Busting Brodersen: Part 2

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80 Responses

  1. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Wouldn’t it be cool if we could fact check like CNN? To go back through the past 10 yrs Chuck sermons and see if they were actually all doom and gloom – and as Brodersen said, he had to come long once a month and try to mitigate what was said by Chuck the previous 3 weeks?

  2. BrianD says:

    Well said.

  3. Michael says:

    Thank you, BrianD…good to see you, old friend.

  4. ( |o )====::: says:

    Great reporting and analysis Michael.

  5. John 20:29 says:

    it would be great if we could love the people we love without the requirement that they be infallible… at least where our church leadership is concerned… truth isn’t owned by any one person and we need to give ourselves permission to hear and then to apply/pray for discernment … or so it seems to me this morning

  6. Pastor Char-broiled says:

    Brian is a washed up aging wannabe, he married into the CC Kingdom and struggles daily to be relevant…

    If not for his wife, he would be working at Walmart or Costco!

  7. Nonnie says:

    That was great! For pity sakes, preach the GOOD NEWS!! Jesus is Victor, Jesus saves, and the world needs to hear this wonderful message. Equip the saints for good works to show forth His glory.

    Sadly, I’ve heard at least 1 or 2 verse by verse OT messages with not one direct mention of the Good News OR Jesus Christ. It was a message of law, as that was the verse by verse text.
    Hubby and I came home shaking our heads, that Jesus was not mentioned in the message. Yes, the name of Jesus was lifted during the song time and prayer time in the service, but not in the message.

    I would hope that in every Christian church gathering anyone attends they will hear the good news that Christ has come, Christ is risen, and Christ will come again. In Him alone is salvation. Jesus is Lord.

    I’m really glad Brian is encouraging other pastors this way.

  8. dusty says:

    Hi Brian D! Hope you are well

  9. Nosey says:

    This clip from the PC about not preaching about the rapture is NOT the driving force behind a conference’s location move disclosed through the letter written to the CC fellowship of churches.. the ability to move the international conferences location and topics is the planning committee’s right. when those in attendance unanimously agree on this decision (assuming so) why is this an issue? cant they all agree on the topic to reaffirm values?

    Why does it have to done in California? Done at a CCCM property? With all the CC people with the CC movement reaches across the country. Why is moving make a wave in the ocean. Cant they just surf on over to FL. This action would seem to have been in the planning for quit awhile and isn’t a reactionary response to what Brian does or doesnt do.

    more facts finding is needed before one assume anyone is busting Brian?

  10. Michael says:

    Nosey,

    My fact finding record stands for itself.
    I stand by every word I’ve written the last two days.

  11. Michael says:

    Furthermore, my name is on everything I write,unlike some commenters.

    The “planning committee” traditionally meets in January to plan a July conference in Costa Mesa.
    Since the split (that so many deny) that conference still plans it’s conference then and others do their own conferences.
    This was no “official” planning committee, it was a power grab led by traditionalists who want Brodersen gone or minimized as much as possible.
    The inference that the reader of that letter was to take away is that it will be an “official”conference representing the Calvary Chapel movement.

    If you’re going to challenge me, I suggest you do some fact checking of your own and bring something other than the weak sauce you delivered here.

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I hope everyone realizes that CC deserves all of the turmoil and grief that they get. The whole organization treasures its own independence far above any kind of unity or anything resembling working together.

    They need to set up some system to have a vote and live with the vote – but as I said, CC pastors themselves are their own strongman and are singular minded, and will not give an inch by giving anyone else in the organization a vote. (I am talking from the ground up – forget about the leadership.)

    In the LCMS when Gerald Kieschnick was President of the Synod, he took the organization in a direction that tried to become more like a Calvary Chapel as far as worship style. Many folks were upset and in the next convention he was voted out and many new policies set in place to go back to the more biblical and traditional worship styles.

    The point is, no matter home upset folks in the CC get, they is no mechanism set in place to offer remedies – other than old cronies figuring out how to have a blood less clue.

    All the hurt caused and received is deserved. So before deciding traditionalists vs the new wave, they first must be willing to give up individual authority … ain’t gonna happen.

  13. Michael says:

    MLD,

    While i agree with much you say in that comment,the greater problem is that inside CC the pastors give up authority to these self appointed leaders way too easily.

