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147 Responses

  1. Alex says:

    I’m open that it is propaganda, can you please provide the proof that the story was thoroughly debunked and is in fact not true?

    I haven’t been able to find that evidence yet.

  2. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Michael for this post. I saw the blurb yesterday on the Drudge Report, and immediately dismissed it as false. Why? Have you ever seen the Drudge Report? Constant links to stories to inspire fear and paranoia. Constant stories of the worst of politicians (usually liberals), athletes, and celebrities. Besides, way way back in October or November, they linked to a story that said that by the end of the year (end of 2014), there would be 10s of thousands of cases of Ebola in the United States. More fear mongering.

  3. Alex says:

    “ISIS is operating a camp just a few miles from El Paso, Texas, according to Judicial Watch sources that include a Mexican Army field grade officer and a Mexican Federal Police Inspector.”–Judicial Watch.

    Michael, are you asserting that the US govt. wouldn’t lie or dis-inform the US public about something?

    “We are not spying on our citizens”–US Govt. Pre-Snowden….

  4. Alex says:

    You have to assert that either Judicial Watch is completely fabricating their multiple sources…or that their multiple sources are intentionally lying.

    You further have to assert that the US Govt. “official” is not lying.

    With the current US track record of non-truthfulness…I am skeptical of the “official” story.

  5. Michael says:

    Alex,

    I don’t trust either government as far as I can toss them.
    However, there a lot of folks on the ground there that I do trust and this is a hoot to them.

  6. Alex says:

    “However, there a lot of folks on the ground there that I do trust and this is a hoot to them.”

    That doesn’t sound too solid to me.

    I will ask some friends who used to be in the military intelligence community.

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    How do you get on this “viral” list? i look at Facebook, and about 10 mainline news web sites several times a day – never see this stuff.
    FOX, CNN, MSNBC, LA Times, NY Times, Washington Post etc.

    I wonder – it was like the link the other day to the “petition” to remove Mark Driscoll from the Hillsong meeting … 17 signatures

    Too much media today, everyone needs to either make up or embellish “news” – it’s like scientist who now have to say their discovered rock is 5 billion years older than the previous rock – or they get no grants or funding. 🙂

  8. Alex says:

    From your link Michael:

    “In a bid to investigate the reports, El Paso-based ABC-7 News contacted a number of federal agencies linked to border security and was told “the report is unverified, and it is unlikely that Isis is in Anapra or Juarez, Mexico”.”

    Unverified? Unlikely?

    Not too solid, IMO.

    As respectfully as I can disagree (I respect you and love you as a friend).

  9. Alex says:

    I remember a former NSA employ standing in my store in 2009 telling me that the Govt. was spying on US citizens, collecting all emails, phone calls etc.

    It was “conspiracy theory” that had been rumored for years….and the Govt. “officials” consistently lied…even under oath before congress…time and time again.

    The claims were “unverified and unlikely” etc and those who reported the claims were merely propagandists and fear-mongers etc.

    Turns out, not so much…

  10. Alex says:

    Here’s what we know to be indisputable fact:

    1. ISIS has self-proclaimed its goal/mission to infiltrate the US and attack here.

    2. ISIS has openly called for operatives to exploit the US/Mexico border.

    3. The US/Mexico border is about as secure and tight as Kim Kardashians vajay-jay.

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    We need to spray Mexico with a very potent pest control poison and then see if we can grow Canadians down there.

  12. Michael says:

    Alex,

    I’m basing my opinion on my knowledge of Juarez and the sources that live there and in El Paso and Los Cruces, along with the reports.

    I simply don’t believe that there is a camp set up…that would put billions at risk.

    If someone wants to make a case that terrorists could come over the border, that’s a whole different story.

    That’s easy…

  13. Anne says:

    MLD – as a native of El Paso, a graduate of NMSU – Las Cruces, a friend of many Mexicans, on both sides of the border, I find your #12 offensive and racist. I am surprised and disappointed by your comment. 🙁

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Oh, it was a joke – you can’t grow Canadians. 😉

  15. Anne says:

    The attitude behind the “joke” is what is offensive, MLD. That you can even joke about our neighbors to the south as equivalant to “pests” and infer that Canadians are superior to our living, breathing, human neighbors to the south is very sad.

  16. Xenia says:

    Yeah, it wasn’t a good joke, MLD. Just tell everyone you’re sorry and move on.

  17. Xenia says:

    Not “move on” as in “leave,” just “move on” as in “change the subject.”

  18. Josh The Baptist says:

    Alex posts #11, but something MLD posted was offensive? 🙂 Wow

    I had a missionary friend come home from an extended mission trip a year or two ago. He told me he spent his last couple of weeks in Juarez.

    As a reader of this blog, and subsequently Charles Bowden, I was like, “JUAREZ?!?!?!”.

    He replies, nonchalantly, “Yeah. Nice town.”

  19. Anne says:

    I agree, Josh, that Alex’s 3rd point in #11 is crude. However, its vulgarity does not rise to the same level as joking about exterminating people like pests.

  20. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    Michael,
    You’ve just inspired a brilliant ideer for the “war on terror.”
    We should either:
    Invite ISIS into America (not keep them out) and DARE them to, in the middle of a mega CC service, in front of the king, hand out 5 Point Calvinism tracts, or pictures of the king’s mansion (oops, I mean “what God provided”) – they’d be killed on the spot!
    OR
    Spread stories in churches ISIS is now spreading 5 point Calvinism. We’d have boots on the ground within the week (or nukes)!!!!

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t see what is so offensive – I hold Mexicans accountable for what goes on in Mexico just like everyone in the world holds (blames) Americans what goes on here. How we are decadent in the way we spend our money (on iPods – and how we export the Kardashians to the world) , how we cause the world to provide us with drugs – how we elect people specifically to take us to war all over the world.

