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52 Responses

  1. Corby says:

    Regarding Millenials and speaking in tongues, I think it’s an interesting question, but the results aren’t categorical because it isn’t taking time into account. If you were to ask the people who are GenX (such was myself) when they were the age Millenials are now, I think you would see the same kinds of numbers. So it isn’t based on a particular generation, but a particular phase of life. Why do people perhaps stop thinking it’s important? There are a whole slew if reasons, but I would like to cite maturity.

    It’s another expression of what I refer to as “theological angst.” It’s been my observation that when a person hits young adulthood and they are more free because maybe they have moved, own transportation, whatever has allowed them to get out from under the theological tradition of their home, they discover new areas of theology and/or expression than they have been allowed to experience, or were perhaps even taught against.

    For example, there were droves of CC people who left CC for the young, restless, and reformed, because they had never heard it before, at least for themselves. It was new and exciting for them, and they changed camps. I also saw the opposite happen. People raised absent any kind of dispensationalist view changing camps because it met a need. I think the same is true for charismatic practices and views. It’s always very popular with young people. Theological angst.

    I think there are also stats that say that the time in a person’s life when they are both most likely to come to Jesus, or leave Jesus, is in young adulthood/college years. It’s a very transformative and malleable time.

  2. Em says:

    Re tongues, there seemed to be a manifestation break out among Presbys, Episcopals and R.C.s in the late 50s early 60s
    Seemed bona fide, but not part of my experience…. sincere, rational folks…?

  3. bob1 says:

    Eric Metaxas. Good grief! Where to start with such cluelessness?

    I guess we’re back to the “White Jesus” painting of the 1950s.

    Looks to me like perhaps he’s trying to shoehorn in his white “Christian” nationalist beliefs here.

    Problem is, facts are indeed stubborn things…

  4. victorious says:

    My heart grieves for John Ortberg. I agree that he acted independently and foolishly and broke trust with his church as a leader. I agree that his resignation was appropriate.

    But having read the backstory on the journey of his older reporting son/ former daughter who now disowns his parents; I can understand the shame and fear he was feeling as a father when dealing with the disclosure from his youngest son.

    The devil and his nuanced deceptions may seem to have the upper hand, but the day is not done until The Day comes.

    I am praying intensely for all the members of the Ortberg family, parents and siblings alike for healing and wholeness in the shadow of His wings.

    Grace and love wins without having to trade truth.
    However , the cultural narrative of gender and sexuality has been injected with deception and in the process devalued and dishonored.
    We may have a temporal but painful price to pray as we continue to tread and mentor others on the path forged by the One who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

  5. Owen says:

    Interesting article, “Does God work all things together for our good?”. While I have often thought that passage probably doesn’t mean what many like to think it does, I can’t quite see how the author of the article came to the conclusions he did.
    Romans 8:18-19, I’m not seeing how he makes the leap that these verses do not refer to Christ’s return and heaven to come. Especially when I read verse 25, “but if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.”
    I agree that we are Christ’s hands and feet in the world, as the author said. He makes good points there. I’m just not coming to the same conclusion he does with 18-20.
    I am, however, willing to be educated.

  6. This is totally fascinating to me.
    -Trump, Demon Sex and Deliverance.
    -Shortly followed by Michael Heiser/ Ben Worthington.
    Two sides of the same coin. I think Heiser’s theology is a real up and coming thing.

    Maybe somebody can help me out with Worthington. He was from Liberty, and became a Trump/ Republican surrogate in 2016? He was a figure in Republican echelons in some fashion? Is this him?

  7. Michael says:

    Owen,

    Giles is a preterist…I really liked Wrights work on this, though…

  8. Michael says:

    Nathan,

    Witherington is a UMC scholar from Asbury…

  9. Michael. Thanks. Wrong Guy.

    What did you think of the Ben/Heiser piece?

  10. Michael says:

    Nathan,

    I haven’t had time to work through it yet…Heisers books are on my list, but it’s a very long list right now…

  11. I dont have his books but I’ve heard a lot of his teachings. More then enough to get the bottom line. We have substantial overlapping theories. I believe he is substantially correct, and we may be seeing another eschatological model emerge. Something comparable to Darby sketching out Dispensationalism while convalescing in 1827.

