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50 Responses

  1. Steve Wright says:

    The Rapture thing didn’t just shape our understanding of Jesus’ second coming, but also reshaped how we viewed his first coming. Jesus’ birth, life, death and resurrection, in this system, came to be seen as a failure — a mistake that would need to be corrected in the second try of the second coming.
    ————————————————————
    Even when MLD is trolling is hardest he has never written anything so foolish to represent the point of view of those he disagrees with. There must be a word larger than strawman to describe this tactic? Strawstadium?

    Imagine that guy sharing a stage with one of the scholars from Dallas Seminary and trying to begin his debate with that line….I would pay to see the response.

  2. Kevin H says:

    Steve,

    Even though I still lean pre-trib, pre-mill, I have been turned off over the years by much of the sensationalism and idle speculation and overemphasis on the Rapture that comes from some segments of this camp. I think there is much to criticize there. However, I agree with you about the statement quoted in this article. It is way over the top and an unfair characterization.

  3. Em says:

    Even though i was alive and a Christian during the so-called rapture frenzy, i was interested, but not caught up the rip-tide… still … do we have any idea how many actually came to salvation because of all the hubbub – picking up a book from the display out of curiosity? God does use foolish things at times, does he not? and the rapture event itself? i think it’s fact, not fiction… but it’s sure a long time coming nevertheless 🙂 or so it seems down here

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, is that any different than someone getting “saved” listening to Joel Osteen and promises of riches, success and happiness?

    I see no difference.

  5. Em says:

    we’ve lost our consciousness of the Bible? well written, worth reading, but what we’ve lost in this nation in my lifetime – IMHO – is RESPECT for the Book, the Faith and, of course, The God of both … even if feigned, one would have been embarrassed to disrespect them socially – unless one identified with the psuedo-interllectuals that have been on the rise for 100+ years now

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    I no longer wish to hear what Naghmeh thinks. I would like to hear from her but not about spirituality, not just now. She matters, her kids matter, her situation matters but I find the moral authority is gone. I am probably wrong. I hope I am wrong. I just no longer listen to her with interest unless there is some hope of clarity coming forth.

  7. Michael says:

    BD,

    She finds herself with a platform now and I’m waiting to see how long it takes for her to run out of things God “told” her.
    I’m not the slightest bit interested in her piety, I want some explanations about her accusations.
    I was frankly a bit disgusted…

  8. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, funny you should mention me in your #1 – yesterday at #21 @ 2:06pm on the Things I Think thread I did say something similar.

    “Well, unlike many I don’t think there are only 6 primary issues in Christianity and everything else is a secondary issue to be left open to how someone feels.

    However, even what some would call a secondary issue can and should be argued for boldly as many of those affect how we really understand the “primary” issues.

    An example – Israel could be considered a secondary issue (I may even consider it a non issue), but some really weird teaching have come out of it – that you see in some of the primary issues.”

  9. Josh the Baptist says:

    Babs and Michael – That is a bizarre twist. Why would you be upset / disgusted / with her?

  10. Em says:

    MLD, i don’t care what grabs the attention of the unsaved ones that turns them to examine the Faith… even Joel The Rich … we’re not talking about bandwagon Christianity … well maybe you are – dunno

  11. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Her claim to fame was as the wife of an unjustly imprisoned missionary.
    She singlehandedly gutted that campaign.
    Now that that is no longer her agenda she has decided that her feet still fit the platform, but she won’t speak to the things people need to know to have some clarity on the matter.
    Instead, she’s going to share with us private messages from God that fit her pietistic theology.

    No, thank you.

  12. Nonnie says:

    I wasn’t comfortable reading Nagmeh’s exhortation. BD and Michael have expressed some of what I was thinking.

    On the other hand, she is a young woman with 2 children and I am guessing, that for the past 3 years has been “managed” by PR people and tossed around churches and speaking platforms. I’m thinking she is probably confused and hurting. I hope she has some people around her who truly care for her and her children’s best interests and are giving her some wise advice.

