Let The Children Come To Me: Updating The Kempner Scandal

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  1. Believe says:

    And the picture becomes crystal clear.

    Rolph…I am so sorry.

    This goes back to the “Church as a Business” discussion.

    An FBI Agent / Church Board Member and an aggressive attorney. Pretty formidable foes.

    How risky of the Federal Agent to be involved in this type of activity. It will be interesting to see what the Bureau’s response will be after the Media continues to report this story.

    As for the aggressive attorney…their “reward” or “justice” will have to be more Spiritual in nature…as they win regardless of outcome (by collecting church donated monies…win or lose).

    The story needs to be broadened out…especially since an FBI agent is directly involved. Michael…open up communication with former and current attenders of BCCC…especially those who feel intimidated by the FBI agent and attorney. Then, let’s talk. There are some ways to confront these issues…especially regarding the FBI agent.

    April is Child Abuse Awareness Month.

    I posted this on another forum:

    http://www.topix.com/forum/city/visalia-ca/TU33QV1RQIKVU4M94/p129#lastPost

  2. Michael says:

    Nothing we can do except plead and pray…he has the right to free association.

    It’s an odd association, though…

  3. Believe says:

    He has the right to free association…however, free speech is also a protected right…and so is public opinion.

    So is a potential Class Action lawsuit.

    Many of the former and current attenders of BCCC paid for that land and school with their time and money.

    Feeling “threatened” is also a dynamic…that if true…is illegal, and carries liability as well.

  4. Michael says:

    Feelings can’t be litigated.
    These folks aren’t going down that road…they just want a simple, righteous, resolution.

  5. Believe says:

    Michael…if you can get people to go “on record”…any potential reprisals by the FBI agent would be scrutinized pretty heavily.

    A responsible Investigative Journalist would have a field day. So would a really good attorney.

  6. Believe says:

    As long as “feelings” don’t turn into “reality”….

  7. Em says:

    it isn’t the sin of undisciplined flesh that is wearing the Church down – it is the evil of undisciplined (unrenewed) minds

  8. Michael says:

    Believe,

    I wish things were as simple as you think they are.
    I’ve talked with many of these folks…they are scared, broken, and weary.
    They have lives and children and they aren’t equipped for those kinds of battles.

    Mr. Frye simply needs to do the right thing and vote to fire Mr. Kempner and let everyone start rebuilding their lives.

  9. Believe says:

    There wouldn’t be this “mess”…if the CC System had pastors pre-agree legally (in a contract) to the authority of an Arbitration Panel…with a rider on the local church assets as a pre-condition to get a Dove.

    I feel really bad for all those at BCCC who have given so much time and money over the years…and then have to leave their church (and the land and school with it)…because of the actions of a rogue pastor and now an irresponsible board and aggressive attorney.

    Where is the Fear of God in all of this?

    Praying that God will directly bring repentance and justice to this situation.

  10. Concerned says:

    Thank you Michael for doing the right thing….

  11. Believe says:

    Michael…those poor people. Praying for them. How disillusioning and discouraging for them.

  12. Michael says:

    I’m not a prophet or the son of a prophet…but when you mess with kids you’re tempting the wrath of God in a big way…

  13. Believe says:

    Anyone know which office Frye works out of with the FBI?

    Maybe some letters and emails to his superiors and some letters to the Editor of his local paper…and a Topix forum with his name on it would help shed some light and garner some public opinion regarding this issue.

    Frye is now in the public since this has been reported on. He is a corporate board member of a public non-profit entity.

    Free speech is a protected right. These issues can at least be discussed on a broader level. Maybe some at BCCC would be willing to anonymously participate with information and testimony about the situation…since they fear reprisal.

  14. nancy says:

    Ohhhh … so sad.

  15. Sarah says:

    Praying for God to move in the midst of this. I spent much time yesterday praying for Kempner and for the awareness of the Gospel to sink deep in his soul.

    Sometimes we have been around the cross so long that it has grown so familiar. Good Friday shocks me every year. I know the story, I know the message…but the reality of Good Friday shocks me. I have been praying that it again shocks Kempner, and now will pray for this agent the same.

    I pray for my boys to grow into men who understand what it is to be strong in the Lord. We need examples of that…my husband is one, my father another.

    Michael another. Dave Rolph, Centy, more.

    I could list probably 100 without too much effort.

    Matt Chandler.

    John Piper.

    Tony Higgenbothem (yeah…I know you haven’t heard of him)

    Paul Paulson (or him….but every week at Biblestudy he would tell us about his father who come home from work after Paul and his brother had gone to sleep. He would lift one of the boys and carry him to other boy’s bedroom. He would return to the empty room and pray outloud for his boys. Paul can remember falling back asleep to that every night. Paul was in his 70’s when I met him, and he still would cry when he told this story)

    I’m not trying to change the focus to positive….but I am saying that Kempner and this agent have the opportunity to fall into this line of witnesses around us. I would assume that a man who is an FBI agent is a strong man. A man of courage and with a heart for justice….that is still in there somewhere.

    May God breathe into these men renewal of their spirit. May He, by His Spirit confront them of their sin. Deeply. May He not let go of them until they are turned from their path.

    And this congregation and school….Lord have mercy. Comfort, protect, encourage. Strengthen.

  16. Michael says:

    Sarah,

    That had the Spirit all over it…may we all say the amen and see God move again.

  17. nancy says:

    Michael,
    Sadly … although not as clear to see from a distance like this case is … children often if not always get hurt in church struggles. Children suddenly being removed from their church home … or their friends suddenly disappearing is very hard on children. There is often a great bond between the children … much like family … that gets broken off usually very suddenly & to make it even worse the children have very little idea what happened & why. Church is truly like a family & home in many ways … to suddenly be moved out is very hurtful. It’s very sad. Oh … & teachers can just suddenly not be there as well. In my case … I was teaching children at the time when the abusive pastor suddenly accused me of being too sinful to teach “his” little ones. I wasn’t even allowed to say goodbye to my class. I often wondered if the children thought I didn’t care about them anymore … still makes my eyes fill up & my tummy hurt to think about.

  18. Em says:

    Rogue pastors is an excellent term for all these undisciplined usurpers, but, if you want to **feel** badly for the folk caught up in this, feel badly if they can’t or won’t count all the “stuff* as dung, leaving it to go on in the Faith. Fleeing like Lot, as it were.
    Pray hard for the flock, including prayer for RCs now feeling disillusioned and disenfranchised and not knowing where to flee… perhaps RC priests who are true men of God will move toward the flock and away from organizational allegiance, too.

  19. Michael says:

    Nancy,

    I hear you…because Trey was in a small Christian school for a year I know how important it can be.
    That’s why I’m in this fight…for the Treys and their teachers who are getting hurt by men who could care less.

  20. Lutheran says:

    Rogue pastors

    Erin,

    I call these unaccountables “cowboy pastors.”

    “Yee-hah,” they shout as their horses’ hooves grind into the faces of God’s precious
    sheep.

    Praying hard for the sheep.

  21. Concerned says:

    Nancy,

    I identify and share your grief.

    That happened to my kids at their school.
    Shunned by the teachers and kids and parents of those who choose to not be involved.
    They knew what was going on and ignored it.
    They still do.

    As parents ,we have used this year to grow closer to the Lord.
    But the hypocrisy has done its damage.

  22. filbertz says:

    Rogue pastors also tend to teach, not the whole counsel of God, but the parts that best fit their plans and designs, leaving the members with a limited equiping which makes them vulnerable to abuse and weakened to respond to it.

  23. nancy says:

    Fil,
    Very good point. Plus to go along those lines there is the slant or even misrepresentation of grace, forgiveness & submission to name a few …

  24. Michael says:

    Concerned,

    I’m very sorry…no child should have to endure that.

  25. centorian says:

    and rogue sheep tend to flock themselves around those who teach what they want to hear

  26. filbertz says:

    rogue sheep…sounds like an oxymoron.

    moooooooo.

  27. Lutheran says:

    Filb,

    Great point. Luther said God’s Word is like a wax nose — you can make it say anything you want. Without strong, deep and well-rounded grounding in church history, the catholicity of the church, theology, etc., etc., it’s not difficult for an ‘inidependent’ pastor to go off the rails.

  28. nancy says:

    Concerned,
    My heart breaks for the children caught in these messes. I’m so sorry your children were hurt by a church. In my view the abusive or rogue pastor is just the beginning of the abuse & wrongdoing. It sadly spreads out from there & more damage is caused by others we should be able to trust to protect them. Wounds on top of wounds & non caused by an enemy. The wounds are caused by our own. It just has to stop. I know all abuse can never be totally stopped … but when something happens … it’s should be stopped at that point. A system of some kind real accountability must be in place to catch & deal with it before it has a chance to spread & also carry on for years. No harmful situation should be left to continue until it finally gets too big to hide. By then … way too much damage has been done & the mess is very hard to clean up. No need for all that.

  29. Michael says:

    Centy has spoken wisely…

  30. Michael says:

    I’ve looked at almost all the different systems of church governance…while the independent model of CC and the SBC may be more prone to abuse I’ve seen the same issues in all of them.

    They’re all run by sinners…

  31. Lutheran says:

    My view on church government is that there’s flexibility — I don’t believe there is one prescribed. The Early Church had bishops over each geographical area.

  32. Michael says:

    Lutheran,

    That is correct…I started researching again and thats the first thing you see after the death of the apostles.
    Of course, back then the church was a geographical entity, not a denominational one.

  33. Concerned says:

    Nancy,

    The problem as I see it is that faculty and administration in the school will not acknowldge what is going on because it jeopardizes their “good standing” with the “church” as well as the school.

    It is a complicated dynamics that is going on and one that is not easily ‘fixed” unless those believers stand up for what is right..and I don’t believe it is going to happen because they have job security, reduced tuition for their kids and other perks from supporting the administration. And many are there to “climb the ladder” to success…so they are “yes” people. And they are rewarded for this. I have seen it and it makes me really angry.
    Thats what, IMO keeps the majority corrupt.

    If it is not happening to them personally and their own kids, they have no sympathy for what you are going through.

  34. filbertz says:

    Christian schools which are run through one local church often have a weird dynamic in terms of the relationship with the church. Pastors, typically, are not educational administrators, have limited experience, do not understand the significant differences in mission, leadership, and methodology, and tend to play power games, especially in terms of funding. The best situations provide significant autonomy with an eye to outreach rather than only “discipleship.” IMO. 😉

  35. Michael says:

    fil,

    My only experience with one was really positive…
    Trey and I saw one of his teachers from that school in the Post Office Friday…she lost her husband to cancer at Christmas and you could tell there was still a very real bond between student and teacher as she explained what happened to Trey.
    He got nothing but good from it…and I think this school we’re trying to defend is cut from the same cloth.