    Our neighbors to the north do not cause us the grief our neighbors to the south do. Perhaps the Canadians took preventative measures 100 yrs ago that the Mexicans ignored. At one point Mexico was far more grand and majestic than the US – they blew it.

  22. Xenia says:

    Welll MLD, I reckon if you won’t apologize for joking about spraying poison gas over Mexico then I guess you won’t apologize for anything.

    Probably the worst thing I ever read on the PhxP and that’s saying something.

  23. Michael says:

    The safest city in the country is El Paso, Texas.
    This is partly because cartels don’t like attention and keep their violence on the other side of the border.
    The last thing they want is the kind of response an ISIS camp would bring…and they have the firepower and financial ability to do whatever they want.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well, if everyone is going to be overly sensitive sissies then I apologize for offending such sensitivities.
    But then I to will start demanding apologies.

  25. Xenia says:

    I have this theory that Roman Catholic countries are more susceptible to corruption than others because of Catholicism’s doctrine of purgatory, a place you can get out of by means of bribery. If you can pay off God, why not pay off the police and the politicians?

  26. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    That (#26) is an angle I’ve never heard or thought of, but you might be on to something…

  27. Xenia says:

    My neighbors, family members and my new godson are Mexicans. I love them and I will stand up for them.

    But, I will accept your apology, MLD. Thank you.

  28. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I find #26 to be very offensive to our RCC brothers / sisters. Purgatory is a very holy doctrine to them.
    Apology requested.— well not really as I am well adjusted. 😉

  29. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    MLD,
    I don’t see the racism, and personally hate when that’s thrown around until proven because it desensitizes others for REALLY racists statements, then nothing changes.
    However, where I disagree with your statement is assuming capabilities comparing two drastically different environments.
    I’ve personally served in parts of the world where we were liberating people from evil. I can attest to the affect being kept uneducated, poor, destitute, and in all accounts abused has a society when done to generations. At first, I too thought why don’t they just ____, then remembered the wealth in this country I grew up with, the mindset/conditioning “we’ve ‘Merica!!” and all it entails, the protection of all the gov services we have here (not only do we have the most well-trained law enforcement, but we can also sue them into oblivion).
    I also served a couple of years in TJ in missions. VASTLY different world. I, well the Lord had to teach me, MUCH patience for those I was called to serve. Even “simple” things like learning to plant/care for gardens had to be done in baby steps.
    It’s not that I think US peeps are superior to anyone, just we start off with more than most can imagine, and I believe that should balance our expectations.

  30. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    UnCCed,
    But they weren’t always that way – as I said, the had more majesty than the US – they ignored something, just as the Germans did when they let Hitler in. Does anyone here not blame the German people for what Germany became? (except those of you who always blame the American for everyone’s whoas

    But it was a joke. I do advocate that if ISIS is in Juarez, that we provide air strikes or invasion to rid the area of them, just as we do uninvited in the middle east.

  31. Captain Kevin says:

    I love you, MLD, but sometimes you can be a real jerk! (as can I)

  32. Xenia says:

    Here’s an interesting broad brush thought about Mexico, as opposed to the US or Canada.

    When the English (and other Europeans) came to North America, they considered the native population to be sub-human. Northern Europeans were not used to dark skinned folk and certainly did not consider them to be people you could marry. So they Indians were either killed or shoved off to reservations. They were always “other.”

    The Spaniards, on the other hand, were used to non-whites, especially Moors and other dark folk. They were considered to be fully human, people that you should evangelize and could marry. Sure, the white Spaniards were still the guys on top and sure, Cortez slaughtered many, but the general attitude towards the natives was that they were genuine humans.

    So before we start congratulating ourselves for doing things right way back in the day, let us consider these things.

  33. Anne says:

    Good points, Xenia! Our neighbors to the north are also predominantly white due to the consideration of the brown indigenous peoples being sub-human. In 2006 89% of Canadians were white compared to 65% in the US. The numbers are changing due to immigration and lower birth rates among whites, but they are still the majority in both countries. Though not for long….. maybe not in my lifetime but certainly in my children and grand children’s lives.

  34. Alex says:

    What’s hilarious is the Chinese think we’re all inferiors…and they will be the lead world power someday.

  35. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Anne,
    Now your comment sounds racist. Are you saying good things come out of Canada (or they cause less concern to the rest of the world) because they are white? As if people of color cannot or will not accomplish the same?

    It’s almost as if you are saying “just wait until their population gets darker and then see what problems they have.”

  36. Em says:

    why are we all afraid to condemn recreational drug use, go after it like Carrie Nation went after the saloons? she was a strange cartoon, but she was motivated by an endemic national habit of the working man of her day drinking up his paycheck – back then we went through a national cold turkey attempt, which didn’t work, but didn’t we come out of prohibition better able to manage the stuff? dunno, tho – this isn’t the same country it was 100 years ago, not the same at all

    Xenia is thinking along similar lines to what i’ve speculated that the problem isn’t the Mexican, rather it is a society south of the border that, with good reason, has no respect for the law

    Canada, btw, has its own immigration problems – big money and corruption from the east – IMO we are just as apt to find those ISIS guys coming down from the north… we have lots of back roads, old mine shafts (who knows what is already stashed in some of them?), logging roads ‘n such that are charted on easily accessible maps – i’ve got some old Metzger maps that every hiker in the last century used to carry – very infomative

  37. Michael says:

    Xenia,

    One of the fascinating issues when you get way deep in studying Mexico is that they tend to elect and honor light skinned people among them over the darker indigenous people.
    Very complex set of issues down there…

  38. Xenia says:

    I myself married a Mexican of Nicaraguan descent.