  13. Michael says:

    She has also stated that she made good bank on her speaking tours…

  14. Em says:

    amen to Nonnie’s #12 – i have no way to judge what the dynamic is in her house, but what a position to find one’s self in

  15. Babylon's Dread says:

    Josh,

    When she speaks I lean in expecting to hear some form of clarity from her. All I get is her devotional expressions. They are fine, I do not doubt them to be genuine but they are irrelevant. This last bit of an article was merely derived from her devotional postings. I have no interest in them. Nor do I think that someone with so many unanswered questions about honesty can exhort us to a greater piety with moral authority. So I am disinterested. I try to express it without rancor and just factually.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The short video Justification by Faith? Was that put up to point out error.

    Are we Justified by Faith? Me and my Lutheran buddies are Justified by God’s grace and the faith is given to us in order for us to be able to receive.

  17. dswoager says:

    On the losing consciousness of the Bible link, I kind of lean toward, so what?

    The secular culture’s knowledge of scripture is way down the list of things that I am concerned about.

    Closer to the top being how easily people are manipulated by those who use the name of Christ to further their own ambitions (political or otherwise).

  18. Xenia says:

    I do not care about David Bowie, other than lamenting that he probably died without Christ and is probably (because no one can know for sure) “splitting hell wide open.” The loss of any human to hell is always a tragedy.

    How many people did he take along with him?

    He was a promiscuous, drug-taking sexual pervert who had the knack of turning out clever tunes that reflected his godless philosophy of life. But there was something about him that was alluring to many impressionable people.

    Reminds me of the late Amy Winehouse, whose life I had occasion to look into recently (long story as to why). She was everyone’s daughter gone bad yet lived a life that was somehow attractive to many young people. Heroin Chic, eating disorder, cutter, alcoholic, covered with ironic tattoos… all dark and very appealing to many. There are always people who are attracted to morbidness and squalor and Amy had her fans.

    She won five Emmy’s, mostly for a song called “Rehab.”

    “They say I need to go to rehab and I say No No No.”

    Stupid song yet it appeals to those who flirt with the dark side. Hollywood thought it worthy of Emmys. If this isn’t a sign of the degeneration of our society I don’t know what is.

    Thing is, I listened to the Rehab song one time and I have been humming it myself ever since. See the power of evil to snare the unwary….

    We do not need to celebrate the lives of these people, we need to mourn for the destruction they have caused.

  19. Bob Sweat says:

    What Xenia said!

  20. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Without some background in the writings of Leonard Meyer and the composition of Pierre Boulez what I wrote might not entirely come across. It’s not that Johnny Cash, Ray Charles, John Lennon or Bob Dylan led particularly unblemished lives, the broader observation I was making was about Bowie as the kind of artists Meyer described as a formalist, those who shift across styles and play with the boundaries of artistic styles.
    Bowie was perhaps the most overtly formalist in his public musical career. If Stravinsky was the chameleon in music for the first half of the 20th century perhaps Bowie was the chameleon for its second half.

    Not quite a celebration of Bowie’s music. I’ve spent more hours in the last twenty years listening to every Haydn string quartet than to even three Bowie songs. But while academic musicology tended toward doubling down on atonality and serialism pop musicians have been blurring boundaries, I didn’t say that all those boundary blurring moves were salutary.

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Saturday afternoon, my wife and I watched 3 hours of YouTube videos of ABBA on our 65″ screen. 3 days later I still cannot get Super Trouper out of my head. Those 4 Swedes are still moving around in my dance floor head. 😉

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Friday night it was 2 hours of Cat Stevens – he was so cool.
    We should all have a blog sing along of Peace Train 🙂

  23. Michael says:

    As one of the most fervent fans of Jerry Lee Lewis ever, I could care less what they do at home.

    Much great art, whether it be literature, music, or others forms of expression has been from the hands of scoundrels, deviants, and broken souls.