    This is a bloodless coup…but Brodersen may have just fired back…stay tuned.

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    should I turn on Pastors Perspective to hear a response?

  15. Michael says:

    MLD,

    No…more back alley politics going on.
    I have much more verification to do…

  16. David H says:

    I’m so glad I got my family away from the local CC. It’s been a long hard road, but it seems we are all three much happier, and safer where we worship now.

  17. Stephen says:

    “This is a fact…read slowly…nobody has protected the legacy of Chuck Smith more than Brodersen, because he could do more damage to it than anyone else..”

    Extremely well put.

  18. Jeff Sheckstein says:

    Amen Stephen. I have first hand knowledge of that fact

  19. Muff Potter says:

    MLD @ # 13 :

    This has always been the greatest strength of a strong central government in church polity vs. loose articles of confederation. It prevents strongmen from taking over pulpits, setting up shop, and imposing their own dictatorial “visions” over pliant congregations.

  20. Pastor Char-broiled says:

    “This is a fact…read slowly…nobody has protected the legacy of Chuck Smith more than Brodersen, because he could do more damage to it than anyone else..”

    Really, and risk his a$$ with the old guard at CCCM and the other elite cardinals. It will take a few years but believe me, nothing will remain of Chuck Smith at CC except for the memories! Brian couldn’t wait till Chuck croaked, and he probably “assisted” him so he could go quickly in order to grab the mantle ASAP!

    As Chuck would say, “the wheels of justice turn exceedingly slow”, Perhaps so does the knife your “friend” stabs you in the back with…

  21. Jess says:

    I read “the letter” back in the other thread, and it felt to me like cords being bound around me again, it caused me to shiver in fear. I can’t go back to Chuck Smith. I also can’t join up with Brian Brodersen. I’ll avoid both. 🙂

  22. BrianD says:

    Hi everyone.

  23. Michael says:

    How are things going, BrianD?

  24. Kevin H says:

    Hey, BrianD. Always good to see when you pop in.

  25. The Least of These says:

    It’s been a very long time since I came here. Years in fact. I have spent countless hours trying to find healing from the long trail of heartbreak, rejection, pain, abandonment, and misuse I experienced for decades inside the halls of CC. I know all the dirt. All the players. All the stories and inside shenanigans. I stared at the brink of the abyss and after a long, arduous, tear filled journey of extraction I now have found a small semblance of honesty in a little no name fellowship of people who seem to like me and who make it impossible for me to dislike them. I will never be ok. I will never trust anyone in church or ministry ever again. But I will love who I can and accept the aloneness that comes with where I am.

    These guys, the Poconos 15, (and the Court jesters whose names are not written on the 6 point stone tablet) they have been waiting, watching, hoping, praying, scheming, and quietly taking notes until they could find the right moment to say ‘We are Us ‘and we are going to deal with BB and CB. Brian is actually a good man. And there isn’t any real dirt on the guy. He doesn’t sleep around, he is pretty frugal, he has integrity- I’ll vouch for that any day of the week. There is no smoking gun on him. He just isn’t who they wanted. He got the gig cause he married into the “La Costa Nostra Mesa” family where Chuck was the don. Cheryl will do no harm. She will take on Kay’s role cause it’s her rightful place, albeit expanding it somewhat to take the mic occasionally on a Sunday morning. But that’s okay cause her daddy also had that same mic. It’s her destiny. Chuck made promises and B held him to it. Funny thing is Chuck made those same promises to others who also made plays for the prized pulpit. But when it comes to CC nepotism wins out every time.

    And now a new Don shows up and he and the other 14 appointed anointed have made their stance. Instead of taking a hard look at a system that harbors habitual adulterers, fame seekers, money grabbers, and faux intellectuals skipping off to Russia while throwing stones at Calvinists, they decide to draw the eschatological line in the sand regarding Brian’s interpretation of Chuck’s final few years. The reality? Twelve years ago they printed 10 thousand bulletins. By the time of Chuck’s passing that had fallen by at least 50%. The youth ran to local churches who had a better handle on their cultural needs. Brian is right… the pews glowed white and the need to do the “Calvary squeeze” ceased to exist. But they did it anyway in some sort of odd ritual to assert the prominence they still felt they had. The camera angles got clever in attempt to hide the truth of empty chairs. When Chuck preached end times they filled the chairs for a night, but as for the weekly attendance it was in a free fall. Chuck indeed struggled with the realities of his impending demise which included the festering sore of his prognostications regarding Christ’s return over the years that were again and again and again proven woefully wrong. Chuck was wrong… On a lot of things. God bless him.

