Just Shut Up

You may also like...

79 Responses

  1. Em says:

    while i do not think we’re very good at analyzing, let alone solving these egregious abuses please don’t ever shut up until ‘they’ STOP IT!

    the very veracity of the Faith depends on calling out the perps – there’s been some discussion of present day corporate model church structure… such a distortion – it has given the Church its own subset of Mad Men, perhaps some began with the best of intentions – many did not…

  2. Papias says:

    Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. Michael says:

    Em,

    I was actually going to take a break this week for prayer and restoring myself.
    This sort of stuff just makes me even more committed to staying up…and never shutting up.

  4. Em says:

    Michael, take that break, if at all possible… if not this week, then next week? something tells me your Phoenix Preacher will be here waiting when you return…

  5. Captain Kevin says:

    Good for you, Michael, and others like Wenatchee and Alex!! One thing the church should be is a refuge, a harbor of safety, a place where the downtrodden can call out, “Sanctuary.” Shame on those who try to silence the voices that call for help and reform! God has many millstones awaiting their necks.

  6. Captain Kevin says:

    I agree with Em. Take that break. Be refreshed in the Lord, then come back to slay the dragons.

  7. Anne says:

    Michael, if you want to stay up and not shut up, you absolutely need time to recharge your batteries. If it can’t be a whole week, incorporating as little as 30 minutes a day, and perhaps a one whole day a week of turning off the outside noise for prayer/meditation and good self care is as necessary as breathing and eating. Snatching even 10 min breaks to just be still and breathe can help tremendously! So grateful for your voice & passion. Even our dear friend Chuck B took time outs in his garden and kitchen, immersing himself in simple pleasures far removed from the garbage he was dedicated to revealing :-).

  8. Michael says:

    Thank you, CK…and I’m thankful too for those other voices.

    Anne,

    I have learned much from CB…and knowing when to break was one of those things.
    The other thing was to never shut up. 🙂

  9. Kevin H says:

    “If there are things wrong, take it to the Lord in prayer. Tell absolutely no one, including your spouse. Do not repeat anything that would cast aspersion on the ministry in any way. Doing so dishonors Christ and His cause.

    But, you say, what do you do if there are real problems? Pray about them and forget them. If that doesn’t work, take your concerns directly and only to the pastor himself, and share with him honestly. If that doesn’t work, resign, and move on. Under no circumstances should you ever say anything negative about the pastor or the ministry to anyone, even after you’ve quit.

    In a situation where something in the church is so completely wrong that the sheep in the body are in spiritual danger, then say nothing to anybody, resign, and move on…….Trust God. He’ll correct the situation. But do not gossip. It is a terrible sin before God.”

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  10. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    Amazing how that concept gets repeated in different ways over the years…

  11. Miss ODM says:

    I have found it is the one who has the most to hide who screams the loudest against whistle-blowers.

  12. Michael says:

    Miss ODM,

    Often times, that is the case.
    It’s all about protecting the institution and those that run it.

  13. Em says:

    i read the link on what not to do… most of it i can agree with… and i suspect that there are or have been quite a few watchdog blogs that don’t serve the cause of Christ well

    the Phoenix Preacher is not on a witch hunt, nor scandal mongering… what Michael posts deals with treachery and danger to the Body of Christ – while he is gracious and allows much latitude to the commenters, he has boundaries and is definitely doing God’s work – period – the healing Jesus resides here

  14. Alex says:

    AMEN! As a true believer and supporter of the Bill of Rights…I will NEVER shut up..nor will anyone shut me up.

    They can go …………. I think you can fill in the blank.

    I don’t succumb to bullies, whether it is abusing corrupt “pastors” or the terrible Ideology of Islam.

    SPEAK OUT. Don’t shut up.

    Great job Michael, great article!

  15. Alex says:

    BTW, it looks like one of our Senators here in Idaho is going to bring a lawsuit to try and stop the influx of Islamic Refugees into our State. Why? Because we are SPEAKING THE F UP and are strongly opposed to those bullies and that terrible Ideology.

  16. Alex says:

    Ms. ODM said, “I have found it is the one who has the most to hide who screams the loudest against whistle-blowers.”

    Yup. Very true principle.

  17. Alex, let me see if I have this correct. You are the one of great reason, logic and rhetoric and as you always point out I am a little slow on the uptake, low IQ etc.

    You are a fan of the Bill of Rights and Free Speech and with that zeal you want to shut down the Free Speech of those you disagree with, eliminate their right to free assembly (another part of the 1st amendment) and quash their religious activity … by force of government.

    Do I have that right?

  18. Alex says:

    MLD, no, incorrect.

