church here in New Brunwick. The pastor can’t implimnet anything. Lots of committees, lots of power plays adn jockeying for position. My heart breaks for the guy. But on the other side, there is the potentiality for abuse, which is what many here have experienced.
Scott, you are right. A true authority is one who is first under authority to Christ in his heart. This means that the cross adn cross-exalted living are at the forefront of his desires. A cross exalting leader will never “push” his authority upon someone else, let alone abuse someone wiht that power.
It’s true that some pastors are bent upon power and shouldn’t have authority over driving a car, let alone God’s children.
But the “I don’t have to submit to teh pastor’s authority” does have some limits, as Big Guy alluded to. Worship leaders are a tough bunch, no doubt. Maybe there was a submission to leadership problem. But yes, oftentimes, pastors are not confident in the Lord’s calling on their life and get jealous of another’s giftings. This is totally carnal and sad. But at the same time, the worship leader should defer to the pastor on things, as long as they are biblical. I’ll give you a lame example. Let’s say, the leadership is looking to do a time of testimony and praise reports. So they say, okay, we’ll cut 4 minutes out of the preaching time and one song from the worship. If the worship leader says no, well then that’s a problem. make sense?
Scott, I agree with you about submitting to someone jsut because they are a “pastor”. anyone can say that they are a “pastor”. But you probably don’t want to be in a fellowship with someone whose fruit is questoinable in the first place.
Blessings
I pretty much agree with that statement Scott.
I have never used the word submission with any church member…
I also tell husbands that if they have to use that word with their wife then they are too dumb for anyone to help them.
Michael…. I just sent you an e-mail.
Daniel:
Even if I do think he has fruit, does that mean I have to submit to him? What makes a pastor automatically an authority in anybody’s life?
Baby D,
I always appreciate what you have to say. Thanks.
we all have to submit..I mean, look at when we post here..we have to “submit our Comment..” this just proves Michael and Axe are power hungry sadistic authority mongers who just want to control everyone’s speech!!
Daniel:
By the way, its not always power that the pastor acts upon, it is often insecurity. Who gives a pastor any power, “the consent of the governed?”
Lookin’
TY but anyone who “always” appreciates what I say …probably is in some trouble…wink.
bless you
Cash…
yes, but we choose to submit. It is voluntary. Michael or Axe is not standing over you forcing you to submit.
Baby D,
I’m a lousy communicator.
Maybe so Lookin’
but you can make it wink…
True. And Michael and Axed won’t label you as unsubmissive if you just choose to read and not submit.
Lookin’-that was my pathetic attempt at humor..I’m really lame..I’m one of those guys who thinks everything he says is pretty funny but no one else does..;)
Oops!!! That was prideful!! Forgive me.
Cash…
LOL - are you my spouse?
The problem that people have is one of trust. They have been burned by leadership and it will take some time to view leadership without suspicion again for some time. I do not blame anybody who has been burned by a leader for just wanting to follow God and nobody else for awhile.
Michael (blog author) says:
Good article by Dan Wallace on biblical eldership
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=414
That article hits the nail on the head.
I’m curious about what DTS will say seeing he sees no normative model in Acts for church leadership.
I don’t see the development of leadership in Acts as ad hoc. In fact, I see the Holy Spirit sent Paul out to ordain elders (plural) in each city. Calvary Chapel is missing the mark of the NT church. It’s not “systematic teaching of the Bible”, it’s the elder led church.
(By “systematic teaching of the Bible” Calvary Chapel means going verse by verse and exegeting each verse all the way through the Bible).
Trust…what is that again?
Scott,
I agree with what you are saying and the intent in which you are saying it.
There is a hierarchy in churches. In an elder led church, the decision of the elders is expected to be adhered to. In Acts 7, the decision of the apostles as to who should tend to the Greek speaking widows, was to be adhered to. In a congregational church, whoever is voted onto the various committees, the decision of those committees is expected to be adhered to. Shall I keep going?
I am an undershepherd to the Lord in CCNB. I don’t make decisions for the people, nor do I expect blind obedience, nor to I ask for it. I simply hope that people will follow me (not as God, but as someone who is walking on the Calvary road, through the narrow gate) as I follow Christ. If I’m not following Christ, I hope that they will tell me so.
But if you want to be involved within a church, there is a government to which it works.
I’ll give you an example. I teach out of the NKJV (please no arguments
and we “expect” every kid’s church teacher, or every Bible study leader to use the NKJV. The only reason is that it will make Scripture memory easier. It’s not because I’m a NKJV only guy, it is just church policy. Let’s say, you came to CCNB and you said, “no way, i won’t do that” then, at that point, you wouldn’t be given the opportunity to lead a church sponsored study. You might think that is abusive or unfair, but it is policy and it is expected to be adhered to.
Daniel,
Would the teachers be able to read other versions of the verses to the kids(for better understanding), then have them memorize the NKJV? Or is that a no no?
Scott-The are many who are wounded–you know–I really love Jesus..He never hurt anyone. He is the Lord, but never “lorded it” over anyone. And He’s the one than God said for us to look at..
“”Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;” Isaiah 42:1-3, NIV.
I especially love that about Him..that he won’t break a bruised reed..bless His Holy Name!!
Lookin’-no, I’m not your spouse, but I gurantee you my spouse does not think I’m funny either
Where is the New Testament principle, or passages that lay out a senior pastor model?
Daniel..isn’t there other translations other than NKJV that are easier for kids to understand? And also, don’t you think that is a little too controlling?
Cash:
Yes. Praise God!
Daniel:
Who are “we” in you example? The elder board? Would you say that you have an elder-led church?
What about a case where leadership says that only pastor’s wives can teach/lead women’s Bible studies? On whose authority is a pastor acting when he makes that rule like that, do you think?
Daniel
Yikes! Are you serious?
Daniel..are there other things like that that you “expect” folks to adhere to??
Daniel:
You said, ” am an undershepherd to the Lord in CCNB. I don’t make decisions for the people, nor do I expect blind obedience, nor to I ask for it. I simply hope that people will follow me.”
I assume by follow me you mean imitate your faith, not do as you say. Am I right?