  36. Concerned says:

    Fil,

    Absolutely right.
    The problem is that when they bring someone in who does know how to run the school, the same pastors and CEO will overpower them and dispose of them if they are threatened

  37. Michael says:

    On the other hand…we went to visit the one in Medford…and we didn’t make it past the check in desk.
    We must have looked like sinners… 🙂

  38. odenfong says:

    I personally believe that fear of a reprisal from an FBI agent or anyone in law enforcement on any level is unfounded. All law enforcement personnel are under strict guidelines when it comes to using their power and authority outside the limits of law enforcement.
    I know this first hand having friends in all levels of law enforcement including the FBI, DEA, US Customs, state, county and local law enforcement. They are held to a more rigid accountability than citizens.
    I also think that this brother at BCC is a true brother in Christ and he loves the Lord. I don’t know him personally, but I have seen him and known of him. His wife is the worship leader and she’s is very godly.
    He is not going to bully people or use his position as an agent to fight for the church. He just happens to be an FBI agent as an occupation.

  39. odenfong says:

    Whoops, I meant “she is very godly. “

  40. Shaun Sells says:

    I would add, that one of the difficulties of christian schools are that they become almost cult like. You have gathered together a large number of families that feel so strongly about the desire to be in a Christian school that they do the difficult socially counter culture thing and remove their children from public school, all the while defending the action to unbelieving friends, family, coworkers, and even themselves.

    Now, when the school starts to struggle you find yourself defending the school, because it represents your choice – that you told everyone was the best thing for your kids. When the school fails, in a sense you feel as if you have failed. In order to defend your counter culture actions to yourself and the world you find yourself being willing to accept all sorts of strange things, apparently even prostitution. You defend someone elses actions as if they were your own because you feel you will be judged by proxy.

    I am not making this up by the way – we had our children in a Christian school for two years, but removed them because the administration was so poor (especially in protecting the children). When we did that people from the school refused even to associate with us or our church. The school sinned, but we became the enemy. It isn’t easy to just leave.

  41. Michael says:

    Oden,

    Point well taken.

    However… ( you knew there had to be a however) I’ve talked to people who are literally afraid to answer their doors.

    Their fears may be unfounded, but when you support a man like Kempner people are going to wonder about the rest of your character.

  42. Xenia says:

    >>> All this to say to anyone who fears the FBI, don’t, unless you’re a criminal. <<<

    Hoo boy.

    Ruby Ridge.

  43. centorian says:

    excellent points Shaun. It is the same with most home schoolers.

  44. centorian says:

    xenia….. yep

    don’ttreadonmecent

  45. Xenia says:

    I don’t know anything at all about these particular FBI agents but there are certainly cases here in the US of A where gov’t agents have gotten ticked off at a citizen and the next thing the citizen knows his front door is kicked down, his dog is shot, and he’s tied up on the floor in his underwear while the agents ransack the house and steal his money. Personally, I would avoid annoying a federal law enforcement agent.

  46. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    Thank God I don’t have a dog… 🙂

    I admit to a tad amount of fear myself.

    Just a tad…

  47. odenfong says:

    Michael,

    Sadly, it is true that people are afraid. I would that it were not so.

    One of the other board members is also a godly man whom I met when he had a ministry feeding the poor.

    All this to say that, right or wrong, the board members are godly men. The decisions which they make may “make or break the church and school.”

    I pray that they will do whatever is necessary to preserve both the church and the school. My six year old son goes to the school.

  48. Xenia says:

    I am not one of those folks who are fearing a New World Order and the rest of the lore but I do not, repeat, DO NOT trust the federal law enforcement agencies. I’m sure most agents are decent people, etc etc etc and their wives sing in the church choir, etc etc etc but anyone who does half an hour’s worth of research would come to believe that these agencies are wildly out of control.

  49. Michael says:

    Oden,

    At the end of the day this, like all things, is in God’s hands.

    We all need to pray that God would speak and that these men would be willing to hear and do His will.

    We’re going to do all we can…

  50. filbertz says:

    Oh oh, centy touched the annointed…home schoolers. Duck!

    Actually, most Christian schools seem to struggle with the difference between a church and a school. It is a fundamental difference that gets fogged up with lofty expectations.

  51. Shaun Sells says:

    Sometimes I am afraid to come to this blog – I fear my church may be next. As with every church their are a great number of people who disagree with things we have done over the years (some of them justifiably so). Oden is in an incredibly difficult place – no one wants to see someone they love drug through the mud – even if that person is in sin. I applaud Oden for defending his friends and hope that what he is saying is true – but love hopes all things, and believes all things.

  52. odenfong says:

    Xenia,

    A case like that would be very rare if it ever really happened. I know that some city narcs have gone over the line and robbed drug dealers. FBI agents are usually intelligent professional, and polite.

  53. Xenia says:

    Oden, you have the gift of thinking the best of everyone. God bless you.

  54. Michael says:

    Shaun,

    Thanks for the vote of confidence.

    This isn’t a question of someone “disagreeing”…it’s a clear cut violation of Scripture with a legal conviction to prove it.

    It’s …never mind…

  55. Shaun Sells says:

    Michael –

    I wasn’t intending to take a swipe at you – sorry if it came across that way. I was just saying that Oden’s loyalty of love is impressive.

    I am sure you would contact me before posting something, and I apologize for the poor wording. Feel free to remove my comment.

    Again, sorry.

  56. Michael says:

    Evidently there’s no applause for defending children and those who get ripped off by pastors cruising for hookers….

  57. nancy says:

    Shaun,
    I’m sure if there was an real issue that needed to be addressed at the church you pastor … Michael would try talking to you about it long before it would hit the pages of PP.

  58. odenfong says:

    Shaun,

    I’m sorry if I come across like I’m defending Jim Kempner. I have stated what I know is true about Jim, his family members and now the board members at BCC.
    I do have an interest in seeing the school continue because my son attends there.

    I wanted to give insight into the people who are involved. Most of the people involved are godly people whose life intent is to serve Jesus. This is why Michael’s post at 10:29AM has the greatest wisdom. Prayer. It will take prayer to solve this problem.

  59. nancy says:

    Shaun,
    I wrote my last post before reading/seeing your 10:48

  60. Lutheran says:

    Shaun,

    There are better models for Christian schools than the one you presented.

    I’m thinking, natch, of Lutheran private schools. While our sons never attended any, I know of them. They’re usually pretty decently run. I think I’ve even seen some parents on here who’ve sent their kids to them.

    The Lutheran paradigm doesn’t encourage separatism from our culture like fundamentalist and evangelical cultures and their schools often do. I think that’s one reason they’re better. Plus, Lutherans are very big on education — many of the “Concordia” universities have education majors and some wind up teaching in Lutheran schools.

  61. Shaun Sells says:

    Michael – this thread and others has been filled with peoples applause for you. I didn’t realize you needed to hear it from me personally. Oden is the lone voice of compassion for the other side (the side in sin) – not an easy task, but I believe it is still an important one.

    For the record – Michael you do a very good job of making issues known as accurately as is humanly possible. The work of defending people who are hurt by abusive pastors is important and valuable. I applaud you for it.

  62. victorious says:

    Believe. Regarding the first paragraph of your 8:11AM. Unfortunately many (not all) and the mindset of those who cast the vision for future leaders within CC see what you describe as a secular burden and technical task to be carried out if at all. They run to the authority and platform of leadership but refuse the responsibility of leadership, rationalize it away as a non-spiritual task that only men who do not trust Christ seek to accomplish,and therefore distance themselves from the leadership of Christ and immerse themselves in a fraternity of self deception.

    However, they demonstrate that those for whom Christ gave His life on the cross are not worthy of men following the love of Christ and laboring in love to provide an environment where the people of God can mature individually and corporately.

    However they still seek to expend the energy and market the concept that they are fostering a movement with the best loved sheep.

  63. Michael says:

    Shaun,

    It’s not about applause…it’s about caring for people who don’t have a voice to defend themselves with.

  64. Shaun Sells says:

    Lutheran –

    I sent my kids to a Lutheran preschool. The school was great, but they didn’t have an option beyond preschool and the pastor at the church refused to associate with me because I wasn’t Lutheran. I invited him to prayer times, lunches, and other things and he always declined because he prefers to hang out with Lutheran pastors and had no desire to hang out with other types of pastors (said with a smile of course). That kind of attitude carries itself to all levels of an organization. There is another Lutheran school in town that goes through sixth grade, but some friends of ours said it quality declined after 3rd grade or so, so it wouldn’t work for our kids.

  65. Shaun Sells says:

    Understood Michael. I love how easy it is to assume I don’t care about such things, simply by defending Oden’s example of love.

    I’m going to skip out of this thread – I am not adding any value only making people mad. I will wait for a topic I can have a more positive impact on.

    God bless all – and Michael, I am not angry, just ever focused on the difficulty of communication online, it is sooo easy to offend and be offended.

  66. Michael says:

    Shaun,

    UGM

  67. Believe says:

    Oden…I hear you.

    I have many friends and family in law enforcement and the military as well. One very good friend who’s dad is career FBI. Most (and the people I know) are as honorable as they come.

    It would be a very poor decision for any agent to use his position to intimidate or exact a reprisal…and is highly unlikely due to many checks and balances in the government system…and the Media as watchdog…and the ACLU etc.

    Unfortunate that some at BCCC have a “fear”…founded or unfounded. They really shouldn’t…if the agent is conducting himself properly and not using government resources in any way to affect this situation, then they shouldn’t be “afraid”.

    You know the guys…and sounds like what you know of them…this is not the case…thankfully.

  68. victorious says:

    Systems need to incorporate a plan within the reliable and undeniable grace of God to not only hold in check leadership, but they can and need to incorporate a plan to actually develop the capacities within men to actually lead and govern in from the resources of goodness.

    IITim.2:2 is a system born of the Spirit that can and should be given the time, resources and mind capital to develop it to the degree that it meets the needs of Christ’s church.

    Systems never promise a 100% solution. They are always developed to succeed with the 80%. If you succeed in developing proven capacity and performance with the 80% then you have the resources to hold in check the other 20% of exceptions.

    Movements without systems will always become memorials. What a sad response to such a great move of God. 🙁

  69. victorious says:

    Giftings do not create nor develop capacities to lead. They only provide pathways of opportunities to develop in grace which can be accepted or refused.

  70. Bob Sweat says:

    OK, I’ve read enough, and kept silent as long as I could. As most of you know, I am a school administrator. I have also been a pastor. Presently, I have the title of pastor with the responsibility of overseeing the school. In this case, one has to separate past and present ministries of the pastor in question. The argument is not about his godliness or ministries past or present. The question is, does he have a criminal record, felony of misdemeanor, and will that conviction come back in a background check?

    I was a principal at a school that had a convicted felon on pastoral staff. He became a Christian after his conviction. He was (is) a godly man with a wonderful ministry. I would trust this man with my grandchildren. He was not allowed on the preschool premises because of that past conviction. I’m not sure if the school in question has a preschool, but that is the law in California. There is more leniency in K-8. All employees at my school are fingerprinted. When I interview a possible employee, I ask if they have a criminal record. If someone lied, and the fingerprinting proved something different, I would not hire them. I have had people try to get through fingerprinting without divulging the facts.