    I don’t want a govt. taxpayer funded Program shipping in Neo-Nazis into our State.

    We are going to stop this Program.

    Islam is a terrible Ideology and is self-described as being completely opposed to Western Culture, Bill of Rights and Free Speech.

    I will draw Mohammad cartoons and post them all over our area…and then these freaks will try to shoot me and I (and the thousands of other pissed off rednecks) will shoot back.

    Don’t put those Islamic idiots in a bad position. They aren’t going to take over here and they won’t “tolerate” Free Speech so it is best if they go somewhere else where Liberals fear them and will succumb to their bullying.

    If they keep sending them here…there will be blood.

  19. Alex says:

    Unlike you MLD, we are not pussies here in Idaho. We don’t fear death and we don’t fear bullies.

    You pussies in Commiefornia gave away your freedoms many years ago and you aren’t getting them back. You will continue to Reap what you’ve Sown. You will be thirsty, overrun with illegals, afraid to speak against Islam and continue to be morally and financially bankrupt.

    Your decline will continue and when your dead and gone, your children and their children will inherit the culture and society you passed on to them there.

  20. Alex says:

    MLD, your kids and their kids will continue in the fear you demonstrate to them. They will have to be increasingly careful around Islam in Commiefornia and live in fear and give away more and more of their Freedom in the name of peace at any price and political correctness.

    No way to live. They’ve already lost their souls and what it means to be truly free and truly men and women.

    Your heirs will enjoy the fruits of your own cowardice for years to come. Mark my words.

  21. I rest my case.
    Your form of American Patriotism is just as flawed, and on the same grounds as your attempt to fool people into thinking you are a Christian. Do you guys just shoot Muslims or do you scalp them? 🙂

  22. “I don’t want a govt. taxpayer funded Program shipping in Neo-Nazis into our State.”

    There is not a single Neo Nazi in the state of Idaho who was shipped in on a Federal Program – you all migrated voluntarily

  23. Alex says:

    I love Jewish folks, they “co-exist” just fine.

    Idaho has a very small population of real neo-nazis…other than the Islamic Ideologues they are shipping in (thanks to the Feds).

    Commiefornia, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, is a hot-bed for Neo-Nazis…especially Orange County, where you live.

    Heck, you’re a Lutheran and your guy hated the Jews. You Lutheran nazi.

  24. Monica Greenberg says:

    “He then went on the attack with a blog article that labeled all his opposition trolls…which I thought we weren’t supposed to do according to Mr. James own commandment.
    Hypocrisy, thy name is Sam.”
    Brilliant – and thank you for speaking up, not only for victims of abuse, but for the betterment of the church of Jesus Christ.

  25. Back to the bloggers being silenced. I will say this and I know that Michael will go nuts – but it is not meant that way.

    How is an outsider like myself to know that the Tony Jones story is unbiased and complete? What am I to think when I see the 2 biggest voices for feminist Christianity (Rachel Held Evans and Nadia Bolz Weber) support Tony Jones and traveling with a cadre of 11 high profile women to speak at his events?

    His ex wife by her own admission said nothing for 7 years and then came out like the woman scorned in the Naked Pastor blog to the point that we now see by your posting of the attorney’s letter that she has or is very close to disregarding a court order?

    Don’t get me wrong, I take no side and only point to the information is not that clear. My personal opinion is that they are all dysfunctional piss ant people who have this personality trait that leads them to think their lives and thoughts matter.

  26. Alex says:

    Shut up MLD.

  27. “Heck, you’re a Lutheran and your guy hated the Jews. You Lutheran nazi.”

    I have not made public statements – the past 2 days here and on the radio you have. “My guy” may be a nazi but not me – you on the other hand have left the paper trail.

  28. Alex says:

    There is a lot of irony in a man who never shuts up…critiquing an article about pastors saying bloggers should shut up.

    Classic MLD LOL

  29. Col46 says:

    Off topic…but Em, Bobs Big Boy rules!

  30. Alex says:

    I have a paper trail of opposing Naziism and Islam is as much anti-semitic or more than your Guru Martin Luther in “On Jews and their Lies”

    In fact, it is Lutheran Organizations who are part of flooding our area with Nazi sympathetic Islamic Ideologues.

  31. Alex says:

    I think there are many Lutherans who are still on board with Luther’s anti-semitism…you just try to hide it and couch it…and it shows in the Pro-Islam Agenda.

  32. Alex says:

    MLD, are you Pro-Islam?

  33. Alex says:

    Let’s play a game:

    Guess the Author: Hamas or Martin Luther?

