Axed I will give you a short rundown on my experiences in Hungary.
Before reading this you have to read JJS' post. I do not want to repeat what his story was. Basically if it wasn't for JJS I would still be in Hungary. Our stories are only similar because we are both reformed but how we got there and how our churches treated us is not.
I was enrolled at CCBC and I was just happy to be there. I was not about to question what I was being told and anyone that opposed what Larry Taylor or Chuck Smith preached was going to get an ear full. I argued with many wayward students and one guy who had just been released from prison and found CCBC through a catalog would just listen to all of us and then would ask me questions. Ken did not know he was reformed, his stint in prison gave him a lot of time to read and so the Bible and some Bible studies were what he spent time with. He asked me questions that in the end led to me embracing the doctrines of grace. It wasn't just a logical choice but I was struggling with the cross and what it actually accomplished, what does it mean when we say Jesus died for you. Soon after that Larry Taylor approached me about working at the Bible College and I let him know that I was struggling with these questions. Larry said that it didn't matter as long as I "loved Jesus' and didn't get on a soap box.
At my home church in Redlands I found many people to talk to about these things. I didn't know how volatile an issue it was until I was in Hungary. I approached it like a christian smoking, we do it but don't let anyone know. It was never a secret from those I ministered with that I believed those things. I was told by the pastor in Redlands pretty much the same thing Larry told me and that Brian Brodersen had told Jason.
When I arrived in Hungary Jason was neck deep in his studies. We got to know each other and the rumors started up. Most of them had Jason leading me down the path to Calvinism. The truth is we were both working through things while ministering as pastors. This is where things got real murky for me. Everyone from my church knew what I believed and I had been "cleared" for ministry and assured that I had the support of the church. When Brodersen issued the ultimatum my head was spinning. I didn't know Brian or Chuck, I wasn't from Costa Mesa and my pastor had told me that no matter what happens I have their support so it never occured to me that I would be leaving Hungary. The ultimatum was no choice at all, how can I trade in my beliefs about the Gospel for a position, it also helps to be stubborn when taking a stand.
Unlike Jason I was in contact with Ed Rea, my pastor at the time, and my support would continue until my wife, who is Hungarian, gave birth to our child and we could get her visa straightened out. This was very encouraging to me until I met with one of the elders who explained to me that no company continues to pay someone who is going over to a competitor. When I told him that we are the body of Christ not a corporation he told me I need to grow up. This encounter made me feel a lot better about what was taking place. I did not want to be in Corporate America.
This time in Hungary allowed me to say goodbyes to some dear folks that I had grown close to over the years and for my wife to spend some time with her parents. We went to the annual conference where we could visit with those we see only once a year. While there the kid who had taken over the church I had been pastoring went to Ed Rea with concerns that I was leading the "sheep" astray. Ed berated me in front of this guy and told me to not speak to people from the church. I was a little shocked and when I asked if he was seriously telling me I couldn't speak with other adults who had questions as to why I was leaving he reminded me that as long as I get a check from them he could tell me who I could and could not have contact with. After I cooled off I confronted him on his assertions at which time he let me know it was all a show to let the young pastor feel good about things.
It is really a mixed bag. A year after returning my brother passed away at age 38 and Ed Rea along with a few other CC Redlands folks showed up at the funeral. I share these stories because the way abuse happens in most cases is with men who think they are hearing from the Lord. Ed berating me was a result of his feeling that God would have him support this 20 year old pastor. At the same time when he hears of my loss he makes an appearance to show support, which I was extremely touched by. There continues to be this idea that I left on my own and Ed tells people that when the subject comes up. On the one hand he wants to be there for me in my time of sorrow and on the other he makes statements that cast doubt on my character. As is probably obvious from these comments I am still dealing with some of my hurts from these events.