    Bottom line, here is what troubles me. It appears as though this pastor tried to hid a conviction. Where is integrity? Does it matter anymore? I interviews that I have had over the years for jobs at a Christian school. It has been very difficult to admit that I was formally a pastor, and had the leave the pastoral ministry because of adultery. Di I have to disclose that information? Probably not. But I knew that in the course of my employment some of my past would surface. After all, my wife and I have 8 children between us. I wanted to make sure my possible employer new the truth from me, because there might be the likelihood they might hear it from someone else. I know there are those who disagree, but I have to be upfront. Has it cost me? Yes it has, but sin has consequences.

    That’s my take.

  71. odenfong says:

    I was at a heated meeting with both parents who opposed Jim having anything to do with the school and the BCC board members (all present).

    The FBI board member never identified himself as an agent, but simply a member of the church who was voted in to become a new board member. He was being grilled by the parents, but never once lost his cool. I don’t think that he has ever used his FBI status to intimidate anyone. And frankly, these parents would probably go after his job if he were to have tried.

  72. Believe says:

    Vic, your 11:02am…

    I hear you.

    What is concerning to me is that there are things in place within the CC system that are not in Scripture…yet those strategies are followed…and are not of the “spirit”…like CCOF.

    CCOF is, in essence, a way to protect CCCM assets from the actions of rogue CC pastors. While practical on a “business” level…far from a Spiritual issue.

    So, why not seek ways to improve the System from a practical business perspective…while trying to “Do Justice..” and provide more fairness for Laity..which I believe is Scriptural?

    Again, lots of protection for the Pastor from the flock…under the current model…not so much protection from the flock from a rogue Pastor.

  73. victorious says:

    I knew an employee of Kempner and a band under contract to Kempner’s recording (or distributionn?) company.

    They were discreet and vague in their disclosures but they were glad to accept wrong as the price for getting away from Kempner.

  74. brian says:

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/apr2010/hedg-a02.shtml

    Another reason to kick myself for going down the “ministry” merrigoround instead of getting a real job. Sometimes I make myself sick thinking of the waist of time. I really do.

  75. Michael says:

    vic,

    There’s a whole ‘nother story there….I’ll leave that one to the pros….

  76. Michael says:

    Px2,

    I don’t think I’ll be running that one…after this I think I’ll do a series on gardening tips. 🙂

  77. filbertz says:

    You two could compromise…Gardening Tips by Jimmy K. 😉

  78. victorious says:

    Pastor, Pastor. There was a day and age where I would have marginalized the type of ministry carried out your wife within your church. Today I see such a ministry as necessary and I pray that it restores hope to the wounded and helps build character into future leaders that will help them overcome; rather than remain open to the wiles of the devil and the enticements of our fallen nature.

  79. Concerned says:

    Shawn,

    Your 10:07….right on.

  80. Concerned says:

    Forgot to paste…

    “The school sinned, but we became the enemy”

  81. Michael says:

    fil,

    😉

  82. Bada Bing says:

    Another reason for CC, of which I am a member, to abandon the completely unbiblical “Moses model” and to embrace the biblical model of plurality of elders.

  83. filbertz says:

    *Don’t dig below the surface.
    *Weeds are in the eyes of the beholder.
    *Use liberal amounts of ‘compost.’
    *Plant money crops, not perennials.
    *Never spend over $20 for a shovel, rake, or hoe.

  84. Nonnie says:

    We have a very good friend who came to pastor a church in Manila (as a missionary pastor) that a group of women had been running for several years.(each Sunday a guest pastor would teach the service but the women were in charge.) They were so thrilled they had finally found the “perfect” man to come and pastor the church. I had been teaching them at a ladies’ study for several years and encouraged them to step back and let the pastor be the pastor. He was very gracious gentleman, did not try to make a bunch of changes, but after 2 years, he did draw the line on some scriptural comprises and tried to do so gently and with much grace. However, these”ladies” were not about to step back one inch, and there came a rift in the church. It was splitting apart. Rather than fighting and tearing families apart, this man and his family stepped out and resigned with grace and dignity. (He had not committed any sin other than not towing the ladies’ line). The church is still going and has reverted to existing on guest speakers each week while the ladies rule. The missionary/pastor and his family returned to their home country and God has blessed them abundantly.

    So I say all of that because I believe that shows a man of integrity. He could step back and trust the Lord for his future and the future of the church.

    How sad that JK cannot do the same, for the good of that church and school.

    Is one man’s job worth tearing apart a church and school?

  85. Michael says:

    Nonnie,

    Thank you for that…good word.

  86. Michael says:

    fil,

    It was worth it all for that post… 😉

  87. ( | o )====::: says:

    Hello all!
    Hope all had a great Easter celebration. We went to Rock Harbor’s gathering at The Pacific Amphitheater (over 200 people were baptized at the 11am service), had a great time with family and friends, then returned home to a pool party / Easter meal punctuated by an earthquake.

    I am amazed at the goodness of everyone who is working to solve the situation with Jimmy Kempner, the school, and the overall condition in the church. People want healing, progress, counseling and ultimate restoration for Jim, healing for his family, healing for the wounded at the church and school…

    God is at work and this difficult season will pass and all who are involved will be stronger, more compassionate and the character of Jesus WILL prevail.

    Stay encouraged!

  88. paigemom says:

    My four kids attended a small church based school for most of their educational years.
    Three of my four kids have rejected the Gospel, though they remain good friends with the entire church staff and many of the students.
    The staff were and are all upright and devout disciples who loved the kids and did their best.

    I agree with Shaun Sells comment at 10:am I would add, that one of the difficulties of christian schools are that they become almost cult like.

    The little school my kids attended did indeed represent and create a VERY small world.
    What was more cult like was our (former) church. Small minded, inbred, saw anything that was different as ‘demonic’, etc, etc. When my ‘kids’ got out of our house and moved to a larger city, they found that much of what we had taught them was baloney.
    Not all unbelievers are terrible, not all secular music is demonic, etc, etc ad nausem, and most of all, to their amazement, most Catholics were indeed disciples of Jesus Christ.
    Gosh, it turns out that mom, dad, the church, the school had all LIED to them about realty and life in the ‘real’ world.

    At the time, it seemed like the right thing to make our world small and protective.

    In reality, the only thing that ‘makes’ a person a disciple of Jesus Christ is The Holy Sprit and the Call of God. There are no guarantees that ‘training up a child the way he should go” necessarily pertains to faith in Jesus Christ. It may form their housekeeping and cooking habits, but faith is a Gift of God.

    At this time in my life, I have come to the conclusion that what kids imitate is what they see is REAL in their parent/s life/lives. Life is full of trials and tribulation and shielding kids from difficulty is not necessarily the ‘best’ way to grow responsible adults.
    The very small world of church and christian culture is just that: small, and frankly, not the whole picture, nor the ‘best’ set of circumstances.

    Go ahead, stone me. 🙂 It may possibly be that God allowed this chaos in SoCal to ‘dispirse’ some of His people and move them forward into the next thing He has for them.

  89. Michael says:

    No Paigemom stoning allowed! 🙂

    Boy, did I love those choir videos you posted on Facebook.
    If I get back up there you have to take me to church…

  90. Believe says:

    Nonnie said, “Is one man’s job worth tearing apart a church and school?”

    …and a family.

    That’s why it’s important for Systems to clarify and reach consensus…and have checks and balances in place…to make a determination per 1 Timothy 3 (which is Biblical, Spirit-led, Spirit-filled, etc) and a final decision regarding Qualification and Disqualification.

    …and have an agreement in place prior to Doveship that gives 3rd Party authority (Arbitration Panel) to enforce that authority and replace pastors…protecting the local church’s assets in fairness to those who have served and contributed to it for years.

  91. Believe says:

    ..Disaffiliation does remove the Dove…but doesn’t protect the assets of the local church in fairness to those who were originally drawn to the Dove Brand and Chuck Smith’s ministry legacy…

    It leaves the assets and authority to the disqualified pastor and his hand-picked board…which presents problems…and unfairness…and sometimes injustice.

  92. Just mom says:

    Paigemom,
    I understand your point and have doubted my calling to homeschool many times (yes, even smaller of a world). However, the public school, big as it is, is cultish in itself . I don’t think children in general are much more prepared for this world, just more acclamated to it. It is a different religion but it is one in itself. The religion of peer-pressure and Godless worldview eats up more kids then the private school or homeschool sector put together. Preparation to the the big pond doesn’t mean you throw your kids to the wolves so they can learn to survive. It means honest discipleship and slowly releasing the reigns so they can handle with care. Yes, I know they will make mistakes but they will always remember the peace that existed when God was truly present.

  93. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    People need to know to ask (after they have been at a church for a while) to ask for a copy of the by laws and the budget. They should also ask for a roster of the pastor and church staff. If there is any resistance to those requests, they should leave the church – knowing that they are not accepted as an equal.

  94. Believe says:

    Just Mom…yes, Humanism / Secularism is the “religion” of the Public School System.

    It has it’s own Theology, Doctrine, Prophets, Bibles…and Pastor/Teachers…

  95. paigemom says:

    No kidding Michael. You MUST come to Mt Olivet sometime! Grown up church, for real.
    We love house guests…. you’re welcome most any time. Bring Trey up to the zoo, kid’s museum, etc. Our house is kid friendly 🙂 (although church may be too loud for him. Lucy say’s “too wowed”)

    Some of Pastor Martin’s messages are now finally online http://www.mtolivet.com under Media

    Am I now sorry for the explosion that rocked my world and made 30 years of my life vanish?
    No way. I have complete arrived at the place of total thankfulness FOR it…..and I have faith for the same for all involved in this SoCal church and school. God is faithful, even in terrible, unfair, Job like situations.

  96. Concerned says:

    Paigemom,

    Thanks for your perspective.

    Having started in public school, and now ending in public school, Christian school did more damage to my kids on many levels.

    We are kind of amazed at the “good kids” in public, with “good” though unredeemed parents raising them. Academically it is far superior.

  97. Chris Long says:

    I want to be careful towards throwing out any “useless words” since all I really know is what I’ve read at places like this. With that said, it is clear that others do, including both Michael and Oden. I certainly understand where Michael is coming from, but I clearly understand where Oden is coming from too.

    I may be simplifying, but the issue for me boils down to one major issue: Is Jim repentant or not? If the answer is no (as all the indications I’ve read/seen would seem to indicate), then it seems clear to me that he shouldn’t be there – and anyone standing in the way of his removal it seems to me is only serving to drag Christ’s name further through the mud (and yes, the children and church members as well, etc.)