    Yet I do hope white folks don’t disappear off the planet entirely.

    I can envisage a conversation 200 years from now when a little black-haired, brown-eyed child asks, “Mommy, did their really used to be people who had yellow hair and blue eyes?”

    And Mommy replies, “Yes, dear. They were the elves.”

  39. ? says:

    Mexico city has a very large population of Spanish Jews.

  40. Xenia says:

    Michael, very true.

    It is definitely more complex than my little #33 suggests. But I think I hit the broad strokes.

  41. ? says:

    since the 1500’s ( fleeing after Spanish Inquisition)

  42. Alex says:

    As human Evolution continues…and as societies mix and assimilate, you’ll see less and less differences in homo sapiens.

    Most homo sapiens will be multi-racial in the next 500 years…unless the End Times folks and AlGore Climate Cultists are right and we’re no longer on the planet 🙂

  43. Michael says:

    Em,

    It’s beyond the realm of possibility to end a 50 billion dollar market economy.
    If we somehow managed to do so, the Mexican economy and maybe the U.S. banking system would both collapse.
    It was drug cash that kept banking afloat during the crash a few years ago.

  44. Alex says:

    Science has discovered only three major groups within Homo Sapien:

    Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid.

    Do the research, it’s pretty interesting…but I know most fundamentalists are science-deniers and won’t accept the evidence.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    2 of my grandkids are 1/2 Mexican. My daughter’s ex – his family – they like to call themselves Spanish or Tex Mex.

    Why do they call themselves Spanish even thought he family tree was 150 yrs in Mexico? Because they didn’t intermarry with the native Mexicans. So even Mexicans look down on other Mexicans.

  46. Alex says:

    Question for my literal-bible fundamentalist friends…how did a family of Hebrews from one very specific segment of homo sapien…get on a big boat…with all other people’s wiped out and killed in the “world wide” flood…reset homo sapien with Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid?

    B/c the story is a mythology…

  47. Alex says:

    There was likely some sort of flood and some sort of boat…but maybe there’s about 1-5% truth in that myth…a myth that nearly identically mirrors a myth that was around before the Noah flood. There was likely some sort of big flood that occurred in ancient human history during the time of intelligent man…and that story got passed down many times and grew in mythology as is very human…it’s what we do.

  48. Josh The Baptist says:

    Ahh, you are wrong there Alex. Fundamentalists have always sang the song “Red and Yellow, Black and White, they are precious in his sight.”
    So they identify 4 groups instead of three.

    I’m assuming your research suggests that the “Red” are derivative of the “Yellow” – Land bridge from Siberia to Alaska and all.

  49. Xenia says:

    Alex, most fundamentalists (as you like to call them) do accept the three races of mankind categories because they connect them with Ham, Shem and Japheth. It’s a little tricky to match them up exactly (impossible, if you ask me) but that’s how the races of mankind are explained.

    As I recall from Sunday School:

    Ham is the father of the Black people.
    Shem is the father of the Jews, Arabs, and others.
    Japheth is the father of everyone else (because God said He would enlarge Japheth.)

    This scheme has been used to justify black slavery, unfortunately.

  50. Steve Wright says:

    Alex….funny how the Bible story tells us that three (not four, two or some other number) families bred and spread off the ark.

    Sounds pretty spot on with science if you ask me….

    P.S. and they were very much “pre-Hebrew” – that is multiple generations later from one of those three families

  51. Alex says:

    Josh, yes, science has observed that Mongoloid is the “native americans” descent however, scientists have also discovered that Caucasoid Europeans probably settled the US first…and the Mongoloid “native americans’ displaced them.

    Humans have been sailing for 50,000 years…and there is solid evidence in archeology in the US that Caucasoids first discovered the US and were the first to live here…then they were “displaced” by what we call the “native americans” who are Mongoloid.

  52. Xenia says:

    Alex, yes, the flood story abounds across cultures.

    This is because it actually happened and is dimly remembered by everyone.

    If no other group had a flood story, if there were no Epic of Gilgamesh, then we could wonder if it really happened.

  53. Steve Wright says:

    This scheme has been used to justify black slavery, unfortunately.
    —————————————————————-
    The two are not connected. One can have the three descendents and look at how they settled and expanded without taking the view of the drunk Noah cursing story as has been done with slavery.

    Two different issues

  54. Alex says:

    Steve, no, the Hebrews/Jews are genetically Mongoloid.

  55. Papias says:

    If ISIS was down in the Jaurez area, getting rid of them would be as easy as making them competitors in the cartels business model.

    Or, just hire the cartel to take care of ISIS.

    You know, only IF our government had a contact in the cartel….

  56. Em says:

    not all native people were considered “sub-human” as my ancestors were intermarrying with them all up and down the Ohio River back in the early settler days – 1700s? i’m not a student of history, but, my impression is that…
    i think savage was the label used for the tribes west of the Missouri and Miss. rivers and the caucasian folk that came west to find their “dream” were admittedly, pretty tough – simple minded and single-minded in their quest for a “piece of the pie.” – and the Great White Father wasn’t about to concede to ancient traditions of the nomad – he had big plans for a new nation

  57. Alex says:

    “If no other group had a flood story, if there were no Epic of Gilgamesh, then we could wonder if it really happened.”

    Yes, this proves there was likely some sort of Big Flood in intelligent human history…however, it disproves the probability that Noah’s family were the only survivors of the flood.

  58. Steve Wright says:

    Alex..your question…

    “Question for my literal-bible fundamentalist friends…how did a family of Hebrews from one very specific segment of homo sapien”

    Thus my pointing out your error…family of Hebrews is flat out wrong to describe Noah and the three sons.

  59. Xenia says:

    however, it disproves the probability that Noah’s family were the only survivors of the flood.<<<

    Doesn't follow.

