Coming Out of The Ecumenical Closet

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100 Responses

  1. Nonnie says:

    Amen, amen, amen!!!

  2. Nonnie says:

    Oh!!! First!!

  3. Laura Scott says:

    Well, well, well… About time.

  4. Poor Jackie, so desperate for attention when what she refuses is love

  5. DavidM says:

    I continue to wonder why you waste an ounce of energy on even caring about the opinions of a Jackie Alnor.

  6. Michael says:

    DavidM,

    I do so because she represents the opinions of many not only in CC, but in other groups that place an undue emphasis on “discernment” and prophecy.
    The more we drag those views into the light, the better.

  7. Francisco Nunez says:

    It seems folks can get labeled terms like ecumenical , emerging, or even emergent by those who simply differ on the non essentials of orthodox Christianity, without defining or truly knowing what these terms actually mean.

  8. Muff Potter says:

    I gotta chime in with Nonnie on this one Michael,
    AMEN ! and AMEN !

  9. The prophesy & “discernment” stuff, it’s a departure from the enduring church that brought about positive cultural reform.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_%282013_film%29

  10. Northstar says:

    Roman Catholics preach another Gospel so they are not out Brothers so one of the scriptures above doesnt apply

  11. Northstar says:

    “Our brothers”

    They also practice idolatry and place faith in a blasphemous false leader such as Pope Francis

  12. Northstar says:

    Everything in the Bible is to be treated with importance, no such thing as secondary issues

  13. erunner says:

    What Michael stated. “I do not affirm the Roman Catholic church, but I affirm all those within it who confess the name of Christ despite what I believe are the serious errors of the institution.”

    Northstar, I can not judge a person as lost who confesses Jesus as Lord. That is very dangerous ground to stand on.

  14. filbertz says:

    northstar,
    please explain to me the equal importance of the blood of Christ and baptism for the dead.

  15. Babylon's Dread says:

    They drew a circle and put me out
    “Rebel, heretic!” A thing to flout
    But love and I had the wit to win
    We drew a circle and took them in.

  16. filbertz says:

    Anne,
    I like that cartoon.
    Dread
    I like that poem.

  17. Northstar says:

    Doesn’t the Word of God say to let anyone be accursed who preaches another Gospel? The question is, do Catholics preach another Gospel?

  18. I have absolutely NO problem with Pope Francis.

    I also have family who are deeply committed to Jesus, practicing Roman Catholics, who are serving in their parish in the Bay Area.

    http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/11/17/holy-spirit-catholic-church-drive-thru-god-fremont-church-offers-prayer-service-for-those-on-the-go/

  19. Basically it doesn’t matter if the leadership of a church preaches something “less than orthodox”, because people will ultimately choose what they believe and what they reject.

  20. Jean says:

    “do Catholics preach another Gospel?”

    No!

  21. Well the RCC sure thinks that Lutherans teach a different gospel- and they have no trouble making such charges in print.
    So choose.

  22. So here is the deal if everyone who loves and follows Jackie hates you there are just as many people left in the world to like you as before. I am pretty sure you will find friends.

  23. Jean says:

    I should be shocked that Christians would act that way (i.e., judgmental and mean spirited), but I’m not, and that itself grieves me. The other night someone in the name of Christ told me I was a servant of Satan. That was an awesome affirmation.

  24. Jean,
    I saw that – that guy barely knows you. How did he know? 😉

    But that is just an individual on FB – the other is the largest church body of earth … as their official doctrine – publicly taught.

  25. Jean says:

    MLD,

    I attempted to review your comment by reference to the Joint Statement put out by the RCC and the ELCA in 2010. The problem is that it’s 137 pages, and I don’t care that much.

    However, suffice it to say, from what I reviewed, that the RCC considers Lutherans Christians. At worst, they probably think of you the way you think of them, and me, and Steve and Michael and Xenia, etc.

    Since all of the above affirm the Nicene Creed, I think we can all hold hands (at Starbucks at least). 🙂

  26. Jean,
    First, the ELCA and the Lutheran World Federation are apostate
    second, the RCC will chum up to anyone in the disguise of compromise, but not give an inch on their end
    Third, the Joint Declaration is a good example of getting the wool pulled over your eyes.

