Calvary Chapel Association Loses Three More From Council: Corrected

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71 Responses

  1. Stephen says:

    “these losses may spell the end of the CCA as a viable organization representing more than one mans quest to take the place of Chuck Smith…”

    Oh how I pray this to be true

  2. brian says:

    You know all the political stuff aside, this must be really hard on many Calvary chapel pastors/congregations.

  3. Michael says:

    Brian,

    To a point,it has been for some.
    For others…it’s been a liberating experience.

  4. dusty says:

    isn’t Damien Kyle on the list for the Gospel for asia suit?

  5. Disillusioned says:

    I’d venture to say it isn’t an issue at all with most CCs – the attendees likely have no idea of how their leaders are wrestling for power.

  6. Michael says:

    Dusty,

    Kyle was a GFA board member for a short time.

  7. stephen says:

    Yet their pics are still on the “leaders” page

  8. stephen says:

    Sorry, Damien Kyle isn’t pictured, but Guzik and Taylor are

  9. stephen says:

    Ugh, to clarify…I’m not doubting the reporting, but rather making I
    An observation on the CCA’s lack of updating.

  10. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    You can doubt me, but it’s usually a bad bet… 🙂

  11. dusty says:

    Michael’s sources are always checked and double checked before posting a story. He is always on his game.

  12. Stephen says:

    Not doubting u Michael. Not at all…Which is why I tried to clarify it with what amounted to a triple post.

    Like I said, I was merely pointing out the CCA’s lack of activity on updating their website…Which was meant to point out more of their deception.

  13. Michael says:

    stephen,

    They were quick to remove some of the guys…these defections are going to cause a lot of questions to be raised…

  14. dusty says:

    Stephen, They do what they can to deceve the masses don’t they?

  15. Mayonaise says:

    Wait, so is the “stay the course conference” still on? Asking for a friend.

  16. Michael says:

    My guess is that they will try to “stay the course”…but this may be getting close to the end.

  17. Michael says:

    These losses are major…three very respected men that can’t be slimed the way they have slandered Brodersen…

  18. Mayonaise says:

    It amazes me how these guys left on the board still have jobs. Take little Jackie Hibbs for example, it is only in the Moses Model system that he can go off on politics as much as he does. If there was shared leadership they would call him out on the simple fact that he has turned into a politician and has gone off the deep end. I heard him on the radio bragging about how he threatened a local politician with his 10,000 congregation votes if the guy didn’t promote some bill that Jackie felt was right. These guys were living the high life on their pastoral thrones and its good to see it crumbling down. I love Calvary Chapel doctrine but I’ve come to understand how wrong the leadership model is.

  19. Mayonaise says:

    BTW, how dramatic and prideful is the conference title “Stay the Course”?

  20. Michael says:

    The funny part is that the “stay the course” meme was started by George Bryson…who McClure kicked out of the movement…

  21. Mayonaise says:

    I don’t mean to be childish here (that’s how they operate) but does McClure give anyone else the creeps?

  22. Michael says:

    Many that I talk to within the movement blame the whole split on McClure.
    I think that is more accurate than not…

  23. Steve says:

    Damian Kyle is a scheduled speaker for the CCA “Stay the course” conference. Has he backed out of that?

  24. stephen says:

    It can be no co-incidence that a Blog by Dave Rolph today was entitled “The key to Staying the Course.”

  25. stephen says:

    Which, by the way, did NOT take on a CCA tone in the least (just to clarify).

  26. Michael says:

    Steve,

    I don’t know.
    I’m still working on other parts of the story…

  27. Kevin H says:

    So from the original CCA leadership council of 20-some men from only about 3 years ago, we have lost of course Brian Brodersen, and Bob Coy and Bob Caldwell when they were found out for their years of adulterous affairs, and now Kyle, Taylor, and Guzik, and also previously Tom Stipe and Ray Bentley. Maybe there are some others from further back that I’m not remembering.

