Talking Impeachment: Kevin H

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222 Responses

  1. Xenia says:

    I still don’t understand, even though Steve gave an explanation a few weeks ago, why the GOP wouldn’t rather be rid of the senile / mentally unstable Trump and allow more presentable and stable Pence be president.

  2. Duane Arnold says:

    Xenia

    I’m from Indiana… I could give you numerous reasons… privately! 😁 Also, Kevin, this is a good and thoughtful piece…

  3. The other Kevin says:

    Very well-said, Kevin!

  4. Kevin H says:

    Xenia, because the reality is that Trump is the one with the greatest power and influence so that takes precedence over any instability or unfitness. I know there are some other types of concerns with Pence, too, but I still would much rather have him than Trump. But our sentiment is in the minority.

  5. Kevin H says:

    CK, you are the “Original”, not other. 🙂

  6. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, all, for the kind words so far.

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “…any instability or unfitness.”
    A lay judgment call and probably a breaking of the 8th commandment.

    So much for how a Christian should respond on these issues.

  8. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    A lay judgment call, it is. But based on much evidence and information, much of which has been supplied by people who have and/or still do work with/for/under Trump.

    And the charge of breaking the 8th commandment is just beguiling.

    So under your rationale, any time you, yourself, make a judgment call and say something negative about a liberal politician, even it if it’s based on solid reasoning and information, it would be breaking the 8th commandment, too.

  9. Kevin H says:

    This is exactly why I said we so often can’t have a discussion without pulling it into the mud.

  10. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Why is calling out you unsubstantiated “lay judgment” pulling things into the mud? You have no first hand knowledge in this area, and just as many would support Trumps stability.

    I have just as much “evidence” to call Joe Biden a latent pedophile based on the pictures of him handling little girls. But I don’t call him out as I have no first hand knowledge and in this case I do try to protect myself from breaking the 8th commandment.

    Your comment above at 9:50 would have been just as effective without the slur — but I guess you can’t see that.

  11. Michael says:

    There are many who would assess Trump as Kevin described.
    Books have been written about it.
    There are many who would disagree with whatever has been presented, as well.
    When it comes to judging these matters we are all lay people trying to make the best decisions possible.
    To me, this is a quagmire that there is no escape from…

  12. Kevin H says:

    Using reason and evidence to make a judgment is not a slur. But, I won’t go further in quibbling about it and dragging this discussion through the mud.

  13. Kevin H says:

    I would add that if the roles were reversed and we had a Democratic president up for impeachment, I have little doubt we would see very similar behavior, just with the Democrats playing the role of defender and Republicans being the accusers. The one difference is that we probably wouldn’t see nearly as large of a group of Christians participating in defense of morally and ethically troublesome actions and items due to political motivation as the Christian Left is not nearly as large and organized as the Christian Right.

  14. Kevin H says:

    Here is a stament written and signed by 74 theologians and ethicists during the Clinton impeachment. It would be refreshing to see something like it today. I copy point #6 from the statement:

    “While some of us think that a presidential resignation or impeachment would be appropriate and others envision less drastic consequences, we are all convinced that extended discussion about constitutional, ethical, and religious issues will be required to clarify the situation and to enable a wise decision to be made. We hope to provide an arena in which such discussion can occur in an atmosphere of scholarly integrity and civility without partisan bias.”

    https://thewayofimprovement.com/2019/12/18/what-did-theologians-and-ethicists-say-about-bill-clintons-impeachment-in-1998/

  15. Em says:

    I agree with the observation that Christians should put their time and energy into God’s kingdom, looming now and one day the only rule to which all men will answer….
    Not identifying with any political party, i’ve watched (retired and snowbound up here) the impeachment proceedings televised… My conclusion? This is a precedent setting hoax! You don’t have to be a Trump fan to separate glittering rhetoric from concrete facts… I won’t belabor that statement with backup details. It has all been said before.
    No one seems to be capable of detached observation of the proceedings. Emotion has become the governor of the nation.
    Or so it seems to me… sorry to disagree with the Phoenix peeps, but i do, so. ………. 🙆
    God keep

  16. Kevin H says:

    Em,

    I would agree with, “No one seems to be capable of detached observation of the proceedings. Emotion has become the governor of the nation”, at least for the most part. I also agree their are no concrete facts that definitively prove cause to impeach. But I also believe this impeachment is far from a hoax and would argue that coming to such a conclusion largely results from the two sentences of yours that I copied.

    This whole proceeding is dangerously partisan….. from both sides. We are setting a dangerous precedent for our country.

  17. bob1 says:

    I’ve been listening to the debate on NPR and trying to keep an open mind. However, the Republicans, with their waaaaaaaay over the top rhetoric, are failing miserably.

    One R compared Trump’s rights in this to those of Pontius Pilate and Jesus. Drink.

    Another one compared this date with December 7, 1941. Drink again.

    Pretty soon I’ll be too drunk to follow…

  18. Em says:

    Kevin H, okay, i respect the principle that we all have the right to weigh facts and reach our own conclusions…. you, too bob1

    No more to add from up here in the mountains where it is so cold that i tried to spray Windex on the car windows to clean them and it froze when it hit the glass… 😨

  19. Captain Kevin says:

    Em, you could write a piece called “Frozen Windex and Wolves.”

  20. Em says:

    Catchy title, Captain. 🙆
    Our usual herd of 30+ deer is down to three and no one has seen or heard a wolf for about four days now, so maybe they, the wolf pack, has moved on. We have an outfitter just down the road with a large herd of donkeys and pack horses and our two horses have us all hoping that they’re gone… no one can be certain, though
    Frozen Windex and Wolves – sub title = Gone Condo Shopping
    BTW i raised the hood, found a tube labeled washer fluid and poured in half a bottle of the stuff with anti- freeze…. Hope i put it in the right receptacle. 🙉

  21. MM says:

    Thank you Kevin for writing this.

    It sure is interesting how each generation has to come up with some sort of crisis to make the news.

    While I highly dislike Trump I find these proceedings the very reason I would and will not vote for a Democratic Presidential candidate.

    There’s a scene in a WWII movie called the ‘Big Red One,’ starring Mark Hamill of Star Wars fame and Lee Marvin, where a battle takes place in a insane asylum. During the battle an inmate of the asylum watches and picks up a machine gun of a soldier who was killed and joins in the fight.

    As this inmate engages in the battle, shooting the gun, he proclaims, “Now I’m sane like all of you!”

    I feel like this whole Presidency, including the Democrats of the Congress, is just like that scene. Of course there’s one exception, there aren’t any Jedi Knights (Mark Hamill) and Lee Marvin won’t be there to do the right thing.

  22. Michael says:

    I haven’t watched any of the proceedings or read anything about this at all today.
    I stopped believing that Trump was the problem…he just revealed the soul of this country.
    He may also have exposed our civil religion for what it is.
    I’m only educated on one issue and in regard to that one issue this country has displayed such a cruel and sick spirit that I just don’t care anymore.
    They (politicians) are all the same and have the same father…I’m done now…

  23. Kevin H says:

    MM,

    Yup, Trump and Pelosi and all are the sanes ones. Along with all their rabid followers. God help us all.

  24. Michael says:

    My phone says that Trump has been impeached by the House.

  25. Kevin H says:

    Michael,

    Yes, Trump is just a symptom, quite a severe one, but a symptom nonetheless of the sickness in this country. That is why I try with whatever little influence I have to try to point people towards the remedy for that sickness. It may do no good, but I won’t forsake what I believe God has urged me to do.

  26. Michael says:

    Kevin H,

    I appreciate your voice greatly.
    I’m trying to figure out exactly what it means to live and rear children as aliens in a strange land…because this is what America has become to me.
    Whatever we were…we are no more.

  27. Michael says:

    Guess I’m gonna split hell wide open…

    “The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them. Psalm 37:12”

    “THIS POST IS FOR THOSE WHO ARE ABLE TO SEE BEYOND THE FLESH AND INTO THE DARK POWERS THAT ARE AT WORK BEHIND THE SCENES – that said…

    “I agree with this op-ed by my brother Tony Perkins. This attack by the rabid democrats really isn’t about Trump. It’s about “the righteous” policies and godly judges and good works that President Trump and his Administration have enacted. This is a war of intense powers and sadly, little-minded people can only see and hear what’s on the surface.”
    Jack Hibbs

    “Unable to honor the election results of 2016 and incapable of coping with the historic successes of this Administration, the godless democrats have finally done it. After three years of threats, investigations, and fake scandals, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (Democrat California.) has finally launched an “official” effort to IMPEACH and REMOVE President Donald J. Trump from office.

    The Democrat-controlled House Judiciary Committee approved two articles of impeachment last week, and the full House is expected to vote today to impeach President Trump.

    But President Trump is not the real target — you and I and the policy gains we’ve made are. Your values and mine keep advancing in Washington, D.C. as never before with President Trump’s pro-life, pro-family, pro-religious liberty agenda.

    So, Adam Schiff (Democrat California) and his liberals in Congress are moving swiftly to destroy Trump before he can do any more “damage” to their radical plans for America.

    If Democrats succeed, they will roll back the progress you and I have made over the last three years for faith, family, and freedom, and force their radical anti-family agenda back on our nation!

    We cannot allow this POLITICAL SIDESHOW to go unanswered.

    Liberals are ENRAGED by President Trump’s tireless efforts to defund Planned Parenthood. The Trump administration’s “Protect Life Rule” stops Title X taxpayer dollars from going to family-planning facilities that perform or refer for abortions. Rather than comply with the rule, Planned Parenthood backed out of the family planning program altogether.

    That decision cost Planned Parenthood $16,120,000 in direct Title X grants, in addition to the millions more they receive as subgrantees of Title X funds. Praise God this money is no longer funding abortion providers!

    They are INCENSED by his defense of religious liberty, which he protected nationwide by issuing a historic presidential Executive Order Promoting Free Speech and Religious Liberty in 2017.

    They are FURIOUS he has appointed DOZENS of originalist federal judges who will defend our constitutional freedoms for years — even decades — to come. In fact, President Trump has appointed one out of every FOUR federal appellate judges now serving our nation!

    And perhaps most of all, they are OUTRAGED at his steadfast support of LIFE!

    At a recent gathering of FRC Action partners, former House Freedom Caucus Chairman, Rep. Mark Meadows (R-N.C.), stated that Donald Trump is “the most pro-life president in the history of America.”

    These are the REAL REASONS Rep. Adam Schiff (Democrat California) and his committee are conducting this phony impeachment process.

    That’s why the Family Research Council Action is launching a nationwide effort to rally the pro-family grassroots to defend this president and his pro-family agenda.

    We will not be silent witnesses to this direct attack on our lawfully elected president, on the Constitution, and on the Left’s real target: the agenda advancing YOUR values!

    Thank you, and God bless you.”

    Standing (Eph. 6:13),

    Tony Perkins
    President

  28. Em says:

    There are a lot of reasonable people who do see an international deep state at work here… Christians surely do need to focus on the eternal kingdom and all that entails… makes most of the world’s evil seem secondary, if even that . ..

    I used to think the description of merchant ships standing off and mourning the loss of a nation couldn’t be this large continent, but now? Now i see how it could be done…. Hope not

  29. filbertz says:

    perhaps it’s time for Christians to honestly confront our desire to convert the nation through political enterprise rather than spiritual renewal, both personal and corporate. We’ve bought into the personalities, policies, and processes of DC and other capitals and lent our time, money, passion, and credibility with little or no discernable return. They are all corrupt. They are all bankrupt morally and personally. None deserves our support or endorsement. We would all be better served by tending our families, friends, neighbors, fellow believers, and co-workers, serving the needy among us, and personally making our communities better places to live. Our savior doesn’t face impeachment proceedings nor does he need our support and dollars to be reelected.

  30. Michael says:

    fil…applauding from a few miles away…

  31. Kevin H says:

    Yes, fil, yes.

  32. Steve says:

    Xenia,. I wasn’t going to respond or comment at all on this topic but your first comment referenced me. I really can’t speak for the GOP. I was speaking for myself as a Christian. Regarding Pence, I don’t think he would ever turn on Trump and I believe his loyalty to him is extremely strong. Infact, this is why some previous Pence advocates no longer like Pence. My opinion hasn’t change. I find both Trump and Pence refreshing when compared to the DC establishment. Of course there are some things I don’t like but overall I think Trump is doing a fine job. I’m concerned that the impeachment was unjustified since there is no crime he is being accused of and the vote was purely partisan. I like Kevin’s well balanced article however I’m not sure there is a middle ground here that it seems to be what Kevin was alluding to. I agree we do need to be more charitable in our politics.

  33. Mm says:

    Fil,

    “ perhaps it’s time for Christians to honestly confront our desire to convert the nation through political enterprise rather than spiritual renewal, both personal and corporate. ”

    I disagree with the premise of your statement.

