The End of the “No Talk” Rule
“Gossip is a sin that most of us feel we are not guilty of, and which most of us are very guilty of. Gossip may be defined as saying anything negative, whether true or not, to anyone about the pastor or about the ministry. If there are things wrong, take it to the Lord in prayer. Tell absolutely no one, including your spouse. Do not repeat anything that would cast aspersion on the ministry in any way. Doing so dishonors Christ and His cause.
But, you say, what do you do if there are real problems? Pray about them and forget them. If that doesn’t work, take your concerns directly and only to the pastor himself, and share with him honestly. If that doesn’t work, resign, and move on. Under no circumstances should you ever say anything negative about the pastor or the ministry to anyone, even after you’ve quit.
In a situation where something in the church is so completely wrong that the sheep in the body are in spiritual danger, then say nothing to anybody, resign, and move on. If the church is a Calvary Chapel affiliate, then take your concerns and share them privately with Pastor Chuck or with Oden Fong, then drop it; leave it alone. Let them handle it. Trust God. He’ll correct the situation. But do not gossip. It is a terrible sin before God.”
The Ministry of the Assisting Pastor
While most Calvary Chapel’s no longer use this little pamphlet, the ethos in it has been deeply embedded in the culture as long as I can remember.
I called it the “no talk” rule.
No matter what is going on, no matter what kind of scoundrel the pastor is…keep your mouth shut.
Former Calvary Chapel Association board member Wayne Taylor of Calvary Chapel Seattle blew that rule to smithereens yesterday.
In a lengthy email sent out to CC pastors, Taylor explained why he was no longer a board member along with the news that he has been removed by the CCA as the regional overseer for the Pacific Northwest.
He included in the letter correspondence that detailed the CCA agenda against Brian Brodersen and revealed the depths of contempt that the old guard holds him in.
The bottom line is that the CCA is now demanding a full split…you’re either with them or against them and the line is drawn clearly with Brodersen and his Calvary Global Network.
These bullying tactics will have little impact on local pastors who have pastored their churches through the split.
It does impact missionaries who draw support from churches affiliated with both…the threat of being cut off by CCA member churches for doing so is real.
Those who are caught in the middle should speak up and stand up.
The “no talk” rule has been broken.
Freedom from tyranny is just a few sentences away…
Michael,
Any chance of posting the email from LT? Or the correspondence related to the CCA agenda?
Papias,
I’m not sure if it’s under copywrite.
I have a few copies… 🙂
That freaking pamphlet.
Ohhhh, that nasty no-talk rule. My ex-pastor and his wife at Calvary shamed me into silence.
5 years out, finally silent NO MORE.
Dear Michael, you have suffered so much and have seen so much suffering. And, yet, you still manage to have hope for what’s left. Alas. It’s hard to share your hope that “outing” the mental midgets at CCA will fix much. Don’t get me wrong. I abhor what they are doing and they certainly deserve everything they get. However, Brodersen has his own baggage. He has failed to come out against the sick history of his own denomination (Ohhhh …. I said the ‘D” word!) and has further failed to set standards for those with whom he has to do at present. On the issue of protection against pedophiles or putting a seducer of the female sheep (adulterer) back into the pulpit, he is woefully silent and that just don’t fly in the present climate of things. I know about all the history of being free to follow the Holy Spirit, and not wanting to have the restraints like a denomination, etc., etc., etc.. Well…Gee!…that’s really worked out! Besides, it was always unbiblical to operate that way. We do not live unto ourselves or die unto ourselves; when one member suffers we all suffer; etc., etc..
I applaud the honesty of Wayne Taylor, but it’s not enough. There is still too much leaven on all sides of the split and it condemns them all to spiritual mediocrity unless they all come clean. The new revelations on your own site demand statements from the leaders of all sides of the split and these effeminates are still silent! Yes, effeminates! … or Cowards! … or just plain woosies! All work for me! The Bible says people can confess Him with their mouth, but deny Him with their deeds. Well…it’s way past time for easy talk. It’s time for deeds!! It’s time to have concern for the sheep first and then the witness we give to the world. Right now all of that is suffering. I don’t see anything left of CC that’s worth saving.
The people and the good pastors–now that’s another story. They all have choices to make.