    If, however, Jim is repentant, then this is where it gets a little tricky. In such a situation, I do believe that we should all “ideally” be willing to forgive and extend him grace (since we know that we also apart from Jesus’s forgiveness and grace on a daily basis would be in REAL BIG trouble!) and just put this whole thing behind and move on. That may be the “ideal”, but the reality is that even if there’s repentance on his part, some people will find it hard to extend this forgiveness and grace – this is just reality (just as sin for Kempner is a reality, it is for the rest of us as human beings too!). Which means there will be bad feelings and hurt, for possibly years to come, etc. Which means division. Which means children get hurt. And most importantly, it means that the name of Jesus (and thus the gospel) gets hurt across-the-board. So, given this, it would seem wise to me that Jim step down – at least for a season – even if there is repentance.

    I’m not interested in getting on any “condemn Jim Kempner” train. He has been used mightily by God in times past. I know the extent of my own past sinfulness (and as mentioned previously scared silly about making mistakes like this in my own ministry/pastoral life going forward!), so any stones to throw, I’ll throw at myself.

    But, at the end of the day, I really do believe the ONE question (above all others) that needs to be asked by everyone involved (including Jim himself):

    What is the BEST thing that will minimize any harm to the name and reputation of Jesus Christ?

    IMO, if this question gets answered correctly, all the others will fall into place (including “what is best for the children?” “what is best for the church?” “what is best for CC?” etc.)

  98. Concerned says:

    My very bright son is now questioning the “young earth” biblical model.
    They are learning that it took millions of years to form the types of craters on the moons surface and some of the great mountains’ erosion.
    I thought that the flood could cause that.
    Any suggestions?

  99. Michael says:

    Chris,

    Just to clear up any misunderstanding…Oden and I are great friends and I love my brother a lot.

    He’s just much nicer and more godly than I am. 🙂

  100. Michael says:

    Concerned,

    I wish I could help, but I stay completely out of those areas.

    When the day comes when Trey asks me I’m going to tell him I know Who did it, but I have no idea when.

  101. filbertz says:

    concerned,
    despite the shrill voices from within the evangelical community, there is no way anyone can know with certainty which view is correct. No one was there. These are all theories, meaning no one can prove his/her idea. This includes all the models from within biblical circles…there is much debate and division. That said, the age of the world, where all those things came from, macro-this or micro-that is not a reason to declare “heretic!!” Instead, I would use this as an opportunity to educate about the process of learning…that there are many things unknown and unknowable this side of heaven. Our faith doesn’t depend on literal seven days or young earth, but a risen and living Christ.

    By the way, scientists love to throw around the terms millions and billions. I would assume a crater could be made on the moon by one big collision with space junk in a matter of seconds. The physics of hydrology tends to erode the ‘millions of years’ claims on this planet too…just look at the canyons around Mt. St. Helens, merely years after the eruption. Your son can be conversant in the claims of many views without having to embrace any one as absolutely correct.

  102. Nonnie says:

    Fil, thank you for your insights.

  103. centorian says:

    “If Michael started a thread that went something like “Kempner Stories- tell us yours” it would last for weeks.”

    why does that not surprise me?

  104. Believe says:

    Concerned…there is not definitive scientific “proof” for either argument.

    Science cannot explain where the matter / particles / energy came from that …in their own stated Theory…started the Big Bang.

    Science’s own precepts state that you cannot get “something” from “nothing”…

    According to Science, matter is neither created nor destroyed….that is the First Law of Thermodynamics in Physics. Einstein’s Theory of Relativity states that energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable.

    So, the Big Bang Theory cannot (and will never) “prove” how “something” came from “nothing”…so it is as illogical as the explanation of Religion for how we all came into “being”…including the moon.

    Science is good at “observing” post-Creation…not so good at explaining where the matter / mass / energy came from to get it all going…

  105. Bob Sweat says:

    “If, however, Jim is repentant, then this is where it gets a little tricky. In such a situation, I do believe that we should all “ideally” be willing to forgive and extend him grace (since we know that we also apart from Jesus’s forgiveness and grace on a daily basis would be in REAL BIG trouble!) and just put this whole thing behind and move on.”

    I certainly believe in restoration, but the pastor should step down while the restoration process takes place. Life cannot go on as though nothing happened.

  106. Shaun Sells says:

    Concerned –

    Here is a debate between two believers discussing the two sides to the creation argument. One says old earth one says new earth, but both are believers who happen to be astrophysicists. Hope it helps.

  107. Concerned says:

    My sons dilema: (I just showed him your responses-thank you by the way. 🙂 )

    If the Grand Canyon was once flat, and it eroded into what it is now, it would need to take more than 10,000 yrs to make it that deep.

    So I guess the premise is that it needed millions of yrs for that to happen,

  108. ( | o )====::: says:

    “When the day comes when Trey asks me I’m going to tell him I know Who did it, but I have no idea when.”

    That is how we told our children when they asked about creation, geology, and the such.

    The bible doesn’t give definitive data on such things as the formation of the Grand Canyon, though the scriptures speak of natural forces such as floods, quakes, etc, so where it is silent it’s best to give credit to The One Who works it all together for good and leave room for mystery and amazement.

  109. Michael says:

    Grendal,

    The alternative is an endless debate where I honestly believe everyone one is wrong. 😉

  110. Chris Long says:

    Michael: I’ve gathered that. 🙂 About you and Oden being good friends I mean. Wasn’t thinking (or meant to imply) otherwise.

    Bob: Full agreement. Assuming repentance, what I meant was that the ideal IMO would be just to move on right away, but that isn’t practical because there’s still “reality” where people are hurt, a process towards forgiveness, etc. As you said “Life cannot go on as though nothing happened.” I wish it could…but in this fallen world when sin affects others it just doesn’t seem to, so: Hence why later I said “it would seem wise to me that Jim step down – at least for a season – even if there is repentance.”

    Anyone: I have a general PP question, which I’m sure is a dumb “newbie” question, so please forgive me…I’m not trying to criticize anyone at all – and this question was not prompted by any one person here – just a general question that I genuinely want to understand: In all this talk throughout PP of concern for pastors/CC and wanting things done “in the light” as opposed to things kept in the darkness, I have to ask: Why do so many on here not use their real name? (I.e. not come into the light themselves?) I hope that isn’t an offensive question. Is it because people fear retaliation? For pastors is it because you are ministering in CC and don’t want retaliation or to “make waves”?
    I’m just trying to understand. On the surface it seems ironic that people can come here and use nicknames to talk about how named pastors need to publicly come clean and get things more into the light. Again, no criticism intended with that – just curious.

  111. ( | o )====::: says:

    “Having started in public school, and now ending in public school, Christian school did more damage to my kids on many levels.

    We are kind of amazed at the “good kids” in public, with “good” though unredeemed parents raising them. Academically it is far superior.”

    We share your same experience. Yesterday our twentysomething daughters told us of the high number of their friends who remained in their private christian jr high & high school were either single moms with kids out of wedlock, or struggling in marriages with 3 or 4 children, having been married too young having rushed to the altar to get married before the rapture. We were also appalled that the academics were so very far behind relative to the public schools.

    They both cited the “fear based” chapels and bible studies which didn’t adequately equip their friends to thrive and excel in the common culture.

    “Character” is just that, apart from our religion, otherwise how do we explain the admirable ones all around us who are sketchy about the christian faith yet are kind, considerate, honest, enthusiastic and full of life?

  112. victorious says:

    I find great wonder and amazement that God created the earth within the time periods that He told us to coincide with the order of life appointed to us. Though none of us were present at the momment of Creation we interact on a daily basis within the order of creation.
    We live in a 24/ 7 orderly rhythm with the alternating periods of night and day. We were given a mandate to take dominion while yet still dependent upon and in rich fellowship with Our Creator.

    I know the One who made Heaven and Earth and have not heard Him correct what was directly stated in Genesis.

    Since we are and are part of a New Creation our view on Creation does matter even though it will not prevent one from becoming a follower of Jesus. However, it can inhibit one’s trust in Jesus as authoritative in all areas of knowledge.

  113. odenfong says:

    Michael, thanks for your kind words. If only they were true! 😉
    I’m certainly not nicer or more godly, but I’m in a unique situation with this particular situation.

    Jim Kempner and I have been friends most of thirty-five plus years.
    We’ve had some separation, but always manage to get back together as friends.
    I don’t always agree with him. I have frankly told him what I think about some of the things he has done and does. However, I still am friends with him.

    The reason being, I always believe that people can change and become better. I stay in relationships with people whom many have given up on. I have friends who have committed gross sins. I never give up on them because Jesus never gives up on me.
    At the same time, I agree with making leaders accountable. This is why I don’t argue with anyone who demands Christian leaders to be accountable to the body of Christ.

    I am that demanding person sometimes. I have enemies who hate me and would love to see me suffer a terrible death because I was among the voices which cried for their accountability. But, I don’t get involved when it comes to people who are long time friends.

    I always hope that every man and woman will humble themselves and fall upon the Rock of Ages. I know that if they do not, the Rock of Ages will eventually fall on them and crush them to tiny pieces.

  114. ( | o )====::: says:

    “Why do so many on here not use their real name?”

    If you knew my real name you’d understand. 😉

    Seriously, for me, I prefer to express my views and work out my theological issues with more freedom and remain less searchable. For many of us, we came here when we truly feared the repercussions of being candid about our church experiences. Most of us know who we are apart from screen names but that happens when there has been a level of mutual trust and respect. It forces us to deal with the ideas we bring and the candor we share, and we have, over the past years, cultivated an online community of diverse people who can bicker but at the moment anyone needs prayer can turn on a dime and bear one another’s burdens.

    Using my “( | o )====:::” also sums up my core persona.
    I’m a musician, not a pastor, just a commoner, and everyone knows how quirky we musicians are, right? 😉

  115. Shaun Sells says:

    I use my name and link my church website to keep me accountable for my words.

  116. Michael says:

    Chris,

    Fear of reprisal is one reason.
    Another reason is that your comments show up on Google and can make things very difficult if you’re looking for work.

  117. Nonnie says:

    My name is Anita Saunders. I use Nonnie for my PP name here.
    It ‘s what my grandchildren call me.

  118. pineapple head says:

    I’m a pastor and a commoner!

  119. filbertz says:

    My real name only elicits yawns and shrugs, so I use filbertz for its implied wisdom, stature, and clout.

  120. brian says:

    “Fear of reprisal is one reason.”
    Absolutely that is sop I also fear hurting someone with an emotional outburst so I do not mention individuals or organizations. Now when I was on the receiving end my name, job and everything I ever said was paraded around with a chuckle. It was very effective, humiliating (which is totally irrelevant).

  121. Believe says:

    Oden….why is Kempner not stepping down? Does he not believe he is disqualified?

    What is the reasoning from the other side of why he’s staying on (which I believe means the school can’t operate with him in charge because of the conviction…is that accurate?)

    Is it that he believes he fell, but has his sex issues under control and has repented?

    Is there any doubt about the conviction? Are there extenuating circumstances? He did cop a plea…is he now using the “Larry Craig” defense?

    Or, is his defense that he’s covered by grace and people need to forgive him and forget and move on…and that he should continue in ministry at BCCC with no discipline or restoration (other than disaffiliation which has occurred)?

