Linkathon

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141 Responses

  1. Steve Wright says:

    Couldn’t get past the first paragraph on the political article.

    Right now, August 24, 2015, the leading presidential candidates in the USA on both the Republican side and the Democratic side are outliers* โ€” people who stand outside the world of professional, establishment politics and politicians.

    Not sure what Viola is looking at unless he wants an excuse to offer a bipartisan critique because Hillary is still way ahead and even Sanders in a distant second is about as much a professional politician as is possible. The fact the GOP has over 50% among the three outsiders (Trump, Carson, Fiorina) does not reflect at all on the Democrats who now are talking about resurrecting Biden, again, about as old-time pol as you can think of…

  2. Dan from Georgia says:

    This is crazy = christianpost article…

    PERFECT!!!!

  3. Anne says:

    Thank you so much Michael for the Charles Bowden link! A keeper for sure.

  4. DavidM says:

    Re the “Why you can’t trust the Ashley Madison leaks” article: the guy should have simply kept his mouth shut.

  5. Josh the Baptist says:

    From Olson in a comment on his blog:
    “Hardly any Christian theologians today take all of Genesis 1-10 literally, as “history,” –except within fundamentalist circles. ”

    Just a funny statement, because all Professors for any of the six SBC seminaries have to take Genesis literally. It is one of the few doctrinal qualifiers.

  6. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    LCMS split over the Genesis issue (along with Jonah and a few others) What became the ELCA left and the professors walked out of the seminary. 45 of 50 professors left choosing to make Genesis story telling.

  7. Josh the Baptist says:

    In a large way, MLD the SBC controversy started the same way. SBC professor published a non-literal commentary on Genesis…then all Hades broke loose.

  8. Josh the Baptist says:

    Looks like we are fundamentalists, MLD.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh,
    This book was about the splits and fights over the Bible. The 2 main Characters in the book? SBC and LCMS

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Bible-Harold-Lindsell/dp/0310276810

  10. Jim Jacobson says:

    Thanks for posting the link to the “false narratives” article. This line: “When it seems as if a false narrative may need help being legitimized, some offending leaders will enlist the help of well-known friends to express support and share the narrative” Reminded me of what GFA has done here: http://www.gfa.org/mygfastory/sponsors/ – even quoting guys who have been dead for many years. The GFA thing just gets worse and worse. I did notice that Levi Lusko, who was featured with a video testimony has been removed.

  11. Jim says:

    Nevermind. Levi is on this page: http://www.gfa.org/believerschurch/

  12. Josh the Baptist says:

    http://www.willowcreekchurch.org/our-staff

    Scroll to the bottom. Never DREAMED it would be that soon.

  13. Michael says:

    No way … I’m going to be sick . The public has no clue what this guy really is. They will.

  14. Josh the Baptist says:

    Saw it on Janet Mefford’s facebook.

    I honestly can’t believe it. This makes the Rick Joyner/ Todd Bentley debacle look like a lon, patient process.

    Shameful.

  15. brian says:

    “Never DREAMED it would be that soon.” I think it took way to long, I am personally bothered that Mark Driscoll was not restored in less than a month six weeks tops. The professional class are better than us and we need to know our place. Massive tongue in cheek.

  16. Bob Sweat says:

    Maybe their excuse is that he is part if ministry staff and not pastoral staff. Still disgraceful!

  17. Josh the Baptist says:

    Like, I almost understand adding him to the staff to support him financially and help him him heal, but promoting it on the church webpage?!? Wow. I noticed the senior pastor lists a bunch of his biggest influences and Tullian is about third on that list. Clearly an example of a starstruck fan pouncing on an opportunity to get close to his idol, and Tullian not having the good sense to turn him down.

    P.S. – I wouldn’t add him to the staff at all, just saying that if I found out years later that some church secretly supported him financially for awhile, I would understand.

  18. Josh the Baptist says:

    Brian – Driscoll was in another pulpit the same weekend he resigned.

  19. brian says:

    One key factor, in fact the only factor, did he gain any revenue?

  20. Josh the Baptist says:

    Well, I think it was more of a PR move. Sort of an early investment, so to speak. He was fertilizing the soil for the revenue that would come later.

  21. brian says:

    Yes Josh that is an important aspect of restoration so Driscoll is pursuing the spiritual path good for him.

