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36 Responses

  1. Babylon's Dread says:

    Jagged Edge – “to know Mary is to know Jesus” such claims do little to advance the Gospel. I see nothing of Marian devotion in scripture beyond the birth narratives. Even the little shred of evidence Revelation does not take us to that kind of claim.

    The JE article is just an affirmation of Catholic Marian devotion and I don’t know why we have it here.

  2. Michael says:

    BD,
    The Jagged Word is a very conservative Lutheran site. Everything I post is for thought and discussion…not necessarily agreement.

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    “What would it take for evangelicals to turn on Trump.” To begin with the critics would have to understand that Trump inherited the Republican affinity of evangelicals. Trump’s twitter feed and mannerless public persona is not going to shake anyone from a whole list of views.

    There is a basic underlying reality of American politics that I never hear anyone raise. Evangelicals are hewn out of the Protestant work ethic and the idea of personal responsibility. When we hear the democrat position it is an unending array of promises to solve every problem by corporate responsibility. Every political speech is promises of more benefits from a government that is already overdrawn to the point of never being able to pay.

    Further the Cyrus motif that was played out in many evangelical circles did not promise a righteous king simply promised the favor of a pagan king.

    Shaming evangelicals is a fools errand. It may cream away a thin layer but it won’t answer the question of “what would it take for evangelicals to turn on Trump.”

    IF you want to know the answer ask– I am simply saying they have not even sniffed at the question much less the answer.

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    Michael,

    Noted and not really offended … concerning Mary

  5. Duane Arnold says:

    BD

    If it’s any comfort, the article on Mary went a bit further than I might…

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    Duane,

    That is helpful

  7. Em says:

    “Evangelicals are hewn out of the Protestant work ethic and the idea of personal responsibility. ”
    That describes the ones i have known, but what troubles me most are those in the Church who feel a pressing need to reform the world – to bring God’s government to the here and now… If God says it can’t be done, – and i think He has – why in heaven’s name does anyone in the Church see that as a command to the Church?

  8. Bride of Christ says:

    ‘Populist Christians’ as opposed to ‘Cosmopolitan Christians’. This is an interesting distinction, but what does it really mean? After reading the article about Christianity Today”s editorial calling for Trump’s impeachment I had to pause and consider this question. Billy Frank’s son said that his father, who founded CT, voted for trump. Hoeever, I know more than a few highly educated ( Masters degrees) Christians who voted for Trump and then REGRETTED voting for him. How do we know that Billy Grahm himself would have regretted his support of Trump in light of recent fevelopments. Another observation; the article describes ‘ Populist Christians’ in a way that indicates they may have “authoritarian” tendencies. Perhaps that is what separates ‘Populist Christians’ from Cosmopolitan Christians’ – the populists what a human authority figure to be their leaders and idol; the Cosmopolitan Christians read their Bible, pray, and look to God for their truth and salvation.

  9. Em says:

    I know a few highly educated Christians who voted for Obama and regretted it… ?

  10. Michael says:

    I do believe we’re called to reform the world…that’s why we pray “thy kingdom come,thy will be done”..

  11. Jon Bartlett says:

    I like NT Wright on reforming the world. If the Kingdom of God is near/here, we should expect to see something of His eternal Kingdom expressed by and through His people, the church. Christians working to ‘reform the world’ are therefore making a prophetic statement about the Kingdom that is to come. I guess there is, of course, the problem that different Christians make different statements….

  12. Jim says:

    Personal responsibility… what a concept. Why is this no longer a baseline standard to be admired and emulated?

  13. Michael says:

    “Personal responsibility… what a concept. Why is this no longer a baseline standard to be admired and emulated?”

    I think it still is.
    We are in an economic transition, however.
    Think about the sheer number of business ownership opportunities that are no longer feasible in the age of Amazon and Walmart…

  14. Jim says:

    Michael,

    We are in a time of extreme economic abundance, and business opportunities are endless, with new opportunities replacing the old. They are just different (generally) than pre-amazon. The cost of entry is also much lower. Compare the start up costs of a brick and mortar, serving a limited market, to the cost of ecom to a global market.