    Its not the areas of difference between myself and a Devine Counsel Worldview that bother me. Its more a future foreboding that these concepts will develope over time into something truly dystopian. Right now it’s mostly the Mormons, Latter Rain/Apostlitic/Word of Faith that envision us becoming gods, or comparable.

  12. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I’ve got Heiser’s book on Kindle and he’s readable, although there’s yellow flags for me that he so readily endorsed Mark Driscoll’s Win Your War post plagiarism scandal on the one hand and that Mark so openly leans on Heiser’s The Unseen Realm while clearly having not bothered to read Heiser’s work on Demons. Heiser’s looking to be the “it” writer on the unseen realm and yet now that I’ve started into his work he seems pretty clearly indebted to John Walton, Loren Stuckenbruck, Graham Twelftree and other academics in the field of diabology and exorcism from 2nd Temple Judaism and Christianity whose works will never get read by low church American Protestants by and large. Yeah, there’s a lot we Protestants have taken whole cloth from Catholic traditions regarding texts in Isaiah and Ezekiel that were not originally about Satan and Jeffrey Burton Russell did a masterful job of explaining how and why those traditions about Lucifer and the Prince of Tyre were interpreted the ways they have been with respect to Satan since.

    So Heiser might be useful reading for someone who’s such a fundamentalist biblicist they never wondered why Jude was referencing Enochic oracles but this whole realm of research was the direction I wanted to go into if I could have gone to seminary and so, so far, Heiser’s coming across as writing stuff I’ve been familiar with for a while. Doesn’t mean I won’t read him, he’s a very readable stylist and the fact that I recognize so many of the scholars he references isn’t exactly a bad thing.

    I do wonder (since I’m early into Heiser’s books) if he’ll address any Walter Wink’s approaches to the principalities and powers. We’re well past the point where Bultmann’s considered “the” norm for Ephesians 6. I’ve been reading some African theologians and biblical scholars (Acolatse, Darko, and Moses) and so far I’m finding their criticisms of the Western approaches to Ephesians 6 post-Bultmann and even post-Wink to be pretty engaging. I’m particularly sympathetic to Moses’ thesis that Pauline instruction on what Christian spiritual practices and disciplines to positively cultivate is clearer than Pauline instruction on powers and that Western academic literature might benefit from remembering that.

    So if folks want to compare notes on Heiser I’ll be in a better position to compare notes on that later this year. For those who visit WtH there’s a two-dozen book reading list of what I’ve been tackling this year on diabology, exorcism and spiritual warfare spanning academic treatments across Reformed, Methodist and Jewish scholarship and more pop-level stuff.

    Nathan, I am a bit cautious about spiritual warfare fads, most especially after my time at Mars Hill, because spiritual warfare talk tends to be popular with professing Christians who seem to have literally no other way of grappling with the reality of relational conflicts. That and there is a nasty tendency among evangelicals in the US across the spectrum to collapse Christian traditions on spiritual warfare into American civil religion.

  13. WTH. Im really hoping you come back with your thoughts later. I want to hear your take.

    “That and there is a nasty tendency among evangelicals in the US across the spectrum to collapse Christian traditions on spiritual warfare into American civil religion.”

    That’s a big partial ingredient in what’s bothering me. Another point of unease is second temple literature. This is an era with some pretty intense enemies of Jesus of Nazareth, and his nascent followers.

  14. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Yeah, and I had conversations years ago online with Steve Hays of Triablogue about Jude’s use of Enochic oracles and how we can’t be that certain that citation actually meant approval. We can’t be sure that Jude’s invocation wasn’t part of a strategy to battle false teaching that may have been leveraging Enochic materials so … yeah … that’s a super-too-short version of why I’ve got yellow flags about 2nd Temple stuff being used so categorically to interpret NT texts.