  122. Believe says:

    Chris…you want my real name, my stage name…or my trucker handle? 🙂

  123. Believe says:

    …this is Huckleberry Short N’ Hairy…what’s your 20? Do you copy?

  124. Lutheran says:

    ‘They both cited the “fear based” chapels and bible studies which didn’t adequately equip their friends to thrive and excel in the common culture.

    Grendal,

    Your comment kind of solidified something I’ve been chewing on.

    I think the difference between a good education versus a bad one is not so much between the type of school, I frankly that discussionl is pretty sterile. One guy likes this way because they had a good experience, another one likes this way, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

    For me, a huge issue is whether education is done in a spirit of fear, or in a spirit of curiosity and openness. Not just to ideas, but to other people, too, no matter who they are. We homeschooled for a combined total of about 25 years and looking back, I consider it a success in large part because we tried to follow the latter way.

    I like the old Neil Young song that says, “There’s a world you’re livin’ in/No one else has your part/All God’s children in the wind/Take it in and blow hard.”

    (Yes, I know Neil’s no theologian. Nevertheless, don’t miss the point.)

  125. odenfong says:

    Good questions Believe.

    I’ve never talked to Jim about the incident which is being addressed. I did email him and offer to do whatever I could to save the school from closing down.

  126. pineapple head says:

    Fear based churches and fear based education make for some pretty neurotic people…

    Appreciate the Neil Young quote!

  127. Chris Long says:

    Believe: LOL! 🙂 🙂 Thanks for the best laugh today IMO!

    Some of the names on here have me intriqued (yes, I’m thinking about you “pineapple head”! 🙂 And yes “( | o )====:::” had me thoroughly perplexed (I now “see the guitar” in the name).

    When I first started out on the Internet back in the 90’s, I sometimes went by “bigfool” (based on 1 Corinthians 3:18-19), but alas, I fear some people really just thought I was indeed a big fool (and who could argue?)… 🙂

    Hey, if anyone is thinking they need a new name, check out http://laughandlift.com/members/archive/laugh379.html

    I am Buttercup Liverpants. LOL!

    Seriously, although I still find the whole anon name thing “ironic” given the types of comments here, I appreciate the explanations. To my way of thinking at least (and I don’t claim my way of thinking is always so great!), if a person is going to make any kind of comment about another person in a negative sense (esp. in wanting them to be in the light), that person ought to be willing to make it with everyone knowing who they are (in the light). That said, I see the fear, job, etc. points. Thanks for helping me understand.

  128. pineapple head says:

    Pineapple Head is the name of a Crowded House song.

    Neil Finn is the best singer songwriter evaaaah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Even better as a solo artist.

    This is the only place I use this handle.

    Everywhere else around the web I am the “Sled Dog” (also based on a song…written by the best lyricist in Christian music circles!)

  129. Believe says:

    Anyone else besides me miss MLD?

    Did he get raptured….and we all got “Left Behind”… 🙂

  130. odenfong says:

    Michael,

    Can you email me your email address? I lost it!

    Thanks!

  131. Nomansapologist says:

    Chris,
    Welcome!
    I will answer your question 🙂
    The few people who ever found out my true identity actually chastised me for my involvement here, and eventually completely cut me off.
    Anonymity is valued and honored here.

  132. BrianD says:

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  133. Michael says:

    Oden,

    UGM

  134. Concerned says:

    Nomans,

    Was it worth it? 🙂

    In all sincerity, if some of us were named, then others who lurk would know what church we were talking about.

    Then we would have to look over our shoulder all the time . 🙁

  135. odenfong says:

    I could disappear and come back with a secret identity but most of you would know it was me! I’m too obvious. I’d have to change my character.

  136. pineapple head says:

    I used to post my website, but lately have just been too lazy to do it…maybe its because I haven’t updated it a whole lot since moving.

    As long as people don’t hide behind their anonimoty (sp?) to throw cheap shots and hurl drive-by comments, I’m fine with it.

  137. David Sloane says:

    Those of us who know Jimmy as a friend, can say that he does have strong faith. Perhaps he is feeling that even though there will be widespread repercussions from being found out, somehow God is going to get him through all of this and allow him to continue at the helm.just the same.

    My sense is that the money can only last just so long and then what will the church do? Empty seats speak loudly…

    Would be best if Jimmy stepped down for a season for the sake of the church, and to allow God to intervein in the situation. Others have done as such and they are doing well.

    I love a good conspiracy! FBI agents, pastors, churches… 🙂
    http://www.infowars.com/church-organization-refuses-to-divulge-if-pastors-are-on-fema-payroll/

  138. Erunner says:

    Chris, When I arrived here if memory serves me I think I used this name as I didn’t want anyone to know who I was because of the stances I took. These days Erunner is how folks know me so I stick with it. I do use my name quite often on my blog and have used it often here….. Allan Adams.

    I happen to believe that on occasion people don’t use their real name because they lie about things and this prevents them from being found out. Otherwise there are several reasons people don’t use their names which are all acceptable. I enjoy reading what you have to share. God bless!

  139. nancy says:

    I too was blasted for being part of this blog. It didn’t really make much of a difference though … none really … because I was long since removed from a part of the accepted crowd. It’s one benefit of having already been pretty much cut off … the cult like practices hold little power. I’ve been here for years … & plan on staying …

  140. nancy says:

    Oden,
    I’ll always remember when you first arrived. Did I ever tell you I had to google your name to find out what all the fuss was about that you were on PP? Don’t feel bad though … I googled just about everyone that showed up on PP that others knew … or knew of. Well all but Chuck Jr … but in that case I though he was just making up his name. I know I know … silly east coaster … 😉

  141. Michael says:

    Michael Spencer, the Internet Monk, has died.

    God have mercy.

  142. nancy says:

    Praying now …

  143. BrianD says:

    http://boarsheadtavern.com/2010/04/05/19416/

    His race has finished. Here on earth, his words live on at http://www.internetmonk.com

    He also has a book, Mere Churchianity, scheduled for release this fall that his supporters have been encouraging people to order. It can be accessed via iMonk’s website.

  144. Erunner says:

    Oden, You showing up here was the reason we attended Poiema for a year. It was one of the richest years of my life being part of such a special fellowship. When you pay me back the $5,000 you owe me I might come back! :mrgreen:

  145. pineapple head says:

    I discovered the I-monk about a year or so before stumbling onto the PP website. His writings were very instrumental to me as I had just come out of a funky church situation. I had some email interactions with him and he always helpful and kind. We shared a few “web advesaries” and through the wonder of the internet we laughed at some of their antics.

  146. dreamer says:

    I just came across this, and this is really mind blowing! Pride drives men mad! Search our hearts oh God!
    Can I summarize this situation for my own benefit? Please correct me if I have my facts wrong.
    1. The board only had two members for 10 years (three with Jimmy)
    2. Jimmy hides a guilty plea for prostitution from his family, church, and board.
    3. Jimmy allows church members to put their money into the property without telling them that he had skeletons in his closet.
    4. When the guilty plea is exposed (by parents) jimmy reshuffles the board (in his favor?)
    5. The board (or some members?) vote Jimmy out as the pastor.
    6. CC, who had already disaffiliated BCC, then “arbitrated” (or whatever they want to call it) during which it was decided that Jimmy Kempner would stay as the pastor.
    7. Dave R. said it was not arbitration, but it sounds like this meeting was the turning point and ultimately kept Jimmy in power? So is CC involved or not?
    8. Parents are pulling their kids out because they do not want Jimmy in power.
    9. People have left the church…I would assume tithing is down?

    So here are a couple of questions:
    1. Would be abnormal to create a separate governance for the School? A school board? That seems like a no-brainer to me. Perhaps this would solve the church/school problem.
    2. Seeing how CC “3 prominent pastors” were so instrumental in convincing the board to keep Jimmy in power, why couldn’t they call the board members and tell them that they have changed their minds. I would assume that BCC board members are close to CC even though BCC is now disaffiliated? A call from Brian B. or Chuck could be pretty convincing-it appears that Jimmy works best in isolation? Someone mentioned that he was quite convincing even manipulative. Perhaps this is why he shuffled the board?
    3. What legal recourse do these parents have? Has there been a breach of contract? Negligence?
    4. How about those in the church that have financed the church?

  147. Another Voice says:

    re: Annonymity

    I was in the audience last year when Dave Rolph was making a point about other brothers in Christ, mentioned Rick Warren and got mostly amens, then mentioned ‘the Phoenix Preacher’ and got a far different reaction (as if, OK, that is a little too far) – lots of rumbles etc.

    (Dave, this was the reaction around me in the cheap seats in the back – not sure what you might have heard from the podium. But I am being truthful here)

    The day I insult and act like a jerk because of annonymity is the day I better leave the forum, and go spend some serious time with the Lord.. If I need my church website to keep me accountable instead of Christ….then that’s a problem.

  148. Linnea says:

    Praying for Michael Spencer’s wife and family now…

  149. odenfong says:

    Erunner,

    I’ve told you once, I’ve told you twice, I’m never paying you back! I stole that money from you fair and square!
    You can poison me at E-Fest.

    Nancy,

    Why do you feel removed? You’re one of my favorite people on the blog or anywhere!
    And I am not offended that you didn’t know who I was. I don’t know who I am either.
    Last I looked, I’m just one Chinaman among over a billion!

  150. odenfong says:

    Praying for Michael Spencer’s wife and family too. So sorry to hear about this.

  151. Believe says:

    Oden…will you put a good word in for us when your people foreclose? 🙂

  152. centorian says:

    AV,
    What do they know in SoCal anyway? I’ll take the Phoenix Preacher over Rick Warren everytime…..

    Chris,
    “Seriously, although I still find the whole anon name thing “ironic” given the types of comments here, I appreciate the explanations.”

    most here know who I am.. and I’m not of any great importance within CC…. I retain the moniker to protect the guilty as well as the innocent.

  153. centorian says:

    and one other Chris….. google can work against you when you are applying for a job or ministry position.

  154. odenfong says:

    Believe,

    It will go something like this… “What do you mean we, whiteman?

  155. odenfong says:

    I have a friend who just had open heart surgery two days ago and he is being taken back to the OR because he has excessive bleeding. I’m off to the hospital.
    Please pray!

    Love you all

  156. Lutheran says:

    Michael’s writings adn thoughts had a strong influence on me.

    Sad for us, happy for him.

  157. odenfong says:

    False alarm, he’s OK. Thanks! I’m still here.

  158. Wendy says:

    I saw this on my brother’s Facebook page. Great blog about a pastor’s worst enemy:
    http://headhearthand.posterous.com/the-pastors-worst-enemy

  159. brian says:

    You know with all the virtual ink being spilled concerning John Piper inviting Rick Warren to speak I did some searches on a few of the blogs. No discussion about the rampant child sexual abuse other then as an apologetic against the “Roman Church” ™, and nada about the Which Children of Nigeria. Now I understand having Warren speak is far more important than these two other incidental events but it does seen a bit disproportionate. I mean someone went on about the potential of RW being a member of the Council of Foreign Relations. Do people actually “think” like that, how utter ridiculous who the heck cares who Piper invites to his church.

