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28 Responses

  1. Em says:

    No. God is not a monster – amen to that. But I think the devil is. The time of tragedy is usually not the time for theology lectures. But… do we teach, prepare the Church for the way of an evil world today?
    Yes, a hug or just being there is the greatest support we can offer in tragedy. … and prayer, quiet, without fanfare prayer..

    Good link, worth a ponder. IMO, of course. 😇

  2. Em says:

    David now labeled a rapist? He may have been a seducer, but a rapist? Maybe i dont have a good definition of “rape,” but i think i do. ..
    Was Bathsheba a noble soul? A victim? She may have been. She lived in another social construct, different than today. Still, there are some things we just are not in a position to give definitive verdicts. IMO again.. 😏

  3. Michael says:

    Bathsheba had no choice…David sent men to get her. I think that article speaks loudly to a lot of issues we deal with here…

  4. Randy Davis says:

    I had not thought too much about David as a rapist until recently when I saw several discussions about it. By our standards it was rape. It reflects the status of women in the 10th BC. They were bartered and traded, given in marriage to seal a political deal, and abandoned when widowed.

    When the king commanded you to come to his bedchamber, you went. It was David’s sins that reminds us that God saves sinners. It also reminds us that the great and the good as well as the scoundrel are all great sinners who need a great and merciful Savior.

  5. MM says:

    Sadly, and it’s not just my opinion, too many Christian traditions ignore the narratives preserved for our reading in the ancient texts. We forget one the vary reasons why the flood came was rape and violence against women.

    It is true we have our Savior and Christ who died and was risen from the dead for us. It is also wrong to hitch a ride on the idea different times of history allowed such things and are forgiven through Him (of course it is also an undeniable fact).

    We must not forget to teach the gritty tales of history to help us walk in the present. And that means spending time in the ancient text.

    This continues to be true:

    “If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience.”

    George Bernard Shaw

  6. Em says:

    Michael, Randy and MM… now i have a mental picture of Bathsheba… did she not say, “I am married?” Did David say, “I don’t care, baby – come here?” It just doesn’t seem in character… but it is true, that it was a different time and women in the Gentile world were close to being chattel… dunno One thing I do know is that we skip over the nobility of her husband. Was Uriah more noble than David? dunno… truly dunno

    I remember a Bible Study Fellowship conversation around the O.T. instruction to not reform a murderer – that there was a difference between forgiving and reforming…. doubt that applies to rape, however

    the “Is God a monster?” link is probably worth more of our thinking…

  7. Em says:

    not much going on here today… did the rapture occur and we didn’t ascend? no oil in our lamps? 🙂

  8. Michael says:

    The “Is God a Monster?” link is classic Steve Brown and why I will always love him for his gift.

    This is the only answer to all my questions…

    ” I know that the sovereign God who is the ruler, creator and sustainer of all that is—and it almost takes your breath away—has mingled his tears with ours and with those who have lost so much and suffered such great pain. In other words, God didn’t remain in heaven unmoved by the tragedy and pain of the world. He came and suffered as we must suffer. He wept at open graves as we must weep at open graves. He was lonely and afraid as we are lonely and afraid, and he died as we must die.
    God didn’t give us words, philosophies or propositions for our intellectual questions. He did a whole lot better than that. He came himself. We worship a sovereign God who, nevertheless, is a suffering God.”

  9. Michael says:

    Em,

    I’ve been sick all day and unable to start fights… 🙂

  10. Em says:

    I am sorry that today was a rough one, Michael – you stay in my prayers

  11. Jtk says:

    For clarification, in the “Leaving My Church” post, she is never told she won’t get her Christmas bonus, and she is upset there isn’t a female divinity in her church?

    Huh?

  12. I’m confused by the David controversy. I foes feel that Christians will accept murder, and adultery. Bathsheba has always been portrayed in the narratives I am familiar with, as an object of temptation.

    In American (and non-Evangelical) curlture, it would be likely be at least stutory rape in all fifty States. While her age is never mentioned, she is discribed in juvenile language, and my guess is mid-teens, or likely younger

    Based on the response of David’s servants, he had not seen her for sometime, and did not recognize her.