    I hoe to come back and share some thoughts here or to write more extensively on the topic at my blog or a mixture of both. I do get a sense Heiser’s worth reading but I worry he’s going out on a somewhat speculative limb. Stuckenbruck has highlighted what a rat’s nest of X-Men level continuity trees there are about when/how/why the angels fell in Enochic strands of literature that I’ll want Heiser to at some point address. His fans seem to convey a rather stripped down three rebellions thing without getting into that stuff.

  15. Here is Heiser in his own words below. I agree with him in this sense, he is staking out a position that will evolve from the current (2020) state. It is by nature apocryphal. The future territory he list off is not really compatable with traditional eschatology in it various forms. I think as new form will have to be created, or hybridized as needed.

    (speaking here of Unseen Realm)
    “As I noted in the introductory chapters of The Unseen Realm, I view the book as a starting point. I have plenty of material for a follow-up book. Lord willing I will be able to produce that at some point..”..
    http://www.moreunseenrealm.com/?page_id=153

  16. Jerod says:

    Trump’s doctor may have picked up some remarkably odd beliefs, but is there anyone here who would question an outspoken Hindu, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist doctor if they were good at their jobs?

    Anyone else not associated with “Orange Man Bad” would be given the benefit of the doubt about their opinion on hydroxychloroquine.

  17. Jerod says:

    Can someone point out where in the Bible it says that if God doesn’t partner with us his kingdom doesn’t come to the world?

    I feel like any “super apostle” would try to make that exact same argument

  18. CM says:

    Jerod,

    In sermons posted on YouTube and articles on her website, Immanuel claims that medical issues like endometriosis, cysts, infertility, and impotence are caused by sex with “spirit husbands” and “spirit wives”—a phenomenon Immanuel describes essentially as witches and demons having sex with people in a dreamworld. If any doctor claimed this regardless of their specific religious background, they would be rightly derided as a quack. I guess physical, structural issues that are visible on an MRI don’t count in her mind. The problem is that statements like that indicate that said person is probably NOT good at their job. Especially since more information has come out about her.

    Second, there has not been a randomized, control trial with hydroxychloroquine that shows a statistically significant improvement in COVID patients. The Henry Ford health care study included the use of steroids, so there is no way to determine if the improvement was from hydroxychloroquine or the steroids. Given that other trials show there is an improvement from steroids, I would say that hydroxychloroquine was NOT the reason.

  19. bob1 says:

    Anyone else not associated with “Orange Man Bad” would be given the benefit of the doubt about their opinion on hydroxychloroquine.

    That’s complete and utter BS.

    I don’t give a crap who the doctor is — if they tell lies about the efficacy
    of hydrochoroquine, then they’re a phony and a quack. If you’re halfway literate, one wouldn’t fall for this. Doesn’t matter if President Stupid believes it or not.

  20. JoelG says:

    “Can someone point out where in the Bible it says that if God doesn’t partner with us his kingdom doesn’t come to the world”

    “Now the whole offer which Christianity makes is this: that we can, if we let God have His way, come to share in the life of Christ. If we do, we shall then be sharing a life which was begotten, not made, which always existed and always will exist. Christ is the Son of God. If we share in this kind of life we also shall be sons of God. We shall love the Father as He does and the Holy Ghost will arise in us. He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has — by what I call “good infection.” Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else.“

    – C.S. Lewis

    I’m not sure how His kingdom comes into the world without our partnership.

  21. bob1 says:

    Great Lewis quote, Joel G. Good stuff.

    Also, I don’t see how if you believe such, that there’s any connection to the “Super Apostles.” Makes zero sense to me.

  22. Jerod says:

    CM – if those beliefs resulted in maltreatment of patients then she should be fired. But they haven’t. The same is to be said for many Catholic and Protestant doctors who, regardless of training, still believe that some developmental delays and syndromes are the result of demonic activity in the family. The only way this affects their practice is that they fast and pray. They treat their patients with all the care and concern according to the best science and with transparency. The same is to be said for many Hindu doctors who believe in Kali, or Muslims who believe in the doctrine of In sha Allah. They don’t regard life as less meaningful or disregard natural science because they think God willed this or that person to succumb to sickness.

