You may also like...

117 Responses

  1. Rick Ritchie says:

    I hope everyone clicks on your “a free classic on the early church” link, at least to look. William Ramsay is great. He got to do Archaeology at a great time, before so much recent development and political strife. He is richly insightful on the ancient world.

    Thanks for sharing!

  2. Michael says:


    I hope so too…it wasn’t free when I bought it. 🙂

  3. Steve Wright says:

    A great line from the comments on the social media and pastors article.

    “A lot of social media activity is incidental and unintentional. Ministry should always be intentional.”

    I’ve found this to be quite true in my life for years and so about two weeks ago I changed that focus to now use social media (well, facebook) in an intentional manner and have already seen a tremendous difference…

  4. Em says:

    every time it is Linkathon day, i’m reminded that i really need to make an appointment to get new glasses 🙂 i’m grateful to Rick for the heads-up … sent the PDF to a couple people who will appreciate it

  5. OCDan says:

    Can Mars Hill even be considered a church? What do those people in that building believe exactly?

    Kent Dobson’s comments make me wonder just what he thinks about God, if anything. And to think this guy was the teaching pastor.


  6. Miss ODM says:

    Peter Lillback is a hypocrite and a coward just like me — and all of you law-abiding citizens. To see how I draw my conclusion -check out my reasonable response to the Planned Parenthood shooting —

  7. Jean says:

    The Wikipedia bio on William M. Ramsay is quite impressive. I downloaded the The Church in the Roman Empire Before AD 170 and am adding it to the reading list. Thanks!

  8. Soldier of Jah says:

    Throughout Church history the term “Heretic” was thrown around very loosely costing millions of lives due to one persons definition of the word. The Anabaptists, Waldenses, John Huss, Jerome, John Wycliffe, the Heruli, Ostrogoths, Vandals are those in Church history that were denied the freedom to worship God according to their conscience. What’s ironic is that the so called Pious persecutors of these heretics became heretics themselves once they picked up the sword in the name of Christ and killed those they deemed anathematized.

  9. Michael says:

    Miss ODM,

    Some are going to immediately write off your article.
    I would suggest that we need to wrestle with what you’ve wrote….

  10. Jean says:

    I read the article at #6 and whole heartedly condemn it.

  11. Michael says:


    I’m not advocating violence.
    The question remains…if we consider abortion murder, then why do we not take the steps we would to halt any other murder?
    I don’t believe it’s a simple as repudiating violence.

  12. Steve Wright says:

    The Catholics have nothing on us when it comes to dishing out the Christian guilt.

    Damned if you suggest voting for the only one of the two parties that is officially pro-life and has at least a decent number of its members who vote accordingly, and vet the judges that will change this law if it is to be changed..

    Damned if you don’t celebrate a madman who did not stop a single abortion but just added blood for blood.

    I don’t “write off” her article but it is in fact a ludicrous comparison if the Bible is your authority for life.

    Someone tell Paul he should have spent his time taking out the pedophiles throughout Roman society and ended his life here far more quickly. Last I heard, Hitler was defeated by the state, not some Christian army.

    No wonder some people think Christians are terrorists too….with that sort of affirmation.

    I guarantee you this, if any of your children worked at that clinic in the office to pay their bills and raise your grandchildren, even as much as you might try to get them to find another job, you sure as hell would not be celebrating their death as a pro-life triumph.

  13. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Murder is a legal term and abortion is not legally considered murder.

  14. Michael says:

    Let’s try this again.
    I’m not advocating for violence against abortion clinics.
    I would condemn that.

    The Hitler analogy fails.
    If he would have been assassinated (as some Christians attempted) millions of lives would have been saved.
    He was not stopped by a legislature, he was stopped by a war that took millions of lives.

    Christians consider abortion murder whether the law says so or not.
    Conservative Christians advocate the taking of life for other murders.
    If someone tried to murder a child or adult, the use of lethal force would not be a question.

    One more time, I’m not advocating for violence, but there is real cognitive dissonance here.

  15. Jean says:

    Yes, the Pharmacists, fertility clinics and doctors, women who take abortion inducing drugs, embryo banks. Then, the homosexuals. Why stop there? Adulterers. The church should enforce Christian morality by the sword. Just what Jesus and Paul had in mind.

