Loose Ends

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97 Responses

  1. Papias says:

    Excellent questions!

    I do think that Christians have a greater responsibiity to be careful of the truth than others. In practice, that means that we walk the middle between either extreme view. We refrain from flaming the opposition. We play the peacemaker. We let our views be known by being involved in a rational discussion.

    Obama is not the antichrist, and neither is Romney.
    Romney is a politico, and so is Obama.
    If anyone thinks that either choice is going to somehow radically change America, then I disagree.

  2. Em says:

    “I had a very disturbing conversation with a very intelligent person yesterday.” either she was not very intelligent or she thought that Michael wasn’t:
    “intelligence |inˈtelijəns|
    noun
    1 the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills”

    1- Christians are all about the Truth
    2- “trust” for factual information? isn’t it all a matter of degree; gathering information and sorting it? the best information comes from someone who doesn’t know you’re listening

    “If anyone thinks that either choice is going to somehow radically change America, then I disagree.” but taken as a group, over the years the politicians sure have radically changed America – then again, maybe not … maybe they just reflect how America has changed – dunno

  3. Kevin H says:

    As Christians, we claim to have and represent the Truth so I believe the onus is on us to deal in truth as much as we can on all other issues and items in life. When it comes to politics, finding out the exact truth on every issue and detail can be quite difficult, if not outright impossible. However, I think we need to take a little due diligence in trying to become a little more informed on things before we just automatically believe and pass on everything we hear and read.

    I think we all have a baloney detector to some degree and some of the things out there should come across as suspicious. If we then take a little more time to find out about them, we may often find them to be on quite shaky grounds and not best to believed as gospel truth, if to be believed at all. (On some things we may find some real meat to them and likely to be true.)

    The problem I see is that so many on both the left and right have conditioned themselves to automatically believe any negative news about the “enemy”, that they are no longer sensitive to their baloney detector. They go to their favorite source or site on either the left or right and just take it all in with no filter whatsoever.

    As to where we can go to regularly get reliable and trustworthy news and info without a significant bias, that is a tougher one to answer. At the very least, I will often go to snopes.com to flesh out a lot of the rumors and conspiracy theory sounding stuff that is out there. They may not be perfect, but they seem to usually give an honest attempt in finding out this stuff and giving an educated opinion on it.

  4. Babylon's Dread says:

    I join you in moaning over these idiotic things that are believed by gullible Christians. Apparently being a believer means you believe everything. I trust news sources that are not known to be rooted in fear and anger. I trust news sources that represent varying points of view…they have inner debate among their own constituents that is credible.

    I put a lot of stock in the smell test… but that is because I think I can smell a skunk. No get rich quick schemes, no conspiracy theories, no unsourced claims.

    The Biblical test of two witnesses is pretty good. Jesus used it often.

    I remain intrigued that people believe Obama to be closet (which means non practicing) Muslim which they fear but Romney is a practicing Mormon and they do not fear it.

    I am baffled by the mythology that voting republican will stop abortion… IT NEVER WILL

    As for chips … please give me the first one that really works… I am pretty sure that salvation is not related to microchip technology.

    So let me just say that I WILL NOT TRUST anyone who believes 1-5 of your list, #6 is true of everyone.

    But I do believe that …. and this is a random throw in based on my facebook question… I do believe that liberalism does more to create poverty than wealth… and liberal policies actually tend to incentivize the increase of poverty… but I will allow that there are exceptions.

  5. Xenia says:

    The other day I had a conversation with a self-defined Christian who was telling me about all the wars Obama started. I pointed out that it was the previous administration that got us into those wars and this person proceeded to call me “bonehead” and several other bad names. Like Michael, I am more concerned at the level of ignorance I am seeing than I am of the election of either R or O.

    Stand by for obligatory protests that
    A. It’s always been this way
    B. the other side does it, too

    So what.

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    People are very prone to believe lies against those they are predisposed to reject.

  7. Xenia says:

    And you would not be very surprised to learn that a very large percentage of Americans have never heard of the Mexican-American War and will call you names if you try to explain that bit of US history to them. And don’t get me started on the Jefferson Bible, which modern liberals wrote to disparage that great evangelical, Thomas Jefferson….