Along with Jason I do not regret what happened. It was providence that allowed it and as a result I hope to be starting seminary in August, Lord willing. Phoenix Preacher has also allowed me to meet up with some old friends, reconciliation with a dear brother who took the initiative to write me after seeing me on here, and even connecting again with Don McClure who was my pastor as I was growig up. It is rare that someone gets involved with ministry with the hopes of hurting people, splitting churches, and building a kingdom but with "success" comes a lot of opportunity for all those things. I thank God for His grace towards me and I pray that I do not fall into those same sins when I am in that position but if I do the session (elders) will correct me. (Presbyterianism really does work!) There will always be good endings for God's people so as we work through our issues we can do so with the confidence that we are in His care.
Sam Khoury
Sam,
Thanks for Sharring, I really think people need to know the truth. No more sweeping the dirt under the rug. I am considering writting my story and submitting it the phoenix preacher. I hope others will do the same. You and Jason are saints and marytrs. I am glad that your beliefs in Christ matter more to you than your position in Calvary. You are an encouragement and great example to all.
God Bless You my Brother,
Jacob Lee
Sam,
Thanks for sharing.
The stories are different but CC’s motive of operation seem to be the same. No need to list them they’re obvious.
Although I am not surprised when I hear a new story strangely enough I always seem to have this feeling of disbelief that these things are happening….even when I have personal experienced it myself.
Lord help us. Something is wrong in Your church!
Just a little Calvinist note…
I used to be a youth pastor about 5 miles away from CCBC, serving at a mildly reformed church. My wife decided to take a class or two at CCBC. She owns many different Bibles, but on her first day of class she brought her New Geneva Study Bible, which was edited by RC Sproul. Before class even started, a few of the students took note and told her she might want to bring a different Bible…the NGSB was not going to go without some notice. She took a class on 1 John and although she appreciated many qualities in the intstruction, she was disappointed in the heavy anti-calvinist teaching that seemed to pop every once in a while.
Pineapple Head,
On the topic of bibles, on of my favorite bibles is the Jerusalem Bible. It is a great translation and for fans of Tolkien (Lord of The Rings) He was one of the translators. I must for warn though it is a “catholic” bible.
Thought I would share,
Jacob Lee
Sam, Can we copy your story to the Wiki?
I am appreciative of these stories…Horror stories… I assume that those named could come here with rebuttals. For instance we do not know from the other side just how these disclosures of why you (sam) left were being made. In other words was it perceived that you were trying to garner support for your cause and stir the people to see the injustice?
Now here is my question. If someone was teaching Calvary Chapel theology…lets say they are an associtate in a reformed church. They are told to stop …they do not because of their conviction. Then they are released but given some time ….say 3months before they must leave. In which time they are being paid.
Now I suspect the reformed pastor would say that if you taught against reformed theology in that 3 months you would be released without pay immediately. Frankly, I would do such a thing. Now people are asking you why you are leaving. What do you say? Honesty would require you to say that you are leaving over theological differences. Then you have a choice. You must either make a defense of your position or simply be silent about the nature of it.
Sam I do not know you situation. But the scenario that I outline above is pretty true to life. Honestly, none of us would pay someone to continue teaching theology that is contrary to the teaching of local church. We would act decisively.
Now you should be treated with dignity and your basic needs cared for. But you should not continue to stir trouble in the church by sharing the teaching that got you fired. Both sides are compelled to die a little and treat each other honorably.
Sam I am not in any way suggesting that you did not do so. I am simply raising an issue. I wish this Ed Rhea would come in an discuss it since his name is posted.
btw I was on the splitting church end of a teaching controversy. So I know how complex it is. One thing is sure we must treat those with whom we disagree with dignity.
I only wish blessing for you Sam…
Baby D,
Sam and Jason I believe have both stated that they were not teaching Calvinism but believed it.
The commentors from Hungary that I have seen on the blog seemed to have no notion what calvinsim is or was to Calvary did what it did.