What do you make of this statement:
“We serve God. This is best done by supporting the individual that we are under. It is God Whom we seek to serve; to Him do we render obeisance; to Him alone do we bow. But He has shown us in His Word, that one of the best ways that this is accomplished, especially in our present context of ministry, is by unreserved support for those whom He has placed over us.”
Is serving God BEST done by supporting an individual we ere UNDER?
I’m terrible, aren’t I?
Daniel,
That policy (who, by the way constittutes “Church” when you say it’s church policy)is, well, I’m actually at a rare loss for words.
Do you pre-screen guest speakers?
Oh JJ:
I needed a laugh! I’m glad you’re here brother.
Daniel,
I have no problem with either your insistence on submission on the NKJV point…nor your explanation of it..
It is a good illustration of the kind of mutual submission needed in a church.. Is it fair to assume that you would not mind teachers who supplement adult teachings with other versions for illustration sake?
Bless you
JJ,
Daniel does not need to pre-screen. He only allows CC speakers to keep things nice and tidy, right Daniel?
Hi everyone! Why is there an add that says “meet LDS singles” on this page?
Gee, I go away for a few days and everythings changed! The site looks great but I don’t think there’s anyway I can catch up! Where’s the list of recent topics?
Does anyone want to play chess? How ’bout you, Skip Franklin?
Prayerfully:
How are you?
‘Cuz Mormon mamas are hot! There was another ad for Mormons Gone Wild IV.
Daniel,
You know that look on a man’s face when his wife wants an honest answer, but he knows an answer will cancel Christmas? That’s what your post about NKJV-only did to me.
I’m doing well Scott, how are you and the Other Half?
I understand Daniel’spoint on the NKJV. It does make it easier for memorization purposes.
Have you ever tried following a pastor using the NKJV or the NASB with an NLT?
Sounds like a different book.
OOps, I just realized I interrupted a whole conversation, how rude! Sorry guys!
TOH is at the pool with the kids at home. I’m in Decatur, AL. Nice and sticky here. Waiting on Daniel to tell us how he weeds people out of ministry.
I understand using a particular version for curriculum. Telling adults they can’t teach one another out of a variant Bible version is odd. Having different versions present often brings the meaning of a passage into sharper focus.
I’ve alays found KJV easier to memorize, but I like NKJV for teaching. I like NLT for reading. The Message, I don’t care for it much.
By the way I teach out of the ESV and most of my church use NET bibles I bought them a couple years ago.
I agree with JJ. Why is it so darned important to require something like that? It’s like nobody can be trusted with a different version. So what if I use my Lamsa Masoretic Text?
JJ, I thought this site had REALLY changed while I was gone!
I tried to read the NET awhile back, but the language seemed archaic to me. I know that some people prefer NET over NLT because NLT is a dynamic equivalent and not an actual translation.
Hi everyone,
Man, a guy goes away to balance the check book and wham-o, i have to answer 900 questions.
okay, i’ll do my best.
the NKJV only (which it isn’t really) is simply so that kids who begin in our kids church will be memorizing inthe same translation through kids church, jr. high, high school, college and so on. We feel that it will help them. Lookin up, yes it’s okay to use supplemental translations to help kids.
okay, other questions…
other rules. yes. no shorts or skirts below the knees on the worship team (or sunglasses), i know i know, i’m a dictator. 6 months in the church before you can start serving. you have to kiss my ring each sunday morning (whoops,you guys weren’t supposed to know that).
do i have only cC speakers? no. do i screen them? yes..
do i have an elder led church? Scott, are you trying to get me disfellowshiped :-)? in many ways. I don’t make ANY unilateral decisions (and that includes the clothes i wear, the wife always has the final word
Man,
You guys can argue over anything. I don’t tell them that they can’t read other versions. If you go around our congregation, you’ll see almost every mainline translation, and I don’t make them go out and buy another one. I’m not opposed to other translations.
I meant, do you pre-screen guest speakers to see which version they teach out of.
Meds,
Thank you for the “everybody has an opinion” point. Are you telling me that God is so concerned about the issue that the trinity had a conference, and said, “Calvary Chapel New Brusnwick better use NKJV-only?”
Why would He not employ the NKJV-only at every church? This is how religious jargon, such as “Well, this how they were lead of the Lord” reaches the point of absurdity.
In the years that we have been here, and the years that I served as an assistant pastor, we’ve never had one person complain about that policy.
Scott,
No soo sure about only the pastor’s wives can teach other women. We don’t do that here. Maybe I missed that memo. I didn’t know that the pastor’s wife was imbued with a teaching gift before she married the pastor, or somehow acquired one by saying “i do”
Meds,
You’re right. In the thousands of passages of Scripture, I cannot find one argument. People just “loved on each other” bro.
I don’t see anything out of sorts with Daniel’s stuff here.
I still think in KJV and it makes using other concordances a challenge at times…
JJ says:
I understand using a particular version for curriculum. Telling adults they can’t teach one another out of a variant Bible version is odd. Having different versions present often brings the meaning of a passage into sharper focus.
I think Daniel makes an interesting point. In leading a Bible study I’d love to be able to eliminate other translations (other than the NASB). Then I’d get around all that “but my Bible says this” which wastes so much time. But it would be a level of control that I’d prefer not to have.
I say let a thousand flowers bloom. I can see the desire to control though. I’m as prone to it as everyone else.
Daniel,
“other rules. yes. no shorts or skirts below the knees on the worship team”
You prefer the shorts or skirts above the knees?
LOL
I dunno, Michael. Telling adults they cannot teache one another from a different Bible is odd. It won’t get you into Hell, like lighting a candle, or having a picture of Jesus, or the Bitter Dove (TM), but it’s odd.
No I don’t prescreen teachers for them to use the NKJV.
But we did have 6 speakers do Good Friday service and I asked them all to use the NKJV so that it could jive with teh powerpoint. I’m a dictator, I know.
But I reference other versions often from teh pulpit and I’m sure that other teachers do as well
Medford:
“Different opinions and views — diversity — is okay in the Body of Christ.” I agree. That’s why I wonder why it’s so important which version one can use for children’s church.