  60. Steve Wright says:

    there is solid evidence in archeology in the US that Caucasoids first discovered the US and were the first to live here…then they were “displaced” by what we call the “native americans” who are Mongoloid.
    ——————————————————————————-
    I’m pretty sure your Mormon influence about ancient North American history is showing here….which I am also pretty sure that ‘science” has thoroughly debunked.

  61. Josh The Baptist says:

    “disproves the probability”

    Ahh, see probability is the key word there, and is likely correct. Then again, thousands of years of human history disprove the probability that a man was born from a virgin mother. I still believe it.

  62. Michael says:

    Em,

    If memory serves me correctly, you can stare right in to Anapra from Sunland Park, New Mexico.
    It’s not a lovely sight.
    Reconnaissance would be pretty darn simple.

  63. Alex says:

    The Noah and flood narratives are one of the most difficult stories to defend from an intellectually honest perspective.

    You are forced to assume that Noah’s small family was made up the Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid genetic groups of Homo Sapien and were extremely careful not to have sex with one of the other races of human…so those separate races could repopulate and remain a separate race.

    Doesn’t square with logic and reason.

  64. Alex says:

    Noah’s family was likely all Mongoloid and all part of the Hebrew culture.

  65. Alex says:

    The Hebrew lineage is very specific in the “bible” in the OT.

    Jesus came from the a very specific lineage according to the bible itself.

    That lineage is self-described from the bible as from Adam to Noah to David to Jesus.

    Hebrew and Mongoloid.

    Game over.

  66. Xenia says:

    Adam to Noah to Shem to Abraham to David to Jesus.

  67. Alex says:

    It doesn’t disprove “God” or Jesus…but it makes a belief in the Noah mythology as his family being the “only” humans that survived some sort of big flood as verifiably not true…as observed in science by the very specific genetic human racial differences classified as Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid.

    Jesus as a Hebrew/Jew was Mongoloid (if he in fact lived as a human descending from the tribe/people that the bible itself claims he did).

  68. Josh The Baptist says:

    “Noah’s family was likely all Mongoloid and all part of the Hebrew culture.”

    According to the Bible, which is the only place you’ll find Noah, Hebrew Culture didn’t exist until much later…with Abraham and his descendents.

  69. Alex says:

    The Adam story is a mythology containing some truth, so is the Noah story.

    It is ALL Hebrew/Jewish/Mongoloid specific and meant as such.

    It is not representative of the other peoples and groups that already populated the earth at that time and survived the flood as well.

  70. Josh The Baptist says:

    “verifiably not true”

    This is absolutely false. You can choose not to believe the biblical account, but it is impossible to verify that it is untrue. Completely impossible and dishonest on your part.

  71. Alex says:

    Adam is representative of the first of the Hebrew/Mongoloids to become “intelligent” humans in the Evolutionary Process.

    As the bible states when one of Adam’s kids was banished to another land…that land was already inhabited and populated and had its own society and system.

  72. Xenia says:

    There WAS no Hebrew culture at the time of Noah!

  73. Alex says:

    Literalists are tripped up on these mythologies thinking you have to accept them as 100% perfect truth or you aren’t “saved”.

    Hardline Atheists are tripped up by these mythologies believing you can’t accept any of it as true.

    Both are wrong.

  74. Josh The Baptist says:

    “Adam is representative of the first of the Hebrew/Mongoloids to become “intelligent” humans in the Evolutionary Process.”

    This is your theory, which seems a much further leap that just saying “It is a made-up story”.

  75. Em says:

    intellectual honesty compels me to say that i don’t know the physical make-up of the antediluvian race… Noah and family may have been physically quite able to migrate and repopulate… and mutate 🙂
    for my part, those sea shells had to turn up on the walls of the Grand Canyon by some means… hard to picture little ancient Native American kiddos putting them there from what they’d collected on a family trip to Pismo beach

  76. Josh The Baptist says:

    “Literalists are tripped up on these mythologies thinking you have to accept them as 100% perfect truth or you aren’t “saved””

    I haven’t seen anyone here make that claim.

  77. Alex says:

    Josh, I disagree.

    It is very common for People Groups to develop a mythology that contains some truth to explain how their Group came to be and to make sense of the world around them.

    Many Cultures/Groups have their own Creation narratives…many are very similar.

  78. Alex says:

    Intelligent man and recorded human history came online at very similar times all around the world in different Cultures. This is b/c Human Evolution led to homo sapien becoming intelligent with the ability to create language and write and record history at roughly the same time among the Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid races of humans.

    We see it in China, the Middle East, Africa and elsewhere.

  79. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The Jesus story is probably myth and there is no “love your neighbor” which goes against human nature anyway.

    Dog eat dog world of no purpose. Crap, and Alex owns the guns.

  80. Alex says:

    The Hebrews did a good job of documenting their Group/Culture and its early development…but well after the onset of Human Civilization and recorded history.

    Hebrews and the OT were late on the scene, but earlier than other People Groups and Cultures.

    Chinese history predates Hebrew history by a few centuries….and early Sumerian history predates them both by quite a bit.

  81. Alex says:

    These are cold hard tangible facts that you can research and quantify. I know it doesn’t square with a presuppositionalist literalist position, but to be intellectually honest…this appears to be the case due to a lot of actual evidence that we can observe today in archeology as well as genetics/dna as well as examining surviving texts etc.

  82. Josh The Baptist says:

    “It is very common for People Groups to develop a mythology that contains some truth to explain how their Group came to be and to make sense of the world around them.

    Many Cultures/Groups have their own Creation narratives…many are very similar.”

    No doubt. Because one is false, though, does not mean that all are false.

