Loose Ends

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64 Responses

  1. Em says:

    do i want to be first on this…

    what Graham is saying needs to be said now and should be said by the White House … doesn’t matter if Graham only speaks to his choir – hopefully, those who don’t like the man will make the call to go shoot a policeman the issue – this is a very ugly turn of events upon us now and will result in a police force that we won’t respect very much if it isn’t stopped

  2. Bob Sweat says:

    Word!

  3. dswoager says:

    I agree with Michael on this one. As much as I may agree with a fair amount of what he is saying, I can hardly think of a less appropriate voice to be giving this message.

    I also get enough of both sides of this issue on my wall to know that the intro “Listen up–Blacks, Whites, Latinos” is probably read by most that are reading it as “hey black boys” whether it is those who side against those “racist police” or those who side against those “hoods”.

    Lets go ahead and have a rich powerful white man who sees himself as a moral authority to put out this fire.

  4. Michael says:

    Em,

    As I said I’m very pro-police.
    However, the cases we have seen where authority has been abused have to be addressed as well.
    In my humble opinion, Graham was just trying to stir up his constituency and score brownie points.

  5. OCDan says:

    Okay, I am going to chime in on this. Graham and his ilk are showing their hypocrisy on this issue for sure.

    However, I am saddened because the bad cops are being exposed at a rate that isn’t going to end well for this country.

    And before anyone says it is just few rotten apples, if the good cops don’t say or do anything because of the Blue Code or what ever they call that messed up way of thinking, I say you are an accomplice to the crime.

    Also, enough of this suspended with pay horsecrap for these guys. How about fired w/o pension.

    Yeah, I have some strong feelings about this, but if you want cop killers to get harsher than usual punishments, than I hold you to a higher standard. Heck, you are the very reps of the law, act like it. And don’t give me that line about seeing kids being molested or women raped that causes you to just start abusing traffic violators. Absolute nonsense. If you can’t make distinctions get out of the police business. Sorry, but taking bribes and stealing some money from the evidence is just wrong.

  6. Nonnie says:

    I agree 100% with what Graham said. I don’t agree because Graham said it, I agree with what is being said.

    I do not know his motives.

  7. OCDan says:

    All I need to know about the Graham family is that they removed Mormons from the cult list on their website when Romney was running for Prez.

    We can debate the Mormon issue, but my point is what Franklin and Co. did.

    How convenient.

    Blech!!!

  8. Michael says:

    For those relatively new here, I have a long, unpleasant history with Graham that colors my view of him.
    There are very few “leaders” I have less respect for.

    I believe respect for authority is biblical and necessary…but so is rooting out abuse in places of authority.

  9. covered says:

    Nonnie, thank you for saying what many other’s believe but won’t have the guts to say. We put labels on people and then we become critical of all that they say right or wrong. I have many reasons to be critical of Graham but what he said is true.

  10. Jim says:

    I have friends who are cops. I also live in the land where NY cops come to retire and try and tell their neighbors what to do. If I die this year, it will be because I stood up to my psycho ex-cop neighbor, and he’ll never get over it.

    We obey cops when they stay stop, kneel, hop on one foot, etc, because we don’t want to get shot. Period.

    Think of the pathology of someone who lives to put people in cages because of some “law” that they may or may not agree with. MOST police work, other than revenue toll trolling, is related to the drug war.

  11. Michael says:

    “MOST police work, other than revenue toll trolling, is related to the drug war.”

    Jim…don’t get me started… 🙂

  12. Alex says:

    As usual, these issues can be complex.

    Franklin Graham in one breath says we are to “obey the authorities”…but he doesn’t really believe that…nor do most conservatives. It depends on who the “authorities” are.

    Graham and conservatives (myself included to be intellectually honest) were not in agreement with Bundy Ranch. I had a personal friends who were on the front-lines of that confrontation.

  13. Alex says:

    I am also generally pro-police…and I think it is always good advice to try your best not to present a threat to a cop and to try and not piss off a cop…not b/c of their “authority”…but b/c of common sense and self-preservation.

    I don’t care what a badass you are…the cops have more friends they can call than you have…and their friends will bring guns and batons and a beatdown with them.

    I’m more in the Chris Rock Camp on this one than the Franklin Graham Camp:

  14. Kevin H says:

    I agree with much of what was written in the article. Graham is a conundrum for me. On the one hand, I love what his Samaritan’s Purse organization does. More times than not I will agree with things he says, such as this statement. On the other hand, I do not like the tone and attitude he often portrays in his political activeness. A political activeness that would probably be better served to be scaled back. Nor do I like the money he has taken as a head of ministries. And of course there is his apparent support and association with corrupt and abusive Christian leaders of which I don’t know too much, but do know of at least what’s-his-name 🙂 in BD’s neck of the woods.