LU,
heehhehe.
whoops.
absolutely, only women are allowed to be ont he worship team if they show a little leg. God forbid!
Come over to the dark side, Fusco. NAS, a-mill, partial pret,
presbyterian govt. Come on, Fusco. I like skirts above the knee too, Fusco.
Meds, no I wouldn’t. : )
JJ,
I’m happy on the the side of the force man.
You guys seriously are knitpickers.
NANNY NANNY POOH POOH
JJ,
In regard to a teaching device, I think it’s a good idea.
I don’t think he’s banning other versions, just trying to get consistency in the curriculum.
This is getting kind of petty…everybody in leadership has things we could jump on, including myself.
Oooooooohhhh Daniel:
So it’s okay for YOU to use other versons, just not anybody else.
So let’s argue about something else trivial.
I ask people to fill out a ministry application before they serve. Heaven forbid it.
We even do background checks on kid’s ministry applicants and call all references.
Perish the thought
Meds,
It’s not normal to allow free-thinking adults to choose which Bible they teach from? Okay, I’m the odd one, then. Should they pray in a particular dialect? “Only pray in King James.”
Look what you did, Fusco. Got me all up in here.
Oh yeah,
Did I mention that it asks about someone’s theological beliefs? Even eschatology?
Here comes the issues
Scott, it’s true. One standard for everyone else, a much more gracious standard for me.
CC-style all the way
It’s no big deal to me. Just strange. Next topic.
JJ,
If you don’t like it, then let your feet do the talking
HAHAHAHAHAHHAH
I’m hysterical tonight.
Daniel: Can you please see my 5:25 post?
Daniel,
It is sinful in this day and age not to do background checks.
Good for you…
JJ,
You are ban-ish-ed frometh before mine eyes.
Ye have greived my bowels.
For Thou art most exalted Lord-isheth.
Amen
You don’t want feet to do the talking, Fusco. Talk about bad breath. Meds, I think I need a tongues translator to explain to me that punchline.
Daniel:
“So let’s argue about something else trivial.”
If enough trivial things pile up resentment begins.
JJ,
That’s my KJV dialect for you.
Since you are an NAS guy, you’ll never understnad me now
three words for you Daniel,
Just say no.
As per your 5:25 post.
1) No they have to follow ME. I like wearing flip flops, if they are not showing some toes, they are not allowed in
2) Yes, you are terrible.
3) I don’t know who you are quoting, but you could probably do some more productive things with that book than quote it
Ohhh, I just noticed…
In the verse of the day, the NKJV is not listed.
That means I cna’t be here anymore.
And you have the AMP version, this site must be very purpose driven and emergent
i’m outta here
Oh. got me, Meds. I’ll remind my Latino friends that they are not translating one language to other when they teach, they are interpreting. Then, i’ll get punched in the face for being a gabacho. Do you need me to translate that, or interpret it? What were you saying about arguments, earlier.
I said it was a punchline.
Daniel:
Well, my bowels have been grieved over some bad KFC I had earlier, so I was thinking of using the book for that.
A CC pastor wrote that.
Fusco,
Will you lay hands on Scott’s bowels?
Now JJ,
It says call for the elders… I’m a CC pastor, we don’t have elders remember
Too late . . .
That last punch line did it, JJ. Good thing it’s not shiny paper . . .
What? It doesn’t say to call for the one elder? Oh that’s right. Ignatius instituted that rule.
Funny, Fusco. Funny.
I’m sorry that was too much.
Scott,
I think we’re breaking PP protocol. This stuff can only start after 10 pm.
So here’s a question.
JJ, are you the Mini-me version of JJS?
I noticed that we have “Phoenix Preacher” and “Medford Minister”. If we wnated to complete the Southern Oregon theme, we could have the “Talent Teacher” and the “Ashland Arminian”
Well I’ve been up since 5 and it’s 8:30 here, so I’m going to get some dinner, finish some work and go to sleep. Goodnight all, God Bless You all.
Colssians 2:5
Here’s my other question-
What’s up with all the Reformed guys and using hteir first two initials?
Does that have some sort of cultish meaning to it?
NT Wright
DA Carson
CJ Mahaney
Is it like, now that you are totally depraved, have been unconditionally elected, one of the lucky ones to have been atoned for, not being able to resist His grace and striving to persevere, then you are no longer allowed to use your full first and middle name because if you do, you were never really saved?
I’m very ponderous right now, be afraid, be very afraid
Oh no, Daniel. JJS has received an irresistable wooing to the Calvinist camp. I, on the other hand, in my total depravity, have not received the wooing yet.
Wait, so there is some assemblence of goodness left in you.
you are amil, partial pre, but not Calvinist?
You’re like Darth Vader about to throw the Emperor over the ledge.
You’ll be back
Oh, there’s more, Fusco. See, it’s fun to be post-Calvary.
sheep…
Umm…I believe in a plurality of elders. And my statements were not to the effect that there is nothing in the book of Acts that is normative, but that not everything is.
I actually met with my pastor this afternoon and we were discussing Church government issues. He was going over five principles with me and he prooftexted from Acts on three of the five. So I guess I actually agree with you on one thing, sheep: Calvary is hypocritical in the way they apply their “Acts as normative” principle because they clearly do not follow the model for Church government set forth in Acts.
That being said, I think I would like to say that I have probably overstated my case on the Acts issue…and it needs some nuancing. Forgive me.
JJ is hilarious as always.
Chess, anyone?
RC Sproul
CH Spurgeon
JJ Something
Fusco, you’re right!
DT Student
Good evening-
DT Student.
Do you go to 10th?
dts,
What was it like to be processing through your theology while at CCBC? Did others know you were moving in that direction? How were you received?
It’s JJ Fruchtenmissler.
But JJ,
You’re not a Calvinist. so you must use your real first name? Oh I forgot, you fear for your safety because the CC secret police might come after you and spank you with a Distinctives book.
Hey guys…
Daniel, I have gone to 10th a few times, but I actually go to a church out in Hatboro (10th is a bit big…don’t think I’d get an audience with Ryken).
And I was actually alluding to JJS (the Calvinist), and pretending the “s” stood for “something.”