  34. Well, you have to assume what I think – but we all now know what you think.

    The only one here who has told anyone to shut up was you at #26.

  35. Alex says:

    “First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.”

    Hamas or Martin Luther?

  36. “MLD, are you Pro-Islam?”
    What does pro islam mean? If it means I am not in favor of killing them – then yes I am.

  37. Alex says:

    “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

    kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

    rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

    me, come and kill him.”

    Hamas or Martin Luther?

  38. Why do you care what a guy said 450 yrs ago when you are saying the same thing today?

  39. Alex says:

    “Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.”

    Hamas or Martin Luther?

    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

    obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

    Hamas or Martin Luther?

  40. Alex says:

    MLD, you’re a Lutheran…I am beginning to understand your affinity for Islam….

  41. Alex says:

    I am not nearly saying the same thing.

    I am opposed to an Ideology that is intolerant, anti-semitic, homophobic, misogynistic, xenophobic and is completely opposed to America and Western Culture.

    Voicing opposition to a bad Ideology and taking a strong self-defense position against a common response to challenging that Ideology through drawing cartoons or speaking against it…is not nearly akin to the Lutheran example of Anti-Semitism and the German historical record of using Luther’s Anti-Semitism to justify the Holocaust.

    Islam is today’s Nazi Germany. You are taking the side of Nazi Germany…but that is understandable b/c you are a Martin Luther follower.

  42. This will be my last comment on this – I am sure that your racism is mild and you just hang with the wrong crowd up there in white mans land.

  43. Alex says:

    Actually I try to avoid the real racists…there are a couple of Neo-Nazi Islam loving Lutherans here…but fortunately they are in the vast minority.

  44. Alex says:

    There is no such thing as “ethnic Islam”…it’s an Ideology and most Muslims are Asians from Indonesia (where they compel Female Genital Mutilation in their laws and practices…and they are the “moderates” of the Islamic world).

    There is such a thing as ethnic Jews (as well as religious Jews).

    The Neo-Nazi lutherans and the Islamic Ideologues want the destruction of those ethnic Jews…similar to what Hitler tried to accomplish (and did to the tune of 6 million) in the Holocaust.

  45. Alex says:

    I am happy to be on the side that opposes both Neo-Nazi Ideology and Islamic Ideology in favor of protecting Ethnic/Racial Jews as well as protecting Gays, Women, Children, Christians, Hindus and pretty much everyone who Islam self-describes as “Infidels”.

  46. Julie Anne says:

    MLD said:

    His ex wife by her own admission said nothing for 7 years and then came out like the woman scorned in the Naked Pastor blog

    A couple of comments:

    Tony Jones has publicly said he was diagnosed with NPD.
    He allegedly had a “spiritual” marriage with another woman while still married to Julie.

    If you understand the dynamics of abuse, the 7 years of silence makes a lot of sense.

  47. Julie Anne says:

    Mr. James is following the well worn path of other abusive leaders and those that enable them by having a separate set of rules for themselves.

    They may speak freely, even authoritatively…but no one dare speak against them.

    Mr. James can go pack sand where the sun never shines, yea and verily, amen.

    Wild applause!

  48. Em says:

    well … 🙂 … i agree with MLD “What does pro islam mean? If it means I am not in favor of killing them – then yes I am.”

    but they are a threat as they harbor an element that does act out … people who will kill you irregardless of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution of the land … and on a lesser, but disrespectful scale expect the law of the land, an orderly society, a democratic land which they exploit, to accommodate their mores no matter how disruptive and destructive their way of life has been proven to be

    Exodus 23:9 instructs do not oppress the foreigner, but that comes right in the middle of instructions for an orderly society – if that foreigner/sojourner chooses to be a citizen, then the laws of the land apply

    i, too, am not in favor of killing them … not in favor of it

  49. Julie Ann – that is not my point. I was asking how we know when a story is unbiased and complete based on a blog report.
    Look, I think they are both abusers and I said last month when it was discussed – bad marriages lead to bad divorces – toxic marriages lead to toxic divorces.

    If NPD = nuts, I agree.

    What do you think of Rachel Held Evans and Nadia Bolz Weber and the cadre of 11 women who are traveling around to speak at his event. They are aware of the situation and I know that RHE said she investigated thoroughly and found no evidence for the claims against T. Jones. (be sure that I don’t like RHE either).

    Just like the Bruce Jenner thing, I think they are all trying to get on a reality show. 😉

  50. Alex says:

    There is irony in MLD defending Tony Jones and his treatment of women…and Islam.

    They go together….