    And of the 13 men we have left, they include the infamous Skip Heitzig, two men (Raul Ries and David Rosales) who were on Bob Grenier’s board and refused to do anything about that situation, and Jack Hibbs who apparently thinks a major part of his job description is to be a politician.

    What a sad state of affairs.

  28. Michael says:

    And…I’m chasing down a rumor that one more has left…

  29. JD says:

    Uh oh, got the “Missed seeing you Sunday” message. Wait, aren’t we supposed to be at church right now? With the time stamp now everybody knows.

  30. pstrmike says:

    This latest series of resignations brings more doubt to the validity of this council. If this was what truly what Chuck wanted (because it was what the Lord wanted), then how is it that Greg Laurie resigned right away, two men were involved in adultery, and five other men have resigned from what has been presented to us as “the Lord’s” choice for Calvary Chapel?

    I’m also curious whether Guzik, Kyle and Taylor will remain as affiliated pastors of CCA, or they will leave the association (why would they resign from leadership and remain a part of the association?), or if they will be kicked out?

  31. Kevin H says:

    pstrmike,

    At this point, there would seem to be only two possible explanations for how these men could have been the “the Lord’s choice” for Calvary Chapel.

    1) They were his choice because the Lord desired there to be a split and breaking apart of the powerful men of Calvary Chapel.

    2) They were his choice but they (at least some of them) have reneged on their calling and have acted selfishly, bringing about discord and dissension.

  32. Steve says:

    “Lord’s choice for Calvary Chapel”.

    Does God have a choice with Calvary Chapel or should he consult with Don McClure first?

  33. Col46 says:

    Kevin – or maybe the Lord knowing #2 allowed for #1

  34. Kevin H says:

    Col46,

    There very well could be an association between the two.

  35. JM says:

    Oy Vey Iz Mir!

    pstrmike,

    Do you feel comfortable with delineating the initials of the two that have committed the dirty. I simply want to confirm what I have assumed for a very long time. Nothing more. Thanks ahead.

  36. JM says:

    Sow the wind. Reap the whirlwind.

  37. Kevin H says:

    JM,

    I would assume pstrmike was referring to Coy & Caldwell.

  38. CloseToThis says:

    From one, close to this:
    The CCA “team” which Chuck allegedly selected to preserve CC’s legacy, for all intents and purposes, clearly appears ill/toxic. I say “allegedly selected”, because not all in current status were selected by Chuck (some are later additions), while others whom he had selected have either been AWOL or have fallen to moral crisis.

    The reports/apparent realities which have come forth from the, “appointed heirs” range from:
    •Adultery (sadly: Caldwell, Coy 😢)
    •Slander (clearly “bearing false witness” about Broderson)
    •Abuse
    •Selfish ambition
    •Deceptiveness (claiming there’s “unity” in recent months, when this is clearly untrue)

    In summary, their “fruit” is opposite of “the wisdom from above”, which is “peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.”

    Fortunately, there is a way forward for these men (who have faithfully served God for decades), out of the toxic culture they’ve created — “modeling repentance”.

    This is not easy, as it requires death — death to self.

    The good news is, resurrection follows death … or, so we’re told.

  39. JM says:

    Thank you, Kevin H. I had somewhat credible info on RR, but less so on another. I will leave it at that and hope God will reveal it all soon so people can know who to trust and who are the hypocrites.

  40. JM says:

    CloseToThis

    Thanks for your input.

  41. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    And to loosely quote one of many KWAVE tirades about other ministries I had to endure for about a decade, what does it say about a “movement” when all this nonsense occurs just a few years after the founder’s passing?!!!
    CCs “obviously” showed the “moving of the Spirit” (when contrasted with the “old wine-skins” of every other ministry), but my canned-soup is outlasting this “move of God?”
    Huh?