Why not try this? Go back to our faith. Let’s believe that God really does love us and that He’s not stupid or without resources and that we don’t have to keep working under any CC tent to be successful at ministering to anyone. We can actually start over, entreat God for His will, and treat Biblical policies with the reverence that should have always been there. These things were usurped by the worship of high profile leaders of which many have to repent and by the scummy leaders who allowed it for themselves. A good and humble leader would never have accepted the unqualified worship. A good and humble leader would never go back into the pulpit after sleeping with someone who was not his wife. The house needs a cleaning. However, the prognosis is good if we quit looking back and finally go forward.
JM,
I’m a pragmatist.
1600 churches aren’t disappearing tomorrow.
If we can influence any to better things, then we influence the whole.
This exposure of the duplicity of some “leaders” by one of their own is huge…
“In a situation where something in the church is so completely wrong that the sheep in the body are in spiritual danger, then say nothing to anybody, resign, and move on.”
How did this not set off alarm bells with anyone? How cultish. Yikes.
Wow, I knew the no talk rule was out there but I did not know there was a pamphlet about it and that gossip was is defined as only talking about negative about a pastor or the church……….truth or not….. don’t even tell your spouse?!!! notice it says to resign….assuming that only those in leadership will see the flaws of the pastor. the sheep see nothing. lol
JoelG, right!
“This exposure of the duplicity of some “leaders” by one of their own is huge…”
that’s the most bothersome thing… “the letter correspondence that detailed the CCA agenda against Brian Brodersen and revealed the depths of contempt that the old guard holds him in”…
If you have theological disagreements, fine… get them out there and discuss them and hash them out.
But this is over “style” and the fact that Brian isn’t Pastor Chuck. God never called him to be that.
Michael,
While my hope in God remains fixed, my hope in finding godly leaders to stand up for their sheep and against the scum in their own camp has been on life-support. I will say this–I would like very much if you are right and that others are influenced to do the right thing. Taylor deserves support. Let us pray he is not an anomaly, his actions are contageous and others will stand with him.
I hope and pray that of those 1600 churches who have not done so, they will wake up and realize it was Christ who died for their sins–not Chuck Smith/Calvary Chapel. I saw some confusion over that when I was part of the CC cult. Pastors need to have the integrity to stand up and call things wrong where it applies and continue to do so. Laziness, as we have seen, is the enemy of good leadership.
I would really like to hear from Joe Focht. Isn’t he the one that is organizing all of the senior pastor conferences and the international conferences and has been financing the work of Don McClure regarding CCA who was on staff in CC Philadelphia for awhile. Is Joe Focht the president of the CCA or is the president of the CCA Don McClure? Do pastors that get on or off the CCA leadership counsel, the prerogative of Joe Focht and Don McClure? Just asking clarifying questions from Joe Focht here. Aren’t they specifically the ones who claim they have taken the mantle of Chuck Smith? Either way, I am waiting for Joe Focht to speak from his bully pulpit on what is going on with CCA. I’m not expecting anything, because there is this no talk rule. But if there is to be any kind of reform to the Moses Model I would think Joe Focht and his ilk would need to address this from the leadership and implement policies where Joe Focht and pastors of his ilk put severe limits to their unlimited power in their fiefdoms.
The “no talking” rule was why I bailed from CC. I became a home study leader, and leader of the prayer team at a CC. I was handed that “little book” and told to follow it. I was shocked. I can’t operate that way. And, that rule played out in spades, and filtered down to the “shadow leaders” of the church. “Shadow leaders” being those that gave lots of money, and did whatever the “lead pastor’s” wife wanted them to do.
Steve,
You won’t hear from Focht or McClure…not in any real way.
They are the ringleaders of this crap.
Michael, I know we won’t hear from them but at least others can take note of who the ringleaders are. That in itself may be helpful to stop this poison even if in a small way.
Perhaps this will help calvayites assuage any guilt feelings they may feel when purchasing and reading your book when it comes out ??
hi Anne!