But Fruchtenmissler is too much fun.
Fusco,
My name is Luka. I live on the second floor.
And JJ,
Working out my theology at CCBC was rather frustrating, to be quite honest, mostly because I felt at times like I was one of the only people doing it…not one of the only people coming to Reformed conclusions, but one of the only people actually working out my theology.
dts,
Are you writing out your response? I am really curious.
But Joe Holden was a tremendous encouragement to me at the time to continue seeking out the truth…even though he realized I was coming to conclusions that fell outside of the borders of “Texas.” He and I still communicate.
You want more? Because I can keep talking…
Oh, okay. Thanks. Any more light shed on that experience would be fascinating to me. Hey, can we hop over to the 100th Sheep v DTS thread? I hava proposition for you (no jokes, Fusco). I want to dialogue with, as a student/seeker asking you about Calvinism. I like to keep my mind open about theology, and actually hear terms defined by actual adherents. And, could we still play here, on this thread,a t the same time?
Hey Jj,
YOu live upstairs from me
I guess I think I’ve seen you before
sure thing…talk to you over there. Fusco, you’re welcome to join us and put in your own two cents
Yes, actually. It may just be me, but I sense CCers, cast a leary eye on those who are moving out of their theological camp. ‘THat dangerous preterism. That dangerous Calvinism.”
Good comments DTS on the normative aspects of Acts.
As a church that claims to teach through the Bible, the plurality of elders should be a lesson that CC gets from Acts. But since Chuck (sr) didn’t teach it they never got it.
Then again Chuck reads “the body that is buried shall be raised” and turns it into “the body will be replaced and have no necessary connection to the one that is buried” so anything is possible with such a methodology.
BTW, this sux since we have now one good Chuck (jr) and one bad Chuck (sr) and I feel the need to actually like and admire Jr. As much as I don’t want to like jr, I have to…
How do we push home this plurality of elders issue? The junk we see in CA and other places would not have happened in that sort of model. Maybe other stuff, but not that sort of stuff.
How can the elders judge if one is accused of something if there are not other elders.
CC seems to miss the boat by so far. It’s all a function of Chuck’s experiences with the 4Square that are to blame for his choices and that of his personality cult.
JJ has it right.
I won’t talk theology with you apostates.
Just kiddin
Scott - I’m back briefly to check in, looks like you got all the conversation you wanted, and I’ve learned plenty thru this thread tonight. I’m sorry I couldn’t help you more.
Michael - Is the ESV an update of the NRSV?
I see where Daniel’s coming from in regards to picking one version of the Bible to memorize Scripture and sticking with it. Thing is, I see value in many of the different translations and have had the KJV-only thing hammered in my head for years by the KJV apologists (including Pope Hawaiian shirt). My preference is the NKJV, but also using the NIV, NLT, NASB and other reliable versions to further understand the scripture. Also, I use the Message once in a while because Bono (the coolest guy on our team according to Mark Driscoll) likes it
When I read these different versions, I try not to think about Westcott-Hort and Alexandrian/Byzantine and demonic conspiracies and all of the other Misslerian stuff
I shall be back in two hours (assuming the toy department of the local branch of the Fourth Estate doesn’t fall apart before then)….
Sheep,
That’s always been an irony with CC. “We take our cue from Acts” but no model of Moses is found there, and clearly, the plurality of elders is there.
And James White thrashed KJV-onlyism. Not bad for a Calvinist.
Big Guy,
You a sports editor?
There is no demonic connection with the Alexandrian text…or with Westcott and Hort…or with the Nestle-Alan…or with the UBS 4. They are all superior texts. Missler is insane.
By “insane” I meant, “not totally sane.” Please take it in the most charitable way possible…
How could any man who believes in Aliens, Bible Codes, and Y2K be insane?
Heh. I kinda thought you were a newsman. A few days ago, you referenced a “graph” in a post. Only a newspaperman would do that.
“Crazy” Chuck Missler is certifiable.
http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/chuck-missler
Big Guy.
The ESV is a reworking of the RSV.
We Reformed types seem to have adopted it.
I use the NASB quite a bit also.
I just got the new HCSB New Testament and it reads very well also.
Big guy…Louisville winning the BCS? I’d rather not put the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy to the test by trying to find that anywhere in scripture.
dts…really, for the more literal minded among us…I wasn’t. It was a joke - have you read Michael Drosnin’s books - the ‘Bible code’ predicted Bush winning in ‘00 in controversial manner, predicted 9-11, predicted Bin Laden, predicted a nuclear holocaust which will kill us all…..
Thanks Michael - I had heard it was a good version.
Big guy…
I was actually trying to go along with your joke…sorry.
No, I haven’t read Drosnin…but I’ve heard of Bible code theories.
sorry dts…you never know when someone’s gonna take a joke literally…maybe I’m too sensitive.
I thought you were a Kentucky fan though
Nebraska fan…sorry.
Don’t be. If Nebraska ever starts to have the types of years that UK always has, the rioting there will be so intense the pre-tribbers there will start looking to the skies
Daniel:
Our family wanted to standardize on a version and we chose NKJV as well. However, our pastor uses ESV and requires it in my kid’s school. I understand it makes it easier for the school to make everyone do it the same version, but in a sense, isn’t that showing disrespect for the families that are trying to teach their children scripture outside of just the church services and Christian schools?
Well…
Up until last year, it looked like it was headed that way…the beginning of the birthpangs?
sorry…the last comment was with reference to Big Guy’s remark about Nebraska.
JJ,
Jude found a coffee mug that says, “I’m bitter”. Buster said he wants to send a coffee mug to Churck Jr. for posting. Think this mug would suffice?
Bitter dove thread is great. Funny how jesting can lead to a thread.
Teach scripture outside of the Church? OUTSIDE OF THE COVERING???! Where are the ushers?!
yes…the downfall of Nebraska football is one of the signs…it’s in the Bible Code….the other sign is when if Kentucky football busts into the top 10 and goes to the Sugar Bowl…if America doesn’t get destroyed first for opposing Bush…or is it voting for Bush…maybe Jackie Alnor can set us straight
Scott:
Wow, your post way back on the thread kind of shocked me. I know you are a worship leader and I have been one as well, and I can not imagine not doing what my leadership told me to do, unless it was immoral. I see the elders (including the speaking elder) as being over me and if they want me to sing “Just As I Am” 20 times, I’m going to do it. However, if a pastor was consistently giving me a lame song list, I might let them know that maybe they have the wrong man for the job and bow out.
