Loose Ends

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133 Responses

  1. Babylon's Dread says:

    I love this place even though I don’t contribute as much as in the past.

  2. Michael says:

    BD,

    Am I correct in speaking of this as an example of the beast…the anti-Christ spirit?

  3. fyi says:

    Michael, I am speaking about this very thing on my live radio program later today. Thanks for sharing my heart in this post. I join you in praying for Chris Broussard and in crying over the loss of shame we now experience. The USA is no longer able to blush with embarrassment…

  4. erunner says:

    ESPN has come out in support of Chris Brousard and his job is safe.

  5. Michael says:

    fyi,

    Do not forget grace…
    I’m stunned at the speed that this has happened with…

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    The tragedy of cultures embracing homosexuality as normative and celebrating those who practice it is that those who are snared by the darkness of it are left with no advocates.

    Many in the lifestyle live with sexual ambiguity caused by trauma. Many languish in pain because it does not satisfy the craving for oneness and wholeness. It has become a sin to help people who want to be free.

    I guess I am going to have to die both protesting the mistreatment of people who are gay and resisting the abuse of those who stand for gays who want out and want help.

    The intolerance that is brewing in the name of tolerance is going to leave a holocaust of victims.

  7. Babylon's Dread says:

    Indeed Michael

    This is the spirit of anti-christ.

  8. Michael says:

    “I guess I am going to have to die both protesting the mistreatment of people who are gay and resisting the abuse of those who stand for gays who want out and want help.”

    Amen…

  9. Michael says:

    E,

    Perhaps…I give him a couple of months.

  10. erunner says:

    Michael, It would be pathetic if they let him go. Will it one day be a hate crime for expressing we disagree with the homosexual lifestyle? Talk about tolerance….

  11. fyi says:

    Thanks, Michael. Grace is impossible for me to forget. I have received so much. I really do understand how difficult it must be to be gay and told you must resit those urges. Broussard’s statements came only when told that this player was a Christian and his response was that he couldn’t be. That’s really where I am going because we all face the same challenges (in what will so be) daily. I remember less than 5 years ago, telling my church that this will be the battle ground that those who will come after me might have to die on. I expected this in 15-20 years. The speed at which this has happened is, as you noted, breathtaking.

  12. Xenia says:

    His announcement is only brave if he said this: “I am guilty of a terrible secret sin and I am telling you all about this because I am in the difficult process of repenting of it and I would appreciate your prayers.” Is that what he said? Otherwise, where’s the bravery? It’s as if he said “I am a chronic shoplifter and proud of it.”

  13. erunner says:

    Xenia, I believe the danger in today’s PC climate is he could have lost his job as I imagine some are calling for that. ESPN has been quick in the past to hand out discipline. It boils down to do we consider risking our livelihood for speaking our beliefs considered brave when we could take another route and pretty much plead the 5th.

  14. Are people not allowed sexual morals?

    If not, lock up your sons and daughters, because all bets are off.

    If we are allowed sexual morals, then what are we to base those morals on?

  15. Xenia says:

    E, I think the announcer is brave, it was the basketball player who I do not find especially courageous. I think the announcer is brave!

  16. Xenia says:

    God bless him!

  17. Michael says:

    Josh,

    You’ve hit on another spot.
    We soon will be held accountable by the culture for teaching our children Christian morality and passing down our traditions,

  18. Nonnie says:

    People like Dawkins are already calling for Christian parents to be hauled up on child abuse charges. I don’t think we are far from it now.

  19. Kevin H says:

    I have thought for the past year or two that the homosexual issue is a snowball gaining such momentum down the hill, that outside of a nation-wide revival or renewal, there will be no reversal, let alone even a slowdown. As Christians, we certainly can improve the way we have handled and spoken to the issue. But that will not make a difference in the public square. No matter how graciously we speak to the issue, if we still dare call homosexuality a sin, we will more and more be labeled as bigots, homophobes, zealots, etc., and treated with disgust. It will make life harder for us.

    And that is not even addressing what could happen from a legal standpoint. On one hand, our Constitution guarantees us freedom of religion. On the other hand, I have fears that freedom could end up being reduced to a freedom to call oneself a Christian, but without the freedom to stand on certain convicitions, the homosexuality issue being the most prominent one. Homosexual “rights” will take precedence in law over religious rights. I hope and pray that I’m wrong. But that is where I see this country heading.

  20. Steve Wright says:

    To add onto something Michael wrote about the fiance.

    This man claims to have had these feelings since childhood. He describes the struggle of hiding ‘who he really was’ and the fear of someone finding out and outing him. OK. I can understand what he is saying, even as I oppose the behavior.

    However, he led a young lady on for EIGHT YEARS. He promised to marry her, and she gave up 8 years of her life – most of her 20s (they met in college). She had no idea he was homosexual, and although I could not find it written, I assume after 8 years they had somewhat of a physical relationship to some degree.

    Especially since she says she never suspected for a moment he was homosexual throughout their relationship.

    8 years while her millionaire boyfriend kept stringing her along. 8 years when she could have met another man, gotten married. 8 years of possible child-bearing – lost…no, STOLEN from her by deception.

    When he dumped her a couple years ago, he gave a bunch of weak excuses she never bought. So the last few years she has been left questioning what possibly went wrong. Why did he leave me?

    And then, as Michael wrote, she finds out when the rest of the world does, that he would rather pursue men.

    I’ll eat my Bible when I see some mainstream columnist write a scathing rebuke of that sort of selfishness and hurtful behavior against this innocent woman.