Michael
For what it is worth, I think you’re right in “calling out” the situation. CC has in many ways become the opposite of what it set out to be in the beginning. It is now an “institution”. Institutions are generally slow to recognize and correct what often becomes “institutional behavior”. The “no talk” rule and the “Moses Model” is very similar to the RCC culture of “Father Says…” After $2 billion in settlements and 14 dioceses/archdioceses filing for bankruptcy protection, they seemed to have gotten the message that the old model was a recipe for disaster. Yet, even now some cling to the old days. My guess is that it will take something similar in CC to break the pattern, but by then it could be too late. I really do mourn for what it once was and what it became. Hopefully a remnant of the good folk will let their voices be heard.
Duane- I think that both the RCC and CC had a goodly amount of corruption at their very roots fairly early on, as a serious in-depth study of either can indicate.
I base my opinion on being raised RC, studying its history later as an adult, being exposed to CC at 16 and marrying into a family that was part of its earliest foundations -even decades pre- Foursquare, Corona and Corona Del Mar.
Thanks, everyone.
I’m wiped out…going to go get some wood….
Duane,
Institutions are simply organizations. They give something structure. In my estimation they are needed and helpful. They are not bad per say. CC seems to want the organic Spirit led nature without any structure and that is of course until CCA was birthed. It’s so ironic because CCA is the most rigid, cult-like idealistic, tyrannically organization ever conceived in the life of the church besides maybe the RCC in the past. The CCA is the epitome of the potential faults churches find with denominational structures. Recognizing the potential shortfalls in denominations is exactly what characterizes CCA to a tee. Sad.
Also with familial ties who are still loyalists firmly entrenched in the whole debacle I might add.
#19 Anne
I think with success and (especially “and”) power, corruption is the greatest temptation…
On an unrelated note, but not really as one thing leads to another, I’ve seen another side to this no talk rule, and while it wasn’t why I finally left CCs, it was definitely the final straw (pun intended as CC luuuuuv straw-men).
Its really sad how “leaders” are so insecure they pull this nonsense, EVEN UPON THEIR OWN FAMILIES!!!
I don’t know why it took me so long to notice the link between paranoid guys (with little-man’s disease) and their fearful wives and kids!
My point is, it’s not just a problem with the man, but the abuse foisted upon his family who won’t tolerate dissent of any kind or even just requests for clarification.
Not only are these poor women and kids afraid, they’re afraid to tell anyone!
You’d be surprised how lonely the families can feel.
#21 Steve
Indeed, “institutions” in themselves are neutral and “institutional behavior” can be good and affirming. When “institutional behavior” goes the other way, however, it is really hard to break…
Truth, Duane. Happens quite quickly. And as commonly in the church as in secular circles which seems even more disheartening considering the assumed power of scripture, the HS, etc.
(((Dusty))) Love you!!
Anne:
“Also with familial ties who are still loyalists firmly entrenched in the whole debacle I might add.”
We here share your trial. We have loved ones who have turned against us because they refuse to believe that CC is not the true church. With that perverted leaven inside of them, everything that is said to them that causes doubt in that perfection is, therefore, of the devil. Interestingly, another characteristic of a cult.
May God send comfort to you and the ones who made it out.
Thank you for your kind words,JM.
Love to you to Anne. (((hugs)))))
You are most welcome, Anne.
Good to see your name among the commenters, Dusty. You always seem so full of grace.
It seems I am being called away from my desk, so off to duty.
May God be in the midst of all conversations and bless us all with His peace today.
If what Wayne has said is true, and I have no reason to doubt him, then it reveals the deep bitterness and resentment among some of the CCA leaders. Malcom Wild’s comments are particularly devoid of forgiveness, reasonableness, and Christian love. It is a picture of guilt by association. And, McClure’s voicemail? Is that how you “let someone go”? Not even possessing the decency to talk personally at the very least, if not take the time to meet with Wayne face to face? And these guys are supposed to be the examples of leadership?? Wow.
There are precious few true gentlemen in CC leadership. (If I need to explain what a gentleman is, then you don’t get it anyway.) But if we cannot extend courtesy and dignity in dealing with one another, we are missing some essential qualities of Christian character.
goodness, these leaders sure wouldn’t have wanted Jesus to show up with a haircut, shirt and jeans among their “flock”
He might just have stood up and called them out right there in front of everybody…
to use a quote that i picked up from dusty some years back, … just sayin 🙂
gossip is very evil, but it seems we need to be more discerning as to just what constitutes “gossip,” eh?