Let’s put it this way: how would you like it if your drummer liked to do the song twice as fast as you practiced? Or your lead guitar player felt like he wanted to add a screaming lead on top of the vocals? Or your sax player said he wanted to play a kazoo for the set?
But real leadership is earned. If you have to remind people to submit to you, there is probably something wrong. True story, there was a time in my life after my dad died that I was not doing a good job with leading: unprepared, not sure of myself, making too many last minute changes. I lost respect with a couple of the band members and they would roll their eyes whenever I made a mistake or didn’t play something exactly like we practiced. The drummer asked me how come I was always the leader and I think I said something harsh to him. In retrospect, I should have set out of worship leading for a few months instead of losing respect of the team.
If I have to remind my wife that she must submit to me, something is wrong (tried it, it doesn’t work). If a pastor is telling you to submit to him (and close friends or spouse aren’t), you should probably get out of that ministry.
There is a principle of obeying authority unless they are in violation of a higher authority. A wife should submit to her husband, but if that husband is beating her, she should submit to the higher authority and go to the police as the husband is in violation of the laws of the land. I submit to my pastor, but where I believe he is in violation of the Word of God, I do not believe I am called to obey. But I thought the worship leading example you chose was weak as I do not think poor song selection is a moral issue.
Anyway, thanks so much for how much you add to the blog and your insights in so many areas.
Pilgrim,
I’m not sure what thread and comment you are referring too, but I do know in the book “Follow Me” by Ken Merrihew, that Mr Merrihew used an example of a situation between the drummer and worship leader to explain the importance of submitting to the ministry leader. Mr. Merrihew’s belief is that a person should submit to a ministry leader as a wife submits to her husband and the person should submit even if you think the leader is wrong. He believes that a ministry worker shows obescience to Christ by showing unreserved support for the ministry leader. Scott may have been commenting on the quotes from the book.
Pilgrim, good comments. Thank you for sharing.
Buster,
See post to JJ. Jude found a coffee mug that says,”I’m bitter today”. Could we send that to Chuck Jr.? We could attach a bitter dove sticer and a PP sticker to make the gift complete.
Big Guy,
BOOMER SOONER, BOOMER SOONER…………
Sorry, guys, but I completely agree with Daniel!
Daniel said: “I say let a thousand flowers bloom.”
p.s. just catching up on my reading …
dst,
Are back on the 100/dst thread?
TOH,
I think what’s gotten lost in th shuffle is that the Bitter Dove (TM) is for those that post here, and say critics of CC are bitter. Fusco’s NKJV thing is a non-issue for me. Just goofy. Maybe Preach will mandate a KJV font for the blog.
But yeah, Jr. should get a mug. I am so ministered to by that man’s teaching and spirit.
JJ - a KJV font wouldst be most cooleth…
TOH - art ye speaking with a strange tongue??? I knoweth not anyone in the Bluegrass state or a Philistine Hoosier who can interpreteth…perhapst dts, being the Nebraska apologist, canst tell me if this is Biblically legiteth…
I don’t have much time during the day to read and post here. I usually sit and read various posts late at night. I chime in when I can. Scott provoked some good conversation about authority and submission. It really is an issue with him right now as well as I regarding submission to spiritual authority. It seems God gives us a choice as to where we will fellowship. We should be seeking God regarding who He wants us to serve “under”. In our situation, with our “problem” church, I immediately saw a problem and Scott wanted to hang in there. He confronted the ministry leaders about the “issues” and made sure I was out of any ministry a particular ministry leader was over. Scott sought to protect me, which I am grateful. This to me is an example how an authority, my husband, was looking out for my good. I submitted to God and my husband in this situation. God protected me. I’m sure the ministry leader thought Scott and I were in rebellion to her.
TOH,
I was the first one to “engage” Scott when that conversation started, and I wasn’t sure where he was going with it. I hope I was able to help him out. It’s obvious you two have done your homework on this issue - heck, you’ve lived it out - and I support and pray for you both.
Hello The Other Half, did you have a good day?
Big Guy and The Other Half,
Sorry, I dropped in on your conversation … I had problems with my computer system today. I was reading at the above posts (6pm ish) and the guys were in a deep discussion about Bibles/versions. Saw that line about flowers … couldn’t resist. ha. Actually, it was 100th Sheep who made the flower comment, not Daniel. You know, how you get the giggles…(getting tired).
Lamp,
I’m not sure if there’s a conversation or not. I got off work an hour ago and am hanging around to see if anything develops here…how have you been doing?
Big Guy,
When thou livest in Oklahoma, thouest mustest submitteth and be a Sooner Football Faneth and singeth Boomer Sooner or thou shalt be asketh to leave the state due to rebellion.
I think all the responses gave Scott perpective. I believe God, in His sovereignty, gives us a choice about who we serve Him “under”. I have made my choice. I choose not to serve in a Calvary Chapel. I choose not to put my soul under a shepherd who can never receive correction with grace, but has the attitude that anyone who does try to correcteth is a baaaad, rebellious sheep in needeth of repentance with much fasting. The choices I’ve made about where to fellowship, were made with much prayer to God for wisdom and guidance.
Big Guy,
We enjoyed a relaxing weekend—family and sunshine. It was nice to read Pastor Chuck’s letter. Axed has worked really hard this weekend. I felt badly there were problems. He’s a good guy.
Lamp of My Soul,
How are you? It seems I’m only here late at night. Thank you for the roses on your table. I had a very good day. Went swimming, met some neighbors, God gave me opportunity to share the gospel. Praise God. Scott was asking others, earlier about submission and authority. He sparked some conversation.
Thanks, TOH. I figured Scott was working through something in his mind, hence the questions…
It probably helped me a little, too. So many good debaters on this site. I usually comment on what I see, sometimes before I think. As the Scripture says, iron sharpens iron…
If you could answer one question for me it would tell me all I need to know about Oklahoma: do you even care that Kelvin Sampson is gone?