    Christians, in general, want to take their values and apply them to the world they live in and amongst. It is not about evangelizing it’s about attempting, and rightly so, to live out their lives in a manner loving, pleasing and in faith to their God. It is called being a light in a world of darkness.

  34. Kevin H says:

    Steve,

    Thanks for chiming in. I do believe there is a middle ground. Let me clairfy a little more what I think that is. What I don’t believe the middle ground to be is half-agreeing with the Republicans and half-agreeing with the Democrats. But what I do believe it is to be a ground where people can equitably evaluate and support every issue and item and circumstance on its own merits rather than by how it lines-up with a favored politician or political party. Where there is not a need to automatically and partisanly support something in efforts to advance “your side” and tear down the “other side”. Where people earnestly try to understand those with whom they disagree and seek to treat them charitably, even in disagreement. And where people would not see those with whom they disagree as the enemy that needs to be defeated, but rather one that needs to be worked with in order to achieve the greatest possible good for everyone involved. For Christians, this would also involve looking at every issue first through a lens considering the kingdom of God and the virtues He calls us to before any other lens of earthly kingdoms.

    I would not say there is not a middle ground, but there is not much of one right now. There can be, but people need to start thinking deeper and more compassionately and give up their inclination to win political battles and tear down the “enemy”. It’s not an easy position to be in because those who seek the middle then often get attacked from both sides, rather than just one. But I maintain it is the only way this country is going to get healthier and it is the only way that Christians should seek.

  35. Kevin H says:

    MM,

    I understand where you are coming from in your response to fil. FIl can clarify if he wants, but this is how I take his statement. He is not meaning so much that Christians are out to convert others in the country to Christianity through a political process. But rather it is a means to convert (force) people to following Christian standards through the political process.

    I totally agree with your statement that Christians should take their values and apply them to the world they are living in. And that we should live in a loving manner as a light to the world. And I think part of that can be trying to influence our government and the laws of our land to be just and righteous and compassionate. But I think by far the most effective way of doing that is reaching people on a personal level to come to Christ and/or to see the value and importance of following Godly virtues. In the end, this would be the most effective way to “convert the nation” as opposed to one that leans much more on force and coercion and political battle and putting one’s hope in an ungodly strongman such as Donald Trump.

  36. MM says:

    Kevin

    “ But rather it is a means to convert (force) people to following Christian standards through the political process.”

    The idea of “forcing” someone into some value is a very modern paradigm in our culture. To have homosexuality “forced” on our nation as an appropriate sexual standard or even to be considered a good value for our community is no different than what your sentence implies.

    Controlling behaviors which bring problems and hurt to community through regulation is a part of the God given processes of life. For instance our community has determined smoking is unhealthy so our representatives have enacted regulations to deter, penalize and therefore discourage such behavior. Ironically this same community has begun to decide smoking marijuana, which has possibly equal negative health and social effects, is an acceptable behavior.

    So is it wrong for people who love God to seek positions of influence and change to bring their values to the world around them? No and to say otherwise demonstrates a clouded and distorted view of the world. Those in political power who are not lovers of God have no problem bringing their images of change and values to the stage and “force” people into them.

    The only major mistake people of faith often make is going beyond legislating values for the good of all and proclaim those who disagree will burn in hell.

    People of faith need to see their values as a benefit and value to people lives in the present and not some eternal judgement for failure.

    Basically caring about the welfare of people from a Christian point of view is a good thing for all.

  37. Duane Arnold says:

    There is indeed common ground, but it is based on an expectation of good will on both sides and, importantly fair dealing and compromise. The American Republic is built on the understanding of compromise as being basic to governance. “Winning at any cost” is antithetical to compromise. Christians seeking absolutes through the political process must, as Kevin points out, depend upon force and coercion. In my view, this is simply wrong. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world, otherwise his followers would have fought. The militant and muscular Christianity of those who wish to use the power of the state as a tool, is not found in the Gospels. Such an unholy alliance, in my opinion, compromises both Church and State equally…

  38. Kevin H says:

    MM,

    Let me attempt to better clarify what I mean by “force”. I don’t think it’s wrong for Christians to seek positions of influence and change to bring their values to the world around them. In fact, I think this can be a good thing, as long it is gone about it in an honorable and ethical fashion. For those who aren’t seeking position, I also think it is right and good if they seek to influence their governmental leaders to follow and implement Godly values, again as long as it is done in an honorable and ethical fashion.

    The difficulty I have is that too many seek to instill these values in a manner that is forceful in corrupt and unethical fashion. Much of the support that Trump receives is prime exhibit #1. It is not wrong to support his initiatives to do things that may restrict abortion or promote religious liberty. But it is wrong to blindly support him in the many of his other anti-Christ ways (such as his rampant bullying, which is very much a form of “force”) in order to try to achieve gains on a couple pet values. And just like the LGBT lobby uses fear and intimidation in order to “force” submission to their agenda, much political action from the Religious Right can be similar in nature. This is what I mean by “forcing” people by political means.

  39. Jean says:

    “Basically caring about the welfare of people from a Christian point of view is a good thing for all.”

    This is totally biblical. However, the problem comes in when what a Christian really cares about is his/her own point of view, but dresses it up as caring about the welfare of people.

    Christians don’t agree, with respect to many public policies, what constitutes caring about the welfare of people. This is partly due to differing philosophies of public policy, but equally due to our own selfish motives.

    When Christians promote a public policy as a “Christian” point of view, when in reality it hurts people, they undermine the proclamation of the Gospel.

  40. MM says:

    Jean:

    “This is totally biblical. However, the problem comes in when what a Christian really cares about is his/her own point of view, but dresses it up as caring about the welfare of people.”

    True, but nothing new with humanity and how we do things in life. It doesn’t matter what side of the fence we are on with any subject it is true. Wisdom would also tells us to be careful and recognize this trait in us as we lead and teach others.

    “…due to our own selfish motives.”

    “… they undermine the proclamation of the Gospel.”

    All true.

    Kevin says:

    “The difficulty I have is that too many seek to instill these values in a manner that is forceful in corrupt and unethical fashion.”

    Also true.

    But, at some point leaders have to take positions and seek what is best for the people in their community. As a follower of Jesus and lover of God, to state or imply in any fashion that some how Judea-Christian values are not worthy of promoting and extending to all of humanity is, in my opinion, a failure. Yes all of us have distorted and differing views of a larger number of things and we will fail in our attempts, but to cower and feel guilty about taking those values to the population at large is right.

    PP is a very good example a a single man passionately doing something to extend his understanding of God’s teachings beyond the borders of his personal bubble. May all see Michael as an example of one who loves God.

    Rant over. Thank you for your patience.

  41. MM says:

    OOPS

    “but to cower and feel guilty about taking those values to the population at large is right.”

    “but to cower and feel guilty about taking those values to the population at large is not right.”

  42. MM says:

    Kevin

    Please don’t take my rant as a support of our President in all his perverse way. Quite the contrary, my rant is against those who would take away and demonize the values which our country, the USA, was founded on.

    Those very same people, in my opinion are using the laws of impeachment in a way to achieve their goals. Ones that were quite clearly stated from the beginning of Trump’s Presidency.

    It is their collective obsession with this impeachment and derailing of the Presidency I find reprehensible and hypocritical.

    Thank you for the conversation. I find it stimulating and helpful in expanding my views.

  43. Kevin H says:

    MM,

    I get what you’re saying and have a lot of agreement. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

  44. Duane Arnold says:

    MM

    Whenever I hear “the values which our country, the USA, was founded on”, I’m interested to hear your opinion on what precisely those values were…

  45. MM says:

    Whenever I hear “the values which our country, the USA, was founded on”, I’m interested to hear your opinion on what precisely those values were…

    Very good question and I would ask the very same thing.

    I think are described in the Declaration of Independence:

    “”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,…

    To me it’s about empowering people to be able to accomplish, pursue and seek something for their lives in an environment which allows such. The only caveat is the pursuit of the individual must not hurt or nor bring tyranny on the others in our community.

    The difficulty is always preventing or avoiding the establishment of an elite class of individuals who determine what is right or wrong for all. And normally they do so to their personal benefit at the general cost to others. While sounding simple it is a very difficult task to accomplish.

    I also believe basically these values and their application have done a good job in the USA since its establishment. Even the impeachment proceedings demonstrate the Nation’s value to prevent the rise of a single man to a position of tyranny.

    Doe it mean Christian, Jewish or some other belief system are the values which we were founded on? I don’t think so. The value is we protect the rights of others in the context of living together as a community.

    Yes it is a difficult question to really define simply. But, traveling around the world I can affirm we have something special and unique in the USA. It is worthy of being passionate for and to protect.

  46. Duane Arnold says:

    MM

    Having lived overseas a good bit, I must agree with you that we have something special and unique.

    I ask the question owing to the false narrative that turns the founding fathers and mothers into 18th century evangelicals! Most were deists of one stripe or another, but that is for another post!😁

    I think the Declaration is a good place to start. Secondly, I would place the concept that ours is a government of laws, not of men. Everything I read or know about the early Republic convinces me that the central concern of the founding fathers was that no one individual would exercise unchecked authority. Unfortunately, we are now in the “age of celebrity” and have been probably since President Carter.

    An acquaintance of mine here in Indiana was the late Sen. Richard Lugar. He was a man of remarkable integrity and faith. It always impressed me that he never wore his faith on his sleeve to gain political advantage. He saw his role as that of simply a lawmaker, bound by the constitution and his conscience. Although we were on different sides of the political fence on a number of issues, discussions were always respectful and gracious. Unfortunately, things have changed…

  47. bob1 says:

    I remember Sen. Lugar, Duane. And I remember, as you write, that he was a person of great integrity.

    Another great man from that era closer to home for me, was Sen. Paul Simon from Illinois. Also a man of great integrity. I think he also founded Bread for the World, if memory serves.

    Lugar was Republican, Simon was a Democrat. Back when people put country ahead of party!

  48. MM says:

    Duane

    Thank you, well said.

  49. filbertz says:

    MM–what I mean is that Trump, the GOP, conservatives–whatever our equivalent reference point is politically–can do nothing to further the cause of Christ in our culture, nation, or world. Period. It is not their job, goal, or accidental outcome. They are not equipped to do so. They are by nature power-mongers who have an entirely different set of values and goals. To spend time, money, energy, passion wrapped up in propping up Trump or any politician is squandering valuable resources that, through the Spirit’s empowerment and leading, can make a huge difference in lives close at hand.

  50. MM says:

    Fil

    Agreed!

    I have no expectations this President or any others will follow some sort of “Christian” rule set. However, we all the right to choose our representatives whom most fit our understanding of the faith. What a privilege and responsibility we have.

    Thank you for the clarification.

    BTW I have found many forget we are not a Democracy, we are a Representative form of government. In general the people who represent the Nation also are a mirror of our values. Sad isn’t it.

  51. Duane Arnold says:

    Christianity Today has just called in an editorial for Trump to be removed from office…

  52. bob1 says:

    Nothing like taking a risk, right?

    CT seems to be very risk aversive in the last few years.

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So it seems that in the world of christian business opinions vary just as in any other “christian’ endeavor.
    Two businesses, two opinions about Trump and impeachment. So we are left to “make your own choice.”
    I have no idea who Tony Perkins or the FRC is / are. I do know Mark Galli as I ran into a couple of his books about 15 years ago. I had no idea he was now the editor at CT.

    Both make the error of suggesting they know of and / or can speak under the unrevealed will of God as if it had been revealed in the realm of politics.

    But hey, it will sell magazines and increase tax exempt contributions.

  54. Michael says:

    CT just committed editorial suicide. My guess is that they lose a third of their subscriber base and they will be struggling to survive in a year. This will get very ugly, very quickly.

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mark Galli is retiring next week. This was probably his way of going out with a big bang.

    Seriously, when was the last time anyone hear picked up a copy of CT (that you actually paid for) or paid for their online subscription?

    They were probably last relevant in the late 80s. Their publications Christian History were always great – Leadership was informative – CT on the news / editorial side…less than ordinary. But I must give it to them, they have outlasted most.

  56. bob1 says:

    Even though part of me feels cynical about CT, I also commend them. I think Michael’s right — this will get uber ugly.

    To my way of thinking, if CT called for Clinton to be impeached, they sure as hell would have
    to call for Two Scoops Donnie to be also…what Clinton did was very small potatoes vs. our
    current Demagogue in Chief. The scope and scale are completely not the same.

  57. Jim says:

    “None deserves our support or endorsement.”

    This.