That pamphlet was one of the nails in my CC coffin. Hopefully, Wayne finds his footing. In different doctrine, at a different denom, with an actual board, and embraces pre-wrath..
Wonder where Steve Wright lands in all this?
#31 David
“But if we cannot extend courtesy and dignity in dealing with one another, we are missing some essential qualities of Christian character.”
Well said, and absolutely true…
@32
I agree and I think the entire board needs to step down and let them elect an new one, hopefully men who fear God and love the brethren. The CCA council’s argument for their existence has been “this is what Chuck wanted.” The construct of this board left the design of “what Chuck intended” long ago.
These “pastors” gossip about the sheep all the time. When they get caught it’s no big deal.
Way to many thoughts in confluence between this post and the Coy post. For now, two observations that are systemic to all of this. With all of Pastor Chuck’s gifts and heart, people who knew him consistently attest to two things about him;
1) he never wanted to lead a movement,
2) and he never wanted to deal with problems, which means that “erring on the side of grace” was the easier way out.
The thing is, many of those who were sent out by Chuck or tried to follow his examples, did want to lead movements, but still don’t want to deal with problems, so they dealt with them the way he did.
I’m not trying to offer excuses for anyone. These are just realities of the CC culture in many places. Chuck didn’t teach people by teaching them how to do things. he taught them by saying watch me and do what I do. There is a big difference. When you teach people by actually showing them how do do something (which is what discipleship is) it takes time, investment, and correction (see dealing with problems). When you try to teach by example only, there is no correction, therefore no accountability, and you really aren’t discipline anyone but people end up thinking that this is discipleship when it isn’t.
Chuck found himself in positions he never wanted to be in and didn’t handle them well. Others who were unable to deal with problems on their own watched and did likewise. Those who can figure out how to fix things avoided similar ends. Man, way to many things to say about this.
My encouragement to others is to learn how to deal with problems. Become a troubleshooter. Learn how to avoid problems in advance. Don’t avoid them, learn from them, be humble, be correctable. Be a teacher and a student. Or get out of the big chair.
This is a character/ maturity issue. Not doctrinal . Not a communications issue in terms of Chuck saying one thing to one man and something else to another .The divide us merely one consequence of the core issue.
The men in authority have no capacity to collaborate productively when encountering conflict in the slightest degree. The Calvary model blinded young men to the relational dynamics of the Kingdom by associating anointing with authority rather then associating character with authority . The Calvary Model produced this. One side is trying to perpetuate it, the other is trying to ignore it and dress it up in new clothes .
When looking at the lack of care for his people and the division among His servant leaders , Jesus wept.
don mc clure is scheduled to speak at Calvary Chapel Rialto this sunday as the pastor is in Israel.
I doubt though, that he will say anything in regards to this matter. He most likely adheres to the “no talk” rule. ?
Corby at #38 is the best thing I’ve read today.
Absolutely true about all discipleship and church leadership everywhere and obviously for this current point.
There is more to say on this and Corby, I hope you keep saying it. Those are words of life.
So excellent.
Richard,
McClure may say something there… CC Rialto was one of the first scandals we covered…they loathe me.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/augustweb-only/53.0a.html
http://musclys.blogspot.com/2005/07/test-of-faith.html
DavidM,
Wayne didn’t write a word or describe a situation that I hadn’t heard from close sources before.
I think he’s completely honest in this letter and I’m still stunned at just how honest he was.
@41 – Is that Rob Murphy from CCBC Twin Peaks? Either way thanks so much for your encouragement! I’m working on ways to share ideas more on this in a constructive way. Your words give me more motivation to do so!
I think many receptors of the letter have missed the most damning point in the letter:
Under “Updates” at the CCA website, where the letters addressing the split are found, you will see what is the main allegation CCA makes that it was Brodersen who initiated the split:
WE WANTED THESE LETTERS TO BE AVAILABLE AND PERFECTLY CLEAR. IF YOU NOTE WHEN THESE LETTERS ARE DATED, IT MIGHT HELP BRING SOME CLARITY TO THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS.