  51. Alex says:

    Hey, at least MLD is being consistent on something for once LOL

  52. Alex – show me where I defended Tony Jones – I said he was abusive and I said he was nuts. You may want to re read what I wrote – it’s in English and not Arabic so you should be able to handle it.

  53. Alex says:

    No, you didn’t say that, you said they were both abusers and were equally responsible.

    You also qualified your “nuts” comment with “if”

    You are a slippery fellow.

  54. You are a chip off the old block – aren’t you?

  55. Julie Anne says:

    They are aware of the situation and I know that RHE said she investigated thoroughly and found no evidence for the claims against T. Jones. (be sure that I don’t like RHE either).

    I don’t recall RHE saying that. What I do recall her saying is to let the court handle it and she wasn’t going to investigate further. I don’t believe she has discussed anything with Julie.

    As far as Nadia and RHE speaking at his events?? I say it’s all about the $$. For RHE to dismiss the countless witnesses who have come forward to back Julie’s testimony really destroys her integrity about defending victims of abuse. One must acknowledge that it would be difficult to live with an NPD spouse without there being at least emotional abuse/emotional abandonment.

  56. Julie Ann – scroll down to RHE response

    http://emergent-nightmares.tumblr.com/post/108173035142/responses-from-rachel-held-evans

    All I am pointing out is that it is confusing to know who is right – but bloggers are always absolutely clear.

    If she now knows that her husband was mentally ill, and that was causing the abuse – why can’t she just drop it? He is mentally ill is he not? Are mentally ill people responsible for their behavior.

    My daughter’s ex husband was mildly abusive but years after the divorce we found out he was bi polar – so the “hatred” stopped.

    Anyway – to my point, I think bloggers at best need to be more careful. Not silenced but more careful.

  57. Em says:

    Col46 does Bob’s Big Boy still rule? it’s a blast from my past 🙂 mid-century past

  58. Julie Anne says:

    “Diligent investigation?” With whom? Not Julie. Obviously not with countless witnesses who confessed and even apologized to Julie on Naked Pastor blog for not speaking out when they saw his behavior.

  59. Everything you say may be true – but you do see the conflicting stories. Can RHE and Nadia be bought off? Perhaps that is the story.

  60. But you still haven’t answered – if T Jones is mentally ill, why is this then still a public topic these 10 yrs later? Doesn’t the diagnosis give the explanation of his behavior now and then?

  61. Ha! Alex doesn’t speak for all of Idaho. 🙂

  62. Michael says:

    I… am careful.
    I don’t have the emotional or spiritual capital to waste on matters I don’t believe in.
    I’ve read all the testimonies from all involved.
    I believe Julie.
    Period.

  63. Anne says:

    MLD- was your son in law a minister? IMO, TJ’s fitness to pastor,in light of his adultery and the lengths he and his cronies have gone to protect his privilege are the paramount issues. When you look under a rotted log, a lot of other muck & creepy crawlies are revealed. May be why one of the qualifications of pastoring is not only to be husband of one wife, but blameless as well- ya think?

  64. Anne, I agree – that is why I choose not to attend his church, read his books or come under any other spiritual situation with him.

    But what about the mental illness? Everyone sidesteps that.

    Perhaps he should not be a pastor because he belongs in a looney bin.

  65. Michael says:

    If we put every pastor with NPD away evangelicalism would collapse.

  66. EricL says:

    I like this Tue Link better (See something, Say something):
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may/if-you-see-something-say-something.html?utm_source=ctdirect-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=9461018&utm_content=354445588&utm_campaign=2013

    Speak up when you see a leader out-of-line. You might just spare far more heartache, more victims, and give the leader a chance to repent.

  67. Anne says:

    MLD – I don’t think anyone is side-stepping his personality disorder – except his cronies maybe.

    Your #65 is true but sad, Michael. Would thin the herd of politicians quite a bit methinks as well.

  68. Xenia says:

    Here’s what I do:

    If I see a pastor (or anyone) doing something that could harm anyone, I speak up.

    If I see a pastor (or anyone) committing sins that are not harming anyone except himself, I keep it to myself, remembering that love covers a multitude of sins.

  69. Dan from Georgia says:

    I know my comment will be buried amongst other comments, but I say to you Michael,….

    KEEP STIRRING THE POT!!!!