    Bob1 – she is on record with her colleagues claiming she has treated patients with hydroxychloroquine and has zero deaths. So… who’s the quack? The one who’s on record or the ones who won’t pull their collective head out to look at the record?

    JoelG – “from the Bible”. Do you have anything from scripture?
    Does God’s sovereignty end at our apathy? Does the appointed time of the end delay because the American church is lazy? I don’t think it does. I think we assume too much of ourselves.

  23. Jerod says:

    Bob1
    As far as I know “bringing God’s kingdom to earth” in a literal way, is a new apostolic doctrine based on works.

  24. bob1 says:

    She is on record with her colleagues claiming she has treated patients with hydroxychloroquine and has zero deaths. So… who’s the quack?

    Uh, Jerod — she is. Good grief. And if you believe her, well, I feel sorry for you. It also really makes me angry to think of how many have died because of this quack cure. I suppose in the end, you’ll believe what you want and it’s no skin off my nose. But right now in this country, believing BS can literally kill you. Or hubris. Look at Herman Cain — may he RIP.

  25. Jerod says:

    Bob
    Do you have an opinion that isn’t a sound bite from CNN?

    The quack cure has been used for about a century, and currently is on the WHO’s list of indispensable medicines. It was also used effectively and routinely as a prophylactic and treatment for SARS-COV-1.

    https://www.who.int/medicines/publications/essentialmedicines/20th_EML2017_FINAL_amendedAug2017.pdf?ua=1

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/

    Here some quacks from the epicenter and their opinion:

    “Discussion… Both hydroxychloroquine and chloro- quine have immunomodulatory effects and can suppress the increase of immune factors [29, 30]. Bearing this in mind, it is possible that early treatment with either of the drugs may help prevent the progression of the disease to a critical, life- threatening state. In critically ill patients with SARS-CoV-2 the use of corticosteroids may be harmful ; however the use of immunosuppressants (eg, tocilizumab) is not ideal either as they can suppress the immune system and lead to an increased risk of infection [32].

    In this setting, hydroxychloroquine may be an ideal drug to treat SARS-CoV-2 infection as it can inhibit the virus via its antiviral effects and help mediate the cytokine storm via its immunomodulatory effects.

    Based on work con- ducted in our laboratory, we recommend the concomitant use of low-dose hydroxychloroquine with an anti-inflammatory drug to help mitigate the cytokine storm in critically ill patients with SARS-CoV-2.“