    By the way, I’m separating “blasphemously” God’s works and His tools (pun intended).
    I know (or at least remember from their many words and actions) CC pastors refuse to judge themselves as they judge (like Jesus prophesied in “the Lord’s prayer” He will do).
    I’m just stupefied these guys drank (and continued to distribute their koolaid) for decades and now REFUSE take their own medicine!
    To be fair to some of the guys, I heard first-hand fair self-criticism, but it usually proceeded (to plagiarize Michael) “the right-foot of fellowship” – their “gifts” and “calling” which is “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29) suddenly not so much.
    It would be interesting to know the #s of ex-CC pastors with current ones.

  42. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    Just to clarify, I’m only pointing the finger their Caesar-model of church governance (high-holy taboo), nothing else.
    However, CCs really didn’t invent anything contrary to popular book/conference sales.

  43. Jim Jacobson says:

    I spoke with Wayne on Wed. He said he had not resigned. Guzik resigned a couple weeks ago (I heard this from him directly)

  44. Jim Jacobson says:

    The only remedy for the CCA is transparency. If the council meetings were recorded and published for all CC affiliates to read, the nonsense would end. What is said and done behind closed doors is childish, and the childish actors would be exposed or silenced.
    Beyond this kind of change, I don’t see any remedy.

  45. Steve says:

    Jim Jacobson, I don’t think its just the affiliates that need to be put in the loop but the entire congregation needs this transparency. The congregation is the bread and butter of a church. If you don’t fix this all the way down to the butt in the pew you really haven’t fixed anything.

  46. Steve Wright says:

    Jim Jacobson,

    You have spoken well in post #44.

    The simple fact that all of us pastors continually receive these emails AFTER the council has just met, where we are then told what was decided, is troubling.

    As example: the latest email received over the weekend that has not yet been posted at the CCA website nor mentioned here. I read (as usual) “This past week, the CCA Council met and worked out a number of areas that are vital to our ministry. Here are a few of the decisions we made”

    At an absolute minimum. At the very least, would it not be wise to tell all the pastors, “Hey, brothers. We are meeting next week and would really appreciate your prayers for our meeting and that the Spirit lead us”

    What possible POSITIVE reason could there be in not letting people know ahead of time about a meeting so they can be in prayer….unless the desire to avoid people adding to the agenda with their concerns and emails outweighs having your brothers in Christ praying for you. I am all ears how “being led by the Spirit” can involve such secrecy if someone has an explanation. (John 18:20 comes to mind)

    I was encouraged by the recent email. But would be more so if it was not delivered in this same old fashion, after the fact. In discussing with some others I know I am not alone in this, and I appreciate you saying so as well, above.

    Pastor Steve Wright
    Calvary Chapel of Lake Elsinore

  47. Col46 says:

    @46 – John 18:20 nails it

  48. Jim Jacobson says:

    Well, from what I have heard, the email doesn’t really tell the truth about the content of the meeting. I am not at liberty to say any more. If the details were published it would be humiliating to several guys.

  49. Steve Wright says:

    I am not surprised….sadly.

  50. Corby says:

    You know, I suspect all of the content of all the emails, at least since this all started. What is published rarely matches the events that follow in terms of unity. “we met together, we agree” and then guys resign. Makes you wonder what actually happened. And that in itself is sad no matter how much kool aid you drink.

  51. Michael says:

    This may have been the nastiest, least “unified” meeting ever…

  52. CrucifiED says:

    I don’t know McClure personally, but I think I could pin point the beginning of my disillusion with CC on him. It was the year that Christianity Today ran the story on Skip Heitzig. This was right before the ECPC so everyone had questions about what was in the news.

    Chuck Smith was conferenced in to one of the first sessions and addressed the issue by basically saying Skip was a good man and therefore no reason to really even talk about it the issue… let’s move on with the conference.

    Then in a smaller senior pastors meeting after that, one pastor from a small church in South Carolina, who had people asking him about the story, asked Don McClure who was leading the meeting for some clarification of the issue and something to say to the people back home.