    “These are cold hard tangible facts that you can research and quantify”

    Where? You have not presented one fact, only your theories. You may think they make the most sense, and you are entitled to that opinion, but there is no way to verify or discredit the Noah story using factual data. It just can’t happen.

  83. Xenia says:

    Sure, there’s plenty of foundational myths believed by people all over the world and yes, many of them contain a germ of truth. [Note to Alex: this is a facet of Justin Martyr’s Logos Spermatikos theory.]

    But here’s the big difference: Christianity is true. The prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Christianity is a revealed religion and the revelations come from God Himself.

    The others are making do with scraps of remembered history. Christians do not have to sift through volumes of ancient mythologies to figure out what’s likely and what’s unlikely, we have the revealed truth, given to us by God Himself through His prophets and apostles.

  84. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – I am interested how these cold hard facts you mention explain that there was absolutely no worldwide flood and that their was no person Noah who survived all other people.

    Not scientific speculation, not theories of other things – but the cold hard facts you mentioned. The colder and harder the better. I bet you cannot come up with a single cold or hard FACT.

  85. Alex says:

    X, I kind of agree with some of that….but I don’t think the “prophets” and Christian leaders were any more infallible than today’s Christian prophets and leaders.

  86. Xenia says:

    Alex, that’s where a robust Tradition comes in handy.

  87. Alex says:

    There is some sort of weird belief that yesterday’s “Christians” heard perfectly from “God”…every jot and tittle…yet today’s Christians and Leaders do not.

    That is b/c we know our fellow Christians and our leaders today…and we see and know and understand that they are human and they don’t hear perfectly from God and are fallible human vessels…yet we somehow ascribe Super God Powers to those of yesterday.

    Very bizarre belief IMO and just not realistic or true.

  88. Josh The Baptist says:

    “There is some sort of weird belief that yesterday’s “Christians” heard perfectly from “God”…every jot and tittle…yet today’s Christians and Leaders do not.”

    I don’t think that is the belief. The belief is that God preserved His perfect word, through imperfect vessels.

  89. Alex says:

    X I would agree that a robust Tradition helps to keep the essentials essential as practiced by Early Christians…and your Sect is probably as true to the Early Christian Tradition as there is.

  90. Em says:

    it seems to me as i read that Alex makes valid points from a human perspective… but God isn’t human and, as we consider more and more of what man knows – or thinks he does ….. i want God to be something bigger than what i can define, let alone quantify

  91. Alex says:

    “I don’t think that is the belief. The belief is that God preserved His perfect word, through imperfect vessels.”

    Well, he didn’t do a very good job if it was meant to be “perfect”…you are forced to redefine perfect into a bunch of caveats and asterisks as evidenced by the Chicago Statement of Biblical Perfection/Inerrancy or whatever they call it…that reads more like a long attorney contract than it does a “simple” statement of perfection.

  92. Xenia says:

    I personally believe, Alex, that Christ instructed his Apostles in a unique way, that he gave them the basics and practices of the Christian faith and sent the Holy Spirit to help them call everything to remembrance. These Apostles “traditioned” (that’s what “handed down” means, despite the corrupted NIV translation) this teaching to those who came after, and so on and so forth, and thus the deposit of faith was kept secure to this very day. This is the Tradition of the Church. Anyone who comes up with something novel has departed from the Tradition. This would include modern preachers who teach heterodox doctrines.

  93. Josh The Baptist says:

    So you choose to believe that the Bible is not the perfect Word of God. I obviously disagree.

  94. Alex says:

    X, I agree that the Apostles were probably truly special and “specially anointed” if they did real miracles that we don’t see today or at anytime since.

    I don’t know that Paul’s opinions were equal to God…I don’t put Paul in the Trinity as part of the Godhead….but I think he was probably closer to hearing God than say the Pope or Chuck Smith or John Calvin…but still imperfect.

  95. Alex says:

    I will change my opinion if the Pope or Mark Driscoll or Brodersen or Dreadly or someone starts walking on water, turning water into wine or legitimately healing masses of sick, diseased and injured people or turning a few loaves into feeding 5,000 etc.

    Hasn’t happened since if it was true…and even so, dudes like Peter, Paul and James had very strong differences of opinion and all thought they heard special from God…but they were not “God” and were mere humans.

  96. Alex says:

    Reading Jesus, Peter, Paul and James is a bit like reading the competing angles and opinions of the various major Sects of Christianity today.

    They don’t nearly dove-tail…which is the reason why there are 9,000 to 30,000 different Christian Sects.

  97. Steve Wright says:

    Makes sense to me that all the genetic info needed for the incredible diversity found among human beings was placed in the first human being. In fact, it is safe to guess some of it was lost at the Flood since only one family survived.

    All the diversity for the three races (which is based more on skull formation and not something as trivial as skin color – go to India and you will find Indians as white as me or as black as your average Nigerian) would have been found in the three families and after Babel the separation that took place (not to mention the dividing of the continents due to the melting of the ice age after the flood would cause the distinctions to develop over the generations.

    Better sense than all the genetic info came here on an asteroid from outer space or whatever the explanation of the day is….

    As to the Flood, the fossil evidence is overwhelming, worldwide, and as Peter said, man is without excuse to deny it.

  98. Alex says:

    If you read only Jesus and Peter, you are likely to be a Messianic or a Liberal Christian.

    If you lean heavily on Paul…you are likely to be Reformed, Lutheran or Fundamentalist Evangelical conservative…though the Fundamentalist Conservatives have such a sketchy theological system they really pick and choose from a variety.

    If you lean heavily on James and Peter…you are likely Roman Catholic or EO.

  99. Alex says:

    All my opinions and observations and meant to discuss not to offend. Gonna give up the mic and get some work done. Thanks friends.