  22. Michael says:

    I’m not feeling well enough to do a whole article on the return of TT, so I’ll just do a summary here.
    Narcissistic attention whore finds a pimp to prop him back up and they turn the house of God into a spiritual brothel. Jesus wept.
    That about covers it.

  23. Steve Wright says:

    I notice all those bios the people mention their families and children….with one notable exception.

  24. Em says:

    “He loves the beach, [moonlit walks?] loves to exercise, [abs are very important] and when he has time, he loves to surf.” well those ARE impeccable qualifications to minister Christ to us hoi polloi – i definitely need a refresher course in surfing…

  25. Josh the Baptist says:

    How could you post that fluffy bio of a guy who just got caught in adultery, exposed his wife’s alleged adultery, filed for divorce, and was de-frocked by the denomination?!?!?!?

    But, he loves to hang ten.

  26. Steve Wright says:

    If it is any consolation, word on the street here is a guy who disqualified himself and almost destroyed a large church, only to do the teflon shuffle down the street with the new mrs. is apparently finally out of options and living in his car….

    (Nobody ever discussed here….)

  27. Babylon's Dread says:

    TT rose quicker than the LORD himself.

  28. DavidM says:

    Regarding TT: it is incomprehensible. The hiring of TT to lead “Ministry Development” is as scandalous as his fall. I imagine the logic is that they’re trying to restore him, God uses broken people, blah, blah, blah. Of course, he IS Billy Graham’s grandson . . .

    John Angell James said to not restore a fallen pastor “until his repentance is as notorious as his sin”. How long did that take in the 1800’s? How long does that take today?

  29. Xenia says:

    I think one glance at TT’s glamour shot on his Twitter page tells you all you need to know about his guy.

  30. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Meanwhile, though I won’t name names, a number of guys who used to be part of the MH machine concluded they don’t want to be/aren’t cut out for vocational ministry and are doing things like construction work and bartending in the Puget Sound area, software/tech development, things like that. A number are still in formal ministry but the ones I know of are within a denominational network (Presbyterian, WtH).

    Trying to keep tabs on real estate transactions and keeping in mind we may never find out where those millions will actually end up for a while, if at all. Just because the blog’s finally gotten back to animation and chamber music doesn’t mean WtH isn’t keeping some tabs on things MH.

  31. I don’t get it. Is one like TT to be banned from all church work? I thought the qualifications and hence disqualification was in being an elder / pastor etc.

    Without judging motives, why can’t he work quietly in a non elder position in a church. As many here like to say – “find me the Bible verse that makes him vacate all church work.”

  32. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    MLD, that is a fair point to bring up. There is a difference between working for a church and doing so in a formal ministry capacity. Nobody would conclude the church janitor has sacerdotal privileges.

  33. Well, that is not the case here – the bookkeeper and the facilities manager are listed as ministry staff and I would not expect to see them in the pulpit either. The point is, if he is not in the pulpit and is not an elder in the church – where is the wrong? He is now a system guy.

  34. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t even think mortgage guys hire people just fired by their prior employer for (serious) cause, do they MLD? ๐Ÿ™‚

    …maybe the Lutherans have lower standards?

    (I would not hire a janitor for the church if the guy just cheated on his wife…)

    If he is not doing any elder-like ministry, then it is a double shame someone else with a family to feed could not be hired for that job…assuming of course there even is a need as it likely is a created job specifically for him.

  35. Steve Wright says:

    MLD…Looks like most of the staff leaders are called “directors” (music, nursery, children)…so director of ministry development sounds like a pretty frontline position to me. (My comment about janitor was not a crack but just an example of the most out of the limelight position one can think of…that said, I noticed on their site he is the only staff member not given his own picture and bio)

    Back in the day we hired a lady who was excellent at her job, and worked at one of our insurance companies we did a lot of business with. They had layoffs and she was one who went and we hired her before she cleaned out her desk so that some other agency would not grab her first. We did not really have a staff need, and we did have the money, so we just gave her a job.

    Of course, our money was our money, and not the Lord’s stewardship…and as I said, she was actually GOOD at HER job. A faithful employee indeed.

  36. Steve,
    So the punishment is starvation for him and the family?
    But now that you have shown you don’t believe the Bible, (or that you go an extra mile beyond the Bible) and that he is disqualified from being an elder … just as he would be qualified as an elder – that’s OK.