    Just 2 of the 7 canons (Trent) that deal with us – and i hope you would include yourself in those of us being given the big anathema

    CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

    CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified . . . let him be accursed”

  27. Jean says:

    MLD,

    Relax a little. Your imputing the worst of motives to Catholics. Terms like “disguise” and “getting the wool pulled over…” are unbecoming. That’s the same type of rhetoric that the discernment people use.

    When was Trent written (1550?) and how many Catholics today do you suppose know about it? Do you really think that the current Pope and the US Council of Bishops agree with those statements?

    When you read Luther and many things in the Book of Concord, I’m sure you come across parabolic rhetoric against the RCC. There is even name calling.

    I don’t think nor recommend that we live indefinitely in the 16th century.

  28. ( |o )====::: says:

    To be hated by Jackie Alnor is to be loved by the rest of humanity

  29. FME says:

    Michael…I agree, great observation. I respect your courage to drag this into the light.

    Dread@17…love the poem and the Spirit!

  30. Xenia says:

    I have always liked Jackie Alnor. I hardly agree with anything she says but I like her anyway.

  31. Muff Potter says:

    Xenia @ # 32 :

    If only more of us could like each other in spite of ourselves, how far would that go in defusing animosity, hatred, and all the other bad stuff that makes the world so cold? Good call Xenia, good call…

  32. “Do you really think that the current Pope and the US Council of Bishops agree with those statements?”

    Of course they still agree with it.
    1.) It’s their doctrine that you are not saved by grace through faith alone and that those who teach such stuff are outside the one true faith.
    2.) How many opportunities have they had to rescind those canons? Pope Francis is ready to toss out divorce and same sex marriage restrictions with the wave of his wand – why not Trent?
    3.) It does not matter what Catholic individuals think – it matters what is the dogma of the church body.

    Let’s reverse it – what do you think of those in authority or teaching positions who absolutely deny that salvation comes strictly by grace through faith alone?

  33. I think Jackie holds the true “rapture theology” position – where anyone who disagrees is out.

    Look at the new movie Let the Lion Roar – where their goal is to push the agenda to complete the the Reformation – where the position of the amil reformers was nothing but rank anti semitism (Calvin taking the big hit in the movie) and that scripture was changed for that purpose.

    That thinking is the natural outgrowth of that theology and was openly taught throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s – Y2K made such an embarrassment that the rapture folks had to start playing nice – so now they will not call you an anti semite to your face like so many did in the 80s.

  34. Jean says:

    MLD,

    Below is the entire RCC Catechism on Justification “word for word.” It is well within what Scripture teaches. I’m sure any of us could nitpick a word or sentence here or there, but in the whole, it is completely orthodox. Please take a look, so you can see the reality of what they believe.

    1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:

    But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:

    [God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature…. For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.

    1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”

    1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

    1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

    1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

    1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

    When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.

    1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because “heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect… will not pass away.” He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

    1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,” justification entails the sanctification of his whole being: (741)

    Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification…. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

  35. Michael says:

    Jean,

    Speak for yourself…I find most of that to be gross error.
    MLD has a very valid point in pointing out that the anathemas of Trent have not been lifted and they have intentionally not been lifted.
    Having said that, I still make the distinction between the institutional Roman church (which I find odious) and the individual faith of it’s members.

  36. Jean says:

    Michael, I do speak for myself, thank you very much, as does MLD.

  37. Jean says:

    Of course, if something is gross error, point it out and why.

  38. Michael says:

    Jean,

    I am a Reformed Protestant.
    All that verbiage is a denial of justification by grace through faith alone, a denial of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness and an utter confusion of biblical justification and sanctification.
    Other than that, it’s peachy keen…

  39. Jean says:

    That’s not the way I read it. But then I’m the guy who wouldn’t know John Calvin if he bit me on the a**.

  40. Michael says:

    Jean,

    It would profit you greatly to meet him.

  41. Michael says:

    I’m not questioning the “orthodoxy” of the statement, but there was a Reformation for a reason.
    The RCC denies all the doctrines I mentioned in #40 and has not lifted the anathemas on those who preach and believe them.