– In Him, The CCA Council –”
Wayne’s letter makes it absolutely clear that it was CCA that initiated the split and began the process of damning Brodersen with their, as Wayne seems to infer, “misrepresentations.”
As to many of the comments here and not to defend against any of them and their validity, I do think one needs to keep in mind that Calvary Chapel is not as denominational and homogenous as many would like to portray. In fact, quite a few of theCC churches either never embraced the offensive and incorrect tenets of CC, including the Moses Model, disempowered Boards and the like. One would also have to include quite a few of the larger, mega church Cc’s, including Bill Richie and other churches led by senior pastors who once were among the CC Senior Pastors Conference board led by Chuck. So I humbly request that the broad strokes many seem to be painting here be narrowed.
That being said, it is absolutely true these tenets are clearly cult like (and I lived in one of the classic cults of all time, Synanon, so I know of what I speak) and were largely embraced in that “movement.” In fact memorialized in the Clvary Distinctives book as well as many of Larry Taylor’s booklets. If that is true and fair, it also must then be acknowledged that many CC churches have since rectified and turned away from them.
As to those who call on Brodersen to correct many issues in these churches it just will not happen any more than it would happen when Chuck was alive. The whole point of CGN seems to once and for all remove the notion of a central authority who will judge and issue correction to other independent churches.
Thanks for your ear.
Jeff,
Correct on all points, as usual…especially about who initiated the split.
Forgive me as on the road to making my point about what was written on the CCA website, I failed to make my point. Oh the joys of living in a 66 year old brain.
The point is that the statement made above begs the inference that Brodersen initiated the split and there CCA are the true pious ones who are keeping the flame alive. Folks as a lawyer and if this were a civil court of law, that would be slam dunk actionable fraud and misrepresentation.
This is the “leadership” with who many who support or align with CCA choose to support and align with. Sheep indeed and possibly the saddest collateral issue to this sordid matter.
thanks again.
Jeff, well said. in fact, “I do think one needs to keep in mind that Calvary Chapel is not as denominational and homogenous as many would like to portray” is what I was thinking when reading the Coy article on the newspaper site. The reporter kept referring to the relationships as though there was oversight from the CC churches when there was/is not.
However, where these problems in leadership methodology exist, they exist, and where they don’t, they don’t. having said that, I think the sad reality is it almost always exists by default in most places even if unrecognized at first glance. I’ve visited tiny CCs in various parts of the US, and these guys behave and think of themselves in the same way that they think of Chuck. They have an image of him in their minds, accurate or not, and expect others to treat them to that degree without any frame of reference. It’s weird. It’s inherited. Sometimes it’s subtle, others its obvious.
I’m in no way trying to broad brush in a dismissive manner. What I’m trying to say, from experience, is that one can safely assume “the worst” going in but hope for the best, that these things aren’t true of a given CC.
“The whole point of CGN seems to once and for all remove the notion of a central authority who will judge and issue correction to other independent churches.”
If true, tragic and sad. The Apostles evidenced their ongoing filling and empowering of the Spirit by the by exhibiting in their leadership and oversight of churches maturing relational skills
With this emotional capacity they were able to form and sustain deep bonds of love within themselves as leaders and with those they served . Koinonia was not a concept . It was a relational , communal dynamic that they nurtured and “protected” within individual churches and in overseeing multiple churches.
In the Kingdom, the development of social capital matters to Jesus.
Let me clarify Victorious. I believe CGN embraces the notions of fellowship, including accountability, but it is not institutionalized into one central controlling body or authority figure. There is no Moses as there, for the most part, is no embracing of the Moses Model and the misinterpretation of “don’t touch God’s Annointed.”
So relational skills, mentoring and the like, I would suggest will improve and even flourish with a new work in CGN.
@50 – Victorious, and others, something to consider. In statements like the one you quoted, and your response (which I agree with in context), we are mixing contexts.
In the first century, so far as I know, churches existed in a legal vacuum. If Paul installed Timothy in Ephesus (or wherever), and Timothy did something stupid, or one of his staff did, a member of the church in Ephesus couldn’t sue Paul for it. This is not the case today.
In many of these conversations about Moses Model, governance, scandal and accountability, we are confusing the concepts of legal liability and responsibility with the kind of personal accountability and oversight Victorious eludes to and should be in place.