  58. Michael says:

    I’m watching the blowback on CT…I respect his courage,but Mark just sunk the oldest evangelical magazine with one article.
    Their over night numbers will be a disaster…

  59. Hillbilly NonDenon (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    Franklin Graham’s response:

    “ My Response to Christianity Today:

    Christianity Today released an editorial stating that President Trump should be removed from office—and they invoked my father’s name (I suppose to try to bring legitimacy to their statements), so I feel it is important for me to respond. Yes, my father Billy Graham founded Christianity Today; but no, he would not agree with their opinion piece. In fact, he would be very disappointed. I have not previously shared who my father voted for in the past election, but because of this article, I feel it is necessary to share it now. My father knew Donald Trump, he believed in Donald Trump, and he voted for Donald Trump. He believed that Donald J. Trump was the man for this hour in history for our nation.

    For Christianity Today to side with the Democrat Party in a totally partisan attack on the President of the United States is unfathomable. Christianity Today failed to acknowledge that not one single Republican voted with the Democrats to impeach the President. I know a number of Republicans in Congress, and many of them are strong Christians. If the President were guilty of what the Democrats claimed, these Republicans would have joined with the Democrats to impeach him. But the Democrats were not even unanimous—two voted against impeachment and one voted present. This impeachment was politically motivated, 100% partisan. Why would Christianity Today choose to take the side of the Democrat left whose only goal is to discredit and smear the name of a sitting president? They want readers to believe the Democrat leadership rather than believe the President of the United States.

    Look at all the President has accomplished in a very short time. The economy of our nation is the strongest it has been in 50 years, ISIS & the caliphate have been defeated, and the President has renegotiated trade deals to benefit all Americans. The list of accomplishments is long, but for me as a Christian, the fact that he is the most pro-life president in modern history is extremely important—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that, to say it doesn’t count? The President has been a staunch defender of religious freedom at home and around the world—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that? Also the President has appointed conservative judges in record number—and Christianity today wants us to ignore that? Christianity Today feels he should be removed from office because of false accusations that the President emphatically denies.

    Christianity Today said it’s time to call a spade a spade. The spade is this—Christianity Today has been used by the left for their political agenda. It’s obvious that Christianity Today has moved to the left and is representing the elitist liberal wing of evangelicalism.

    Is President Trump guilty of sin? Of course he is, as were all past presidents and as each one of us are, including myself. Therefore, let’s pray for the President as he continues to lead the affairs of our nation.”

  60. Duane Arnold says:

    “I also would have steered clear of politics. I’m grateful for the opportunities God gave me to minister to people in high places; people in power have spiritual and personal needs like everyone else, and often they have no one to talk to. But looking back I know I sometimes cros­sed the line, and I wouldn’t do that now.”
    Billy Graham, 2011

  61. Kevin H says:

    My response to much of Franklin Graham’s response to the Christianity Today editorial:

    “My father knew Donald Trump, he believed in Donald Trump, and he voted for Donald Trump. He believed that Donald J. Trump was the man for this hour in history for our nation.” – And so?  So what if Billy Graham voted for Donald Trump?  That has nothing to do with how he would have now felt about impeachment in light of how Trump has carried and conducted himself as president.  Billy Graham learned a hard lesson with his overzealous and imprudent support of Nixon.  Support and actions he came to greatly regret and repented of and realized that his becoming too partisan and reckless in politics hindered his opportunities and abilities to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and minister in His Name.

    “For Christianity Today to side with the Democrat Party in a totally partisan attack on the President of the United States is unfathomable. Christianity Today failed to acknowledge that not one single Republican voted with the Democrats to impeach the President.” – CT did not “side” with the Democrats.  Did Graham somehow miss near the beginning of the editorial how CT also criticized the Democrats.  CT is not being partisan.  They made it clear they were calling for Trump’s impeachment because they believe it is the right thing to do, not because it lines up with their partisan political desires.  It is both the Democrats and the Republicans in Congress and Graham himself who are being partisan, not CT.  For Graham to make it look like CT is being the partisan one when they are not and he himself is the one who is actually acting in a partisan manner is disingenuous.

    “Why would Christianity Today choose to take the side of the Democrat left whose only goal is to discredit and smear the name of a sitting president?” – This is a groundless assignment of motivations by Graham to CT and is nothing but sinful slander.
    “Look at all the President has accomplished in a very short time. The economy of our nation is the strongest it has been in 50 years, ISIS & the caliphate have been defeated, and the President has renegotiated trade deals to benefit all Americans.” – And so?  What does this have anything to do with what Trump is being charged with by the House or CT?  This is just a specious diversion to the issue at hand.

    “The list of accomplishments is long, but for me as a Christian, the fact that he is the most pro-life president in modern history is extremely important—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that, to say it doesn’t count? The President has been a staunch defender of religious freedom at home and around the world—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that? Also the President has appointed conservative judges in record number—and Christianity today wants us to ignore that? – More sinful slander from Graham.  Exactly where does CT say they want us to ignore these things?  They don’t.  Graham is making up false accusations.

    “Christianity Today feels he should be removed from office because of false accusations that the President emphatically denies.” – So after making his false accusations, Graham goes on to say the accusations against Trump are false.  How on earth does he know this?  There is much evidence that makes the accusations look quite credible.  He again is making a deceitful comment by calling the accusations false when there is no way possible he can know this to be true.

    “Christianity Today said it’s time to call a spade a spade. The spade is this—Christianity Today has been used by the left for their political agenda. It’s obvious that Christianity Today has moved to the left and is representing the elitist liberal wing of evangelicalism.” – Now he plays the old “liberal” attack card to play up to his conservative base.  This is nothing but an ad hominen attack and has no integrity to it.

    The only way that poisonous actions and attitudes like this from prominent Christian leaders are going to stop is if the lay people start standing up against it and overwhelming reject it rather than catering to it and following after it.  If our leaders will not show righteousness and integrity, it is up to us to do so.  Otherwise, our nation will only suffer more harm from unhealthy and wrongful strife and division and the name of Christ will continue to be dragged through the mud.

  62. Michael says:

    Nobody embarrassed Billy more than Franklin when he split the family by demanding that Ruth and Billy be buried next to a talking cow instead of on their beautiful property where they wanted to wait for the resurrection.

    Franklin has always been an opportunist and has supported many scoundrels…this is just who he is.

  63. Michael says:

    All CT accomplished was the end of the magazine.

    Reasoned arguments don’t matter and don’t work in the current culture, on either side of the aisle.
    Evangelicals are used to black and white, binary choices and act in those categories.
    Add to that the visceral nature of discourse and everything becomes a bloodletting.

  64. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael/Kevin H

    You are both much more kind than me.

    Oh, by the way, CT is now a “far left magazine” according to POTUS. Somehow I didn’t get the memo…

  65. Steve says:

    I do view the impeachment in black and white terms. Trump either did or did not commit an imeachable offense. Since there seems to be a disagreement on this, I’m hoping the SCOTUS steps in and settles this. I just think there needs to be something settled in our jurisprudence. I could care less what Franklin or CT ramble on.

  66. Michael says:

    I just read on Facebook one of my (pretty prominent) friends declaring that CT was no longer “Christian” because of the Trump article.
    The comment was “liked” by a lot of my friends and readers.
    I wonder if they now consider me outside the faith as well.
    If I were a prophecy wonk, I might think the end is near.
    I’m not, so I can only start to mourn what has become of us and what will happen going forward.

  67. filbertz says:

    politicians will use the support of Christians to get themselves elected and promote their common agendas. When one/they cease to be useful, the president (in this case) throws them to the side as he would used kleenex–and a destructive, incorrect label as well. One should not be surprised when it happens, because that has always been the behavior of those in the political arena. CT just got gored by a POTUS bull.

  68. filbertz says:

    Michael, evidently many christians are unwilling to think and read for themselves. There is little difference between those who cannot read and those who will not read.

  69. filbertz says:

    …and by your friend’s reasoning, anyone who didn’t/doesn’t vote for Trump is not Christian either. Is that now the litmus test for saving faith? If so, count me out.

  70. Xenia says:

    I don’t care for any of the cable news companies, but I do recommend getting yourselves a Twitter account and reading what the President says each morning (dozens of tweets) for yourselves. Primary evidence, unfiltered by Hannity or Anderson Cooper. Read his own words and draw your own conclusions about his fitness for office.

  71. Michael says:

    “There is little difference between those who cannot read and those who will not read.”

    That’s another can of worms…but so true..

    ” Is that now the litmus test for saving faith? If so, count me out.”

    I think people will be counting themselves out in droves in years to come…

  72. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    I agree…but I also follow some of the radical liberals so I understand what the religious right is so worried about.
    There is huge room for concern all the way around and a huge case for separating the church from this heinous political situation.

  73. Steve says:

    Xenia,

    I have to respectfully disagree with you that we should all get a Twitter account. Don’t we all have better things to do than participate in this nonsense in real time? I really like Melania Trump who’s one ctritism of her husband is that he tweets to much. She also takes a stance on cyber bullying. Trump should listen and get advice from her. It’s the best thing he could do.

  74. Cash says:

    Steve, there is no doubt Trump committed an impeachable offense. That’s why he is now an impeached president. The SCOTUS has nothing to say about this because the House of Representatives has the sole power to impeach which is given it by the Constitution of the United States. He asked another world leader to interfere in our domestic politics. It’s a betrayal of his oath, pure and simple.
    As far as the Evangelicals go, (I no longer consider myself an evangelical because of their support of Trump.) The CT article will make no difference at all because the right is only able to argue one thing: EVIL liberals. They are lost and confused and have lost their moral compass and their ability to reason. They are a cult of personality and Trump is their idol.
    Kevin H–great article!

  75. Michael says:

    I love Twitter because you can engage with very learned and accomplished people at the top of almost any field.
    To me, it’s the last gasp of what the internet could have been.
    There is also lots of cruelty and wickedness, but it can be muted and avoided.

  76. bob1 says:

    WRT Mark Galli…I have a book he wrote on Karl Barth’s theology for beginners…it’s well done
    and fair. I wonder if his knowledge of Barth/Bonhoeffer may have influenced his decision
    to editorialize about having Trump removed from office. Barth was a very earlier enemy
    of the German (Nazified) state Church. He saw through it right away. Galli definitely has some
    depth in his theology and thinking.

  77. bob1 says:

    I disagree with Steve. I’m on the Twitter. I think it’s really fun! I follow theology and
    current events folks that I like and a few I don’t agree with. It’s not a big time suck for me, as everything on there is, well, abbreviated. 🙂

  78. Steve says:

    Cash,
    There is an ongoing debate whether the president has truly been impeached if the articles of impeachment are not handed over to the Senate for trial.

  79. bob1 says:

    I think I’ll start a drinking game. Every time someone on the right uses the term “liberal” pejoratively, which is damn near all the time…drink!

    I notice Franklin G. did that with CT and Galli.

    Drink!

  80. Michael says:

    My measure of any activity is whether I can learn something.
    I’m an information and education addict.
    Twitter has been amazing to me…

  81. Cash says:

    Steve, the argument is moot. Whether the articles of Impeachment have been handed to the Senate makes no difference. Those articles were passed through the House of Representatives, which has the SOLE power of impeachment. He has been, remains today, and will remain forever, an impeached president. Recall that the impeachment itself is simply an indictment. The Senate definitely has a role on whether to remove him from office by finding him guilty of the indictment (articles of Impeachment.) I think the argument is a matter of semantics anyway.

  82. Cash says:

    bob1, There’s gonna be a lot of really drunk folks after your game! lol!

  83. Steve says:

    Cash,. Your right it’s all semantics. At this point impeachment is a badge of honor for an elite club. An unserved indictment is where I think the SCOTUS can be the judge and either force serving the Senate or forever render these articles as bunk.

  84. filbertz says:

    current politics: it’s like chess with really sophomoric players…even checkers is a reach for most.

  85. Cash says:

    Steve, don’t you think having to resort to ridiculous semantics to twist the truth is grossly misleading? And don’t you think it weakens the argument altogether? I mean, it’s an extraordinarily specious argument they’re trying to make.

  86. MM says:

    Fil:

    “Michael, evidently many christians are unwilling to think and read for themselves. There is little difference between those who cannot read and those who will not read.”

    I sometimes have the same thoughts and then I step back and realize others might say the same about me.

    As independent thinking as I think I am, the realization is my whole life has molded me to perceive everything in light off the bubble around me. My parents, schools, tragedies, awards, and all the people around prevent me from truly being an individual and free thinker.

    I admit these things about myself and it actually frees me to better understand others and consider their views.

    What I do know is this; certain behaviors are destructive and bring chaos to peoples live. And like a horse, leading people to better choices won’t make them drink the water.

    For instance in the USA we have become a nation of obese people. Our diets are absolutely horrible and yet we have the science and knowledge to make a change which will enhance our lives. But we don’t. Instead we turn to seemingly easy fixes, a drug or a magic pill.

    The only point I have here is I admit a failure to see and hear all too often. And I like places like PP, because of the comments people post. They help me think a little more openly.