  160. centorian says:

    yes brian, people actually do think like that.

  161. Luke says:

    @Odenfong, I have known Kempner & believe he has faith & the desire to help others. However I also feel he may be ill equipped to do so on the level he is attempting. It is not only the solicitation “plea deal” in question. Kempner has bullied, lied, & maliciously targeted the educators at the school he bought. He has smirked at & defied the parents of the children enrolled at the school, to try to make him step down, saying he’ll close the school so fast their heads will spin.
    I try to balance the man: father, husband, grandfather, I have known, with the Pastor/administrator, I have seen in recent months. So far, I’m at a loss.

    If you have the ear of anyone with decision making power @ BCC, PLEASE, have them consider Brethren Christen Schools as an option for keeping the school available to the community. Rick Noicewonger has expressed interest, on behalf of ~Greater Long Beach Christian Schools~ in taking over the school for K – 5.

    @ Chris Long… YES!!!! The issue should not be the arrest, but the character of the man. There are many other ethical issues that need to be addressed at the same level as the prostitution. Unless that is done, it will seem that Kempner is not receiving the grace that God intends for all men

    @ Concerned: The teachers have indeed stepped up for the children. In this case they are the furthest thing from yes men you will find. It is unfortunate that Kempner has made their work environment such a hostile one. My heart breaks for each one of them, and throughout all this they are still able to teach the children with joy, because what they do is a ministry, not a job. Of all the teachers at the school I believe there is only one receiving a tuition break for an attending child.

    @ Dreamer: the CC pastors did not convince the Church Board to change their minds. They told them, as a condition of binding arbitration (in which Kempner was allowed to bring an attorney & the church board was allowed to bring their bibles) that CC has “hereby reinstated Pastor Kempner as leader over the church & school”

    Just know there are many layers to this story, not just the hot buttons that make for good blog. It would be nice to be able to make sense of it.

    I feel that maybe God needs this school to lay in the tomb for a period of time so that when it comes back there can be no denying, IT WAS GOD!!!! If He sees fit to break the school & resurrect it we must find our role & serve His purpose.

  162. Believe says:

    Oden…it’s Italian-Irish-Scottish-French-English-Native-American….or Redneck works fine, too 🙂

    “What do you mean, ‘you people’…” TT

  163. Believe says:

    Luke, whooaa..am I reading this right?

    Please clarify…Kempner agreed to Binding Arbitration…and the 3-person team of “Arbitrators” from CC which included Rolph made a decision to reinstate Kempner?

    But Kempner is disaffiliated from CC, isn’t he? So how could CC reinstate him?

    Am I reading your post wrong?

  164. brian says:

    And in the walk between the raindrops category is Todd Bentley, he has a new webtv show, in second season show one Todd teaches you to assume the position. Yes, and I need a new irony meter.
    https://www.freshfireusa.com/heavenlyrealities

  165. Believe says:

    Luke said, “the CC pastors did not convince the Church Board to change their minds. They told them, as a condition of binding arbitration (in which Kempner was allowed to bring an attorney & the church board was allowed to bring their bibles) that CC has “hereby reinstated Pastor Kempner as leader over the church & school””

    I’m having a difficult time with this…what does this mean? Am I just obtuse and not understanding this correctly…or is this contradictory to other accounts of how this situation went down?

  166. dreamer says:

    Luke: “ Dreamer: the CC pastors did not convince the Church Board to change their minds. They told them, as a condition of binding arbitration (in which Kempner was allowed to bring an attorney & the church board was allowed to bring their bibles) that CC has “hereby reinstated Pastor Kempner as leader over the church & school”
    You are right; they did not “convince” the board to change their minds. From what I understand, these men went to this meeting with the idea that what the three pastors (Dave R., ?, ? said) would determine the next steps. Dave R. has since felt that he was deceived by Jimmy, but what do the others think? I believe that this is far more important than Brian Frye (the FBI agent) being on the board because it gives legitimacy to Jimmy’s pastoral position and continuation in this position. If these men have since changed their minds then why don’t they speak up? More importantly if they have disaffiliated BCC, then why are they so involved? I don’t think they know how much their “arbitration” impacted the BCC board. Perhaps I am wrong? If they truly care about this situation, then they must make their voices known to the board.
    Let’s make this clear. Disaffiliation is political. CC does not want the bad press from a sticky situation like this. However, they were instrumental in a decisive meeting after BCC had been disaffiliated. They can call it anything they want, but when you ask any BCC board member or church member they will tell you this decision was a critical point in deciding that Jimmy would remain as pastor. Had the CC pastors told Jimmy that he should step down, I believe that, we would be having a much different conversation.

  167. dreamer says:

    By the way, my research indicates that Brian B. may have been involved in the arbitration? Michael, can you confirm this?

  168. brian says:

    This is probably rather stupid and pathetic on my part but to be honest when I got the boot I knew things that could have sunk many of the folks at the ministry. I could have gutted them, that would have been the evangelical thing to do but I slithered off like the snake I was, maybe still am. I mean the things I knew were simple mistakes that could have been twisted to let me get even. I just could not bring myself to do it to them, I guess that makes me not much of a man. Religion is extremely strange to be honest.

  169. Chris Long says:

    First, being new to the Christian blogging game, I didn’t know who Michael Spencer was until I looked him up. May we all pause and pray for his family, that God would grant them much comfort and peace at what must be/will be an extremely difficult time for them.

    @Pineapple Head: A ha! Mystery solved! 🙂 Thanks for letting me know.

    @Nomansapologist: Thanks for the welcome and the explanation. It seems amazing to me that this could happen, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

    @Erunner: Thanks so much! 🙂

    @ Centy: (do I get to call you Centy too? 🙂 ) Thanks for the info.

    @ Wendy: That article you shared was VERY helpful and full of key reminders. I think I shall print that one out and paste it to my forehead. Thank you!!

    @ Luke: I wasn’t going after Kempner’s character at all (I really can’t). The whole situation thoroughly saddens me and I know that God has used Jim powerfully in the past, and I don’t write Jim off for one second – God is ABLE! None of us are perfect. We’re all sinners. And we’re all capable of being prideful (see Wendy’s post) and being stubborn about repenting, etc. However, before Jim can go forward and healing can begin all around, a true acknowledgment of sin has to occur (if it hasn’t) – repentance before the Lord and receiving the Lord’s forgiveness, and then seeking to right the wrongs as best he can with others (including seriously asking for forgiveness, and I believe probably stepping away (stepping down) from the situation – for at least a while).

    Wisdom to me would seem to dictate that step 1 is to “stop the bleeding” – staying seems to only be keeping the wound open and bleeding. Once the bleeding is stopped, everyone will be open to thinking a little clearer. Then if true repentance occurs, forgiveness is sought, etc. then it will be easier for people to extend forgiveness and grace. As long as it appears (even if it is not reality) that he is just looking out for himself, is arrogrant/prideful, is unrepentant, etc. – then it’s going to be hard for anyone (including himself) to go forward.

    With that said, I hope that if Jim does do this and sincerely repents and does everything in his power to right the wrongs, that all that have been so vocal against him, will be just as quick to forgive and extend grace to Him with the love of the Lord. If not, that’s just as much a problem IMO. But first things first…

  170. odenfong says:

    Luke,

    I have absolutely no influence with Jim or anyone on the board of BCC concerning either the church or the school. I’m not even close to being in the loop. My primary interest in this is to see the school continue to not only exist, but to flourish.

    My previous comments addressed what I considered unnecessary fear towards the FBI board member simply because they were afraid that he would use his position as a Federal law enforcement agent to intimidate parents, teachers or ex church members.

    Perhaps I should not have given my personal observations on this board member or his wife (whom I perceived to be godly believers). I don’t know this couple personally. I have never spoken to either of them.

    I also endorsed another continuing board member because I know him (and his wife) to be godly. But my intention was not to influence anyone’s opinions in this matter.

    I did not hear about the teachers being “bullied, lied to, & maliciously targeted.” Nor had I heard about the parents being “smirked at or defied or the comment that, he’ll close the school so fast their heads will spin.” I attended one meeting, but I kept taking my baby out of the room because he was making some noise and annoying some of the participants.

  171. Believe says:

    Brian B…and CC…take heed to this example…and learn some lessons.

    Binding Arbitration with CC in control of it is a good idea.

    People are testifying on here that many were waiting to see what CC said regarding Kempner…as that would pretty much make up their mind about the situation.

    There is an expectation of Godliness, Wisdom and Fairness…people believe that you guys (CC hierarchy) are Holy and Just and have everyone’s best interests at heart.

    Here’s where you need to improve…because you guys are “good guys”..especially a guy like Rolph..and don’t understand how the manipulative sinful “wolf” mind works. Kempner is either a Brother who has fallen into some serious sin…which clouds his judgment…one lie leads to another, and another and so on…like a house of cards….or he is a “Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing”…either way, you guys aren’t currently equipped to deal with his type of lying manipulator.

    That’s why you need a 3-person Panel for your Arbitration Team…that includes someone like me or someone else who has seen the Dark Side and knows all the “tells” to look for. Often times (and your FBI Board Member can confirm this) agencies will hire the best Hacker or best Bank Robber they’ve come up against…to help them catch other Hackers and Bank Robbers. Good Guys have a hard time understanding the mind of Bad Guys…because they make assumptions from their personal experiences and don’t have the capacity to see through glaring (to me and some others) signs that something is very very wrong.

    One guy like Rolph, one guy like me (or someone who has a church BS meter built in), and an attorney to make sure everyone stays inside the lines. An attorney who is not a pastor but Laity…but is part of CC…not a Roger Wing, who is too close to CC pastors…an attorney who has a heart for CC, but not cozy with pastors.

    The CC pastor and board MUST submit to the authority of this panel and their decision…or no Dove. A rider should be placed on the assets of the church…so that if this pastor and board is ruled against…CC removes the offending pastor…or disciplines the offending pastor (a leave of absence, public statement/confession, restoration process, etc). In serious cases (determined and defined by CC) the pastor is disqualified and removed from that particular local church as head pastor…for good. The old board who made unwise decisions to that point is removed. The local church body then selects a new board and a process to select a new pastor begins…similar to a transition like Ricky Ryan at CCSB.

    This removes complete power and authority from the local pastor and his hand-picked board…when things go desperately wrong. This is fair and just to the Laity…people who have an expectation of integrity and fairness when they are drawn by the CC Brand…and Chuck Smith. Like it or not, that is reality…people really truly believe that each individual CC is going to be like Chuck Smith’s CC…that is a fact you cannot run from…no matter how hard you try with the “we’re not a denomination…everyone is on their own…but we’re a denomination in some parts”…you can’t pick and choose…it’s not working in “reality”. You either are, or you aren’t. Improve the System…or shut it down…or someone might make the decision for you.