    For the most part those who need to hear this message are not going to listen to a man like Graham, because they probably have little or no respect for him. The message would need to come from someone else (ironically, like maybe someone like the President). It would be better suited and more effective if Graham spoke to issues that more plague those who follow him and would more listen to him. But then, he might lose some popularity amongst his cheering section.

  15. Alex says:

    This is where Franklin Graham’s narrative breaks down. Just insert “police” with Obama and the Supreme Court:

    It comes down to respect for authority and obedience. If Obama and the Supreme Court tells you to stop, you stop. If Obama and the Supreme Court tells you to put your hands in the air, you put your hands in the air. If Obama and the Supreme Court tells you to lay down face first with your hands behind your back, you lay down face first with your hands behind your back. It’s as simple as that. Even if you think Obama and the Supreme Court is wrong—YOU OBEY.

  16. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    Well said…

  17. Alex says:

    Until Franklin Graham is more intellectually honest and until he is not getting rich from selling Jesus (now only around $500K per year instead of $1.1 Million per year)….then I don’t really care for him that much.

  18. Alex says:

    Who is the supreme authority in the US?

    Well, pretty much a combo of what filters through the Three Branches of Govt…the Executive, the Legislative and Judicial branches.

    The cops and soldiers etc are simply agents of the State, they are not “the” Authority.

    As such, conservatives like Graham don’t really believe and practice what he stated, they simply apply a biblical narrative to a narrow context that they like.

    If what Graham said were really true…then conservative evangelicals would not freak the you-know-what out when laws like Obamacare or laws like Gay Marriage or other laws are instituted by the true “Authority” of the System the cops and soldiers etc are merely agents of.

  19. Alex says:

    The truth is all factions pick and choose when to be righteously supportive of “authority” or righteously indignant against “authority”.

    Graham’s stuff is just illogical political noise and hypocrisy and not the truth.

    Obey the cops, yes…for your own self-interest more than anything. You don’t want to get shot or beat up…and much of the time the cops are decent men and women doing their jobs…but they are HUMAN and capable of corruption and capable of wrongdoing and capable of abuses. Have a good lawyer for those instances.

    No one really obeys the “Authority” they don’t like and disagree with and don’t trust. That’s intellectually dishonest of Graham.

  20. mike says:

    Anyone who tells you to blindly obey authority is evil incarnate in My book.
    -mike

  21. j2theperson says:

    While I agree that you should be polite and respectful when interacting with the police, that doesn’t protect people who are confronted by police out of the blue and have no idea what’s going on such as the man with the toy gun in Walmart who was killed by police or the multiple people who have essentially suffered home invasions when police officers have raided the wrong houses during drug raids. And Graham’s advice if carried out to it’s logical conclusion is a great recipe for the promotion of police brutality, totalitarianism, and the destruction of civil rights.

  22. Michael says:

    We had an “officer involved shooting” here this week.
    The community has responded with support both for the family of the deceased and the officers who had to carry out their tragic duty.
    The investigation will be handled by outside authorities and their findings will be presented to a grand jury.
    That’s a very good system.

  23. filbertz says:

    so, this is a case where we ‘shoot the messenger?’ 😉

    I think the president HAS spoken to the issue, though Graham-crackerz can’t acknowledge that and still raid the ATM.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Some of the responses here remind me of the old Murphy Brown vs Dan Quayle dispute in 1992.

    Who has the right to make certain comments?

  25. filbertz says:

    I am increasingly concerned with the militarization of local police forces–not just SWAT teams, but heavily armored vehicles with the capacity to obliterate nearly any foe. There isn’t need for that in River City.

  26. Didn’t Paul “submit” to his Roman authorities, appealing to Caeser, and didn’t he get killed for it?

  27. George says:

    Franklin Graham is a courageous human being, risking his entire ministry to say things that most mega church pastors are avoiding on social issues. I would give him my last dime with a few other ministers. Seriously, can’t we find something better to talk about. He’s a prophet and a hero along with the Benham Brothers, et al. And that’s a fact.

  28. Michael says:

    George,

    Bullspit.
    Franklin Graham says nothing that his donor base doesn’t want to hear.
    When confronted with abuse and corruption of his ministry pals he sided with his pals in no uncertain terms.

  29. OCDan says:

    Sorry but I just don’t take Graham seriously anymore.

    Look, his father has just about gone universal salvation and then the org. takes Mormons off the cult list on the website.

    Classic hypocrites.

    Sorry, but the prophet and hero thing just doesn’t fit with the actions when standing up for Christ alone.

    Just another celeb pastor.