    Just 5 days till Christmas!!!

    BTW read Exodus and see this failure of believers is historically common. Don’t bather me while I eat that scrumptious donut. (Hurts just opened in my area). Moses you talk to God and tell us what He said.

  87. Steve says:

    Cash,. I don’t think the left wants an aquital and that is why Pelosi is not sending the articles over to Senate. Very unfair process. To me the entire process in the house was a sham and illigitimate. However, it doesn’t really matter what my or your opinion is. We appear to be at an impasse in our country in the way forward. My only remark was we may need SCOTUS to help pave a way forward if possible. If not, we should probably prepare for a civil war and figure out how the church can be a light to a lost world rather than being used as pawns on both sides of the civil war.

  88. filbertz says:

    MM–thanks for the thoughts. I was reading the facebook responses to Franklin Graham’s CT response and that is what provoked my comment–group-think at its worst, and clearly the vast majority hadn’t read the CT article. They were thanking him for telling them what it said. One even asked him if he could force CT to retract the op-ed. These same people who are essentially arguing for censorship believe they are ‘constitutional.’ Truly we are in dark days and many evangelicals have exchanged their souls for hero worship and sound bites.

  89. Cash says:

    Filbertz–Dark days indeed.

  90. Babylon's Dread says:

    Our nation is dying for ONE moral civil coherent voice.

    All men (people) are liars!

    Our faith could use one or two as well.

    100 years ago the world was coming out of an apocalypse that defined the course of the whole century.

    The present century’s nature is likely to be revealed within the next 10 years.

    Right now it looks ominous.

    Resurrection never reveals itself in blooming splendor but in horrifying sepsis.

  91. Xenia says:

    Well Steve, all I can say is that you are apparently content to have the President’s words and thoughts curated for you by Fox News, or whoever it is you watch. I believe Fox News filters out his more whackadoodle tweets, just as CNN filters out his more sensible ones. You don’t have to get involved with the rest of Twitter; just log in every few days to see what Mr. Trump is saying. Don’t trust the news agencies, read for yourself.

    This baffles me. Most of the Trump supporters I know (relatives, etc.) avoid Twitter because they say it’s a time-waster, a mad-house, etc. It is both of those things, true enough. But if I had the ability to read a primary source I would avail myself of it, rather than relying on biased (both sides) secondary and tertiary sources. You might appreciate his tweets and find them to be full of wisdom. You will never know unless you read them for yourself.

    As for the rest of Twitter craziness I am sure you have the discernment to spend your time wisely.

    Whatever side of the issue people fall on, if you are going to offer opinions, it’s best to rely on primary sources.

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t have a Twitter account and the best I can figure is that it stimulates like porn. If I am going to be involved with porn I would choose looking at naked ladies as my first choice.

  93. Michael says:

    MLD,

    That’s almost shameful.
    I have been able to engage with some of the best theologians and historians alive through Twitter…I’ve gained so much from it and I’m grateful for it.
    As Xenia noted you can go straight to primary sources…invaluable.
    You compare this to porn?
    Unreal…

  94. Xenia says:

    I conclude that we can ignore the opinions of those who refuse to read the primary sources.

  95. Michael says:

    BD,

    That gave me chills.
    Well said…

  96. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We do not impeach for Twitter tweets. Some would like to.
    Getting up to read dozens of comments from one person is pretty sicko as far as I can tell.

    Trumps twitter account is his laser beam and ya’ll are cats. While you are distracted he is changing the make up of the entire federal court system, totally ended Obamacare yesterday – we can go on and on, but if you want to read twitter for unofficial comments – we are America.

  97. Jean says:

    MLD,

    With all due respect, Trump didn’t end Obamacare yesterday. But he is trying, and I infer that you think that would be a good outcome. You lack compassion for the millions of Americans who today have health insurance due to Obamacare, who would not without it.

  98. Duane Arnold says:

    A quick reality check on a couple of points –

    I’ve written for Christianity Today and I’ve had books and music reviewed in Christianity Today. When submitting my resume for positions in regular academic institutions I had to down play those articles and reviews because the magazine was considered to be so conservative – theologically and culturally. Mainstream theologians used to jokingly refer to it as “Christianity Yesterday”. All this is to say, this is no hotbed of left wing liberals.

    I, for one, am pleased that the editorial was written. The reaction has simply confirmed what we all already know – Christians are deeply, deeply divided. Trump is merely a promoter and symbol of that division. The divisions are theological, cultural, intellectual, educational and even regional. I will readily admit that I would not have wished to “have fellowship” with Franklin Graham before Trump’s election and I certainly would not wish to now. The divisions may well be permanent. The pity of it all is that we have become like the Roman senators of the fifth century, debating our side in the forum while the barbarians are at the gates. I don’t know if my view of the coming years is quite as dark as BD’s, but it’s close.

  99. Michael says:

    Two people I worked with at CT left because the mag holds to a traditional stance on LBGTQ issues…

  100. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean,
    SCOTUS ruled yesterday the mandate unconstitutional. That was the only thing keeping Obama care going.
    This has nothing to do with compassion. If we need to pay for healthcare let’s do it right and actually pay for it not adding to the deficit. Let’s bring our troops home, let’s cut the military budget by 1/3rd, tell the allies to cough up their share and pay cash for the healthcare system.

    But my point was while you chase Trump’s laser beam (tweets) he’s doing his job.

    FYI, my daughter and my niece both lost their healthcare for 2 yrs under Obama care – nothing affordable and nothing in the exchange and they weren’t alone.
    But we have elections coming up, perhaps you will get your way.

  101. Em says:

    MLlD. @3:02
    Having been raised in a family very involved in the business world, you, some of you, evidently would be very surprised at how they talk… Trump is no exception… Their salty language and careless accusations has very little to do with how honest or smart they are when conducting business…. It isn’t a Christian way of life, but … who said it was? Not God

  102. Xenia says:

    MLD,

    “Let’s bring our troops home, let’s cut the military budget by 1/3rd, tell the allies to cough up their share and pay cash for the healthcare system.”

    I am happy to agree with you here.

  103. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It sounds like Trueman was subtlety taking Galli to the woodshed.

  104. Hillbilly NonDenom (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    Well Dobson has weighed in now. The battle lines appear to be drawn.

    It has me wondering if this was truly the Democrats’ strategy: try to fracture the evangelical base.

    If so…that would be rather telling.

  105. Steve says:

    Xenia, I already said I really don’t like Trump’s tweets. So it baffles my mine why I should get a Twitter account so I can read what I dont like. I can still support Trump and dislike his tweets at the same time.

  106. Michael says:

    The evangelical base fractured under Obama. It simply has been expressed to the fullest under this President. Churches, friendships, and families all have been fractured.

  107. Duane Arnold says:

    HNDFKAJF

    You’re in the twilight zone.

  108. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve

    Try knowing what you are writing about…

  109. bob1 says:

    MLD has said a lot of retarded things on here…

    But I think the Twitter=porn is the stupidest and most ignorant.

    Apparently he has no filter…

  110. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hey bob1 – if you think jumping out of bed to read dozens of Trump daily tweets isn’t porn like behavior, you may want to give that a 2nd think.

  111. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, in today’s triggered world, is bob1 allowed to use retard in a name calling outburst?
    It sounds very Trump like. You may want to sit him down for a talk.

  112. Jean says:

    “SCOTUS ruled yesterday the mandate unconstitutional. That was the only thing keeping Obama care going.”

    I’m kind of glad you said something, among others, as stupid as the above. That is a totally erroneous statement. But I’m glad, because I don’t bother with the ignorant.

  113. Steve says:

    Duane,

    If you are implying we have to read every Trump tweet to have an opinion on impeachment, this is beyond bizzarre. I have read enough of his tweets that I find them annoying but not at all what the radical left interprets them as. Annoyying is easy to deal with. I don’t feel a pressing need to follow every Trump tweet. I guess if I was writing a biography on Trump I would follow him but I’m not. But I will probably vote for him for another 4 years.

  114. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve

    I have a rule… read first, comment later. It’s a pretty common tool that is used for having an informed opinion, not to mention coming to a conclusion.

  115. Xenia says:

    I can still support Trump and dislike his tweets at the same time.<<<

    Ok, I'll stop bugging you about it.

  116. I listen to both liberal and conservative radio, and also follow discussions on Quora. Like this thread, I find certain arguments compelling on both sides, trying to empathize with both. Whatever the case and whatever happens, I’ll keep slogging away day-to-day to provide for my family, and adjust as needed to however government helps or hurts my family. It is what it is, bread and circuses.

  117. BrianD says:

    Our nation is headed towards completely avoIdable and unnecessary violence and bloodshed. Trump, Twitter, cable news aren’t the problem. WE are the problem, and we are the only solution. It will take doing unspeakable acts: things like seeing the enemy as human beings worthy of our love and respect, and working together for our own and for others benefit.

  118. Steve says:

    Duane,. Your condescension is on display. Who knows maybe I am more informed than you but who is the judge of that?

  119. MM says:

    BrianD

    “ Our nation is headed towards completely avoIdable and unnecessary violence and bloodshed. ”

    I heard others say the same, a “civil war” is going to happen. I just don’t see it and feel such statements are hyperbole and baseless.

    For such a thing to happen there has to be a real base of people who are oppressed and desiring change. Who might these people be in your opinion?

    The last time the USA had general violence in our streets was during the civil rights and Vietnam War era. Where and what are the issues which would similarly unite people against others these days?

    Just do buy it.

  120. Duane Arnold says:

    Steve

    I can only go by what you write…

  121. Steve says:

    Duane, can you be more specific instead of an all inclusive comment?

  122. Michael says:

    “For such a thing to happen there has to be a real base of people who are oppressed and desiring change. Who might these people be in your opinion?”

    I think BrianD may be right.
    Trumps base believes they have been oppressed and he represents their keeping of religious freedom and the protection of the Second Amendment.
    I have already read on the social media of many former friends the intent to take up arms if they deem it necessary.
    We have already laid the groundwork necessary for bloodshed by dehumanizing and labeling each other…

  123. MM says:

    Maybe, I just don’t know anyone who would actually do such a thing. Our Nation’s police and Guard are far better equipped and trained than anytime in the past. It would be a no contest and the civilians will lose badly.

  124. Michael says:

    MM,

    That’s where you’re wrong, with all due respect.
    Many of these guys know that our military and police are not prepared for the kind of guerrilla warfare that could happen.
    At the end of the day, they would lose, but not without taking a lot of folks with them.

  125. Duane Arnold says:

    Again, a reality check:
    It is estimated that there are 393 million guns in private hands in the US (population 326 million).
    The estimate of semi-automatic (assault) rifles is 15-20 million.
    ATF lists 638,000 fully automatic weapons (machine guns) in private hands.
    The numbers speak for themselves as to the danger of civil unrest…

  126. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, you have got to get off Twitter and put down your horse pucky firing flamethrower.

    We just saw the impeachment of the President which we know “the Trump base” as you have identified them, were pretty unanimous in their thoughts (rightly or wrongly) that it was a great injustice by the House. However, at the conclusion there were no protests, demonstrations – violence in the streets, breaking storefront windows or looting of local businesses.

    Now let’s advance a couple of months to the time Trump will be acquitted (I think we can all agree on that) I can guaranty what will happen with the “anti Trumpian base” – total chaos and violence. Antifa will be out, masked and armed as usual, those wearing vagina suits will be there enmass, along with those who advocate that teenage boys be able to cut off their penis and teenage girls their breasts – led by Nancy, Maxine and AOC.

    Cities will burn 🔥 (no comments required – just put it in your memory bank for aquital day.)

  127. Cash says:

    MLD You focus only on the violence by far left groups such as Antifa (which I believe is a made up boogeyman, but I digress). You conveniently ignore the far right extremism that drives cars into people they disagree with and feel right about it. Your “righteous” president says there are “good people on both sides” of a white power protest. You are willfully blind to Trump’s evil and I call a spade a spade.

  128. Jean says:

    Cash and Duane,

    This is the consequence of hate speech normalized by the President:

    https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/iowa-woman-said-she-ran-over-girl-in-racist-attack-police/2191703/

  129. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Yes, there was no racism before Trump. I wonder how he developed racism in 3 short years? Oh I know, but raising the employment levels to all time highs. (blacks, Hispanics, women) or perhaps him having Jews in his family fuels this racism.
    The racism comes from the anti Trump side as with last week when the anti Trumpets tried to start a race war over the cadets and midshipman playing the circle game.

    Anti Trumpism should be declared a hate crime.