  21. Nonnie says:

    It won’t happen Steve. You see, it’s society’s fault he treated her like that. It’s society’s fault homosexuals may feel guilty about their lifestyle. Therefore, once everything is legal and marriage is legal, then no LGBT person will ever feel conflicted or guilty again. Because it is society’s judging them that causes all the problems in their lives….not the life choices. That is why you won’t hear anyone rebuke him. It’s not his fault.

    That is the line our culture is taking these days.

  22. Nonnie says:

    I posted this quote on FB and it goes well here:
    “Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.”

    ― Rick Warren

  23. Steve Wright says:

    I could add a question. During the eight years he was “committed” to his girlfriend, did he ever engage in sexual acts with men? How about protection used if the answer is ‘yes’

    what reporter is going to ask THAT question…

    Our world is so wanting someone like this to celebrate, that all other selfish acts will be overlooked.

  24. Steve Wright says:

    Nonnie, a couple days ago I saw an article about an actress I did not know who was celebrating being bisexual.

    She dated men, then I guess dated women, now she is married and expecting a baby with her husband while celebrating her bisexuality

    My question I could not find in the article is does this mean she still has relationships with women? Isn’t that still adultery? Or is there an exception in such a case?

    If not, then how is she bisexual? Hasn’t she made a choice for a heterosexual relationship in marriage?

    People like this actress is why I believe strongly we will see at some point in our lives either polygamy or polyamory being legalized. It is not “fair” to a bisexual to make him/her choose only one partner to be married to.

    I’d bet on it.

  25. Nonnie says:

    Nothing will surprise me now.
    This century has brought changes that would have been scoffed at 20 years ago.

    Our world is crazy.

  26. erunner says:

    Thanks for correcting me Xenia.

  27. Nonnie said, “Nothing will surprise me now.
    This century has brought changes that would have been scoffed at 20 years ago.

    Our world is crazy.”

    How about 200 years ago? Slavery was OK.

    How about 2,000 years ago? Killing women and children with stones was OK.

  28. So much bias and short-sightedness, no clue, many of you. Things today are light-years better than even 20 years ago, way way better than 2,000 years ago.

    For some reason homosexuality is lightening rod for fundamentalists.

  29. Xenia says:

    And who might this be

  30. covered says:

    Wow, that sure straightened us out… What were we thinking

  31. Nonnie says:

    IB
    Who of us have advocated any of the horrors you mentioned?

  32. voigt51 says:

    two thumbs up for the ESPN announcer stepping up to the plate. He did do it in hate or guile He proclaimed God’s word as it says bussard should have the right of free speech as anyone.. Oh BTW this player has been a bit player his entire career and since he has no contract so this becomes a great swan song.. Where was he 10 yrs ago

  33. covered says:

    Still waiting for a response to Nonnie’s #32

  34. “For some reason homosexuality is lightening rod for fundamentalists.”

    Or, homosexuality is being talked about constantly on tv, news, sitcoms, reality shows, sports…it’s always a conversation.

  35. Crowned1 says:

    My response is typically ‘I do not agree with any form of fornication’. Because for the life of me, I cannot understand why the homosexual community is ‘okay’ with fornication being a sin…but not homosexuality…since they are one and the same thing.

    Eventually they will say “so then the only thing keeping it a sin is that we are not married, and the country will not allow us to”

    The answer to that, of course, is “no, the state has no authority over God’s definition of marriage. Courts can marry you, church can marry you, a captain can marry you…doesn’t matter…your still not united by God.”

    The end result of course, is they do not want God telling them what to do. And that is the crux you arrive at where the debate ends.

  36. London says:

    “Or, homosexuality is being talked about constantly on tv, news, sitcoms, reality shows, sports…it’s always a conversation.”

    It’s a great distraction and way to neuter the church from doing anything about the significant problems of poverty, slavery, violence, addiction etc. Too busy flailing our arms around in the air about this one issue to pay attention to anything else that is harming people’s minds, bodies and souls.

  37. Pardon My Interruption says:

    London. Exactly.

  38. Bob says:

    Inglorious…

    No homosexuality is not a “lightening rod” for fundamentalist it is one for the entire world. If you had a chance to travel to many cultures and people groups you will find it is often “tolerated” but it is never a “norm.”

    The issue here is not love and relationship between people of the same gender it is perversion and self-gratification, literally “idol worship.”

    What’s the difference between the sin of homosexuality and many other sins in the Judeo/Christian world view? Simply this, homosexuality is called “an abomination,” the Hebrew word To’ebah meaning (from one of the possible root words) “to be faulty, be corrupted, be polluted.”

    “Experts” in the Christian world (all the way to the Pope himself) have either given in or lost the evolution/creation debate and now the last last wall of separation between the faiths and the agnostic world, sexual purity (or at least the teaching of it, people have always had a problem sticking to it) has fallen. And be assured a monogamous homosexual marriage is not sexually pure.

    But I’m just an out dated and old fashion hypocrite, so what do I know. Nothing I guess.

  39. London, that’s BS and you know it. The church does much in all of those areas – it can multitask.
    “poverty, slavery, violence, addiction” – show me which of these where you see no church presence?

  40. London says:

    No, MLD I don’t “know it”. I just have a different opinion than yours and so you feel the need to label it as BS for stating my own opinion.
    Try not to be such a jerk just because someone states something differently than you see it.

  41. OK, it’s not BS – you are just wrong – there is a large church presence in all those areas all over the world.

    I can feed the hungry and voice an opinion about homo marriage all at the same time.One does not stop the church from doing the other as you said. Andd the church should do both. Warning others of evil is still serving your neighbor.

  42. Reuben says:

    Agree with London. For the most part, evangelical christianity is so busy being political, and doctrinal, they are good for nothing else.