I, for one, do not think that one church should be legally and therefore financially responsible, in most instances, for the sins of related churches. I do think that there needs to be personal accountability which is based on relationship. I think everyone here agrees with that. The key is deep, personal relationship, the kind where if you disappoint someone else it will hurt and losing that relationship will mean something. That is the “pressure” that can be applied, not simply a lawsuit.
A good marriage works because of this kind of relationship, love, and accountability. The kinds of relationships that Paul had with Timothy, Titus, Philemon, etc.
Where there is no respect, no personal relationship, there will be no accountability. Look at the Hank Hanegrafestein thread. Look at the Driscoll situation. Laws mean nothing.
My point is that we need to separate legal accountability and relational accountability in these conversations because they aren’t the same thing, and too often I seem them intertwined and confused.
I hope that you are on target in your assessment Sir Sheckstein. I have somewhat of a bias that is colored by the pain of having to deal with the decisions and oversight authority that arose from primarily CGN notables serving in and contributing to the leadership capacities of Calvaries acrioss a couple of states and countries and then being politely ignored or patronized while in crisis over an extended period of time ; never really engaged in a productive way , although service in each of those churches and teams of people was the opposite.
I never saw those skills exercised nor valued not even recognized as something of value to acquire.
By default I have gone elsewhere.
Ugh typing on an IPhone . “My service “.
Corby
I gonna hand to you the legal analysis cap and an “A” for your thoughts. On the money. Only problem with you representing the legal issues is that in your picture near your name, you are smiling. That will certainly have to be changed and even go if we are to give credence to any future legal analysis from your quarters as I have yet to see a good legal mind with a smile, starting with me!
Blessings
@55 LOL. I was putting on my fake pastor smile. I never smile. Ever. 😐
What a mess. The split is a good thing IMO.
Is it at all possible to see this email? I do believe your reporting, Michael, but it sounds like quite a piece of writing.
Corby at #38
Became aware of Chuck Smith when I lived on Church Street across from the first church building around 1965.
Over the years my knowledge of how Chuck operated gives me a bit different take.
I honestly think that Chuck believed that if he turned situations over to God that HE would indeed handle them all. He was a Calvinist in that way.
He “faithed” it all.
But there is the human responsibility side that he seemly and often neglected in the eyes of others.
The loop hole was the “no talk” rule. Very cultic in some respects. Control?
No voice of reason was tolerated if they brought up problems that were observed.
I was invited to “leave and start my own church” if I did not like how things were being done. That was the standard response to anyone if they brought to the light of day any problems.
John Wimber of the Vineyard Churches got the same line I did.
Some times I wonder to myself if God took Chuck home because Calvary Chapel is indeed over…
I attend Oden Fong’s church which is not a Calvary Chapel…speaks volumes to me.
All of us Calvary Chapel alumni once had our hearts beat as one before the Lord. But today that just is not the case.
In Mark 3:25 it says, “If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.”
Jesus Christ said that because it is truth.
Similarly, a family splintered by feuding will fall apart.
Truth can be accurately defined “as that which delineates that which is.”
Calvary Chapels are all a shadow of the original Calvary Chapel in the early Jesus People days. Today they can’t even compare to those glorious times we all had back then in the days of our youth.
As it has been pointed out, it is the faithful Calvary Chapel self sacrificing missionaries out in the trenches who will suffer the most from all of this carnality.
God is still on His throne and soon enough all of this will get sorted out.
Surfer51 – “I honestly think that Chuck believed that if he turned situations over to God that HE would indeed handle them all. He was a Calvinist in that way.
He “faithed” it all.
But there is the human responsibility side that he seemly and often neglected in the eyes of others.”
Very well put. Sadly, in his attempt to trust God with a situation, which one should do, he also neglected scripture and the aspects of being a pastor to do it. Which is sad. Which is understandable to anyone who has “been there done that.” Not excusable, but understandable.
McClure Focht pulley Cahill wild all power hungry and very slanderous abuse
They have destroyed the faith of many The no talk rule covers up who they really are ,religious thugs
The harshest words Jesus had were for the abusive religious leaders
And the response of CCA to Him no doubtedly would be don’t get bitter!