    In Kempner’s case, this is how things “could have’ played out:

    1. Trouble starts. It is discovered Kempner had a guilty plea conviction for solicitation of a prostitute. Everyone freaks. Kempner does his thing and hangs on for dear life.
    2. The BCCC board meets, attenders freak some more, the school issue comes into focus…Kempner and the School cannot co-exist because of the conviction. There is turnover on the board, Kempner puts new people in place…the BCCC board votes to keep him in power. People freak even more, as that option shuts the school down..and make them uncomfortable besides the school issue.
    3. A group of people from BCCC who believe this is wrong and have exhausted the steps at the local level…then bring their case before CC Mother Ship. The Arbitration Panel reviews their claims…and contacts the local leadership…who rebut.
    4. The Arbitration Panel then makes a decision, based on merits, of whether or not to impose the Binding Arbitration clause in the “Franchise Agreement” (if you will).
    5. A hearing is set up with the pastor, board and the local church CC attenders. Both sides have the choice to have representation for that hearing. It may be that there are three parties, the pastor, the board, and the people.
    6. The issues are presented and hashed out…court-room style…OT Solomon style. You guys like Moses…you should like Solomon and OT Judges.
    7. The End-Game is the Panel votes…and a final Binding decision is reached, including course of action. Since all parties wave their legal rights to participate in this process…the final decision is the final decision.
    8. In Kempner’s case, there would have been a member on the Panel who would have asked the tough questions and sniffed out the BS. I’m confident that once all the cards were more clearly on the table, a decision to remove Kempner and put him in a “restoration” process would have been decided. The people of the church would have elected a new board..and an interim CC pastor..possibly someone from the CC Bible College…would have been put in place temporarily. Either until Kempner completed a “restoration” process…or if he was deemed disqualified to lead that fellowship ever again…then it would give time for the process of selecting a new pastor…who would be bound to the same CC authority.

    CCOF protects the pastor from the flock…sometimes (SOMETIMES) the flock needs protecting from the pastor (and his hand-picked board).

    Justice, fairness, righteousness…all very much from the Holy Spirit.

  172. nancy says:

    Oden,
    Awww … such nice words … thanks. I didn’t mean I was removed from the PP crowd … I meant I was long since removed from the ones that blasted me for being part of PP. I was no longer accepted by the source of the blasting … hadn’t been for a long time … because of that the blasting didn’t hold any power. Anyway … I’m part of the PP family … I may be the country cousin that lives far away but you’ll are stuck with me. 😉

  173. Dansk says:

    We’ve seen it before.

    The congregation takes ownership (in attitude) but has no ownership (in fact).

    You do own the character of Christ and the gifting of the Holy Spirit to the extent these have blossomed in your life.

    If you invest in Him and in your own maturity, you will not be disappointed.

    If you invest into the local church as an organization, especially if you taking ownership (in attitude) when you have no ownership (in fact), you may be disappointed.

    The Lord constantly warned us not to invest in things we could lose, and not to start wars we could not win.

    If you invest your life in the local church as an organization, your investment may sour, and you may lose everything.

    I know the pulpit will ask you to invest in “this ministry”.

    But…

    Invest into Him, invest into your own maturity and into the health of others, and do all these things in the context of a local church if you wish, and you will not be disappointed.

    Ministries come and go, but people are forever.

  174. Sorrow says:

    The issue of “arbitration” is in question here. My understanding of arbitration is that… A board of pastors, “judges” is appointed and they make a decision based on the facts. Such as a judge would make a decision on a legal case. In this situation, the supposed “arbitrators” or “judges” were there to help the church board make a decision. They themselves made no decision. I am not sure this can be considered an arbitration.

    The influence they had on the outcome of the meeting and vote is still very much in question. And the fact that this was an arbitration is in question to me.

    The bylaws of this church say a 75% vote is required to terminate a pastor.

    The bylaws also state that associate pastors and elders may have a vote.

    One associate pastor stepped up and voted.

    The vote was in favor of Kempner remaining in office.

    As we all know Kempner brought in two new board members. People who he knew were in his favor. Their two votes alone could keep him in office as they held 40% of the vote, thus nullifying the other 60%

    The elders were not allowed to vote as Kempner stated that there is no solid record of who the elders are. Although they attended elders meetings and prayer, ther was no “official” document stating who they were. Thus, nullifying their participation and vote.

    I really need to know the true meaning of “Christian Arbitration” this is a technical fact that I seem to not quite understand.

    As for the other issues a good brother led me last night to Psalm 37.
    This is the basis of my spiritual hope.

    God Bless.

  175. Sorrow says:

    PS, I forgot to add that the associate pastor who voted has been fired.

    Psalm 37

  176. Sorrow says:

    Believe.
    Kempner was NOT allowed to bring an attorney to the “arbitration” ……enough said!!!

  177. Sorrow says:

    Dearest Dreamer,
    You are not dreaming. You are hitting the nail on the head.
    I pray I can be as clear as you are.
    you see the facts as they are and see solutions in a way I struggle to see.

    May God let your voice be heard.

    Psalm 37

  178. sorrow says:

    Believe
    Thank you. I too trusted CC to bring fair Godly justice to this situation. It is not to late for them to save a church and a school.

    What they didn’t know then, they do know now. They truly could use the new facts for the well being of a starving and abandoned flock.
    I pray they do!

  179. dreamer says:

    Sorrow,

    Dreamer is a name not alluding to the idea of “dreaming” about my perspective here but in reference to that day when we will see Him face to face…All tears are wiped away… Everything else will fade in the light of His glory and grace!

    May our voices be heard…those who stand for truth, accountability, wisdom, and humility. It saddens me that the only choices apparently offered seem to be those who are “For” or those who are “against” Jimmy. His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. This is not about Jimmy. This is about what the Lord is doing in each one of our hearts. The last days are here. Soon we will all give an account to Him. This is not about us…

    Hebrews 12: 12-17 “Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears”.

    I pray that the Lord would strengthen all of us, strive for peace, and prevent bitterness from growing like Jack and the beanstalk.

    I agree that those who arbitrated (We know it was Dave R. and two others) would realize that Jimmy deceived them. Their decision was submitted to by the board and the church. If they think Jimmy should step down, they should tell Jimmy this. The did not. They agree with Jimmy, Brian, and another board member. The Associate pastor, who was fired by Jimmy, and two other board members were adamantly opposed to this. CC leadership has no idea how much their decision impacted this issue. This is what causes my anguish.

    CC disaffiliated BCC for political reasons. After this they (CC leadership) agree to arbitration. In this arbitration they decide that Jimmy should remain as the pastor. This decision or support or whatever they want to call it kept Jimmy in his position.
    Lord give us grace. You are returning for your children soon. We want to hear, “well done my good and faithful servant”. Prevent bitterness and anger in our hearts. This is your work, and without your grace we are nothing. I love you Lord.!

  180. Sorrow says:

    I have to make a confession to each and every one of you reading this….
    I am deeply troubled. I feel such a strong desire to be someone who makes a difference.
    I come to this blog in a desperate attempt to be heard, in a desperate attempt to be,… no to create as solution.

    I was in bed, reading Psalm 37 again and praying.

    All I could think about are the children of Prince Of peace School.

    I was at the school a week ago performing a service that God allowed me to do. I was looking at the pictures of children and their families. I saw a collage that asked the children questions. One of the questions asked was, “what do you love”. A boy wrote, ” I love going to school at Prince Of Peace School.

    I have not been able to shake that. It changed my heart and changed my focus, you see…

    We are all of us here adults. We have made mistakes, we have free will to make our own choices, we can chose our own destiny. But these children, they are in our hands. We make the choices for them. We set their path.

    Are we not more responsible for them than we are even for ourselves???
    If we sow the consequences of our actions it is by our choice?
    But the children sow consequences that they have no say in……OUR actions.

    I praise God that he is showing me this, I just may need the wisdom of this situation some day.

    I asked myself what if I needed this wisdom right now?
    What if I were in Kempners shoes how would I apply this. And I prayed/

    Praise God, for if I were in kempners shoes, and if I were totally innocent I would walk away for the sake of these children.
    For does not God say Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

    And does he not also say Mat 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    I would walk away and leave my fate to God. Yes it would be a struggle, but to receive Gods honor is some serious incentive.

    In this case I am even more disturbed. How can a man in such sin ignore Gods warning. ?How can any man who has the ability to rectify this situation not do everything in his power for these children??

    I urge CC pastors, anybody who attended the “arbitration”, Even Chuck at the local CC, someone who Kempner boasts about studying under…I beseech you with all my heart to step forward with vigor. To take the time out of your busy lives for these children.

    Do you think I am mistaken if I said God will bring you great honor in helping these blessed children and this wonderful school?

    Do you think God was mistaken when he wrote Mat 25:40.

    This is my plea. This is my heart. Yes this is my challenge, but even more, This is my Prayer.

  181. Sorrow says:

    Dreamer,
    Thank you again. Your insight and your compassion are an inspiration to me.

  182. dreamer says:

    By the way, I would love for someone in the know to call me out on statements such as “CC disaffiliated BCC for political reasons”. I would love for someone to explain to the scattered sheep and hurting parents, why CC disaffiliated BCC (Because they didn’t agree with Jimmy) and then arbitrated in favor of Jimmy. This seems like a political game? (to me anyway).

    I understand if BCC board was completely opposed to truth and wisdom from the arbitrators, but it sounds like everyone (board members, church members, and parents) were looking to the CC leadership (despite the disaffiliation) to come in and provide Godly wisdom. This did not happen. They confirmed and supported Jimmy (Perhaps not in the heart) in their words and actions. Ask any board member. CC backs BCC. For the disillusioned (Jimmy and Brian Frye) they will tell you that:

    1. CC (Chuck and Brian B.) fully support Jimmy as the pastor.
    2. Jimmy is seeking counseling from Bill Welsh (CC Refuge) which Bill denies.

    So what is the truth and how does CC support this behavior? If they do support Jimmy then why did they disaffiliate BCC? If they do not, then why did they tell the BCC board that Jimmy should remain in the pastoral role in the arbitration meeting? Jimmy told parents that he is seeking counseling from Bill W. When pressed Bran Frye confirmed this. Bill W. told (someone?) that he is not doing this. So what is the truth. How many lies and deception do we need before the facts are evident?

    Even though CC has “disaffiliated” themselves from this situation, their influence remains. They have the power to determine the truth and “recommend” (which is powerful) that Jimmy step down.

    May they (CC Leadership realize that they are not neutral despite the disaffiliation.) Their wisdom, experience, friendships, and awareness is powerful not only to men but most importantly to the Lord. They WILL be held accountable to the LORD for their decision and recommendations.