  100. Steve Wright says:

    You are forced to assume that Noah’s small family was made up the Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid genetic groups of Homo Sapien and were extremely careful not to have sex with one of the other races of human…so those separate races could repopulate and remain a separate race.
    —————————————————
    Stuff like this, especially his conclusion drawn from interracial sex, speaks volumes that Alex’s self-view on science might be a tad inflated too. 🙂

    Unless it is an Idaho, separatist, gun and gold holding thing 🙂

  101. Xenia says:

    Alex, when I was a Baptist and later a Calvary Chapelite I was always bothered that we seemed to concentrate more on the writings of Paul than we did on the sayings of Christ. Every word and thought of Paul’s was explained in excruciating detail and spun out for weeks, if not years. Yet when we got to the sayings of Jesus, which can be very difficult, it was often given short shrift. The sayings of Jesus were often explained away by a saying of Paul.

    I believe both are true, of course.

  102. Jim says:

    Back to the OP, I completely missed this “big story”. Nothing on the gun forums, or on anarcho capitalist/libertarian sites. It must have been Facebook driven, which is one of many reasons I don’t fb.

  103. Jim says:

    Ok… Found it some sites that sane people don’t read…

  104. Xenia says:

    I was thinking. For churches that follow a liturgical calendar which follows the life of Christ, (Annunciation, Transfiguration and so forth) the events in His life are emphasized more than the deeds of St. Paul. The calendar follows the life of Christ, not the life of St. Paul.

  105. Michael says:

    Jim,

    Fox had it, the Blaze had it, the Washington Times had it…it was pretty well spread out, though more so in conservative media.

  106. Linda Pappas says:

    Steve Wright

    “I’m pretty sure your Mormon influence about ancient North American history is showing here….which I am also pretty sure that ‘science” has thoroughly debunked.”

    You are absolutely correct on this. I read the letter received by Dr. Walter Martin from the Smithsonium Institute, whom the Mormons referenced as proof to this claim. You can get a copy of it through CRl. It states that there is no evidence to what the Mormons would like people to believe. Mormons also state that Jesus spent time in the United States.

    As for Noah and the 3 or 4 race or ethnic groups. Consider the following:

    1. Noah, being a descendent of Adam would still carry the genes, just as his wife, 3 sons and their wives. Not all came from the same lineage:

    2. Noah and his sons took wives which means the possibilities of a mixed race would have been likely.

    And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters: Gen 5-6

  107. ? says:

    Alex

    Do you also believes the Jonah narrative is a fable, even though Jesus refers to it?

  108. Linda Pappas says:

    “He begins from a position of faith, telling readers that DNA is “the divinely sculpted biological inheritance of the human family.”44 He suspects I place faith in science ahead of religious faith and believe that faith must be preceded by “scientific proof.” In fact, I believe that faith can flourish only when people are told the truth from whatever and all available sources. It makes no sense to insist on a belief in the unbelievable. There is an important difference here. In my case, for thirty years my religious orientation was accompanied by a distorted understanding of the true history of America’s past. Not only did I know little of the science that was applicable to this issue, I accepted without question the widespread urban legends in the church, one being that BYU scholars had found archaeological evidence in Mesoamerica that supported the Book of Mormon, another being that the Smithsonian Institution had used the Book of Mormon as a guide in some of their research. Scientific truth exposed my faith in a book that has no historical connection with the ancestors of the Polynesians or Native Americans. In the final analysis, this really has very little or nothing to do with the larger question of religious faith and much to do with conservatism, literalism and theological calcification.”

    http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2012/05/apologetic-response-to-losing-lost.html

  109. Linda Pappas says:

    ‘The Smithsonian Institute in Washington states:

    “There is no correspondence whatever between archaeological sites and cultures as revealed by scientific investigations, and as recorded in the Book of Mormon … Thus far no iron, steel, brass, gold and silver coins, metal, swords, breastplates, arm shields, armour, horses and chariots, or silk have ever been found in pre-colonial archaeological sites.” Kingdom of the Cults, W. Martin, p.162.’

    cited about 3/4 of the way down, but article have other information that also disputes the claims that Mormon have put forth.

    http://www.ukapologetics.net/errorsofmormonism.htm

  110. Mark says:

    Good to know the truth…

  111. The Dude says:

    ISIS doesn’t need to set up a camp in Mexico because they have a sympathetic Muslim population already inside the United States.

  112. Linda Pappas says:

    This might be a bit naïve on my part, but couldn’t the presence of Isis in Mexico be verified by using Unarmed Drones. I mean, I would think that our government and those on the borders (civil and government) would do what was necessary to find out for certain.

    Word does get around and although it may be gossip, there is, for the most part a bit a truth. And where there is smoke, there is fire. Understand what Michael is saying about the Cartel keeping things manageable for their own agendas, but then again, I would assume that part of their products might be weapons, drugs, and women. On the other hand, I am with Alex in wanting things to be either a “yes,” or a “no.”

  113. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The government knows yes or no to ISIS in Mexico – heck, they know what each f us had for breakfast this morning.

  114. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael,

    The StupidChristianPost.com site is also carrying the story today, along with a nearly-identical story they posted on Sept 2, 2014.

  115. Dave says:

    World history and humans just might go back a lot more than anyone knows.

    Of course some “learned Bible teachers have said, “It is best to be silent where the bible is silent.”

    That would leave out a host of things such as my ipad, my cell phone, my Mac, flying in Jets etc…

    Still the gap theory is an interesting one to think about none the less.

    http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2015/04/wednesday-wack-washery.html

  116. Michael says:

    Dan,

    It’s suited for their market.

    Linda,

    There are active drones in the area and a Border Patrol guy about every 15 feet.
    The place they claim has the camp sits right on the highway and you stare right into it when you drive by.
    Binoculars would be cheaper and as effective.