  130. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I will answer you respectfully and then moderate you.
    There are fringe groups on both sides that already engage in civic violence.
    I am utterly unconcerned about them and think that they all need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for disrupting the civil order.
    Antifa strikes me as a bunch of punks who are angry that they can’t get a date.
    The kind of violence I’m worried about is when those who are not on the fringe decide to get involved.
    If Trump were to be removed from office or lose the next election by a contested margin, I believe that kind of violence could happen.
    Your comments about Twitter only show that you’re ignorant of what can actually be gleaned from it..and show that in this day and age anything we can say to demean another person is acceptable.
    It’s not acceptable here.

  131. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Cash, he is not my righteous president – I think he does many things that are unrighteous – but I think if he were a public figure I would find that my grocer is too. We do not impeach because someone has a different worldview than you do or different moral compass. But you can vote him out of office in 10.5 months – that is the way we do it.
    Good luck finding that righteous person to replace him. Perhaps you could get Jean to run – he is the only righteous person I know. 🙂

    You need to get the whole video of Trump’s speech about “good people on both sides” – it was not as presented and if you keep passing it on as such, you become unrighteous.

  132. Cash says:

    MLD, I am already unrighteous, brother. A sinner saved by grace. I don’t like getting into political arguments with the added argument over religion. I respect you and your views. Don’t agree with them but do respect them.

  133. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Cash, “Don’t agree with them but do respect them.” as I do with you.
    Merry Christmas.

  134. BrianD says:

    MM,

    I don’t know anyone who would do such a thing, either. That doesn’t mean those people aren’t out there.

    To answer your question, ‘who are these people who are oppressed and desiring change’? Not to say all these groups would take up arms, but here they are according to my observations:

    * African-Americans were screwed from the day the European slave traders took the first Africans and forced them onto the boats that deposited them onto the shores of the New World and into the cages of the bastards who saw them as cattle to be bred, sold and used, not as human beings made equally in the eyes of the God that some of them claimed to have served. You know the history. America has desegregated more quickly since Obama took office than at any other time in history, by my observation: yet, these folks still see white people in power, and African Americans have decided they’re not second-class citizens, that they have as much of place every where in this nation as white folks. But the vast majority of them see Trump not as the Great White Hope, but as a real threat. They see him as wanting to Make America White Again, a threat not just aimed at Latino immigrants but at the blacks. If those among Trump’s supporters who are white supremacists push to marginalize blacks and Trump doesn’t speak out against it, do you think African Americans will hang their heads and go back to watching WorldStar videos on their phones? You don’t think they’d be angry and want to do something about it?

    * Hispanics. This is the fastest growing demographic in America and it will soon render whites as a plural majority — still the largest racial group compared to the others individually, but smaller than the other groups combined. They’re also making America Not White, and because the Mexican cartels already have a presence within the States and have embedded themselves into the waves of immigrants trying to get in, All Hispanics are a threat. The base loves Mexican food, probably doesn’t care about LigaMX being better than Major League Soccer, but doesn’t like how the nice middle-class parts of town are looking run down and all the signs are in Spanish, now. Do you not think there’s real anger in the Hispanic community towards a white President who’s all but made it clear he is hostile towards their presence in his country?

    * The gays. Specifically, LGBTQI. Being gay is far more acceptable in America now than it ever was, but there are many places in MURICA where Matt Bomer or Jodie Foster would not be welcomed. Transgender people have it hard, as they have to work through their transitions in a world where men are still expected to be men and women still expected to be women, and Never Shall The Two Blend. Someone looking like a man in a dress, no matter if the person is trying to be the woman they believe themselves to be, is enough of a threat to many men to inspire ridicule, violence and even murder. The religious right has convinced the public that a trans person wanting to use the bathroom is a predator waiting to rape normal, decent folk. Yes, there are predators within the LGBTQI community (as there are among Catholic priests and Baptist pastors, among other groups), but most queer folk are decent people who just want to be themselves and love their partner, in peace. That opinion will not go far on this blog but it is the truth. When Trump gets behind every insane motion by the religious right to marginalize and eliminate these folks, do you not think they will be angered and speak out? Do you not think they will fight?

    * Anyone who’s liberal/progressive/leftist. Trump and the religious right, along with the neocons, have managed to convince a significant portion of the public that this group is anti-American, anti-gun, anti-self-protection, pro-death, anti-law-and-order, pro-taking your money and redistributing all of it to someone else (probably the poor), pro-China, anti-freedom, pro-heathen, and anti-God. Wanting a living wage, a sane work-life balance and quality healthcare that doesn’t come with a bill that means you having to sell your house is bad, very bad; working like a dog and having your benefits dwindle down to nothing (or, worse, having to buy pseudo “faith-based” healthcare) while the rich get richer and you get a cent-an-hour annual raise is preferable and probably great. Good is Evil; Evil is Good.

    You don’t think working like sh*t, living like sh*t, being treated like sh*t, and ignored and marginalized like a piece of sh*t won’t incite people to revolution and violence? Do yourself a favor and go read Tropic of Kansas by Christopher Brown; that study on 2 Chronicles, that Pastor Skip podcast, that book by Perry Stone or Max Lucado will still be there when you’re done.

    * Millenials and the generations after them. THey are burdened with tens of thousands of dollars in college debt, they have to pay most of their monthly salary just for a place to live, and work like a dog to get anywhere. Yes, I know Dave Ramsey and your pastor and thousands of other Christian celebrities say Work is Good, but there’s a limit. Yes, I know Dave tells you to save, but how in hell can you save enough to stay above the poverty line at age 75 when 90 percent of your take-home pay goes to rent, transportation and food? (STOP BUYING PIZZA, DAMMIT. LEARN HOW TO BUDGET. AND WORK OT INSTEAD OF WATCHING THE YOUTUBE)

    Then there’s Climate Change. The dinosaur in the room that the church refuses to confront because Jesus WILL Come Back Soon, Probably In The Next Few Years (he’s always promised to come back soon, hasn’t he?). We won’t have to worry about it, because 1) it’s not real — Fox News and Ken Ham affirm this — and 2) the Antichrist will have been thrown in the lake of fire and Jesus will be starting his 1,000-year reign by then, and he’ll have snapped his fingers, Thanos-style, and turned the global temperature into clear with a high of 77 and a low of 68, 24/365. Trump affirms whatever his base wants to believe about climate change.

    They’re all fools.

    The Millenials and their successors are going to have to deal with the sh*tstorm our generation has created by consistently ignoring the issue and acting as if it doesn’t exist. But hey, if anyone ends up boiling alive on a 6 degree Celsius Earth, it won’t be us, because we’ll all be in heaven (or hell).

    Do you not think THAT would incite people to revolution and violence?

    * Finally, let’s end with Trump’s base.

    They see the white majority quickly becoming a minority as African-Americans and Hispanics grow in number and threaten to outnumber whites within the next few decades.

    They also see immigrants coming into the country, mostly Hispanic, some Muslim, among others, and see parts of their cities and towns formerly white and middle class now turning Mexican/other Latino/Middle Eastern with far fewer signs in English and, in their perception, looking much more run down when it was white.

    Then they look at the growing LGBTQI population, especially those who are teenaged and 20something. Their existence is an affront to the base’s Christian convictions; trans people in particular are deemed as demons, because gender identity was never touched on in the Bible and God made everyone man and woman via their genitals forever and ever Amen, and some neocon dimwits decided all transgender people were hellbent on exposing themselves to every child they came across in the bathrooms at Target and the religious right brought into it. Plus, trans women in particular are a threat to men, because God made man a man and a person born male who wants to present as female is enough of a threat to justify Bubba beating the living hell out of her in the Wal-Mart parking lot and all of us Godly Christians should be there cheering him on and holding back any cop trying to break it up.

    Then there are gay and bisexual men and women who look straight but are still a threat because the idea is still out there that the gays like kiddos, in addition to being gay securing your ticket to Hell. Fortunately, the Truly Reformed psychobabblers have been out there telling us that all gay folks merely suffer from something called Same Sex Attraction, and there’s a cure! It’s called Reperative Therapy, and the Truly Reformed, Bethel Redding (yes, THAT Bethel) and the Mormons are all offering the cure, despite the thousands of stories from people telling of the hell they went through and that it didn’t work, and the universal condemnation of the practice from the all the sources that Trump’s base will reject anyway.

    And we have the “far left socialists”, namely anyone who’s a Democrat, or liberal, or progressive or (God forbid) socialist or (gasp) Communist. Trump has convinced his base that these folks, far from wanting a better world for us all, actually want to play Stalin and take away all of their rights, including the right to worship Jesus at all, protect your property, and own as much cash as possible. He and the religious right have managed to convince the base and much of the public that working 80 hours a week at minimum wage and having to decide whether that gnawing pain in your chest is really worth you paying $6,000 to fix is preferable to a system where the government makes sure everyone gets a living wage and has free or inexpensive QUALITY healthcare and doesn’t work like a dog until they’re 85. If they’re calling Biden, Bernie and Liz Communists, how long before they do the purity test on your neighbor, force out of him or her that they’re a member of the Democratic Party, and thus be branded socially with the Scarlet Hammer and SIckle?

    I haven’t heard of the base going after the growing segment of the population who claims no religion or flat-out states they’re atheist, but it would shock me if it didn’t happen. Discredit real scientists and promote hacks like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind as The Truth and, because the Satanic Temple admits it’s actually an atheist group using the theatre of satanism to prove a point, ALL atheists must admit they actually rejected Jesus to worship at the hooves of Satan.

    The blacks. The Hispanics. The faggots. The trannies. The Communists. The Satanic atheists. Those darned kids with their misconceptions about the weather.

    Now do you see the threats to the base?

  135. Michael says:

    BrianD,

    A lot to unpack there.
    Let me play the devil’s advocate for a bit.
    I agree with you that the changing ethic demographic is part of what motivates a large part of the base we’re talking about.
    I think everyone here knows where I stand on those issues.
    You bring up the LGBTQ issues and state that they simply want to live in peace alongside their straight neighbors.
    That is true of some, I’m sure.
    On the other hand…LGBTQ activists have splintered every denomination they can and demand that I deny my faith to accommodate them.
    Based on the Scriptures, tradition, and reason, I simply cannot and will not affirm or participate in gay marriages.
    I can hold that position while affirming their right to civil unions and participation in churches that will affirm them.
    I can affirm that they are entitled to every legal right I have in this country.
    I can live and let live…they refuse to do so.
    I believe the transgender lobby has introduced confusion into young people that will destroy many of them.
    We got Trey out of public schools and one of the reasons for that is that it’s hard enough to navigate adolescence in this time without authorities telling you to question your sexuality.
    For those who are truly transgendered, (an incredibly small part of the overall population) I offer my support, but the idea that we accommodate them in every way in all areas of civil life to the detriment of the vast majority is ludicrous and financially and culturally impossible.
    The only people who want an extra restroom in all public facilities are those who don’t have a clue what that would cost.
    We know climate change is real…do we know if that is cyclical or man made?
    The science is over my head.
    Way over.
    I agree with you on economic and health care issues…but those have to be bi partisan and stable to work long term…hopefully we can see that happen.
    Always good to see you, my friend.

  136. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    BrianD – every generation goes through what you listed and think the world is coming to an end. I was in college during the late 60s and things were so bad that the mantra was to “turn on, tune in and drop out – the phrse of Timothy Leary of LSD fame. So bleak was the outlook that it spawned the 2nd incarnation of the Beatles and the Hippie Generation.
    All was going to hell in a hand basket – war claiming the lives of 50,000 Americans – 3 major assassinations, cities being burnt down (1965 & 68) in race wars.
    The climate was an issue – except then we were going to freeze to death – Earth Day was created in that time period.

    Probably not as dire as middle age Europe with plaques, wars lasting 30 yrs and getting hit in the head with those spiked balls on chains.
    This to will pass.

  137. BrianD says:

    Michael, always good to see you as well. I’m not looking to start nor win an internet argument, just to say what’s been on my mind and heart.

    We will disagree in an amicable manner.

    I usually want to take the activists from any group and shove them onto their own deserted island, but they ARE usually the ones who end up helping push society forward on a given issue…or reinforce society’s stance on it. In the case of transgender related issues, I would caution holding off until age 18 to make any decision regarding transition…but that decision should not be swayed by politicians, activists, celebrities, concerned evangelicals nor anyone else but the person themselves.

    Educate yourself on climate change, if for no other reason than to help educate yourself on the world that Trey and his contemporaries will inherit.

    Bipartisanship and long-term thinking have been thrown away by Washington politicians. If Congress chooses to return to that despite of whomever’s sitting in the Oval Office, it will help heal the division in our country, even a little bit.

  138. Michael says:

    BrianD,

    The other thing that has many disturbed is that wholesale change in how we think and speak is being demanded by many.
    When I was a young man Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor were wildly popular.
    They would be destroyed on social media today.
    We live in an era of thought and speech police that those of us who grew up in freedom have a big problem with.
    Growing up in rural Oregon, I learned to shoot before I was five years old.
    We really did have gun racks in the trucks…no big deal.
    It’s a big deal now…I can’t imagine the reaction if we pulled into Walmart with a “normal” pick up circa 1975.
    Put all these things together and a lot of folks think freedom itself is at stake…and that creates huge tension.