Lamp, I’m glad you enjoyed this Memorial Day. I hope the food was good, and I hope your computer problems are solved
Maybe Axed can fly down and install a new web browser for you if IE crashes on you
Big Guy,
Did you see that the major paper in San Antonio has placed a ban on puns in headlines? That would kill you sports guys.
The Other Half,
I’m so glad you had a relaxing day. You would love the roses. They smell so good in the house.
My husband went swimming too. He worked on the pool equipment all day, preparing it for summer.
I weeded my rose garden. It was a beautiful day.
Church was great on Sunday. We have a wonderful worship band. This gal … she can sing beautifully. She made tears come to my eyes. The Holy Spirit just flowed through the sanctuary. It was nice.
Thanks for all your notes regarding the computer Big Guy. We are going to work on updating my system …
Big Guy, how was your weekend?
JJ - what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger…
I thought about coming over to the 100th Sheep thread, but it’d be like me trying to suit up for the Lakers…
No way, man. C’mon over. I’m just asking questions. I want the Calvinists to explain what they believe, because I do believe they can be caricatured, like anyone else.
Where did you see that about the San Antonio Express-News? Just went few a couple of journalism web sites and didn’t see mention of it.
Big Guy,
My dad is a very big OU fan. We used to go to the games together. Now my dad is sick and unable to go to the Ou games. I’m ashamed to say, I haven’t kept up with recent OU happenings. I been involved with caring for my dad. We did watch some basketball together, but I don’t keep up with the names like I used to.
I think Scott knows the answers, but he is wanting feedback from everyone. Sounds like Michael receives some harsh e-mails from CC pastors (he shared portions of one the other day on a thread). Scott has as well, from one. Big blue caps. I told Scott this: There are CC pastors who have received Christ at CC, trained in CC ways and become CC pastors. Some CC pastors have this mentality: 1. The people in the congregation should never confront the pastor about a leadership problem, if they do they are unbibilical, rebellious and out of God’s will. They need to repent. 2. CC pastors are the president, CEO and Chairman of the board. I read By-laws for CCA, Skip Heitzig was listed as all three in the By-laws. Later, when Pete came on the by-laws were changed to say the Sr. pator was the president. Skip remained CEO ane Chair of the Board. If the Sr. pastor has this much power, then it is easy for them to say submit to me or leave. The problems remain. Issues unresolved.
Big,
http://www.visualeditors.com/forum/archive/san-antonio-bans-puns-in-headlines-5086.htm
Thanks, JJ - I didn’t know you were in journalism yourself?
TOH - I am so sorry to hear about your dad. Please, cherish every moment you can with him. When my dad got sick years ago things started to happen rapidly, within weeks. He went to be with the Lord on a Memorial Day, in fact. I remember he talked about going to see “Saving Private Ryan” and when it came out he didn’t feel strong enough to do it. I couldn’t understand then, now I do. Given your situation, I wouldn’t think about Kelvin Sampson either.
Sorta. Just getting started. It’s actually why I don’t want to give out my name - that whole objectivity thing. Now I feel bad for all the typos, and non-spell-checking I do around here. Oh well. It’s a blog. And no deadlines, right?
Big Guy,
Thank you for your kind words about my dad and understanding that he is more important than Kelvin Sampson. I do cherish every moment I can have with him. I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your dad.
Do you think my perceptions of some CC pastor’s mentality is correct? This is what I’ve gleaned from my experiences and reading various CC leadership writings.
Big Guy, I’m sorry about your father. Today must have been a difficult day. You are in my prayers, friend. You are a nice person. Your father would be proud of you.
The Other Half, a sweet soul you are to care for your father so faithfully. Enjoy this Fathers’ Day with him.
I went out to Dana Point Harbor today and placed roses in the water for my father. He is buried at sea.
It’s time for bed.
Goodnight friends.
Lamp,
Scott’s dad is buried at see as well.
I will enjoy this Father’s Day with him.
Sleep well.
TOH - thanks. As I said, hopefully you’ll have many more years with him.
Re your question about some Calvary pastors’ mentality, I think you’re right. There are bound to be some people like that in any system, but perhaps the Calvary system allows that to flourish much more than it could in an elder-run church. Have you ever thought about how easy it is to start a Calvary Chapel vs. a Southern Baptist or PCA church - the years of seminary study and training you can skip (no pun intended)?
One other thing I wanted to say: When I asked you that question about Kelvin Sampson it was in a general sense - my point being that football is said to be so big in that state that the basketball coach leaving is irrelevant - like saying Ghana qualified for the World Cup.
Lamp,
You know I mean I will enjoy Father’s Day with my dad. Just responding to you/your comments, but when I read my response it sounded funny.
Oh, Big. You got me started.
Calvary Chapel Pastor Skips Town.
For: Big Guy’s Dad, Scott’s Dad and my Father
and our children (all those we remember today):
I’ll Remember You
I’ll remember you,
When I’ve forgotten all the rest,
You to me were true,
You to me were the best …
When the roses fade
And I’m in the shade,
I’ll remember you…
by: Bob Dylan
TOH: Yes, I understand what you mean.
Lamp,
That’s sweet.
Big Guy,
OU basketball seems almost as big as the football, at least in our family, until recently.
Anyone can start a church. I understand it is relatively easy to get a liscense to preach. How does the typical CC get started? Does the pastor start a fellowship, then seek affiliation? Must be alot of sweat, hardwork and tears to get a church off the ground. No wonder these CC guys start thinking they own the church and the people in it. They seem to lose focus of Whose church they are pastoring.
So, how does anything get resolved with the “I’m in charge” mentatlity?
Nothing like a little Bob Dylan on Memorial day to remember my loved ones. Thanks Lamp!
TOH,
I know a little about church-planting. A tiny bit, but a little.
I attended a Foursquare church plant here in town for a few years. The pastor had a team with him (mostly people who knew him from a group he led at a bigger charismatic church in town). But they started from scratch - a few dozen people, and they rented the gym in an elementary school for a long time. The church is still around, by the way. My brother, who pastors a charismatic church in another part of town, and his wife started from scratch and rented a room in a convention center.