    How do you know that this is not part of his rehabilitation program? I am always wary of those with lack of compassion for a brother’s (I can still call him a brother can’t I?) plight.

    Is your church that sacred that there is no room for a sinner? Would you allow him in your soup line? But perhaps you are more a Paul whereas I may be more like a Barnabas.

  37. Steve Wright says:

    I know you are just being your ridiculous self, MLD. I decline to play further.

  38. Neo says:

    Anyone here ever endeavor in ull time public ministry? If not, that’s truly not a bad thing. However, if you have, while not excusing TT’s behavior both in and after said scandal…it’s a tough world. Not joking.

  39. Neo says:

    Here’s a thought…we all need the grace the New Covenant affords; as much today as the day we were born again. If not, even more. For me it is even more.

  40. Michael says:

    A coal mine is a tough world.
    A logger is a tough world.
    Working a job where the hours are long and the pay is low is tough world.
    Spare me the violins.

  41. Neo says:

    My sadness? Is TT’s lost potential.

  42. Steve, you never answered the “show me in the Bible.” I showed where it disqualifies from a certain purpose – nothing more and nothing less.

  43. Michael says:

    Please, spare me the damn “grace” comments as well.
    No one is condemning the man.
    If he’s repented, he’s in fellowship with God and all is well.
    He’s still disqualified from leadership.

  44. Neo says:

    I agree, MN.

  45. Neo says:

    Life is tough for us all. And also good for us all.

  46. Michael says:

    MLD,

    We don’t know the extent of his duties yet.
    When he’s the guest preacher soon, I’ll show you in the Bible…

  47. Neo says:

    God. Maybe I won’t last long in ministry. But have mercy on me.

  48. Steve Wright says:

    Neo, I’ve been in fulltime pastoral ministry in some fashion for 20 years.

    Don’t insult the board by comparing the challenges of ministry with a guy being able to keep his pants on.

  49. Michael says:

    I’m a little touchy on this one…been working on a TT story behind the scenes…and I really, really, don’t like this man.

  50. Michael says:

    I don’t deny him mercy.
    I deny him position.

  51. Neo says:

    I understand. I’ve wept more than a few tears over all of this.

  52. Michael – “When heโ€™s the guest preacher soon, Iโ€™ll show you in the Bibleโ€ฆ”

    And that is a big when — which could have happened even if he had taken a job at Home Depot. But as I said – his job right now seems to be as a systems guy for a church.

    “Heโ€™s still disqualified from leadership.” surely you have no indication that is a leadership position .. because in the same manner, a woman would be disqualified from holding that same position.

  53. Michael says:

    I’m done weeping for men who can’t keep their fly closed.
    Those tears belong to their kids and wives and the confused sheep left behind.

  54. Neo says:

    I hope not insult. I’m just recognizing crud. And aware of my frailty. Honestly, that I’ve made it “this far” in preaching the Gospel as a position in the church is a testimony of two thigs: God’s steadfast mercy and my faithful, resilient wife.

  55. Michael says:

    โ€œHeโ€™s still disqualified from leadership.โ€ surely you have no indication that is a leadership position .. ”

    Surely?

    Never be sure about what’s on my desk until you sit in my chair…

  56. Ahh, if only whether we liked a person or not meant anything.

  57. Neo says:

    Amazing to me that God uses the jawbone of a donkey. Maybe cuz then He gets the glory. I don’t know.

  58. Michael says:

    MLD,

    I don’t like him based on testimonies from those who have worked with him.

    Those things will have to wait.

    What we do know is that he is morally disqualified from leadership in the church.
    We know that don’t we?

  59. Neo says:

    It’s all a convoluted disaster. Lord, come soon, for my sake.

  60. Michael says:

    Neo,

    It really isn’t a disaster.

    A guy in ministry sleeps with a woman other than his wife.
    He is no longer qualified for ministry.
    The church moves on.
    The adulterer finds another job that his skills and morals are suited for.
    We’re done now.

  61. Michael says:

    “Director of Ministry Development”
    That sounds like leadership to me…directors are usually leaders.

  62. We know that he is disqualified from being an elder / pastor.
    I don’t know what you consider “leadership” – is the bookkeeper, listed under the same ministry staff considered leadership?

    Why would you go extra Biblical at this point.