  8. Babylon's Dread says:

    Yes TJ was a great evangelist…

  9. LOL – the Dems make up all these stories about Obama themselves. It is a ploy that goes back to Nixon’s dirty tricks. They then use them to show how unhinged the other party is.

    Now, talk about gullible christians

  10. “I am baffled by the mythology that voting republican will stop abortion… IT NEVER WILL”

    I have been touting this for the past week – no change in abortion as both Ryan and Romney have denied that they have any plan to reverse Roe.

    They have an identical plan to Obama’s concerning abortion.

  11. Papias says:

    “Info Wars”

    Just kidding. 😉

    I actually read a peice over there yesterday about the potential for riots if Obama is not reelected. As concerning as that story was, the comments section was even worse.

    Maybe its a lot of bravery behind the keyboard…

  12. Paps,
    I heard on the news this morning – channel 5 local – that liberal groups are planning riots if Romney is elected. The bigger story I liked was the once again threat by Hollywood elites, to leave the US if Romney is elected.

    Talk about a GOP get out the vote motivator – I think I may be in. 😉

  13. David says:

    I usually listen to the left wing radio and then believe the opposite…

  14. Em says:

    “Apparently being a believer means you believe everything…” 🙂 that is what the world of academia thinks of “us” Believers and sadly we may be a bit afraid to try being analytical for ourselves – my bent is to replace thinking with skepticism – the lazy person’s way out

  15. Em says:

    facts are neat? amen, but the ability to make sense of them isn’t always easy

  16. Em says:

    the one compromise that we are willing to make as pro-life people is birth control by contraception … if life begins at conception, there goes the pill, the IUD, and maybe some others? dunno, not up to date on procedures … we do have a problem as i see it and i’m not equipped to answer it

  17. Lutheran says:

    ‘Apparently being a believer means you believe everything.’

    “The object of an open mind is to eventually shut it on something.”

    G.K. Chesterton

  18. Reuben says:

    I only trust Jackie Alnor for facts. 😛

  19. Ixtlan says:

    @ 7
    oh you mean that war where we ended up taking most of the Western US from Mexico? If we are gonna talk injustice, let’s talk about the plight of the Lakotah people, but then again, we’ll need to mention the Crow, Arikara and other tribes that were a part of that messy period of history in the Northern Plains.

  20. Well I know where you can go to get truth on the political scene. I heard a commercial yesterday that after the CCCM Men’s Conference next week, everyone is invited to come to CCCM that evening – bring your ballots and they will help you to fill them out biblically.

  21. Ixtlan says:

    @21 seriously? on KWVE?

  22. BrianD says:

    If you’re going to get ‘unbiased’ news, you almost have to go to the BBC.

  23. Dave Rolph says:

    I would never trust anyone who thinks they should be president.

  24. I watch Aljazeera – they don’t seem to have a bias, and their reporters don’t get all excited.

  25. I give candidates the lip test. If their lips are moving, they are lying. On the other hand, if their lips aren’t moving, it’s just because they are just thinking up the next lie.

  26. well … all this commentary on political hocus pocus going on here today is beneath you all … that said, does anyone know if there is any significance to the fact that we vote for our President in the years that have an extra day?
    what if there was a law that nothing political could be mentioned outside of … say … the month of February? and only in the years the month has the extra day … something that carried a death penalty for political speak outside of a designated field of play? …. just sayin …

  27. Em says:

    ‘I would never trust anyone who thinks they should be president.” and, especially not the ones who say so … 😆

  28. BrianD says:

    Al Jazeera is an interesting choice, but not a bad one.

    Every time Al Jazeera is mentioned though I still hear in the back of my mind the Bush administration’s constant portrayal of it as the terrorist mouthpiece.

  29. Reuben says:

    Al Jazerra and BBC are great news agencies.

    However, Rush Limbaugh has talent on loan from god.

    😛

  30. jlo says:

    @21 I’m too old to play Simon Says.

  31. DavidH says:

    Multiple sources for news! BBC is a good start. One needs to know the bias of each news source. CNN is to the left. FOX is on the right. And then, there’s a whole truck load of loonys on each extreme.

    I’ve been so inundated with whacky theories about Obama that I stopped listening. I cannot find rational discourse from the folks I know anymore. I’m astounded by the fear that is being generated this election cycle.