Rarely do the people who started out with you stay a year, two years. There’s a lot of work getting the word out about the church, trying to grow it, finding a place to meet. Then there’s the normal work of a church - ministering to the people, missions work, evangelism, getting a sermon ready for Sunday. It’s an insane amount of work. I think the CC pastor here went through a similar experence, because when he came here in the early ’90s there were very few Calvary Chapels east of the Mississippi.
Community of Kindness by Steve Sjogren and Starting a New Church by Ralph Moore will give you a good picture of what these guys go through and the time and work (and prayer and faith) involved.
I wouldn’t say these guys lose perspective. Fusco and Centorian’s probably examples of when it turns out right. I’d put the three local guys I mentioned in that category. Certainly there are pastors who let it go to their head. That seems to be a major problem in Calvary; this is a reason why this blog is here.
TOH - sorry I didn’t answer your question about how anything gets resolved with the “I’m in charge” mentality. I would guess if the man’s that bent on getting his way, people try to reason with and talk to him…when it doesn’t work, they eventually leave. It may not be the best solution, or the right one, but it’s the easiest solution. Why go through that crap with this guy? It’s not worth it. I’ll find somewhere else to go. The pastor of course sees them leave, doesn’t see the problem, and goes about his merry way.
Big Guy,
Fusco and Centorian seem very caring. Their contribution to this blog is valued. When I speak of abusive pastors in CC, I don’t really count them in that category. Regarding the start up churches you mentioned, what type of church government did they have? I believe no matter what type of church one starts, it is very hard work. I think the work of a pastor is probably one of the more stressful callings one can have.
We have been part of two differnt start up CC’s, one in Oklahoma and one in NM. The pastor starts the fellowship with a small group, then seeks affiliation. Affiliation seems to be based on the recommendation by other CC pastors.
Big Guy,
Seems if people keep leaving, then new people come to serve, you have a revolving door. The new people have a similiar experience as the one’s who just left. The problem is still there, but it is there with a whole new group of people. So, it all starts over. It reminds me of a dog chasing it’s tail. So people get hurt over and over. There is never any resolution. I believe abusive pastor’s should be confronted. You take the risk of making some people really mad. You know in your heart the leaders aren’t going to listen to you, but something in you says you have to try and not give up.
I’m researching that now…gimme a minute…
Big Guy,
There are CC pastor’s who believe we are in rebellion because we are on this blog speaking our mind. They believe we should get off this blog and repent. Get back to reading the Bible and praying. Some CC pastor’s feel we are being irreverent to them and we are not in submission to authority. Actually , we are a voice saying there is a problem with the leadership structure in CC and some pastors are abusive. We desire some type of change for the better.
Sorry this took so long. I’m not sure if my brother acts on his own or if he has a few people who help him run the church (which is really small). I’ll have to ask him. As far as the individual church in Foursquare, there is a church council, from four to 12 elders, picked by the congregation, which runs the church itself. The pastor is approved by the Foursquare denomination itself. There’s a chain of command you can go up if you have an issue with the pastor - the district office, the regional office, the ‘central’ office in Van Nuys.
I’m with ya, TOH. Most people, if a pastor came at them with what you’ve been saying, would tell him to hit the road - myself included.
I’ve noticed too that Calvary Chapels have some sort of revolving door. When I came back to the local CC a second time, most of the people I knew from the first time around weren’t there.
Big Guy,
Thanks for the info. Nice chatting with you. I’m off to bed. Good night. Take care.
TOH -
Here’s a link to look at if you want to know what Foursquare’s government is all about:
http://www.foursquare.org/landing_pages/11,3.html
Good night to you and God bless.
Big Guy,
Went to the link and read about Foursquare government. Foursquare is a denomination. I wonder if there is accountability and a way to resolve problems in this type of church structure? I wonder what the attitude of the pastors are in resolving issues? I know a pastor, who is a Foursquare pastor now. He used to be a CC pastor. His wife and I are friends.
A no win situation. The people may hit the road if they see an ungodly attitude in the pastor regarding resolving disagreements. Additionally, the pastor may tell the people, who confront him with an issue, to hit the road if they don’t agree with him. Me thinks this makes for a huge revolving door.
When you came back a second time to CC, you said many people had left the church. Do you know why they left? Were any of these people your friends?
The Other Half
You’ve been doing some reading? I was up last night reading the ‘wiki’; CC structure, 1981, lawsuits, beliefs. I wish I would never have set foot in a Calvary Chapel. Wish I’d had a clue to all the falseness of the movement/denomination. I’m kicking myself, again.
I need my Bitter Mug of coffee.
Hey Jude,
Where did you find that bitter coffee mug? I’d like to have one. I think it would make a great Father’s Day present.
I have been reading alot too. I’ve been reading Skip’s letters and the CCA By-laws/changes in the by-laws.
Is the “wiki” growing? Did you add anything to it? I’ll have to go there and read up on it.
The Other Half
Mug found at a department store called Kohls.
I did not add anything to the ‘wiki’. I just couldn’t believe I’d missed hearing stuff about Chuck predicting the return of Christ in 1981. If I would have known that I would never have graced the door of a CC.
Maybe I’m just startin’ to get bitter. JJ. . .?
Is someone gonna give Jude a Bitter Dove TM award?
Oh Please! Please can I have a Bitter Dove TM award.
I’ll give one to ya!
Ding, ding, ding, ding. Cool now I really do belong to the group.
Hey JJ,
Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!
We have a winner! Get a Bitter Dove award for Jude. Smile.
Actually JJ explains the Bitter Dove Award above. It is meant for people who come on here and accuse the abused brothers/sisters in Christ of being “bitter”.
Jude, I’m not really sure you qualify.
Yeah, I’m not bitter.
I was just very tempted to change my name and pretend to be one of those CC loyal folks who comes on and accuses everybody of being bitter. I even thought of challenging myself to a game of chess…I mean a Calvinism debate.