    Why not just say “I think he is a snot and I would not let him on my church employment staff?”

  63. Michael says:

    MLD,

    He’s a quasi-Lutheran…you guys hire him. ๐Ÿ™‚

  64. Your guys beat us to him ๐Ÿ™‚

  65. Steve Wright says:

    I covered that. Look at the rest of the staff page…and by the way..how many people serve at this massive church..how many attend..

    And how many get their own bios?

    There is no way this is not a leadership position, and I would be curious if it existed at all before he became available on the free market…It’s like us hiring the insurance lady.

    And MLD, aren’t you at least troubled that if this were some sort of “rehab program” that the bio is 100% silent on such recent disqualifying behavior. That innocent Christians who may not know all the celebrities or read the blogs are going to be introduced to this guy in that innocency?

    Maybe even a woman or two…

  66. Pineapple Head says:

    RC Sproul, Jr.? Really? Wasn’t he already defrocked awhile ago?

  67. Michael says:

    We’ll trade you straight up for Rosenbladt… ๐Ÿ™‚

  68. Steve Wright says:

    Why not just say โ€œI think he is a snot and I would not let him on my church employment staff?โ€
    ————————————–
    I said that and your response was that I did not believe the Bible (and would deny him soup)

  69. Michael says:

    PH,

    He was in a bunch of hot water for various things…like spanking his wife.
    There was something else as well, but I’ve got too many scandals in my brain and I had to delete a few… ๐Ÿ™‚

  70. Steve, the bookkeeper is on the same page – the head janitor is on the same page. Intern youth workers are on the same page – it’s not like he is on the pastor’s page.

    This is funny – the new church seems to be Presbyterian – perhaps the denomination sent him there as a chance to serve in purgatory.

  71. Steve, that is not what you said – you want to deny him a position in any church.

  72. Steve Wright says:

    you want to deny him a position in any church.
    ————————————–
    Yes because he is an adulterer of a very recent vintage…(what you called a snot)

    I asked you before, some guy gets fired for embezzlement as a mortgage broker and a few weeks later is asking you for a job in the same industry but as one of the assistants to the brokers….you sign him up?

    Oh yeah, you don’t have an opening…you make one just for him when he comes calling.

  73. I checked this out further. Willow Creek Church is a plant from Orangewood Presbyterian Church in Maitland FL which is in the PCA – from whence came TT and they are the ones who defrocked him.

    This does now look a bit like the PCA sanctioned rehab program. But I don’t know beyond what I researched. PCA is a lot more controlling of individual churches than the LCMS

  74. Steve Wright says:

    This is the sort of thing I saw last night as to the Sproul Jr. scandal.

    I’m about to give up on you (X). Ligoner is good people. I think he and ligoner is handling this well. Ministry makes you more prone to this stuff, not less! Some people leaving comments sound like the cliche judgemental jerks that turn away people from Christianity.

    (To repeat..this guy thinks ministry makes you more prone to adultery websites…how can one talk to such a mindset)

  75. “fired for embezzlement as a mortgage broker ”
    That is criminal and a licensing issue. You can’t do loans without a license as I am sure is the same in the insurance business.

  76. Steve Wright says:

    Thanks for showing us the world has higher standards MLD.

    I’ll change the narrative so you can’t dodge…the guy wants a job. He won’t work with clients..he will just answer phones and file. (As if TT isn’t going to work with other leaders, servants or the general congregation..ha)

    If this is a PCA sanctioned rehab program, (which I seriously doubt) it really stinks.

    Besides a week ago the guy said the Lord was leading him into this new ministry of telling everyone about hurt and grace…that didn’t last long did it. Where was the rehab program when the tweeting was happening?

  77. Actually, my point isn’t to defend TT or his church – it’s solely to challenge attitudes here.

  78. Steve Wright says:

    Our secretary HATES it when she hears about some pastor cheating with the church secretary. Because she is a church secretary.

    Now you know why some of us get so impassioned over this nonsense with pastors. It’s bad enough to have all the false charges and hate from the haters of the ministry…without all the fuel some of these guys add along with their sycophant fanclubs.

    Out for the night…

  79. So you want him tossed out so people won’t say bad things about you????

  80. hwagc? says:

    “nobody needs court jesters except I guess, the people in the court” ~ Charles Bowden.