  13. Dan from Georgia says:

    MIcheal…your comments to the Phx Bookshelve page isn’t open

  14. Babylon's Dread says:

    I’m unapologetically teaching people that the Bible is patriarchal and the normal pattern of its patriarchy is inclusive. If they must have a politically correct Bible they should look elsewhere. God is Father, Jesus is Son and we are all sons of God included in the bride of Christ. The hierarchy of the Bible is protective and designed that all would be blessed under the shadow of his wings. Maleness is not toxic and male and female are normative everything else is a glitch in the software and there is grace to deal and heal. I’m done with being intimidated by a culture that considers itself superior to the historic revelation of scripture.

    I am done being afraid to pronounce the beauty majesty and glory of God’s revealed ways. I am done appeasing the wisdom of this age to gain a hearing. Pushing back because I am too old and too studied and too capable to be invalidated and incapacitated by the spirit of the age. My people receive well from one who loves them well. No retreat in the face of market forces.

    The Gospel is power so if we are powerless then that will be the deciding factor.

    Anyway hope all are well. Leaving social media has been the most salutary step I’ve taken in a long while. And this is the only blog I frequent, reading from others is accidental and occasional. There are too many great books podcasts and life-giving sources available to waste much time.

  15. Michael says:

    BD,

    Well said.
    We’re glad you’re still here…what else have you found that’s edifying that we should know about?

  16. Babylon's Dread says:

    Here is a podcast by Jonathan Haidt that is astonishing — An atheist professor who says the university can no longer hold to both social justice and the pursuit of truth. They have become incompatible values. He asserts that Christianity and Liberalism have in common the value that pursuingTRUTH is the reason for the university. It is a truly shocking lecture from a secular source.

    https://youtu.be/Gatn5ameRr8

  17. Owen says:

    ” I am too old and too studied and too capable to be invalidated and incapacitated by the spirit of the age”.

    Just wanted to say thanks for this, BD. The “wisdom” of this age, indeed…….

  18. filbertz says:

    to cast examination of patriarchy as politically correct or attempts to get a hearing is overly simplified and dismissive. I uphold your place to teach the Bible as you see fit, but honest scholarship and faithful believers do come to differing conclusions on this and other equally controversial issues without fanfare or to appease the masses.

  19. Just one of His lambs says:

    To Babylon’s Dread: “I’m unapologetically teaching people that the Bible is patriarchal and the normal pattern of its patriarchy is inclusive.” Could you please explain what you mean by patriarchal being inclusive”? I see Jesus as completely loving and inclusive, but the patriachal teaching going around these days looks nothing like how Jesus treated women. I have a feeling that you and I believe the same, but I would love for you to expand on your comments. You are highly respected here and we need to hear from you.

  20. Em says:

    Agreeing with all who see the truth and wise admonitions in BD’s 11:24
    The Patriarch y of the Bible is nothing like the distortions and abuses going around today.. including those of the Muslims
    It IS time to learn God’s revealed Truth and to stand – IMHO again. 😇

  21. Jean says:

    BD wrote:

    “The hierarchy of the Bible is protective and designed that all would be blessed under the shadow of his wings.”

    I very much agree with this statement. It is a lost theology that probably is nearly as much rejected within the church as within secular society. I imagine, because of its neglect, that even Christians who affirm hierarchy would differ substantially on how hierarchy is taught in the Bible.

  22. filbertz says:

    simply interesting to me that Luke echoes Psalm 91:4 which Dread alluded to, by stating ‘I would gather you to myself as a hen gathers her chicks.’ One of the finest sermons I ever heard by Jon Courson back in my ACF days was “The Motherhood of God.” I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere…Mother’s Day circa 1993

  23. Josh says:

    Ol’ Dreader hit a homerun on that drop-in. Like Kurt Gibson staggering out of the dugout in ’88.

  24. Duane Arnold says:

    The main problem with hierarchy, in my opinion, does not lie in the concept itself, but in the abuse of hierarchy as a means of exercising power. Even Jesus, whom we confess as “Lord” (an extreme hierarchical title) comes among us as “one who serves”. Embracing the idea of servant leadership is the only way to confront secular culture. My fear is that we embrace “hierarchy” but set aside the part about being a servant…

  25. filbertz says:

    Duane,
    Like a good ‘ol boys club?

  26. Michael says:

    BD’s comment must be informed by context…he does co-pastor with his wife and his group does ordain women…

  27. Josh says:

    BD don’t need no stinking caveat.

  28. EricL says:

    BD has more spine than the jellyfish in my photo, that’s for sure 🙂

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