Linkathon!

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64 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    Kim Davis has been released.

  2. Josh the Baptist says:

    I know Throckmorton opposes everything Barton…but I’m noticing the only “thoughtful” articles he links are to those against Kim Davis.

    Our world is getting weirder by the day.

    God bless Kim Davis. I hope her stand can make a difference.

  3. Michael says:

    I oppose everything Barton too…and WT was exposing him long before Kim Davis.

  4. Josh the Baptist says:

    I care absolutely ZERO about Barton, but just because he is for a cause doesn’t mean we should be against it.

    Kim Davis did the right thing. Two politicians who spoke up for her? Huckabee and Cruz. Makes them completely unelectable in today’s climate, but gain a ton of respect from me.

  5. OCDan says:

    Concur with the above comments about Barton. The guy is a hack when it comes to historical accuracy. As I have said a million times, America is not a Christian nation. I will agree that many of the Founders were deists, but this Judeo-Christian foundation is just rewriting history for the sake of the church.

    As for MacArthur, he needs to go back and take another look at his view regarding taking the mark of the beast. He has done some fine work for the kingdom, but at other times, JMac surprises me. It must be because his eschatology clouds his interpretation of scripture at times.

  6. OCDan says:

    Michael,

    Would like to add that I have been following WW and the Doug Wilson story and it is a tragedy. That story shows just how much church higher-ups and their ilk will cover for each other.

    Then again if it weren’t for them this blog would be shorter.

    How sad our Lord must be when mere children are in danger, let alone in danger of being abused like this.

  7. j2theperson says:

    It’s not just the church that has failed sexual abuse victims but society at large as well–and not just sexual abuse victims but any kind of abuse victims in general. Just try being the child of an abused mother who is finally divorcing your abusive father. She might be able to get free from him, but if he has a little bit of money and is able to put on a good show for the judge the poor kid is not going to be able to severe ties with him and might end up being given completely into his custody. We mock and disrespect abuse victims and dismiss the emotions they suffer as a result of the things they have endured as irrational and unhealthy. As long as you have more money than your victim and can appear to be vaguely put together and “normal” you can get away with a lot and unless your victim is able to pull themselves together and act exactly the way the justice system demands that they act there will be little chance that they will see their abuser held to account.

  8. Michael says:

    OCDan,

    I hope that I would find something to write about in the lack. ๐Ÿ™‚
    What confounds me is that you will not see any mainstream media, Christian or otherwise, pick up these stories.
    While all the bloggers I cite work very, very hard on these stories, we just don’t have the resources to do the investigation or promote the stories to a wider audience.

  9. Steve Wright says:

    I think there is no doubt that two distinct veins are found in American history since its founding. The First Great Awakening and The Enlightenment.

    What happens though is today people exalt one side for its influence and ignore or greatly diminish the other…depending on one’s bias.

    Both influences should be acknowledged equally, and sought to be understood.

  10. j2theperson says:

    Just read the WW story on Doug Wilson and the pedophile. It just reinforces how the church and society at large don’t care about abuse victims. That poor baby.

  11. Brandon says:

    The article about refugees coming to Christ is absolutely correct. I spent some time a year ago in the ME working with Syrians and the number one topic that they brought up was Jesus. Repeatedly. Sat with one large family (8-10 adults in the room) with the patriarch asking us questions about Jesus for hours. Welcoming the refugee is a huge opportunity to see God’s kingdom expand. If only the church opens to this. (I wrote a bit about it on my blog here (http://mbjones.net/home/2015/9/5/when-opportunity-comes-knocking)

  12. Brandon says:

    ps. feel free to delete my comment if we aren’t allowed to post links to our junk. I won’t be offended ๐Ÿ™‚

  13. Michael says:

    Brandon,

    I’m very happy you gave us that link.

    Part of what I perceive as my calling is to bring to peoples attention other writers…

  14. Michael says:

    Brandon…that was really good…thank you.