    The memory of Chuck and his words have calcified under an increasing need to paint him and his memory in a papal light. So odd to me since they have always groaned about the Catholic church (and once at the Episcopal church I observed a funeral where Calvary pastors refused to take communion… I was flummoxed… did we not all serve the same God? Could you not put that crap down long enough to bury someone’s baby? but I digress….) The point here is the Poconos 15 and their underlings gave their lives away laboring in a system that extorted them with the understanding that one day they too would have the ultimate authority to extort those under them as benevolent dictators. And now they are at the top of that food chain, having waited years to be in the Senior spot of Moses Management. This is the place where all good things happen to those who have the power and darn it if the son in law (married to the daughter who was so beloved by her daddy that her siblings simmered jealousy towards her) didn’t get in the way. And he lacked a certain something that the Poconos 15 look for to justify their existence. He did not possess a charisma and charm and cunning like Chuck. So now it’s time to get even and take what is theirs and leave to BB and CB what they must (assets, TWFT, etc.) The south will rise again!!!! Let’s send a letter… the tribe has spoken.

    This is sad. Very, very sad. But it didn’t have to be this way. Chuck blew it. Months before his death when Chuck was hit with a barrage of questions at yet one more Senior Pastor’s conference, Brian stood up and said it would be him who would take the pulpit once Chuck had gone to be with the Lord. Chuck then uncomfortably retorted that it would be Jesus and no man who made the ultimate choice.

    So the Poconos boys, in the patriarchal power they so gleefully wield, signed their Declaration of Independence. And as I scout the names, searing memories and faces float through my mind. Ah yes… I know these guys. But they never knew me. They never really wanted to. And I take a closer look. For all the names on CCA’s Declaration of Independence one is missing.

    Jesus.

    I guess Chuck was wrong on that one too…

  26. ( |o )====::: says:

    The Last of These,
    I’m sad to say that those of us who found Calvary Chapel to become an oppressive place have similar stories and observations. You are not alone, and somehow you can take comfort in the fact that God’s presence and love are not limited to “the glory days” of the “Jesus People”, but that presence is transcendent beyond buildings branded with #TheDove. God’s presence is even beyond wherever tow or more are gathered in His Name because His goodness & love knows no containment.

    Glad you’ve found people who love you!

  27. Pastor Char-broiled says:

    The Least of These…

    Though I don’t agree with your discernment of all things BB and CB, I respect you sharing your heart and experiences as yet another wounded soul who has painfully passed through calvary chapel meat grinder of the Moses model hierarchy!

  28. John 20:29 says:

    G mentioned that our Lord has said that where two or three (or more) are gathered in His Name, He’s there also… perhaps, we need to back up a bit and think about what it means to be gathered in His Name?
    like light, itself, “Jesus” isn’t a label

  29. The Least of These says:

    @:::,thank you. Not sure they love me. I hope they do. The real damage is that the nail in my trust coffin has been firmly pounded in… but it’s a comforting thing to think they might. But I’m too damaged now to ever take the risk to find out. I will be a satellite now, circling the light of their earth, held now by a very thin gravitational pull and warm by a distant light, while I stand with one foot very close to the door… Oddly enough they seem to sense that and they have no problem with it. And so this is now church…

    @ Char-broiled, uh… discernment over all things BB and CB? I wouldn’t go that far. 😉 This is only my snapshot a the crash in the intersection of Calvary history. My camera lens has a unique perspective and I am not offering a unilateral voice of defense on all things in regards to BB and CB. That, my friend, is what got me in trouble in the first place. I didn’t play that game. Thank you for reading my words and for understanding how painful that meat grinder was…

  30. Jerod says:

    “I think you can preach the whole counsel of God without all 66 books”

    Do you agree with this?

  31. ( |o )====::: says:

    “I think you can preach the whole counsel of God without all 66 books”

    Do you agree with this?

    :: Jesus did a perfect job of it ::

  32. Jerod says:

    ( |o )====:::

    Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

    Luke 24:27

    I don’t think you are correct on that one.