Axed
BD and I would fire each other
Gracefully…
Sam, thanks for telling your story. The church as a corporation. Hmmm. I thought the church was the people of God. Maybe I need to finally grow up and start thinking like an adult
Axed,
Did my post sound as if I was attacking Sam… not my intention but I am pretty good at provocation. It is just that these men were treated in such a bizare fashion that I am wondering what the other perspective is. And not to be combative but, how do you really come to believe the ‘doctrines of grace’ and not teach them. They are pretty consuming. It seems to me maybe they were not teaching them but they just leaked ….smile.
Still I treat my enemies better than these men were treated. And…many years of ministry have shown me that there are, if not two sides, at least two perspectives. I wonder what the firing squad perceived was happening.
Michael,
You would fire me? For what? My natural wit and charm or my intimidating massive intellect or just my humility. Actually, I am pretty sure that we are both discerning enough to not hire each other.
But any man who can ‘choose’ er uh I mean love a very good woman deserves at least some consideration. I forgot you cannot choose. Since I do not know the strokes…wink.
Blessings on the moderate moderators…
Long ago and far away, I was attending a Reformed Church, I enjoyed their fellowship, and after some time, I applied for membership. I had to attend classes with the pastor, 2 hours twice a week for 8 weeks. My wife and I were the only ones in the class. Upon completion, we had one more meeting, at which time we had an honest talk about the questions I asked and some if the issues I didn’t totally agree with. He informed me that my questions on eschatology and on the Holy Spirit demonstrated that I was not convinced about their teachings on those subjects, at the time I really didn’t have any well developed views, just questions. So he told me that while he would accept my application for membership in the church, he did not think that I should become a member. He informed that any future ministry opportunities I might have in their church would be limited unless I came to agree with their views. He said that if I was allowed to teach, say a Sunday school class, and contradicted what he taught it would only divide people and cause confusion. To be honest, I thought he was right, he went on and encouraged me to start a Bible study at home, and asked me not invite any of the members of his church. I took his advice, and to this day I count him my brother in Christ. He never broke fellowship with me. I count him my brother to this day, He has done a great job for all these years. I think I might look him up soon, of course like me he will be an old man by now. He pastors one of the biggest churches in our area, and I always rejoiced at the fruit of his labor, that the years of giving himself has really counted for the Glory of God..he is a good pastor..
So if CC sets a boundary, and someone comes in by stealth and tries to move that boundary, and they tell them to leave, I think they are right to do so. If they kick someone out who is not trying to sway the fellowship, and is not the cause of confusion they are wrong… So I guess the fact that I was told that if I don’t like what the reformed church taught I should leave, is viewed as a faithful pastor guarding his flock, but when CC does the same thing it is called “breaking fellowship”
You see, I had to be there a couple of times when I had to take hold of someone and walk them off the property. These guys got together and decided it was time to stand up for the truth. So they figured out that people with packets were new believers and approached them and told them that CC only taught the milk, they would take them where they could get the MEAT of the Word of reformed theology. Every church sets doctrinal boundaries around their flock, unless it be heresy we need to respect their boundaries.
De 27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour’s landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Do you think they were wrong to tell me to go elsewhere?
dmw,
The issue with Sam and me is not that we were kicked out (I mentioned in a reply in my thread that CC was correct in doing so).
The issue is that in most churches (like the one you mentioned) there is a confession which clearly spells out the church’s beliefs. In CC, though, there was no definitive set of “essentials” (CC Distinctives had not been written).
So in a “loose” situation like Calvary, ironically, it becomes incredibly strict. WHATEVER the senior pastor says could potentially be essential to agree with, and ANY disagreement could potentially spell your doom.
As the saying goes, when you have no essentials, everything becomes essential by default.
JJS
I taught at the local CC high school since it began. At about year two I converted to Orthodoxy. I immediatley volunteered to quit teaching the Bible classes I was teaching. There was a lot of discussion about what to do with me. Frankly, I thought they had every right in the world to fire me because they have a right to have teachers who are in agreement with them. It was decided that I could stay if I didn’t preach Eastern Orthodoxy and I continued teaching the Bible class, only the principal decided to co-teach it with me. I thought this was very gracious of them.