    That is very profound and an indictment that we would rather be entertained or be exposed to that which we accept as truth or hope to be true, rather than being challenged by what actually is true. We don’t want to know the uncomfortable stories of injustice, whether it be tyrannical pastors, Planned Parenthood, or the plight of Mexicans and others fleeing the crossfires. What the hell, take another hit, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

  81. Em says:

    for the life of me i don’t see why Tullian couldn’t have found employment in the community… surely, in all of Florida there is a business who’d like to give him a try… or he could go to work for Uncle Frank and pick up a marketable job skill

  82. brian says:

    Personally I can’t fault TT for getting back into mid level management in the industry. His skill set is geared towards that function and utility and pragmatism are paramount. I could understand keeping him out of “service” and even denying him any type of grace if he was not part of the profession, that is a given. He also has pedigree and that means a great deal as well. It is highly effective that he was back in the saddle so quickly.

  83. Randall Slack says:

    Nothing Willow Creek does surprises me anymore. From the beginning they have sought to remove “the offence of the Gospel.” Most recently, their own survey showed that people were not “maturing” in their faith. So, instead of returning to teaching the Word, they have decided to “re-invent” the mid-week service.

    To employ TT without any repentance is disturbing. A friend of Charles Spurgeon was asked if a may who committed moral failure could be restored to the ministry. His response was, “Only when his repentance is more notorious than his sin.” By filing for divorce from his wife he is certainly continuing in his sin.

    This situation can only get worse, as time will demonstrate.

  84. j2theperson says:

    If you honestly don’t see this job move as the first step in Tullian’s jump back into ministry then you are being hopelessly naive. That’s why it’s so offensive and wrong, because it intentionally sets him up to return to the pulpit. Deny that all you will, but it won’t be too long before he starts preaching again.

  85. Randall – this is not the same Willow Creek you are thinking of. These are a bunch of Calvinists whose leadership comes out of Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando.

    These guys are in central Florida whereas the church you are thinking of is in Illinois.

  86. j2,
    If he ends up back in the pulpit I will agree with you. But give some thought to the theology of what people here suggest — led by Steve.
    The Bible only presents the standard as the to the elders / pastors. Some here want to extend it to any ministry, BUT they somehow limit it to “churchy” ministry – the ministry that happens on the church property. Wiped out from all of that is those of us who are in ministry through our vocation – totally denied by evangelicals – as is suggested when folks say “well let him go out and get a ‘secular’ job … as if a secular job is any less ministry.

    Also suggested is that there is a difference in money. It was brought up that it was OK for TT to go get a job as a mortgage broker, because he would not be paid with God’s money (look it up above – an objection was actually made that he was being paid with God’s money.)

    Again, this is not a defense of TT or this church that hired him. But it is the great divide in theology the evangelicals hold – the work of the ‘official’ church is something different and the leaders hold a holier vocation and the money that leaves your wallet now becomes God’s money – as if the money remaining in my wallet isn’t God’s money.

    God does not need this kind of protection.

  87. Steve Wright says:

    MLD, nobody is arguing in a theological vacuum here. If you wish to it will have to be another day. The context is this hiring of this man at this time.

    Well played in making another bash on evangelicals though….My record on secular jobs as vocations is quite clear here and in multiple messages (some of which you no doubt have listened to online).

    Frankly, I was wondering if the guy was even eligible for communion by the standards of that denomination, and to read the open letter it seems they are saying the same thing..or at least asking the question.

    Because, while yes, the Bible gives standards for elders as opposed to “the director of ministry development” – more importantly the Bible gives standards for CHRISTIANS and both your denomination, his, and many others deny communion to people on a regular basis.

    This is not about protecting God. It’s about protecting God’s people.

  88. Josh the Baptist says:

    So you got a guy who is dumped from the gospel coalition for theological reasons. No big deal.

    A little later, the same guy cheats on his wife.
    His “apology” makes sure to claim that she cheated first.
    Says he’s going away to heal his family.
    Stays online constantly and files for divorce instead.
    Basically live-blogs the whole thing.

    MLD says you owe this guy a job at your church.

    I think we can do better.

  89. Josh the Baptist says:

    AND!!!

    I think it would be much better for HIM to actually have to work, and stop trying to be a celebrity.