  42. Jean says:

    I’m not a historian, so I don’t know the evolution of the Catechism. I only know what it says today on the website of the U.S. Council of Bishops. I assume that’s what’s taught in Confirmation and new member classes. That’s good enough for me to say they’re orthodox.

    You’re welcome to a different opinion.

  43. First I want to say that I do do not hold the dogmas of the RCC against the individual Catholic. Many people within the Roman Church get saved in spite of the Church.

    But let’s look at 2 things – the definition of word Grace – same word, different meanings RCC = God gives you the power to get saved. Speaking for myself Lutheran = God actually saves you.

    Let’s also look at purgatory as some do not understand it. Purgatory is only for those going to heaven. It is not some final proving ground to see if it will be heaven or hell. All people in purgatory are going to heaven – however the RCC type grace was not good enough to get them the non stop flight.

    My intent was not to bash RCC beliefs -I was just pointing out their draconian position against those who disagreed with them.

  44. filbertz says:

    I think the discernment tribe is a lot like a decaying leaf pile: some heat, no light.

  45. fil – are you discerning the discernment ministries? 🙂

  46. filbertz says:

    MLD,
    I haven’t tossed anyone into outer darkness.

    Yet. 😉

  47. Steve Wright says:

    To be hated by Jackie Alnor is to be loved by the rest of humanity
    ———————————————-
    What an absolutely horrible thing to say. Not a bit of red letter Jesus-love that supposedly is proclaimed.

    Not a whit of difference between this and the hatred being condemned by those here against her and her FB friends. Except for which “team” is the source.

    But I expect to read, rather than an apology, a self-justification and doubling down – I’ve been around here too long to expect anything less.

  48. pstrmike says:

    “I believe in the universal, catholic, church.

    I believe in the unity of the Spirit across lines of tradition and denominations.”

    Most of those involved in the Great Awakenings felt the same way. Most respected the church universal, and while holding fast to their own doctrinal persuasions, extended charity toward those whom they disagreed with.

    Sounds like we need another Great Awakening, but I afraid too many would rather see a great apostasy.

  49. brian says:

    You know Michael if you are outside the park I must be on the back forty with the cows.

  50. Q says:

    Jackie is kind of an easy target for many reasons, she is more a cc apologist (old school cc) not recognizing many problems, she is not a representative of of those you wish her to be.

    I doubt she hates people and isn’t leading people into ‘darkness’, that is a serious accusation.

    I guess I’ll go arm wrestle 6th graders now.

  51. London says:

    Meh. Who cares what they say. Just believe what you believe and let them believe what they believe.

  52. Nonnie says:

    I’m with Xenia and London.

  53. I found a song for Jackie and her Premil/dispie crowd;

    “Jesus loves the little children,
    All the children of the world.
    Red and yellow, black and white,
    All are precious in His sight,
    However, the Jewish children are more special because they’re still part of God’s chosen people.”

    ‘Jesus Loves the Little Children’ (Dispensationalis Remix)

  54. It’s always best to agree with Xenia, London, and Nonnie 🙂

  55. Andy says:

    What is the “ecumenical closet”? Most of the populations of the earth are ecumenical. Vast billions of people are ecumenical. There is no “closet” to come out of. The world is ecumenical.

    It is those that hold only to the Scriptures as the final and only authority, that are forced into the closet by the world. Just the case being, some refuse to be quiet and stay in there (like Jackie and Roger).

  56. “It is those that hold only to the Scriptures as the final and only authority,”

    In that case, toss me in the closet with Jackie and Roger.

  57. Jean says:

    Maybe some folks don’t know what “ecumenical” means:

    (1) worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application;
    (2) a: of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches;
    b: promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation.
    – Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    “Ecumenical” has nothing to do with one’s view of the authority of Scripture.

  58. Northstar says:

    I don’t get the fascination with John Calvin, Didn’t he persecute those who disagreed with him? That’s certainly not the heart of our Lord and Savior who died for EVERYONE and desires ALL to be saved. But its FREE WILL and those who believe in the heart that come to Salvation. I’m afraid Mr. Calvin was in error and there were Born Again believers who held to the Word of God long before the Reformation took place. Sorry but ill stick with Paul over Calvin as an example to follow Christ!