  33. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    I hope you aren’t insinuating that Jesus did a verse by verse teaching of the OT…

    There is much of the OT in the New and it’s almost always reinterpreted by Jesus…who every bit of the OT points to.

    An understanding of the older covenants is good and useful…teaching through Numbers verse by verse…probably not so much.

  34. Jerod says:

    Michael

    No, no. That is not my beef with this whole thing. Isaiah 28 speaks, I think, to such a dependence on methodology. Jesus obviously taught topically and in this case did a survey or topical study on himself with the two men. He obviously thought it necessary to give them the whole counsel of God through Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy – those “brutal” books he taught to babes in Christ…

    But in this and every case of teaching, preaching, evangelizing Jesus, James, Paul et al taught exclusively from the OT. The whole counsel was given not from the new but from the old. It is a sad testament to the state of the church that we have come to such a point as to say we don’t need the words of Jesus, the LORD of hosts, spoken in the OT.

    Psalm 138:2b
    … for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

    As far as Calvary Distinctives and Chuck Smith, Chuck is dead and the Lord took him at his appointed time. It is sad that they seem to think that Calvary Heritage, DNA, Foundation is Calvary Distinctives and/or Chuck himself. That’s the feeling I got from that email. nothing about our sure foundation being Christ.

    Brian wants to move in a different direction of false doctrine, making a hagiography of the bible. That is his choice and his accountability with God. This is a perfect opportunity for Calvary to clean house of all the other issues that have crept into the Calvary denomination. But they are going to wait a year. And they are going to make a vacation out of it, but not too close to Christmas our Thanksgiving. Imo, and it is probably as good as only that, they should be fasting and praying in 3 months at some ghetto Calvary in a poorly heated mobile home without their wives. Their movement is watching the Holy Spirit depart from it. Apparentlyevery one of them is content to watch Him go. But my children and my friends will be scattered on the hills. It makes my blood boil.

  35. Jerod says:

    They could start by making sure the Moses model means primus inter pares, only.

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod, Jesus usually used the OT for the punch lines to his teaching.

    Jesus used the world as his reference for his teaching – “from the fig tree learn it’s lesson, …” you can find these throughout his teachings.

  37. Jerod says:

    The fig tree is a type for Israel, used throughout the OT.

    Also John 5:46
    46“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47“But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

    And Hebrews 10:7
    “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'”

  38. ( |o )====::: says:

    Jerod,

    ( |o )====:::

    Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

    Luke 24:27

    I don’t think you are correct on that one.

    Um, well, when Jesus did His explanation there weren’t 66 books in the scriptures.

  39. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    Brian preaches standard CC doctrine.
    He made a couple of great points…and as a preacher myself I couldn’t agree more.

    These accusations of false doctrine and the drama queen exhortations about the departure of the Spirit are nothing more than bearing false witness against a brother.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod,
    He also said, you have heard it said, but I say…

    Also, you check it out, most of the times Jesus actually quotes scripture is to tank his opposition – not to teach his disciples.

    So, to get the full counsel of God, your recommendation is to spend an equal time in Chronicles as you would suggest someone spend in John?

    As to your Hebrews 10 passage – I do agree that the whole OT is written about Jesus – anything else is just background noise.

  41. pstrmike says:

    Jerod,

    Brodersen is not going into false doctrine, that is ridiculous.

    “But they are going to wait a year. And they are going to make a vacation out of it, but not too close to Christmas our Thanksgiving. Imo, and it is probably as good as only that, they should be fasting and praying in 3 months at some ghetto Calvary in a poorly heated mobile home without their wives.”

    That to me is one of the big problems. I don’t know how wide spread that sentiment is, but I’ve heard a few (under five) that had said to me “this means I get to go to the beach in November”. There is no sense of conviction which betrays a self serving posture that is only interested in gleaning the comforts that their position is able to provide.

  42. Jerod says:

    Yes, he was speaking to the spirit of the law found in the OT.Usually a more stringent application ; calling one another “fool” or the equivalent is danger of hell fire. looking in lust, etc.

    Yes, Chronicles is just as inspired as Matthew, as Psalms, as numbers, as Genesis, as Revelation.