    The fourth industrial revolution (built with the tools of the third) isn’t going away, and those that adapt will thrive.

    I believe that vigilant awareness and the willingness to adapt is part of personal responsibility.

  15. Em says:

    On reforming the world. .. perhaps it is a confusion of terms? Yes, we pray “Thy kingdom come” … followed by “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”… Will that occur before Christ returns? Is the Gospel a call to repent and receive reconciliation to our Creator or is it a call to reform the whole world? Possibly just different aspects of the message, but…? just not seeing it, dear Michael ?

  16. Michael says:

    ” Will that occur before Christ returns? Is the Gospel a call to repent and receive reconciliation to our Creator or is it a call to reform the whole world?”

    The Gospel is a call to both…

  17. Mm says:

    Why do so many make this idea so hard?

    To receive the love of God, the Gospel, in Christ Jesus should make one a “reformer.” Paul taught it over and over about how His followers should live and we could call it a “word play,” because we were “formerly” like those who do not live in His Kingdom.

    Is Jesus Lord? If so live according to His rule.
    While it may be hard to do so I believe understanding the idea really isn’t so hard to comprehend. But we all seem to have an excuse, don’t we!

    I think we’d rather debate what His Kingdom means and is rather than be practical and just live it. It’s kind of like the internet, we read about everything and participate in very little.

    Happy New Year.
    Let’s do it this year!!!!

  18. Michael says:

    MM,

    It’s directly related to the traditions we’ve been exposed to.
    Dispensationalism was about getting saved and going to heaven with a very low bar for the kingdom come on earth.
    You wanted off the earth via Rapture, not transform it by the process of heaven and earth becoming one place in the eschaton…

  19. Em says:

    Did Jesus try to reform Herod? We are called to a life of sacrifice and service (rapture sissies are a recent result of “The Late Great Planet…” i think) . Dispensation theology does not skirt a life in the here and now as Ambassadors for God’s kingdom, nor does it negate a servant life…
    Focus on the walk, your personal walk, and i think God can handle the rest.
    That’s what i think. ?

  20. Michael says:

    “Did Jesus try to reform Herod?”
    Yes.
    John the Baptist lost his head for calling him to repentance.
    We need some willing to lose theirs today…

  21. Em says:

    Hmmm… Point taken, Michael. But…………
    Sigh… guess i will go watch the Ducks beat Wisconsin….

  22. pstrmike says:

    “Every political speech is promises of more benefits from a government that is already overdrawn to the point of never being able to pay.”

    As so many who are familiar with classical literature have pointed out, democracy leads to socialism, and then to bankruptcy. Then comes revolution. We are destroying our children’s and grand children’s future and there is no turning back. In the meantime, roll another cigar for Che. Happy New Year.

  23. Em says:

    Re: 2:16 pm….. ? a duck bested a badger? Great game – wish both teams could ave won…

  24. bob1 says:

    As so many who are familiar with classical literature have pointed out, democracy leads to socialism, and then to bankruptcy.

    Can you give just one example of this?

  25. pstrmike says:

    bob1

    Why do I sense you just want an argument? Our own country could serve as exhibit A here. I think that is rather obvious and the reason I quoted from dread’s earlier post.

    You’re going to have to do some of your own homework on this if you are truly interested.

    Like different interpretations of the Bible, philosophical ideas are not monolithic.

    I would refer you to Aristole, The Politics, Bk III, VI; Polybius, Histories, Bk VI; Plato, The Republic VIII, IX; Toqueville, Democracy in America Ch. 5.

    Some of the ancients disagreed with each other and they used titles of constitutions with slightly different meanings. They won’t use the word “socialism, ” but in reading their descriptions of” the rule of the many,”or “the rule of the poor,” it is a fairly consistent description of what we would call socialism today. Essentially, socialism is a democracy that has gone from bad to worse.