  43. Steve Wright says:

    I do think there is a distinction to be made, in that nobody actively promotes in the name of Christ, the issues of poverty, slavery, violence and addiction.

    And nobody condemns Christians who speak out against poverty, slavery, violence and addiction.

    Homosexuality is being celebrated by those who profess Christianity, and those who also profess Christianity are being attacked for expressing the contrary view – despite its agreement with Scripture.

    And as a result, we see a push to exclude a pastor like Greg Laurie as unworthy of a prayer meeting solely because of his views about homosexuality.

    Is there a tremendous over emphasis in some pulpits on this one sin. Sure.

    But there is an overemphasis on something like money too in a lot of pulpits, but that does not mean a good church can’t pass an offering plate. 🙂

  44. London says:

    “I do think there is a distinction to be made, in that nobody actively promotes in the name of Christ, the issues of poverty, slavery, violence and addiction.”

    They don’t??

    Are you sure about that? I’m not.

  45. filbertz says:

    who ever said being a follower of Christ would be easy, or that society would always follow the ways of the Church, or believers would be respected and well-treated because of our convictions? It sure wasn’t Jesus. It sure wasn’t the gospel or epistle writers. It wasn’t the early church fathers, or the reformers…

    it was the spoiled misguided american christian who thinks a “godly” nation is our birthright and we are being robbed of it. Perhaps we are so out of touch with biblical thinking that we’ve convinced ourselves we are entitled to the long end of the stick. Jesus told us not to be surprised when the world hates us…and we’re surprised.

  46. Lutheran says:

    And nobody condemns Christians who speak out against poverty, slavery, violence and addiction.

    Really?

    I can recall numerous discussions, right here on good ‘ole PhxP, about helping those in poverty. I got lectured about our wonderful free enterprise system, the virtues of capitalism, etc., ad nauseum. It’s a wonder I didn’t come out of those discussions draped in an American flag. 🙂

  47. Steve Wright says:

    fil, you make a good point @46.

    I guess I would only add that you rightly mention the Biblical warning throughout Scripture and Church History of the WORLD hating those who follow Christ.

    What we are seeing with this particular issue is that those who likewise claim to follow Christ are both the proponents of the sin as well as some of the loudest critics of their brothers and sisters in Christ who dare have the opposing view.

    Isn’t that at least a little surprising?

    I admit I would be quite surprised at any nation that supported someone saying that Jesus Christ alone is Lord, but then persecuted them if they added “and homosexuality is a sin”

    Quite an odd litmus test indeed.

  48. Steve Wright says:

    I can recall numerous discussions, right here on good ‘ole PhxP, about helping those in poverty
    ——————————————————-

    Lutheran,

    Yes, debate about how to best HELP those in poverty – from a political point of view. NOT a claim that Jesus supports poverty and we should actively promote it and anyone who thinks otherwise is an intolerant bigot.

    Although I will say that much of this homosexual focus is politically motivated. The unholy alliance of politics and following Christ once more raising its head. BOTH parties.

  49. Steve Wright says:

    Got to run everyone. I’ll leave with this quote.( Emphasis on ‘faith’)

    “Pastor Laurie’s message is out of step with what the majority of people of faith across this country believe,” said Dr. Sharon Groves, director of HRC’s Religion & Faith Program. “In greater numbers than ever before, people of faith are feeling compelled to speak up and organize for equality – because of their faith.”

    (This said in an effort to have the federal government ban Greg from praying in the National Day of Prayer event. Now, I really am not a huge supporter of such church/state events myself, nor of the inter-faith flavor to them….but the idea that the Feds ban a respected pastor because of this one particular view is rather fascinating.)

  50. Rob Murphy says:

    great quote at 51. The Bible is being marginalized by those who claim to treasure it and this kind of equivocation is being interpreted as advocacy for the sin that Jesus died to save us from. Steve Taylor was a prophet. http://www.lyricsmania.com/whatever_happened_to_sin_lyrics_steve_taylor.html

  51. Tolerance now means conformity.
    Read this article from Carl Trueman a few days ago about a student who drefused to wear a gay rights ribbon.
    http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2013/04/transgression-the-new-conformi.php

    Excerpt:
    They would still regard him as a homophobe. Their approach was, after all, not that of classical liberalism, where one respects the right of another to be wrong; this is that of modern liberalism, where one is free only to conform to the dominant ideology. If the old Puritanism was the fear that somebody somewhere might be enjoying themselves, the new Puritanism is the fear that somebody somewhere might be holding a dissenting opinion.

    Tolerance now means conformity.

  52. Lutheran says:

    ‘Yes, debate about how to best HELP those in poverty – from a political point of view. NOT a claim that Jesus supports poverty and we should actively promote it and anyone who thinks otherwise is an intolerant bigot.’

    Well, duh. Who’d be stupid enough to say Jesus supports poverty? Not even the most bigoted would say that. That’s a complete nobrainer and ridiculous. So what.

    Here’s what I remember: what seemed like endless discussions about who exactly are the “deserving poor,” whether those accepting help from the nasty guvmint are evil freeloaders, etc. Death by a thousand qualifications.

    Let me ask you: when’s the last time you saw an evangelical pastor protesting in front of a multinational corporation against the ways they exploit workers, whether here or abroad?

    (Crickets)

    Didn’t think so. Evangelicals, by and large, have been lovers and supporters of the status quo. If you want to read a couple of chilling books about it, try Jeff Sharlet’s books. It dates back to the 1920s to the fundamentalist-modernist controversy.

    The mainline churches are miles ahead on this one.

  53. Kathy says:

    Steve Wright says: “Yes, debate about how to best HELP those in poverty”

    I got a great idea!