  43. Jerod says:

    Michael

    “These accusations of false doctrine and the drama queen exhortations about the departure of the Spirit are nothing more than bearing false witness against a brother.”

    With all due respect, says the one who admittedly revels in the disintegration of part of the body of Christ, wherein families are scattered and hardships endured. I don’t think you think you can see clearly to make that call about me.

  44. Michael says:

    pstrmike,

    It’s a flippant way to deny seeing what has been exposed…

  45. Jerod says:

    If you can’t see it yet, pstrmike, just wait. I don’t see how anyone couldn’t see it. The issue isn’t Chuck, it’s the word of God.

  46. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    If you would have read with comprehension you would understand that what I revel in is being vindicated by the truth that has now been affirmed.

    I say it again.

    You have born false witness against Brian Brodersen and you need to repent.

  47. Michael says:

    Nobody, (including Brodersen) is questioning the inspiration of any book of the Bible.

    I have the attention of the people God had given me for about an hour a week.
    I prefer to preach from the New Covenant and affirm them in the Gospel rather than dwell endlessly on types and shadows.

    Teaching Numbers and Leviticus verse by verse is more often endured than affirmed…

  48. Jerod says:

    Yes, it does feel good to be correct in one’s assumptions. You have your reward.

    I will repent when Brodersen says he cannot preach the whole counsel of God without all 66 books. But that’s not what he said is it? God says, and I agree, that he holds his word above his name. If you think you can do better than Jesus himself, have at it.

  49. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    Show me where Jesus taught verse by verse…
    This is one of the more inane discussions I’ve ever been a part of.

  50. Jerod says:

    If you had read with comprehension at the start, you would understand that that is not at all what I am arguing for. If it is inane it is due to your misconception of my argument, or you have failed to listen to Brodersen’s own words about the subject entire.

  51. Michael says:

    I listened to Brian…and he didn’t deny either the inspiration or worth of any book in the Bible.

    He did question what parts of the Scripture that he would devote his time to for the benefit of his congregation.

    My church draws far more of the counsel of God from Romans than from Numbers, from the Gospels than from Leviticus.

    That’s where I’m allocating my time…just as Brian is.

  52. Jerod says:

    What did he ask the other pastor about the whole counsel of God? What did he say about the ability to teach the whole counsel of God? I don’t think we should glaze over that.

    As to where you choose to spend the majority of your time, it is not where the Apostles spent theirs, though both are equally valid and inspired of God. But, when Paul said ALL scripture is inspired and profitable, he was speaking of the jewish canon, and possibly the Gospel of Mark.

  53. Michael says:

    Jerod,

    I’m well aware of what was being spoken of.
    No one ( again) is saying that any book is not inspired.
    The Apostles didn’t have the NT…which reinterprets much of the NT from what it was believed to mean to the original hearers.

    Look, you want to believe the worst about Brodersen.
    Have at it… but it’s no more than being an accuser of the brethren and damaging yourself while thinking yourself holy.

  54. Michael says:

    “When Paul attests that this is what he proclaimed to the believers in Ephesus, the Ephesian elders to whom he makes this bold asseveration know full well that he had managed this remarkable feat in only two and a half years.

    In other words, whatever else Paul did, he certainly did not manage to go through every verse of the Old Testament, line by line, with full-bore explanation. He simply did not have time.

    What he must mean is that he taught the burden of the whole of God’s revelation, the balance of things, leaving nothing out that was of primary importance, never ducking the hard bits, helping believers to grasp the whole counsel of God that they themselves would become better equipped to read their Bibles intelligently, comprehensively.

    It embraced;

    God’s purposes in the history of redemption (truths to be believed and a God to be worshiped),an unpacking of human origin, fall, redemption, and destiny (a worldview that shapes all human understanding and a Savior without whom there is no hope),
    the conduct expected of God’s people (commandments to be obeyed and wisdom to be pursued, both in our individual existence and in the community of the people of God), and
    the pledges of transforming power both in this life and in the life to come (promises to be trusted and hope to be anticipated).”

    Don Carson

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod – I am willing to push this – is there anything in the OT that a person needs to know to be saved?

    The OT was written to the Jews – it was not written to the Mongolians. So does a Mongolian need to hear in detail the covenant between God and the Jews who are addressed?

    Another question – even though the OT is inspired and I believe it is – is it still enforced today? What I mean is there anything that is enforced today because it is in the OT?