  16. Jean says:

    The cognitive dissonance is caused when Christians don’t understand vocation, the 2 kingdoms and the relationship between Romans 12 and Romans 13.

  17. Michael says:


    I’ll try one more time.
    I’m not advocating violence, nor would I advocate violence against these clinics.
    I posted Lillibacks article in the first place.
    I’m simply noting that we would not hesitate to use deadly force to stop any other form of murder.

    Therefore, we either don’t believe that abortion is murder or we have a real cognitive dissonance here.

  18. Miss ODM says:

    Michael – the opposing arguments are the same as one might hear from a conscientious objector who refuses to serve in the military because he cannot kill – even if it is the enemy. Yet the same people would shed their own blood to save the life of those they love. Those unborn children — someone else’s problem.

  19. Jean says:

    Michael, I’m not accusing you. But your premise is incorrect. If a Christian thought the Vietnam war was murder, would he be justified killing all soldiers, the President, members of Congress authorizing that war? What about doctors and politicians supporting assisted suicide? Isn’t the State charged with wielding the sword? Where is that vocation given to the individual Christian?

  20. Miss ODM says:

    Be honest — STOP — cease and desist – saying that unborn children are people too — if you are not going to treat them as such – quit taking that position. If you insist on saying they are real babies, then you — as I point out, like me — are a coward and a hypocrite.

  21. Michael says:


    I’m not disagreeing with you in total.
    You and I are probably very close on this matter.

    I still believe there is a real cognitive dissonance here.
    If the state has abrogated it’s responsibility, should Christians take it up?

    If we believe that a person is being killed, how should we respond?

    It’s worth thinking about and I have no easy answers…

  22. Jean says:

    When the Canaanites were sacrificing their children to Molech, did God tell the Israelites to go murder the priests on account of that or save the children? Satan is the prince of this world. Christians battle satan in their vocations. And Ephesians tells us what kind of war that is.

  23. Miss ODM says:


  24. Jeanw says:

    “If we believe that a person is being killed, how should we respond?”

    If church leaders actually cared more about life than their petty doctrinal fights, they could easily muster millions of pro- life Christians to put the kibosh on abortion.

  25. Michael says:


    I would agree with you on the nature of the battle.
    If that’s the case why are prayer meetings so thinly attended?

    More cognitive dissonance in the camp…

  26. Miss ODM says:

    Just tissue — nothing to get excited about.

  27. Em says:

    Miss ODM’s point that anyone, irregardless of their religion, could react with violence to what has come to light about trafficking in baby parts by Planned P. is valid IMHO

    perhaps the best Christian push-back to the abortion clinic issue IS picketing… would we do better still to stand for chastity without making excuses or using gimmicks? – to be even more supportive and even celebrate the struggling families as true heros when they don’t make bad decisions out of desperation?
    …be sure of our convictions without labeling people as good or bad (smart and stupid? maybe 🙂 )

    BTW – abortions have always been available, clean and sanitary, despite some back alley horror stories – i once had a summer job where my boss took off for a week leaving me running the whole shebang … upon her return, she apologized saying that she’d had to take time off for an abortion as she’d just been promoted and didn’t want to lose the position simply because of a pregnancy… yes, she was married and the year was 1955

    so? … i’m not too impressed with the Planned P’s argument – isn’t it interesting how they’ve held up the back alley horrors as their justification and now gloss over their own back alley body parts business?

  28. Em says:

    Jean’s #16 should give us Christians our starting line, i think … there is the world and there is the Church we serve, the God we serve… what has He called us to do?

  29. Em says:

    do we want to muster thousands of Christians to reform the world, when we can’t muster them to serve the Kingdom? good question: do we save society or do we save souls?

  30. Michael says:


    In theory, saving souls preserves the society.
    The salt and light thing…

  31. Em says:

    Does God ever coerce? while skimming Roger Olson’s article doesn’t give me much of a foothold, i do not understand how anyone can doubt that God is in control of everything ultimately, He set this thing in motion with omniscience (i was going to say “complete” omniscience, but that’s redundant) – bringing every single one of His attributes into complete harmony – He never compromises – knowing exactly how things would play out (drives Satan crazy, no doubt) – isn’t it a bit presumptuous of us to declare how He now involves Himself in the process?
    i think He does coerce, BTW 🙂 … on rare occasions

    now i’m done – God keep

  32. Miss ODM says:

    Ich bin ein Feigling und ein Heuchler

  33. Em says:

    #31 – history screams that you are correct – we are deaf and blind, perhaps?

    now i’m done 🙂

  34. Em says:

    you are a coward and a Heuchler? what’s a Heuchler?