    https://watermark.silverchair.com/ciaa237.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAABMowggTGBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggS3MIIEswIBADCCBKwGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQM69_ESPdfDOB_EYbmAgEQgIIEfepFLEWlYZuCcMfJIkrA52qQte2LfmiWtiNEoFWhvFoAe2999n6B5KQi1A8Re3yoYDRj8DBktH64PElW7eGzBp61hHbHa5A-MECV0B6-2GUu2E9S9TbORMjFVWyg9sBGQ1sc218EQIjQvAWGOh8vwwaaiq8Ie759ceGK_sGTtyd1MIdK1m7_QWLNFX_bcUwl1oYBIZSD5FJlPMlz5LWxD9o0PA7yHe_TgsGg9OIi-3eu80cOyHBKKV-sVgIiVqlOLRSKcJAeZ-M0zo68Pe71vlUTLKytg6oYtekaN2r-ReBANMzq9lKlMITrUhPBi0ZUrRdq4k_lfxXt_82MO9Tbr6dVdgpw5-9Af9DRen831sPvjftOhNyZRYm6f2ALy0YV3vfdoLDl5gKO1pSZ1loL0hQBDYmPcwYy94qPJLSmzemnydcFFxMk8APRPRjW6fqy6dZcFHgE5RUzbVaY1NtWZ9zka4e0J02Hed-RZYHwZNB9w06HKsm5QcyySYzeO9OmANrQ-Hn_YHBH27fGZGTtFzU64JmTg18Uy0kpx-3oiwFzBi99jaSviljD7YdP25nqWCu6nZi0LsvqKe1GQoreRQgWumiP06c-k5CgmALnvwuoRJTwv6PVtWkmt8AV7sw9Lv5myVWyhnAtEocmOiflNU_pkb_MT34MERLx2-3WabJc9_TXo8JUp0CjdhXPWTWsRXDNo22FLuNPcZCCO1x6tk_eTagaqPsg8Nw5tyqYspYPjhKvC7cPGfFye2UrnTKaMYhL9pBBOcWyitnaAOoBdA75X_gnWlwFXYLTFnSrNEe8kUFhHBR9wXJotOcqehvQzhn5balkfGSU1OzAxjqCnXQ7kLT1EfLqC_NMqZZPCRp5BuMYMOkqboSArj0sCg7SuXht68_wt6RS-jfFkuqVuKM2NZKErHK6ZJMB5fOQ9oqS0rSjoZvu0AmTW19NRWcC9g_rJMOjOrp3k9jL3QXViwPkqP4lQKtwhKd1YIPoKR-Xx2_q7axQDkpDMdMVTbTqTK9rRBbdv8-nbaNdLbZ1bDHO_iXl99bi_MYFoDCcs3RkZH2rmOoLV47uOlpOgQcTOoNhPrP-j80rqrSt-OjL9q2IeW7AIvMnRLeGV53ka1mrU2ICo6FW5a3Bwq6DsOe7g5hxNQTTWWTPcp_GRW6KAet37sQgd9AuKXC66JwiJHNZDGBsOpbXWIcpn3YQMQ2EPitBW8rIvrG0JNDKQ_gC29bjuGBFe_Xod4EP1V69-UMnisASCmg8kEonaRdCIaaLVt2sQIES3gMZiKMTpPg2dwH0DPDD2gVGbv4EFhMXzQa3-_KQFJcHmtu-Ur-HicFJYUDHycWJGOmGtTF1IDnOhIz9XxzJzLub_6NAgYYJwuvzkOQVttU1r0GpjAHTAY-Yfsi_rDpsPmdyaNDlNdzNSUtPa4Q-pxG_jNKHUx_8-lhfdVLHd7dMCVUl-gFh89ZgLUsZP5Vi7Q-LSSo5v_O_ihfC5ZF9tmgejJuy2GRLvRVUbxpRw4h6aEwCDLUdSg

  26. Jerod says:

    Well, Bob1, my comment is moderated because it has some fantastic links for you. In the meantime, I hope your doctor has an open mind. If he/she suggests it I hope you’ll hear him/her out🤔

  27. bob1 says:

    An open mind isn’t always salutary, especially when it comes to medical expertise. And lots of other things!

    This reminds me of a famous quote from the inestimable G.K. Chesterton:

    “The object of an open mind is to shut it on something.”

  28. Jerod says:

    Yes, pragmatism be damned

  29. JoelG says:

    >JoelG – “from the Bible”. Do you have anything from scripture?

    The Bible as a whole is the Story of God rescuing us and establishing His Kingdom, isn’t it?

    >Does God’s sovereignty end at our apathy?

    God gave us the terrible freedom to reject Him. Yet, “But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”“

  30. Michael says:

    “Do you have anything from scripture?”

    Jesus commissioned the disciples to bring the message of the kingdom…this is Bible 101…

  31. directambiguity says:

    Medical advice from an entertainer. Thanks, Michael.

  32. Michael says:

    He’s a doctor.
    Maybe watch the video before you comment…

  33. Michael says:

    Waiting for directambiguitys apology…sad that people are so radicalized that everything becomes a knee jerk political response…

  34. directambiguity says:

    He says he’s a comedian.

  35. directambiguity says:

    And an entertainer.

  36. Michael says:

    directambiguity,

    He’s a doctor…he’s speaking from his medical expertise and he’s speaking well and clearly.

  37. CM says:

    Jared,

    Point #1: Correlation does not prove causation (statistics 101)

    Point #2: She is claiming that they got better due to hydroxycholoroquine (where are all the medical records (redacted for HIPPA as needed?).