  59. Andy says:

    Josh the Baptist, I am also in that closet.

    Jean, I know what I mean by the word “ecumenical”. Websters doesn’t matter to me at all.

    What I mean by “ecumenical”, is widening the borders outside of what is truth, in order to include more within the borders. The Author of Scripture means something by what He says in His Word, and so not just any interpretation will do. But those that are “ecumenical”, don’t care about that at all. Just say “Jesus” and you’re within their borders. I will gladly sit in the closet with a few, rather than confirm the lies of the many.

  60. Andy says:

    Northstar, yes. Calvin persecuted many. He was also basically catholic-lite. He admitted that his entire theology was lifted from catholic Augustine.

    I like to keep things simple, with just Scripture. John 3:16 is good enough to make that point for me. 🙂

    I will state now, so that Michael loses this trump card, that I am not a disciple of Bob Wilkin or Zane Hodges. Both are false teachers.

  61. Jean says:

    There’s a big difference between (a) saying that the Bible doesn’t contain the truth or that the truth is less important than Christian cooperation and unity and (b) saying that my interpretation of the Bible is the only authentic truth. Most of the people who I hear rail against ecumenism are the ones in camp (b).

    Perhaps a dose of humility from St. Paul is in order: “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.”

  62. Northstar says:

    Also wasn’t John Calvin a proponent of Replacement Theology which reminds me of the scripture Revelation 2:9

  63. Andy says:

    Jean, Paul in that verse wasn’t referring to Scriptural interpretation and understanding. Paul was referring to the usage of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

    So you are wrong about that. And this is why unity is not possible between you and me. If you want unity, why not join my “side”? Why do you insist on having me either join your side, or, compromise mine in order to find some sham “unity”?

  64. Andy says:

    Northstar, yes, you are right. Very good point. Calvin was replacement theology, through and through. He was “reformed”. Reformed catholicism. Catholicism with some varied window dressings.

    God didn’t tell us in His Word to reform catholicism. God tells us in His Word to abandon lies, and to believe only His Word. So Calvin was off.

  65. Oh boy. We could have had a decent discussion on ecumenicism if Calvin wasn’t tossed under the bus.

    That won’t end well.

  66. Andy says:

    Josh, I’d be worried about that if John Calvin were God. But he’s not God. He was just a man. Just as fallible and just as capable of being wrong as anybody. He’s dead. But the Word of God goes on forever.

  67. Jean says:

    Andy,
    Paul was referring to our imperfect knowledge of God while in the flesh.

    However, what would I need to do or affirm to join your side?

  68. Andy says:

    Jean, no, Paul didn’t mean the general knowledge of God. He meant only the usage of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as that is the theme of chapters 12, 13, and 14. Context matters.

    To join my “side”? Believe that entrance to heaven is only by believing in Jesus Christ, that Jesus is God and Jesus died to pay in full for all of our sins and Jesus rose again, and that belief is salvation. And that adding any works to that, means not being saved (Romans 4:5). We can discuss other issues beyond that. But I have found that this first one statement, usually ends the “unity” after a little discussion.

  69. “Josh, I’d be worried about that if John Calvin were God. But he’s not God. He was just a man”

    Dude, I know that. I’m not even a Calvin fan. However, sometimes wisdom knows when and where to pick a fight.

  70. Andy says:

    Jesus spoke pretty plainly about things, and since He is Wisdom….. 🙂

  71. Jesus didn’t visit the house of sinner and then urinate on the kitchen table. Whatever man, I was interested in the convo on ecumenicism, but not in getting Michale riled up over Calvin for no reason.

    I’m out.

  72. Kevin H says:

    Hey Andy and Northstar,

    Just for fun before Michael shows up, maybe you guys could say some derogatory things about J.I. Packer, Jerry Lee Lewis, and cats, too. You know, add a little more fuel to the fire.

  73. Andy says:

    Jesus certainly caused a terrible ruckus in the house of Simon the Pharisee. I’m not sure why this doesn’t count as conversation, anyway. But as we see, everyone defines words differently.