  90. Steve Wright says:

    So the punishment is starvation for him and the family?
    ——————————————–
    And as long as we are taking words in these posts and blowing them out of proportion…do you really believe this man is going to starve if this church (or some other) does not hire him right away? What YOU said above, but in a desire to discuss this, there is no point (on my end) in grabbing those tidbits for wild conclusions.

    You have shared here the fact, though not the details, that your own pastor was suspended for awhile by your church and then restored to full pastoral activity within a relatively short time. Since you are a major leader in your church, maybe the criticism from us is hitting close to home?

  91. As I said, I was not making a defense for TT – but you must admit that you do divide ministry between churchy and secular. It is OK for the adulterous janitor to work for me but not for you. And you did actually divide the money.

  92. Josh the Baptist says:

    So TT doesn’t seem to concerned about his family, but we should be?

    He seems like a smart, capable guy. He should be able to find a job.

  93. Josh the Baptist says:

    I do think there is a difference in an adulterer being a pastor, and an adulterer being a banker. I think both are scum, but feel the pastor has a greater moral obligation.

    So I may be guilty of what MLD is claiming.

  94. I don’t know that being suspended from your job for 7 months is a short period of time. And yes I have personally been through it – and I have been on both side. We had a ‘split’ of sorts over his return as some people didn’t want him restored for the sole purpose that they were mad at him.

  95. “So TT doesnโ€™t seem to concerned about his family, but we should be?”

    Can you specifically show me where TT is not today concerned for his family?

  96. Josh the Baptist says:

    He screwed a woman who is not his wife.

  97. Josh the Baptist says:

    Part 2 – the janitor question –

    If I were hiring a janitor for my secular office, and one applicant looked good but then I google him and find that he was just involved in a huge scandal, I would hire someone else.

    So, still, it goes both ways.

  98. Josh the Baptist says:

    Welcome to the party, Papias ๐Ÿ™‚

  99. Josh – so you wouldn’t hire a divorced janitor?

    Well, I will step away from this one as again the theology difference is too large to bridge.Churchy ministry vs secular ministry – God’s money vs ‘non’ God’s money.

  100. Papias says:

    Better late than never! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    How would you like to be going to this church and have this announced? I would be like, “Well family…. we gotta find another church to attend…”

  101. Josh the Baptist says:

    “Josh โ€“ so you wouldnโ€™t hire a divorced janitor?”

    If you think that is what I said, yeah, step away.

    And learn to read. ๐Ÿ™‚

  102. Josh the Baptist says:

    Papias – yeah, I’d hide my wife.

  103. Papias says:

    I would hire a divorced janitor to be a janitor.

    I would not hire a divorced pastor to be a pastor.

    Different standards are needed for a pastor than a janitor – Go read Timothy and Titus.

  104. Josh the Baptist says:

    If I had two good janitorial candidates, and I googled them, and one of the two was making a jerk of himself and embarrassing his family, etc….I’d hire the other guy.

    There is no theological problem. There may be a common sense problem.

  105. Neo says:

    I commented without info that he was literally hired back on a staff. I didn’t know that. My advice is to find a job in the secular world. No doubt about that.

  106. Xenia says:

    I think if some ordinary Joe cheated on his wife and lost his job because of it and was truly repentant, it would be charitable for a church to give him a non-ministry job that didn’t involve a glamour photo on the church’s website and comments about how he likes to exercise and surf. (Sounds like he’s already trolling for a new honey.)

    But TT is a very famous man in the Protestant world and his downfall was a national scandal in that world, causing harm to his family and distress to many. He is too famous, too scandalous to be hired by a church in such a public, congratulatory manner.

    That new position of his… what will it involve? Leadership meetings, making decisions, dreaming up ideas…. Stuff to continue the feeding of his ego. He’s still the cool guy with a title. How many people from his old church, who were enamored by him, will begin attending his new church to show him support.

    Seriously, MLD, I do not think his family is in danger of starvation. Maybe a little down scaling would be beneficial to his soul, though. Him and his ex-wife.

    And he seriously needs to delete that Twitter account. Good grief.

  107. Steve Wright says:

    MLD, didn’t Paul make a distinction between secular work and living off the offerings of other believers. I think I read that somewhere.

