PFM Pastor Wants Another Gig…

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44 Responses

  1. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Please inform me if I am wrong, but I thought that Selah was under the corporate cover of PFM and the property was an asset of PFM…

  2. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Last time I checked it was.
    There seems to be something in the original property donation that said it had to remain a church in perpituity.
    I’m not sure about all of that, but I’m sure this guy shouldn’t be a pastor…

  3. Bob Sweat says:

    Same oh, same oh. Reload, and begin again. Different name, nothing changed!

  4. Michael says:

    Bob,

    Yep.
    How many times have we seen this?

  5. Em says:

    Well expressed truths, Michael
    The Church will stand, but these are perilous times in which we we operate
    Thank you for standing… Grace and compromise are not synonymous

  6. Michael says:

    Em,

    Thank you…I’m a tad bit riled…

  7. Steph says:

    How does CC operate? How can this man just start a church? Is there any process that a new CC has to go through in order to be legit? Regardless of the name, or whether it’s an official CC or not, shouldn’t someone step in here and suggest that this probably isn’t the best idea?

    Really, how far will CC go? Is anyone actually in charge or is it every man/church for himself? I’m baffled as to how this is allowed to go on.

  8. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Thanks. I think what is forgotten in this story is the reality to which you alluded. A lot of these people were teenagers. It’s a grown man leading this “ministry” asking teenage girls about their “sexual history”, or if they masturbate, or yelling at them for hours (sometimes until the early hours of the morning). If we saw a father treating his 18 year old daughter like this, we would be deeply troubled and probably intervene.

    Anyone who was aware of this behavior is culpable…

  9. Michael says:

    Steph,

    I need to write a full article on how Calvary Chapel actually operates.
    For now, let it be understood that the only authority the main board has is to either put someone in or remove them from a database of CC churches.
    That’s it.

  10. Michael says:

    Duane,

    Exactly.
    If someone got in my godson’s face and started screaming…someone would be eating through a straw for six months…if someone wanted to speak perversely to a teenage girl as if it were spiritual formation…God help us both…

  11. Michael says:

    I do need to note that all these PFM churches are no longer affiliated with the CCA.

  12. JM says:

    Maybe Miller went to the seminar on “How to get away with never repenting and still find idiots who will give you another church”, hosted by Bob Coy and sundry other rats? Like “Pastor Pirates of the Caribbean”, they be saying (one rat to another) that the Scriptures be more like”guidelines” anyway. Why take it seriously? It only gets in the way of what what the poor rat pastor wants to do. We should be kinder and more understanding of them.

    Just because there are bodies strewn everywhere from the evil of which they were a part, it’s not what it looks like. We aren’t seeing what we are seeing. Believe the rat pastor–not your eyes. Move along. Nothing to see here. Go repent to God for ever questioning “God’s anointed” or wanting justice for the broken and abused. Then, don’t forget to give all your money to them so they can continue to support themselves in the manner to which they have become accustomed. To allow them to live in want like the rest of the non-anointed, designated peons that they abused and cast off would be mean.

    If you’re reaching for your barf bag–that would be the right reaction. 🙂

  13. Steph says:

    So the PFM churches are no longer affiliated w CC……but McCoy is?

  14. Michael says:

    McCoy is part of the CCA.

  15. Steph says:

    AKA Mayor McCoy, you couldn’t make this stuff up!

    Oh Calvary, please stop! You had no idea of the abusive behavior, yet you were involved for many years? But you are involved in the assets? WHO IS BELIEVING THIS STUFF?
    Or, more plausible, does the average CC goer even know this is going on?
    Someone, somewhere, needs to do an exposé on the entire CC organization and the corruption that is only getting worse.

  16. Michael says:

    I’ve got to get this clear.
    It does no one any good raging against CC as if it were a unified whole with central authority.
    It’s not.
    It’s a loosely affiliated bunch of independent operators who are only accountable to those who they choose to be accountable to.
    This is true of both sides of the split.

  17. JM says:

    You are right Michael. However, there is confusion because McClure is the head over the CCA side of the split, there are regional pastors under him and then there are pastors under the regionals. It has all the appearance of a unified group. The fact that McClure said he would put the hammer down on any CC under him that still dealt with PFM is also a source of confusion. His power may be self-appointed, but the appearance is, nevertheless, confusing.

  18. Michael says:

    JM,

    I know.
    It looks like a coherent organization.
    It’s not.
    All those lower level guys only can do one thing…put names in our out.
    The power In CC is in relationships…

  19. Robert Knox from Whitefish says:

    This is not the sign of dismantling an organization. This is just reorganizing a money stream.

  20. JM says:

    I now have another question, Michael.

    Because of the McClure statement to those in CCA about PFM, does McClure have the power to disaffiliate a pastor for defying his “order”? If so, and the church wanted to remain part of the CCA , could they, the church, throw that pastor out and request another CC pastor to occupy the pulpit so as to keep affiliation?

    The way the CC Association approaches things makes it all very muddy. I assume a lot of the set up was not formulated with the sheep in mind. It was simply to reduce liability.

  21. Michael says:

    In CC, the pastors are affiliated, not the church.
    McClure could potentially disaffiliate a pastor, but the pastor probably wouldn’t care.
    All it means is that the church is no longer searchable in the CCA database.
    Big deal…

  22. JM says:

    Thank you, Michael.