  74. Andy says:

    These things being said, cause “fuel to the fire”? Well, that sounds like a stronghold. So I’ll go away. Bye. 🙂

  75. Michael says:

    Well now…where do I begin?

    I really don’t concern myself too much with people who haven’t read Calvin or who have no concept of what really is in church history.

    Ignorant people say ignorant things.

    That’s what they do.
    Some of it makes me laugh…”replacement theology” is a really silly term for what the whole church believed for 1800 years before it was “replaced” with dispensationalism.

    The ecumenical unity I speak of, that Brodersen spoke of…is a unity in the Spirit.

    The Bible is objective truth rendered subjectively by fallen men.
    Thus, we will always have differences in interpretation and practice.

    Some of us prefer to stand on the shoulders of those who went before us to make our subjective decisions, some prefer to believe that they have such a measure of the Spirit that they can go it alone.

    We all have relatives we don’t invite over for Christmas…

  76. Bob Sweat says:

    Thank you Michael!

  77. Northstar says:

    Kevin,

    I love Cats, never been a Dog person

  78. Northstar says:

    Amen Andy, let God be true and every man a liar! Its the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth

  79. fyi says:

    @62: I am not even close to being a Calvinist but your comments are ignorant of the facts. If you took time to read John Calvin, you would see absolute vitriol for the pope and Catholicism. Catholic-lite? Not a chance…

  80. papiaslogia says:

    “Amen – Let God be true and every man a liar. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.”

    And if that truth be “new truth”…..or truth that doesn’t have any historical foundation preceding it, then very likely that thing you call the “truth” ….it ain’t.

    Or if that “truth” causes you to love less those who view things differently…it probably ain’t.

    Probably best to speak well of all… including the dead saints who have trodden before us.

  81. Bob says:

    “The Bible is objective truth rendered subjectively by fallen men.
    Thus, we will always have differences in interpretation and practice.”

    This is one on the most important statements in this whole thread.

    When I read the other thread which mentioned Rob Bell it become loud and clear that the way to error isn’t knowing scripture, it is ignoring and subjecting scripture to whatever whim and desire the interpreter is attempting fulfill.

    What do I mean? There is no way, either by scientific, cultural or via direct word for word translation, that marriage in scripture can be expanded beyond men and women to those of the same sex. To deny this is to deny the scriptures as the finale source and demonstrate an unwillingness to be subject to them.

    Yes there are difficulties interpreting and defining laws and practice dealing with multiple wives and non-wife (mistresses/concubine) relationships from the scriptures, but same sex? No way.

    Oh well, my comment is way out of context for this thread. While I won’t observe Mass with my Catholic friends I will rejoice with them that Jesus is Messiah and Lord!

    Thanks Michael for the clarity in your position!

  82. Steve, your #49,

    I don’t owe you or anyone else an apology.

    She launched a campaign against the church I called home, relentlessly savaged and maligned my pastor and guest speakers and did everything possible to drive a wedge between my pastor and his dad.

    This is not “doubling down”, it’s a simple restatement of fact.

    Have a day.

  83. Bob says:

    Andy

    You wrote this:

    “God tells us in His Word to abandon lies, and to believe only His Word.”

    Now a question (not a troll); How can the hearer of His Word “abandon lies” when most believers hear God’s scriptures filtered by the organization or interpreters they put their faith in?

    To expand the question further:

    Calvinist read and listen through the voice of Calvin, Catholics through the RCC, Lutherans through theirs, Pentecostals through theirs, and on …

    When I was young a record and a good analog system that cost a lot produced the best quality sound. I would sit with headphones or the volume way up to hear all those great highs and lows. Then digital came out and now my iPhone, combined with a good set of ear buds produces a far better sound than my old records. The bonus is they never wear out, unlike the old records, no matter how often I play my songs.

    How we hear God’s word counts big time! So how do we get a better sound?

  84. Steve Wright says:

    G- my mistake. In that case, you are justified with every right to spew as much hate as possible in return. That’s exactly what Jesus did, isn’t it. Hate those who hate you. Curse those who persecute you. Especially the widows in our midst.

    Well done, sir. And you’re passive aggressive “have a day” comment that has worn so tired is nonetheless, duly noted.