Seriously, everyone…sorry about all the Calvinism talk…it just happens to be one of the issues that I personally had to leave Calvary over, and from my first day on the “why did you leave?” thread, that has been my issue because, well…that’s why I left. I know it might not seem as noble as standing up against an adulterous pastor or being spiritually abused (though I have personal issues as well), but it’s what I have.
I joined a Presbyterian church as much because of the drastic improvement in church government structure as because of the theology.
Jude,
You are not bitter, just your cup of coffee.
Hee Hee.
disillusioned theological student
I don’t think anyone minds your Calvinism talk. My mind is not geared up for such deep discussion or I’d join ya in a game of chess. I think its nap time.
Can’t I just get a regular ole Calvary Dove?
Oh wait, I already have one
The Other Half
Should my coffee ever be bitter I would spew it out of my mouth. Ya gots ta doctor it up. Does anyone have a pastry?
I was checkin’ out a church on line and instead of offering coffee and donuts they offered coffee and a pastry. Now that sounds like a church for me. HA!
Daniel,
Is your dove falling out of the sky too?
Honorary degrees. Honorary Bitter Doves (TM). Slap one one, Jude.
DTS,
Wanna contibnue tip-toeing through the TULIP on the other thread?
Gosh JJ, Thanks. Here’s one of those nice Christian handshakes.
Not enough, JUde. I want a full-frontal CC man-hug, with a “Love ya bro” and two pats on the back.
Okay, now I’m really uncomfortable.
TOH - You might want to shoot an email off to Foursquare itself, or better yet, ask your friend and her husband (the Foursquare pastor) those questions. He’s in the denomination, he ought to know what’s going on and how it works
From what I saw in the Foursquare bylaws, and what little I knew about that church’s government, the country is divided into districts - someone, usually a pastor, is the district administrator. Districts are grouped into regions - a regional administrator, well, administers it. I’m not sure if they’re active pastors, or have ministerial credentials. At least that’s the way it is in Kentucky and Tennessee. Then from what I can tell is the national denominational office in Van Nuys. Kentucky –> Kentucky/Tennessee –> Atlantic –> National.
As far as the people in my CC church, I knew some of them pretty closely. They left for various reasons, none of them as far as I know having to do with a conflict with the pastor, and as far as I know are serving the Lord elsewhere. As I said, the CC pastor here by all accounts seems to be a pretty good guy.
I love black coffee…even if it is bitter. Bitterness is an acquired taste, you know. I’ve been working on acquiring the taste for black coffee since I was six years old, and now I’m perfectly happy with it…talk about given over to sin! We really need to get rid of after-worship coffee fellowship at our churches, as it seems very likely that a root of bitterness may spring up among the six year olds that could destroy our churches in time.
Jude,
I’m not comfortable with the man-hugs either. It’s kinda like worship songs that talk about being “touched” by Him. I think a lot of men get turned off by the feminization of discipleship and worship. Just let us be men.
I’m not insensitive, I just don’t like feeling as though I need to take a bath after a praise session.
A little earlier in this thread, Patti wrote…
May 29th, 2006 3:35 pm
Dear 100th Sheep:
I am on the board of Hope For The Children with Jeff Smith. The corporation is still alive.
___________
The farmhouse that is located on the CC Twin Falls/CSN complex is owned by the Hope For the Children. ??????
I believe I was in the middle of things when this whole “bitter” issue came up initially. http://phoenixpreacher.com/?p=520
In that specific thread Centorian was the first to use the word and then GC did. Centorian was completely left alone about his use of the word accept for maybe one post. GC stuck around and took some hits. Am I correct that this is the thread where this idea of the dove began???
Black coffee is a sure antidote to man-hugging and sentimental praise songs.
I hugged a grieving woman after Church on Sunday….was afraid someone might catch me and ask me why I stepped out of the “vigorous handshake” form. Oh well….I guess my Calvary background has too firm of a grip on me still.
But if it means bringing some compassion and transparency to my Presbyterian Church, so be it.
I can one-up Bush’s “compassionate conservativism” with some “compassionate Calvinism.”
Big Guy,
Thanks again for the info. about Foursquare. I think I will give a call to my friend in Foursquare. I haven’t talked to her in a few weeks. She would be able to tell me specifically how CC and Foursquare differ in handling conflict since she has been involved in both. I know she can give me more details about the structure and government. I did read throught the website you referenced.
What a blessing that your CC pastor in your area seems like a good guy. Praise God for him.
Hope you are having a good day.
Let me know what she says, TOH.
JJ
I just read your 9:11, I am very relieved to know how you “feel” about that man hug thing. I was kinda getting worried, knowing how ‘Brokeback’ inspires you and all. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but, well, you know.
Now, where’s the coffee?
Big Guy says …
dts…really, for the more literal minded among us…I wasn’t. It was a joke - have you read Michael Drosnin’s books - the ‘Bible code’ predicted Bush winning in ‘00 in controversial manner, predicted 9-11, predicted Bin Laden, predicted a nuclear holocaust which will kill us all…..
Amazing how hindsight is 20-20.
Still waiting on the nukes to fall, 100th.
Funny how people’s dreams and visions and prophecies and Bible codes always end up with doom and gloom.
yeah…especially if you know what you’re looking for.
Jude says:
You’ve been doing some reading? I was up last night reading the ‘wiki’; CC structure, 1981, lawsuits, beliefs. I wish I would never have set foot in a Calvary Chapel. Wish I’d had a clue to all the falseness of the movement/denomination. I’m kicking myself, again.
Glad to hear you are getting a lot out of the wiki. If anyone wants to be a contributor there’s a lot of work left to be done.
http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/
Anyone have bible code software? I did a search in Hebrew of “MSLR LR” (Missler Liar) and got a strong hit with the freeware Bible Code Software I downloaded.
Dude…I just checked out this Jackie Alnor’s website…she is nuts.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
They make Dave Hunt look good.
Does Chuck Smith endorse that crap?
Say there 100th Sheep. Are you using me in a commercial? Do I get some kinda kick back or royalties or somethin’?
I am kidding of course and sorry if I offended you. Can’t be to careful these days.
I did enjoy reading all the stuff you have on that site. Very interesting. Thanks.
100th,
what is the link to that Bible code freeware you referenced?