  35. Miss ODM says:

    Check babelfish

  36. Josh the Baptist says:

    Guys, you are headed down an evil path.

  37. Nonnie says:

    I’m with Steve in his number 12

  38. Josh the Baptist says:

    I didn’t read Steve’s #12 – Saw the subject and did not want to be involved.

    But after looking back, yes, Steve said it well.

  39. Miss ODM says:

    More cowards and hypocrites like myself who will not lift a hand to defend helpless children from the ovens.

  40. Josh the Baptist says:

    Incorrect. I am active in my community, saving as many babies as possible. I will never attempt to use the devil’s weapons in this battle. God is stronger than that.

    Please repent from this stupid and evil mindset.

  41. Steve Wright says:

    Vegetarians are constantly playing the hypocrite card that if you would not eat your pet dog or cat you should not eat a cow, chicken or fish. It is a false comparison just as comparing life in the womb for a couple months with Holocaust victims.

    Abortion is the shedding of innocent blood, the taking of human life and is a national sin and great evil. Apparently though, Miss ODM has not learned the lesson of Jesus about judging others when she has no knowledge what they do or don’t do on this subject – or have for many years. If she is feeling guilt about her apathy then maybe she should seek the Lord about her responsibility and get off the internet, and get herself into a local church and work with them on saving some babies. But her personal guilt does not transpose to the entire pro-life Christian movement or the posters here who refuse to applaud a madman or follow her twisted, evil unBiblical argument

    I preach against abortion a lot, more than just about any pastor I ever have listened to regularly. I would be shocked if it has not driven away more than a few congregants over the years, especially in good old Democrat blue-state California. Our church and its members are actively working towards a growing pro-life ministry in this area, providing pregnant girls with ultrasounds.

    However, I also read my Bible and recognize that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. I recognize that Christianity is not to be lived by the sword.

    I also recognize the central teaching throughout that earthly life is far less significant than eternal life for the soul.

    If the argument about gunning down people who work at a facility that provides abortions were valid a far more valid argument would be gunning down every Mormon or JW worship hall, and for that matter every Sikh, Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, or Hindu hall as well. Those places are sending people to eternal hell.

    (Of course, what is scary is that Miss ODM as we all know would include a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ as well in the above list because of where they have spoken or with whom they have shared a platform)

    Abortion is a great evil for reasons beyond the shedding of blood but for the damage done to the woman who has the abortion, the man who ejaculates and abandons his responsibility with the blessing of America and a variety of other cultural reasons. I believe that baby is with Jesus…immediately. I am sorry for anyone who thinks otherwise because of what it must mean about their view of God’s nature if they think the baby in the womb is sent by God to hell at the judgement.

    Now, if the followup is going to continue to be Nazi references, then I also suggest looking up Godwin’s Law first….

  42. Nonnie says:

    Well said, Steve.

  43. Josh the Baptist says:

    Yep. Nailed it.

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “immediately. I am sorry for anyone who thinks otherwise because of what it must mean about their view of God’s nature if they think the baby in the womb is sent by God to hell at the judgement.”

    Does anyone think this? Even the RCC made up limbo to avoid having to deal with this.

  45. Michael says:

    There has been a lot of debate about the issue over the centuries.
    The Reformed majority position used to be that elect infants went to heaven, non elect to hell.
    The Reformed majority position now is that all infants who die in infancy are elect.

    The position of the early church was that baptized babies went to heaven, non baptized babies did not, but were spared the punishments of hell.

  46. Jean says:

    Would it be acceptable to say that where God’s Word is silent, His will is hidden, and in those cases one trusts that He is a merciful God.

  47. Michael says:


    I would say that is more than acceptable.

  48. Michael says:

    One of the things that CC guys and some Baptists used to harp on was that Calvinists believed babies went to hell if they died in infancy.

    This, despite the fact that all infants being elect fits well with Calvinistic doctrines on predestination and election.