    I mourn for them while appreciating what that soul brokenness produced.

    If all I had to listen to, look at, and see, was contemporary Christian “art”…as the late great Etta James said, “I’d rather be blind”.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I will take issue with 1 Denis point. No one takes anyone else with them to help. Everyone goes by their own volition, their own sin and their own unbelief.

  25. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Denis = Xenia
    I. Using protestant phone

  26. Michael says:

    I wish I was one of those people who enjoyed classical music or jazz.

    It’s intelligent, refined, music.

    They both annoy me.

    If it doesn’t move my soul, I ain’t playing it.

  27. Xenia says:

    MLD, you have to train it.

  28. Cash says:

    Michael #23

    I agree wholeheartedly. You can tell by my monicker one of my very favorites. 🙂

  29. Xenia says:

    There’s a difference between Johnny Cash and David Bowie (and poor Amy.) Cash was a Christian who struggled and his songs were often about his struggle. There’s a lot in his music that can touch the spirit. Bowie and Winehouse were unrepentant unbelievers whose music was an anthem for hedonism..

    Big difference.

  30. Cash says:

    Xenia,

    Much of Johnny’s music were songs of redemption. But many of his own songs had murder as a recurring theme. There is a dark side to art. The human spirit isn’t one dimensional. I will agree that Johnny didn’t encourage his fans to go out and murder other people but it was a recurring theme in his music. In the song “Delia” for example he describes himself as an abusive man who kills a woman. At the end he says, “So if your woman’s devilish, you can let her run, or you can do her like Delia got done.” My point is that Johnny wasn’t intending to encourage murder in a domestic relationship. It was an artistic device. And perhaps the songs of David Bowie and Amy Winehouse were just that–art, not purposefully intending to encourage hedonism and lawlessness, though it may well have done so.

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Look at Alice Cooper – all through his career he made it know it was an act.

    Alice Cooper and Lady Gaga both stay sane because they go into character for the performance and come right out when they are done. The trouble with folks like Winehouse or Kurt Coban or a list of others – they become that character, live it 24 hours and drag themselves into the darkness.

  32. Michael says:

    I loved Cash.
    I know people who knew Cash personally who loved him.

    He was a Christian…no doubt.
    I can also assure you that describing him as a “Christian” is utterly inadequate.
    He had his deep darkness and fought his devils to the end.

  33. Dan from georgia says:

    Michael. Loved your comment from 2:01pm about music/arts in general. Why oh why does becoming a Christian stifle people’s creativity?

  34. Steve Wright says:

    Christian parents in the 1960s expressed shock at the music their teenagers were listening to, yet didn’t bat an eye while voting men into power who have destroyed millions of people in just about every way imaginable – including spiritually.

    And the beat has gone on ever since….

  35. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    since it was fifty years ago today …

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/celebrating-50-years-heroes-villains-batmania

    I liked the Nolan Batman films but that doesn’t mean I can’t also enjoy the old Adam West Batman, too.

  36. Michael says:

    Dan,

    I used to get nasty emails whenever I brought up Jerry Lee…from people who listened to pure crap because it was “Christian”.

    They had to have their computers baptized after my responses arrived.

    I don’t care anymore…not that I cared much then either.

  37. Michael says:

    WtH,

    I feel very old now…my keepers would only let me watch it occasionally because they didn’t approve of my love for comic books in general and Batman in particular.

    I still haven’t completely forgiven this offense…

    I’m reading the new Frank Miller books as we speak…

  38. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I was sorta disappointed with DKSA but read All Star. I’ve liked some of Scott Snyder’s run and disliked some of it. Court of the Owls was fun, Night of the Owls ret-conned some stuff in ways that annoyed me. You don’t mess with Paul Dini’s perfect back story for Mr. Freeze! On the other hand, I like what Snyder did with Riddler, almost as much as Dini’s turn of making Nygma an egotistical private detective competing with Batman on cases.