    How about instead of doing a big yearly donation push this year (or four, as was the case in my old church) you do…. get ready for it… dun dun dun…. NOTHING! No fundraiser push this year, no begging for money, no adding an extra envelop to the collection plate. Your Camry is going to have to last you another year. You’ll have to put off getting the Iphone 5 (or is it 6 now)?

    Instead… why don’t you look at all the disappointed faces in your congregation (I know, they’ll be so many) and say, “I know you’ve been saving up ALL year to give during our yearly fundraiser. But this year, instead of getting new fog lights and amplifers, we’re going to do something different! Why don’t you look around, grab a prayer list (we have one?) see your fellow brothers and sisters that are in needs, and help them out for a season! That might mean we have to sacrifice Sunday free coffee and donuts, but it could help someone save their house!”

    It’s not rocket science. Like I said Steve, I don’t care that you’re profiteering off of church. It sounds like you earn every penny of it. But don’t be a blowhard and say that you’re not helping the poor because they can’t be helped.

  54. Crowned1 says:

    Webster’s 2013 Definitions –

    Tolerance (n)

    1. Acceptance of another’s viewpoint at the expense of your own.
    2. Voluntary suppression of gag reflex in unfavorable situations.

  55. Kathy says:

    Lutheran: thank you for your #53.

    Amen.

  56. London says:

    Steve Taylor is still alive. He produced and directed Donald Miller’s Blue Like Jazz movie.

    and Meltdown at Madame Tussauds is his best old song.

  57. Michael says:

    Kathy,

    If you knew the truth about Steve and his church, you would be deeply ashamed of that comment.
    I would love to say more, but that “profiteering” comment toward him was as wrong as anything ever written here.

  58. London says:

    “But don’t be a blowhard and say that you’re not helping the poor because they can’t be helped.”

    He didn’t say that.

  59. Kathy says:

    “Evangelicals, by and large, have been lovers and supporters of the status quo.”

    It’s because their biggest backers have always been the small-time business men, the ones that are usually staunchly Republican, and yes, the ones that feel the biggest pinch when it comes to taxes.

    They’re not going to drive away their golden goose. Even though they (churches) are one of the biggest reapers of being a non-taxable organization. Ask Steve how much his church pays in property tax? Ask him how much his church brings in every year? It’s enough to make any old Republican’s blood boil.

    But they still play the game and sh*t on the poor… because well… the poor still don’t tithe as well.

  60. Kathy says:

    Michael: I’m not going to back down and say that I don’t see church as a huge business. And I’m not going to back down and say that most pastors do it for the money, if forced to do it for free, then most would not do it. I’m not going to back down and say the poor are mistreated at church because they don’t pay the major share of the bills.

    Profiteering may be a harsh word. Maybe you can give me another one?

    But I will say something, I don’t think it’s wrong that Pastors profiteer off of their hard work, and yes, it’s very hard work.

  61. Kathy says:

    Correction: most pastors don’t do it for the money.

  62. Michael says:

    Kathy,

    You have no reason to trust my word.
    That is fine.
    I will tell you that you just slandered someone who has sacrificed more than almost any pastor I know for the sake of his church and yes, those who can’t care for themselves.
    It’s an open forum, but its things like this that make me ashamed of it

  63. I know Steve Wright personally and I support what Michael is saying.

  64. Michael says:

    It’s not just Steve.
    I know a bunch of guys who work another job (or more than one) so they can support their families and take nothing from the church.
    Facts don’t mean much on blogs, though.

  65. MIchael,
    My normative experience growing up was pastors who had to work second jobs to make ends meet. Why, because they were either small churches or the pastor didn’t want to be a burden on poor members.
    People really need to take a reality break and visit more than their foglight churches.

  66. Michael says:

    Derek,

    Well said.

  67. Xenia says:

    Wow, Kathy, you have never been to my church! Good grief, what a bunch of baloney you have written.

  68. Gary says:

    Love Steve Taylor and I miss his music. My faves are Hero and I just Wanna Know. His movie was dumb but it did address a good issue.

  69. Kathy says:

    Well, I don’t know Steve personally, he’s independently wealthy, am I correct? And he didn’t make that money off of ministry but some business deal, am I correct?

    But I also know that he has a moderate size CC in Southern California… and I *believe* he’s raking it in with his church. Am I correct?

    Steve might be the very few who actually pay into the church, if that’s true, I do offer my sincerest apologies. But I will say this… he will be the FIRST pastor I’ve met that had to pay to keep his church going.

  70. Xenia says:

    I think if you would look inside all the small churches in your town you would find underpaid preachers/pastors/priests who are not in it for the money and who love God and love their parishioners. Sure, if you focus on megachurches w/ TV preachers w/ book contracts you will find some self-centered men but these are not the majority of pastors.

    You present yourself as someone who is omniscient, who knows all about all the pastors in the country.

  71. Xenia says:

    So Kathy…. how many pastors have you actually met and queried about their personal finances?

    How many of the pastors of the small churches in your town do you actually know?

  72. Xenia says:

    And sometimes, small churches grow to become large churches because the pastor is doing a good job!

  73. erunner says:

    I don’t understand the anti- fundy/CC mindset. I realize there’s a lot of stuff wrong within CC’s yet at the same time know how much good is also done. People are helped, come to a saving faith, and grow in their faith.

    There are those (and I know some) who look to the government for change and figure they’ll get involved. I’ve seen believers standing with Mormons and fall for the lie they are our brothers and sisters in Christ as they plot politically. I see people hung up on nothing but homosexuality and abortion while seemingly ignoring all other sins.