  49. Em says:

    perhaps i’m not reading Miss ODM correctly, but her article is food for thought… as a Christian when do we take up arms? not to promote Christ – not ever… but isn’t it easy to see why a human being could do so?
    but i will stick my neck out and say…
    For my part, i’m not sure when the soul enters the body to be frank – at conception or at birth? i don’t know, (yes i know the verses) but what i do know is that, since i don’t know, i can’t condone abortion whether the fetus is viable or not. Further, soul or not, it is living and responding to stimuli and that includes being torn apart pre-birth…
    There, then, is the question that most of us don’t want to consider. Is any form of birth control acceptable that occurs after conception? that includes most methods in use today… hmmm….
    #47 is my fall back position, too – when God is silent, it may just be that the sin is dependent on the heart, not the act

  50. Michael says:

    Major shooting situation in San Bernadino….

  51. Em says:

    all these shootings now – all the attempts at retribution and vindication – insanity and despair – this may not be THE perilous times, but our times are perilous, nevertheless – time to put on our armor and stand?

  52. Jim says:

    I think this conversation would be more helpful if we took the Colorado wacko out of it.

    Thinking that violence in the defense of the innocent is evil and referencing the weapons of our warfare is silly and out of context. If some wacko cult was in my neighborhood chopping up live babies, I’d shed no tears if someone bombed the place at midnight.

    What man would stand aside and pray while a psycho drowned a child in a pool? The compulsion to intervene and save the child comes from God.

  53. Michael says:


    Well said.

  54. Michael says:


    That time passed a long while ago…and the Wednesday prayer meetings are either almost empty or the time of another lecture.

  55. Josh the Baptist says:

    Intervene, yes. Kill others? No. We aren’t talking about a psycho drowning a child or anything else. We are talking about going in and murdering people at abortion clinics. If that is what you want to see happen, say it. It is evil, and absolutely against everything that we know about our God, but go ahead and stand on that.

  56. Michael says:


    I’ve tried to be really clear that I’m not saying that.

    By the way…happy birthday!
    We’re grateful for you, my friend.

  57. Josh the Baptist says:

    Thank you Michael!

    My response was to Jim.

    BUT!!! If we are not clear that we are not advocating these things, the press will be justified in lumping us in with the Islamic radicals.

  58. Michael says:


    This is a very complex issue in my mind.
    My hope was that we might explore those complexities, not have a throw down.

    We don’t do that well yet…

  59. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, my comment is ENTIRELY connected to the whacko because that is the focus of the post I (and a couple others) are criticizing. If you want to change the subject to a broader discussion then that is fine and dandy but then don’t criticize my remarks which are made in a direct specific context as being “silly and out of context.”

    you know..the post titled “planned parenthood shooter”

    Not a psycho drowning someone’s kid in a pool. Good grief is there any question that anyone on this board would stand by and let that happen?

    By the way, you’re the libertarian who if I recall rightly say that we should not use any political means to change the laws on abortion….or is that part of the libertarian plank you reject?

  60. Josh the Baptist says:

    I can’t have a reasonable conversation about the possibility of killing abortionists. I have to stand against that as forcefully and loudly as I know how.

    IF the conversation is about other ways to bring down abortion numbers, I’m all in.

  61. Steve Wright says:

    I admit to two things.

    1) Not finding the issue about shooting indiscriminately at a Planned Parenthood office as complex. That is my opinion.

    2) Having a hard time not being forceful when the starting point is someone calling me a hypocrite and a coward and comparing me to people who sat back while Hitler gassed Jews.

    So I will move on from this one from here…have said my peace.

  62. Jim says:


    I do not advocate shooting up abortion clinics.

  63. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’m glad to know that. The article we are discussing says it was a heroic act.

  64. Michael says:

    Here’s the complexity.

    About five miles from here there is undoubtedly an abortion taking place as we speak.
    What moral obligation do I have to save that child who is right now having it’s life taken?

    What is biblically demanded and allowed in terms of interceding to save that life…or the one that will be taken in another hour?

    If that’s an easy question, then you’re all a lot smarter than me…

  65. Jim says:


    At least one third of libertarians are pro life, as the philosophy is based on the non-aggression principle. I’m a Christian above all political philosophy, and I’m not a member of the libertarian party, so it’s sort of a dumb question. All political parties platforms are equally meaningless to me.