    Don, who I had always liked listening to before basically made the guy feel ashamed for asking the question and would not further discuss the story with us. Instead we had to pray about our bad attitudes.

    This was the church that I had always defended as being one of the most transparent organizations around, just as I had always heard pastor Chuck describe the transparency of CC himself in his sermons.

    Being a part of a small and neglected CC for so long, I took it personally the way Don shamed this pastor as we all just want to be true to being a transparent church.

    From that day forward, I began to see some of these pastors, including pastor Chuck in a different light. I started to see that this church was not really what I always had championed it to be.

    Things like that were what began to open my eyes to a lot of the conversations I was reading about CC in places like this blog; things I had denied for so long thinking you all were just misguided.

    Thinking back on it all, I wouldn’t be surprised if what some have suggested here is true of a single dividing character in all of this new trouble for CC. I believed I saw all of this coming to a head soon, and seeing that was one of the main reasons I was happy to let CC go and walk away.

  53. Jim Jacobson says:

    Crucified,… I sympathize with your story.

  54. Jim Jacobson says:

    “Don shamed this pastor”… oh that makes my blood boil. Where are the men?

  55. JM says:

    So Chuck is not the benevolent Santa Claus that so many still say that he was. Apparently, he covered up a lot of doo doo.

  56. JM says:

    Was there ever a time when things were conducted morally within the hallowed halls of CC?

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve Wright @46 – you need to become Lutheran. We post our meeting, locally, district wide and at the Synod weeks in advance – AND, get this – we let people attend and participate.

    Your frustration with CCA’s methods are the same frustrations your congregants feel – no one keeps them in the loop (occasionally after the fact – most times not at all) – this is why your CC should give a 5 yr test to being a congregation run church – see if the information doesn’t just flow down to all. 😉

  58. CrucifiED says:

    Sorry to get you worked up Jim, but thank you for comments. It really bothered me too, as if he had said it directly to me, and I felt badly for the pastor who asked the question.

    I was the biggest supporter and defender of CC you could find where I live, but after that and another couple years worth of even more disappointing pastor’s conferences, I just had all my loyalty to the movement beaten out of me.

    I love some of the people I know in Calvary and wish them all the best, but I am happy to have it out of my life. I’d come visit your church though if ever in town. : -)

  59. Stephen says:

    Wait…there was ANOTHER CCA letter??!?!

    And no one can talk about this one?

    As a side note: I only have a decade (plus a few years) at CC, and although I was never “in the know,” with the “back room dealings,” I always got that odd feeling from lots of the leadership there (not all…but several that crossed my personal path)…kind of like there was something wrong but they always made it seem it was my observational skills (or my personality…or my attitude..etc) that was the real problem.

    Not them.

    I was the problem, according to them. I never settled for that…never believed it. I was convinced I wasn’t mistaken…you know? But during those few times when I doubted, or needed assurance the Lord “came through,” and confirmed to me in personal ways (divine appointments, etc) that I was not mistaken.

    They did NOT like being challenged by my observations/concerns…that I can tell you for sure. I didn’t go out of my way to do it…they just happened in the course of my interactions with them (most of which they initiated with the goal of “confronting” me on an issue).

    Or it happened when I voiced a question or concern that I was genuinely confused about…purely seeking clarification and/or understanding. These instances made the issues (all issues) even worse.

    I learned to trust “that feeling” that something was wrong. It caused much angst and conflict between those CC pastors and my family that even lingers to this day. I wish it didn’t, but it does. (they are on the CCA side of the issue, by the way).

    It’s bittersweet to see that I wasn’t wrong…I mean, I wish those thoughts/feelings I had were wrong, but I feel relieved that I wasn’t crazy/sin-filled/etc.

    Again, this was with several of them who were all “cliqued together,” and not indicative of all of the CC pastors with whom I crossed paths. I’ve met a number of CC pastors who I respect highly who I believe are on the “up and up.”