I took the new member’s class at a Friend’s Church years ago. When it came to their baptism and communion views I had serious disagreements with their positions. I expressed them to the teacher who told me that I could have my own views but still join. I could not join because I could not do so in good conscience.
Calvary Chapel’s tent keeps shrinking as it becomes more sectarian. That’s their choice.
WOOOOW
Lazo
well I wanted to post, but I want…
I wrote and tehn I deleted it…
I meant but I will not…
It would be an interesting study to look at the FourSquare denomination and compare it to the Calvary Chapel denomination. Is the FourSquare more or less open today to other ideas than CC is?
I sent my short narrative to Axed at his request. Deadmanwalking talked about someone coming in by stealth, I stated that everyone in my life at the time when I left for the mission field knew of my theological bent. There was nothing being done “under the radar” I was pretty much an open book. When I was asked about why I was leaving I told them it was over theological differences. Grown ups like a better response than that and they would ask what differences. I made a point of presenting the arguments from both sides fairly but I obviously held one over the other. Prior to my being asked to leave I had not said anything that had not been done or said from many CC pulpits all over the U.S. I don’t need to go on about this, I think JJS spoke to this effectively.
My intention is not to cast anyone in a bad light. I simply retold the story and some find that offensive or in bad taste. Many might say get over it but this is not about my but about what happens when there is one man as a standard and everyone is beholden to him. (kind of like the Godfather…just kidding) For those of you who are upset by what is said here take a moment to see if maybe something was done wrong not only in Hungary but in your church and those represented on this blog. I am not a “disgruntled former employee”. Thanks for the forum and allowing me to share.
In the PCA I know that ministers can take “exceptions” to the Westminster Confession during the ordination process. Lay people have to have a credible profession of faith as for the confession of faith they could be dispensational tongue-speaking, Tim LaHaye reading, temple rebuilding, praise song singing folks who have major issues with the Westminster Confession and still be members in good standing as long as they are also God-fearing Jesus following Christians!
100th,
You can post it anywhere you like just don’t put any photos of strange men and pass them off as me.
– I am sorry if I seemed to imply you came in by stealth, it was not my intention. what I said was meant to be a statement on the general idea of boundaries and how some refuse to respect them. The problems with CC, is the fact that they move their boundaries for some and not for others. Some in the CC movement really are more balanced and allow you time to think and grow, while others really slam anyone who questions anything. In the reformed church I tried to join, I knew where they stood in 8 weeks. . You can go to CC for 20 years and not know for sure where the boundary until you cross it, then it is too late.
Deadmanwalking,
Thanks for the clarification. I knew once these events transpired that I would not put myself in a place where there were such fundamental differences between myself and the powers that be. I love New Yorkers for that reason, you never have to guess what they think of you because they will let you know even if you don’t ask!
hi hus…
Thanks, Sam. Your story is now at:
http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/CC-anti-Calvinists-2
Sam,
Thank you for sharing your story! God bless you!
Jacob Lee,
Looking forward to hearing your story…
Well, Sam:
I must say, i have wondered how freedom and whatnot play out in Calvary missions… now i know, and i am glad that althought i was offered to go, the Lord stayed my hand… and now i am still in missions with the most amazing church i have ever seen.