  66. Michael says:

    “All political parties platforms are equally meaningless to me.”

    A man after my own heart… 🙂

  67. Jean says:

    Michael #65,

    You have several vocations.

    As a parent, you raise your son. If you break the law and are shot or imprisoned, you are failing in your vocation as a parent.

    You are a neighbor. You offer help to pregnant women, directly or through organizations, as you are able, to influence their decisions in favor of the life of their unborn babies, and taking care of them after they’re born.

    You are a citizen. You vote for local, state and federal legislators, judges (depending on where you live) and executives. You can vote and participate in the political process in favor of life. As a citizen, you obey the laws of the land, unless they would cause you to disobey the laws of God.

    You are a pastor. You can proclaim God’s Word regarding life.

    What is so complicated?

  68. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael, it is a very easy question as to whether you should go shoot them or not. That answer would be “no”.

    The unfortunate truth is that you probably won’t save the baby in the Dr’s office right now. You may have the chance to save one that hasn’t been conceived yet. You’ll have to get involved with young people.

  69. Michael says:


    The complication is that all those things aren’t going to save children being killed right now at this moment.
    If the child were three or four would our reaction be different…and then only because of a legal definition?
    That would seem like a complication to me.


    How many times do I have to say that shooting the place up isn’t an option?

  70. Josh the Baptist says:

    A bunch.

  71. Michael says:

    Shooting up the place isn’t an option.
    There’s one more…I have to be in double digits by now.
    I guess that is the end of the entire thought process.
    Have a great day.

  72. Josh the Baptist says:

    Listen, if someone is advocating shooting up the place (a heroic act), I’m gonna speak against that a bunch before I entertain anything else.

    But Jean and I offered other options, too. Those don’t get much traction.

  73. Michael says:


    I think we all acknowledge those options.
    They don’t stop the real person from really being killed right now…because we are not making any attempt to save that life right now.
    Nor will we do so tomorrow.
    It’s as if writing off those lives in hope of future developments.
    However, it’s obviously only a problem in my mind.

  74. Nonnie says:

    Josh, you just keep preaching! I’m right there with you.

    Some whacko who shoots indiscriminately at people is not a righteous act, just because he does it in an abortion clinic. Abortion is wrong and shooting people in abortion clinics is wrong.

  75. Josh the Baptist says:

    “we are not making any attempt to save that life right now.
    Nor will we do so tomorrow.”

    You are wrong. I AM making attempts to save those lives. I *think* I have made a dent in my small community. There a children running around my town now, in some small part due to my efforts.

  76. Josh the Baptist says:

    Thanks, Nonnie. Agreed.

  77. Michael says:


    I’m speaking specifically of the ones being killed while we do all the other alternatives.

    We are not doing anything to stop that act.

    I’m done…this conversation can’t get past shooting up the clinic.

    Now, I will read all the Twitter nuts commenting on the San Bernadino massacre.

  78. Josh the Baptist says:

    UNfortunately, this conversation started with shooting up the clinic, so I can’t take full credit for that.

    And no, once the woman is in the stirrups, there is usually nothing we can do. We have to reach the woman before she gets to that point. It is slow, but it is the only way.

  79. Jean says:

    There is a huge complication for those who want America to continue to prosper as a nation. Our nation appears to be in a slow motion death spiral. To call out a few of the more serious issues: (1) Our politics is almost completely paralyzed; our leaders don’t get the people’s business done. (2) Government is viewed by many as a source of evil rather than a restraint on evil. (3) The Church in America, long a source of social and moral stability, is losing influence as a source of virtue and truth. Virtue and truth is becoming relativized. And (4) Financially, America is in great peril due to its debt, deficits and unfunded liabilities.

    Right now, the only conversations I read and hear in the news and on social media are about tearing one another down; assigning blame; creating fear and anger. I don’t see how America will fix its problems with these as the primary tools.

  80. Steve Wright says:

    See above for (I quote from the site) a non-profit ministry dedicated to sharing the love of Jesus Christ and protecting the sanctity of life by serving women in need.

    1) Volunteer to help at a similar ministry in your town.