  139. BrianD says:

    MLD, thank you for reassuring me that All This Has Happened Before And All This Will Happen Again, and we’ll still be here.

    The ‘60s didn’t have the World Wide Web, which offers a wide arrays of amazing things and is also a venue for crackpots, lunatics and radicals to say whatever the hell they want and imbed whatever bullsh*t propaganda they want into the public conversation. There are enough people who will not think critically and ask questions, but swallow whatever crap Breitbart and Rick Wiles and their counterparts on the left want them to buy.

    My, and others’, concerns over these issues are very real. I hope to god that the experts are wrong about global warming and it is a phase. But I don’t want people in this and the next century to suffer because we told ourselves the Science Is Biased Towards The Liberals.

  140. BrianD says:

    Michael, I grew up in the city, sheltered by well-meaning Christian parents from as much of the world as they could. It was to my benefit and detriment.

    The reason I bring that up is because although I have relatives who grew up and came of age in similar environments as you, I did not, and that informs my views. That means I have to listen to other views, and when I get new information, to change my views accordingly. Thanks for helping me see an angle I haven’t thought about enough.

    Now, the thought police are out there, and there’s a dark side to political correctness that’s ignored by many not on the right. Cancel Culture is one of the most disgusting things to come out of social media, and OK Boomer isn’t much better — but neither is hating on the Millenials because they don’t act like previous generations.

    Simply put, we’ve got to be able to talk to one another, and find ways to constructively debate and attack ideas while showing dignity towards the debater. I admit I’m still learning to do this, and I should’ve learned it long ago.

  141. Michael says:

    “Simply put, we’ve got to be able to talk to one another, and find ways to constructively debate and attack ideas while showing dignity towards the debater. I admit I’m still learning to do this, and I should’ve learned it long ago.”

    Wer’e all learning how to do this as we go…and it’s not easy. Well said, my friend.

  142. BrianD says:

    The New Yorker podcast recently posted an episode about Russia’s Channel One, the state broadcaster that regularly airs every conceivable theory about every news event with the goal of confusing the audience so much on a given issue that they throw their hands up and say, ‘no way to tell what’s going on’.

    Sound familiar?

    https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/tnyradiohour/segments/how-channel-one-keeps-news-safe-putin

    By the way, The Donald Hearts Putin.

  143. MM says:

    Wow!

    One leaves for a few hours and the world ignites.

    You all may be right, however, I’m not quite as old as MLD, but remember the ugliness of the late 60s. It was a time of reform.

    I really think the USA has the goods to prevent this storm you all think may happen. Saying one will take up arms and actually doing are two extremely different things.

    All those “armed” people you list are, at least the majority, some of the most law abiding and passionate people for and in these United States. The only way I can envision all out in out rebellion is if the Government became so tyrannical the basics of life became difficult for the majority. Or they continue down the track of taking away legal rights which were affirmed by our highest courts.

    Basically, besides my faith in God, I have faith in the people of this community we call the USA. If needed they have and will step up to defend what was established so many years ago.

    Now if we would only stop voting in people who want to bankrupt us all.

  144. MM says:

    BrianD

    I’m one of those who knows global warming is real. The basic observations show the environment is in a warming trend.

    However, it is somewhat debatable that humans are a primary or even a secondary cause of it. The problem with all the calls to “fix” the problem will, not might, bright global economic crisis along with them.

    Human use of energy and all the possible ways to produce it are a huge part of our global economy. Returning to a simpler, more “renewable” life will bring a world depression beyond understanding, starvation, death and resource wars not known since the dawn of man (love that hyperbole).

    Even Trump understands and those in Europe who are trying to make plans to check the warming also know this. It’s a conundrum beyond most of our simple knowledge and understanding of such things.

    Sadly those who have been raised in the richest and most spoiled age of humanity will see the beginnings of this in theirs and their children’s lives.

    Civil war is nothing compared to the coming global crisis.

    Hope this gets the thread off the Trump wheel for a bit.

    😉

  145. Jean says:

    “Now if we would only stop voting in people who want to bankrupt us all.”

    Facts are stubborn:

    “Donald Trump: Trump plans to add $5.088 trillion to the debt in his first term. That’s a 30% increase from the $20.245 trillion debt at the end of Obama’s last budget for FY 2017. If he remains in office for a second term, he plans to add $9.1 trillion. Trump had promised to eliminate the debt during his campaign.

    “FY 2021 – $1.276 trillion.
    FY 2020 – $1.281 trillion.
    FY 2019 – $1.314 trillion.
    FY 2018 – $1.217 trillion.

    “Barack Obama: Added $8.588 trillion, a 74% increase from the $11.657 trillion debt at the end of Bush’s last budget, FY 2009.”

    Notable for those with a memory, is that while Trump passed a tax cut overwhelmingly benefiting the wealthy during a strong economy (creating a risk going into the next recession), Obama entered his presidency during the worst financial crisis and recession since the great depression, during which fiscal stimulus is a tool to bring recovery, which it did. Arguably, Trump is the most fiscally irresponsible president in modern history.

  146. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Sometimes life is good and sometimes life is not good…in every generation.

    “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.”
    Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities

    Most of the time, life itself sucks and most of us couldn’t find our own ass in the dark – with both hands. Time to suck it up – MLD on the PP blog. 🙂

  147. Hillbilly Nondenom (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    “the changing ethic demographic is part of what motivates a large part of the base”

    I’m not so sure if that is the case, but perhaps I run in the wrong circles to know better. My suspicion is that the base is more worried about allowing non-citizens to vote, with many of the non-citizens leaning ‘left’, and a fear that the ‘left’ wants to allow unchecked immigration in order to grow their voting base (and, thus, their power over the country).

    “The only way I can envision all out in out rebellion is if the Government became so tyrannical the basics of life became difficult for the majority.”

    You mean like trying to remove a lawfully-elected president? That’s what scares me.

    “it is somewhat debatable that humans are a primary or even a secondary cause of [global warming].”

    Personally I am convinced that we are undeniably the proximate cause. We did this in a mere 220 years, and it is going to take a (dare I say the word in these parts) miracle to reverse it before major global catastrophes occur: https://sealevel.info/co2_logscale_with_1960_highlighted.html

    “Trump is the most fiscally irresponsible president in modern history.”

    I have to say his policies have done wonders for my net worth.

  148. Babylon's Dread says:

    What no one does is take the time to seriously assess why Trump is supported. No one asks why impeachment only garners more support. No one wonders why his twitter idiocy doesn’t turn off supporters. The academy, the press, the entertainment industry, and the social media are all dominated by progressivism and yet Trump’s loyalty grows when they impeach him. What’s going on here?

    Trump taps into a basic distrust of our institutions that is growing and is far more persistent than the academy, the media, the entertainment industry and the social justice left have been able to displace. That distrust is being fed by revelations about our FBI, CIA, FISA courts, and growing concern about civil liberties and the surveillance state.

    Mark Galli’s tepid retirement rant shows his ignorance of those he critiques. He’s right of course that Trump is a brutish bully. However, Trump talks to ordinary people in a way that makes them trust him more than they trust the institutions that have been betraying us. They trust him more than those who have possessed the education system, educated our children into apostasy and made tax payers fund things that we would not allow spoken at our table. They trust him more than the Galli evangelicalism that domesticated Graham’s evangelistic media voice. Goodbye Galli – no one will care next week that you lobbed a hail Nancy at your retirement.

    Trump is to be feared but not because of the reasons they state in public. He is to be feared because he does not appear to belong to the system left or right. He’s the answer to the question at the local diner, “why the hell doesn’t somebody do something about this mess.”

    That’s what he appeals to and that’s why they will never stop making him the issue. “He’s crazy, he’s delusional, he’s dangerous, he’s vile, he’s maniacal.” Yes, and you can’t control him with things as they’ve been. Whatever comes it won’t be boring and likely it will be volatile and potentially worse.

  149. BrianD says:

    Suck it up and do what, MLD? Take it? Life is hard, so f*cking what, man up and all the other bullsh*t that we were told as kids?

    MLK should’ve listened to you. Separate but Equal, know your role, shut your damn mouth. Women should’ve sucked it up and baked pies in the kitchen while popping out babies at a rate that would make a Quiverful wife envious. Anyone not a white heterosexual man should “suck it up”.

    MLK and African Americans had enough of “it’s always been this way and it always will and suck it up” and changed the course of the nation. Gloria Steinem and her contemporaries had enough of it too and helped make it possible for women to have careers outside the home, if they so chose. Every minority group that clashed against the great white heterosexual Christian majority had activists who were willing to stand up and say “we have the same God-given rights you do, and we’ll fight for them until we get them and keep them”.

    There are a lot of things at play right now. The wise old contrarian who tries to soothe someone’s anger with the wisdom to cheer up, everything will get better, so suck it up, get over yourself and start behaving will not be listened to — especially when it comes from a white straight man (or an ally, like Betsy DeVos or Jesse Lee Peterson) who’s delivering the advice.

  150. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    BrianD – no, suck it up and make life what you want it to be – because life DOES suck.
    Get out there and do it.

  151. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    BrianD, I just went back over your last post. I did not say nor suggest anything you accused me of – not a one. That would make you the beaer of false witness.

    All I tried to tell you is that you, your generation nor all living today have it worse than others in history.
    Life is tough and people overcome.

  152. BrianD says:

    Dread, interesting food for thought. Although I look at it from a different angle than you, I think your points are, overall, spot on.

    Trump listened to the people that the liberals who run the Democratic Party ignored. That, and Hilary being Hilary, handed him the election. 2020 is setting up to be an us-vs-them race (white heterosexual Christians (real and professed) and whites who couldn’t care less about Jesus but love Trump against everyone else, represented by Biden, Warren, Bloomberg, Buttigeg or whomever wins the nomination.

    Some of the outrage against the Dems is fueled by special interest groups and individuals on the right who know how to fuel that outrage and manipulate Trump supporters to create more outrage. And for every Christian Trump supporter who’s outraged by evolution being taught in schools and “transgenders” and lost people “suffering from ‘SSA'” being openly seen in public life, there’s a heathen who could care less about you and your God, and thinks The Donald can make the faggots, the Mexicans and the blacks go away.

  153. Jean says:

    BD wrote:

    “He’s the answer to the question at the local diner, ‘why the hell doesn’t somebody do something about this mess.’ ”

    I agree with what BD wrote insofar as he is the answer at the local dinner. This approach is what is commonly called Populism.

    The problem is, and what his dinner supporters will eventually realize is that Trump is a sales man by talent, and he is selling them a bunch of BS. He promised a middle class tax break, but benefited the elite. He promised a deal with N. Korea, and they’ve taken him for a fool. He started a war with China, but hasn’t achieved fair trade. He promised great health care, but hasn’t done a thing, except work hard to take away the healthcare of millions of Americans. He is not honest and doesn’t have any integrity, so in the long run, Trump with increase the distrust of Americans in American governmental institutions.

  154. BrianD says:

    No MLD, you didn’t say blacks or women shouldn’t have fought for the social gains they’ve fought for. But in context of what I said earlier (Trump and white heterosexual Christians and far-right pagans vs several groups who have reasons to resist them), your comments could easily be construed as you telling Greta Thunberg, Mexican immgrants and 50-year-old Wal-Mart employees to “suck it up”…and logically, that advice could have been conveyed to Dr. King and Ms. Steinem.

    And, telling someone to SUCK IT UP isn’t always the best advice, any more than making high school football players practice for 4 hours in the hot afternoon sun without water is the answer to making them a better team.

  155. Xenia says:

    Here’s something that some of you might find shocking: My husband and I are seriously discussing voting for Trump next November. Yep, that’s what I said. He’s a dreadful person but the Other Side is just so much worse, so very very very much worse.

    I have always ridiculed the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils but we have come to the conclusion that the Other Side is so demonically evil that there’s no comparison.

    I still think it would be best if Trump faded away and Pence became President. I do not like Donald Trump.

    But at this time in history, I believe the destruction that the election of any one of those Dem candidates would do to the country is worse than another few years of whackadoodle tweets.

    MLD, I actually did read your posts here and gave them serious thought, although I have been leaning in this direction for some time now.

    I am not a happy camper.

  156. BrianD says:

    MM,

    When I mentioned arms I did not intend to convey that everyone with a gun would start shooting with sufficient provocation. Well, I did, but I didn’t.

    I realize there are owners of weapons who know what they have and how to use them responsibly. I support their Second Amendment rights, and I support their right to use those weapons to defend themselves. If someone breaks into their homes and threatens them and/or their family, of course they’ll use a gun or whatever they have to defend themselves. That is sufficient and appropriate provocation.