    “The socialist system will eventually replace the capitalist system; this is an objective law independent of man’s will. However much the reactionaries try to hold back the wheel of history, eventually revolution will take place and will inevitably triumph.. . . ” ~Mao

    Obviously, communism could not be sustained in Russia and Eastern Europe, but I would suggest that their constitution is not a republic today. It is a blend of the three primary forms of government…….. and it took another revolution (albeit rather bloodless) to change it.

    One more, I would look up The Kyklos. Wikipedia actually has a generalized description of the movements and cycles of constitutions if you are not familiar with the concept.

  26. MM says:

    Michael

    “ You wanted off the earth via Rapture, not transform it by the process of heaven and earth becoming one place in the eschaton…”

    Thanks. I often make the argument, the failure of Christianity in general is it’s all about an individual getting to heaven. One doesn’t want to go to Hell so they become a Christian. To me the idea points to a highly self-centered me concept, which is in direct conflict with the whole message of the Bible.

    Yes it is a way too simplified one liner, but it does point awful close to the hearts of many.

    My answer is let God work on our eternity and walk with Him today. I believe Jesus often said something similar.

    Which should bring up the question, what does it mean and look like to walk with Him? The answer lies in why we study His teachings.

    Oh well we walked with Him one more day in 2020.

  27. Michael says:

    MM,

    Well said.
    It seems we’re torn between the under realized eschatology of the dispensationalists and the over realized eschatology of the Bethel crowd…

  28. pstrmike says:

    “My answer is let God work on our eternity and walk with Him today. I believe Jesus often said something similar.”

    He did. It’s been my experience that those sayings of Jesus go in one ear and out the other without much processing.

  29. MM says:

    pstrmike:

    My wife and I were just talking about the struggle to live with God and His teachings. It brought up what Paul confessed to in his letter to the Romans and how he struggled and remembered each day top listen to God rather than his own flesh/desires.

    The Bible is full of such examples from people of faith and yet we hardly ever hear about them from our churches. Could it be these examples come into conflict with many of our doctrines or traditions?

    Back to work, this year our vision will be perfect! 😉

  30. MM says:

    ” top listen”

    to listen…

    This year I should pay more attention to the auto-spell feature.

  31. Em says:

    MM @ 6:39 – if you are Christ centered, you cannot be self centered, but it does take concentration and focus

  32. Nathan Priddis says:

    Michael.
    The problem I see with corners of the Church I connect with, is the evolving eschatology of Heaven invading Earth. I see it as cognitive dissonance. Specifically, the disolving distinction of Heaven and Earth being seperate, just as spirit and flesh are not one and the same.

    I took part in Revelation home study series where I felt I was witnessing a conglomerate mix of opposing doctrinal types.
    Post-Mil/Pre-Trib/George Ladd/Preterism all rolled together into a future earthly resurrection. Heaven was not a place, but more a state of mind. Less noun, and more like an adjective.

    I did not see it as a future hope at all. Instead, I have to come back to life here, battle the Beast, fight the sinners and clean up the whole planet.

    Talk about a to-do list.

  33. Michael says:

    Nathan,

    In my theology heaven and earth are separated by the thinnest of membranes and the eventual outcome in the eschaton is heaven and earth becoming one place, the place where God dwells with His people.
    Your mileage may vary…

  34. MM says:

    EM

    The struggle is to be “Christ centered” and then the question has to be asked, what does it mean to be “Christ centered” and how does one know which center they are focused on?

    It’s clear following his instructions by themselves doesn’t make one Christ centered nor does claiming we have His Spirit in us make it so.

    It’s a life long struggle only to be relieved when He returns or we pass from this life to the next. I think to deny it’s a struggle is an indication one is possibly not Christ centered.

    Just thinking and easy answers always become more complex. But it is a worthy life to continue to grow and become more aware of His instructions for our life.

    Thanks!

  35. Em says:

    MM, perhaps we are dancing around the same truth… Renewing our minds – our center – does take time… ?
    God keep

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