  30. mike says:

    Filbertz.
    that was a racist name you called him and you should know better.
    -mike

  31. filbertz says:

    Mike,
    I know better.
    I didn’t call him a cracker.
    I called him Graham-crackerz because it’s more fun than simply calling him nutz.

  32. Ixtlan says:

    filbertz,
    I obviously don’t know better.

  33. Jim says:

    I really don’t understand why Christians don’t clearly see the inherent immorality, the sickness, if you will, of someone who chooses to enforce malum prohibitum laws.

    “Just following orders”. “I don’t make the laws”.

    The killing of the dude in NY for selling loose cigarettes was “legal”, because he resisted, but what twisted crap resides in a man who would arrest someone for selling individual cigarettes?

  34. covered says:

    Come on George, surely you are just kidding right?

  35. “Just following orders…”
    …said every dumbsh*t dork who ever crossed the line

  36. papiaslogia says:

    I cannot be impartial in regards to Franklin Graham, due to his association with Skip and he role he played in bringing Skip back to ABQ.

    I call him a brother in the Lord, but if I had the chance, I would sit down with him to let him know how many people he hurt with that episode. There’s no statue of limitations.

  37. covered says:

    filbertz, I LOVE graham crackers (the real graham crackers) and understood what you were saying. Some here are wound a bit too tight it seems 🙂

  38. Em says:

    well, i have been in the face of police officers on a couple of occasions and i know that wouldn’t have flown if i’d had a different color skin or had been a teenage boy
    aand i know that my husband told off a couple traffic cops over the years
    the point is that we are very close to the edge of finding our good cops used for target practice all over the country under the guise of payback and the ultimate result of that is that we’ll end up with a police force worse than what is south of the border now… not my humble opinion – fact

  39. Michael says:

    Em,

    You can’t have a police outfit worse than the ones south of the border.
    The best you can hope for is to match their corruption.
    The way you change things is by honestly addressing abuses and corruption while celebrating both the good guys and the role they play in a civilized society.

  40. Alex says:

    “Look, his father has just about gone universal salvation and then the org. takes Mormons off the cult list on the website.”

    That’s the good stuff the Graham’s have done 🙂

  41. OC P says:

    “However, it cannot be denied that all across the country we’re seeing an increase in the abuse of authority by some in this profession.”

    Michael, what statistics do you have to back this up? Police use of force was much more prevalent in the past. The only reason you perceive it as being a problem now is because of cell phones, videos, etc, and the reporting by the news. There is much less force now than 20 years ago. You’ve always had problem officers. Nothing new. What has changed is that certain people have zero respect for authority including parents, neighbors, pastors, and yes police. That’s the problem.

    MLD, I still haven’t seen you apologize for condemning the Fergusen cop before any real info came out. You wanted him put in jail. Time to admit you were wrong.

  42. Jim says:

    Who are the good guys, Michael? Do we balance the actions of an individual officer and proclaim him “good” if the scale is a little bit in the right direction?

    Good guys NEVER put people in cages and steal their possessions (civil forfeiture) for victimless “crimes”, yet that’s the job of every cop.

  43. Jim says:

    OC P,

    Look at the 20 year stats on no knock raids.

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “MLD, I still haven’t seen you apologize for condemning the Fergusen cop before any real info came out. You wanted him put in jail. Time to admit you were wrong.”

    Me? Hmm, I usually do not make comments about social ills. (1) because I usually don’t care and (2) because I figure all parties are idiots and at fault to some degree. (as I said yesterday, all remarriages are adulterous as both parties to the divorce are always at fault to a degree. (3) it’s all part of the fall and I can’t fix it.

    If I said it, it was probably in the context that if it was the other way around and the victim had shot the cop, I am sure he would have been put in jail.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jim, “Good guys NEVER put people in cages and steal their possessions (civil forfeiture) for victimless “crimes”, yet that’s the job of every cop.”

    other than you made that up – what ethics program did you pick that up from

  46. Jim says:

    MLD,

    Every cop is a soldier in the drug war. If you disagree, ask one.

    Are you saying the drug war is moral? Is it moral to steal someone’s possessions and place them in a cage for activity that our last three presidents participated in?

  47. Alex says:

    Gotta deal with the facts as they are and be as intellectually honest as possible.

    The Ferguson cop looks to be innocent and the reality is that there are criminals who hate the cops, are drugged out of their minds or are looking for an advantage to exploit which is why cops use so much force…often.

    The other reality is that cops are humans…and from what we can observe from all walks of life, including “pastors”…humans are capable of doing bad things…and there is a small percentage of cops who make bad decisions or are not professionals and do bad things routinely. However, what we see on the news seems like a lot of the bad cases…but in a nation of a gazillion cops…it’s a small percentage…but still valid to want and to require police accountability.