    2) Give money to this one if you don’t have a similar ministry in your town

    3) Pray for this one – including the people from our church serving there if you don’t have money.

    4) When asked to, call the local city councils and mayors when these ministries try to get government permission to work in those cities. It is often quite difficult, especially if Democrats run the city.

    All seem like very Christian alternatives to shooting up a Planned Parenthood office.

    Just a few options that might actually save a baby or two, as well as the soul of a confused, scared pregnant woman (or girl)

  81. Em says:

    the rational comments above all call for the Church doing something to push back against this atmosphere we live in of easy abortions… none include random killings and bombings… that said, it is IMV, easy to understand why a decent human would reach the point of taking desperate measures – killing to stop the killing of the innocents…
    the Church doesn’t have that option… we have to do as Steve points out in his #81, do we not?
    and i do understand the declaration, the self condemning, “I am a coward and a hypocrite.” can’t one feel that way and yet not call out all of us as being that?

  82. Soldier of Jah says:

    Please pray for Redlands, search warrants being served right across the street from my girlfriends work which is a ministry. She is a bit scared. this stems from the San Bernardino shooting. I’m always in that area

  83. Ms. ODM says:

    Men – what would you do if your woman who is carrying your baby heads out the door to the local Planned Parenthood facility — after all, its her body – the fact that the unborn child is your flesh and blood puts a whole new spin on it. OK heroes – WHAT DO YOU DO???????

  84. Ms. ODM says:

    Would an underground war to destroy facilities while empty of people — arson, etc., be more to your liking? It’s just a building — not people – and one less place for women conspirators to go.

    Violence — wow — I couldn’t do it myself — so like the rest of you, I too am a coward and a hypocrite. We all have blood on our hands – just like the Germans with heads in the sand.

    Those who disagree need to admit you actually do NOT believe the unborn are people — living persons. You can’t have it both ways.

  85. Josh the Baptist says:

    MS. ODM – Your definition of a coward is one who is not committing violence. Think about that for a second, please.

  86. Miss ODM says:

    I suppose David was a coward for killing Goliath. A coward runs the other way to save his own skin while killers are on the rampage against the innocent. If the boot fits, wear it.

  87. Josh the Baptist says:

    Slaying Goliath is not quite the same as shooting up an abortion clinic.

    Miss ODM has taken a scary turn today. Hope you’ll come to your senses before something awful happens.

    I can’t be involved in this conversation any longer.

  88. Ms. ODM says:

    Still doesn’t make sense Michael

  89. Ms. ODM says:

    I guess my last two comments are lost to history — now it works.

  90. Em says:

    can a Christian destroy a building because it is a place of evil? i’d have to say that there is NOTHING in the N.T. that gives us that direction… but i suppose that, just like any other compassionate human, they can be so moved… but it would have nothing to do with what God has called the Church to … what God is going to hold us accountable for is the gospel, the remedy for an eternal disaster

    or so it seems to me

  91. Steve Wright says:

    David and Goliath is a story about warfare. Israel was at war with the Philistines.

    As are the Hitler Nazi Germany examples….Your illustrations are so terribly (and obviously) wrong.

    The Bible could not be clearer that Christians are also in a war, but it most definitely is not an earthly war with carnal weapons. Now, if a bunch of Muslims decide to try and take over America, a whole lot of Christians are going to take up arms and blow them to Mohammed (who is in hell).

    But they are going to be doing so as Americans fighting for Americans and freedom, not as some Christian army fighting under the banner of the cross.

    MIss ODM has a whole lot of followers online, and is tremendously influential in their lives.

    As a woman you have an even greater opportunity than the men to speak eye to eye to pregnant women and make a difference in their lives and the lives within their womb. And you certainly have the time. God help you if someone who reads your stuff kills somebody out there – words have tremendous power, especially over those who look up to us.

    The only coward is the person who hides behind a computer and doesn’t step out into the world and deal with hurting, lost, people face to face in the name of Jesus. If THAT boot fits you, then wear it – but I have been reading your stuff for years and recall terribly few examples of any recent ministry that went beyond typing letters on a keyboard.

  92. Ms. ODM says:

    Steve – What would you know about my mnistry offline? I happen to walk into a state prison every Friday night facilitating a Bible study and evangelizing the lost. And saving babies that have not yet been born? Yeah I have notches on my belt for that too.