    I wonder if the “anti intellectualism” of American Christianity is coming home to roost. I’m not afraid because I know what I believe and can think about it.

    Just a few thoughts. David

  32. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    I’m not voiting as I don’t have a Horse in this race but I think both sides, Lib & Con are both pawns in the bigger picture

  33. jlo says:

    If the only thing we were voting for was President, I would be tempted to sit this one out. However, I’m more concerned with the City, County, and State propsitions on the ballet.

  34. Kevin H says:

    So Reuben recommends Al Jazerra, BBC, Rush Limbaugh, and Jackie Alnor. Quite a mix there. 🙂

  35. Reuben says:

    Seriously, BBC is good stuff. Al Jazerra, what of them I have seen, good stuff.

    But Lighthouse Trails is the only reputable news agency. Jackie approved. 😛

  36. DavidH,
    Well you know that Romney was at Billy’s house last week – I’ll bet he snuck into BG’s study and erased mormonism out of the book. 😉

  37. DavidH says:

    MLD. We can only hope 🙂

  38. jlo says:

    All this talk of politics, made me take a look at my formar church’s website, they are showing tonights debate in the sancuary, complete with popcorn. 🙁

  39. PP Vet says:

    Usually, with a lot of work, it is possible with the Internet to ferret out the truth of a matter.

    I remember when the Lewinsky tapes came out I was able to figure out what kind of person Bill Clinton was. Oddly enough, reading the transcriptions of those tapes, I found out that he was not the monster that my right-wing friends had portrayed. Creep, manchild, pervert, sure, maybe. But no evil mastermind, not by a long shot. That was my falling out with the doctrinaire right.

    Now, I trust Rick Joyner. As he famously said, The eagle needs both wings.

  40. Reuben says:

    Jlo, that makes me sick to my stomach to even think about.

  41. jlo – terrible – I hate popcorn!

  42. jlo says:

    i know huh, the kernals always get stuck in my teeth. 😀

  43. jlo says:

    it gets worse:
    This Sunday they are having a voter registration drive in the court yard.
    They did a screening of the Obama 2016 complete with an in interview of dinesh d’sousa
    Sunday 10/7 Wayne Grudem taught on Moral and Spiritual issues in the election
    Wednesday 10/10 Politics: why traditional marriage matters
    Wednesday 9/26 Politics: why Israel matters
    Wednesday 9/19 Politics: why should the Christian care

    These are the titles of the message taken directly from their website. I think instead of calling themselves a church they should just put a sign out front that says, Republican Headquarters.

  44. jlo says:

    i should show up on Sunday and registar as a Democrate.

  45. London says:

    Everyday I teach new folks how to work at an election site. Taught about 500 of them so far. Every day we talk about how they are part of the democracy people have died to establish, defend and protect.
    How in the world any American could “sit out” an election for the president, congress, or senator of their choice while people in other nations literally are still dying to have a vote at all is beyond my comprehension.

  46. DavidH says:

    “I should show up on Sunday and registar as a Democrat.”

    Try “Decline to State.” That really mixes them up, as well.

  47. BrianD says:

    jlo, do some shopping for that special Sunday outfit:

    http://www.democraticstuff.com/

  48. Jtk says:

    I saw 2016 and it did NOTHING to sway me in the least either way. I saw a fascinating biography in it.

    Can anyone tell me who to vote for and why, ’cause I doubt I can vote for either Obama or Romney…or the pot smoker.

  49. Michael says:

    So…according to the group meeting to tell you how to vote at CCCM Christian = Republican and a “Christian worldview” has nothing to say about poverty, oppression,the immigrant, or the environment.
    The Bible on the other hand says much about those subjects.
    How do you have a Christian worldview without using the Bible?
    Just wondering…

  50. Em says:

    “ …..a reference to Mormonism as a cult was scrubbed from the website of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.
    …..
    Our primary focus at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association has always been promoting the Gospel of Jesus Christ,” Ken Barun, chief of staff for the association, told CNN in a statement. “We removed the information from the website because we do not wish to participate in a theological debate about something that has become politicized during this campaign……”

    that spins … any way you want

  51. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    This why I stopped listening to Frank Pastore a long time ago. It’s become a Republican cheer fest on there with very little discussion about our Lord and Savior.