  70. Linda Pappas says:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-shore/bible-believing-pastors-and-the-enabling-of-domestic-violence_b_7240602.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

    http://www.thehotline.org/2015/05/abuse-and-mental-illness-is-there-a-connection/

    NPD’s are able to be prosecuted, just as other can be who may have a classified mental illness. Why, because they have not lost touch with reality ( that is, become psychotic) and they do know the difference between right and wrong. NPD’s know what they are doing and take much sadistic pleasure whenever they can get another person to react to their constant exploitation, bullying, trolling, while wearing (knowingly) wearing a mask of insanity. They do what they do, thinking they will never get caught (are rarely are) simply because they have been able insulate themselves via the use of well-meaning and other personalities who seeks to gain the whole world that insures their hidden agenda to maintain power and control. Their proxies circle the wagon when they feel they have been threaten, then play the part of the victim (twisting, distorting, and manipulating the facts to turn the table upon those who they have victimized so that it confuses the truth while discrediting, discounting, silencing, and distracting those who could hold such to an account. They are experts at tap dancing around and putting the focus upon the victim (s), thereby, avoiding being held to an account and to truly ever repent. They use the goodness and vulnerabilities of others to shield, protect, and to speak on their behalf, by using phrases that sounds reasonable and plausible, thus minimizing, justifying, and rationalizing it all as “just being human,” or “just being a sinner, like them.” Simply because, they can. They are without empathy or a conscience except as far as it is of benefit to them.

    The “church” is grossly uneducated regarding domestic violence, Cluster B Personality disordered, child abuse, abuse, and addiction. If they were to get honest, they would need to acknowledge the many ways they enable and protect those who abuse, thus would also have to rethink their mission, calling, gifts, and governing strategies that would be far more safer, protective, and redeemable for one and all, including the least of those who attend.

    NPD’s are not psychotic, but many do cross over in being a sociopath/psychopath. All Cluster B are Narcissists at their core. Not only this, an “N” can be seen one day by a therapist, acting out the “N,” but then be seen on another day and be fully in a “P” mode.

    No different than what victims see when no one else is looking, and when they are, they are only seeing what the “N” wants them to see, not who they truly are.

  71. Linda Pappas says:

    Correction: Mask of Sanity—very important to remember this. What others hear and see is not what is true, but only a mirroring of what takes place, to makes people think they are seeing and hearing this person to say and do as being the same as why they would think, see, and do. Unless, people get this, they will continue to come up with their own “logical” explanations that only serves the NPD in their sole aim to destroy that or those victims that desire to stop the abuse, to warn others, and to protect themselves, their household, and those who enables the “N.”

  72. Alex says:

    MLD said, “You are a chip off the old block – aren’t you?”

    No, not really. I save being an a-hole toward bigger a-holes (like you 🙂 ) and not toward women and children.

    Plus, he’s an idiot. Good con man, street smart when it comes to manipulating people…but only moderately intelligent.

  73. Divine Door Knobs says:

    Oh how I love this!!! Blatant hypocrisy and you are calling them on it. Thank you. Religion will never be the same. Power, money and control are slipping through the menogawds fingers and yea they are verily, verily pissed offeth!

  74. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    Reminds me of many cc kings which expect/demand simple obedience and Biblical actions of others, but FOR THEM (only) are a plethora of extra-Biblical tools: mind-reading, assuming, assigning evil intent without proof or “two or three witnesses,” public humiliation (pulpit or papal radio outlets), back-biting, etc.
    Yea, I know, I know, “all we need is The Word.”
    rrrrright!

  75. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    Ooops! I I forgot…
    ahem (clearing my throat),
    “I’m bitter” – what others do is my fault,
    or, nothing is wrong, but the messenger.
    I have never understood how that favored tradition actually works.

  76. Em says:

    NPD – as my daughter likes to observe, “you can’t cure crazy” …

    IMHO, personality disorders can be very insidious – it’s up to the rest of us to wise up and not get sucked in where they live … it’s up to God to cure or not… as He chooses – we need to get clear in our minds, perhaps, when forgiveness is appropriate as opposed to thinking we’re forgiving, but in reality are enabling?

    the one thing that we can do is help each other in “wising up” – what Michael and the rest of the folk who visit his Phoenix Preacher are doing… IMHO 😎

  77. Hey for those who do not have a Christian calender, today is the Feast of the Ascension – the end of the post resurrection 40 days Jesus spent on earth.

    Party appropriately

  78. Linnea says:

    Well, if Mr. Sam needs a biblical model concerning criticism, let’s see how David responded to Nathan in 2 Samuel 12. How about how David responded to Shimei in 2 Samuel 16? What do you know? David took to heart Nathan’s pointing to his own sin, then later, allowed Shimei to criticize him and pelt him with rocks? Why? Because he believed God was in the mix, and that he (David) could learn something. That’s the spirit we should have when we’re confronted in our sin, then thank God that He sent someone to help us get right with Him. That’s a little different than covering up the sin and looking the other way. And frankly, I think it’s more loving to sinner.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.