    Homosexuality is being discussed because it is a gigantic issue in the news right now. Many see it as a Jackie Robinson/Rosa Parks moment. This includes professing believers. So who are the backward minded and bigoted among us? Those pesky Christians. They won’t change their beliefs for an evolving society and stand in the way of progress.

    So when Chris Brousard stated his convictions I knew exactly what would follow. I think that’s worth discussing. And as Michael posted this article I figure that’s what we should do.

    We live in a society that calls good evil and evil good and it’s only going to get worse. When part of that crowd includes professing believers I believe that’s a cause for concern. We need to speak with our children and our grandchildren and explain what’s happening in as wise a way as possible. If they aren’t biblically informed it won’t be long before they fall for the “loving and accepting” lie. We should also take the opportunities as they present themselves to seek to educate believers who are confused by the topic.

    I just don’t see why we beat each other up over this.

  74. London says:

    “But I will say this… he will be the FIRST pastor I’ve met that had to pay to keep his church going.”

    You apparently need to get out more.

  75. Kathy says:

    Well… opinions are like the things we go to the toilet for.. unfortunately everyone has them.

    I must be the unluckiest person in the world that I haven’t run into any of these humble, poverty-welcoming churches.

    I’ve sure had my fill of being swindled in every church I’ve ever attended. To which I may add, I’ve generously given. (except for my local Calvary Chapel, I never felt I was swindled there).

  76. erunner says:

    There are a lot of back stories here people aren’t aware of and that speaks to the humility of those who have stories to tell. God bless them.

  77. Xenia says:

    We are in Holy Week at my parish. The priest and his wife (she’s the choir director) will preside over 30 hours of church services this week. It is exhausting. And you know what he’s doing on Pascha (Easter), instead of flopping into bed or escaping on a vacation? He has invited the entire parish to his house for a Pascha celebration, a big meal for us all which he will pay for himself. They do this for Christmas, too. These are very self-less people.

  78. Kathy,
    What were the attendance sizes of these churches you have attended?

  79. Xenia says:

    I must be the unluckiest person in the world that I haven’t run into any of these humble, poverty-welcoming churches.<<<

    Maybe you are looking in all the wrong places.

  80. Kathy says:

    Xenia: I could write a book on how I’ve been swindled at church.

    I’m sure I could collect hundreds, maybe thousands of other witnesses testifying of the same of the tactics that I complain so loudly about.

    For starters, read Alex’s blog…. actually you’ll see a post made by dummy-old me, sticking up for my old pastor, saying, “there’s no way he owns a Porshe Boxster! He doesn’t even take healthcare!” While indeed there’s other, such as the DMV, that have records showing indeed he does own one, while saying all that pious crap in the pulpit.

    And yes, this is the same church that uses heavy-handed tactics to donate to the church. Actually, I will say you’re downright not welcomed there if you don’t tithe or vote Republican. And I KNOW that you’ll be rudely turned away if you ask for any type of help or donation.

    But hey, the people keep giving.. because they’re not to judge… right?

  81. Kathy says:

    You can read all about Raul Ries and CC Golden Springs right here

    http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?page_id=717

    Comment 271-272, written Oct. 12, 2012… and I truly believed that, till I read Alex’s post.

    And yes, I’ve generously given to the Raul-Ries-Omega-Watch fund.

    You can read my Yelp review about being rudely treated for not tithing one Sunday. And another lady’s review about being rudely treated for not voting Republican.

    http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=OJ7jwMphk6oTi8khHEtyjQ

  82. Kathy, where did you get that Steve W is independently wealthy?? He is a working stiff like the rest of us.

  83. Kathy says:

    I thought I read it here, something about owning a business and he sold it for a lot of money?

  84. Michael says:

    Kathy,

    Since we’re creating a cartoon character named “Steve Wright” lets finish up.
    First, he’s a “profiteer”.
    Now, he’s “independently wealthy”.
    Let’s add that he’s a 300 pound Episcopalian dwarf just to make it all work together…

  85. Kathy says:

    Michael: why don’t you let Steve Wright speak for himself?

    I added the “am I correct” because it was all hearsay. I never presented it as fact.

    And my #82 is in moderation, it has links that back up what my #81 says.

  86. Are 2 witnesses, Michael and MLD, not enough for you? Kathy, time to swallow pride and admit you may have overspoken. Steve probably isnt even on here right now.

  87. Michael says:

    “Michael: why don’t you let Steve Wright speak for himself?”

    Because people like Steve do their good works in private and loathe the kind of defense I’m making for him.
    I’m sick and tired of someone who is living a sacrificial life being shot at by people who have no clue what they are saying and about whom they are saying it.

    I’ll say it again…if you had the facts on the table you would be ashamed of this conversation.

    That speaks better of you than some…

  88. Frosted Flake says:

    I recently attended the funeral of a man who invented, patented, and widely distributed a simple piece of fishing tackle. He loved Jesus deeply. He shouldn’t make money because he was a believer? Men and women who pioneer churches by following a vision and laboring in their communities for years have my respect and a few of my dollars.

  89. Michael says:

    Kathy,
    “I added the “am I correct” because it was all hearsay.”

    How much would you enjoy a discussion of your own life on a public blog based on hearsay…and even when those who know you come to your defense, the nonsense continues?

  90. Hey FF,
    I was thinking in the same way yesterday, and this is not a defense of pastor’s making huge salaries for those who will misrepresent. Why do we think it is fine for ME to be reimbursed for time and money, but not a pastor? This all goes back to the “fairness” culture that believes anyone making money is making it off of someone else. This is such a western culture conversation
    Sometimes, I wish I was a chinese christian, so I could escape conversations that revolve around American christian strangeness.
    Persecution, yes. But I bet they don’t have conversations like this.