  117. Em says:

    i would think that any ISIS activity in Mexico would be (probably is) transient as Mexico isn’t a country that ignores ‘outsiders’ and there would be no sympathy to their cause down there … it seems to me …

    my late husband, who was smarter than me (mostly) thought that a world-wide flood wasn’t logical… for my part, who says that the topography was then what we now know? – who says ‘mountains didn’t rise up and valleys sink down’ in cataclysmic upheaval as the fountains of the deep broke up? … those tectonic plates make me nervous anyway 🙂

  118. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael,

    I posted a comment (yeah, I know, why get involved in the cesspool that is the comments section on StupidChristianPost.com) under the story with information on how to find the KVIA story. I dare not go back there because I know the drones and trolls who fester on that site will attack me. Just wanted to get the truth out there!

  119. Linda Pappas says:

    Thanks Michael,

    Have driven cross country passing through El Paso a number of times. I always look towards Mexico and think about their plight while taking in the stark contrast on both side of the border. At the same time, I think how some can have everything yet nothing and others can have nothing, yet everything.

  120. Michael says:

    Linda,

    As you approach New Mexico from the east, the part of Juarez you’re staring at is Anapra.

  121. Michael says:

    Dan,

    Miraculously, that was a pretty good article except for the click bait title.

    “It’s entirely based on anonymous sources, so it is impossible to assess the credibility of their sources, but [Judicial Watch] has a pretty poor record with respect to claims of ISIS’ infiltration into the United States previously,” Gartenstein said. “Judicial Watch, for example, [previously] pushed the idea that you had a large number of ISIS fighters who were arrested at the border trying to enter the country. We know for a fact, at this point, that is not true.”

    Gartenstein-Ross added that he has not heard of any actual evidence that ISIS has established a presence near Ciudad Juarez and added that it wouldn’t make sense for the cartel and “coyotes” to want to help ISIS infiltrate the U.S.

    “This training camp in Juarez, I have seen no evidence of it,” Gartenstein-Ross asserted. “In general, the incentives of the cartels and other organizations, like the coyotes, is in the opposite direction of trying to align with ISIS. These guys are profit centered. They are bad guys, but they are bad guys who are out to make a profit. There is nothing that can jeopardize their profits more than smuggling a bunch of ISIS fighters into the United States. That would be extraordinarily disruptive to their entire business model.”

    This…is exactly what I tried to tell everyone this morning.

    What I don’t understand…is why people want to believe these stories no matter the evidence to the contrary.

  122. Dave says:

    Really Good job Dan on your SCP comment posting.

    I was blown away by the Scientology ad under the article.

    There has been a lot of interest in the activities of the Church of Scientology recently, especially since the release of Alex Gibney’s documentary Going Clear.

    A petition against tax-exempt status for Scientology has been started on the U.S. White House petition website.

    If it receives more than 100,000 signatures, it will qualify for an official White House response.

    Has the time come for Scientology go “clear?”
    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-scientologys-tax-exempt-status

  123. Jim says:

    Probably a planted story by those who benefit from boogeymen.

  124. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael (125), probably because it reinforces their views/biases/fears.

    Dave (126), funny, in that I have contacted them before about the kind of adds that pop up around their website. There is one that occasionally pops up that talks about “open marriages” among Hollywood celebrities. Actually not funny, but sad that these adds run on a supposed Christian website.

  125. Seraphim says:

    To Alex:

    You asked the following Question:

    Question for my literal-bible fundamentalist friends…how did a family of Hebrews from one very specific segment of homo sapien…get on a big boat…with all other people’s wiped out and killed in the “world wide” flood…reset homo sapien with Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid?

    My response:

    Modern Genetics actually show that all modern populations come from a small founder population of humans. (known as a bottleneck).

    So yes it is possible that all the people on the Planet Earth came from a small set of people (the Sons of Noah). Noah himself was not a “hebrew”, however the nation of “isreal” did come from the lineage of Shem.

    There is lots of research out there, I am not going to bother to link it all. The populations with the greatest amount of genetic diversity are located in Eastern Africa. Early you stated that science has discovered three major groups of people: Mongol, Caucasion, Negroid. Please note that is an antqiuated term invented in the late 19th century.

    Those terms simply describe skull structure, and phenotype, and don’t necessarily align with genetic lineage. For instance Ethiopians are technically Caucasian, but so are Swedes, and Germans. I think you sound a bit confused about the science.

    In conclusion. A small founder population (maybe a few thousand people), are the ancestors of all known people living on planet Earth.

    That is my two cents.

  126. Anne says:

    Thank you for sharing your two cents with us Seraphim and welcome!

  127. Charles says:

    IF it is on Infowars it must be true, Alex Jones reports the most up to date non-mainstream stories.

    http://www.infowars.com/reporters-infiltrate-cartel-run-border-town-in-search-of-isis-camp/

  128. Xenia says:

    Thank you Seraphim and I echo Anne’s welcome!

  129. Michael says:

    Charles,

    I watched the video and it highlights what frustrates me.
    That “mosque” they filmed wasn’t a mosque, it was a narco home.
    The narcos love building elaborate homes that look like something out of the Arabian Nights…they’re all over Mexico.
    So much for research or any grip on commonly known facts…

  130. Xenia says:

    However, Michael, many Mexicans are converts to Islam.

    In my own little town there is a group of Muslim Mexicans. They own a grocery store in my neighborhood. So you can never tell; it might just be a “home” mosque.

    I am not saying who is right or who is wrong in this story because I have no idea.

  131. Em says:

    #134 i didn’t know that… i can understand the macho-male being drawn in, but i cannot understand any female putting herself and any children in such jeopardy… madness

  132. Alex says:

    Ironic that Islam and Christianity have a much easier time “converting” folks in very poor, very uneducated areas like Africa and even Mexico.