    I would quote a verse I cited on my facebook this week given the remarkably similar experiences to your church’s history that I actually am presently enduring but it is from Peter’s epistle so you have said before that is merely suggestion to you and does not have the authority of the red letters. Though as noted above, you might dust those off Gospels and reread what the Lord said.

    (Have a nice weekend, blog community. I can disagree with someone like Jackie and still defend that person when rudely, personally insulted by some man who won’t put his name to the insult in this public forum. The irony that this began with her circulating attacks on MY former church, and closes with my defense of her is rich indeed)

  85. Xenia says:

    For you Francis fans, he just went on record saying the Koran is a prophetic book of peace.

    That’s a heck of a thing for the so-called Vicar of Christ to say, even if he said it in a futile attempt to stop Islamic violence.

    That’s the kind of ecumenism I am very much against. Another example is the National Cathedral welcoming Muslims in for a prayer service with the “Very Rev’d Gina” telling the crowd that “we worship the same God.” No, we do not, Rev’d Gina.

    As for me, I believe the Orthodox Church contains the fullness of the faith and is the Original Church spoken of in the New Testament and by the Fathers. I am not remotely “ecumenical.” However, I am not about to judge the salvation of anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord.

  86. Steve Wright,
    You’re an angry guy for a pastor.

    I’m really not worth your bandwidth.
    Have a weekend.

  87. papiaslogia says:

    Xenia – I agree with your #87.

  88. Neo says:

    I’m all for inclusiveness, trying to see the Kingdom of God has having boundaries beyond petty religion and self righteous dogma that is more concerned about being right than being righteous. But when truth is being diluted, even sabotaged, I get more than a little irritated. The Pope is beginning to irritate me.

  89. Jean says:

    Xenia,

    “For you Francis fans, he just went on record saying the Koran is a prophetic book of peace.”

    Where did Pope Francis say that?

    Here is the quote I found from the Huffington Post:

    “‘They (Muslims) say: ‘No, we are not this, the Koran is a book of peace, it is a prophetic book of peace’.’

    Francis said he had made the suggestion of a global condemnation of terrorism by Islamic leaders in talks on Friday with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan.

    ‘I told the president that it would be beautiful if all Islamic leaders, whether they are political, religious or academic leaders, would speak out clearly and condemn this because this would help the majority of Muslim people,’ he said.”

  90. Xenia says:

    Jean, you are right. The Pope did say exactly what you said he said. My mistake for just assuming my FB friends was quoting accurately. Thank you for making the correction.

    Forgive me.

  91. Xenia says:

    I am not a fan of Francis and I was quite happy to believe the worst about him!

  92. Jean says:

    Not a problem Xenia. I saw the same or a similar quote.

  93. Jean says:

    I’m a fan of just about anyone who is working for peace and reconciliation in this broken world. I hope Pope Francis has a long tenure. In my opinion, he is the kind of Pope that is needed at this time in history. I’m only speaking for myself.

  94. The papacy IS the anti christ. Used by satan to deceive the elect.Like the guy all you want, but he understands the position he holds.

  95. Jean says:

    “Well, that sounds like a stronghold.”

    Yep, Andy was right.

  96. Jessica says:

    Why do the born again christian always rag on the Catholics, but the Catholics never ever say anything bad about the born again’s? Ok most of the time Catholics I know are all cool, you guys really study and know your Bible. I dont get it, I mean they wanna save the world, and invite hookers to church and clap when there is an alter call, but some members, will actually snub you if you are or were catholic. Hey, I see my old priest from when I was a kid, told him I go to CC and he was all like good for you, love one Jesus. Never heard a bad word. Besides I now see all churches have their share of issues, so Born Again people, I am gonna use the words I hear, Jesus does not want us to judge, for He is the only one who can judge and love on everyone, to me that mean Catholics too.

  97. Andrew says:

    Jessica, the Lutherans are probably more similar to the Catholics in their understanding of born again than CC people. And it was MLD who equated the papacy with the anti-Christ. If you recognize that MLD is a Lutheran and Lutherans recognize Catholic baptism it gets fairly interesting. I think we all need to be less sensitive and understand that their is a huge difference between the institution and the people that inhabit it.

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