    I say no, so we may differ. 😉

  56. Xenia says:

    The OT Scriptures used by 1st century Christians (that would include St. Paul) was usually the Greek Septuagint version which contained the so-called Apocryphal books. So you verse-by-verse proponents…. Do you teach vs by vs using the same version of the Scriptures most commonly used by the Apostles and the Lord?

  57. Em ... again says:

    these words of Paul come to mind as i read here this morning:
    “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” everyone knows this passage, i believe

    IMV – some portions teach, some reprove, some direct us to righteousness… every single word that we have, by God’s grace and omnipotence, available to us today has a purpose, but not every word has the same purpose… even tho there is edification to be gained in every course of study… can we skip whole books and still grow in Christ, still find God’s redemption? i think we can skip quite a few, but every word is a living word to treasure which can and, hopefully, will nourish our souls over time – teaching verse by verse through Numbers to a congregation with the hope of spiritual growth makes no sense… occasionally using the book of Numbers when teaching is called for and can make a great deal of sense

    is there anyone who is a Believer who’d presume to edit and distill God’s word? i guess there may be… what a loss

    just sayin…

  58. Michael says:

    A congregation retains about 15% of what is delivered on any given Sunday…I have to distill things to the essence if growth is going to happen…

  59. Em ... again says:

    well… that’s not exactly what i meant when i used the word ‘distill’ or edit… 🙂
    what is the word i’m after that describes tossing out what doesn’t serve ones purpose – intentionally distorting the original meaning to suit ones purpose… like the politicians have been doing with their commercials lately…

  60. Steve Wright says:

    Since “the Septuagint” was not some single-bound volume but a collection of varied texts – some originally written in Greek, others translated into Greek, I choose to teach from the texts that Jesus and the Apostles and the early church saw (and quoted) as canonical. There is a reason the New Testament was written in Koine, and there is a reason the early apostles would quote from the Koine translations to their audience they were writing to in Koine (largely Gentile audience I would add – with even a large number of Hellenized Jews unable to handle the Hebrew)

    In so doing, I join with the vast majority of denominations within Christendom today excluding the Catholics who did not get around to canonizing these texts until The Council of Trent which was a direct response to the Protestant Reformation and the arguments of the reformers against their inclusion. Note even the need for a different term of separation – deuterocanonical Even in canonizing, they note a separation.

    A term I believe is also used by the Orthodox, who don’t even use the Hebrew texts as their primary source of Old Testament translation, choosing instead a Greek translation that in itself has wide aspects of variation (i.e. – there is not, contrary to belief, ONE Greek Septuagint as if the principles and issues of textual criticism of ancient docs magically does not apply to the LXX). If there is any other non Biblical, ancient author’s writings, Homer, Caesar, Pliny etc. whose original language used is SECONDARY in textual criticism studies I would love to hear about it. No, I think the Orthodox insistence on exalting a translation to this level is rather unique. Alexandria, Egypt and not Palestine becomes the geographical center for the Jewish canon? Hardly.

    And yes, even the King James Version once included the noncanonical Septuagint books. There is plenty of good material in there, at least of the history sort, and much like the didache later on has value for one desiring to be as learned as possible.

    But kudos indeed for making a rejection of texts God never inspired somehow a Calvary “verse by verse” thing, as if we somehow don’t have quite a legacy behind us in rejecting them, including Calvin and Luther and just about every church Father before Augustine (to some degree or another).

  61. Jerod says:

    MLD

    No, to the first. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. My faith didn’t come after a thorough exposition of the entire scriptures.

    This is not a salvific issue. I don’t doubt Brodersen’s salvation, or others. I doubt his ability to rightly divide the word of God which directly affects the ability of his congregants to do the same.

    To the second, yes, the entire thing is condemnation to those who are unsaved, as Jesus is the fulfillment of it.

    Mark12:28One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL,AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’31“The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”32The scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE ISONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM; 33AND TO LOVEHIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE’S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” If Jesus said it is still in effect, does that suffice? Btw, eating the meat of strangled animals, drinking blood, eating food sacrificed to idols are also repeated in the New testament.