  183. Not Alone says:

    dreamer says:
    April 6, 2010 at 10:40 pm

    re: Dreamer, this is my opinion and just an opinion from observational gut feelings. We are not going to see SoCal CC doing anything that does not benefit them or their public persona (as they see it). It is an awful thing to finally wake up to the understanding that these leaders are NOT going to act in a way that we would think a man of God, should act. I say that after seeing how SoCal CC’s non-response/non-action with regards to Calvary Chapel Visalia and it’s pastor’s wicked 30+ years deeds. The bottom line for me, just me, IMO is that SoCal CC is just a business in the entertainment industry. I can’t describe how earth shattering it is to think that most modern large Christian movements are run by men who use their earthly knowledge to put on a entertaining show, instead of their biblical knowledge to shepherd their flocks. It seems that what is black and white to us, is shades of gray to them (SoCal CC) to manipulate as they see fit.

    I’m just naive it seems, I believed the church was ran by men of God. I know, that’s a crazy thought. I don’t believe that anymore.

  184. Sojourner says:

    This is such a sad story. God used Jimmy in a huge way many years ago in the Spokane area. Multitudes came to the Lord and they brought their friends and relatives to church, and they got saved. The man had a real gift to make your heart bleed peanut butter! You just wanted to know the Lord. We were all sad to see him leave because he spoke to the heart at that time, but it has been many years ago (the early 1980’s). And it seems like the church in general has lost it’s love. The sheep have lost their love and the pastors as well. Just speaking in general terms because there are loving sheep and pastors yet, but it seems like we’ve grown cold.

    Maybe Jimmy changed over the past 30 years. I did not know him personally, at all, but from the pulpit, he shared the love of God, anyway.

    Our real enemy, the devil, knows how to take people down and with them, entire flocks. We esteem these men too highly in the first place (been there and done that). All are flawed sinful men–like all of us. But when they get caught, they are big trophies for the devil. Look at the damage being done.

    None of us can cast stones because we are all rats! And God can still use repentant rats (what else can he use but sinners saved by grace?). We are it and we are scary!!! But my heart goes out to Jimmy and those who are in the midst of this turmoil. Having been through many church fiascos (all Calvarys), I know how hard it is. But over the years, I have seen that we as sheep need to take the men off the pedestals and remember that the Lord is the head of the church—whether it is a church of 1000 people or 2 or more!! Sometimes it’s safer to stay home and read your bible—keeping your eyes on the Lord alone, who is the head of the church. Often the pastors get too big for their britches and forget that HE is the head of the church and they lord over people. The head of the church should send the signals to the various body parts. But when the pastor usurps this role, then the brains are gone. The pastor is merely a belly button or finger, like the rest of us. He just has a different gift. But the head has the brains.

    It’s a sad situation for him and all those people. I hope they can refocus quickly, back on the Lord, instead of a fallen man.

  185. Amazed says:

    Wow. I have been watching this blog, actually I was watching the .com blog until I got kicked off.(or so I thought) It was just today I discovered the site was hacked and had moved here.
    The things I have read….all the different perspectives, the concern, the depth of passion this issue has brought to light has shown me a world in the church I never knew existed.
    I have read pain, anguish, anger…seekers of wisdom…political views…social implications…fear….and a fight for justice and righteousness.
    The phoenix preacher definitely has his hands full with this site and its issue and the passion that is stirring among these folks.
    I would like to thank him as I have had time to look around and see value in the work he is doing here.
    I dont think I will ever be the same after coming here.

  186. sorrow says:

    I just read the whole thing. I have to say, some of you locals are really smart. I just learned so much. Thank you.

    I also had my eyes opened to a kind of peripheral issue that I think I can discuss with you guys without getting all riled up.

    I see many people, including myself really having a deep concern for the children.
    I also noticed that when BCC bought the church and the school ,there was never a sense of the church and school being one.
    I guess what I am trying to say is, that in hindsight, I wish I could have been a part of a movement, of a church that put its focus on the school on those children. Be a partof a huge support mechanism. How we could corporately pray for them, how we could help with the schools needs, how we could provide worship ministries, and tutoring…..thats just to name a few.

    I wish I would have realized this sooner.
    And yes I know Jesus should be the only glue necessary to hold a body together, but maybe a united purpose has a merit to be considered. It may have changed something, even a little if the body united for cause.

    I hope that made sense to ya all.

  187. sorrow says:

    I dont know where everyone is but I sense I tiredness here.
    I just need to get this off my chest and I hope its read by Michael and the family here.
    I have been browsing the site and I see the family atmosphere. I see you guys all talking about a whole spectrum if issues and I see friendships.
    I have really let myself get wrapped up this issue to an unhealthy level and I ask that you just say one prayer for me that I do not lose perspective.
    God told me from the beginning he was going to show me things and that I should use them in discernment for my family. That I may witness to them and guide them in a Godly manner. Protect them and move them in a safe direction if need be.

    I lost site of that here and started spewing in a way that God did not anoint me to do. I checked it once, but then did it again.

    I would like to hang around for a while and learn and maybe even be an asset and a friend.

    Self control is a true gift of the spirit.
    I hope you will all forgive me for my loss of self control and pray for my focus to remain on Him. Just one prayer will do. I believe in the power of prayer….

    I admit my mistakes and REPENT.

    Thanks and God Bless

  188. BrianD says:

    Sorrow, you are loved and embraced. Welcome.

  189. sorrow says:

    Thanks BrianD. I may have to change my name. Its topic specific.

  190. Please Note says:

    Sorrow-

    We have all lost it on here from time to time. Many posters that are here now actually started out as antagonists, only to have a change of heart as they engaged the community here…

    ‘No Longer Sorrow’ would be a great new moniker 😉

  191. Erunner says:

    sorrow, “I lost site of that here and started spewing in a way that God did not anoint me to do.”

    Can you share with us the spewing that God has anointed you to do? :mrgreen:

    Welcome to the PP as a new regular! God bless!

  192. No Longer Sorrow says:

    Well, the new name could be a liitle hard on those who want to address me specifically…..It will do for now. Thank you

    And Erunner, thanks for the goooooood laugh.

  193. No Longer Sorrow says:

    I was actually thinking of “Searcher”. It describes the search I am on in my preparation to enter His kingdom. Any comments ??????

  194. No Longer Sorrow says:

    The truth is my name is Michael. Do ya think that one will work ??

  195. jlo says:

    Sorrow, No longer Sorrow (NLS), Searcher, welcome to the PP and will be praying for you.

  196. odenfong says:

    No Longer Sorrow,

    Maybe, Michael the Less or Michael the Greater, depending on how you are feeling and our pastor Michael is feeling ;).

    Even if you change names, let’s pray that this will continue to describe your heart. In truth, we need not sorrow for long, for help is always on the way. Hold tight, don’t faint, be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. God rules and men don’t. They just don’t know it yet.

  197. No Longer Sorrow says:

    Oden. Pretty good my brother. Maybe Michael the Archangel. Or maybe not.

    jlo, thank for the NLS. now thats easy. No Longer Sorrow does describe my heart. Where I was before I knew our Lord and where I am now.

    You guys are all blessing me big time.

  198. Sarah says:

    NLS….praying for you tonight, and for all still in this situation. What a tough time….and yet I continue to hope that God is going to do something wonderful in your midst. People say I’m an optimist 😉

    On the other….any time someone comes with humility this group is pretty eager to forgive and to accept. I think all of us have been in your shoes in differing ways, and have lashed out here a time or two. Maybe that is what makes this blog unique; we lash out but we end up coming back and saying sorry.

    Anyway, just wanted to add my welcome to you.

  199. No Longer Sorrow says:

    Sarah.
    Thank you. Your prayers have been profound and your timing impeccable. You have inspired me to pray at times I wanted to speak. May God hold you close and keep your heart tender.

  200. No Longer Sorrow says:

    You know family. This issue is far from over. As an outsider / insider, the next few days need extra special prayer. I was going to say “there is an opportunity for Gd to move” But I realized God moves in His own ways. I just want to ask you all to pray. I also want to guide myself very carefully. Those of you who have acknowledged me today can surely understand the tender ground I am walking on.

    Thanks guys

  201. Believe says:

    NLS….welcome bro.

    Are you kidding, no one lashes out on the PP…and no one
    EVER loses self-control! on here 🙂

    Happens all the time…part of being attached to the flesh and being Totally Depraved 🙂 (that was for Papa Michael).

    NLS, you said, “I admit my mistakes and REPENT.”

    That’s probably one of the biggest single frustrations of many in the PP family…we’ve all (or many have) been hurt by “pastors”…many CC…and we just can’t understand why these guys don’t swallow their pride and repent when confronted in obvious sin…over and over and over. It tempts one to be angry…something I struggle with…God forgive me.

  202. No Longer Sorrow says:

    Believe,
    May God forgive you and I both. In simple NLS language, nuckleheads can be very frustrating. I am an example of that frustration.
    You have said some amazing things here. I have seen you lash out, I have seen you seek forgiveness, I have seen you bring forth words of insight and knowledge.

    You may get sick of me cuz I will be asking you lots of questions.

  203. Believe says:

    NLS…ask away…and look forward to many discussions with you 🙂

  204. Believe says:

    PP MIchael…still reading up on TULIP and Arminius and Calvin…will get back to you (someday)…so many questions and responses…but am tired of wearing you out without being more well-informed.

    Already discovering some very interesting things…nothing new under the sun…but new under my sun. 🙂

  205. Nonnie says:

    NLS, I just wanted to give you a welcome as well! It is morning here in the UK and I am just catching up.

    This is a wonderful place to be. Very much a “family” and sometimes we say things we regret and then have to apologize for, and there is love and acceptance. You will grow here, be challenged here, laugh and cry here. You will praise, worship and pray here. This site has been a real gift to my heart. Be encouraged my brother, you are loved here.

    I will be praying today for the school and church situation that is such a heartache for you and many. Praying for those kids too!

  206. Not Alone says:

    Welcome NLS, I also have had a few angry rants and took a break to return with an apology. What’s nice is how quickly everyone forgives and embraces you. It’s a dynamic I have seen happen at least a few times a week and it could almost seems like a tactic to get the back and forth, shaking. Words on a page don’t always communicate how we really feel. Just remember that your voice is important. You might get pounded sometimes, but don’t quit.
    🙂

  207. Jake says:

    Your willing to disclose the identity of an FBI Agent recklessly on a blog? Just think about that. For the safety please remove the info.

  208. Michael says:

    His picture was on the website…so he must not be too worried.

  209. Michael says:

    He’s also free to contact me with his concerns…and then I can ask him why he is upholding a defrocked pastor and ruining a school full of children.

    phoenixpreacher@gmail.com

  210. luke002 says:

    I was out of town after I posted. I see others have answered many of the questions created by my post. Thank you.

    As much as I want Prince of Peace to remain open so that the children in this community can experience the loving, Godly, & superior education, Perhaps it is not God’s plan.

    I wonder if the school may be so broken, that God will sacrifice it, let it lay dead, & resurrect it. Leaving no question as to whom is in control of the school.

    The school is having their annual “Country Day Fair” this Saturday, I hope those of you local bloggers will try to attend.

    In HIS grip.

  211. savdsl says:

    There is a spirit of fear among many of those left…
    I was one, God is cleaning up the mess.

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