  91. Michael says:

    Derek,

    That was an excellent point…

  92. Kathy says:

    Firstly, the comments are getting so inane, I’m wondering if you just want the comment count to go up…

    1. What are the facts? Why don’t you put them out there so I can be ashamed? Does Steve Wright work for free? Then he’s profiteering. That’s what I meant, he’s making money off his church. I never said it was a bad thing. I think it’s sad when Pastors fail to see the poor because it gets in the way of their profits and their business model.

    2. I never said Pastors should work for free. But don’t give me this baloney that they’re all hard-working, humble people who have the sheep’s best interest in mind. What a bunch of false propaganda. You should apply to be CC new marketing director.

    I thought this blog and Alex’s blog did exactly the opposite… expose the propaganda and expose churches that are profiteering off of dumb people (which I will say, I was one)!

    3. Steve Wright is a big boy (and that’ not an insult). I’m picking on him because he’s part of a Movement where ambivalence to the poor is common and encouraged. This is first-hand knowledge, not to mention their attitude has been seen on this blog (I called out Shawn Sells too) and it can be seen a hundred-fold on Alex’s blog. If this is going to turn into a Steve Wright fan-club, I’m out. Not that I don’t like Steve, we can be best facebook friends, but I have deep-seated problems with the movement he so staunchly defends.

    There. I’m out. I’m going to enjoy the Hawks/Pacers game for the rest of the night. I hardly need to be writing multi-paragraph comments on a blog.

  93. Michael,
    The more I think about the persecuted church and read about them, the more I realize what a strange church culture we live in. The western church has a lot of learning to do and a lot to be repented of.

  94. Michael says:

    Because the facts are none of your business, nor are they public knowledge, that’s why.

    I know many CC guys…and Baptist guys…and Nazarene guys… and many other denoms…who barely make it, who pastor out of love for Christ and love for their flock.

    I was ripping the bad guys in CC long before Alex…and I’ve paid one hell of a cost to do so.

    We’re working on outing another one as we speak.

    There are some very, very bad men in that movement…and some damn good ones, too.

    If the only kind of blog you want to participate in only gives the bad side and calls the good evil…then don’t let the door hit you where the dog bit you.

    I’ll answer to God for my words…

  95. Michael says:

    Shaun Sells is a hell of a good man too.
    Probably not to your specifications, but he’s a lot better man than I am.

  96. Frosted Flake says:

    Angry women are a mystery. Kind of like angry birds but different. Some pastor with a pay check did something really bad and someone has to pay. That plays into a well known theme around here.

  97. Frosted Flake says:

    Michael,
    You defend your purpose for this blog well and with considerable restraint.

  98. Michael says:

    Thanks Frosted one…
    I’m sick as a dog and pretty much lacking in patience and grace at the moment, though.

  99. Xenia says:

    I’ve attended churches for sixty years and I have never encountered the kind of pastor Kathy is talking about. I have never been “swindled.” Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Orthoodox- never met a money grabber. Even the one Baptist pastor I had when I was a teenager who I didn’t particularly like, he came to the house at 2 in the morning to sit with us when my father unexpectedly died.

    And “profiteering….” I don’t that word means what you think it means.

    profiteer (ˌprɒfɪˈtɪə)

    — n
    1. a person who makes excessive profits, esp by charging exorbitant prices for goods in short supply

    — vb
    2. ( intr ) to make excessive profits

    profi’teering

    — n

  100. brian says:

    Wow the last two subjects. First I am a post modernist for the most part. I “support” the right of two people of what ever orientation to have a “recognized” / legal union. I also understand that will change the “definition” of marriage as understood for much of literature and in some sense legal systems in the west. Pastors / Christians / Muslims / who ever should have the right to say it is sin according to their faith communities beliefs. My view is not representative of the historic Christian faith and contradicts the Bible in many explicit texts and “positive” passages in the Bible. Jesus did speak about homosexuality in several text (yes the red letters) and spoke of a creative order. I think Dr. White and others are correct in their views concerning the bible and that is talks much more about a Creative order and what is a “family” father mother children. That has never happened in total in the entire history of humanity but that is a different post.

    Of the many people I know who are gay most of them are already in a committed relationship and have been for a long time. Some do not want to be part of the uproar and hate the idea of forcing others to submit to their world view (I dont know how to write like you folks sorry about the awful way of stating it.). But my view puts me well outside biblical orthodoxy, which is one reason I do not go to join a local fellowship, it would be dishonest and put the pastor in the position of most likely having to ask me to leave. I refuse to do that just to prove my point. I actually dont have a point. Personally I live a celibate lifestyle, hold to a very almost “prudish” personal “morals”. I believe it is important to be honest when expressing one’s view and to not force the text of the bible or of a faith community to comply with my world view.

  101. Bob says:

    Kathy:

    Pastors or any one in the ministry should get paid to do work. Teaching the words of the Lord should always be given freely, but the Deut 25 reference used by Paul twice (don’t muzzle the oxen while they are threshing) is a reference to eating while threshing the food for people and teachers, like oxen, need to eat.

    This subject reminds me of one of the biggest sinners in the A of G history the crying piano player, Jimmy Swaggart. It was well known within the Assemblies that his fall caused an immediate financial loss for many ministries within the Organization. You see when Jimmy took an offering for a cause it went to the cause, not his pocket like another Southern TV prayer club was known to do.

    Jimmy played great music, could cry at the drop of the right note and was honest to a ‘T’ with his finances, but couldn’t keep his eyes off the wrong woman. Not unlike so many of us.