    Until proven differently, that is.

    I’ve come to believe, in recent days, that many of the issues of CC stem from the nature of the beginnings of CC: the “non-conformist” vibe that drew in so many hippies (ie: no membership, no suit/tie, alternative music, etc).

    (Ok, I’m dong rambling and ranting for now…)

    BTW:

    Jim Jacobson: your website looks amazing!

    Steve Wright: Did they(the CCA) ever answer your letter from…oh, what? Three months ago??

  60. CrucifiED says:

    Thanks for sharing that Stephen. All of that sounds super familiar to my experiences, observations and stories I’ve heard from others, especially with the smaller Calvary Chapels trying to find their place in the whole scene and have fellowship with the greater CC pastors and ministries.

  61. Scooter Jones says:

    Gee whiz, what s circus this whole CCA thing is turning out to be.

    They (whoever that is) need to bury it, the corpse is really starting to stink.

  62. John says:

    Was Damian Kyle ever ON the “leadership council”? None of the archive.org versions list him there (or even on regional leadership).

  63. pstrmike says:

    John,
    Kyle was originally on the council, we were told he resigned due to health reasons ( I heard he didn’t have the desire to stay in the game). Apparently, he came back only recently, long enough to help the council throw Brodersen under the bus, and now he has resigned a second time.

  64. Steve says:

    So basically whenever CCA wants to get a quorum vote they can pull in the old defectors and whenever there is a decision or responsibility called for, a council member can cry “I resigned, that’s not my responsibility”. This sounds so familiar to the GFA debacle.

  65. pstrmike says:

    Steve,
    I am not sure that is true. However, I have asked what their by-laws are, what type of written guidelines they have to oversee their actions. I was told “we just pray about it”.

    That’s not accountability, and it opens the door for the dominant voice or voices to win the day.

  66. Disillusioned says:

    “We just pray about it”

    Right. To each other and their wives.

  67. John says:

    Interesting update:
    http://calvarychapelassociation.com/bible-college/

    Originally – the Murrieta main campus of CC Bible College was taken down after the split. It has now been restored.

    Sounds like a divorce that’s figuring out how to co-parent after the split (they won’t really be able to split). I know most people on here are pretty anti-calvary. But I’m still kinda hoping maybe there’s a reunion a sorts.

    Also – David Guzik is still on the CCA council. And he’s speaking at the western europe conference alongside Broderson. I bet there’s guys on that council still trying to hold it all together.

  68. Stephen says:

    The *have* to play nice with Murietta or else there will be a ton of ticked off college students who didn’t graduate because of the requirement to take classes on Murietta campus.

    I was wondering if they were going to fix that.

  69. Erik says:

    Kyle and Guzik are still with CCA so this is Fake News, Gossip, and Rumor

  70. Michael says:

    Erik,

    You probably were filled with joy at using a Trumpism.
    Unfortunately, your comment has about as much veracity as he does.

    The article clearly stated that these men had left the council…and they had.

    So, you really don’t know what you’re talking about and probably should quietly learn at the feet of people who do.

  71. J Courson says:

    Raul Ries strikes again … Has anyone read on the CC Golden Springs website the “homily” by RR that God gave us Donald Trump as a gift of his mercy ….. Raul has even exceeded Franklin Graham in his cheerleading for the porn-star president … of course Calvary’s have a long history of winking at adultery – as long as you’re in leadership … so the fact that Trump has shown he lied about paying 130 million in hush money to a pornstar who he had sex with while his THIRD wife was at home raising their 1 year old …. So Raul – You’re trying to sell me this is GOd’s work ??? If Trump is part of GODS plan … shouldn’t your church be growning since Trump took office??? …. Youre like Trump you have a small base to preach to that is SHRINKING not growing …. Maybe if you read more G. Campbell Morgan, Griffith Thomas, William Newell etc instead of watching FOX news you’d be able to feed your flock and not be a Political commentoter …

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