    In general, at least in my area…the law enforcement agents and their departments are run well and are responsible and accountable to the public…while doing the difficult work of enforcing the laws. I call the cops when there is problem…and I am careful to try and be professional and polite and to not present a threat when I’m pulled over. I figure, this dude pulling me over is a human being…why would I want to increase my odds of something bad happening by provoking him. I know my rights and I have a lawyer…but I also know it’s best to address the officer “yes sir, no sir” and to clearly state my answers and to provide the documentation he requests etc.

  48. filbertz says:

    covered,
    😉

    I met someone last week wound so tight that when she farts, only dogs can hear it. I don’t think anyone here meets that standard.

  49. Alex says:

    There is some truth regarding the “drug war” and that issue is extremely complicated and the more I learn about that issue (and some churches who are involved in that game and our govt.’s involvement in that game on all sides) the more it is harder to know the good guys from the bad guys and right from wrong.

    Things aren’t always as they appear.

  50. Michael says:

    Thankfully, I have to go pick up the boy.
    Thus, you are all spared my endless comments on the war on drugs which is actually a war for drugs which provide the raw capital to prop up two economies.

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jim, the cops do not do these actions unilaterally. Society (including you), through legislation, election or whatever has decided this is best. The cops are the enforcers of your will.

    Look, I got a speeding ticket coming back from Lake Havasu 2 weeks ago – a big one more than 20 miles over the speed limit and in a construction zone (double fine). I think it is immoral for someone to tell a cop to stop me on the road for anything. After I argued that point, he had a bigger smile on his face when he gave me the ticket.

    Change the laws – don’t change the cops. Look, the EU yesterday declare abortion a civil right – anything can be legislated.

    I haven’t seen the total for the ticket yet, but I thinking $1,500 if anyone want to contribute to my free driving fund 😉

  52. Alex says:

    Michael, I have been contacted by a dude whose family was front and center with the Narco situation. He’s working on a book about it. He knew Charles Bowden and spoke with him and corresponded with him like you have.

    The realities of that issue are really complicated and messy on one hand, but really just simply human nature and very believable on the other hand when you mix money, politics, power, and even church and politics.

  53. Jim says:

    MLD,

    You’re making my point. What is wrong with someone who chooses to enforce the garbage our legislators pass? Today I take your car and throw you in jail, and tomorrow I give you a ticket for the same offense.

  54. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jim, I guess we could become a country of unenforceable laws.

  55. mrs. TDoS says:

    Not trying to stir a pot, but an interesting book I recently read is The Rise of the Warrior Cop. It’s not an anti cop book, but it kinda explains how we got to where we are cop wise. Highly recommend! Franklin wise, I got nothin’.

  56. Rob Murphy says:

    Is there a consternation emoji? I need one.
    This is where we are with the Romans 13 this week, then?
    It’s harder to score than a baseball game with 7 bases and 13 players.

  57. wall on the fly says:

    So when bad cop says bend over so we can do a full body cavity search, you bend over and OBEY because it’s your Christain duty because bad cop is your “authority”!

    Yeah Right!

  58. brian says:

    I sent Mr. Graham a bill for a new only irony meter, the last time it broke like that I was reading ray comfort discussing evolutionary theory.

  59. brian says:

    ““Look, his father has just about gone universal salvation and then the org. takes Mormons off the cult list on the website.”

    That’s the good stuff the Graham’s have done ”

    Yes it is, his father came full circle on that aspect of it, even though it was couched. I remember saying to some folks back in the early 90’s that Mr. Graham sr was making universalist sounding noise, you know all us universalists have secret handshakes and we ripped off a few Masonic hand signs.No one in the group really appreciated the “humor”. I need to work on that.

  60. Erik says:

    #6

    Well said

  61. I do not believe we need to blindly obey authority that is being misused. Listen to this podcast that includes Florida police who arrested an employee of a convenience store for loitering in the store where he worked over and over to pad their arrest stats. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/548/cops-see-it-differently-part-two

    Up here in Vancouver we have cops who tasered a guy to death at the airport and then got together and lied about what happened. It only unraveled when cell phone footage surfaced.

    I am curious, though, as to Michael’s history with Franklin Graham. For those of us new around here it might to help to give some context for what seemed quite a personal reaction.

  62. Ixtlan says:

    Nice twist of scripture there Franklin. Submit to authority, no matter what! Peter, Paul, John, didn’t work with that interpretation, and neither did Luther, Knox, Bonhoeffer or King .

  63. Michael says:

    synapsesoffish,

    In almost every scandal involving CC, Franklin has been in the background defending the guilty.
    This was particularly true in Albuquerque.

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