    Also is there anything wrong with an independently wealthy person (not taken from the parishioners) teaching, preaching or becoming a pastor? Nope, just check out one of the early men of the Faith, St. Nick.

    PS. Jimmy S got rich as a musician/singer who happened to preach and did I mention the ability to cry…

    Steve:

    Did you ever think it was time to Matthew 18 Calvary Chapel and drop your affiliation? Maybe a little measure for measure at the corporate level would help make a change.

  102. Kathy is the prototypical “yelp” writer. She is one who give nothing og her time, talents or treasures to the church and complains up a storm that she is not getting what is due her.

    While she is moaning and groaning at her computer, Steve W is spending the evening teaching and caring for his congregation. If I had to admire one over the other, guess who it might be?

  103. Xenia says:

    An example of “profiteering” was when a diner in downtown Monterey charged exorbitant prices after the 1989 earthquake when there was no electricity for days and they (apparently) had a generator.

    Earning a living wage is not profiteering.

  104. Michael says:

    brian,

    You are welcome at my church anytime…your doctrine is off, but your heart isn’t.

  105. Michael says:

    Bob,

    If you think Chuck Smith would give a rats ass if Steve or anyone else left, you’re sadly mistaken.
    There is no hierarchy here…there’s Chuck and a bunch of fiercely independent pastors.
    Chuck ain’t changing…so we celebrate the good men, expose the bad ones, and hope things are better after we’re done.

  106. filbertz says:

    I’ve met a couple pastors who, in my jaded opinion, weren’t worth their salt. On the other hand, I teach and have taught with teachers who weren’t worth a fart either. There are many in my community who would be really happy if none of the teachers got paid a dime, but would expect us to show up and give our blood and guts anyway…for the good of the kids, of course. There is no pleasing them, and since teachers are public employees, we are fair game and it’s always open season. I don’t know a single teacher who could afford to work for free. I don’t know a single pastor who could do it either. I do know some bi-vocational pastors who do the ministry part for token payment or whatever the local group can afford that month. These guys are unsung heroes, but that doesn’t mean all guys in ministry should follow suit.

  107. Michael says:

    Fil,

    Amen…well said.

  108. Dude says:

    Romans 1:18-32 gives a very accurate description of the present condition of America. God is giving them over…..unless America repents and soon , I dont see a bright future for America.

  109. Bob says:

    Michael I’m sure your right about Chuck. Sad, considering that flies in the face of the very scriptures he “teaches simply.”

  110. filbertz says:

    Dude,
    three things I ask you to consider in view of your comment.
    1. there is no mention of a nation or national entity in the passage, only human-kind. Our nation cannot corporately repent, its citizens can.
    2. the passage clearly states three times God gave them up–past tense. It is not a standing threat hanging over anyone’s head if they don’t repent.
    3. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven just as his other attributes were–full disclosure is the intent of the passage. Despite the full disclosure of God, mankind has still chosen to ignore and defy Him. That is Paul’s point–humankind is rebellious against God and deserves his punishment. But Romans doesn’t end there, nor does the redemptive story. The wrath of God was poured out on His Son that we might be forgiven and have life.
    …not looking to pick a fight, but to look at it from a different angle.

  111. Kathy says:

    Oh dear… am I banned yet?

    Ok, OKC Thunder lost… I’m ready to R-R-R-R-RUM-BAAAAAAL!
    Just kidding.

    Wow. If Beckett loses this game, the Dodgers suck. No wonder MLD is so cranky.

    MLD you wrote: “Kathy is the prototypical “yelp” writer. She is one who give nothing og her time, talents or treasures to the church and complains up a storm that she is not getting what is due her.”

    I could shame you to tears but I won’t. Obviously you didn’t read my review.

    I can go on and on about corrupt ministries, people abusing, people complaining. Then we can get into hour long conversations about how to serve the wine and crackers, do we sprinkle or douse, was there a race before Adam and Eve. You know, the really important stuff.

    OR I can ask this…. did John Duncan get any replies for his request for help with his wife? Since this blog is filled with such caring, devote humble people, whose only desire is to seek the Lord, I would think 6 weeks out of their life would be nothing.

    951 area code, MLD, he’s right in your neighborhood.

    So long PxP. May your battles with the windmills ever be in your favor.

  112. Kathy,
    I did indeed read your yelp page. You complain here because the paid staff let’s you down – and over at yelp you complained because the unpaid staff let you down.

    The horror that the guy at the church coffee shop did not put your change into your hand!!

  113. covered says:

    Kathy, I don’t understand one of your comments on yelp. You said in one paragraph that you attended Raul’s church for about a decade and then you said that he’s hard to listen to over 30 mins. Why did you wait so long to leave? I don’t want a fight, I’m just curious.

  114. Michael says:

    “Since this blog is filled with such caring, devote humble people, whose only desire is to seek the Lord, I would think 6 weeks out of their life would be nothing.”

    That’s crazy and really unfair.

    Most of us would help John and many of us pray for him.
    We don’t live in that area.
    I don’t know many people who could leave work and family for an extended time to stay at someone else’s house.
    I couldn’t…no matter how much I wanted to.
    People have responsibilities at home and work that they can’t shuffle to anyone else.
    I have a lot of folks here in the area and I would be hard pressed to find people able to do that if I needed it.
    As a matter of fact, I think it would be impossible.
    It appears that he has received enough financial help to pay for the care he needs.
    I hope that is the case.