  52. Em says:

    source above – should have noted was CNN’s news website this am

    either they will join “us” – i pray that they do – or we will join them

  53. Lutheran says:

    ‘How do you have a Christian worldview without using the Bible?’

    Good question, Michael.

    We need to be Bereans and check everything past Scripture — including the views of those who would use the Bible as a pretext for their OWN worldview, not necessarily that of the Word of God. We need to let the Word speak to us afresh.

    That’s another reason we need to know church history. Those who don’t know (church) history are condemned to repeat it, to paraphrase someone famous.

  54. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “Get the Christian away from Christ, away from the true Word of God and keep them busy and misguided. The results of deception are: a useless and not so powerful Christian.”

    Quoted this from a christian web site, couldn’t have said it better myself

  55. Em says:

    condemned to repeat history … lately i’ve been thinking about what i learned when doing some recent book research … it appears that the biggest contribution to the 19th century masses of folk that pulled away from what were then State churches north of the English Channel (Anglican, Lutheran, likely Presbyterian and, i suppose Roman Catholic and Orthodox, too) was a reaction to being starving, landless and scorned by the prosperous and privileged … the upper classes, who for all practical purposes owned those churches had very little charity, to say the least … many of those starving outcasts landed here before Ellis Island and established their own worship houses and creeds … perhaps, the result was a bit scattered and theologically unorthodox, but for those with faith, it was genuine … and that cycled until now we see a new “prosperity gospel,” that is come one, come all … and the somewhat humbled old, historic keepers of the Faith are drawing into their fold the sons and daughters of the people their forefathers marginalized long years back … turning and turning, overturning and sifting …

  56. B.B.G says:

    The only one we can trust is Jesus .As a follower of Christ I refuse to be a subdivision of the Republican party.G-Ds righteousness can’t be legislated…..hearts and minds have to be changed and transformed.

    P.S I don’t thrust either party anymore .

  57. Lutheran says:

    For all you N.T. Wright fans and everyone else, I found this from Chaplain Mike who now runs the Internet Monk site. This is the Apostles Creed from a “King Jesus” POV. I like it a lot.

    “I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the One who redeemed Israel from slavery and made her his holy nation.

    I believe in Jesus the promised Messiah of Israel, God’s only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the virgin Mary. After he was baptized by John and tested in the wilderness, he went about all Judea and Galilee proclaiming the Kingdom of God and doing good.

    He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, where he is seated at the right hand of the Father. From there he poured out the promised Holy Spirit that the world may know he is Lord of all. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting in a new heavens and new earth, where righteousness dwells. Amen.

    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/how-i-think-the-creed

  58. Lutheran,
    It will fall on deaf ears – all the evangelicals are screaming – Creed! we have no Creed but the Bible!!! 🙂

  59. A Believer says:

    MLD,
    I love the way you speak in broad generalities as though they are absolutes. Perhaps you could learn to use the word “many” instead of “all”.

  60. Lutheran says:

    MLD,

    Actually, I think the folks you’re talking about are in the minority. There are a lot of smart evangelicals out there. Ever read Christianity Today? On some issues, they’re ahead of us Lutherans.

  61. AB,
    But id I said many, then I would have to eliminate the 🙂

  62. Lutheran,
    To tell the truth, I have not read CT since the late 80s early 90s when the mag turned into all fluff pieces and advertisements.

  63. Lutheran says:

    MLD,

    We all know you love to needle…

    But seriously, when you stereotype a group, you commit what in logic is called the “Brushfire Fallacy.” That’s assuming that everyone in a group thinks and sees the same.

    CT is a great magazine. There’s still plenty of good stuff in there. You should pick one up some time. Or Christian History.

  64. Lutheran,
    You mean like when you say Republicans / Conservatives believe…. – that kind of Brushfire fallacy?? 😉

  65. From now on, when I say “all evangelicals” or I just say “evangelicals”, please understand what I really mean is 4 out of 5 think this way. 🙂

  66. A Believer says:

    Thank you for your 20% generosity.

  67. Babylon's Dread says:

    As a neopentecostal/charismatic … I subscribe to 63

  68. Lutheran says:

    MLD,

    If the Brushfire Fallacy were true, then someone would think all Lutherans were just like you.

    Wow.

    🙂

  69. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    MLD Said:

    “Lutheran,
    It will fall on deaf ears – all the evangelicals are screaming – Creed! we have no Creed but the Bible!!!”