  133. Bob says:

    It is common knowledge amongst science that all modern humans have a single genetic mother, “eve.”

    The term Hebrew is used, not to define race but location in the Bible. It was first used to describe Abraham with the imagery that he came from across the river. It is a reference to his Mesopotamian origin. Hebrew was then used as a derogatory description of Joseph, again a man from the land across the river, in this case not the Nile area.

  134. Linda Pappas says:

    Here’s a thought on genetics diversification. That is mutations.

    Is it possible that when God created Adam from the earth, then took from his side a rib to create Eve, that a mutation was set into place. And as the early descendants copulated with one another, being so close in family, that is, in today’s term, considered to be incestuous, is it possible that this is where the skeleton, hair, eyes, and other body parts took on other appearance and forms, depending upon the dominant and recessive genes at work upon conception.

    Sociologically, we know that like tends to gravitate towards its own. So in this, is it possible that people eventually found themselves gravitating more to what looked more like themselves, rather than people who didn’t. Thus what might have been recessive at one time became more dominant within keeping in the group they have created among themselves.

    Isn’t it possible that God created Adam and Eve with this whole genetic pool intentionally to provide diversity among the human race. Just as He did when he create other kinds of plants and animals. But did so in such a manner that the kinds are kept within their own genetic compositions, so to speak.

  135. Alex says:

    The Tower of Babel mythology which occurs after the Noah Flood mythology is also very telling that the OT Hebrew is largely Lore.

    The scientific and archeological tangible evidence we have today does not support it in the least.

    The Tower of Babel mythology asserts that mankind, now re-emerging post-flood, spoke one language and consolidated in one region on the planet.

    The biblical timeline for this is very specific due to genealogies with dates in the bible. This puts the Tower of Babel at 2242 BC.

    This is extremely problematic. There is zero evidence that there was a civilization of mankind speaking the same language congregated around this area of the planet in 2200 BC…

    …there is, however, an extremely LARGE amount of evidence of humans speaking much different languages in various parts of the planet during this same time period.

    The Tower of Babel mythology is not compatible with archeology, written human history or logic/reason.

  136. Alex says:

    According to conservative evangelical Answers In Genesis own articles, here is a timeline of biblical events according to them:

    Creation 4004 B.C.
    Global Flood 2348 B.C.
    Tower of Babel 2242 B.C.
    Call of Abraham 1921 B.C.
    Time of the Judges (Moses was first) 1491 B.C. (God appeared to Moses in the burning bush)
    Time of the Kings (Saul was the first) 1095 B.C.
    Split Kingdom 975 B.C.
    Christ Was Born 5 B.C.

    The major problem is that we have Recorded Human History from the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Chinese and others….and datable evidence of the Vikings and others that predate and are contemporary with these biblical events.

    These Recorded Cultures with Languages etc predate the flood and post-date the flood and pre-date the Tower of Babel and post-date it.

    This absolutely shows the timelines presented by AIG to be false. You cannot have a Culture that predates the Tower of Babel…then wiped out by a supposed flood…the post-dates the Tower of Babel with the same languages they had before the flood and the Tower mythologies.

  137. Alex says:

    I know that many base their “salvation” on the bible having to be 100% correct and infallible…but it just isn’t true.

    And, your salvation does not depend on it.

  138. Alex says:

    If you are curious in verifying the truth of this…

    Look into Ancient Egypt and Egypt’s recorded human history.

    This is key b/c even the OT Hebrew lore references Egypt.

    Egyptian writing predates the Tower of Babel and post-dates the Tower of Babel.

    No way around that fact.

  139. Alex says:

    Ancient Egyptian also predates and post-dates the Flood mythology. Tons of tangible evidence of such. No way around it.

  140. Anne says:

    Alex – I agree. I think you can keep the baby (Jesus) without alot of the bathwater (biblioidolatry, theological disagreements, etc)
    At least part of me hopes so! 😉

  141. Alex says:

    Anne, agreed.

    I think “God” becomes a function for most evangelicals of having to defend the bible as inerrant, infallible, a perfect science book etc….as part of “God”…when it is just a collection of ancient texts that contain some history, some truths, a lot of lore and all filtered through fallible imperfect humans who are incapable of getting everything “100% correct!”

    It’s just a fool’s errand.

  142. Alex says:

    This link is a very simple and helpful visual tool and is backed by an overwhelming amount of archeological evidence to support its documentation of the histories and dates of the particular cultures/peoples:

    http://palaeos.com/history/history.html

  143. Alex says:

    That timeline and many others that agree with it based on what we tangibly know from the archeological record…are partly why I hold the opinion that the Genesis account is the Hebrew attempt at explaining their history and how the world came to be etc.

    Adam and Eve represent, metaphorically and maybe literally, the first “intelligent” humans in the Hebrew lineage.

    The events like the Great Flood were co-opted from other cultures that had Flood stories, the Tower of Babel is very similar to Lore in other cultures as well.

    The Hebrews were not the latest on the scene…but they were late compared to other cultures/peoples in Recorded History…as such they were influenced by those other Groups (Egyptians, Sumerians/Babylonians, etc) in their Lore and explanation of existence and life and the planet etc.

    You can see the Hebrew lineage and History in comparison to the other known and established Cultures and People Groups and civilizations.

    The “bible” and Genesis is understandably Hebrew-centric…and when it says “World” and “Creation” it is in the context of the Hebrews…not the rest of the folks already on the planet that were walking and talking and breathing air before the bible was retold and even written.

    These opinions are based on facts that you can find and review for yourself. Tons of evidence in the historical and archeological record. It isn’t some grand conspiracy, it is just the troof.

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