    This is so important, the OT. that Paul repeats himself in 1 Cor. 10

    “1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

          6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. ”

    Never did I say line by line. Scripture says here and elsewhere – the whole counsel

    BB is going into false doctrine, which is a sanctification issue, not salvation issue. It is a steep slippery slope he is attempting to climb. I pray he stops.

  62. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod – I will go with your answer;
    “To the second, yes, the entire thing is condemnation to those who are unsaved, as Jesus is the fulfillment of it. ”

    As long as you assure me that what you do in fact mean is that Jesus has fulfilled them all. That there is nothing left to be fulfilled in a nation state of Israel or any future Temples – that Jesus has indeed fulfilled them all.

  63. Jerod says:

    Michael
    It’s hard to take your last comment without a grin.

    So far you have implied that I a “drama queen”, “inane”, and holier-than-thou. I might have left a couple out.

    Yet you admit your theological and doctrinal teachings consist of your preferences, basically.

    You refuse to answer directly and plainly a simple question.

    And you tell me to repent.

    I am a nobody with more sin than Michael can shake a stick at. I know this better than you. But standing up against someone with a lot of power making a hagiography and a “massage” out of God’s Word is not something I will repent for.

  64. Michael says:

    I don’t think I’ve ever failed to answer any question directly.

    It is inane and sinful as hell to do what you are doing to Brodersen…

  65. Jerod says:

    MLD, whether he returns in our lifetime or not, the point is that we have the blessed hope, and we offer it to others freely. You know this.

    The bema seat is going to be a big surprise for everybody

  66. Jerod says:

    I asked you to state for the sake of our argument what Brodersen said about the whole counsel of God. So yes, maybe you just didn’t see that.

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod that wasn’t my point. The point I was trying to figure out from you is the entire OT about Jesus and has been fulfilled in Jesus through his perfect life, death and resurrection – or is the OT also about other characters and their fulfillment comes later.

    Let me ask one think – do you have a favorite Brodersen message (MP3) that you would hold up as a smoking gun? I would like to listen.

  68. Michael says:

    Here’s Brian’s statement on this foolishness;

    “Perhaps some have read or heard that I have forsaken the faith and am discouraging pastors from teaching the Old Testament, Bible Prophecy and the Rapture of the church.

    Rest assured none of these accusations are true.

    I am currently teaching the book of Genesis on our journey through the entire Bible, a journey I have made three times in the past. What I said to a group of pastors at a recent conference is that I didn’t believe the Sunday morning service was the best place to do your Through the Bible study. I encouraged them to take their Sunday morning services to teach and preach through the New Testament. After all, we are saved through and living under the New Covenant. I also made it clear that we should seek to be led by the Spirit in selecting what we will teach on Sunday morning and if the Spirit is leading someone to teach through Leviticus they should by all means do that.

    I recently taught through the Book of Revelation, going chapter by chapter during our mid-week Bible study, and preaching from selected text on Sunday mornings. Through our study of Revelation I was obviously teaching Bible prophecy, and did at least two, if not three studies on the Rapture of the Church. What I said to the pastors that has been misconstrued is that we need to be careful not to put an over emphasis on one particular doctrine, and that teaching and preaching on End Times themes every week will lead to an imbalance in the lives of people in their churches.

    At the same pastor’s conference, during a panel discussion, I also addressed Calvary Chapel’s idea of equating teaching verse by verse from Genesis to Revelation with “Teaching the Whole Counsel of God”. My point was that although this “method” is our tradition at Calvary Chapel, we shouldn’t think that those who are not following this “method” are somehow failing to teach the whole counsel of God. Many great men in the history of the church have faithfully proclaimed the whole counsel of God without teaching verse by verse from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with the Apostles themselves. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate they followed this method. Nor did the Reformers, the Puritans, the Wesleys, Ryle, Spurgeon, Morgan, Lloyd-Jones, Barnhouse, Stott and a host of others. As a matter of fact, Pastor Chuck himself for many years of his own ministry didn’t follow this method. He came upon the idea to teach from Gen-Rev through reading Halley’s Bible Handbook. It has proven in many cases to be a good method, but let’s not enshrine it as the only method of teaching the whole counsel of God.

    So these are the things that I actually said or intended to say as I was speaking to a group of pastors. If you disagree with me on what I’ve said, that’s fine. I just thought it was good to make clear what I said and didn’t say.”