    I do maintain, however, that there are those within the groups I mentioned whom, if they are sufficiently provoked, will respond by using those weapons in offensive and violent ways against somebody — the President, and those they perceive as representing him. If it’s Trump, it could be cops, the military, and all whites (especially white men, b/c The Donald is a white man). If it’s Bernie, or Warren, or Biden, it could be anything labeled as liberal and socialist, including people, establishments and organizations. I may not sound politically correct, but if there’s violence, political correctness and logic will go out the window. Kill or be killed. Hide and hope the bastards don’t find you or settle for taking your 70-inch 4K TV and your Xbox.

    Such violence may not be in every single county in every single state; some cities may be urban war zones for a time, other cities untouched. And there will be trained professionals among their ranks. The National Guard may need help from the military to win the “civil war”, but there will be a heavy cost — not so much in dollars, but in lives.

    It’s not too late to prevent this, but that’s where we’re headed, unless our leaders step up and model for the public how to be civil — and the public is willing to go along with it. I have less faith in a public that’s hungry for the spectacle of reality TV and has thrown away the ability to be civil and respectful to their fellow human. I struggle with this myself.

    I haven’t done the research (yet) that informs me of the real economic costs of climate change; I’ve been too busy trying to properly educate myself so I understand the basics of the issue. I will do more research before I agree or disagree with your take on the economy. I will say that if and when Chicago reaches the same daily temperature as that of Jacobabad or Kuwait City, the economy will matter less than the issue of mere survival.

    The good news is that there seems to be time to make some changes. Again, I don’t want our descendants to label us with the vilest of profanities because we were too pragmatic or too much in denial to address the issue.

    https://time.com/longform/jacobabad-extreme-heat/

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/aug/18/kuwait-city-hottest-place-earth-climate-change-gulf-oil-temperatures

    https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-48947573

    Jean,

    Trump is, in some ways, just another politician, telling people what they want to hear and lying his butt off when he opens his mouth. Some people will see through him, once something happens that removes the mirage that makes them think He Is A Very Stable Genius And A Great Leader. Maybe it will happen when he does some batsh*t thing that puts the nation in crisis and really puts the hurt on his base where they’ll feel it the most.

  157. Hillbilly NonDenom (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    Xenia: you are not alone.

    BrianD: dude…chill.

  158. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    BrianD, this must be a generational thing. All I am saying is that we have all gone through the “life stinks”, “the world is not fair”, “we are doomed” – and every generation has had to deal with it – some have even succeeded better than others – some have had to eat the big one.
    I wouldn’t tell Greta or anyone to stop trying to overcome. I am telling you to get busy.
    You may not have the same wars or race issues or climate scares my generation had – but problems are problems – this is the nature of life itself.
    So what did you do today to make the world a better place…or are you just leaving it up to Greta?

  159. BrianD says:

    HNDFKAJF, I’ve said my peace. In another context, I might double down and go until I’m removed from the venue (or banned from the blog), but there’s a time and place for everything. My clock’s run out: I’m done with the topic, and I may in fact be done with this blog.

    Having been here in some context since 2005, I am familar with the dozens of people who swore they would never come back and did, and I probably will be among them. But it’s clear to me I’ve diverged in many ways from the rank and file on this blog, like you and MLD, and I don’t belong here, especially when I challenge the conventional thinking re: Trump and the evangelical right, and show you a taste of what you may face when presenting your ideas to a Mexican immigrant who’s compared to a criminal simply because they may be from the cartel, or a 16-year-old kid who has boy parts but feels and thinks in every way like a woman, or a mother who works for 10 bucks an hour 30 hours a week at Wally World, tips for 10 more hours at Waffle House, and 7.50 an hour for 30 more hours a week at the 7-Eleven in the Hood, goes to her home in a bad neighborhood, spends the last of energy trying to corral two wild latchkey kids without any healthcare and has to SUCK IT UP because she has no choice.

    I’m done. Go tell yourselves how great 2033 will be when Tucker Carlson continues the Great White Christian Republican Dynasty and he crows about how great the skiing will be in Montana and how he’s going to drop the Tsar Donald 200-megaton bomb on the Alaskan Glacier to get to the oil. Also, how Teslas suck and good ol’ Bill Johnson got it right with brainwashing the gay kids and raising the dead ones.

    –30–

  160. Jean says:

    BrianD,

    “But it’s clear to me I’ve diverged in many ways from the rank and file on this blog, like you and MLD, and I don’t belong here, especially when I challenge the conventional thinking re: Trump and the evangelical right,”

    No you haven’t. Please stay! Seriously!

  161. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    BrianD, you have completely zoned out and in your own little pity party miss the point. Do something.
    My generation lost 50,000 contemporaries in the Viet Nam war – we didn’t sit back – we protested, we closed down most universities in May of 1970 after Kent State. In 1968, we had raised such a turmoil that LBJ bowed out of the Presidential race.
    As I said, Earth Day was instituted back then. This was a very activist, anti government, anti establishment time. I spent some time with both the SDS and the Weathermen which had founding leaders at my school (I backed out as the violence rose – but the cause was good.)

    I was a sociology major and I used to set up displays in the free speech areas with boxes jammed full of cockroaches and preached (really it was just yelling at people) about overpopulation.

    All this AND we had the best music in history.

  162. Jean says:

    Xenia,

    Please don’t buy in to the right wing propaganda. Even if certain Democrat candidates want to take us in the direction of a Germany, Norway or Sweden, so? These are compassionate countries that care about each other. I work daily with Europeans. They’re neither the devil nor in slavery.

    Christians have lost the sense of community. Human beings are created for community. Community is the objective in front of the command to love your neighbor.

  163. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Democrat candidates want to take us in the direction of a Germany, Norway or Sweden,”

    Such nonsense. They want to take us in the direction of Sodom and Gomorrah – they want it to be socially unacceptable to tell your teenage son he can’t cut off his penis or your teenage daughter she cannot chop off her breasts.
    They want to take us down the road (further) to an endless numbers of abortions – they want to remove any modesty or privacy allowed by a girls restroom or locker room. They want to take us in the direction where there is no distinction between dudes and girls in female sports.

    Do I need to go on? Do you think a single Dem candidate would stand up on the political stump and say, “we must end this craziness! “? Not a chance.

    Perhaps what you meant is that they want to lead us in the direction of Amsterdam.

  164. Jean says:

    We will have no conversation until you repent of your lies from yesterday. If you can’t tell the truth, it’s pointless.

  165. Xenia says:

    They want to take us in the direction of Sodom and Gomorrah<<<

    Yes, this is it exactly. I can't pretend it isn't the case any more just because I can't stand Donald Trump. A few weeks ago I took a good hard look at some of the anti-Trump people that I was siding with and I realized I couldn't do it anymore. There are decent people who want Trump removed from the White House and I am among them, in favor of the less objectionable Pence. But if he endures until next November, I prefer him to *any* of the Dems. I live in a state that will go for whoever the Dem candidate is so it's rather a moot point for us but I will not even passively support baby-killers and supporters of sexual perversion anymore. These Dems hate Christ and Christianity and they hate me. They hate you too, Jean, but they need you- for the time-being, at least.

    However, I am not going to rail against anti-Trump people, as I completely understand this POV, being as it was my own for the past three years and really, still is. But the Left have over-played their hand. Any good ideas they may have had have been obliterated by their enthusiastic and prideful championing of wickedness.

  166. Michael says:

    I find all of this disturbing and fascinating… like a bad car wreck.
    Morality is limited to sexual issues while we commit crimes against humanity on the border.
    Sexual issues take precedent over human needs for health care and affordable housing.
    There is no moral high ground on either side.
    The church should be speaking truth to power on all these matters on both sides of the divide…but she is a whore for power as well.
    I fear the great experiment has failed and taken us down with it.

  167. MM says:

    BrianD

    I don’t get why you are so fed up?

    Personally I find your challenges to the others a worthy read, so basically keep writing.

    I think what changed for me over the years is I discovered many, I’m probably have been one of these, on the internet just want to tell everybody how wrong they are. I have personally found part of the enjoyment is just in the exchange and seeing how others view things. Often they are in sync with and other times not so much. What really matters is supporting people like Michael in their passion and getting the word out to others.

    I did seem to touch on a nerve about voting for people who put us in BK and I hope people understood it was NOT meant to endorse Republicans over Democrats. As was pointed out the ability to spend money one doesn’t have is not limited to just one party.

    BrianD

    Hang in there!
    Ya do good!

  168. Jean says:

    Xenia,

    When someone references Sodom and Gomorrah, they are speaking of immorality or specifically sexual immortality. Do you really think that Trump is more moral or advocates for morality more than the Democrats? He is tearing our country apart from his immortality. He doesn’t even attempt to be a moral person, much less a moral president.

  169. Michael says:

    BrianD has to stay…he’s the one who set up my Twitter account way back in the day… 🙂

  170. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I appreciate what you’ve written today.
    I could never vote for Trump…but nor can I support any of the alternatives.
    This is the quandary for many…

  171. Xenia says:

    . He doesn’t even attempt to be a moral person, much less a moral president.<<<

    Yes, I agree with this. That's what kept me in the anti-Trump camp for so long.

  172. MM says:

    “ In 1968, we had raised such a turmoil that LBJ bowed out of the Presidential race.”

    I think I read on Wikipedia you, MLD, were the reason LBJ did not run for another term.

    🙂

  173. Xenia says:

    By the way, I am not planning on trying to win anyone over to my new way of thinking about the election. I have sympathy for all Americans who are trying to do the right thing. My only advice is for everyone to follow their own consciences and not try to be anyone else’s Holy Spirit. We all have things that matter to us.

  174. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, the difference is that Trump’s immorality, borishness and any other disgusting feature is limited to himself.
    What the DEMS want to do is legislate immorality into every fiber of our nation.

    Border issues, housing, healthcare etc are policy issues that politicians claim as moral issues to get votes.
    Although you think you have clarity on truth (which you don’t) I gave a much more equitable plan for healthcare, replacing the failed Obama care, and fully paying for it upfront – by cutting our obscene and immoral defense budget by 1/3rd and giving it for healthcare.
    But since you call me a liar, I guess there is no talking sense to you.

    Besides, I can’t believe you have your Christmas decorations up during Advent.

  175. Jean says:

    BrianD

    “Maybe it will happen when he does some batsh*t thing that puts the nation in crisis and really puts the hurt on his base where they’ll feel it the most.”

    He came close with his management of China trade tariffs, but has managed to buy off the farmers with free cash, who are among is base. It’s amazing how he’s been able to run the executive branch like a crime syndicate. Remarkably, the Senate GOP are not willing to exercise any legislative branch independence nor oversight.

  176. Michael says:

    Franklin Graham is a lying cur.
    From Billy Graham’s grandson on Twitter;

    “I’ll never forget that day in 2016 when my grandfather, @billygraham shrugged off the symptoms of Parkinson’s and hydrocephalus, got up out of bed for the first time in a year, drove down to the polling station, and cast his vote. What a glorious memory!”

    Well done..

  177. Michael says:

    Franklin Graham is a lying cur.
    From Billy Grahams granddaughter:

    “In 2018, my sweet 99 year-old grandfather went Home. For years before that (including during the 2016 election), he was bedridden and suffering from hydrocephalus. Our visits consisted of quietly sitting with him holding his hand while he lay in bed. On the occasion I would find him awake, he would smile, say hello, squeeze my hand, and always tell me he loved me before falling back into a peaceful sleep.

    I am aware that others have spoken about my grandfather and some have even spoken for him. I believe strongly that my grandfather’s ministry that spanned decades, along with his character and actions speak for themselves. I believe that assigning feelings to a man who is not here to agree or disagree with those assignments is dangerous.

    I am asking that his legacy stand for itself. I am asking that the men and women who have revered and respected my grandfather and his ministry over the years, look at his life. Do the words and actions of Billy Graham’s life align with those of the current president?

    I believe it is dishonoring to speak on my grandfather’s behalf to justify and legitimize my own political stance. What you will see from me is a continual pointing of people to his words and his ministry when he graced this earth. I will also continue to point people to the words and ministry of the King of Kings when He graced this earth and beyond.”

  178. Xenia says:

    Probably someone got a hold of Billy’s mail-in ballot and voted for Trump for him, which is elder abuse, IMO, unless he expressly requested it.

  179. Michael says:

    I asked how in the world he could have voted for anybody…just like I wondered how he “wrote” his last book.
    Someone manipulated and abused an old mans trust…and we know who that someone is…

  180. Hillbilly NonDenom (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    Perhaps the same way that Stephan Hawking could “write” books or vote in elections?

    The logical person who isn’t looking to tear down a fellow brother would note that Franklin would know who his father voted for if he had to fill out the vote with his father’s choice.