    As to dividing the money..maybe you missed it but when I was speaking about the insurance example it was back in the day when that office was filled with unbelievers. We were honest guys doing business, but there was hardly any thought that our money belonged to God….but hey, maybe that thought does not exist at Willow Creek either, or at your Lutheran church.

    Quit being disingenous and talking about hiring someone “divorced” as if this is not a current, ongoing saga. And if you don’t think the business world looks at as much character info as they can (legally) do before hiring someone, maybe you should sit in on some of the seminars I still attend each year for my insurance credentials.

  108. Michael says:

    Xenia is gold, as usual.

    I just found out that one of Calvary Chapels most notorious womanizers from the past has been hired on at the Bible college.

    It never ends.
    He’s such a good teacher…

  109. Steve Wright says:

    I pastor a Calvary Chapel and there are people there who have never heard of Chuck Smith or Greg Laurie. I think we are naive in assuming everyone at Willow Creek knows TT AND more importantly knows about his divorce and defrocking.

    As a pastor, the second I saw the guy talking to the women at the church I would blow a gasket…of course he wouldn’t be at our church anyway because I wouldn’t have hired him

  110. Steve Wright says:

    Name the name…

  111. Michael says:

    Steve,

    It’s a character flaw, but I just don’t take orders well.
    When I get done doing all I have to do this morning, I may write up a whole article.
    I’ll do that on my time, my way, on my damn blog.
    On the other hand…I might not.
    Because I just don’t take orders well.

  112. Xenia says:

    Michael, until you do “name the name” you will leave everyone wondering which of the Bible college’s new hires is a notorious womanizer.

    Better not to post the tease at all than to leave it hanging like that.

  113. Steve Wright says:

    Xenia is gold once more…and my name is associated with the Bible College given I taught there last year…along with a whole lot of other very good men (many of whom are listed on the website)

  114. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – I think people are in danger here as they judge the motives of the hiring church. I do not understand why the leadership of that church would be anxious to or get accused of trying to get TT in their pulpit.

    If you were just passing the churches website online, would you ever think to make comment about the bookkeeper’s glamour shot and the fact that she likes to do what she does? This is really extraordinary the way we expand and contract what we call “the ministry”

    I am still looking for the “banned from anykind of ministry or church work” verse in the Bible.

  115. Michael says:

    It’s the campus at Costa Mesa…where the legendary Danny Bond will be an instructor.

    Danny Bond who left CC Pacific Hills in an incredible mess when he left his first wife, took his second wife to the Midwest and came home to Golden Springs with the church secretary of the place that was stupid enough to hire him back there.

    But…he’s a great teacher.

  116. Xenia says:

    MLD, you are right that I don’t know the motives of the hiring church.

  117. Michael says:

    I wonder if he’ll be teaching on family values and how the gays have destroyed traditional marriage…
    I wonder…

  118. Steve Wright says:

    Thank you, Michael. The Bible College is in my backyard and we have people send their own children there. I know a couple of the guys who are involved in hiring and oversight and I appreciate you making the clarification that this is something Costa Mesa is doing and not them

  119. Steve Wright says:

    MLD…you keep deflecting about the bookkeeper and ignore that the leaders of some various important and large church ministries, like the music department, the childrens ministry, are listed on that page…people I might add with the same title as TT (and not the bookkeeper)

    The question you might ask is why the bookkeeper is included on such a page rather than try to convince us he has been hired to sit behind a desk Monday-Friday during office hours out of the spotlight

  120. Papias says:

    Danny Bond is back????

    That name is going to open old wounds…..

    And he’s teaching: Book of Daniel (3 Credits) / Danny Bond / 7pm-10pm

    http://www.ccgsbiblecollege.com/academic-information/class-list/

  121. Michael says:

    Papias,

    He’s been back for quite a while…I just had bigger fish to fry and didn’t need the extra grief.

    My sources say he’ll be at the Costa Mesa campus in the Logos building.

  122. Michael says:

    I don’t know who’s doing it. As I read it, CCCM is an extension of CCBC. Unless the bible colleges are autonomous too, that’s still a problem.

  123. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve,
    “than try to convince us he has been hired to sit behind a desk Monday-Friday during office hours out of the spotlight”

    I have seen no evidence to the contrary. This is why I bring up your motives.What do you see that tell you that he is not satisfied just sitting in his basement office working on programs.?