    I’ve gotten to know people who weren’t even born yet when Batman: the animated series, one of my personal favorites, started on the air almost 25 years ago.

  39. Bob2 says:

    “Christian parents in the 1960s expressed shock at the music their teenagers were listening to, yet didn’t bat an eye while voting men into power who have destroyed millions of people in just about every way imaginable – including spiritually.”

    Yeah, you’re right. Richard Nixon was a true a-hole. Dirty, slimy and nasty.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Reagan brought no fault divorce to the country as CA Gov in the 60a

  41. Back to music, here is a 5 min video short to Lutheran youth about music. The gist is that you don’t need to listen to Christian music – you can listen to any kind of music but just filter it through “your baptism” knowing that it is not your world view and will not be your world view and having the understanding that you are free in Christ.

    The speaker is the president of a national Lutheran youth organization and a pastor in Illinois. To the right are almost 400 of these ‘shorts’

  42. I guess I need to take a class how to do this. If you click in the upper left where it shows 1/200 and go to #154 that will be the right one

  43. Dan from Georgia says:

    Amen Michael! Keep offending those computers and silly “safe-for-the-whole-family” people. A co-worker of mine a while back, when the subject of music came up, repeated that stupid phrase when she stated what she listens to now. I wanted to puke.

    Why is it that Christians only want to create “safe” art. I love to paint, and I hate it, HATE IT, when someone suggests I do only “safe” paintings.

    You know the kind, Lions laying down with lambs, Thomas Kincade knock-off crap, angels standing over a white middle-class couple who are praying, pictures of flowers, eagles, etc.

  44. JoelG says:

    This is such a liberating concept, MLD. I can’t stomach CCM. Unfortunately this is the most of the music our current church uses for worship. And one of our pastors “visions” for the year is the we go “higher” in worship on Sunday’s. As an introvert, this is a nightmare. Ugh….

  45. Em says:

    15 reasons for hymnals… exactly right… for those younger than myself who never experienced the formality of a sanctuary of churches past… the link may seem strange and what it describes may seem artificial – it wasn’t

  46. JoelG says:

    Good article, Em. I believe you. We experienced it at a church that sang from hymnals and had a traditional liturgy. Then they hired a liberal youth pastor. Now we’re at a conservative CC again that emphasizes “participation” in modern worship. Very loud music that I couldn’t sing to if there was a gun to my head.

    So I’m about ready to throw in the towel on “church”. I’m a terrible churchman.

  47. Em says:

    Joel, you say “we” – if you have children i don’t know how one raises them “in the nurture and admonition of the Lord” without a good church home… praying you find a home – i do miss church up here in the mountains… i completely disagree with those who say the great outdoors IS my church 🙂

  48. JoelG says:

    I’m sorry you don’t have church and miss it, Em. Funny, I’d rather be up in the mountains without a church, myself. 😉 Don’t get me wrong, I love the people at our church, just not modern worship. Thank you for the prayer. In consideration of your thoughts, perhaps I should just suck it up. Something to pray about / ponder. Thanks Em.

  49. DavidH says:

    Michael said,

    “As one of the most fervent fans of Jerry Lee Lewis ever, I could care less what they do at home.

    Much great art, whether it be literature, music, or others forms of expression has been from the hands of scoundrels, deviants, and broken souls.

    I mourn for them while appreciating what that soul brokenness produced.

    If all I had to listen to, look at, and see, was contemporary Christian “art”…as the late great Etta James said, “I’d rather be blind”.”

    Amen.

    My favorite musician is Keith Richards. His hamster hopped of the wheel years ago.

    Art, literature, poetry, and music comes from the minds of humans, generally profoundly messed up humans. I should know, I am one. I’ve been in the circle of musicians for decades – good, bad or indifferent. Artists are weird!!! Michelangelo, who is one of the greatest artists in history, was profoundly messed up, exhibiting many of the flaws that would destine him to hell by modern Christian standards.

    After a long five year journey out of that trap, I have a great sense of freedom, and liberty.

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