  15. Em says:

    Pastor Steve,
    one thing became very clear to me as i researched the history of my maternal grandparents (all the way back to Dutch colonists in New York)… this country WAS founded on Christian principles… were the leaders committed to Christ? only God knows who was, some obviously weren’t… but those settlers, the ones who dug in and developed this nation, on whose backs the country was built, were church goers of one Christian stripe or another… “They came with Bibles, plows and muskets; the Word of God was their anchor. But their master, what drove them on, was the dream.”

    yes, we hear stories of how mistreated and betrayed the Indian nations were, most of which is true, but not all black and white as those tribes were historically at war with each other for territory long before the ships deposited white men into the struggles…
    the white man’s view was that the land and the Indians needed taming and we were prepared to fight to do so – no matter the cost … and, IMV, only God knows if it was a just endeavor… how would the world look today if we’d stayed on the other side of the ocean? how would North America look? interesting ponder

  16. Em says:

    pray for the refugees’ souls… i had a hard time praying for that part of the world until i began to hear rumors of what Brandon just said above… praise God!
    God does move in the chaos and i, in my puny faith, find that amazing – to my shame

  17. Canadian Steve says:

    Everyone should go read Doug Wilson’s replies at dougwils.com, his blog. He is not hiding, and his explanations sound eminently reasonable as someone who tries to balance Christian grace & forgiveness with consequences of sin.

    Granted, he generally shoots himself in the foot by sounding like a sarcastic know-it-all, and rarely if ever does the grace of Christ apply to him, since he has an answer for everything he’s ever accused of.

    So, while I’m not an avid Doug Wilson supporter (hey, I was told to repent by one of my elders almost 20 years ago when I typed in a forum that I thought Doug Wilson was a little too much of a legend in his own mind), I think his explanations are a lot more cogent than we usually get in situations like this, and they make me think the firestorm is perhaps not warranted quite yet…

  18. Steve Wright says:

    Em,

    One can read the original STATE constitutions of the original colonies to find out how important Christianity was to the early days of this country, especially in politics.

    When people only look to the federal Constitution they err greatly. I believe because today few can really relate to just how important state rights were to the founders.

  19. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I agree with Steve W. – If you want to know what the Federal Constitution was REALLY saying – look to the states. At the time of the ratifying of the Constitution, 12 of the 13 states had state churches.The constitution was not at all concerned about ending church / state relationships

    So, the constitution could not mean what people want to twist it to say today.

  20. Steve Wright says:

    The very first articles to the Massachusetts constitution (after the preamble) – and they weren’t talking about Allah (as the last paragraph demonstrates)

    Part the First. A Declaration of the Rights of the Inhabitants of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

    Art. I.–All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    II.–It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great creator and preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship.

    III.–As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of GOD, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this Commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of GOD, and for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.

    And the people of this Commonwealth have also a right to, and do, invest their legislature with authority to enjoin upon all the subjects an attendance upon the instructions of the public teachers aforesaid, at stated times and seasons, if there be any on whose instructions they can conscientiously and conveniently attend.

    Provided notwithstanding, that the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic, or religious societies, shall, at all times, have the exclusive right of electing their public teachers, and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance.

    And all monies paid by the subject to the support of public worship, and of the public teachers aforesaid, shall, if he require it, be uniformly applied to the support of the public teacher or teachers of his own religious sect or denomination, provided there be any on whose instructions he attends: otherwise it may be paid towards the support of the teacher or teachers of the parish or precinct in which the said monies are raised.

    And every denomination of christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the Commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: And no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.

  21. Steve Wright says:

    I won’t do this all day…but this little nugget was in the North Carolina state constitution

    XXXII. That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State, shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.

  22. Nonnie says:

    The link about rebuking women is shocking to me! If that man had his way,
    Christian women would be in burqas and I’m guessing he’d take away our computers, as well. I’m disgusted.

  23. rob says:

    The theology for women is that oppressed women are not to blame their oppressors. They are to submit more fully, more obediently, more humbly. They are not to complain. They are to submit, submit, submit.

    They are not to chafe against the abuse. Ultimately, the abuse is their fault. If only they would submit, eventually the men would no longer feel the need the need to oppress.