    But this is NOT about me. I admit to my hypocrisy – you will not. So just stop saying unborn babies are really live babies — because if you really thought that, you would not be saying these things. You continue to be a coward in my book – like the rest of us. But you can’t humble yourself enough to admit it.

  93. Ms. ODM says:

    I’m working another angle – I posted this here last night but it would not show up – trying again.

    I’m not quite ready to drop the abortion topic just yet. Recall the comparison I made the other day to the American military compelling the local German citizens to tour the concentration camp before the piles of dead Jews could be buried. Well – a few states require a woman seeking an abortion to view an ultrasound of her living fetus. The opposition, which is stringent, to this requirement want women to operate in the dark. They want to keep women ignorant. Like the Germans seeing the mayhem of Hitler — women who get abortions need to know the gravity of what they are doing. They should have it on their conscience. They should do the killing fully knowing whom it is they are doing away with. Full disclosure. If your state does not have such a law — find out who is lobbying for it and join the fight.

    A baby step for humanity.

  94. Ms. ODM says:

    What a sorry replacement for John Duncan

  95. Jim says:

    Would the more gentle among us approve of a man who burst into a “clinic” and started turning over tables and flinging around a whip?

  96. Josh the Baptist says:

    What would that accomplish, Jim?

    Are you really hoping to tie the planned parenthood shooter to Jesus?

  97. Josh the Baptist says:

    I approved of the guy who leaked the Planned Parenthood video.

    I approve of non-violent protesters and picketers.

    I approve of measures that have a woman view an ultrasound before the abortion could take place.

    I absolutely DO NOT approve of shooting up an abortion clinic.

    Why is that so hard to fathom?

  98. Jim says:


    So do you approve of shooting up a PP clinic? 🙂

    The “PP shooter” is not on my radar, as he’s just another wacko who wanted to kill people, and no, I’m not trying to tie him to Jesus. That’s the media’s job, as they pander to their political masters.

    I’m saying what I’ve said through this entire thread. As a general principle, a measure of violence is acceptable in defense of the innocent. The unwashed shed dweller lived a life full of unacceptable acts, and needs to rot in jail.

  99. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, it blows me away when I read “the more gentle among us” – pointed our way. I thought by now my views on the sword (not to mention self-defense) were pretty well established.

    You do not have to be some gun control, pacifist, no death penalty cop hating college professor to see that followers of Jesus Christ should not support madmen who indiscriminately shoot up a Planned Parenthood office…like Josh said, it is not that hard to fathom.

    Marginalizing those who disagree with you by silly, false stereotypes (well, he must be a gun hating pansy) may comfort you and keep a reexamination of your take…but then again, you wrote above you did not support the guy…so I don’t know what you are getting at but opposing a Planned Parenthood shooting that is being exalted (or even discussed) by Christians as possibly heroic is not Obama going out after every shooting calling for a ban on guns.

  100. Xenia says:

    Ms. ODM, you are not a coward. You are one of the bravest Christians I know, even if I don’t agree with you about many things. It is not cowardice that stays your hand, it is the presence of the Holy Spirit within you that keeps you from doing murder because murder is not the way of the Christian.

  101. Josh the Baptist says:

    1. The article linked called the shooting heroic.
    2. A commenter has continuously called those of us who would not kill abortionists cowards.
    3. You have consistently argued against what I have said while saying you aren’t for the killing.

    So what are you getting at?

  102. Jim says:

    Marginalizing those who disagree with you by silly, false stereotypes (well, he must be a gun hating pansy) may comfort you and keep a reexamination of your take…

    Did I do this?

  103. Jim says:


    I’ve clearly stated what I’m getting at.

    “I’m saying what I’ve said through this entire thread. As a general principle, a measure of violence is acceptable in defense of the innocent.”

  104. Miss ODM says:


    The Senate is about to vote on an important spending bill called “reconciliation” – including an amendment that would defund Planned Parenthood of more than 80% of the federal funding they receive. This amendment MUST be passed or else Planned Parenthood will continue to receive massive amounts of taxpayer dollars, even after videos have been made public of Planned Parenthood abortionists casually discussing the harvesting and sale of baby body parts.
    Taxpayer funding of the nation’s largest abortion Goliath has to end and it has to end now.