  124. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – how about his new title alone? How about that this is most likely a newly created position just to hire the guy, give him a title and get his face online. DId they have a longstanding director of ministry development retire and they have been frantic trying to find a replacement. We both know that is highly unlikely. How does one “develop ministry” for a church and not get involved with the pastors, elders, leaders, board etc.

    Xenia I think summarized in her #112 very well what no doubt his new job responsibilities would be. Falling back to the old saw about us “judging” is deliberately obtuse.

    But I go back to what I have said from the beginning..a guy in this sin, this fresh, this unrepentant is a “snot” (your words earlier) and I would not hire him in any capacity, nor to file my insurance papers either…

  125. Steve Wright says:

    A final note before I go MLD. You said above that seven months suspension for a senior pastor to then return to his normal pastoral duties is not a short period of time.

    Depending on the reasons for the suspension (again, which have not been discussed here) of course it can be a very short period of time. What would have been the reaction if Bob Coy in 7 months was back in full authority over the church and satellites of CCFTL?

    Frankly, I am trying to think of a pastoral sin that would be serious enough to warrant a suspension but trivial enough to get such a slap on the wrist. Even Sproul Jr. got a year and if true he just looked at a bad website for 5 minutes.

    I do know that if there was such a sin, there would HAVE to be some serious followup even after the 7-month suspension ended and he went back to full pastoral responsibility. I trust as one of the chief leaders of your church you have been largely responsible for that oversight…

    Out for awhile..

  126. ( |o )====::: says:

    Hi Michael,
    I love your character flaws (just like mine amuse you)! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Hey, I love the fact that God chooses to use each of us in His own way to enrich each other while He lavishes us with empowerment & His presence.

    I spent 45 minutes last night worshiping with people in recovery, the most genuine and broken folks who let God cling to them as they keep showing up. Our all of our voices, my guitar with my bandmates, all of us so happy to be there together. No wonder the vision of heaven in the sacred texts are replete with such unity.

    That’s what this blog is to those who check in, share their hearts & journey together. Spirited, shared, sometimes debating, always committed to all participants.

    …just felt that a little encouragement toward you and the community could help this day along.

    Love ya, bud!

  127. Papias says:

    Michael, I had no idea he was back in SoCal.

    He may be teaching at CCCM via the Distance Learning:

    Distance-Online Classes:

    Book of Daniel (3 Credits) / Danny Bond
    Book of Hebrews (3 Credits) / Danny Bond”

    Hey look – he’s teaching through Hebrews as well!!!!

    I wonder if he still quotes Puritan writers?

  128. Josh the Baptist says:

    I am judging.

    The guy cheated on his wife.

    He needs to go away.

  129. Em says:

    am i correct that the Law is the only profession that goes after its own – will disbar a bad apple?
    speaking of apples, we have teachers (making better wages than most of the folk from whose resources their pay comes), now striking for better compensation, holding up the start of classes – AND drawing a paycheck while they do so – jobs security for life…

    but, come to think of it, they are let go – a lot of them these days – for sexual “misconduct” with students… they can’t get reinstated, why can pastors? consenting adults is different? baloney

    for sure, self respect has a new definition today – the human race has a rapidly growing devolution problem

  130. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve,
    “Frankly, I am trying to think of a pastoral sin that would be serious enough to warrant a suspension but trivial enough to get such a slap on the wrist.”

    Well as I said, I don’t know that 7 months is trivial or a slap on the wrist, but watch your email. Since you know who my pastor is, I will tell you the story and you can come back here and tell everyone if we handled it correctly.

    I don’t mean give the details but to clear the air, you could say, yes it is right there in the pastoral sins and yes his discipline was adequate or no it was not.

  131. Michael says:

    What TT should have done is what he loves to do.
    Run a website and social media where his fans can interact with him and his teachings.
    He could have sat under the discipline of the presbytery and done his thing without making a sham of the church.

  132. Michael says:

    G….thank you.
    I need all the encouragement I can get!

  133. Nonnie says:

    I’ve written and deleted so many times. I’m so disgusted over all of this.

    Shame on those churches that prop up the adulterers, while women and children are left in the rubble.

    Shame on the people that support those churches/ministries/radio stations.

  134. Papias says:

    Michael, That’s a nice summation of what’s wrong with TT getting another ministry gig.

    And to some, that’s all it is… another job…. ๐Ÿ™

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