I will say this… WHY??? why why why why why? All i can think of is paul: i am determined to know nothing among you save christ and him crucified….. that’s it… end story… we seek with our myriad creeds to contain within a box a God that Heaven cannot. I believe in proper theology and whatnot. etc. ec. However, He is far larger than any creed or confession, as i believe you stated… we must use the creeds as a tool not a weapon… the confession is no the end.. christ is the end… the words merely help us attempt to grasp the very nature of god and his dealings… and that only what he has chosen to limitedly reveal… we must never make our faith about what we believe, but rather who we believe….
i thank God for my church… they did not send me in their name, but in the name of Jesus. Therefore as long as i continue in his name i am a good “employee”… the liberty is freeing and frightening… it keeps me in check at the feet of christ… right where my pastors would have me be… and if i remain there… then theirs is simply to trut God…
JJS… ok dude… i went to Hungary in 1995… and you were there… you hated me, I annoyed you… but you helped change me… even then you were different.. and i thank you… thank you from a little fat 15 from your past…
Mahlish,
You’re kidding me! Refresh my memory, where did we meet? What’s your first name?
Tripping,
JJS
Joel…
We met originally at Calvary Costa Mesa… way back when… i believe you were a high school counselor there and were beloved by my brother Aaron. I met you in hungary in 1995 when Rob Verdyn took a trip of 17 people there… i was one of 5 who also went to serbvia that year. O course you were still the visage of a surfer when i met you, what with your long hair and all…
Why did you say I hated you?
well, hate may be strong word… but it is nearing 3am here so i make that my excuse…
but seriously… i was 15… i was annoying… and you were not amused… oddly enough that is waht drew me to you… tha a man must not need be fake in his love of others… it’s ok to show displeasure… and not have a plastic smile… if we love we must do so sincerely…
oh yeah… that was also the year we took the kry with us… wich brings me to a really stupid question: i have heard that the song “jason” by the kry is about you… and other things concerning a disco and the hospital… am i wzy off base here?
Ha ha, yes, “Jason” is about me. It’s along story involving me, Yves, Jean Luc, a guitar, and a really long train ride from Subotica to Budapest.
A disco and the hospital, hmmm…. If you mean a sports bar, the Albanian mafia, and the hospital, well that certainly rings a bell.
BTW, I’m glad my lack of amusement played a key role in your development! I can be a jerk sometimes….
JJS
Jason,
Say it aint so, you and the kry. I had allot of respect for you…
Axed
Tell me about it. And I haven’t seen a nickel in royalties….
Well,
I am in shock you and some french cans, well it just goes to show you God can change anybody. He can even use you after the kry.
Axed
well, that reminds me of a very long plane ride with Yves and Jean luc… and a five pound bag of gummi bears… of course that song will never be sung… and Jean luc won’t touch those sugary things anymore to this day….
So, i am assuming at this point… you still haven’y the foggiest who i am? i mean, team afer team after team came…
ah Subo… i have good memories of that place… and yes long ride… oh yeah… it was around the time, a guy named mike was getting married in subo… i know armondo was there… he helped us get in serbia with no visas… sports bar, that’s right… that was the story… i din’t know the albanian mafia part though…
Hey,
If we’re the same person, how can we be having this conversation?
Well Jason we are bipolar
We can talk with ourself.
Axed
M,
You’re right, we hosted lots of teams, so you’ll have to post a photo from back then to help me out.
The funny thing about the “incident” at the sports bar (where we pretty much got jumped by 15 Albanian mafia guys) is that I got a call from Brodersen the next week, and Chuck was there, and Chuck said he’d heard we were beaten up for preaching the Gospel. If only it were true….
JJS
Axed,
Yes, “we” are bipolar indeed (I was just going to say that, how wierd).
AJXJESD
CC folks beware the AjxJesd lurks in strange places and in bars with french cans.
Axed
can pictures be posted here?
JJS,
I am reading this at work and fell out of my chair laughing. I have not thought about that bar story in a long time. Didn’t you have a boot print on your face? Persecuted for the gospels sake, you are truly a martyr!
Michael,
I have had enough of the stories of Calvary Chapel South Bay. Story after story of people getting used as abused by Steve Mays, the senior “pastor.” I am getting ready to write a series of articles at biblicalthought.com exposing the fleecing that continues to take place. Seeking some advice from you. I found you when I typed in Calvary Chapel Horror Stories! Merry Christmas!