    Every day Planned Parenthood gets over $1 million dollars from you and me – we are forced donors to an organization that betrays women and sells them out, and their preborn babies, on a daily basis.
    Can you call your Senators TODAY and tell them to vote for the amendment to defund Planned Parenthood in the reconciliation bill? Call the US Capitol switchboard at (202) 224-3121. Find your Senator and their phone number here.
    Go here to learn more about why Planned Parenthood should be defunded and get talking points for talking to your Senator.
    The votes on the amendment to defund Planned Parenthood, and then later on the entire bill, are scheduled to take place TOMORROW, Thursday.

    This bill has already passed through the House and could pass the Senate and head to President Obama’s desk. The amendment (and the final reconciliation bill) doesn’t need 60 votes – only a majority at 51 votes. It will be close, but this is our best opportunity to end more than $400 million dollars in annual funding to the nation’s largest abortion business.

    Don’t assume your Senator will vote one way or the other – please call and make your voice heard. All U.S. Senators need to hear from their pro-life constituents today and tell them to vote for the amendment to defund Planned Parenthood.

    For Life,
    Kristan Hawkins
    President, Students for Life of America

  105. Josh the Baptist says:

    Wow. Jackie, other than just trying to be mean to me, is there something in my posts on this thread that has led you to believe that I don’t care about the slaughter of innocents?

    If not, it would be the Christian thing to do to apologize for that evil lie.

    If I have, I would like the opportunity to correct the perception.

  106. Jim says:

    Josh has shown his passion towards this issue, and in a humble way has shared a little re the actual sweat equity he’s invested. The Ms threw an inaccurate low blow.

  107. Josh the Baptist says:

    Thanks, Jim.

  108. Miss ODM says:

    Xenia – Thank you for your kind words — i always jokingly called myself the Proverbs 31 woman – though I’m not the domestic Susie Homemaker type. But the Proverbs 31 verses I have always seen as my life verse are these:

    “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” – Prov 31:8-9

    Now those verses are coming to life again for an entire different reason than they did to me when I started ministry 30 years ago.

  109. Miss ODM says:

    The New King James version says it better –

    “Open your mouth for the speechless,
    In the cause of all who are appointed to die”

  110. Em says:

    well, FWIW, i think that Pastor Wright is doing what God intends for him to do … i’m thinking that discernment does not equate with cowardice

    call your senators, but pray first …

  111. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have a question for Miss ODM
    If we should make abortion illegal, how long would you throw the offending mother in the slammer? 15 to 25? 25 to life?

    I want to get a feel for this.

  112. Jim says:

    Are Miss ODM and Ms ODM the same person?

  113. Em says:

    “If we should make abortion illegal,…” it was illegal until when? the 70s? … sadly, we just can’t legislate this thing, i don’t think … making it “legal” has just created a monster of abuse and immorality every bit as bad (worse, i think) than what we had before…

    or so it seems to me

  114. Steve Wright says:

    this is our best opportunity to end more than $400 million dollars in annual funding to the nation’s largest abortion business.
    What a naive political statement. Obama is going to veto this. Immediately.

    No, the “best opportunity” will be putting a Republican in the White House, and keeping the Republicans in charge of the Senate and House….every Christian being a single issue voter this year and refusing to vote any candidate (including the Republican ones in the primaries) who supports abortion. And also does not stay home but actually gets to the voting booth.

    I know…good luck with that Steve.

    Did Miss ODM support Romney the Mormon for President? He would have signed this bill.

    Folks the reason the GOP is in total upheaval is almost entirely due to the Planned Parenthood videos (and funding) and the Republican establishment’s blase reaction a couple months ago – so any establishment candidate is in a world of hurt right now and bozos like Trump and outsiders like Carson are getting the votes instead.

    That nutcase who shot up the Planned Parenthood actually has hurt the cause to defund them….(well done, nutcase).

  115. Miss ODM says:

    Don’t bother trying to oppose abortion support by our government — Sanballat — I mean Steve — says it’s a waste of our time.

  116. Michael says:

    I haven’t had time to deal with this thread…kind of have my hands full with another matter on the front page.

    Name calling and hostility will not serve to bring light and appropriate action…it just causes more division.

    We really have enough of that.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.