    And what’s wrong with saying that? I don’t get caught up in all that stuff, I just choose to beleive in what the word of God says and try my best to appy to my life. Creeds and all that stuff is fine as long as they fall in line with Scripture but I feel no need to recite one or post it on my bulletin board.

  70. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “the holy catholic Church”

    I have a problem with this if it’s talking about the literal Pope led Catholic Church

  71. SolRod,
    “I have a problem with this if it’s talking about the literal Pope led Catholic Church”

    Why would you think that it would?

  72. Lutheran says:

    SolRod,

    The term “catholic” in the creeds refers to this meaning of catholic: that which is believed in all places by all churches. Rome, of course, decreed that they are THE “Catholic” church. But that’s not how the Creed uses the term.

    When we say the Creeds in the Lutheran church, for example, we say the phrase “holy Christian church” so that distinction is made more sharply.

  73. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Was just checking

  74. Puzzletop says:

    Yo, pp family! Erunner is in bad shape. He has been in bed for a day and a half and is passing kidney stones. He is feeling anxious, abandoned and a Christian failure. Keep our brother in prayer right now. Thanks. Pzz

  75. Sue says:

    @7,@20
    Americans took California from the Mexicans who took California from the Spanish who took Californa from the “Indians” who lived in harmony with the animals who lost their homes —-

  76. Nonnie says:

    Praying for our beloved brother.

  77. Puzzletop says:

    Thanks nonnie. Erunner needs our prayers.

  78. Papias says:

    The guys over at the The Elephants Debt http://theelephantsdebt.com made some changes over at their blog. Took out all the comments and will now only allow new comments from “pastors, elders, and significant ministry partners”.

    Reminds me of when the SMP started…kinda.

  79. Oh No says:

    Why did my post get stuck in moderation?

  80. Em says:

    Sue’s #81 is something that bothers me about our breast-beating regarding what our forefathers did … i suspect that most of the breast-beating comes from those whose parents and grandparents came over after the “settling” was done … it may not be right to move in and take over, but truth be told the only ones who haven’t done so came off the ark … settling and building the United States in America and all the immigration into North and South America from Europe is not an anomaly in history …
    just pondering as i sit here waiting for some more lookie-loos to keep an appointment to “look” at my house
    prayer appreciated – i’m tired

  81. jlo says:

    praying Em, hope this will be the family that’s perfect for your home.

  82. Xenia says:

    Lord have mercy on our dearly beloved Em.

    Regarding the sins of our forefathers… no, we can’t rewind the tape but it’s respectful to at least acknowledge the history and not pretend it never happened.

    Regarding Mrs. Evans’ slide show… I found it a little depressing that a woman as smart as she appears to be has distilled “living biblically” down to following a few Jewish customs which she plucked willy nilly out of the Hebrew sacramental system. Those Jewish traditions worked hand in glove with the temple worship of animal sacrifices. Without the sacrifices, the rest of it, the stuff Mrs. Evans chose to copy, is merely ethnic customs and really doesn’t have much to do with adopting a biblical lifestyle, especially if you only plan to do it for one year!

    If she chose to live a year as a biblical Christian she would have chosen other activities with which to occupy her time. She would have found herself praying without ceasing, etc.

    These kinds of demonstrations serve to prove what some people already want to believe, that is, that silly stuff like “praising your husband at the gates” with a home made sign is nothing but tedious ritual which deceive people into thinking they are serving God. Her rituals were meaningless because they were not attached to the (now defunct) sacramental system of the OT. For a Christian, eating a bacon cheeseburger is more biblical than keeping kosher.

    It reminds me of a similar book I read last year about a man who wanted to live a year “doing what Jesus would do.” (Why just one year?) He rushed from one Jesus event to another, the entire year, in his expensive sports car. He, too, picked, smorgasbord style, snippets from the OT Law to obey.

    Isn’t today Thursday?

  83. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Xenia said:

    “Lord have mercy on our dearly beloved Em.

    Regarding the sins of our forefathers… no, we can’t rewind the tape but it’s respectful to at least acknowledge the history and not pretend it never happened.