    Point #3. Because of Point #1, there is no way to know if was the treatment or other things. This is why a randomized clinical trial experiment is required (with a sufficiently large sample size).

    This is Statistics and Analysis of Variance (ANOVA) and Design of Experiments 101. If you had _EVER_ taken a course in statistics in college you would know this.

  38. CM says:

    And with people like this quack (and her supporters), all the anti-science, STEM illiterate Christians there are out there today, it is little wonder why people in the STEM fields want NOTHING to do with Christianity.

  39. bob1 says:

    10:06

    CM,

    Exactly.

    And then reactionary conservative Xns can whine and moan and play the “we’re persecuted” card.

    Got it.

  40. CM says:

    The point is there has not been a randomized control trial to show there is a statistically significant improvement for COVID patients when taking hydroxycholoroquine. There has been some (with further ones coming out in Aug/Sept) that have shown statistically significant improvement when taking steroids. And logically the steroids make sense. So inhaled corticosteroids are the much more promising and cheap treatment option. But then Trump has 60 million doses of hydroxycholoroquine he bought on the taxpayer dime he needs to unload.

  41. Jerod says:

    Hydroxychloroquine –

    Michael –

    noticed you didn’t post my comment with the 3 links to all the journal articles from WHO et al. There seems to be a lot of that sort of thing happening a lot of places. It’s your site, I respect that.

    I guess people can do their own research.

    Great commission –
    That’s not exactly right. That’s putting words in Gods mouth. Can’t respect that.

    To whom has authority been given? Not us.

    Matthew28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.(A) 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said,

    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

    And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Jesus commissioned them to preach the gospel, baptise, and hold fast to his doctrine. That’s it.

    Be safe people. God bless

  42. Jerod says:

    Michael

    My bad, sorry for the first part of that comment.

  43. JoelG says:

    “That’s it”

    Jared,

    Don’t forget Sermon in the Mount… the Kingdom rules by which we partner with God through obedience. Isn’t this what Jesus is referring to when He says “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.“?

  44. Jerod says:

    “Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”

    I see nothing in this chapter about a partnership. I see promises and commands on how to live a godly life on the natural plane so that our lives point to the father. But were we to hide our light in a bushel, Gods light would still shine. It’s HIS light, you see? It’s his city (kingdom) that is set on the hill. He sets it there. And that hill is his power, not ours.

    The world will you know we are His by the we love Each Other. It’s His work in us.

  45. JoelG says:

    I see what you are saying. I agree it is His work in us. Thank you, Jerod.

  46. Michael says:

    “On their return the apostles told him all that they had done. And he took them and withdrew apart to a town called Bethsaida. When the crowds learned it, they followed him, and he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God and cured those who had need of healing. Now the day began to wear away, and the twelve came and said to him, “Send the crowd away to go into the surrounding villages and countryside to find lodging and get provisions, for we are here in a desolate place.” But he said to them, “You give them something to eat.”” (Luke 9:10–13 ESV)

    You can parse it any way you like…but we are partners in proclaiming the kingdom and in doing kingdom work…

  47. bob1 says:

    And what about the whole idea of God’s providential care? That he does work through/utilize us for His purposes? As just one example: the Reformation doctrine of vocation — God doesn’t supply our food supernaturally — He works through/utilizes other people to get it to us.

  48. CM says:

    bob1,

    The miracle of the fishes and loaves is pretty rare, so yes God uses ordinary means (of which the doctrine of vocation in providing our food is but one).

  49. Jerod says:

    Joel – You’re welcome, but it’s not a point of division or ire. Just wanted to take the time to say hi in my own special way. Sorry if I came off as know it all, I think I’ve proven I don’t.

    Thanks Michael, I see your point. Don’t agree yet.

    Thank you as well, Bob. It’s always a blessing.

  50. Jerod says:

    I think what you guys are getting at is living a life faith/faithfulness. Of course God uses that. But in the end it’s he who is faithful. That faith is his gift to us. Jeez, I’m starting to sound like a Calvinist. I need to stop. 😉

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