    Yeah, right.

    And, even if the men remain oppressors, it is better that the women suffer in obedience, than seek any freedom. Rather than for women to consider rebellion – be that they die.

    Amen.

  24. Brandon says:

    Thanks for the feedback ๐Ÿ™‚ Really am generally encouraged by the discussions here.

  25. Josh the Baptist says:

    The Christian life is a life of total submission.

  26. Jim says:

    I just need to say that reasonable complimentairians stand against the very small and odd patriarchy sect. I’ve both rubbed and bumped shoulders with this crowd, and they didn’t enjoy the experience.

  27. Miss ODM says:

    Nonnie – I’m with you on #25 — Those women weren’t put in authority over any men. They have a right to their opinions and their public expression of them. If men won’t expose evil in our midst, we better obey God rather than man and do so ourselves as the Holy Spirit leads.

  28. Josh the Baptist says:

    Submission is terrifying. We are afraid that if we submit, we’ll be ran over. We won’t get our’s. We won’t be taken care of.

  29. Xenia says:

    That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion <<<<

    Well shucks.

  30. Josh the Baptist says:

    Yeah, Xenia, you could not hold office in NC. ๐Ÿ™‚

  31. EricL says:

    I’ve read Doug Wilson’s defense that Canadian Steve (@20) and Josh (@26) mention and I find his attempt rather lacking. One glaring gap is his failure to talk about the VICTIMS of this abuser, both the first time and now this alleged second time. These were kids in Wilson’s church.

    When you welcome the Abuser to your church with a warm hug, you automatically are shoving all the Victims out the back door. Would you want to sit in church in sight of the person who horribly abused you as a kid?

    Also, his 7th point is laughable. His claim is that he couldn’t have prevented Abuser Steven from marrying this young lady in his church, that there was nothing unlawful about them marrying. However, Wilson officiated the ceremony. So, yes, he did approve of this marriage. What a weasel! (Here’s a link to a photo from their wedding, with Wilson right in the middle)
    http://sitler.moscowid.net/wp-content/themes/inferno/images/thumbs/wedding.png

    And yet people still defend Doug Wilson because they like his theology. Again, read his defense and take special note of how little he mentions the victims of this monster. These aren’t just unproven accusations. The abuser was found guilty once already, and his preferred victims are little kids and now (allegedly) babies.

    It’s enough to make me weep. Seriously. And I cannot imagine how this pastor’s attitude must hurt those who have been victims.

  32. Josh the Baptist says:

    Hmmm, Wilson said he approved of the marriage, so no beef there.

    He advised the very first accusers to go to the authorities. That is advocating for the victim.

    Should we make leper colonies for sex-offenders now?

    (PS – I don’t like Douglas Wilson’s theology. I do hate seeing the internet mob go after another guy who seems to have handled it better than most would.)

  33. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I liked the article “Luther, Christian freedom, and good worksโ€ฆ”

    Donavan Reily says it better than me, but it is the reason I always get misunderstood about ‘doing’ good works. We don’t do good works – good works are done through us.

  34. Miss ODM says:

    “Should we make leper colonies for sex-offenders now?”

    We already have them — they’re called prisons.

  35. Josh the Baptist says:

    So, sex-offense = life in prison? Because this guy did time, and was on parole. Was only in church with a supervisor…only other thing I can think of is some sort of concentration camp.

  36. Em says:

    #25 – totally agree with Nonnie
    that article was written by a scary man

    but, being from another era when gender roles were better understood and better played, i see the wisdom in denying women leadership roles within the Christian community assuming that they are usurping authority over men who are qualified and available – HOWEVER, did that preclude having opinions and speaking out when there was a wrong that needed righting? preclude defending the Faith? not in my world, it didn’t…

    for the record – it seems to me that today’s woman who is capable and trained to fill a role in the economy *should* have equality with the male wherever they find themselves – today’s world IS a different one than the historic one fading away during my lifetime … IMNSHO

  37. Em says:

    we need a leper colony, a devil’s island for the repeat sex offenders

  38. EricL says:

    My opinion is that a person who has sexually abused children should not be attending church during regular services when children are all over the place, playing and running about. That must be like taking an alcoholic to the bar every week. Too much temptation, I would think.