  69. Jerod says:

    I will say this, Replacement theology and Dominionism are at the heart of the world’s anti-Semitism. In the face of the world events transpiring, to cling to those is dangerous to your faith. God keeps his promises.

  70. Michael says:

    MLD, I’ll let you take it from here, you anti-semitic amiller. 🙂

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod – don’t be too hard on yourself and those you follow. Those of you who have created replacement theology (having replaced Jesus with the modern state of Israel) are not totally the cause of anti-Semitism – along side that bad theology is sin, death and the devil at work.

    So I will assume you are taking back your claim that the OT was solely about Jesus 😉

  72. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Thank you Michael – we amiller never quite get enough creit for the damage we have caused our Jewish brothers. Oh wait – I actually have Jewish brothers – a Jewish mother and father, grandparents, aunts and uncles – even a couple of cousins. 😉

  73. pstrmike says:

    Jerod,
    I go back to the tent days. I was a foot soldier during the Jesus Movement and I was involved with a few different groups. I’ve seen a lot of things both good and bad, come out of the church in that time. I’m a recovering discernment junkie. I think I understand how to separate the wheat from the chaff, as a matter fact, I believe it is one of my spiritual gifts.
    I look at things over a length of time, I do my own research, and I pray. I’m really comfortable with what Brodersen is doing.

  74. Jerod says:

    Mike

    Yeah, that was quite the backpedal.

    Still can’t be direct, eh?

  75. Jerod says:

    MLD,

    Jews who don’t take the God’s promises seriously is nothing new. Never called you an anti Semite, but if you want to believe I took your bait, go ahead. It is as I said.

  76. Michael says:

    Jerod,
    What are you talking about?
    That was a direct quote.
    You’re playing games now…

  77. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jerod,
    Don’t feel bad – I have been called anti Semitic by the rapture theology crowd for years.

    I think, and you may disagree, that God’s promises are about Jesus Christ. The promise to Israel was to deliver Christ to the world – not be the co redeemer. 😉

  78. Jerod says:

    Right,

    Have a day.

  79. Erunner says:

    I just read through this quickly and thought what was shared from BB in # 69 was pretty clear on the matter.

    Since Pastor Chuck passed we’ve read about all of the things going on in the CC circles. Brian has been getting bashed in one fashion or another for quite some time. Some of it was unfair and vicious. He appears to me to have always handled things well. Granted I’m a pew sitter but I have spent over 30 years within CC.

    I attended CCCM from April ’76 till January ’79. Sunday mornings PC always taught a topical message that he pulled from his verse by verse study he would do later that evening. Many people came to faith on Sunday mornings. That’s a good thing.

    Sadly what I picked up through the years from various CC’s was that the denominational churches were dead and that CC was pretty much the church of Philadelphia as described in the last book of the Bible.

    I bought that for a time as I implicitly trusted my Pastors. They represented God and therefore I could bank on anything they shared. I moved away from that but sadly still see that mindset with many today.

    AS far as the verse by verse teaching I like it. I like it a lot. But I would be silly to think God doesn’t use other forms of teaching as well. As I’ve stated before I’ve sat through verse by verse teaching that pretty much amounted to a topical message. The pastor would quickly comment on some verses and then camp out on the verse or verses he wanted to focus on. Quite often the message would conclude with the pastor breezing through several verses to conclude the message with minimal or no comment.

    Now I see many CC’s have moved into the discernment aspect of things. Everybody gets exposed and everyone feels better about themselves. Then we have the whole end times topic. When I was saved in ’76 we were told how soon it would be until we were outta here.

    Forty years later I see it has become an industry with end times conferences everywhere all of the time. There’s always stuff for sale and speakers and writers make some money for their time.

    I’ve finally grown sick of the end times stuff. I’ve seen and heard it all too many times. You grow immune to it after time and then you realize there’s so many more in the body who believe differently than CC. The ones I saw attacked so often with the seminary cemetery stuff that was so common.

    So yeah. I have zero problem with BB doing things a bit differently. The bottom line is me and God. That is what I would like to think I’m trying to improve is that relationship. I’ve also found how wonderful it is to know believers from other parts of the body. Jesus seems to show up each time.

    If we can’t learn to come together then how do we reflect Jesus to the world? It won’t happen as the body continues attacking those who aren’t in lock step with them

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