    I guess I’m trying (and have been trying) to figure out where the lines are drawn as to what power the CCA (or even CGN) head has, what power the individual pastor has and what power the congregant has. It appears that pastors, at whatever level, have power of some kind and the congregant has none. I assume, if a CC pastor was disaffiliated in a non-voluntary way, he would have no obligation to even tell his congregation of the change. Because of the way things are set up in CC, the pastor is not obligated to inform his congregation of anything affecting that church. If they have their own building, he could mortgage the church and its assets, use the money on what he wanted and never tell them. They would only find out if he suddenly left and they were forced to open the books.

    It would behoove people to ask a lot of questions at their church.

    (Work calling me. Will check back later. 🙂

  23. Duane Arnold says:

    It might be wise at this point to note the current protocols and evolving law with regard to institutional abuse cases (RCChurch and others). Other clergy, either directly involved or on staff, are legally responsible in terms of whether they knew abuse was taking place. If they had knowledge, they are culpable. Even as Mr. McCoy is sorting out the closure of the “ministry”, he is responsible in terms of what he learns about any abuse that took place, especially now that he is on the board. Only full transparency is exculpatory at this juncture.

  24. Michael says:

    JM,
    The only power a congregant has is to walk away.
    The boards of these churches have authority and there are laws regarding non profits that must be followed.
    Every pastor we’ve written up has recovered and is doing fine.
    That…is the responsibility of those who refused to walk.

  25. Michael says:

    Duane,
    It appears that in regard to abuse issue and labor law violations in Montana that there is only a 180 day statute of limitations.
    Attorneys have indicated that this would be a tough case for the plaintiffs according to my latest information.

  26. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    I wonder if that will apply to current serving staff? Dreadful, just dreadful…

  27. Michael says:

    Duane,
    We’ll see…

  28. wontbefooledtwice says:

    Calvary’s are notorious for hiding the truth from their fellowship. Staff/leadership is usually threatened with firing or losing position if anything is said. Everything is done to protect the image, even if sheep are hurt and injured, the image of the pastor and church is of upmost importance. McClure can weep and apologize all he wants, but in reality it’s now become only about, ” leaving the “benjamins” at the back table”

  29. JM says:

    Thank you, Michael.

    We walked almost 24 years ago. I agree.

  30. Michael says:

    Just for the sake of clarification Rozell wasn’t officially CC…he didn’t want to submit to anyone.

  31. Midwife says:

    So amen. No Miller. Never Miller. Go get a job Miller.

  32. Shelby says:

    Michael, correct me if I’m wrong as things may have changed, but doesn’t the pastor hold the ultimate authority in Calvary Chapel. Even enough to fire the board if need be? You are right in terms of the disaffiliation. All Either Calvary group can do is deny the church is any longer a CC. Although the church can keep the name of they choose. Let me guess MR, will stay on as an associate pastor?

    It’s all sad.

  33. Michael says:

    Shelby,
    In a non profit the board holds control.
    However, many pastors stack the boards…

  34. Doesn’t the Bible teach that if you cause one of God’s little ones to stumble, that it would be better that a milstone be tied around you and that you be dropped into a deep part of a sea?
    Why, oh why, would this PASTOR want to start a church called Reconciliation and he has not reconciled with these children? Amazing!!!

  35. WWG1WGA says:

    Pastor Philip : “Why, oh why, would this PASTOR want to start a church called Reconciliation and he has not reconciled with these children? Amazing!!!”

    Short answer… $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  36. Steve says:

    Congregants in CC are like pawns in the game of chess. They are easily sacraficed for the king but if they happen to survive and make it across alive they can self promote themselves to whatever they want to be.

  37. GW says:

    Mike… Did you talk to McCoy on Friday??? I thought I read that you were???

  38. Michael says:

    GW,

    I did.
    We’ll write it up tomorrow.

  39. Em says:

    Steve @ 6:36 👍 👍 sure looks that way..

  40. Jerod says:

    Smh

    Politics and pulpits
    It’s almost funny, except it isn’t.

  41. DavidM says:

    Some of you guys are making statements as if all CC churches are created equal. They are not. In our CC no pastor could get away with the sort of authority you describe. Without trying to count the safeguards we have in place (annual business meeting, financial audits to mame a couple), we are not at all in the typical CC vein. So, I ask you to be careful to not paint us all with the same brush.
    I also am disgusted with the PFM fiasco and the lack of accountability of CCA. It is ugly and grieving and sickening.

  42. JD says:

    So, Kool Aid comes in many flavors. I’m going to have to assume that I would not be welcomed or even accepted or comfortable at “your” CC, given my family’s track record.
    Just because you say so doesn’t matter much.

  43. Preston says:

    Steve Miller, your not a pastor, please refer to the Steve Miller song “Take the money and run’ and get out of the Flathead valley, better yet leave Montana.

  44. Chico says:

    Thank you! Real men do stand up to bullies..the owner of my company used to scream at the women here and I finally stood up and dared him to do that in front of me again. I screamed at him and told him that he could fire me if he wanted but that he would regret treating women like that because I knew where he lived..LOL he never did it again.

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