    Couldn’t such a person become active in church in an environment that will be safe for both him and the kids of the church? Maybe attend a men’s group, adult Bible studies, or even Senior Adult classes. Just my thoughts.

  39. Josh the Baptist says:

    If the person was in church with a court ordered chaperon (Wilson says he was), that wouldn’t be enough? I mean, that satisfies the law. What do you think Wilson is trying to do by having the guy in his church? It’s certainly not gaining him any popularity.

    I just think you guys are going after the wrong target this time.

    And I think you should avoid internet mobs at all costs. They ALL see themselves as nights in shining armor, but they can destroy a life in the stroke of key. And no one even cares if it was true or not.

  40. David H says:

    David Barton is a fraud and charlatan. He can have his opinion.

    He gives historians a bad name. I’m a university trained historian. I’ve taught a CSUF, and the University of Redlands. So, at least I have the training to back up what I might say or write. I now teach High School history. My goal as a scholar is to be as objective as possible, and face my own biases head on in research, and teaching.

    Yes, I don’t like Barton.

  41. j2theperson says:

    ***Also, his 7th point is laughable. His claim is that he couldnโ€™t have prevented Abuser Steven from marrying this young lady in his church, that there was nothing unlawful about them marrying. However, Wilson officiated the ceremony. So, yes, he did approve of this marriage. What a weasel! ***

    I assume Doug Wilson would never officiate a gay marriage. But, quite frankly, officiating the marriage of a pedophile with a woman *and actively encouraging them to have children* is magnitudes worse than gay marriage could possibly be–they’re basically not even on the same scales. Yes, the majority of the blame in this situation should rest on the pedophile himself and then on the woman and her parents for going along with this ridiculous perversion and enabling him to molest his child, but Doug Wilson was, at best, hopelessly naive to officiate that wedding and encourage them to have children and by doing so has, as far as I am concerned, lost any sort of moral authority to object to any sort of marriage or coupling that anyone might express a desire for. He’s lacks wisdom. He lacks common sense. He lacks concern for the vulnerable. He lacks a basic sense of what is dignified and proper and right. He obviously is either completely oblivious to or simply has no respect for what makes up a good, healthy, christian marriage. A man like that should not be a pastor.

  42. catherine says:

    what j2theperson said… as the victim of child abuse, I cannot keep silent.A man like that should not be a pastor. Period.

  43. damon says:

    To the DW story, it seems as though everyone is of the opinion that pedophiles are beyond being restored and/or healed. Am I reading you all rightly? If so, which sins are therefore beyond the grace of God? Grace, and restoration are “dangerous” by nature, how do we restore anyone w/o risking repeat pain?

    FWIW, I am not in anyway saying this man (the pedophile) should not be punished to the full extent of the law. Nor am I saying that in retrospect, DW’s actions were wise. I also am not hard to the horrific trauma that was inflicted on the child. I am however asking, how should he (DW) have proceeded w/o knowledge of the future and with a belief in the restorative power of God?

  44. j2theperson says:

    I’m not opposed to the basic idea of a pedophile attending church. But I think Doug Wilson erred abominably when he not only officiated a marriage between a pedophile and a woman but encouraged them to have children. That’s like telling an alcoholic to get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a car.

    Realistically, a person sexually attracted to children is always going to be sexually attracted to children and while marriage may not be out of the question their pastor should not be encouraging them to have children. And that goes a million times for a person who has *actually acted on their pedophilic urges*. Children should not under any circumstances be included in the restoration/healing process of a pedophile. And a pedophile who doesn’t recognize that reality is not genuinely seeking healing or restoration.

  45. damon – are you saying the guy is still a pedophile because God has not given him grace = taken it away from him?

  46. Nonnie says:

    MLD, whilst on parole, the man sexually abused his own baby. He may have the grace of God, but he needs to have it in a prison cell.