    You libel is showing.

  181. Michael says:

    HNDJF,

    Your lack of reading comprehension is showing.
    It was physically impossible for Billy Graham to either vote or write a book in his condition.
    That’s why the rest of the family has spoken up.
    I’ve been detailing Franklin Graham’s garbage long before Trump…since 2004.
    He’s an opportunist par excellence…and that’s all he is.

  182. Hillbilly NonDenom (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    Michael,

    To coin a phrase: “You have chosen your explanations for such, I reject your explanations.”

    There’s nothing in the statements you’ve quoted that say he could not physically vote (“he would smile, say hello, squeeze my hand, and always tell me he loved me”). He still had the ability to make his choices known, and it is possible to vote by absentee ballot.

    Your behavior is to plant seeds of doubt, not unlike that of the politicians you’ve been lambasting. Stop being a tool of Satan.

    You may not like Franklin Graham’s politics or theology. His ministry efforts have likely brought more people to Christ than you and all of your regulars combined.

    Ironically, that statement is likely true of Bob Coy, the Rozelles, and a lot of other folks you clearly hate.

    It’s a mystery that He uses any of us.

  183. Michael says:

    JF,

    Your time here has ended.
    What I hate is corruption and abuse that besmirches the name of Christ and abuses those who come to Him seeking shelter.
    The damage done by men like Graham, Coy, and the Rozells echoes for generations.
    We’re losing generations of people as a result.
    I have friends across theological and political lines…your kind has always objected to my ecumenicism as much as anything else.
    Yours is the faith of pragmatism…holiness and faithfulness are measured in numbers.
    I reject those measures and believe that character and true holiness matters whether the numbers are there or not.
    Most of the “great men of God” I’ve known were known to very few.
    However, you only get to play the “tool of Satan” card once…and you threw your card on the table.
    Move on.

  184. Michael says:

    So…this was a very painful thread.
    I feel like (almost all) of the folks involved are friends of a sort, yet opposing passions have run high.
    However, it’s probably one of the most honest discussions you’ll find anywhere about the current state of the American Christian psyche.
    I’m not smart enough to write well about my conclusions from it all, but my biggest takeaway is that most of us fear losing the umbrella of Christendom that once covered us…the unspoken rules of life and morality and virtue that we took for granted.
    My other takeaway is that the umbrella will close as my generation dies and a whole new challenge to evangelize the country will have to happen.
    It will happen, I believe, because people will find that for all it’s faults, Christendom was the glue that held society together whether we truly believed in Christ or not…

  185. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael,

    About this piece…it is rare that, despite some heated exchanges, and a few off comments, that for the most part, people were COMMUNICATING, not just shouting past each other, which is pretty much all over the net.

  186. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael, sorry I misread and misunderstood the first part of your comment. I do think that this site has more conversation than shouting past each other, but this has been painful to read at times.

  187. Michael says:

    Dan,

    Now that we’re on the other side of it, I think you’re right.
    Unfortunately, I also don’t see any way forward on theses issues…were going to have to live with this division…

  188. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is interesting. I do not feel spiritually divided from anyone here over politics. We may differ, we may loudly differ – we may even call each other names used only in a political context —- but spiritually divided? Not a chance.

    Now, I may have some spiritual difficulties with brothers / sisters in the PNW as my Cardinals come in to town to pluck the Seahawks. 🙂

  189. Kevin H says:

    I’m sorry I haven’t been able to keep up with comments here the past couple days. After just skimming the past 100 comments or so, let me just give a few quick thoughts:

    I think the discussion here has been a mixed bag. Some being good and civil and enlightening, with other being bad and unecessarily argumentative and accusatory and painful. Despite the bad, we actually do better here than most places on the internet.

    Michael: Despite us doing better than most places, the bad is destructive and painful enough and that’s why I’ve kept most of my writings to my own Facebook page. I’m sorry for the hurt that has been brought here.

    BrianD: Please don’t go. Despite the antagonism you may experience here from a few, you are appreciated by many more.

  190. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    As much as these threads pain me (and they do) they’re necessary.
    The only way we can get better at anything is to practice…

  191. Duane Arnold says:

    Michael

    Looked at the Christian Post link… brought to mind Casablanca… “All the usual suspects…”

    Rex Reed called it “Christianity Yesterday”, not knowing that was the name given to it by the editors at Christian Century! Irony has no bounds…

  192. Hillbilly Nondenom (FKA JesusFreak) says:

    Yes, Michael, I get it. Take your toys and go home when someone points out that your behavior is as bad as those you tear down. What you really don’t like is that someone has the courage to call out that your behavior is divisive to the body while being wrapped up in sanctimony. That is the tool of Satan. (Cards down twice). It’s the same thing you do to others, but can’t see it in yourself.

    You say you have friends on both sides of the aisle, but I’ve dealt with nothing but condescension from you.

    You claim I am all about numbers, yet know next to nothing about me. You claim I object to your ecumenicism, but I have yet to see it. The definition there is “the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity.” I don’t see unity from you. Just division.

    Ban me if you want. Delete my posts. I wasn’t planning on going anywhere or playing on sympathy (ala BrianD). Are you shunning me or excommunicating?

  193. Michael says:

    This isn’t a church.
    You’ve had your say.
    You’re banned.

  194. Em says:

    I find this an interesting read even though many strongly held conclusions do escape my understanding…..

  195. bob1 says:

    It’s widely known in Xn circles that most bestselling Xn books aren’t even
    written by the author on the jacket cover. I’m sure this was also the case
    with Dr. Graham, especially given his frailties near the end of his earthly
    life…

  196. Steve says:

    I have to agree with Jean on the national debt. It’s concerning that neither side has any intentions or actions in balancing the budget. This attitude could bankrupt our country and do more harm than imaginable.

  197. Jean says:

    Steve,

    One person responded to me with, “I have to say his policies have done wonders for my net worth.”

    That is exactly what Trump wants. I would say the same thing. But as someone near retirement, his policies of low interest rates also have destroyed safe sources of income for retirees, forcing many of us into riskier investments in order to derive an income.

    But the larger picture for me is I have two sons, 30 and 33. They will have to pay for my generational theft. They will have to suffer without the biodiversity that we destroyed. They will eat the genetically modified grains and farm raised fish, while I grew up with wild salmon, and Dungeness Crab. I wish would could have passed my children and grandchildren a cleaner, healthier planet than I inherited, but Trump and the capitalists of our country done give a rip about anyone but themselves.

  198. Michael says:

    JF,
    This is really simple.
    This is my blog and has been for 18 years.
    There have been many come and go and a few banned.
    Sometimes people like yourself come along who decide that opposing me at every turn is righteous.
    Like you, they never use their real names.
    In any case, it does no one any good to have the constant conflict.
    You have had your (very critical) say and now it’s time for both of us to be about better things.

  199. bob1 says:

    Jean,

    I share your sentiments exactly. I have 2 sons close to the ages of your two. I
    shudder to think about the world they’ll inhabit. No one seems to want to
    think longer term than last week. It’s killing us, figuratively and literally.

  200. Steve says:

    Jean, I have a 3 year old daughter so my concerns are similar to yours about the future. I’m not convinced about all the environment stuff though. Yes, we should leave a clean environment to our kids but this issue could turn into the biggest controlling power grab of all time based on proven doom and gloom fear mongering like AOC end of the world in 12 years politics. As MLD said, my personal finances couldn’t be better under Trump however it’s really hard to say about the long term future. I like what Trump is doing with the judges and this may be enough for me to keep voting for him.

  201. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, I didn’t make the comment about finances. My wife and I live soley on our social security – no pensions, 401ks etc.
    But we have no bills so we survive.

  202. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Not having grown up as an elitist like Jean on wild salmon and Dungeness crab, the best my parents could do was Mrs. Paul fish sticks and gefilte fish. 🙂

  203. Jean says:

    Steve,

    Regarding climate change,

    We can measure the production of CO2 and other greenhouse gases;
    We can measure the increase of greenhouse gases as a percentage of the atmosphere.
    That percentage is increasing, that is, the amount of greenhouse gases is increasing as a percentage of the overall atmosphere.

    I acknowledge that there are questions, such as, how fast are greenhouse gases growing as a percentage of the atmosphere, and what is the impact on climate of that growth in greenhouse gases which are introduced by human beings.

    I just don’t see that ignoring what we’re doing and doing nothing is a responsible position, just because I can’t prove a catastrophic event in a time certain. I feel a responsibility to my children and grandchildren not to bequeath them a dying planet. I reject the prevailing argument that economic progress and the environment (and the health of people) are a dichotomy.

    There is 100% verifiable evidence that (1) human beings are producing green house gases, and (2) at increasing rates, and (3) those gases are going into the atmosphere, and (4) they are changing the atmosphere.

    The atmosphere is what shields, but also what warms our planet. God created our planet and green house gases, which are needed to warm the planet, but in a balance that allows life to flourish. We are changing the makeup of the atmosphere. Therefore, it logically follows that we are impacting the climate.

    We are messing with God’s creation, and I fear ignoring the early signs that one can only defy God’s law (in this case His natural law) so long, because the law judges and condemns. The signs, are being given, the little judgments; like when God let a few of the tribal lands be overtaken, before eventually judging the Northern Kingdom, but ultimately Judah too. God gives the signs, but man doesn’t repent. He says, peace, peace.

    I would like to see Christians be advocates for God’s creation, for the benefit of God’s creatures, first and foremost His image bearers. We are the one’s God has placed here to take care of His creation. Can we serve Him while treating our home, which He has given us, like a landfill, the oceans like a toilet?

  204. Steve says:

    Jean,. Some of the environmental effects are self correcting. For instance we all know the ozone layer protects us from harmful solar radiation. How is ozone created? It’s created from radiation of the sun and oxygen. So guess what, when the the ozone layer thins and allows more radiation to hit our atmosphere more ozone is created that again protects us in a self protecting cycle. Just one example of the sustaining and self correcting nature of the world God created. Not buying the hype of the new green deal that will help anything yet will cost Americans 93 trillion in ten years and probably will ban cows inturn banning dairy and meat products because of the methane they produce and will be the biggest and most corrupt power grab of all time that is even if you could get China the largest culprit to even get on board with the plan.

  205. Jean says:

    Well, Steve, you have revealed yourself well in your 7:03 am. If “self correcting” is your dream answer to greenhouse gas emissions, keep telling yourself and your children that.

  206. Michael says:

    Salmon and crab were hardly elitist foods when I was growing up.
    We caught fresh salmon out of the Rogue River every year and trapped Dungeness with crab pots on the Oregon Coast.
    Both species have very diminished runs now…

  207. Steve says:

    Jean,. Unless you want to go back to pre-industrial revolution and completely change our way of life to maybe save a tad pole or crab in some bog in CA than your free to cheer on the new green deal that will cost every single household in America over a half million dollars that will have dubious results. But I love your idealism.

  208. Jean says:

    Michael is correct. Growing up, I never heard of farm raised salmon. It was all wild caught. Further, crab were so plentiful in the SF Bay, that they could be a nuisance when fishing.

    Steve, when you say stuff like at 7:33 am, you sound brainwashed. In your world, is the choice between denial and do nothing, on the one hand, and destroying the American way of life on the other hand, the only two choices?

  209. Steve says:

    Jean, brainwashed? You are the one that initially brought up the national debt which I happily agreed with you on. The estimates to institute the new green deal are staggering yet you seem happy to pay for this to save some creatures that we eat for food. But what about the cows? As I said, I love your idealism and i wish we could save every micoirganism on the planet but I do have some pragmatism and prioritization.

  210. Jean says:

    Steve,
    I never brought up “the new green deal,” and I have no idea what’s in it. This is what I regret about modern discourse. Whenever a contested topic comes up, people try to delegitimize the other side by attributing to them the most extreme position, even when the other side never took the extreme. This is why our country can’t get anywhere on a whole host of issues.

  211. Michael says:

    ” Whenever a contested topic comes up, people try to delegitimize the other side by attributing to them the most extreme position, even when the other side never took the extreme. This is why our country can’t get anywhere on a whole host of issues.”

    Amen and amen…I’m so weary of this same thing in the battle for just and compassionate immigration reform.
    They always start screaming about “open borders”… when I have yet to meet my first advocate for reform that also advocates “open borders”.
    I’m sure they’re out there but it’s a fringe group…

  212. Steve says:

    Jean, you didn’t mention green deal. That’s true and I never said I wanted to do nothing. That was your broad push of my politics.

  213. Eli says:

    Trump 2020. It’s going to be another grand term!

  214. Eli says:

    I hear they will be serving non-farmed salmon and crab at the TRUMP inaugural. Let us feast!

  215. Michael says:

    Eli,

    You’re adding nothing to the conversation…so you’re done now.

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