    Regarding Mrs. Evans’ slide show… I found it a little depressing that a woman as smart as she appears to be has distilled “living biblically” down to following a few Jewish customs which she plucked willy nilly out of the Hebrew sacramental system. Those Jewish traditions worked hand in glove with the temple worship of animal sacrifices. Without the sacrifices, the rest of it, the stuff Mrs. Evans chose to copy, is merely ethnic customs and really doesn’t have much to do with adopting a biblical lifestyle, especially if you only plan to do it for one year!

    If she chose to live a year as a biblical Christian she would have chosen other activities with which to occupy her time. She would have found herself praying without ceasing, etc.

    These kinds of demonstrations serve to prove what some people already want to believe, that is, that silly stuff like “praising your husband at the gates” with a home made sign is nothing but tedious ritual which deceive people into thinking they are serving God. Her rituals were meaningless because they were not attached to the (now defunct) sacramental system of the OT. For a Christian, eating a bacon cheeseburger is more biblical than keeping kosher.

    It reminds me of a similar book I read last year about a man who wanted to live a year “doing what Jesus would do.” (Why just one year?) He rushed from one Jesus event to another, the entire year, in his expensive sports car. He, too, picked, smorgasbord style, snippets from the OT Law to obey.

    Isn’t today Thursday?”

    I don’t know why people just don’t keep it simple and follow Jesus commands. I cannot get caught up in trying to follow Old Testament Law

  84. You go, Xenia. My thoughts exactly.

  85. Em says:

    thank you, jlo and Xenia – lovely people just toured this house (don’t you sometimes sense that you’ve met a member of The Family?) – went out and treated myself to a hot 16 oz latte (never buy them anymore) and i’ve got my second wind … so i think your prayers to the Father prevailed, whether or not the folks are the right ones for the house

    i do agree that it is wrong to ignore or gloss over the agressions and chicanery of those early settlers and “captains of industry” down thru our history, but we should be clear in our minds that it is the history of mankind … and still goes on and, yes, it is too bad that we are taught that we were blessed for being a righteous nation … that said, i think we may have been blessed for the sake of the righteous in our nation; there’s some history/doctrine to back that up … love the often quoted line from the old spiritual, “everybody talkin ’bout heaven, ain’t a goin there …” … the walk is what talks – unfeigned humility and underlying joy – it aint easy … but it is …

  86. Sue says:

    “regarding the sins of our forefathers” – being of Irish descent, I agree. It’s also respectful to acknowledge that descendents are not responsible for what their ancestors did.

  87. Sinner n Saint says:

    Yeah it’s really intriguing to me that most “evangelicals” will vote for Romney, despite his Mormonism, and will spurn Obama, despite his confession of Christianity.

    I said this on fb and had many say that Romney stands for Christian values and Obama’s confession means nothing w/o fruit (Christian values). Makes me ask, what are Christian values? Or what does Christ value? And then it makes me wonder why we think we even know what these candidates believe or how they really live; they only say publically what will help them get elected.

    To quote Kip from Napoleon Dynamite, “like anybody could even know that.”

  88. brian says:

    ” Obama’s confession means nothing w/o fruit ” this summarizes my experience in the corporation. Doctrine mattered as long as it did not get in the way of the apologetic. I get that I really do it supports the status quo and protects the revenue stream. I also understand that both of these are sacrosanct and it should be. Trust me I get this, in spades. I read David French’s blog on patheos. He is convinced Gov. Romney is an evangelical christian and Pres. Obama is an enemy of America. I get the rhetoric it is effective and that alone always justifies its use. If there is one paradigm within the evangelical faith in america that stands sacrosanct it is pragmatism. I actually agree with that, because it works and that is the one and only value God uses to judge one’s usefulness and that of God’s love. I also understand that. I agree with it because it is rational, effective, and efficient. That alone measures God’s love. I get that aspect as well.

    But I will admit that I struggle with the emotional aspect, such as needing to show grief, have a meaning, be part of a community, have hope and other such pathetic emotionalistic nonsense. I admit to that sin, and it is a sin, that is clear. Not in scripture but that is completely irrelevant. An honest appraisal from the very cheap seats with the heretics and other cannon fodder that will be burned in hell. It is not good news, it is not asking to much to stop calling it that for us. It really is not.

  89. jlo, Wayne Grudem? Is your former church in AZ?

  90. jlo says:

    no, it’s in So Cal.

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