  115. brian says:

    This is really interesting, now atheist will dismiss Dr. Collins’ “testimony” as a scientist who has delusions but would not wish an real ill will to him. There are evangelicals that hate this man with an eternal God ordained passion. He is a tool of Satan, a stealth shill of the scientific conspiracy looking to lead to the anti Christ and complete rebellion of God. I always found that rather funny but I am sure it is just me.

    http://youtu.be/Ml0FqyFYfrU

  116. brian says:

    PS Dr. Collins lead some wonderful teams that could possibly cure many dozens if not hundreds of diseases and help many who suffer horrible symptoms and maybe cure many horrid melodies. I know this has absolutely no meaning and this guy is toast when he gets to the other side. He supports biologos and holds to the validity of the ToE. I listened to his testimony and was moved, I dont hold to the same reason for maintaining my faith, my main reason is to see those dealt a real bad hand here on earth will find restoration in eternity. Since we all deserve eternal hell from conception to death in this life that is not a real good position to hold. If I had a choice I would sow my seeds with Dr. Collins, but that is just me.

  117. I love the idea promoted by London and Reuben that my church must not be helping the poor because I notice that everyone in the world is talking about homosexuality.

    Go over to the Tings I think thread, read my #18, and then try to imagine what my Evangelical, Southern Baptist, Semi-Fundy church actually looks like.

    Then come back and tell me how my church is too focused on gay issues to help anybody.

    You guys are funny. Arrogant? Of course, but funny none the less.

  118. London says:

    Josh,
    Back off. No where in what I said did I ever mention let alone think if you or your little church. Quit personalizing stuff that’s not about you.

  119. I’m sorry London, I assumed when you quoted me in your #37 that you were actually responding to that which you had quoted.

    Since you apparently weren’t commenting on the very thing you quoted….nevermind.

    Forgive me for reading things in the order they are written.

  120. London says:

    Josh,
    No worries. I see how that came across since I did in fact paste part of your comment.
    I was just using it as a launching place for the thought I had. It wasn’t about you or your church, just a general observation.
    Sorry for the confusion.

    Take care.

  121. No biggie London. Nothing for me to be so combative about anyway. I apologize for my itchy trigger finger around here sometimes.:)

  122. Muff Potter says:

    Michael,
    Again, as an outsider (let’s just say that I’m a Deist who believes in the divinity of Jesus), why is homosexuality such a focal point in conservative evangelicalism? I’ve noticed that it seems to take center stage, almost to the exclusion of other considerations, such as the destruction of the middle class in America by unbridled corporate power and the lawmakers they own.

  123. Muff, do you see that homosexuality has taken center stage in places other than Christianity?

    Like, ESPN, for instance?

  124. Nonnie says:

    Honestly, I believe the only reason we have been discussing this issue here is because it is in the news constantly. Turn on the TV or radio and every news programs is discussing it (from their point of view), all the sit coms are proclaiming it. Are we (as Christians) not allowed to discuss it?
    Know this, I do not hate LGBTs. I wish for them what I wish for my family, friends, neighbours, my co-workers,…God’s very best.
    I don’t believe a homosexual is any more a sinner than I am. I think however, the line has been drawn that we are not allowed to say homosexuality is “sin.” Even when we say, WE TOO are sinners in need of grace. I guess that is where we differ. This issue is NOT my passion, I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it and I am not a hater, I am not homophobic, I am not intolerant. I am a sinner saved by grace, and like my Lord, I would that all would come to Jesus.

  125. Muff Potter says:

    Josh,
    I don’t know much about ESPN, cuz’ I don’t do sports. And no I’m not gay. I’m an over 60 heterosexual Native American married to the same woman for 33 yrs. I will say this though on the media flap over the ball player who came out of the closet, I couldn’t care less about what a person’s sexual orientation is, I’m far more concerned with the content of their character.

  126. @ 129 – About the guy who came out…I don’t care at all. Didn’t know him before, and he’s probably out of the league now, from what i hear, so I’ don’t know much about him. However, there has been talk of him on every media outlet I go to, so I’ve commented.

    Now, you mentioned his character. Do you not think sexual morality is a part of a person’s character?

  127. And congrats on your marriage! That is wonderful, and very rare in this time. I’ve been married for 16 years 🙂

  128. Nonnie’s #127
    Another Amen here!

  129. erunner says:

    I posted this on Alex’s blog and thought it worthwhile (in my mind) to post it here as well.

    It’s been clear for some time there are huge issues between those from this blog and those who participate at the Phoenix Preacher.

    I have been a part of the PP longer than most although my participation isn’t what it used to be. I’ve been there through a lot of big stories and many people who have come and gone. I know and have met many who have or are still frequenting that blog. I say that because meeting someone you think you know via a blog can be quite illuminating.

    I was initially a CC defender as I couldn’t fathom there being any problems as my experiences had been so positive. I no longer attend a CC and my views have changed a lot as I have learned a lot and also experienced things that caused me to leave CC.

    Although there are problems throughout the movement I also know there are good men there who have hearts for God and His people. People can argue till the cows come home about why they remain with CC but the bottom line is it won’t change things. And no matter how much things change for the better there will always be some who still won’t be satisfied.

    There are salty people on the PP just are there are here. I don’t see that ever changing. Anonymity on a blog creates many outspoken people and also allows people who are known to present themselves differently online as opposed to how they express themselves away from the computer.

    I have told Alex there are godly people here who are willing to walk with him as he is quite obviously struggling with things. I hope his disappointment with people and the frustration he must feel doesn’t lead him away from the faith. It’s been difficult reading some of what he has posted and I agree it’s good that doesn’t appear here.

    At the end of the day we are brothers and sisters in Christ and I hope all of us strive to represent Him as best as we can. That doesn’t mean disagreements as they are unavoidable. But we can control how we disagree. I hope this blog is used by God to help the hurting and to build up those who drop by.

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