  47. Nonnie, you may have misunderstood. In some circumstances, I would be for putting the guy in the graveyard.

    But it sounded like damon was suggesting we need to be patient as one day God will take this away from him.

  48. Josh the Baptist says:

    Hey gang.

    I’d like to apologize for my argumentative nature recently, including yesterday, when I dug in on the wrong side of an awful situation. A friend has made more information available to me about the Doug Wilson story, and I can no longer vouch for the guy.

    All I can say is that I was ignorant and shouldn’t have commented about things I don’t know.

    Please forgive me.

  49. Nonnie says:

    God bless the Baptist man!

  50. Kevin H says:

    Josh, you get to keep that Hall of Fame trophy. ๐Ÿ™‚

  51. Nonnie says:

    Damon said: ” I am however asking, how should he (DW) have proceeded w/o knowledge of the future and with a belief in the restorative power of God?”

    Wilson should not have advocated for the pedophile to get out of prison (he had a life sentence) and should have left him prison. He could minister in prison the rest of his life. Just like Tex Watson has is doing.

  52. Josh the Baptist says:

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/08/technology/ashley-madison-suicide/

    Wow.

    New Orleans Baptist Seminary professor killed himself over the Ashley Madison scandal.

  53. Em says:

    #47 – yes, i see your point, i think, even a murder can repent and be forgiven, and, yes, that doesn’t release him from the punishment due …
    but i’m not so sure that these sexual offenders aren’t candidates for an asylum of some kind … we used to confine folk who were dangerous to themselves or others… not always nice places, i hear, but better than the pretty sure risk of their harming innocents – if that doesn’t define ‘crazy,’ i don’t know what does

  54. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I’m writing about that tomorrow…

  55. Babylon's Dread says:

    She eats and wipes her mouth and says I have done no wrong…

  56. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    in other news, team Driscoll’s bringing back blasts from the pasts but scrubbing away references to the only church he was ever a member or a pastor at here and there in the sermons

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/09/mark-driscoll-announces-that-rebels.html

  57. brian says:

    Some of the comments concerning this man’s suicide

    “The separation of the Wheat from the Tares…bye bye idiot.”

    “What a scumbag. At least he did something right in the end.”

    “Adultery and suicide, what Hypocrisy!”

    I could not post some of the other comments due to the language, this is just one site. I always have found suicide very tragic, having lost at least ten friends to suicide I e confirmed via cause of death though there were many more that were ruled accidents. I remember some folks saying the awfullest things about those that had died.

  58. Steve Wright says:

    I found this article on what seems like quite a trend to be interesting given the discussion of last week -especially with MLD’s and others’ insistence on the distinction between pastor and director.

    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/director-pastor-whatever

  59. damon says:

    Sorry, life got in the way. And, BTW, I am not trying to necessarily defend DW’s actions. Given the nature of those to whom I minister on a daily basis, these are real questions for me that I am continuing to work through and I appreciate the thoughts of others.

    MLD–I call him a pedophile because it sounds like he is still practicing such. Prior to this new development, and with a desire to want to view his repentance as legitimate, I am not sure that I would have labeled him in the same way. I *think* I understand how I may have given the wrong impression that we should continue to be patient with him—that was not the way that I was going, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

    Noonie- you may have more information than I do, but I didn’t see how his (DW) letter advocated for him to get out, nor how that letter changed the mind of the judge. I really don’ think things work that way in the legal world, at least not in the world of SOs where I am from. Much more likely, is that he (the pedophile) received some form of reduced sentence for “good time” and/or sentence reconsideration….. in the name of cost savings. Such happens all the time here.

    Em–I agree with what you are saying if I am understanding you. However, my only question is, to what degree do we see God’s grace able to transform a man (woman)? If we believe he can take drug addiction away, can he not also take this away? Again, my mind is not made up on the issue, but I am certainly not as lenient (in regards to punishment of SOs) as I may be sounding, I am just wondering if DW did what he did because he truly believed the man was “healed.”

    If DW was indeed operating under such an understanding, how else should he have acted?

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